aside: does anyone know what “Ah Cha” means?)

In Hong Kong, Indians are sometimes referred as "Ah Cha", "Bambayya", "Indus" etc.

I am surprised though, stereotype of Hong Kong desis is they are all tailors and make good suits. (tons of Sindhi bhais running suit shops)

Every other star hotel has 7 Ft Sikh bhais at the doors.

Many money exchangers are also desis (+Pakistanis)

On a negative note, Hong Kong is one of the few regions which does not require visa for Indians to enter - so you get lot of scums as well - illegal immigrant villagers type. Whose ultimate destination is Australia, Canada, US. These guys spend months at Hong Kong while working on fake documents, get drunk and create scenes.

I have had a little exposure to the Hong Kong people, thanks to frequent business trips lasting a decade, and I found them very similar to Indians in India. Political correctness is definitely not their strong suit. They believe in fate, destiny and the fact that society confers a status on you that you must quietly accept. Very eastern, though sad.

Ah-cha...could it be "accha"? That's one Hindi word a lot of folks (esp in the Middle East) seem to know from their limited contact with desis.

Between this and discussion of South Asians and Arabs in the Gulf, I'm getting depressed...you'd think that all those nice ethnically and nationally diverse entrepots would produce tolerant cosmopolitanism, not this sort of nonsense.

Hey..nice picture.. and the story then is quite a contrast haan? Waise wouldnt it be cool to do a similar test with say primary school kids in India.. ? in some metropolis and then in some village !

nice photo..

you'd think that all those nice ethnically and nationally diverse entrepots would produce tolerant cosmopolitanism, not this sort of nonsense

This is one of the mistakes that well-intentioned people make - that an ethnically diverse society must automatically mean it is tolerant. In many cases, tolerance comes about not through genuinely believing that all groups should be treated equally, but through minimal contact. The example I like to use is Minnesota - a state that has a reputation for being liberal, progressive. So, when it came time to settle Hmong and Somali refugees - many were sent there, where they were welcomed with open arms by the locals. But recently, there has been a bit of refugee fatigue setting in, and Minnesotans are starting to voice opposition to accepting more such refugees.

The other example is views towards illegal immigrants. A suburban housewife may feel she is tolerant because she readily hires a Latino housekeeper or gardener, and treats them well. But how would she react if their children enrolled in her kids' school, and due to their lower economic status, required more funding and programs that would divert from her own kids' programs?

India's diversity makes a great sales pitch, but it's notion of tolerance is different from what we might consider tolerance in the West. There, tolerance is leaving other groups alone, but stereotyping them and not associating with others in social settings.

Japan is not diverse - but it is polite. Which means it will allow for some outsiders to partake in Japanese society, so long as you observe the rules. Russia is not diverse, and certainly not tolerant or polite.

A friend of mine who currently lives in Southern CA was considering moving to Houston - aside from the huge housing cost difference, he said he was impressed with the manners of the Houstonians he met, compared to that of the greater LA area. Both metro areas are diverse, but in his opinion, one had a better living environment and managed it's ethnic makeup better than the other.

The point is - the degree of ethnic heterogenity is a poor indicator of how tolerant a country is.

lot of scums as well - illegal immigrant villagers type

Real nice.

There, tolerance is leaving other groups alone, but stereotyping them and not associating with others in social settings.

KXB,

Howsoever, chaotic, often deeply flawed and imperfect India is, I think in India different religions interact more. People go to houses of people from different religion, and are definitely more aware of their customs and sensitivities. More because, it is more diverse in terms of religion, and is much older country. USA is ethnically 10000X more diverse but not religion wise, or even socially. Diversity here means going to Indian and Japanese resturant, and talkning about naan and drinking saki. Here, it is more clinical.

Walk into any store in India, typically they will have different religious symbols. Just last month I started noticing in India, trucks have misxed religious symbols (as owner might one religion, driver another, typcial client another). I took some pictures documenting them.

Within United States, strange as it may sound, I think Texas and Louisiana has more real mixing with different groups, than mid-west and coastal areas. In mid-west and even coastal areas, the interaction is more polite but minimal on day to day basis (except teenagers or college kids but when they move subhurbia they become like their parents very soon). In Louisiana, Vietnamese refugees from 70s have done very well for themselves inspite initial hinderances.

There's a sitcom from Singapore, that they broadcast on AZN called "Achar!" about a Desi guy (played by Jas Arora) who marries a Singapore girl, and the problems that they have with their in-laws.

Achar is the name of the character played by Jas Arora, but, could there be any connection?

I agree, 'ah cha' sounds like a phonetic transliteration of 'accha' which is a common feature across many north indian languages.

Negative Indian stereotypes aside, I must say that all the girls from HK that I've met in the US have been very very friendly to me ;)

the picture is superb... laughter, innocence... and makes you want to smile..

Children are beastly. Their prejudice is untempered by experience or sympathy.

From Quickseek

South Asians have been known as ah cha (阿差) by the locals. A proposed etymology is that some of them, mostly Sikhs from Punjab, were constables of Hong Kong Police Force in the early days. Use of the same character 差 in denoting 阿差 and 衙差 (law enforcement officer working in a yamen in imperial China) and confusion of the two phrases' distinct pronunciation, is suggested as a possible ground. This term is commonly regarded as derogatory, equivalent to Paki in a sense.

Kush,

I am not suggesting that India is a cauldron of ethnic discord – Indians’ familiarity and comfort with different religious practices is a good example of how India is more diverse than the predominately Judeo-Christian U.S. But this ethnic diversity can often hinder cooperation. Gurchuran Das, who is a big cheerleader of India’s economic reforms, still had to grudgingly admit that Indians need to become better team players. So many Indians are concerned with interacting with each other only on commonly accepted terms that it inhibits cooperation.

In NY – the Bengali Hindu community has distinguished itself from other South Asians in two distinct phases. In the 1980’s, the set up schools for teaching the Bengali language, and organizing Durga Puja and Saraswati Puja. That was when most Bengalis in NY were Indian and Hindu. But now, most Bengalis in NY are from Bangladesh. The most recent accomplishment of Bengali Hindus was to build a Kali Mandir on Long Island. They keep moving in a direction that will make them distinctive from the larger group, and possibly lessen the need to interact with those other groups.

