Its common for white people to give that type of response, dumbfounded amazement that racism is still quite common, because remember, we promulgated that racism is bad, so therefore it doesn't occur anymore. You must be a hyper-sensitive minority trying to play the race card anytime something doesn't go your way. Chal, whatever, karma is a bitch and everyone, including the goras, will get their bhari

I was considering condeming the attacker in fairly strong terms, but if he really is suffering from mental illness as mentioned in the main article, such behaviour wouldn't be appropriate. If he's ill, then he needs psychiatric treatment not reciprocal hatred.

However, people who undertake such attacks in full control of their faculties should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

It's terrible that Sikhs don't have a higher profile in the US -- both in the public eye and in the media (apart from a turbaned Sikh being somewhat dubiously referred to as "Omar" in a recent episode of Scrubs, and of course Spike Lee's last film which did a good job of briefly handling the "mistaken identity" problem). I guess if there aren't huge numbers of Sikhs around compared to other ethnic minorities, and the only people with beards and turbans other Americans are familiar with are the Taliban or OBL, unfortunately this is an inevitable consequence.

Since the rest of the population obviously isn't going to do the job for you, there needs to be a concerted, nationwide educational effort by either Sikh organisations and/or South Asians involved in the national media. South Asians as a whole had a lot of stupidity to deal with here in the UK too until GGM came along, and although that certainly didn't eradicate many of the problems (and we've had some new ones to face post-9/11 & post-7/7), it did do a hell of a lot to raise the profile of (South) Asians in the country as a whole and address many preconceptions. So someone there really needs to be dynamic and focused and go all-out to deal with the issue.

Not necessarily via a comedy show, of course (although that's one option), but certainly via some kind of coast-to-coast programming which will reach a sufficently wide audience and gain a sufficiently high profile. Assuming that's feasible, which is much easier said than done.....

Unfortunately there have been more attacks on Sikhs in California than any other state of the US including fatal attacks. (Correct me if I am wrong .. but I think my info is right) This could just be because CA probably has the highest population of Sikhs.

I was considering condeming the attacker in fairly strong terms,

No worries, I think I did that. ;)

but if he really is suffering from mental illness as mentioned in the main article, such behaviour wouldn't be appropriate. If he's ill, then he needs psychiatric treatment not reciprocal hatred.

Reciprocal hatred wasn't the look I was going for, in case anyone is curious. I'm just outraged and upset that this keeps happening, in my home state, no less.

Anna,

I'm just outraged and upset that this keeps happening, in my home state, no less.

It's going to keep on happening unless and until some South Asians in America really grab the bull by the horns and become much more assertive about dealing with these issues. In fact, until they become significantly more proactive about handling the perception and image of desis within the majority population per se (something I touched upon in the "colour" thread).

You guys need to take control of a) your public image, b) your depiction within the mainstream American media, and c) educating the wider population about the realities of South Asian culture, communities, religions, and history.

Nobody else is going to do the job for you.

We've had some success here in the UK over the past decade or so as you may know, so that's proof that it can indeed be achieved. The fact that, percentage-wise, there are significantly less of you in the US (compared to the black & Hispanic populations) substantially complicates matters, of course, but this does not mean the goal is impossible.

People don't realize that California isn't all sun and fun. According to the Southern Poverty Law center, it tracks 52 active hate groups in the state. Most in the country.

Maybe people from the Sikh community can team up with a organization such as this to pursue and promote awareness?

This reminds me of a conversation I overheard at the Pearson airport (Toronto) while waiting for my mom at the arrival terminal. A group of Sikhs came out through the gates, dressed in Indian clothing, big bearded, women with turbans also. There was an annoying blonde girl behind me with a man with a british accent. The conversation was as follows:

Annoying girl: Oh my, look who just came out… blah blah blah…. (proceeds with a very matter-of-fact tone) You know they’re not supposed to wash their hair, it’s part of their religion.

Brit dude: Really, I thought they weren’t supposed to cut it.

Annoying girl: No, it’s part of their religion!.. blah blah blah… in Pakistan they’re supposed to wear that thing, they’re Muslim, it’s part of their religion.

Brit dude: Errr, I thought they are Sikh, and they’re not supposed to cut their hair or something, but I don’t know if they are from Pakistan.

Annoying girl: Whatever man, I just don’t want them in my country!

At this point I turned around gave her a look, and moved to a different area. Normally I would have diplomtically confronted her, but I didn't have the energy that day nor did I want to greet my mom with pissed off energy. Oh did it take restraint!!

Sometimes I don’t know if I should even be shocked at how much ignorance there is out there!

And this is in a metropolis in Canada, where Sikhs have a relatively high profile and are even represented in the government!

Pardon my ignorance, do Sikhs wear black turbans ever? All sikhs I have seen to have white or other light colors. The darkest might be Manmohan Singh's trademark UN blue. But elite shia leaders like Nasrallah and Moqtada Sadr wear black usually.

I did see white on the heads of OBL and some Sunni insurgent leader in Iraq on TV... So I guess that's not a very helpful distinction.

karma is a bitch and everyone.... will get their bhari

I think a lot of the racial tension in the UK, France, Spain involving people from former colonies would be some sort of 'bhari' for colonialism, or the beginnings of it.

There are indications that Thompson, who may suffer from mental illness, believed Singh was a member of the Taliban

Aren't they also attributing "mental illness" as the cause for that Pakistani-American running amok at the Jewish center in Seattle ? Must be something going around...

Not to detract from the tragedy that story is, its just another example of an idiotic racist a55hole that should be locked up for life, but just found it ironic that a Sikh would say that "they just want to live in peace" when so many actively promote or, at the minimum, symphatize with anti-Indian organizations, and celebrate the life of a terrorist, Bhindrawale. Many Gurudwaras openly display signs calling for Khalistan, and even framed pictures of terrorists such as Bhindrawale. Guess they feel it is as important to respect these animals as it is the Gurus. Tragedy? yes, do they want to live in peace? A good many do not act like it.

An answer to Navratan's query - yes, Sikhs can wear black turbans; there's definitely no color restraints. While the colors of white, blue and orange do have some meanings; generally speaking, any color is a go. I know in the 70s some disagreements in the community arose when patterned dastars/pugh/turbans became the rage. Critics started saying it was too fashionable and took away from the meaning and commitment of a pugh.

