I don't think it's brownsploitation as much as Kamal Haasan (the hero) in disguise as a very cool late 70s - early 80s disco star infiltrating the bad guy's den to vanquish him with the help of his yellow-clad female relief.

This video was forwarded to me a week ago by a white American friend who was suffering from a bout of cultural confusion after watching it. She couldn't understand what the choreographed sequence was for. Naturally, I gave her the explanation that all South Asians are born mind-readers and telekinetics. This is why when a brown boy meets a brown girl in, say, Delhi, they instantly fall into step and are able to anticipate each other's every move in a dance set in Paris or Aruba.

Sollu Sollu Enna Perumai - Say, Say, My Pride?

That's Kamal Hasan, gulp!

Meaning: Solla Solla enna perumai-I feel proud saying it!

This is supposed to be a parody - right?

Am I the only one who noticed a SNOW WHITE poster in the background??

This is supposed to be a parody - right?

Gargi--I think this is the real deal and not a parody.

ANNA: The Snow White poster was one of the first things I noticed when I stopped concentrating on trying to pick up the dance-steps. I think I am going to break out some of them the next time I'm out.

that was so bizarre it beggars the imagination.

p.s. i still think south indians are aliens with indian accents :)

re: the alien comment, i don't want to start a flamewar, so i will clarify: when i hear hindi music or people chattering in gujarati or punjabi, if i strain i can pick up a lot of what they are saying since it isn't that different from bengali. when i hear tamil or malayalam, it sounds like i should understand it (the accent), but when i listen closely it remains utterly incomprehensible (the linguistic reasons are well known obviously). i understand why this is happening rationally, but it always weirds me out :)

Dude moves like David Brent. Beyond awesome. And the cigar smoking cat in the suit is none other than Sir Vidia, I'm sure of it.

Wicked good.

And we think of Bangladeshis who find Nicole Kidman more attractive than Kareena Kapoor as alien life forms :)
By the way, here's the translation:
Kill Whitey.
Kill Whitey.
Whitey be dead.
Kill Whitey

This song is a typical one (luckily not seen these days) sung by the hero in villain's den. The hero is in disguise, he has a different hairstyle.. :-) .

While searching for info. about this song, I found a comment

Coming to IR's song, name any genere of music and he's got songs in it. From classic to Rock, to R&B to Rock and Roll. Although his forte is Fusion, if he decides to give a pure classical or western classical music, he sticks to it in an absolute profound manner. Have any one listened to his "Solla solla" from Ellam Inbamayam(1981). His use of chorus for orchestration in that song is mind boggling. Thats pure Rock and Roll. Listen to Niram Piruthu from Time, thats pure WCM. For fusion , take "Andhi Mazhai" from Raja Paarvai. Another interesting fustion would be of "Megam Karukkayile" from Vaithegi kaathirunthal. Its interesting to note that the guitar accompanying the song is actually Western in its inception but the vocals are folksy. Coming back to the original topic, Come back ilayaraja, never has he gone out of scene man, its only us who havent been listening to his gems of 90's. He will always rule the Music scene in India. Hail the genius

in
http://www.lazygeek.net/archives/2004/07/come_back_illayaraaja.html

I don't know the technical details of music. But the songs mentioned "Andhi Mazhai" and "Megam Karukkayile" are gems (like a lot of songs from Ilaiyaraja)..

If you liked that one, you gotta check this one out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAU5IFt-QSs

By the way, here's the translation: Kill Whitey. Kill Whitey. Whitey be dead. Kill Whitey

lol!

So Ilayaraja comes back into the discussion here on SM. Hear all ya Himesh fans! This man, Ilayaraja is the real deal! And he has a unique voice too!

I actually really enjoyed that.

This is the golden age of desi Youtube videos, I think. (BTW, is anyone making a definitive list somewhere? Collecting them all?)