In Chicago, Bengali Hindus are not as anxious to make themselves distinct, and most of their efforts at organizing schools or fundraising for a temple tend to fizzle out. OTOH, at weddings and parties, I’ve seen more social mingling and genuine friendships develop between Bengali Hindus and Bengali Muslims than I did in NY. There seems to be less pressure to stand out since the overall numbers are fewer than in NY. It seem to me that a bit less diversity allowed for more tolerance and acceptance.

I have not traveled much in the South, but Henry Louis Gates of Harvard argued that race relations in the South tended to be more “intimate” (not a synonym for sexual) while such relations in the North tended to be more formal. One of my old professors at Chicago, Gerry Rosenberg, gathered data showing that post Brown v. Board of Ed – that the South has done a better job of integrating schools than the North.

On the coasts – money seems to dictate who your friends are. A white guy living in Malibu is unlikely to have much problems with a black or Indian guy moving in next door, since they are both wealthy enough to live in Malibu. Among the reasons I don’t like going back to NY as much as I used to, is that so much of the conversation seems to revolve around money – who moved to what neighborhood, whose house appreciated quickest, etc. And this is among the American-born group, now in our 30s.

KXB wrote:

I think Texas and Louisiana has more real mixing with different groups, than mid-west and coastal areas.

A friend of mine who currently lives in Southern CA was considering moving to Houston - aside from the huge housing cost difference, he said he was impressed with the manners of the Houstonians he met

I have not traveled much in the South, but Henry Louis Gates of Harvard argued that race relations in the South tended to be more “intimate” (not a synonym for sexual) while such relations in the North tended to be more formal.

Enough of this confederate-love, dixie-kissing attitude. As an ex-Houstonian, I'd say you are vastly overestimating racial harmony in the south. Black-white tensions are strong enough to cut with a knife. Social race-mixing is limited. Residential areas are also self-segregated -- whiich is why Fort Bend county has so many Asians and Thw Woodlands has so few.

But that's just me -- I've lived there and didn't like it. Are there other SMers who, unlike KXB, have actually lived in the South?

KXB, are you living in Chicago currently?

I've lived there and didn't like it. Are there other SMers who, unlike KXB, have actually lived in the South?

10 years (7 in Louisiana, and 3 in Texas). At different places, Baton Rouge, Lafayette, Dallas, Houston, Austin, College Station.

And some comments from Bollywood's finest

"At the event, well known actor Hrithik Roshan made a passing comment about how he knew it was time to leave Shanghai and Hong Kong after six weeks of stunt training and go home when his eyes started "turning into little slits like the Chinese"

"The actress, Rimi Sen, said in an interview last week: "I play a sweet and beautiful girl in the film. The best thing that I like about the film is that though it has four heroes, I am the only heroine. Rohit Shetty is amazing as a director. He can make even a black African look pretty."

Enough of this confederate-love, dixie-kissing attitude. As an ex-Houstonian, I'd say you are vastly overestimating racial harmony in the south. Black-white tensions are strong enough to cut with a knife. Social race-mixing is limited. Residential areas are also self-segregated -- whiich is why Fort Bend county has so many Asians and Thw Woodlands has so few.

Ikram,

Interaction and harmony are not the same thing. You can have lots of interaction, and still not like those you are interacting with. The old notion that familiarity breeds contempt. As for Gates, all he was arguing that whites and blacks have historically had closer interactions in the South than in the North, and the more interactions you have, the more you increase the chance of possible dislike. Folks in Vermont may treat black people just swell, but how many black people are there in Vermont to begin with?

I am not arguing that the South has come to terms with its past. But given that more black people are moving back to the South, I would say the picture is more complicated than simply dismissing it as "confederate love"

60 Minutes reported on this three years ago:

Going Home to the South

A few excerpts:

"But now, millions of their children are finding out that their best chance of living the American Dream is in the South, in places like the suburbs around Charlotte, North Carolina; Orlando, Florida; Houston, Texas; and especially Atlanta, Georgia.

And ironically, while their parents and grandparents may have fought
for integration, many of them have chosen to live in all-black communities."

"Their white-collar jobs include financial consultant, school principal, Xerox executive and computer programmer. Plus, high-tech jobs are attracting blacks and whites to the South. But for blacks, it's coming back to their roots. Many who've moved South say they feel they've come home. And more than 3.5 million came home in the '90s - twice as many as came in the '80s. "

Indeed, interaction can often lead to friction between groups. For example, how are relations between Japanese and Swedes versus Japanese and Chinese? There has been little historical interaction between Sweden and Japan, but tremendous interaction between Japan and China. That interaction alone did not yield friendly relations.

Dasichist - yes

Russia is not diverse

it is. 10% of russian citizens are muslims. there is a lamaist temple in st. petersburg, thanks to the kalmyks, europe's only indigenous buddhist people (they are refugees from western mongolia pushed out by manchu pogroms in the 18th century, they have their own republic on the lower volga). much of the boyer elite was traditional non-slav, whether it be german or converted tatars.

I think in India different religions interact more

kush, in the USA as many as 30% of americans convert from one religion (denomination) to another in their lives. a conservative estimate is that 40% of american jews outmarry.

living in one of america's whitest states, i have visited the south many times. both kxb and ikram are right in their own way. easy to not be racist when there are no minorities (read: blacks) around, as is common here. there is more segregation and tension in the south, but the absolute number of interracial coupels in places like nashville is also striking (including for example white soldiers on leave with their black girlfriends).

And some comments from Bollywood's finest

Wow! One thing India hasn't developed is a sense of political correctness. People just mouth off what they will. There are so many jat jokes, sardar jokes, madrasi jokes and what have you.

Political Correctness is way overrated as a judge of character in today's world.

Regards,

Political Correctness is way overrated as a judge of character in today's world.

Yes. Kindness, however, is not.

the thing is, east asians saying brownz are ugly is karma. the main reason given is skin color, brownz be too kala....

"Some of them wrap their heads up. Some have a red dot in the forehead. They have big beards."

Hey, I resemble that remark! Well, not the red dot, but ...

Hey, I resemble that remark! Well, not the red dot, but ...

I totally thought of you while I was blockquoting it, too. ;)

i grew up in hk... to be honest, yes some elements of the local population can be passively racist against indians... just as they are against anyone brown, black, white or even mainland chinese. in fact, i would say that almost every expat community in hong kong (indians especially) view the locals with disdain in return. to be absolutely clear, hong kong is a very tolerant and peaceful society, but its obsession with making money causes some some people to develop some really funny attitudes towards each other.

