July 27, 2006
Desi Girls Gone FuglyFashion
Via our news tab, mutineer Rupa alerts us to this week’s SECOND sepia fugging on the popular (and brutal) Go Fug Yourself blog. While I don’t necessarily agree with Heather’s review of pretty Parminder, I think the girls at GFY are usually spot-on with their wit and crit.
Rupa’s tip was about Mindy Kaling, someone whom I will admit I don’t know much about because she’s on NBC’s lesser version of The Office, a show I have never been able to sit through for an entire episode. No matter. The genius of GFY is its focus on the outfit. I don’t need to be an Office-fan to grasp THAT. Or not grasp it, as is the case here…what is up with those boots?
From the knees up, she looks adorable, all set for a divine NBC-Universal booze cruise of clenched-teeth joy, where every toast to their wonderful fall schedule comes with paranoia from Jeff Zucker that people will figure out they’ve swapped the costly champagne and top-shelf liquor with well booze and sparkling cider.
But her shoes are pure “local theater revival of Xanadu.” They look like she stapled wallpaper scraps to her ankles.
They actually look like chausses to me, but vatewer. Like expert Fugger Heather, I dig everything else she’s got going on, too. Her skin is glow-y, little black dresses are always money and the coral-red beads look great on her. But the boots…oy.
A few days ago, Brimful sent us the other GFY-related news item about Parminder Nagra getting fugged. In a delightful bit of connectivity, if you search SM for Mindy Kaling, Brimful’s comment about her here is one of two results you’ll find. If you can spin some sort of conspiracy theory out of that and the fact that both fuggees are on NBC shows, bring it. ;)
On to Parminder, specifically what GFY had to say about HER threads, since Fugger Heather and I already agree on the following:
Parminder Nagra is gorgeous.
Word. Where’s the “but”?
Which is why I wish heartily that she hadn’t gone and upholstered herself…Her body looks tense, as if she’s uncomfortable or uneasy in this confusing crosshatched fabric-store nightmare. I suspect it’s because no one expects the Spanish Inquisition — you have to maintain constant vigilence when you’re dressed as something resembling a Comfy Chair, because you risk being dragged unexpectedly into their brand of comfortable torture. From there it’s a short slide down to poking some old woman with the soft cushions and wondering, “How did this become my life?”
Owie. I don’t think she looks UPHOLSTERED, but I might be a little biased; I love green, plaid and wrap-dresses, so put Parminder Nagra in all of the above and I’m rather content. I know, it’s not her best look but if this is what “fugly” means…
fugly (adj.)
frightfully ugly; of or pertaining to something beyond the boundaries of normal unattractiveness. Ex: “That ‘Kabbalists Do It Better’ trucker hat is fugly.”
…in that picture, she’s not fugly to me. :) Your thoughts?
:+:
On a slightly related note, I was just looking at this post when I realized that neither of these accomplished actresses are the color of milky tea. They don’t have jewel-colored eyes, fair skin or blonde/auburn hair/highlights. In other words, they look like plain old desi me. That thought made me happy, after a lifetime of hearing “You’re so pretty for a dark girl,” while growing up in Northern California. I could tell you stories about my personal experiences with the entire “fairness-is-a-virtue” mindset which would dislodge your jaw, but I’ll save it for later.
After approximately three seconds of basking in the glow of these two, I realized that if we swapped the “H” for a “B”, they’d never make it in THAT version of the industry. Hollywood will use an actress which looks like me, Bollywood…won’t.
anna on July 27, 2006 05:32 PM in Fashion, Humor, Photos, TV · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
thanks kid.
for updating it with rupe's bloglink. I was just dying to see a pic of a well executed hand job while enjoying my tea. rupe, you dirty girl, you!
Nominees for Mr Blackwell's list ?
Note: I just added a new ending to this post, after being inspired by my belly button.
dude, i had no f**king idea that the chik on the right was nagra. iz that her for realz?
and she duz look like sheez going to snap.
solid coda, anna. as for the initial question, i have to go with the fug girls. "upholstered" is most appropriate. yecch!
i think parminder's dress could have been attractive if it fit her better. i feel like wrap dresses are supposed to flatter a girl's curves, but hers makes her look like she has none. and i think gfy is correct on mindy's look.
On the same day that Brimful left that fug shot on our News Tab I searched for news articles about Parminder and found this one. I'm wondering if it is a fake though because it doesn't explain the context in which it was taken. If it is a fake I don't know how it got filed under Google's news directory.
anna:
i couldn't stand the office either...but then it clicked...and alas since arrested development is lost..and every other show is some pathetic reality tv show like 'be my nanny', or 'become the next fashion stud'.. the entire spectrum of good tv has become minsicule... hence netflix subscription have gone sky high
fugly.. definition i thought meant 'f*cking ugly'... sounds better that way, and really describes the 2 gals in 'my super sweet 16'--divya/priya need plastic surgery... and to stop feeling elephants that look like their louis vuitton bag (are those gals for real?)
Mandy Kaling looks hideous... Parmindra just needs another dress..or better fit for her body type...they both are not fugly...the page made a mistake and should've put the two dimwits from Beaumont, Tx on it..because to be perfectly frank, their outfits that they wore on the show..the indian ones were god damn ugly.... i thought super money could buy better outfits... but i guess super money can't buy good taste ;)...