Personally speaking, as a woman who wears a turban and who is also inflicted with a love of style and fashion, I always color coordinate. What can I say, I'm a New Yorker!!

Not to detract from the tragedy that story is

...and yet...you did.

You guys need to take control of a) your public image, b) your depiction within the mainstream American media, and c) educating the wider population about the realities of South Asian culture, communities, religions, and history.

I'd say, each of us should spend a couple of years (at least) dating lots of white guys/gals and bring as little desi baggage as possible into those relationships. At the end of it all, I think lots of the majority population will be very well-educated about desis and hopefully have a positive impression :) Heh heh...

How difficult is it, considering the financial power Sikhs have in the United States, to come up with a Public Service message that can be televised everywhere, all over the US done by promenient Sikh folks in key positions of power out there? I know for sure one of my friends who is Bloomberg's right hand man and wears a turban to match his tie everyday :-) would gladly participate.

After 9/11 happened the Sikh Coalition of America distributed leaflets explaining who they were and stating they weren't Muslim in the NYC area. However I'm unsure how effective that is. We, our generation of Mutineers has the power to raise this kind of dough to make this happen. I'm just completely unaware how much just such a campaign would cost.

Paging Preet Singh...that educational short film/documentary of yours needs to get shown all over the place, ASAP.

As an interesting aside, I heard a radio broadcast some while back, where a Sikh man was actually calling for the men in his community to cut their hair and remove their turbans, stating that it was a practice initiated by the Khalsa sect, and not Guru Nanak, but more practically, just do it for safety reasons. America and in particular, white America, has a defense strategy that's unfortunately, turban = bad. Comedian Richard Jeni callously quipped after learning Sikh's wore turbans too, and they weren't muslim terrorists, "What, do we need a handbook of turbans now?"

America needs to be educated, but how many people have to be injured/killed to teach the lesson?

SM Intern, perhaps. Suchaiya hamasha karvi hondi hai.

I'd say, each of us should spend a couple of years (at least) dating lots of white guys/gals and bring as little desi baggage as possible into those relationships.

i'm doing my part.

re: about "education." part of the problem is that those who can be educated are educated. the types who go on brown-bashing jaunts are not listening to PSA announcements, nor do they put much stock in their literacy skills. fundamentally, the problem is one of confusion and impulse control by the less intelligent sorts in society. they see sikhs and their cognitive mechanisms trigger and they go into action before their reflective mind kicks into high gear. how can we alleviate this problem? saturate their mental landscape, which i think living in an area where day to day interactions with sikhs is the norm. they might not listen to PSAs or read much, but they can be decent people face-to-face if you are humanized. the problem, as jai pointed to, is that our numbers as brownz don't allow this sort of humanization as easily and regularly as in the UK.

p.s. i want to emphasize the importance of visual cues to these sorts. my parents are muslim and they live in the seattle area, but they didn't encounter any racism, nor did many people at their mosque. rather, it was the sikhs who bore the brunt of the threats and violence because they dress differently.

Pardon my ignorance, do Sikhs wear black turbans ever? All sikhs I have seen to have white or other light colors. The darkest might be Manmohan Singh's trademark UN blue. But elite shia leaders like Nasrallah and Moqtada Sadr wear black usually.

Navratan, your ignorance here has nothing to do with the color of turbans. In reaching for a public example of a Sikh, you pick the Indian PM. For Shias, you zero in on a pair extremists, and you make it sound as if they are the standard of Islam. It's the equivalent of saying, "notable Christian leaders like Pat Robertson and Jesse Helms" or "elite Hindu teachers like Bal Thackeray."

The larger point of this article, as I see it, is that the act of wearing a turban makes no one (Sikh, Muslim or Erykah Badu) a terrorist. The suffering many Sikhs have had to go through since 9/11 should be an opportunity for a partnership between Sikhs and Muslims, and indeed between all people who oppose the formation of a persecuting society. We all need to be saying, "Fuck this, I don't care what color the turban is, you can't persecute people for their religious beliefs or their sense of fashion."

In response to Jai (comment #2), I don't see a *qualitative* difference between this stabbing in California and the recent hate incident in Oxford. In Oxford there was no physical violence involved, but the two incidents are in other ways similar: both were attacks based on misrecognition of Sikhs by people who may or may not have been mentally disturbed or intoxicated, respectively.

Things may be better in terms of recognition/visibility in the UK, but they aren't *that* much better, I don't think.

btw, in emphasizing the importance of dress, let me offer another somewhat similar example: during the riots over the babri mosque/ram temple years back, bohra ismailis were often more obvious and clear targets than sunni muslims because the latter often dressed like the general population, while orthodox (about 70-80%) of bohra men dress in a very specific and clearly obvious manner which sets them apart as muslims. of course, the bohra leadership (the dai) did not get involved in the babri mosque/ram temple issue at all, the community tends to stay clear of communal controversies.

My girlfriend is black and in the starting she had all the questions in the world about why, how and what etc. I cleared all those and more from her friends. Now she wears a KARA (steel bangle worn by all sikhs) ;-)

I guess it is easy for the crowd from colleges and universities to have a better understanding of Sikhism than most. At Rutgers Uni, they have RUSIKH org which does a lot of good work and promotes awareness.

To think that everyone around the world knows who is President of USA but ask Americans who is the PM of India?

How come Pattie Kaur has not posted here yet? Does she no longer lurk here? I kind of miss her.

Absolutely horrible that such things can still happen in the US.

I've seen Sikhs wear all colours of turbans, usually to coordinate with their ties or shirts - very trendy some of them can be.

AFAIK, black turbans are worn by sayyids (those who claim descent from the prophet) among the Shia clergy.

I think it goes without saying that it would be just as awful if the person who was killed *had* belonged to a Muslim sect (turban wearing or not) and was assumed to be Taliban because of it. I'll never forget the time a half-crazy guy took out a knife on a Sudanese student waiting for the campus bus with me a few days after 9/11 and ranted about "you Bin Laden types" (luckily said student fled).

found it ironic that a Sikh would say that "they just want to live in peace" when so many actively promote or, at the minimum, symphatize with anti-Indian organizations, and celebrate the life of a terrorist, Bhindrawale. Many Gurudwaras openly display signs calling for Khalistan,

A story about Sikhs, and ten comments in, there we have it. Not bad.