Political Correctness is way overrated as a judge of character in today's world.

Its no judge of character, it constrains what can and can't be said in public discourse.

the thing is, east asians saying brownz are ugly is karma. the main reason given is skin color, brownz be too kala....

Lee Kuan Yew - former Singapore leader- drained his swimming pool after an Indian diplomat took a dip in it.

How do Indians/Indian-Americans feel towards East Asians/East-Asian Americans?

We think they should TOP SOM BONG.

Im kidding of course, Im actually curious if any east asian stand up comedians have done jokes about south asians, maybe now all of them will.

How do Indians/Indian-Americans feel towards East Asians/East-Asian Americans?

depends on whether itz ladies or dudes :)

KXB, shoot me an email sometime, I'd be interested in talking with you.

i remember reading a story some years ago about a poor malaysian indian woman who married a Brit, moved to the UK and quickly became a lawyer with a prestigious firm. while on business/holiday in HK she became ill and was hospitalized. she later died in hospital. her husband, with help from hk rights groups sued and the court ruled she died as a result of being neglected by hospital staff due to racism, apathy and being seen as less worthy of attention than other patients. she was basically left in her corner to die. of course this sort of thing happens in many countries, either directly (racism) or indirectly (apathy and neglect), in india and even in the u.s. it just came to mind because it was such a sad story and a sad end to a very promising life.

Thanks for the quick replies. Woo!(not my last name)

But seriously there definitely is prejudice towards Indians in the East-Asian community as the blog pointed out. But there is, also, a sense of kinship that East Asian-Americans feel towards Indian-Americans. I'm going to generalize alot here, but both groups pretty much take the same classes in high school, go to the same decent universities, and then get work in pretty good places. Surprisingly, though, I haven't noticed much interaction between Indians and East-Asians in the places I've lived (NYC, ne NJ, Boston).

Surprisingly, though, I haven't noticed much interaction between Indians and East-Asians in the places I've lived (NYC, ne NJ, Boston).

ITA and it is quite a contrast to my experiences in the Bay Area or even at Davis, where all of my roommates my final year were Asian American (though no one else in the apartment was South Asian).

I'm going to generalize alot here, but both groups pretty much take the same classes in high school, go to the same decent universities, and then get work in pretty good places.

the association to some extent negative, that is, outside perception as "eastern" or "oriental." the main exception is buddhism, but only a minority of american east asians are buddhist anyway (and obvious few brownz are buddhist, but it does have an affinity with hinduism because of its indian origins). i know brownz were a little bit of the outsiders at asian pacific student union meetings, and some of my east asian friendz said that as a brown dude i didn't deal with the same sort of rejection based on race when it came to hittin' the pale flesh :)

anyway, i think affinity is a direction function of americanization. my parents find whites less objectionable than east asians usually, despite shared "values."

also, there are some cultural metrics where browns and east asians are civilizational antipodes. i am thinking in particular in regard to animals and how to treat them. east asians are liberal regarding consumption animal flesh, while brownz, even muslim ones in my experience, tend to be picky about what they eat (re: muslims, my exp. is that brown muslims interpret 'halal' more narrowly than arab or turkish muslims, i've seen this at mosque).

Dae... come out to Cali and we'll kick it at the chaat house, soju bar, denny's, or anywhere in between ... it's all love on the left side.

my parents find whites less objectionable than east asians usually, despite shared "values."

Meanwhile, my parents surprised me a few weeks ago by expressing how much they liked that my little sister's bf was a Buddhist of Japanese descent. "He has more in common with us than a White boy would!" etc.

my parents find whites less objectionable than east asians usually, despite shared "values."

Beacuse there is a racial pecking order in Amreeka. The list might differs a little bit from person to person.

Regarding Buddhism and Confucianism, it deeply ingrained in East Asian society even if someone is Agnostic, Christian, etc. Same for Asian Americans. There is a saying in Japan (I am paraphrasing, orginal words might be different): You are born as a Shinto, you marry as a Christian, and you die as a Buddhist

Meanwhile, my parents surprised me a few weeks ago by expressing how much they liked that my little sister's bf was a Buddhist of Japanese descent. "He has more in common with us than a White boy would!" etc.

My parents the same. They seemed to "trust" Asian kids more when considered as playmates too.

with my parents it might be a racial thing. christians are "cleaner" than non-christians (even though a majority of asian americans are christian).

Regarding Buddhism and Confucianism, it deeply ingrained in East Asian society

yes. east asian society. not necessarily true with americans (asian americans born & raised fit american psychological profiles re: individualism, etc.).

p.s. i brought up buddhism btw because that is a link that asian american scholars explicitly point to to rebutt the charge that "asian american" identity that includes south asians is artificially constructed.

In NY – the Bengali Hindu community has distinguished itself from other South Asians in two distinct phases. In the 1980’s, the set up schools for teaching the Bengali language, and organizing Durga Puja and Saraswati Puja. That was when most Bengalis in NY were Indian and Hindu. But now, most Bengalis in NY are from Bangladesh. The most recent accomplishment of Bengali Hindus was to build a Kali Mandir on Long Island. They keep moving in a direction that will make them distinctive from the larger group, and possibly lessen the need to interact with those other groups.

This is generally okay as a description, but I think it might be a little off. Bangali Hindus started coming to New York in the 1960s and 1970s and were organizing pujas and cultural associations as early as the early 1970s and began dividing among themselves fairly early (there have been separate pujas in new jersey, queens, and nassau county, with corresponding associations for as long as i can remmeber and i'm 28); they also started infighting so from the original queens puja committee (east coast durga puja) there are a few separate ones now. This is probably among the reasons why it took them 30 years to build a kali mandir :)

I don't, however, see in what ways we make ourselves more or less distinct than any other groups do--though that may be the case--I don't know. I do know among the 1st gen, there are sindhi associations, tamil associations, Indian associations, etc.--the puja i go to is in a building called "gujarati samaj" :)

also, a pedantic note, the extent of buddhism's impact on society varies from culture to culture in east asia. the tokugawa stipulated japanese had to register with a buddhist temple. the choson dynasty in korea banished buddhist temples to the hills.

p.s. i brought up buddhism btw because that is a link that asian american scholars explicitly point to to rebutt the charge that "asian american" identity that includes south asians is artificially constructed.