Oh well...
Awww... poor Mindy Kaling. She might not be much of a dresser, but the girl is hilarious, hilarious, I tell you! And I contend that The Office (US) is really carving out its own niche, having seen both the UK & US versions now.
And Abhi, why am I not surprised you dug up that article about Nagra? ;)
And Abhi, why am I not surprised you dug up that article about Nagra? ;)
that wuznt abhi, that was perv_abhi.
Hey it's my job and I take what I do seriously. If I don't spend the day digging up desi related news then who will? ;)
If I don't spend the day digging up desi related news then who will?
perv_abhi, check the credit. i'm an amateur brownologist....
Abhi, the pic was real and featured in a fashion spread in a glossy magazine...
So, she's Parminder "Nanga" now?
Anyway, she's beautiful, as always. Yo, if that's fugly, I'll take two.
That dress does look like a cross between French country design and Kabuki theatre. But it isn't anything Miuccia Prada wouldn't make, and it sure as heck isn't anything Bjork wouldn't wear.
Dress sense does not make one fugly - that's just plain mean spirited to fug them. It would have been more appropriate to put the offending boots/plaid upholstery dress behind the Glamour black "Don't" bar.
I mean, seriously, those are pretty girls!! I think the whole Queer Eye/American Idol/whateverthenewshowsareIdon'tknowabout culture of being hyper-critical of other people's tastes has gone too far in the US.
I realized that if we swapped the H for a B, theyd never make it in THAT version of the industry. Hollywood will use an actress which looks like me, Bollywood wont.
yep. i was shocked when a FOB friend pointed me to a pic of bipasha basu as a "dark actress," seeing as she is probably lighter than the typical brown. my friend's response to this was, "hey, you don't have ugly people on TV in america, same thing."
Hollywood will use an actress which looks like me, Bollywood wont.
They have been quite a few darker complexioned actresses in Bollywood. Amongst the A-listers: Smita Patil (started as an art house actress but later did very commerical movies with Amitabh B. etc.), Nandita Das, Mallika Sherawat, and no other than Bipasha Basu. Even Shahbana Azmi is no Kareena Kapoor, and she has done quite a bit of Bollywood commerical movies.
You can also never forget: Silk Smita.
Sure, there is fixation for lighter complexion in Bollywood.
Now Hollywood A-list: only one Halle Berry. Is she really dark complexioned?
kush, i just google imaged all those women. yes, they are dark, by bollywood standards. one of them would be dark on the distribution of brown people, some of the pictures suggest they'd be fair in much of india, and none of them would be shifted beyond the skin complexion median toward the darker end. and halley berry is a hell of a lot more chocolate than most bollywood actresses, even if she is mixed-race.
p.s. this is not a big deal, but this color issue came up with my friend as he was ragging on me about american racism.
one of them, i meant none of them.
It's so funny how she can look like a fugly soccer mom in the above picture and a sexy chick in another.
I should admit my fashion sense is non-existent (in a perfect world jeans and a t-shirt would be considered formal wear, and I still wear flannel). Also, I ain't gonna lie, I have a mild crush on Ms. Nagra. But that dress, yeesh. I wouldn't describe either of these women as fugly though, no matter what they're wearing. This goes to show that red carpet walkers should shift their focus from trying to make the best dressed list and concentrate on avoiding the worst dressed.
Aw, NBC's "Office" is much better than people want to believe. Unfortunately, it shot itself in the foot by having its debut episode be a horrendous word-for-word reenactment of the first BBC episode. It took a few episodes for them to bring the US characters into their own, but the payoff was worth it. I was a huge fan of the original, but now I find myself more invested in the whole Jim/Pam thing than I was for Tim/Dawn.
Oh, and Sonia, thank you so much for that Parminder pic. Rowr! :)
Oh, and Sonia, thank you so much for that Parminder pic. Rowr! :)
can we pleez respect the ladies? women aren't there for your to get off on man, we gotz to respect 'em as equals. A++, not T&A. props for her acting, not her ass.
in terms of bollywood, sushmita sen and priyanka chopra are also not fair-skinned, despite the pasty pancake make-up that is applied on them. they also do that to bipasha basu sometimes. their faces are several shades pastier than their arms in some movies.
those dresses (and shoes) above are indeed fugly. why are they dressing like grandmas?
Jesus H Christ....what is wrong with these girls? What the hell are they wearing and both are such lovely lasses. Gooddamn whoever dressed them needs to be fired yesterday and beaten. Plaid is fine on the inside of a jacket (occassionaly outside), on a purse (I prefer on the inside), on a hot Irishman on St Paddys day, on your dog etc etc. For petes sake. And the black dress might be ok if it was a bit more shapely and the whole Ugg look a la Jessica Simpson & Paris Hilton is the dumbest fashion idea ever. Jessica and Paris can pull it off, mere mortals should NOT be wearing it!!!
paris hilton bathes with feces. i shit you note, follow the link....
ANNA: You sepia goddess- You are far prettier than Kareena Kapoor- Whose claim to beauty is her "Gora Gora rang" . You should totally write a post on your experience- one for the girls! so we can all vent.
Parminder is gorgeous- but I agree she does look lost in that outfit - the cut and the pattern make her waist disappear.