Sajit,

Thanks a million for posting the clip. Get the video/DVD of Ellam Inba Mayam literally everything (or the world/life) is (suffused with) pleasure and watch this fabulous slapstick entertainer - never a dull moment. The movie dates back to about 1979-81. Kamalahasan is cleverly repititive and long ago learnt that the way to fame is to act it out in fronmt of a fawning press. But where slapstick is concerned Kmalahasan has always delivered and his creativity is limitless (all the way to his recent comedies, Tenali, Panchatantram, and Pammal K. Sambandam. This movie was inspired by Peter Sellers's Soft Beds and Hard Battles, 1074 and as foreign movies took their time coming to India we had to wait for 5 years before we got to see Soft Beds.... Kamalahasan saw the movie and was inspired to use the theme. I will tell you something about this sequence without giving away the spoiler. The villain (dear old Jaisankar, alas! no more) used to know Kamal at one time and now has forgotten about him. The villain's daughter is seeing Kamal for the first time, and this is about 15 minutes into the movie. There's a lot more fun to come and a whopper of a dappankuthu based on the Carnatic varnam Raravenu Go'opala Rajita Sadguna Jayaseela...

So sepiamutiny finally got to hear about that obscure musician from India called Ilayaraja (who Naushad thought had achieved so much that the work of the veterans like him amounted to little and in whose presence of course Ilayaraja is known to always have remained standing and never taken his seat). Check out Ilayaraja's oratorio, Tiruvasakam in Symphony sometime. Ilayaraja is a treasure and his music will always please, inspire, enthrall, move, and...words fail me.

Razib:

I know Hindi and Punjabi. When I hear Gujarati, it sounds to me like a bunch of Hindi words I never heard before...so I know what you're talking about, I feel like I SHOULD understand it but I don't. Bengali sounds familiar too but because of a major pronunciation shift it sounds less familiar than Gujarati/Marathi, etc (words which would be pronounced like 'hut' in other northern Indian languages are pronounced like 'hot' in Bengali; and 'sun' becomes 'shon') Punjabi and Hindi are close to each other, some sentences would be virtually identical in the two languages. Tamil/Telugu etc. sound VERY different to me (but similar to each other and to the other South Indian languages).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PFURM9eA_Q&mode=related&search=rajkumar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwmcbrLv7Y&mode=related&search=rajkumar

Shiva: So this is where the "maaman veedu, machi veedu" song was from. Heard that when I was a kid and no one could tell me where it was from!

I was totally going to post "if you come today" just now!!

Dr. Rajkumar was the best.

My favorite Ilayaraja song.
From youtube
As a kid I used to listen to All India Radio in the evenings and would get very hyper if this song came on and someone would have to slap me. The guitar is awesome, leaves you wanting more somehow.

This is the golden age of desi Youtube videos, I think.

No, my friend. This is the golden age... of AMARDEEP.

I agree with this sentiment though. I try to download whichever youtube vids I can. I'm guessing that youtube will be shut down or otherwise penalized due to the staggering costs it's having on the Two Minute Clips From Movies and Music Videos Industry.

As much as I love Bollywood and the genre’s dance sequences, it is definitely important to recognize that Indian cinema encompasses more than just mainsteream Bollywood film. Not only is arthouse cinema on the up-and-up, but regional language film has always been a strong contributor to the entertaining of the masses.

Someone told me that Bollywood was, in its origins, essentially a knock-off of Tamil films. Is this true?

From the land of Nayak,
Saurav

The Best Ilayaraja instrumental in a song! Maybe best song ever!
Poongathave...
Horrid video but try imagining Sathyajit Ray's early movies to this sound. According to Razib's comment @ #8, it shouldn't be too difficult. Violins..

All that pelvic-thrusting is taking a toll on me...

Btw, I still think the joke's on us and they're all tongue-in-cheek. Have to be!