Stop blowing things out of proportion with sweeping statements like - "What is this world coming to, when you aren’t safe in your own driveway?". This is probably an isolated incident and IF it isn't, it should be a wake up call to the members of the Sikh Community to wake up and spread the message. Or just change the way they live. I for one would rather be safe than be overly demonstrative about my religion.

I see a LOT of comments about white racist assholes. Seriously, its again a very very small percentage of the whole. Again, the IMAGE of Osama Bin Laden in his white turban has been ingrained in their head. What do you expect them to do? Know the distinction between the Sikhs and the Muslims. Why should they?

I watch a LOT of BBC, love British comedy, love British Football and British music and yet I couldnt make out the difference between an Irish and Scottish accent. A Scot was very offended that I thought he was from Ireland. But he laughed it off saying that he couldnt possibly expect me to know. In the same way, why are the whites expected to know the difference between the Sikhs and the Muslims.

Besides, I have lived in India for 22 years and I know a LOT of Indians who cant make out between Marathis and Gujarathis. Tamilians and Telugus.

Prashanth,

i am not one to see white racists everywhere, but i think your comment and your analogies are out of line and not appropriate. yes, muslims and sikhs can be confused, but, the difference is obvious after being told one or two distinguishing points. it really is egregious that people get attacked and sometimes killed for how they dress.

DT2004:

I wasn't going to respond to your post (#10), I know I'm going to regret responding, and I'm not even going to address your main point, but since theking singh has already called you out on it, I just want to say you're showing the typical hatred towards Sikhs that unfortunately way too many Punjabi Hindus have. Since you're a 2nd gen, I assume you picked this up from your family/relatives. I think it boils down to the fact that the two communities have charted very different paths in terms of how much to assimilate (at the expense of losing their identity) into the 'Indian mainstream', and also how much of Punjabi language and traditional culture to hold on to. Furthermore, some Punjabi Hindus seem threatened that Sikhs would try to assert their own identity and religion and not be 'on the same page' as the Punjabi Hindus on every issue. Many Punjabi Hindus would like (and have tried) to dismiss Sikhi as just a derivative of (and nowhere near as pristine as) the version of Hinduism practiced by them. Bollywood and the Indian television industry, in which Punjabi Hindus are overwhelmingly represented behind the scenes as well as on-screen, is particulary merciless towards Sikhs and Sikhi.

Razib,

it really is egregious that people get attacked and sometimes killed for how they dress

Couldn't agree with you more. But my point is this: These sort of things CAN happen. Didn't the policemen in London mistake a Brazilian Electrician to be a suicide bomber because of his large backpack and also because of his features.

If this is going to become more common I believe its up to the Sikhs to adapt themselves.

DT2004:

Furthermore, not to defend Bhindranwale IN THE SLIGHTEST (I have NO comment to make on him), but purely in linguistic terms, I bet you many Punjabi Hindus would not even understand one of his speeches, so far removed has the community become from its own language.

Thanks, Sona.

Mr. K,

Pardon my ignorance, do Sikhs wear black turbans ever? All sikhs I have seen to have white or other light colors. The darkest might be Manmohan Singh's trademark UN blue. But elite shia leaders like Nasrallah and Moqtada Sadr wear black usually.

Navratan, your ignorance here has nothing to do with the color of turbans. In reaching for a public example of a Sikh, you pick the Indian PM. For Shias, you zero in on a pair extremists, and you make it sound as if they are the standard of Islam. It's the equivalent of saying, "notable Christian leaders like Pat Robertson and Jesse Helms" or "elite Hindu teachers like Bal Thackeray."

I think my ignorance was indeed restricted to the color of turbans. I didn't pick the Indian PM as an example of a turban wearer, but simply as the darkest turban I have seen. The hate of the haters is born from watching the Moqtada Sadr, OBL types,

The larger point of this article, as I see it, is that the act of wearing a turban makes no one (Sikh, Muslim or Erykah Badu) a terrorist. The suffering many Sikhs have had to go through since 9/11 should be an opportunity for a partnership between Sikhs and Muslims, and indeed between all people who oppose the formation of a persecuting society. We all need to be saying, "Fuck this, I don't care what color the turban is, you can't persecute people for their religious beliefs or their sense of fashion."

I think we all have said this on this forum and else where many times. Doesn't seem to stop the crimes. I was wondering aloud about a different idea. I haven't seen muslims wear turbans in the US, though they might wear it in the home country. Sikhs end up receiving the hate of the racists. It is equally bad for Shia to pay for the extremists actions as it is for Sikhs. But Shia are largely safe because of not having identifying turbans (though they suffer from other identifying factors). Why not let the Sikhs have some safety too?

I would never suggest that Sikhs stop wearing turbans like the Shias do in order to stem hate crimes... Maybe if people can atleast leave alone the light turbans (all turbans they see here) even if they ideally should leave alone all turbans anywhere....

Anyway, it's a moot point because of the OBL example. But please don't jump to conclusions

If this is going to become more common I believe its up to the Sikhs to adapt themselves.

easy to say in your shoes, isn't it? i'm speaking as someone who does believe that ethnic minorities in western countries should adapt and assimilate (and disappear demographically). but no matter my political beliefs, when it comes to day to day interactions i'm not going to pipe and say "stop dressing like that!" right after i hear about someone being killed for how they dress. there are plenty of groups that dress "strangely" in america. amish and hasidic jews come to mind.

Folks:

What Prashanth is basically saying is that Sikhs should remove their turbans, cut their hair, and shave off their beards...oh, I mean ADAPT themselves.

OK, leaving aside what I said for a moment, isn't Bal Thackeray indeed a notable Hindu leader, whether I like it or not? Isn't Pat Robertson a well known Christian leader, regardless of his bench pressing. If he were not, why do people care about what he says? It's not just because of the content. Many people say whackier things.

i say bring the comment box that used to be on the left part of the site where conversations would always roll back and forth. one could be devoted to "all things punjabi." :)

Sometimes I wonder what kind of jobs we all have that we can sit around and furiously write these posts to each other in amazingly rapid real time. And that goes for me too.

tech jobz :)

Razib:

THAT was impressive (the speed of your response).

tx.

and look hooz talking, re: speed of response.

Back to work for me.