End rant- Gotta pack!!
i shit you not. not my day for spelling :)
Kareena Kapoor- Whose claim to beauty is her "Gora Gora rang"
the kapoor chix look horsey 2 me.
Ewww.. Razib- Was that for "Simple Life" ? What IDIOT parents leave their kids under Whoris's care..
She wears the same bathing suit she was "washing" the car to give a baby a bath??
This is soooo wrong- can she go to jail for this??
hilton's are untouchable. i heard she landed on a german farmhouse with her helicopter and had her guards evict the family so she could take a piss in their house. last i cheked the deutsch gov. has no warrant out on the ho.
Well, okay then. I'm sorry I said "rowr."
What I meant to say was, "Ding dong!"
Kareena Kapoor looks like a desi Paris Hilton. Her face annoys the shit out of me.
Parminder's dress doesn't photograph well. I bet if you saw her face to face, that dress would look hot to you :)
Kareena Kapoor looks like a desi Paris Hilton. Her face annoys the shit out of me.
so, are saying saying that KK has been banged by all of old delhi, or wut?
must agree with kareena kapoor.. she is fugly..her face? ugh. just because her fam is in the biz she got films..otherwise she'd be off in the streets of mumbai
I think Parminder's dress would look great if it were a better fit. The shoulders look off, and it doesn't look too flattering at her waist. But it would be super pretty. Maybe she needs to gain a little weight or something.
Those shoes on Mindy Kaling, nothing could make those look better. Nothing. They should be taken away and shot.
define pretty. is it the same as attractive?
or maybe it's all in the eye of the beholder. that green plaid is wrapped around and hooked on one thread. what lies beneath?
Howdy ya'll!
I agree about Parminder: the dress isn't something I'd pick out for her but it would be acceptable if it were just tailored a little better.
Mindy Kaling is EFFING HILARIOUS. She writes many of the episodes of The Office, which has definitely taken on its own identity in the 2nd season. Pretty awesome achievement for a woman in a show that's a total frat house. She's adorable on the show and looks cute here... with the exception of the boots. They are total fug.
Parminder ben-- please ask next time you want to cut up my Nani's sofa slipcovers.
Desi girls gone fugly? Puhleez someone replace gone with always have been.
Peace
The first gal ain't so bad, the boots were a bad choice and I wouldn't recommend beads(but then, that's my personal preference) but otherwise she looks ok. And - ohmygosh - is that Parminder?? I object to the use of plaid on anything other than a handbag or the lining of a jacket. The dress isn't cut well either - it seems a few sizes to big at the shoulders, the sleeves are too long, and it is entirely unflattering.
I lowe Kobayashi.
It is entirely possible to admire a woman's hotness whilst simultaneously respecting her as an equal and appreciating her for her personality/accomplishments/etc.
The two concepts are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Parminder's dress - so fugly it's foogly!
The Kareena Kapoor-Paris Hilton comparison is dead on! I really don't see the fuss about Kareena, I mean she's nice looking in a Panju way but certainly not a great beauty. But she's considered pretty because she's so ghostly-pale.
they've just got too much makeup on that's all.
SP--Kareena Kapoor ghostly pale? Um..no she's a brownie...and not the white choco kind either....her eyes are too close in for her face...and she is fugly no matter what brown paper bag she wears..unlike the 2 indian chicas above who are both gorgeous..just caught in the wrong shoes/outfit...
mindy is fugly regardless of what she's wearing. It doesn't help that her character on the office is incredibly annoying.
Ummm...I actually like Parminder's dress. Sure, I don't love it, but it does have a 70s sensibility that I think is cute. And frankly, it's not as if she doesn't look gorgeous in it.
As for Mindy, the beads definitely have to go. She looks much better in a black dress sans fugly beads.
I saw Ashoka at Naz Cinema in Fremont Cali 3 years ago. Since I got there 2 minutes before the show was starting, I got the last remaining seat in row #2. I nearly got blinded by the pasty whiteness of Kareena Kapoor. There are a couple of scenes in the film where the entire screen went white. I thought I was flying into the Sun.
Mindy and Parminder need new shoes. Nothing hotter than a desi hottie in strappies ;-)
I can't say I've seen too many of Kareena's films, but have seen her a lot on telly and once in real life and compared with most desis that girl is Casper-white, I'm telling you. All the Kapoors are, look at Karisma too.
Pammy and Mindy are choco-licious! I would lick them from their ears to their toes...
Seriously, I hate the pasty look of the Kapoors that seems to be a weird fetish in Bollywood and in Indian society. (Read the matrimonial ads....gori, slim, pretty...)
Give me some black forest everyday!
From the article about Parminder "Nanga" -
Is it common knowledge that she's a "family oriented Indian girl" - or has this just been assumed, because she's Indian?
dude, office is hilarious...just as much as mindy's outfit. and i agree with heather's description of beautiful Parminder; she does need another dress.
anna, this is why i heart you: your ending rocked.
weird fetish in Bollywood and in Indian society
if it is normal can it be weird? if american born brownz weren't born in a society where "fair and lovely" brown style is "dark & sultry," and where we're all equally sand n[...], we wouldn't find the color issues as hilarious and bizarro, and might be just like them. color heirarchies are natural across cultures to some extent.
color heirarchies are natural across cultures to some extent.
across heirarchical cultures.