Rasudha: Thanks. Better than the stupid Raaga link that I posted of this song last week. This way a lot more people get to hear it! We could do with less of "Mic" Mohan though :D

Garrrrrrrrrrrgi,

This is clearly a case of who's laughing at whom. In the context of this movie, the dancer is mocking the rich & therefore evil guy and his western ways by aping western music and dance of that period, disco. The commentators on youtube are enjoying themselves by mocking this video. Are they mocking their own heritage? hmmm...or maybe its just brownsploitation boogie... wan chiku wank wank...solla solla enna perimai...

anantha:

We could do with less of "Mic" Mohan though

if I knew the face that went with that voice...only downside to youtube ; )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRiTvY-lkVI

And this one is from one of those wannabes hip hop fakers, down south in India! Incidentally, the singer and the composer, he is the aforementioned Ilayaraja's son.

Someone told me that Bollywood was, in its origins, essentially a knock-off of Tamil films. Is this true?

There are no separate entities in the strict sense from day one. Actors, actresses, movie directors, producers, camera crew work in different regional industries as opportunity arises and move around. Kamalhassan acts in 6 regional (including Bollywood) centers of film making. Nepali actress like Manisha Koirala even makes movies in the Malayali film industry. Abhishek B. is becoming big rage in Bhojpuri film industry. Sharmilla Tagore started with Satyajit Ray in Bengali films.

I think it all stated from Bombay circa 1917, and is the main hub.

That is why Amitabh does not like the word: Bollywood and always talks as Indian film indsutry.

brownz-in-film.

Right, hilarious videos and all, but could someone explain the term 'brownsploitation' for this n00b? I feel like I'm missing something here.

The Chocolate Brownie in Mango Milkshake: It's a take-off on "blaxploitation".

Please, please go easy on the guy. To his credit, he duped an entire state into thinking he could dance, with just 3 moves. :)
But Ilaiyaraja's music is to die for. The man continued to be inspired to dish out classic tunes, knowing they'd all be butchered onscreen. Here's a latter-day Ilaiyaraja/Kamal combo that's much better, with a tip of the hat to 'Bill Haley and the Comets'.

one 'o' clack, two 'o' clack rock! :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FthnViwkCs0

the list is being compiled here

@rasudha #25,

The Best Ilayaraja instrumental in a song! Maybe best song ever! Poongathave...

i haven't heard much of illayaraja's music, though i have heard a lot abt him. now, i must say the song you linked is impressive. typically, my opinion of the many "classical" filmi pieces i am asked to listen to is not very printable, to say the least. admittedly those pieces usually come with the recommendation: "you will love this, it is very classical and melodious". to me, use of the word "melodious" is the signal to buy ear plugs :).

on the other hand, this song is fresh sounding in a dangerously common raga---hats off! someone who can pull this off cannot be bad at all. i think i will dig up more of illayaraja's pieces.

Did any Hindi song fans notice that the song posted by Rasudha in #22 is the one from which the tune of famous Hindi song "Neelay neelay ambar" was jipped?

@ navratan kurma #38,

you are right. you disgusting fat a$$ bappi!!

Not an Ilayaraja song, but a great classical one nonetheless. Nanda en nila

The middle two songs in this Ilayaraja movie nenjathai-killathe.html are pretty nice

brownz-in-film.

Razib,

You are correct.

With increasing frequency, Pakistani actors, actresses, singers are being hired by Bollywood, Bhojppuri film industry, and Indian TV.

Feroze Khan was in Pakistan few months ago, got drunk, and blurted some serious embarassing stuff, and now supposedly is not welcomed in Pakistan anyomore.

Nepalis have been in Bollywood for a while.

I love you, bytewords.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8o1dZk9gBI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGsdQ1p-cQw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAU5IFt-QSs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GuMQr3UghA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koqeSXJtvvo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvx5e3mjMxQ

There are no separate entities in the strict sense from day one. Actors, actresses, movie directors, producers, camera crew work in different regional industries as opportunity arises and move around. Kamalhassan acts in 6 regional (including Bollywood) centers of film making. Nepali actress like Manisha Koirala even makes movies in the Malayali film industry. Abhishek B. is becoming big rage in Bhojpuri film industry. Sharmilla Tagore started with Satyajit Ray in Bengali films.