It would help if some Asian Americans were actually Buddhist (yes there are a few Thais and others). BTW I think there are large numbers of Evangelical Christians among Asian-Americans. Do you know if this is true? There was a story a few years ago about a Christian revival among Harvard students, but as far as I could tell, the churches pictured in the story were filled with mostly Asians.

Children are beastly. Their prejudice is untempered by experience or sympathy.

Heh, Heh. I always knew Mr K was just MoorNam wearing a che guevara t-shirt.

BTW I think there are large numbers of Evangelical Christians among Asian-Americans. Do you know if this is true?

yes. asian americans are far more likely to be non-christian now than 10 years ago. the growth of evangelicals is because growth is easy from a small base.

I wish my 14-year old daughter was a little more like her friend Wendy Lee - a dozen awards every semester, taking high grade math tests just for sport, not having sleepovers and certainly not having any spare time for IM or, god forbid, myspace. But I will say about my daughter what Henry Fonda said about Jane in one of his Academy night speeches, "Shut up, she is perfect."

When you think about Indians, what comes to your mind?
Basmaati queens, perhaps :-)

Here's an interesting article on evangelicalism in the Asian-American community at the academy. One of the astonishing tidbits it mentions is that about 98% of a Christian gathering at Cal was Asian-American. Nationwide it seems that alot of Asian-Americans become attracted to Christianity in college.

One of the astonishing tidbits it mentions is that about 98% of a Christian gathering at Cal was Asian-American.

cal is nearly 50% asian american. so yes, shocking, but not that shocking :)

Nationwide it seems that alot of Asian-Americans become attracted to Christianity in college.

look at the american religious identification survey and you will see asian teens are rather unaffiliated. this sort has a large % that are a good yield for potential missionaries.

Do Asian Christians have the self righteousness it takes to go out and convert others? Just can't envision Chinese missionaries.

Do Asian Christians have the self righteousness it takes to go out and convert others? Just can't envision Chinese missionaries.

south korea is the number #2 missionary sending country after the USA. they've gotten into trouble in places like iraq because of attempts to convert muslims. conversion in china is almost totally through on-the-ground proslyetizers. asian american xtians also have a somewhat obnoxious rep. among non-christians who are asian american.

Dae... come out to Cali and we'll kick it at the chaat house, soju bar, denny's, or anywhere in between ... it's all love on the left side.

Denny's? I never knew it was such a popular destination for Cali Koreans.

I guess it's kind of like the west coast White Castle, no?

razib the atheist, you are so correct. I forgot about that Moon guy from Korea. I am not sure if he was a proslyetizer in the true sense of the word, but he was pretty aggressive in his religiosity. You seem to be quite knowledgeable about religion. What's your explanation for Hindus not being very successful at converting others- not in the recent times when India was a colonized country but in the olden days when Hinduism had the muscles to flex? There is always the odd Bali, but come on - a religion of a few hundred million even in the olden days surely could have done better.

What's your explanation for Hindus not being very successful at converting others- not in the recent times when India was a colonized country but in the olden days when Hinduism had the muscles to flex? There is always the odd Bali, but come on - a religion of a few hundred million even in the olden days surely could have done better.

one could argue that buddhism respresents the aspects of hinduism which can be extracted from an indian substrate and universalized. and many of the kingdoms of southeast asia were hindu before they were buddhist, e.g., the khmer kingdoms or mahajapit in java.

In other words, Hindus didn't have to go to foreign lands to convert. They did the conversion at home and just shipped them out. I mean the Buddhists.

In other words, Hindus didn't have to go to foreign lands to convert. They did the conversion at home and just shipped them out. I mean the Buddhists.

i believe southeast asia was converted mostly via ceylon. east asia via afghanistan and the tarim basin. itz complicated :)

buddhism died in the subcontinent proper with the arrival of islam and that religion's success in the last redoubts of buddhism, though there are still a small community of indigenous bengali speaking buddhists, called bauras or something i believe. that is, it is a mahayana community with a straight line lineage back to the pala times..

p.s. it can be argued that hindusim as a religion in the western sense only arose with the rise to power and numbers of an unassimilable anti-hindu religious element. muslims.

bengali buddhists, barua. (it seems they are therevada, which suggests burmese influence to me)

Ahn-young haseyo.

those kids are so god damn happy. it's a good thing.

KXB: I live in Houston, and have grown up here. People are generally much nicer period in the South than in NYC. There is an unfair stereotype that there are just a bunch of hicks here. Racism is VERY, VERY prevalent in so-called more international cities like NYC.

Case in point: my uncle in Saddle River, NJ (just outside NYC) wants to get together with other, well heeled and connected mind you, Hindus, to build a temple. There is already several Synagogues and Church's in the area. The local residents are not giving them approval to build there. In Stafford, a small town outside Houston, the Swami Naryan's built a beautiful 14 million dollar temple, and had 25,000 people attend, I witnessed parts of it, and there was a major event. The mayor called the temple "the pride of Stafford." There are racist attacks in the East coast all the time. Italians Americans are some of the most racist I have heard in the East coast (Even though a lot of them are darker than a lot of Indians!).

Ikram: I'm from Sugar Land, very desi place obviously. But when you talk of Woodlands, I say give Woodlands another 5 years, you'll see it turn brown too. I know someone, Pakistani family who want to move from Sugar Land to Woodlands because they said, "Bad crowd is coming to this area.? Im not sure if they didnt like the fact that there are so many desis here, or blacks or what.

The sense of community amongs the Indians is also better down here. In the East coast, I have seen bougeousis Indians are much colder, and more formal. I don't get it....

Yes, yes...the Northeast is full of mean people. Call the wah-mbulance already.

I've lived in Dallas, right by Highland Park/SMU. I can totally see my quondam neighbors welcoming a temple built by and for people whose souls they were praying for, let's forget that they were so sure those unsaved Hindoos were going straight to hell. There was plenty of racism; I always said that I thought it was much worse because of the sugarcoating they gave that shit. I'll take bigotry in front of my back, NYmotherfuckingCity-ishtyle any day, thanks.

There's good and bad everywhere. Dallas is no paradise and Houston ain't magically delicious either.

People are generally much nicer period in the South than in NYC

Texas is *not* the South. Or so I have been told many many many times.

Dallas is no paradise and Houston ain't magically delicious either.

But Austin is...

But Austin is...