Parminder is gorgeous but that dress doesnt do her justice. I think Kareena Kapoor is really talented, check out her look in the new movie Omkara (makeup-less). This movie shows that she doesn't need her family name to get work in bollywood.
Talking about fair skin, check out what one of the popular actress in bollywood Rimi Sen has to say about it recently while promoting her new movie.
hierarchical :)
Also What Rimi said here
In Hollywood, when they want an Indian actress, they want an actress who clearly looks Indian! Lightskinned folks, Indian or otherwise fall into the a more ambiguous nonwhite category which often does not fulfill the diversification objectives of the powers that be. Horray for brown skin!
There was an episode on Girlfriends about that but that's a whole 'nother set of brown right there...Kareena Kapoor is a one-trick pony. Every movie she's the same dang character. She was out partying in NYC a long while back and was so offended that people didn't know "who she was". bleh... pretentious
Bring back Karishma!! now she's beautiful.
Just a side note from an obbsessed fan.
Parminder is gorgeous, and that brit accent makes her very sexy.
I personally think her best work is in the mini-series/movie Second Generation. If you guys haven't seen this, its very good, a twist on the King Lear story. The music is also fantastic. I saw it as part of a small film festival at the Pioneer in the East Village. everyone who walked out of the theatre seemed to agree, she's fantastic in it.
DesiDancer - did you see the film Dev? I thought Kareena was OK in that (and not her usual trendy memsaab-ish young thing persona) Karisma could certainly act and was willing to get into the spirit of all those Govinda films, but I'm afraid I don't find her pretty at all. I think both the sisters get a free pass for their pale skin.
Diversity in entertainment certainly is nice; however, if Hollywood includes people just because of their skin tone, isn't that similar to Bollywood excluding people due to skin tone? In one case you have an industry that panders to a flawed perception of beauty, and in the other an industry that promotes a mistaken understanding of diversity.
I personally think that both are wrong, but I'm not sure how or when things will change. In the case of Bollywood, I'm sure there are plenty of talented and beautifully dark-skinned actresses. I suppose the question is whether or not a film with such a star would be commercially viable, though I sincerely hope so. The Hollywood case is somewhat more insidious. The underlying message to white people is that diversity is simply about skin tone or other superficial characteristics. Perhaps more insulting is the implicit premise that certain types of audiences can be bought by merely making a shallow and politically-correct casting decision.
Can I just say that Parminder Nagra could wear a burlap sack and I'd still find her pretty? I crush on her so bad.
I suppose the question is whether or not a film with such a star would be commercially viable, though I sincerely hope so. The Hollywood case is somewhat more insidious. The underlying message to white people is that diversity is simply about skin tone or other superficial characteristics.
hey, you're screwed either way. some people will complain about pigeon-holing, others will complain that you aren't being representative. the real key is not to be deterministic, and represent people as they are, not as you want them to be, or a cut-out stereotype. rita moreno in west side story lobbied to allow the physical diversity of puerto rican actors to show up in the film, but the director simply had them apply the makeup so they were relatively monotone.
Dan, My thoughts exactly. Excellent point. Only time will tell.
Dan, that my friend, is an excellent question. Unfortunately, today the answer is still no. Entertainment in every culture is based on caricatures and types. That is why independent film is well, independent. It typically breaks the rules and flaunts the types and 9 times out of 10 makes less money because of it.
*Support your local independent filmmaker.*
-END commercial
the real key is not to be deterministic, and represent people as they are
That is why I brought the example of Smita Patil. She defined her career on her own terms - there were no layers of makeup coating. Here are some links: here, here, here. This is woman who acted with Amitabh in Namak Halal and Shakti as commercial movies and did some of the most powerful movies in Indian cinema - Manthan, Aakrosh, Arth, etc.
Same for Silk Smita on a different scale. She sold her "oomph" pretty well. Some pics here
Now Hollywood, let us not even get started - How much representative are the looks of Denzel Washington for African Americans? For that matter, Muhammed Ali who is perhaps will be in the list of top 20 most influential Americans of 20th Century. Every second sentence he told everyone was how handsome he was (sure, he is on list for different reasons). He later apologized for calling Joe Frazier "ugly" who was more mainstream in his looks.
As I have always said, both Hollywood and Bollywood is a business - they will sell what you want to buy.
Razib, I agree that almost all society puts a premium on fairness, remember Cinderalla story. Blaming South Asians exclusively is inaccurate. Also, comparing A-list of Bollywood to TV actors of Hollywood. I am sure Indian TV has a boader bandwith of looks and skin shade, I am pretty sure.
How much representative are the looks of Denzel Washington for African Americans
LOL, he is representative, except that he's good looking. so i guess the analogy works, if fair == good looking (as my FOB friend asserted). i don't want to see ugly people on TV or the movies either.
re: your actress examples, i am talking in terms of distributions, not exceptions to the rule. people are TV or movies tend to be much better looking than typical, and we have general agreemant on what that means. but, there are details to be worked out. some americans object to the excessive focus on thinness. i think that is acceptable, because i do think there are normal sized people who are very good looking, and our society should reflect that. similarly, i also think there are very good looking people whose skin colors are richly brown. kala can be beautiful. if you look at the indian media, or the broader culture, that is not acknowledged.