DT2004

The next time an unfortunate Hindu man is stabbed in the neck by a racist and people say that Hindus just want to live in the peace, maybe someone can point out that many Hindus actively gloat and promote a politics of hatred and mass pogroms against Muslims in India. I have lost count of the number of times I've heard Hindus amongst my friends and family revel in the acts of bestiality commited under Modi. So what's the deal? That man isn't innocent because of the crassness of others? What a putrid and rancid morality.

Prashant,

These sorts of things CAN happen so Sikhs should adapt themselves?

How do you suggest Sikhs do that? Change the way they dress or not wear turbans? Because some ignoramus doesn’t want to learn what religion he/she belongs to

Most were amused and curious, handing us more food than we could eat in three lifetimes (God bless the Sikhs)

Dani California,
Every year at the Sikh Day Parade in NYC, they give out soooo much food, water, soda cans its insane. People walk away with bag-fulls of goodies and wait for the next year. I've been randomly asked at my father's gift shop abou t my "good sikh people" and our parade

Indians in general have a problem with staring (especially the older crowd), dont take it the wrong way. Glad you had fun and I am hopeful that despite the little rudeness you would go this year again with more whiteys as you put it and enjoy. All are welcome and its good to ask questions. As for going in the temple, I am SURE that nobody would mind if you do go in, just ask somebody to help you through :-)

@Razib, Amitabh:

Guilty as charged. I guess the answer lies somewhere between having to invest in a large scale media program and interacting more with the people around them. But, I don't see these crimes going down anytime soon.

Many Sikhs did actually cut their hair and shave their beards after the riots/pogroms following Indira Gandhi's assassination and remember that period bitterly today. There is a fair amount of shame and humiliation involved in cutting off one's hair for many Sikhs (partly because it was associated at the time with having your hair/beard cut off forcibly by bigots). So I don't think many of them would take kindly to the suggestion that they just have to shave and fit in.

And I don't think any of us would want to live in the US if it became the sort of society where you had to wipe out all traces of "foreignness" or else risk racist attacks...

Dani California, I can just imagine the food flowing at the Sikh festival...mmm, langar food!

Stop blowing things out of proportion with sweeping statements like

If ANYONE here is responsible for blowing things and making sweeping statements...

it should be a wake up call to the members of the Sikh Community to wake up and spread the message. Or just change the way they live. I for one would rather be safe than be overly demonstrative about my religion.

No, that's not sensational at all. What an offensive opinion. Where or how far should we take this brilliant strategy? I guess Muslim girls in hijab who get harassed deserve it, because they were "overly demonstrative" about religion? Lunacy.

This reminds me of how rape victims are slandered with, "She asked for it. Look at how she was dressed..." etc. Everyone should be able to express themselves sartorially or otherwise, without fear of violent reprisal.

"And I don't think any of us would want to live in the US if it became the sort of society where you had to wipe out all traces of "foreignness" or else risk racist attacks..."

What do you mean, if it became, I think there's evidence it's pretty much there. LIke someone said earlier, I think some sort of happy medium is required. If a certain style of dress triggers negative thinking (however erroneous that thinking is, it exists none the less) that could prove fatal.

Also, I believe the only people to go to the extent of violence are those with diminished mental capacity, and moreover, those that have nothing to lose. If a turban'd, bearded, dark skinned man boards the Wall Street subway stop, I'm sure more than one of those financial execs wanna take a stab, but don't because they've got jobs and family and lives to think about.

Anyhow, it's not a position I'm personally in, so I'm not about yell out "stop dressing like that" But I think some folks have to think whether or not the "juice is worth the squeeze." But I understand the frustration because ideally, it's not a decision that one should have to make.

Hey thanks for letting us know and keep us posted of the updates. . .I pray everything works out and the little granddaughter quickly forgets the such a horrible day. . . .

A big problem is the bowling alone scenario Anna referred to, and the segmentation of the population Razib referred to. I am unlikely to run into people who don't know who Sikhs are, let alone who think they are Taliban, or that Taliban should simply be stabbed in the neck. I do make it a habit to cultivate as much accurate and detailed information about all kinds of cultures, not just my own, and bring them up as appropriate. I do this mostly b/c it's a good way to gather string on more interesting information, and I like to play amateur cultural anthropologist, but I find it also spreads understanding. Naturally, this only works with people who are willing to talk and listen and share.

How you crack more solid barriers, however, is still beyond me. We live in an increasingly unneighborly culture, especially in suburbia ( I think both rural areas and urban areas tend to be more neighorly). The dating idea is cute but slightly impractical, there's only a couple of million of us and we're not exactly famed for our sleeping around abilities as a group. I guess being patient and not keeping to ourselves and getting involveed with the larger community---harkens on my constant political harping on the notion of formulating desi political priorities in terms of principles instead of interests.

I find the whole conversation about Sikhs elevating their profile and public perception slightly distasteful. We (including Sikhs) would be better off if we spend our time on stopping random acts of violence against innocent people than in trying to find ways to raise the public perception of Sikhs so the right kind of people can be targeted.

@Anna:

I guess you missed my apology some where there! It was written in haste.

I find the whole conversation about Sikhs elevating their profile and public perception slightly distasteful. We (including Sikhs) would be better off if we spend our time on stopping random acts of violence against innocent people than in trying to find ways to raise the public perception of Sikhs so the right kind of people can be targeted.

Are you saing Sikhs distancing themselves from Muslims is unfair to brown Muslims?

Are you saing Sikhs distancing themselves from Muslims is unfair to brown Muslims?

Its in poor taste. Akin to talks of Sikhs taking off their turbans and shaving their beards.

The dating idea is cute but slightly impractical, there's only a couple of million of us and we're not exactly famed for our sleeping around abilities as a group.

kama sutra? you know ppl prefer brown sugar!

We (including Sikhs) would be better off if we spend our time on stopping random acts of violence against innocent people than in trying to find ways to raise the public perception of Sikhs so the right kind of people can be targeted.

point taken, but i doubt that raising awareness of sikhs would result in muslims being targeted because the vast majority of american muslims don't stick out as much as sikhs do. but like i said, part of the problem is that the people who need to be targeted just don't think, or think straight, in the first please.

I for one would rather be safe than be overly demonstrative about my religion.

Interestingly that seems to be what this Jewish group in Norway is asking its members to do:

Jews warned against harassment

The Mosaic Religious Community has advised its Jewish members against speaking Hebrew loudly on the streets of Oslo or wearing Jewish emblems. The suggestion has infuriated some in the membership.