Agreed. Notice how I didn't include it in the tirade? It's like a little bit of San Francisco, in the state where you'd least expect it. :) That and I love the Hula Hut sum'n shameless. ;)

And yeah, I don't think of Texas as classically "Southern", either. Texas is...Texas.

Am I the only guy who has parents that refer to all east-asians as "chinese"

Am I the only guy who has parents that refer to all east-asians as "chinese"

no. If you correct them though they will do it more just to piss you off.

I'll take bigotry in front of my back, NYmotherfuckingCity-ishtyle any day, thanks.

Vurd.

Ikram: I'm from Sugar Land, very desi place obviously. But when you talk of Woodlands, I say give Woodlands another 5 years, you'll see it turn brown too.

Soon all of Houston will be Sepia. The wheels are in motion. Muhaha.

Uhh.. Texas is not the south? That is absolutely ridiculous. The culture is completely southern. And PLEASE don't compare Dallas to Houston, its a day and night difference. I've lived in Houston for 26 years, and I went through the entire school system here, frome pre-k to High School. I went to college in Austin. I think I can speak for Texas.

Anna, have you ever lived in Houston, or are you presuming that because its "just 4.5 hours away" that its the same place?

I've lived in Houston (and the US) for only a year now and even to my untrained eye, the place is completely unlike say Aiken, South Carolina (I'd always assumed that was just a big city/small town difference though). From what friends say I'd gathered they don't like Texas being grouped with the South either. Personally, I haven't experienced any racism here but that doesn't mean much because 95% of my interactions are limited to the Texas Medical Center.

Great picture by the way!

Sigh. Sometimes mac's auto-completion can be a pain. Could one of the administrators remove the link on my tag? Thanks.

I have to say that in the US, in Central PA, the thoughts about Indians are that they're terrorists or that everyone with a turban must be a muslim. In the Harrisburg area, people refer to any gas station or convenience store run by a sikh as a Haji-Mart, though I try to correct people on it, it's pretty ingrained. It's getting better, as more desi move to the Harrisburg area to work on State contracts (both computing and construction), but PA by nature is generally very segregated in that area. James Carville reportedly explained PA to Bill Clinton like this: "You have two of the most liberal cities in the US at either end, and Alabama in the middle".

I don't disagree with the characterization.

n the Harrisburg area, people refer to any gas station or convenience store run by a sikh as a Haji-Mart, though I try to correct people on it, it's pretty ingrained.

I've noticed that too about Pennsylvania. When you cross into New Jersey it becomes very different.
Razib: Thanks for the link.

The article is not surprising really.
Here is something for you all to ponder over. In my 10 years in the US, I was often subject to FOB jokes, jeers and sneers. Sometimes 2nd and 3rd generation Indian American kids can be crueler than White people or other races. I was lucky in that I never encountered a single case of racism from someone of a different race.
Making fun of FOBs is so institutionalized in Cali that I remember attending a skit done by Indian Americans at UC Berkeley where "The desi software engineer from San Jose" was lampooned.
How often have you heard about "aloo roti breath"? I am sure that the percentage of FOBs with bad breath is roughly similar to the percentage of other races.

I remember attending a skit done by Indian Americans at UC Berkeley

I blame Manish Vij. He was obviously the evil mastermind behind such shenanigans. We shall overlook the fact that he graduated from Cal well over a decade ago, because it is fun to blame him for crap Indus did. ;)

Making fun of FOBs is so institutionalized in Cali that I remember attending a skit done by Indian Americans at UC Berkeley where "The desi software engineer from San Jose" was lampooned.

Well, that's kinda there in every South Asian thing in every Univ in the US. Every generation of students who come in think they're coming up with the smartest new joke when they put that shit in their scripts. It does get old after a bit.

Anyway, don't let that bother you too much. Trust in God, but lock your car. So if you are a FOB, be yourself, but get rid of the head waddle and the extra hair and get some real exercise. Trust me, it works.

Anna, have you ever lived in Houston, or are you presuming that because its "just 4.5 hours away" that its the same place?

I agree, Houston is very different from 'Texas', whatever that implies to y'all. It's a very diverse city (50% latino, BTW), with a huge Chinatown, Vietnamese, Indian, Mid-Eastern and Korean areas. You guys need to seriously get your kundis down here at some point :-)

I've been to Houston. Several times. Half of my Mother's family lives there and since there's always a wedding or an engagement happening, I'm invited back. A LOT. In 1992, we almost moved there and I was forced to apply to Rice. After some Oscar-level theatrics ("You wouldn't let me go to Columbia, but you'll pay for fucking RICE?!") horrifying threats of haircuts (my hair was down to my knees, per my Father's wishes) and general mayhem (I believe my sister went on a hunger strike), we talked my Father (and my very relieved Mother) out of such lunacy.

I'm not a fan, but I'm not talking out of my ass, either, despite what some here would love to believe. Austin, Dallas, THEN Houston...and that says it all.

Im kidding of course, Im actually curious if any east asian stand up comedians have done jokes about south asians, maybe now all of them will.

Hmmm, haven't see it happen, but this guy and these guys are freakin hilarious.

("You wouldn't let me go to Columbia, but you'll pay for fucking RICE?!")

Ms. Anna,

If one gets admitted to Rice, then almost all the tuition and expenses are taken care of through grants, scholarships, and loans from Rice U. itself. Basically, your education is heavily subsidized, as per one's resources.

Hardly, anyone pays the real tuition @ Rice, unless you are a son/ daughter of an oil baron.

Rice U. is one of the best "deal"(according to Money Magazine and US News and World Report) since they have the richest endownment dedicated to undergraduate student financial needs - oil money from alum. Also, it is one of the toughest school to get in for undergrads. It also honors a strong legacy system.

You wouldn't let me go to Columbia, but you'll pay for fucking RICE?!"

Er...there might be a few Rice students here, just so you know. We do get onto SM.

Er...there might be a few Rice students here, just so you know. We do get onto SM.

How nice for us! I'm still not scared of you. :)

fuck texas :)

there is sum good sushi in houston though...and cajun food too....

I'm not a fan, but I'm not talking out of my ass, either, despite what some here would love to believe. Austin, Dallas, THEN Houston...and that says it all.