Cinderalla story
yes, in the west female fairness has been the norm. in europe, blonde hair is the ideal. women like kareena kapoor are dark, which is why i probably find indian color obsessions laughable, since they are off my culturally conditioned scale.
nevertheless, there are plenty of black-haired actresses. catherine zeta-jones and angelina jolie stand out. they aren't just NOT blonde, they are
on the A of the A list (especially jolie), and almost swarthy.
Blaming South Asians exclusively is inaccurate
this is a blog about south asians, of course i'll blame them and focus on them. but i've made repeated cross-cultural references, and you will note in my comments. i don't expect brownz, or indians, to be lionizing what they feel is ugly & repulsive (i've never heard "kala" with except a sneer frankly, and i associate it with a sneer, or pity). i just want them to shut up a bit sometimes about american racism.
there is regular fawning over anna here, despite the fact that she is the not the fairest (literally) of them all. i think that is a testament to the fact that color prejudice in the brown style has been rendered moot in the USA. i predict if this was a predominantly brown forum there would be a stronger preference toward a fugly-faced fattie so long as she was pale-olive (that is my experience in bangladesh, fat ugly light women trump slim but facially attractive dark women).
I'm sensing some nasty vibes here regarding Kareena Kapoor's light skin. The same kind of remarks about a dark-skinned Indian woman would be (rightfully) regarded as unacceptable, so it's a little disconcerting that some people think it's okay to make disparaging comments about her like that, even if the negative remarks may also be about facial features in both cases.
She may not be representative of the average Indian woman in terms of her skin tone -- taking the Indian population as a whole -- but her look is a hell of a lot more more common amongst Punjabis and (to a slightly lesser extent, apart from Kashmiris) amongst some other north Indian communities like Gujaratis. This doesn't mean that the majority of women from those regions look that way, but a disproportionate number do. This doesn't make them any less Indian (despite what Hollywood may think) or less "normal" (despite the use of the word "weird" by some commenters here in reference to such women) -- less "brown", perhaps, but I've already stated on another recent thread that I think the use of this term as a slang form of self-identification is an extremely bad idea.
I'm trying not to say this in a nasty way, but it appears that there is an obsession on the part of some South Asians in the US about being "brown", with various related connotations. It's a striking difference to the way desis on this part of the Atlantic handle this issue; there's certainly a preoccupation in some quarters with being (South) Asian -- in some communities more than others, perhaps -- but it's related to geographical origin and, sometimes, with religious affiliation, not skin colour.
I'm also wondering if the greater proportion of South Indians (and desis from non-North Indian parts of the subcontinent) in the US compared to the desi population in the UK (predominantly North Indian, ie. Punjabi & Gujarati, along with Pakistani) is a partial reason for what appears to be an excessive preoccupation with "brownness" and a continual lashing out at light-skinned desi women and the traditional premium placed on them in the beauty stakes within South Asian culture.
also, to be fair, i will say this: if i was born in brownland where the sun shone bright, and the peasant toiled in the field, i can totally understand why kala = ugly and low class (explanation does not imply excuse). my problem is two fold: a) the tendency some indians have of speaking about the experience of american brownz as if we have the foot of jim crow on our backs (my friend who i am alluding to regularly did this and i got sick of it and so i brought up the color issue) b) uncles & aunties trying to perpetuate the attitudes in the states. someone has to tell them to shut the fuck up sometimes, because here we're all basically brown to the rest of the society, the minute shades-of-difference which matter so much in the old country are just another shade of sand n[...]. i remember a relative of mine, pale brown, noting how a cousin was "dark" in bangladesh. i told her that in amerika she'd be "kalaw too." she was shocked & unpleased, but that should be a nice come back on these shores. next time a girl like anna is told by a cafe au lait brown that she's pretty "for a dark girl," she should be like, "better pretty and dark than ugly and dark, like you, we're all sand n[...] here bitch."
Speaking of color, I had an interesting experience last week.
I was working in Georgia, about an hour and half south of Atlanta in the boonies. The factory I was inspecting stuff has a very large African American workforce, mostly assembly line workers and inspectors.
Two ladies I was working with thought I had 'good skin' and asked where I was from. I replied in kind, "I was born in Chicago, but my family is Indian". I'm one those dreaded 'dark' Indian guys. I chuckled when they asked what I put down on forms when identifying race. "African, mixed, other?". I said they had an option now to mark East-Indian.
continual lashing out at light-skinned desi women and the traditional premium placed on them in the beauty stakes within South Asian culture.
jai, my younger bro is the same color as me form what i can tell. but my family regularly says that i am lighter, and so do other bangladeshis, so there must be some difference that my amerikan eye can't discren. i can see him bristle. i'm cool, cuz i never have to experience it, but i'm sure he is resentful of this, especially since there really isn't much of a diff. (that i can see).
you mentioned once i believe that you looked "iranian." so perhaps it is hard for you to empathize if you are the jewel-of-the-race :)
myself, i'm standard issue brown, but i am frankly embarrassed by having to explain to my girlfriend why indian actors look like italians (she lived in italy for 2 years, she knows what they look like). call me selfish.
No, she isn't. Have you ever seen her being interviewed on television (in a studio) or even in real life ? She's as light-skinned as the English Rose stereotype. So are many other North Indian women, especially those from Punjab and Kashmir (in the latter case I'm referring to Hindus & Sikhs), along with Gujarat to a lesser extent, as I mentioned earlier.