It comes after a Jewish man wearing a kippah, or yarmulke, was assaulted on an Oslo street Saturday.Link

Interestingly people were quick to assume or imply that the attacker was white... ironic in this thread...

I completely agree with Anna (Comment #. 46) and ALM (Comment #. 49 and 52).

Saheli (Comment #. 48) has a good point - more engagement with the mainstream and local politics will definitely even though it does not provide full protection - nothing does. Probably, the best option available. Jewish community is a good example. They are very embedded in the American psyche and politics, sure they are mostly white and that helps. Every one knows the Mel Gibson's utterances.

Prashanth, Irish and Scots have very different and distinct accents but then I have spent time in Scotland, and had Irish friends. Man, seriously you need smarter friends to hang around - distinguihing a Marathi, Tamil, and Telugu takes 30 seconds.

Interestingly people were quick to assume or imply that the attacker was white... ironic in this thread...

:)

Correction: I meant Maratha.

@Kush Tandon

No no no..between a Marathi and a Gujarathi. Tamilian and a Telugu. Two different issues. See. Not too hard. And besides, I think you missed the point completely. My point is that these attacks will definitely continue to happen. One way or the other. Unfortunate but true.

I'm guilty of that too. I also thought the DC sniper was white too.

My point is that these attacks will definitely continue to happen. One way or the other. Unfortunate but true.

That does not mean you stop living your life and your core beliefs. No one can be hijacked.

I think entering mainstream politics/ activities and visibility for any group is the way to go. Abhi, rightfully so is a big proponent of entering politics - He wants to be a US Senator after he has been to Mars, just like John Glenn.

He wants to be a US Senator after he has been to Mars, just like John Glenn

glenn went to marz? dude, i need to catch up on my physical science!

Very sad. I am NO fan of religion (story for another day/thread), but defend to the end peoples’ right to believe and dress, etc. as they wish.

But I agree with the comment someone made about Sikhs and other Indian-Americans starting to put their financial clout to use – well, to use beyond building competing temples/etc. in every Metro area (which Dr. Shah/Singh donated the most, aare dammit??) and renting out the Hilton for 6 figure weddings, that is. ;-)

Use the cash politically, use it help educate the ignorant about who Sikhs are, use it to give back and integrate better with the communities that provide you your livelihood, etc.

Remember the "Dot-Busters" years ago in New Jersey? Mostly local black and hispanic youths attacking Indian immigrants. But the desi community wised up and began to reach out to the local residents. You cannot just profit off the local community, you have to engage them and not isolate yourself. Our entrepreneurial skill and success is wonderful and to be admired, but one must work on communicating and integrating effectively with the communities in which you live/work/prosper.

PS - Hi A N N A! Sorry i did not drop you a line to discuss the whole Flaming Youth/Sonic Lips issue. The man had me out on the road, not sleeping much.

I'm guilty of that too. I also thought the DC sniper was white too.

Don't feel so bad... several people including the bumbling Maryland Police chief Moose had that same notion, despite there being eyewitnesses who saw Mohammed and Malvo driving away, as voiced by Phil Donohue's infamous line: "You're not going to like to hear this, but this is a white guy." People are quite comfortable with the idea of a white serial killer or racist psychopath...

People are quite comfortable with the idea of a white serial killer or racist psychopath

racism = race + power. non-whites have no power, so they can't be racist. QED.

Go figure. I grew up in the armpit of america, no make that the perineum of america aka the deep south, and never had any racial problems (knock on wood), and here, this guy lives in on of the most progressive states and this happens. I definitely feel sorry for the misconceptions regarding the Sikhs.

racism = race + power. non-whites have no power, so they can't be racist. QED

Depends on who is in the majority. ALl racial groups are capable of it based on that context.

No, that's not sensational at all. What an offensive opinion. Where or how far should we take this brilliant strategy? I guess Muslim girls in hijab who get harassed deserve it, because they were "overly demonstrative" about religion? Lunacy

Good point ANNA. Why stop at the outside symbols of faith too?

When all the Sikhs and Hijabi wearing girls have been hidden away in shame and fear, what are we going to say when we get attacked for simply being a brown skinned 'Arab' lookalike? Hindus Sikhs and Muslims have been abused and attacked even when they are clean shaven and non Hijab wearing.

And maybe those ladies in New Jersey should have stopped wearing bindis back in the old days, that would have saved them from being beaten up by the dot bashers. I mean how could they have been so provocative by wearing those dots on their heads?

I'm just a regular Hindu with a regular integrated family. And even we suffered abuse where we lived from time to time in England. And it still happens. Maybe we should scrub our faces until they're raw and then rub chalk dust into our skin so we won't provoke people with our curry coloured skin.

ALl racial groups are capable of it based on that context.

only whites dehumanize the hypercolonized Other via exploitation and systemtization of heirarchical power relationships implemented via rationalistic linear "scientific" thinking.

i apologize for the joke above. sincerely. this is a serious thread. sometimes i lose control....

best.

only whites dehumanize the hypercolonized Other via exploitation and systemtization of heirarchical power relationships implemented via rationalistic linear "scientific" thinking.

Oh come on mate, your not serious. I think your being a leftist spoor lam.

razib is correct on the technical definition of "racism". Anyone can be a bigot/prejudiced, but you must be in a position to affect outcomes based on your views to be a racist. Ahh, the ivy-league sociology classes i was once fortunate to take. :-)

only whites dehumanize the hypercolonized Other via exploitation and systemtization of heirarchical power relationships implemented via rationalistic linear "scientific" thinking.

You missed your calling being a spokesperson for the New Black Panthers... ;-).

they have panthers in india too. only they're brown and are called leopards. the new brown panthers.

egregious comment. done just to use that word today.

When all the Sikhs and Hijabi wearing girls have been hidden away in shame and fear, what are we going to say when we get attacked for simply being a brown skinned 'Arab' lookalike? Hindus Sikhs and Muslims have been abused and attacked even when they are clean shaven and non Hijab wearing.

But, to my knowledge Sikhs weren't such big targets for all out violence pre-9/11. I'm not saying they should assimilate, give in, sell out their beliefs, etc.. But Sikhs are targeted
not for religious beliefs, but rather a high visual correlation (higher than an a shaven, non turbaned desi) to the image associated with the 9-11 attacks. Somehow I feel the slippery slope argument doesn't have clear cut applicability in this case.