Ok. Now the champalls are off. As a person that has lived in every time zone (sometimes multiple times) and grew up on the West Coast (Bay Area) and grew to love the East Coast more, I got to come to the defense of Houston. The weather is hotter than hell but the people are nicer than anywhere I've lived. Austin is the best because it has lots of hills, Lake Travis, and places to go camping but Houston isn't too far behind. And as other people have mentioned Houston is NOT the south. In the next decade it will probably be one of the most cutting edge cities to live in also because the space race will be in full swing. And Rice students are cool too.

fuck texas :)

there is sum good sushi in houston though...and cajun food too....

They do have good sushi. In fact I've made it a birthday tradition to have sushi (followed by a train of Sake bombers) at the sushi joint underneath Angelica theater. That's how we will do a Texas meet-up :)

Remember the Alamo.

In the next decade it will probably be one of the most cutting edge cities to live in also because the space race will be in full swing.

Abhi dude, Houston is one and always has been of the most cutting edge cities.

Not only space technology, it is oil and gas capital of the world. Do you know how much profit BP made last quarter per minute. $55,000 dollars a minute. ExxonMobil will post their profits in a few days. Houston is where all the deals are made be it Gulf of Mexico or offshore west Africa.

I think Austin is an incredible high-tech city with great music scene. I think there is independent film making too. At the height of telecom boom, Dallas was the hub.

kush, like i said, fuck texas. let them be there own country if they are so c$$l :)

The Texas bashing reminds me of something.

A friend of mine moved from Houston to the bay area, her degree is from Texas A&M.

She says you would not believe the snippy things people said to her in her job interviews. Seems like San Franciscans feel a greater kinship with Ayman Zawahiri than folks from Texas.

Seems like San Franciscans feel a greater kinship with Ayman Zawahiri than folks from Texas.

Hmmm. Wonder...why...Texas...gets...bashed...

Anna:

Sorry to break it to you, but visiting Houston several times and having relatives here is quite different from someone like me who has lived here 26 straight years (minus 4 in Austin).

You write, "I've been to Houston. Several times. Half of my Mother's family lives there and since there's always a wedding or an engagement happening, I'm invited back. A LOT. In 1992, we almost moved there and I was forced to apply to Rice. After some Oscar-level theatrics ("You wouldn't let me go to Columbia, but you'll pay for fucking RICE?!") horrifying threats of haircuts (my hair was down to my knees, per my Father's wishes) and general mayhem (I believe my sister went on a hunger strike), we talked my Father (and my very relieved Mother) out of such lunacy.

I'm not a fan, but I'm not talking out of my ass, either, despite what some here would love to believe. Austin, Dallas, THEN Houston...and that says it all.

"

You're invited back? you've been here, what, 10 times, 20 times, get real. I live here, I have been to almost every nook and cranny of Houston, including hick areas. By and large, you'd be hard pressed to find some nicer people. Ever been to Richmond, outside Houston? People are so down to earth and nice there, regardless of your race. It was one of the first cities in the country to have a BLACK (*gasp*) mayor.

Seriously, you are not qualified to speak on Houston.

To the rest of the people here, defending Houston, like Abhi, I won't say thank you, as you are not doing me a favor, and my loyalty for Houston is only so much as my belief that it is a welcoming and hospitable city. No city is perfect, but I will say the desi community here is very strong. We have two pretty much (tho off and on) Monday through Sunday desi radio stations. Several Indian theaters. We are building an "India House" that will have a library on India, performance hall, activity center, etc. etc. We received a 500 THOUSAND DOLLAR grant from the City of Houston for this. They gave us a VERY prime location for our Mahatma Gandhi statue, to which cities followed Houston (like Atlanta). We have our own little India, mainly Hillcroft and now up and coming in Sugar Land. The mayor of Sugar Land goes to Indian American family's homes and private parties, weddings, etc. of community members. Click here for some pictures of the local events: http://www.indoamericanforum.org/photo-gallery.htm. We have many, many temples, mosques, and indian churches. We have a Pakistani councilman, a councilman married to an Indian woman, an Indian council man in Sugar Land, and various other south asians that hold political office in the greater Houston area.

Are some people racist? yes, of course, but by and large things are peaceful. We didn't have any Dotbusters like NJ had, even though we have a very large presence of Desis in certain areas (Alief, Sugar Land i.e. Fort Bend, Jersey Village). Knock on wood. There were a couple of incidents of harassment after 9/11 to a friend of a friend's turban wearing younger brother, who was in High School, but High School, kids are cruel, no matter if youre' in New Delhi or Houston (Hazing, anyone?? Can it get worse than some schools in India?). Another Sikh said he was driving and a redneck in a truck spit on his car and cussed him out. I've had one experience where a white, middle aged guy told me to go back to my country, once. Once in 26 years.

Even though I have lived in Austin, confined to one area, probably much like your situation in Dallas, I won't comment on Austin. Why? Because I have not been to North, North East, Northwest, South, Southeast, etc... I have not been to every part of Austin, nor do I have years of experience in Austin, so I won't comment. I will say this, from MY 4 years of experiences, it is a hospitable, and very beautiful (like Abhi said) city. Likewise, you cannot comment on Houston, and probably not even Dallas if you have been confined to only one area. (Though from a relative who moved from Plano to Houston, things are much "better" here in terms of race relations).

When I say Houston is the South, I think there is a difference in interpretation. It seems that many on here think of the "South" as a bad thing. As a label that conjures up thoughts of the Jim Crow laws, segregation, slavery, conservative southern democrats of yesteryear, conservative republicans of today, hicks, rednecks, etc. That is one side. But there is another side of the "South" that many probably don't realize. Southerner's, by and large, are hospitable, kind, talkative, and simple folk. For you Indians, think Punjabis. A co-worker of mine, who recently moved from New York City, complained that "Wherever I go, people talk to me too much. How are you doing? Where are you from? etc. etc...." She said, "I just want to be able to go somewhere and get my stuff done and get out of there." This is typical of the East Coast vs. Houston experience. But I, for one, think its a nice thing. So when I say Houston is definitely the South, it is, it is Southern in a good way.

By and large, you'd be hard pressed to find some nicer people.

yeah, you been to every nook & cranny of every city? how do you know houstonians are so nice in relative terms?

(yes, southerners are nicer than northerners, but also less competent, howz that a generalization for you?)

btw, do you south-brownz talk with that slow ass accent?

yes, southerners are nicer than northerners

Dude, aren't you from Oregon? Daz a village pretending to be a state.