I'm sensing some nasty vibes here regarding Kareena Kapoor's light skin. The same kind of remarks about a dark-skinned Indian woman would be (rightfully) regarded as unacceptable
sheez not fugly cuz sheez lite, sheez fugly cuz she looks like paris hilton & a horse.
No, she isn't. Have you ever seen her being interviewed on television (in a studio) or even in real life ? She's as light-skinned as the English Rose stereotype. So are many other North Indian women, especially those from Punjab and Kashmir (in the latter case I'm referring to Hindus & Sikhs), along with Gujarat to a lesser extent, as I mentioned earlier.
dark = hair color, not skin. all europeans have light skin. if you don't have pink nipples, you're dark. straight up. kashmiris & punjabis are dark too in the european context. itz all relative. i had an irish friend who was told he wouldn't be white in norway cuz of his dark hair and eyes.
and jai, you know that people from armenia & georgia get beat up in moscow for being "black" right? "light-skinned" kashmirs and punjabis are no lighter than people from the caucasus. in many parts of whiteland if you don't have a big pink mark on your face after you are slapped lightly, your black.
GD:
my father actually celebrates the fact that he and my mother were lucky enough to immigrate to a country where they already had "ehtnic representation". I'm talking about our African brothers, my friend. he gets so emphatic, too.
"BETA...WE ARE BUT A SINGLE GENE EXPRESSION AWAY FROM A MARSHALL OR A JACKSON [black neighbors at the time] AS OUR HAIRS WILL NOT RELENT TO THE STRENGTH OF THEIR KINK[ED HAIR] YET WE REMAIN BROTHERS AND SISTERS."
i swear he's delusional at times, suggesting that he participated in "the struggle" as if he worked in the scorching heat of the Alabaman sun, picking cotton for a white guy all day.
friggin pops.
Razib,
Perhaps. Indians in general assume I'm a Muslim, Punjabis think I'm either Kashmiri or a Pakistani, and Pakistanis and people from the Middle East think I'm Iranian. *shrug*
As is probably clear from my previous comments on the topic (on this and other threads), there is also a disproportionate number of extremely light-skinned desi women here in the UK (when I mean light, I don't mean olive, I mean vanilla or porcelain), some of whom I've had the honour of being very close to, so I guess all that's also going to affect my perspective and my reactions.
You might think so.....I couldn't possibly comment ;)
So are the guys here allowed to make similar comments about dark desi women who may not necessarily have the most perfect facial features, or does everyone have to keep quiet there due to concerns about political correctness ?
That's just a rhetorical question, of course -- I'm playing Devil's Advocate. As Anna correctly said recently, political correctness may be overvalued, but kindness is not.
Razib,
Not in the case of people from the Mediterranean countries, very large numbers of whom look pretty similar to large numbers of people from the northwestern corners of the subcontinent (especially those who are currently here in the UK).
By the way, what happens in Moscow is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. We all know they have all kinds of problems with racist attitudes over there. Who cares what such people think (the racists, not Russians as a whole) ?
Clarification: "Honour" because they were wonderful people, not because they were light-skinned.
Jai, I think the jist of Razib's point is that in America, the dominant white community cannot distinguish between shades of brown, therefore, as far as the general perception goes, we are all of a kind. Perhaps in the UK it is different.
In other news, it appears that the GFY girls are on a Sepia kick this week: another desi fugged.
Desitude,
I think the "default mode" for South Asians in the UK these days, at least from the perspective of the majority population, is people who look Pakistani/Punjabi (yes I know that's not a homogeneous group either, but you know what I mean). So there may be a difference in that regard compared to the US. Again, to some extent it's probably a factor of the different composition of the desi population here compared to the US.
English people who have spent a lot of time around desis will notice the variances to some extent, especially with regards to all the women around who may have black hair (occasionally dark brown) but have the same skin colour as plenty of Europeans, including many of the local English women.
But yes, I'd agree that they will not necessarily be as "attuned" to the gradations in skin tone as the average South Asian would be.
I understand your point, but it's not the same thing, yo. At least until they have "dark and lovely" cream.
Jai wrote:
it appears that there is an obsession on the part of some South Asians in the US about being "brown", .... It's a striking difference to the way desis on this part of the Atlantic handle this issue; there's certainly a preoccupation in some quarters with being (South) Asian ... but it's related to geographical origin and, sometimes, with religious affiliation, not skin colour.
Don't be obtuse. "Brown" is no more a literal appellation than "black" or "white". Most "black" people are dark or light brown. Most "white" people are pink or beige. Brown people are not literally brown. And Americans and Canadians don't use 'asian' because here, the term means "yellow" people.
The same kind of remarks about a dark-skinned Indian woman would be (rightfully) regarded as unacceptable, so it's a little disconcerting that some people think it's okay to make disparaging comments about her like that
Desis come from a culture rife with colour prejudice, where people are openly disparaged for not being light-skinned enough. Jokes about light-skinned desis are more acceptable than insulting Kalas in the same way jokes about skinny women (like Paris Hilton) are more acceptable than jokes about fat women. Or how jokes insulting the rich are more acceptable than making fun of someone's poverty.