I know many muslims that cut their beards after 9-11, sure maybe in a perfect, righteous sense, they shouldn't have had to, but they weighed the pros and cons, took in the reality of the world they [we] live in, and made a decision.

Think of it this way - if there's a hole in your roof and rain is pouring through, yes it's good to find out who built the roof, and why the hole formed and figure out ways to build better roofs in the future, but you also want to fix THAT hole to stop getting wet!

And maybe those ladies in New Jersey should have stopped wearing bindis back in the old days, that would have saved them from being beaten up by the dot bashers. I mean how could they have been so provocative by wearing those dots on their heads?

I think "dotbusters" or dotcrushers or whatever they were called, were using the term symbolically rather than literally. I don't think they were checking for bindhis before assaulting, robbing, and whatever else they did. So removing the bindhis wouldn't solve the problem.

In the same way, why are the whites expected to know the difference between the Sikhs and the Muslims.

They're expected to know (1) not to attack people b/c of their religion and (2) that members of the Taliban are unlikely to be standing around the USA, waiting for some vigilante to come and attack them.

As for the profile of the Sikhs, I was a founding member of SALDEF, years before 9/11, back when nobody else was doing general outreach. Since then, several newer organizations have come around, each of which does its part. However, it is probably unrealistic to expect every American to know who a Sikh is before there is a major Sikh movie star or athlete as a role model. Unlike the US, desis in general and Sikhs in particular are too few in number. And honestly, Jai, the fact that not all of the Sikhs are keshdari makes it harder since there are fewer visible examples for people to encounter.

to my knowledge Sikhs weren't such big targets for all out violence pre-9/11

only partly true. There was hate crime after the Iranian hostage crisis and the first Iraq war, and even between. However, hate crime did rise considerably after 9/11, and has remained higher than before.

one thing. after 9-11 a commuter train between boston and NYC was stopped and a sikh onboard was taken into custody by the authorities. there is no excuse for that.

Ennis, per my previous comment, the effort by Sikhs (and the rest of us desis) to enhance awareness must start at local community levels. Put some money and energy behind it. No need for a movie star or athlete (and Vikram Chatwal or that wacky hipster Waris do NOT count!) to help develop understanding.

They're expected to know (1) not to attack people b/c of their religion and (2) that members of the Taliban are unlikely to be standing around the USA, waiting for some vigilante to come and attack them.

They (all people who wish to live in the United States, not just whites)are expected to know (1) not to attack ANY people (2) that taking the law into ones hands is only an option when you are facing an imminent and immediate threat to lives. Law and order is just that - law and order. Attacking someone because they 'looked' like a terrorist, yet did not display any actions that gave an indication of immediate danger means you're imposing on someone else's freedom and civil liberties.

HMF -

Sikhs were pretty big targets after 9/11. At least two Sikhs were murdered in the immediate aftermath, and scores of others were harassed or beaten. As the Sikh population is only about 100,000 in the entire country, I'd say, per capita, there more incidents of hate crimes against Sikhs than any other group.

Personally, i was in countless verybal and physical altercations (mostly at bars when people drunkenly actually say the things that they wouldn't say soberly), and the front door to my father's practice was shot out twice.

So, what to do? Although things have generally gotten a lot better in the last couple years (but for this most recent tragedy), it is still incumbent upon the Sikh community to be more active lest the next attack(god forbid) bring on an onslaught of violence again. Although I thoroughly disagree with Prashanth on nearly every point and don't really accept the "written in haste" apology, I do agree that we need to do more. The Sikh Colation and SALDEF are very active in their respective circles, but I think forays into pop culture break down barriers more quickly and effectively than any PSA. Many friends asked me about Bend it Like Beckham, or the guy from the Spike Lee movie and Life Aquatic. I had one girl try to pick me up by telling me that the sexiest scene in film history was when the Sikh in The English Patient let his hair down to get it on. These are the types of things that stick in peoples' memory, create a sense of normalcy, and reach younger audiences. So, PSA, active campaigns, community festivals, forays into politics and the law are all awesome....we are definitely making steps. But, i am waiting for our own Monty Panesar to play in the NFL or NBA to make a huge impact....or perhaps an oscar worthy movie about Ranjit Singh.

I think "dotbusters" or dotcrushers or whatever they were called, were using the term symbolically rather than literally. I don't think they were checking for bindhis before assaulting, robbing, and whatever else they did. So removing the bindhis wouldn't solve the problem.

Lord Have Mercy. Talk about missing the point. Mister, the whole point was the racist bastards were targetting them because they were different. You seem to have some kind of problem with Sikhs who get stabbed in the neck and shot dead by psychopaths simply because they wear their turbans and then say, please, allow me to not be stabbed in the neck and shot dead.

What an utterly fatuous line of argument. Fatuity is excusable, crassness when you go around effectively telling them to shut up and stop whining isn't.

only partly true. There was hate crime after the Iranian hostage crisis and the first Iraq war, and even between. .

Interesting. But was it steadily higher than the amount of hate crime against non-turbaned, clean shaven desis? But I'm all for education, and I'd venture to say that pre-9/11, your average American didn't even know what a Sikh was.

Something totally tangential though, the report says he's 40 and a grandfather?!? Someone got bizay.

HAH. Ennis...as i was typing, you took the words right off my keyboard. Apparently, we think alike.

And, I didn't know you helped found SALDEF. Thanks for your good work.

Lord Have Mercy. Talk about missing the point. Mister, the whole point was the racist bastards were targetting them because they were different. You seem to have some kind of problem with Sikhs who get stabbed in the neck and shot dead by psychopaths simply because they wear their turbans and then say, please, allow me to not be stabbed in the neck and shot dead.

That's totally right. I guess I was knocked unconscious and some bleeding heart liberal typed these statements, falsifying my identity:

"Anyhow, it's not a position I'm personally in, so I'm not about yell out "stop dressing like that"" (#47)

"But I understand the frustration because ideally, it's not a decision that one should have to make." (#47)

"I'm not saying they should assimilate, give in, sell out their beliefs, etc" (#74) -- ooo look at that, symmetery

It seems more like you've missed my point. But if you'd like to lump me in the intolerant, hater group, by all means go ahead.