Seriously, you are not qualified to speak on Houston.

And you're doing H-town no favors either with your tripe. Remind me to read that magnum opus the next time I can't sleep-- it'll do the trick faster than Ambien, that's for damned sure.

Also, REAL southerners (people from Mississippi, The Carolinas, Virginia) don't feel the same way you do; my friends from those states consider Texas to be part of the Southwest.

And you're doing H-town no favors either with your tripe.

Word. Seriously dude. Sepia Mutiny isn't a blog about which city is cooler. Let's put this dog to rest please. Else I'm about to start singing that song "I got ho's in different area codes" just so the other cities in the U.S. feel included in this ridiculous conversation.

Dude, aren't you from Oregon? Daz a village pretending to be a state.

hell yeah! and god's very own country to boot!

if you want me to generalize from my travels across the country...

northeast = fast competent, if sometimes rude, service (these are the large cities, vermont is quite polite)
southeast = slow and stupid, but really polite, service
southwest = service by a lot of small brown-skinned people with fragmented english, but quick to attention
northwest = service by people with degrees in english and who are competent and nice

we invented starbux :)

northeast = fast competent, if sometimes rude, service

Not rude, just a bit brusque. I get annoyed when my cashier tries to chit chat with me. Remember, NYC was ranked the most polite city in the world!

Could we get somewhat ontopic? Not to be cranky but us non-Americans can't follow much of the above discussion.

By the way, I've been to both Dallas and Houston and I hated it. But then I pretty much despise the whole setup of American cities in general - can't go anywhere without a car.

meena,

are you from amsterdam or another city? i just visited amsterdam, and i love the fact that bikes are the main form of transportation! that, and it's so easy to take the tram anywhere. of course, it's easier to do that within the city itself, it's hard to do that in spread out metropolitan cities like Dallas and Houston.

i just visited amsterdam, and i love the fact that bikes are the main form of transportation! ....it's hard to do that in spread out metropolitan cities like Dallas and Houston.

It's the other way around, nivritti. The cities are spread out precisely because the automobile is one of America's self-defining myths. The widespread use of bicycles for basic transportation needs requires a rather different mindset than one will find in most of the US.

One thing New York City has that other cities in the US struggle to match is a deeply ingrained culture of pedestrian/public-transportation, and I wonder if this partly accounts for New York's reputation as "un-American." But even New York would be much improved by bike lanes, and other cyclist friendly measures.

But then I pretty much despise the whole setup of American cities in general - can't go anywhere without a car.

That's not true of all cities. In New York AND Washington, D.C. it is very possible to be car-free. I know San Franciscans who feel the same way. Hmmm...what else do all these cities have in common... ;)

ANYWAY, I agree with the Dutch desi, let's get back on topic. Racist children in Hong Kong-- discuss. :D

The Chinese and other East Asians generally look down on upon darker-skinned peoples, which is sad. Even with an ethnic group darker skinned people are looked down upon. I think this is partly due to people associating darker skin with working on the farms. And farmers are less well-off, so there's a socioeconomic factor, also.

In HK, from what I heard from people who were raised there, it's all about the benjamins or I guess whoever is on the HK currency. I'm not sure what type of occupations HK South Asians have, but I'm assuming most of them are part of the working class, as most immigrants anywhere are.

All immigrants or minorities anywhere are generally looked down upon by the native population, so the kids' comments are awful but not very surprising to me.

but I'm assuming most of them are part of the working class,, as most immigrants anywhere are

no. think vancouver hong kong chinese. or market dominant minorities in places like latin america (jews, lebanese) and southeast asia (chinese). or even indian americans in the USA.

Mr. Kobayashi,

You're right, It probably is the other way around. And from that basis transpired suburban sprawl with the bigger homes for smaller families and affordable housing of the desired size for people who couldn't afford homes in the city, etc. I could go on, but I'd go off topic.

----

I think it's human nature to classify and create hierarchy. No matter how much a group of people seem to have in common, they'll find a way to redefine themselves and create segregation within the group. When numbers are small people tend to assimilate more, and when numbers are larger you see self segregation whether it be by religion, socioeconomic status, values, customs, culture, etc. Classifying isn't necessarily bad, but I think when ranking (who is better than whom) comes into play it will inevitably create a negative divide.

Dae Han-

About 96% of Hong Kong's population is ethnically Chinese, the majority of which are Cantonese...The remaining 4% of the population is composed of non-ethnic Chinese, who form a highly visible group (see Lan Kwai Fong and Tai-Pan), despite their small numbers.

Among these is a significant South Asian population, which includes some of Hong Kong's wealthiest families. Some Nepalis residing in Hong Kong are Gurkhas, who chose to stay after their service to Britain, and their families and descendants. [linkypoo]

The demand for "fair" brides persists. The skin lightening cream by Ayshe are advertised shamelessly on ZEE TV. Indians like their Bollywood actresses as light skinned as possible. Ergo - there is a skin color based hierarchy in Indian culture. Some African Americans have confessed to having the same bias in their own culture. Why should the Chinese be an exception?

I am not sure, though, if the root cause has anything to do with menial labor and the skin darkening effects of the sun. I would think it is the centuries of European domination of the world that has conditioned our thinking. Give India a sustained GDP growth of 8% for the next 10 years and it is brown that might climb to the top of the pyramid, and Sepia Mutiny will go down in history as being way, way ahead of its time.

Among these is a significant South Asian population, which includes some of Hong Kong's wealthiest families

parsis and sindhis especially.

I am not sure, though, if the root cause has anything to do with menial labor and the skin darkening effects of the sun. I would think it is the centuries of European domination of the world that has conditioned our thinking.

read more. you find it in tokugawa japan and in you find it among the pre-columbian inca. european domination has resulted in preference for some european traits in some places (e.g., japanese used to find light eyes and non-black hair ugly, no longer), but heirarchical societies tend to prize light skin as a sign of aristocracy, especially for women (herakles was blackened because he was virile and outdoor, though chinese, who did not value martial attributes tended to prefer light skin in males too).

also, there is some within population correlation between female fecundity and light skin because testosterone tends to be inversely correlated with fecundity and darkens skin (within a pop. males are always about 5-10% darker on unexposed skin than females, and older females are darker than younger females). but correlations within correlations can obscure, so the sociological argument is probably best for now.