Jai also wrote:
there is also a disproportionate number of extremely light-skinned desi women here in the UK (when I mean light, I don't mean olive, I mean vanilla or porcelain), some of whom I've had the honour of being very close to
Is this self-parody? Close to Vanilla women? Porcelain women? And what about chalky women? Crisco-tinted women? White-sweatsock women?
So are the guys here allowed to make similar comments about dark desi women who may not necessarily have the most perfect facial features, or does everyone have to keep quiet there due to concerns about political correctness ?
of course! in fact, i think it is cool for people to think kalaw is ugly too (my mom thinks jordanna brewster is the apotheosis of beautitude). i just want those of us who live in the west to live in the real world about how others perceive us (i.e., "all you sand n[...] are black").
Not in the case of people from the Mediterranean countries, very large numbers of whom look pretty similar to large numbers of people from the northwestern corners of the subcontinent (especially those who are currently here in the UK).
there is a non-trivial overlap, true. i even rented from a sicilian american women who would always be addressed in punjabi in vancouver. that being said, the point is that according to western standards people who have names like "brown" or "black" (braun or swhwarz) do so usually because of hair and eye. in brownland these would be light-skinned individuals. if you live in a purely brown environment i guess the old standards are not outmoded or irrelevant, but in the USA very few live just around brownz (unless you are in queens or new jersy i guess).
like i said, i go by the nipple measure: if itz brown, you ain't light.
I don't really have anything meaningful to add to this. Something funny did happen to me though that is kinda related. I'm a very dark South Indian guy, darker then Mindy and anything else people here have linked to. Anyway, I went to a job fair hosted by the National Black MBA Association when I graduted and was standing in a line behind a light skinned black guy. We got to talking and he asked me what I was doing here since I was'nt black. The girl behind me turned to him and said "He's blacker than you are".
Is this self-parody? Close to Vanilla women? Porcelain women? And what about chalky women? Crisco-tinted women? White-sweatsock women?
mocha, mahogany and teak.
i gotz a swedish amerikan friend hittin' some gujarati, and i call 'em 'teak and ivory.'
Ikram,
Still a bad idea and a step backwards.
Er, what ? Most South Asians are various shades of brown. A minority like Kareena are not.
I was playing Devil's Advocate, as I mentioned earlier. Apparently, it's okay to ridicule Kareena's facial features and, indeed, her skin colour because she's lighter, but not (supposedly unattractive) women who may be darker, despite the fact that in terms of their personality and behaviour, neither may necessarily deserve it.
No.
Vanilla-coloured and (to use a somewhat overused cliche) "porcelain-skinned". The former is just a term used by some Indians in order to give an (actually accurate) approximation of the woman's skin colour, but the latter is an actual, and frequently-used description. Perhaps it's something specific to "British" English rather than "American" English.
ok, i will offer a precise and specific summation of my beef: i think it is dumb that american born (or kanadian born, whatever) & raised brownz have to deal with stupid shit about being "dark" or injunctions to "stay out of the sun" from their parents and relatives. why? because no matter what shade of brown we are, we're not-white, end of story. i've never had a lady tell me, "wow razib, you're lookin' pretty light," cuz i stayed out of the sun (here in the northwest i've actually been mocked as pasty brown during the winter!). the fact that my mom wants me to stay out of the sun is a dumb anachronism. but i'm a dude, the fact that anna (and many women i have know of personally) have had to deal with "oh, too bad you're dark" reference is just obnoxious. there are no kalaw peasants in fields here, and the number of "vanilla" brownz is trivial to the point of non-existence in the USA (a few kashmirs, a rare pakistani or two [usually pashtun] or ashraf whose family didn't mix with south asian muslims). there are racial issues we have to deal with, and this color prejudice is totally idiotic, especially since there probably 0 correlation between color and SES in the USA (pakistanis have lower SES than south indians here, so i would bet a very small negative correlation). of course, whining won't change jack. but, i think it is important to be loud about it now and then so that the old skool get a reality check that in the land of sweet snow & gold flesh olive is positively scwharz (in sweden they call kurds and turks "black skulls").
Probably another transatlantic difference. Many of the majority people here in Britain certainly did regard South Asians as "black" when I was younger (and believe me, many of us jumped on the "black gangster" bandwagon as a result), but it's something else that's changed over the past decade, partially because of the massive increase in public and media profile of South Asians here, partially due to the disassociation of South Asians from what had previously been their African/Caribbean "allies" when racism was much more widespread, and partially just due to direct personal contact the "locals" have had with various desi groups over the years, especially in the case of English people who've grown up in a multiethnic environment over the past 30 years.
They don't necessarily think South Asians are white in the traditional sense of the term, but they are aware that a dark South Indian or Bangladeshi (yes I know not all people from these groups are dark, I'm generalising) looks quite different to the Italian/Mediterranean-looking Northies, both in terms of skin colour and facial features. The latter in particular will not be regarded as "black", apart from the point of view the racist types, of course.
As I've mentioned before, all this seems to be a much bigger deal over there in America, both in the majority society and from the perspective of South Asians there. It certainly seems to be a recurring theme on SM ! (This doesn't happen on British desi blogs/discussion forums, except in the case of the armchair jihadi nutters).