Ennis, per my previous comment, the effort by Sikhs (and the rest of us desis) to enhance awareness must start at local community levels. Put some money and energy behind it. No need for a movie star or athlete (and Vikram Chatwal or that wacky hipster Waris do NOT count!) to help develop understanding.

Apu, as I pointed out, SALDEF is now a decade old. But America is large, and it is a long and slow process to enlighten people at the retail level.

Vikram also isn't much help - he has been trimming his beard to a Don Johnson-eque scruff for a long time, and near as I can tell has stopped wearing his turban and perhaps even cut his hair. I would have asked Sant Singh the last time I saw him, but it's not the sort of thing that it's polite to ask somebody's father.

I would have asked Sant Singh the last time I saw him, but it's not the sort of thing that it's polite to ask somebody's father.

ASK! ASK! :D

Although I thoroughly disagree with Prashanth on nearly every point and don't really accept the "written in haste" apology, I do agree that we need to do more. The Sikh Colation and SALDEF are very active in their respective circles, but I think forays into pop culture break down barriers...create a sense of normalcy, and reach younger audiences...

Fo shizzle, ma Sizzle.

And Ennis (re: SALDEF), maximum respect!

Stop making trouble, little chickadee ;)

Hi Ennis, SALDEF sounds great, i'd like to learn more - we need more grassroots efforts - it will take time. But all true change requires hard work, participation and MONEY.

Not to mention Vikram's friendship with Puff Daddy/P-Diddy (or as my friend says, B-Shit!). But I think young Vik still wears his color-coordinated turbans. I dig Waris though.

As for Sant - how on earth did he beat the tax cheat rap? Or did he not? Not all of our peeps do us proud.

But was it steadily higher than the amount of hate crime against non-turbaned, clean shaven desis? But I'm all for education, and I'd venture to say that pre-9/11, your average American didn't even know what a Sikh was.

Yes, during those periods it was since we were always a more visible target.
As for education, many things have changed. Sikhs are more visible in NYC - I was once approached by a casting agent to play a Sikh taxi driver in the opening scene of a medium budget big star rom-com. But that's a story for another day.

You must be in a position to affect outcomes based on your views to be a racist.

Anyone who can pull a trigger or swing a bat is in a position to affect outcomes...

branch dravidian - amendment, you must be in a position to *systematically* affect outcomes to be a "racist" - what you describe is a violent, bigoted thug. Nothing to be forgiven of course, but just being technical about the definition of racism.

Branch,

Yes but they need to break the law flagrantly in order to do it, where as those with power can affect outcomes to much less fanfare. Why? because every time a victim of racism ever suggests it, he's accused of "playing the race card"

Ennis,

I'm curious. And this question is out of sheer curiosity, but has the "Maybe we should cut our beards and hair, out of safety concerns" ever entered the Sikh community internal dialogue? Referring to my original post, (#16) I actually did hear a Sikh man say this over a radio show. Albeit, that was much much closer to 9-11, and the Arizona gas station incident, when I had heard it. I'm curious if it has actually been discussed, or was that man an severe outlier?

HMF - well put. Systematic and institutional influence is where real racism lies, not with one-off criminals and bigoted thugs.

To your next point - i felt terrible when one of my employees awkardly put on a baseball cap over his turban 2 days after 9/11. A wonderfully sweet man, my heart broke when saw the look on his face and sulked about San Jose (as you say Anna - this was CALI!).

I, for one, have never heard any serious call for Sikhs to change their appearance. If you look to the history of Sikhs, the distinct appearance, turban and beard, was instituted to create a sense of fraternity and responsibility in the face of rampant religious persectution, conversion, and the very real danger of assimilation. The problems we face here in America are trivial in comparison.

That said - I know of people who did cut there hair and shave, and I know of people who, while still wearing the turban, severly curtailed thier every day activity because they personally could not take the pressure. Yet more (like me) started to sometimes wear baseball hats or bandanas normally reserved for sports when they went out socially just to avoid the inevitable confrontations that took place when wearing a turban. These were solely personal decisions. Plenty of others took the new hostilities they faced as a way to educate, strengthen community bonds and raise awareness levels of the Sikh identity.

I'd venture to guess that the guy on the radio was an outlier...and I think that most practicing Sikhs would roundly denounced him for opining such sentiments on public airwaves, especially given the cultural and religious significance and history of the appearance.

How you crack more solid barriers, however, is still beyond me. We live in an increasingly unneighborly culture, especially in suburbia ( I think both rural areas and urban areas tend to be more neighorly).

"Better zoning laws stop hate crimes!" and "Train culture, not car culture!" make terrible rally chants, but they're both probably true/good ideas :)

Anyway, without knowing the details, I would bet each of the following are factors here:

1) The heat (crime goes up with hot weather--look it up)
2) The United State's atrocious mental health policy. It runs along these lines:
If you're not mentally healthy, don't ask us for treatment or insurance; cure your depression/schizophrenia/anxiety by picking yourself up by your bootstraps!" You can see why this might not be effective ;)
3) All the random propaganda you see flitting about in culture that targets Arabs/Muslims and others. In adddition to it being an unfair strategy for protecting yourself and your loved ones by loudly pointing out that you're not the target du jour, it's probably doomed to be ineffective in broader terms. From my limited experience, hate incidents represent a spike in tensions (usually intersecting with other things like a stolen bike or drunkenness or mental heatlh or other factors) that are built on underlying problems (competition for economic resources, racism, etc.) that are more chronic in nature and which can be seen in trends (like years of verbal or physical abuse of members of a particular community in a particular place).
4) a militaristic wartime culture--violence is in the air. For example, consider domestic violence in military families.

Sometimes, when I mention that I encountered racist spew while growing up in Northern California, I am greeted with extreme skepticism; “No way. Not in CALIFORNIA!”. Yes way, in my beloved golden state. Yet again, someone’s father/brother/grandfather almost died because of ignorance and hate.

But not, apparently, racism.

I love how people can jump on this thread and comment that we should be doing more PR and boosting our image - some say we should buy public service ads and others say we should start at the grass roots level. We're doing what we can, people! It's not easy!