Indians like their Bollywood actresses as light skinned as possible.

and of course not. what indians consider "fair" is olive-brown "swarthy" where i live. if indians wanted as light as possible they'd import european origin B actresses instead of half-browns. what populations want in females especially in fair within their pop. range. nicole kidman fair, which i would hit myself if i wasn't with a smokin' lady already, is probably freakish in most of the world.

which i would hit myself if i wasn't with a smokin' lady already,

Razib, you're so cute when you talk like a gangster, even though you're a science geek (in a good way) ;-)

within a pop. males are always about 5-10% darker on unexposed skin than females, and older females are darker than younger females

That's an interesting factoid. What it suggests, to me, is that there would be a tendency within a population (particularly those that have a wide distribution of skin color) to relate fairness of skin with female youth. Over time, this could affect cultural notions about beauty, in the same way that gray hair is held to signify wisdom, or a high pitched voice is considered girly and attractive.

But why this kind of thinking should transfer so readily to conceptions of other races, I have no idea. "Fair and lovely," in other words, might be something that predates racism by quite some time.

chinese, who did not value martial attributes tended to prefer light skin in males too

However, you sound like a schmuck when you say things like this. The Chinese did not value martial attributes? This will come as news to twenty-one centuries of emperors.

However, you sound like a schmuck when you say things like this. The Chinese did not value martial attributes? This will come as news to twenty-one centuries of emperors.

han wudi, 'the martial emperor,' didn't lead from the front. that tells you about how much the chinese value the experience of soldiery, as opposed to how much they utilized soldiers. but i know chinese history, you obviously don't if you can make such a snide remark, or if you can imagine that the ideal of chinese culture was toward martial glory (e.g., the conquests post-1650 were by manchus, a non-han people). the opponents of the confucians mocked them for basically being wimps, but it was the confucian ideal of scholar-bureaucrats which became the archetype which dominates much of pre-modern chinese history. whereof one does not know, one should not speak :)

what indians consider "fair" is olive-brown "swarthy" where i live.

Not necessarily. Amongst north Indian populations, especially those from the northwest, "fair" in relation to women generally means "vanilla" or "porcelain" coloured. There is of course a slight gradation to what would be regarded as light olive, but any darker than that is not regarded as "fair-skinned" in the traditional sense of the term.

I would agree, however, that olive-brown is regarded as "fair" when it comes to men.

if indians wanted as light as possible they'd import european origin B actresses instead of half-browns.

Already happening to a minor extent, re: Yana Gupta and one or two other Eastern European models who have appeared in "item-number" music videos.

Okay, my point in the post is not to say Houston is the best, nor to compare cities. A statement was made, that was baseless and incorrect, and I was arguing that. No more. You can tell me the world is flat, and I'm the type to argue you that its round, no matter how long it takes. Misinformation should be corrected.

Jai is right on this. Many Northwest Indians, Punjabis and Kashmimiris have white skin. I have relatives that do(sister, nephew). My cousin just had a baby and she (baby) has blue green eyes and light brown hair with blonde streaks. Dad has brown hair, tanned due to indian climate, his wife is white-pinkish with black hair. Of course appearances change, so we dont' know how she'll look later, but thats what she is now. This is a Punjabi Hindu (Khatri) family.

sp. kashmiri's

I

agree, 'ah cha' sounds like a phonetic transliteration of 'accha' which is a common feature across many north indian languages

The "cha" refers to barbeque, same as "cha siu bao" (Cantonese for bbq pork bun). It's a reference to Indian's skin colour - brown/black as if it had been barbequed. White people are "gweilo" (white devils) and Africans are "ha gwei" (black devils).

Most HK-ers experiences with Indians (or Indian-appearing persons) is with the guys who hang around Tsimshatsui and hassle you with questions like "Tailor? Tailor?" or "Rolex?".

Don't know how big it is in HK, but there's a Singaporean tv show out there about a Chinese-Indian couple called 'Achar!'. Link

# 36
Whose God is it anyways?,

I think you’re referring to this situation. The link doesn’t confirm the cause of the negligence, though that doesn’t mean of course that racism and apathy weren’t factors. The husband’s tactful statement at the end of the article seems to sum up the outcomes of both his battle and the coroner’s verdict. It suggests more of a bittersweet rather than a pyrrhic victory for him. His involvement lead to the result and made the story known. On a collective level, while he (and others in a similar position elsewhere) will never meet many who sympathized throughout and after his efforts, I’m ready to bet that even empathy from strangers can go a long way in strengthening a person in his or her personal fight. Public empathy can be in the form of behind the scenes moral support or active help, a combo that reminds me of a news story I saw a few weeks ago.

I happened to tune into one of the Indian cable stations and came across the last 2 hours of a 49 hour ‘event.’ A 5 year old boy in India fell through a 60 ft. borewell that had been covered loosely with a jute bag. Unfortunately, people accidentally stepping into uncovered pits isn’t rare, but in this instance the initial negligence, apathy, and social disinterest was turned around. It appears that the local authorities didn’t act immediately till word got out, and the army was sent in to rescue the boy. The army eventually dug a connecting tunnel from a nearby dry well.

Before the boy was rescued, contact was kept by lowering a TV camera and milk and biscuits down to him. It was almost surreal watching the camera’s images of the child, who, cramped in a 2.5 ft. space had pulled off his clothes and was huddled foetal like. Not surprisingly he was a bit dazed. His rescuer had to coax him to come up with him.

The live coverage was big news in India. Most viewers had caught it from the start.
The ticker on the channel coverage had comments ranging from “Pray for Prince,” to “Don’t depend on God. Use your brains to think of something,” to “Throw the Politicians in the well,” etc. There were questions too about why the rescue was taking so long and if there was a better solution. These opinions along with the huge crowd grouping around the well kept the expectation for a successful conclusion. In that way I guess your handle is apt. As long as one has a kind of kind faith, religious or not, then the right thing can get done. In the end, Prince left the well on the evening of his 6th birthday. He was bundled through the crowd and probably wondering why there were people and camera lights.
He seems fine now from the follow up stories.

Tiu Fu Fong: The "cha" refers to barbeque, same as "cha siu bao" (Cantonese for bbq pork bun). It's a reference to Indian's skin colour - brown/black as if it had been barbequed. White people are "gweilo" (white devils) and Africans are "ha gwei" (black devils).

Hmmm, interesting. So the HK chinese do not add the suffix devil to their slur against indians? Why the exception?