Maybe we've all just moved on from this to some extent -- let's hope the public perception of desis in the US improves enough for everyone there to be able to leave all this behind too, hopefully sooner rather than later ;)
jai, americans "in the know" know the difference. but very few. usually the ones who have many indian friends. so basically, the ones who know these differences are the ones for whom they are irrelevant (they aren't out to kick your ass or make fun of you). the ones from whom hostility is a problem don't distinguish. this is the same thing with the religion issue: educated people know the diff. between hindus and muslims, but the thugs do not.
and sikhs :)
p.s. my friend john derbyshire, when he was hiring programmers, actually wondered if there was a positive correlation between dark skin and intelligence...as the south indians tended to be brighter in his experience. within south india there is a positive correlation between education and light skin because of caste issues, but once you move to the USA, you have dark southies on a whole with more education that light skinned pakistani cab drivers. that's why the skin color heirarchy seemz so wack to a lot of us i think, it is so decoupled from reality (also, i believe that this effects brown-on-brown non-arranged hooking up, i don't think that americo-brownz put the same emphasis on light skin as their parents, check THE NEW YORK TIMES mariage pages to see what i mean).
to bring it back around to fugliness, as opposed to color
yeah I saw it, and I still thought she couldn't act. Only in Dev it was non-acting without makeup. If Kareena gets parole for Dev, then Karishma gets parole for Zubeidaa.
Jai, were you a bhangramuffin? :)
and jai, just so you know, i'm not saying that we should create an artificial catchall brown identity. but, that being said, the past few years have convinced me that people like anna, vinod, manish & abhi are creating a new pan-brown american identity, derived in part, but distinct from, the separate brown cultures of brownland.
like i said, i go by the nipple measure: if itz brown, you ain't light.
Perhaps what brown ppl really need is a good nipple-lightening cream.
DD, maybe Omkara will change your mind about her acting skills. Saif is BRILLIANT in that movie. just plain EVIL.
My mama ji (mom's brother) is very fair, with blue eyes and brown hair (as are many people in my mom's family). He grew up in India quite proud of his looks and complexion. It was the shock of his life when, after moving to the UK in the 60s (when he was in his 20s), he was accosted by a young English girl on the street one day, and called a 'blackie'. But I do agree things have changed tremendously in the UK since those days.
In Trinidad, during the British colonial period, admittance to offical functions was determined by a brown paper bag: darker than = stay outside; lighter than = please come in.
admittance to offical functions was determined by a brown paper bag: darker than = stay outside; lighter than = please come in.
I have been biting my tongue on this one as I wanted to bring this one up before but had chosen not to. Years ago, a friend of mine told me of similar brown bag rule applied in by some African American themselves, like a few sororities or even wihin the larger Creole culture. Same terminology.
Jai - I'm a northie myself and closer to Kareena than Parminder in colouring - and I'm not American. Wasn't being "nasty" about Kareena, just pointing out that I've always been confounded by why she's considered one of the prettiest actresses these days, and can only attribute this to admiration for her light complexion.
This part of the discussion was not about beating up on celebs as "fugly" (a game I refuse to get involved in) but rather about whether women of Parminder's complexion would even get the time of day in Bollywood.
You know Derbyshire from National Review! Wow! You should ask him and let me know what he thinks of Andrew Sullivan.
DesiDancer,
What about Kareena's role in Chameli?
razib.
and jai, you know that people from armenia & georgia get beat up in moscow for being "black" right? "light-skinned" kashmirs and punjabis are no lighter than people from the caucasus. in many parts of whiteland if you don't have a big pink mark on your face after you are slapped lightly, your black.
hmm. with that criteria my race is 'white.' but we're mongoloid and hella mixed; before with afghans (also white?) and after migration, to a much lesser extent, with pakistanis.
What about Kareena's role in Chameli?
IMO, it was horrible acting by her. I did not like the movie, the way it was made even though it had an interesting concept.
I am not a fan of her because of her acting skills. I walked out of the theater for Asoka even before the intermission, even I paid for the ticket.
razib:
oh yeah and you missed another (relatively?) paleface race in pakistan: aga khanis. not sure what are their ethnic roots. arab?
then there's the minorities near the karakorum/himalayan ranges like hunza and baltistanis. more mongoloid brothers.
Well since I've already delurked in that other thread, I'll comment on this.
Black people ARE also very much aware of various color gradiations. It is far less pronounced in America than it is in certain parts of Africa or in the west indies. African Americans don't really run to the store for fair and lovely creams. We sure do complain about it though. Though my view is probably tainted since, for a black person, I am not that dark and not nearly as negatively affected by the colorism in the community.
Black people always seem to make up little rhymes to explain racial issues in the community... like my previous "black don't crack." Here we use something like: "If you're white, alright, brown, stick around, black, get back!" And there were brown paper bag tests and fine-tooth comb tests back in the day.
Black high society was/is interesting and perhaps can be compared to current model minority communities. Essentially, members of the black bourgeois did not care if they were still "n****rs" to white society because within their own community (where they were very wealthy and thus shielded from a lot of racism) they were the cream of the crop. Light skin, euro features and all. Perhaps the colorism in the desi community is continued for similar reasons. Who cares what white america thinks about your skin color when your primary focus is your own ethnic community?
Since someone mentioned the nipple rule - did you know that nipple-lightening and pinkifying creams are popular in Japan? Women use them on their lips too, an