I started a grassroots Sikh organization in the Bay Area after 9/11 and we did great things. Unfortunately, that lost momentum, especially after I left the area. There was another group that started afterwards whose main focus was PR on a more expensive level. I'm sure both groups reached people who otherwise would not have known who Sikhs were. But really, it's probably not these people who will be attacking a Sikh in the future. We could have a Sikh Senator out there, but it wouldn't make a difference to many of the Americans out there - especially those who would tend to commit an act of violence like this (not that it would hurt us to have representation like that).

I just had to throw that out there to ask people to think twice before just throwing out a comment like that. It's easy to go out there and market your website or your business; it's much harder to get out there and market your religion and the idea that you shouldn't be attacked because of it.

If you care so much, help us! Call the Sikh Coalition, call SALDEF and ask what you can do to help. I'm sure they're always looking for volunteers.

Two alleged hate crimes committed in Santa Clara County

SAN JOSE, Calif. Two men will be arraigned tomorrow for allegedly attacking a black man while shouting racial epithets.

Twenty-one-year-old Joseph Adam Krueger and 18-year-old Jonathan Rhodes -- both of Ceres -- are being held in jail on suspicion of assault and committing a hate crime.

Police say the two has a confrontation with the victim in a Mountain View park Saturday night and began punching him and threatening him with a knife while yelling white supremacist slogans.

This happened just days after the attack on the Sikh. Shall we now ask black men to bleach their skin? Or, do we stand up for justice instead - placing the responsibility of the crime on the criminal rather than the victim?

I will say this as a turban wearing and full bearded Sikh, raised in north America: no one on this planet can take this identity away from me, nor will I ever hide it. Anyone who thinks that by somehow Sikhs will make their lives easier for themselves by shedding their identities are only fooling themselves. If the ignorant/racists leave you alone because you don't have a turban, they'll go after you for your brown skin.

Sikhs exist today not because they disowned their identity, but instead because they defended it under the most merciless of persecution.

Sonia Kaur,

I'm not sure if (one or two exceptions aside) people have been making "offhand" comments here -- I think everyone's just bouncing ideas around and trying to be constructive ;)

My own suggestions were based on the course of events involving the British (South) Asian community in general here in the UK over the past few years, which has obviously been semi-successful, so I was just drawing on that for inspiration.

I've been trying to figure out exactly why there aren't really cases of mistaken identity for keshdhari Sikhs on any large scale here (clean-shaven Sikhs, yes absolutely, especially post-9/11), apart from the occasional incident. Maybe it's because of the colonial connection and the greater saturation of India/Indians within the mainstream consciousness. Or maybe it's because the only people in Britain who were perceived to wear turbans & beards were Sikhs, and there was sufficient time for that fact to gain a sufficiently high profile within the awareness of the British population in the 30+ years pre-9/11.

To respond to Ennis' earlier point, keshdhari Sikhs are significantly less common here in Britain too these days, especially amongst the 2nd-Generation. But as I said earlier, there has been enough time, face-to-face experience, and exposure in the media for most non-desis to know that beard + turban (usually) = Sikh.

*****************************************

To use another analogy, pre-9/11 (and certainly pre-Satanic Verses), the average non-desi Brit didn't really know much about Islam or the differences between the various desi communities and their respective religions, and it basically took a "major incident" to kick-start any major interest and analysis into the communities concerned and their religious/cultural background (Islam is the "flavour of the month" here in Britain for obvious reasons). So perhaps Americans will only really become aware of Sikhs (and Sikhism) on any genuine level if there is some kind of major national/international incident (either positive or negative) involving the community.

Unless, as I said in one of my previous posts, there is a breakthrough, wildly-successful coast-to-coast entertainment show on US television which either has a major Sikh character (Parminder Nagra on ER doesn't count because it barely touched on her character's Sikh background, apart from briefly mentioning it in the earlier episodes) or which is dominated by South Asians (in the mould of Goodness Gracious Me or The Kumars at Number 42).

Also, as a point of reference, you may be interested to know that one of the regular anchors on the most high-profile news/current affairs programme on terrestrial British television (a show called Newsnight on BBC2) is a keshdhari Sikh called Hardeep Singh Kohli. He is known for his fondness for wearing large pink turbans ;)

**********************

Just to respond briefly to the earlier question about the colour of turbans: As mentioned by some other commenters, there is no restriction on the colour worn although blue and saffron have certain connotations. Black turbans dominate here in the UK, especially amongst 2nd-Generation Sikhs if they happen to be keshdhari.

Fantastic post by TheKingSingh in #99 -- I support you 100% bro and am very proud of you ;)

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Amardeep,

Things may be better in terms of recognition/visibility in the UK, but they aren't *that* much better, I don't think.

Incidents certainly happen, whether it's just veiled animosity during one's normal day-to-day interaction with the public, or attacks on gurdwaras (as happened shortly after 7/7), but the overall frequency seems to be less in the UK in terms of the number of incidents vis-a-vis the size of the total British Sikh population.

In terms of the perception of Sikhs in the eyes of many non-desis here, remember what I said in the "colour" thread about the more macho (some would say warlike and aggressive, although it's been tempered somewhat post-9/11) stance of very many 2nd-Generation Sikhs in the UK, which was substantially influenced as a reaction to the racism desis here had grown up experiencing (especially their parents). Non-desis who have grown up in high-density Indian areas, or have studied/worked/socialised amongst them, are very often aware of this. English people in general are also aware of the military history of Sikhs (both as a group and in relation to the British Empire) so to some extent that's also affected perceptions. Either way, younger Sikhs jumping on the gangsta bandwagon in days gone by and their corresponding behaviour, especially their somewhat-forceful reactions to racism (rightly or wrongly), has also been a factor, which is of course not to say that thuggish or ignorant non-desis aren't going to try to pull a stunt with them anyway. But enough Sikhs subtly or overtly sending the message "Don't f*** with me" has played a part in influencing the image of Sikhs and whether they are perceived as "vulnerable targets".

Applying some lateral thinking, I would also say that the fact that Sikhs here (who tend to be very sociable and outgoing) are known for their fondness for drinking may have helped their "acceptance" by some quarters of the English population if both parties have significantly socialised in pubs, bars etc together (English people love drinking alcohol), and the infiltration of bhangra into the mainstream consciousness has possibly been a factor too. In any case, just normal everyday face-to-face friendly interaction and positive experiences, especially in London and the Midlands (both areas where most British Sikhs live), has played a huge part.