I think it all stated from Bombay circa 1917, and is the main hub.

That is why Amitabh does not like the word: Bollywood and always talks as Indian film indsutry.

Kush, this is all very well and good from an Indian nationalist standpoint :p but what I was trying to ask is if the style of Bollywood movies of the 70s and 80s wasn't predated in Tamil film. i don't know much about desi film, but it's seems implausible to say it's all and has always been one big hodgepodge without separate strands that would help you distinguish Satyajit Ray from Dil Chahta Hai.

On an aside, check out this awesome timeline of Indian cinematography.

Readers might be interested to know that one of the pioneer film directors in Tamil was actually an American by the name of Ellis R. Dungan who knew no Tamil. Check out the Internet Movie Database for a list of his Tamil movies. Also relevant is this article by S. Muthiah in The Hindu which contains a picture of Ellis Dungan. Incidentally, the Internet Movie Data base gives only his year of birth (1908) so it is possible that Mr. Dungan is still around with us. (I may be wrong and would appreciate being corrected.)

Navaratan Kurma, bytewords,

I checked out the songs.. Ilaiyaraja's movie (Payanangal mudivathillai) came out in 82, and Kalakaar came out in 83, checked the story of kalakaar in imdb and the stories look similar. Maybe it's an unsaid / unwritten arrangement. I don't think people acknowledge others' contribution in India yet.. The target audience is different for tamil and hindi movies (pre internet days). Also it is hard to find and punish plagiarism.. and I don't think anyone is above 'internalising'.. So the music directors just ignore .. It is hard to be creative if you do 30 movies in one year.

I like the "starting tune" of this song from Ilaiyaraja very much.. It is mesmerising.
link
Would like to know if it has been used somewhere else..

Kalakar is an attempted remake of Payanangal.... Kalyanji-Anandji asked Ilayaraja that they be permitted to use the tune ILaya Nila.... Ilayaraja is reported to have agreed to it on the condition that they let him use a Mahendra Kapoor number from Upkaar which Raaja said was his favourite K-A composition. Raaja had Yesudas render the song in NeegaL Kettavai -very hauntingly- some time in 1988. Raaja began performing on stage in his late teens around 1962 and over the next 15 years performed as a sessions musician all over India.

Yes, Maaman Oodu Machaan Oodu... is the song I mean, it's in Bhilahari right?

There has been a lot of exchange of ideas, people, themes, and methods all across the movie industry in India.

Kamal Hasan - The original triple threat all-in-all Alughu Raja of Tamil movies. My favorite Kamalsploitation movie has got to be Sakala kala vallavan.

The illayaraja songs people are linking to here are awesome, now I'm that much more motivated to go and download some. He has a great voice too, I was trying to find a link to Thenpandi Cheemayile from Nayakan, but could'nt.

This is clearly a case of who's laughing at whom. In the context of this movie, the dancer is mocking the rich & therefore evil guy and his western ways by aping western music and dance of that period, disco

I also noticed that in the last 15 seconds of the clip everyone breaks out into a semi-dapankuthu, maybe they are trying to say that deep down, no matter how western your ways, no one can resist breaking out into a good dapankuthu......Ah Podu!

Here is a piece on Ilyaraja in Outlook India. I would also heartily recommend Ilyaraja's Thiruvasagam in Symphony, which shiva the original brings up. I can understand very little Tamil, but its really not necessary to know any to feel the bhakti in this creative piece.

To ears attuned to listening to Manickavasagar's Thiruvasagam sung by Oduvars (Shaivite temple singers) in traditional panns (precursors to ragas), Ilayaraja's attempt could amount to blasphemy. To upholders of "tradition", this fresh engagement with the ninth-century bhakti saint's ecstatic outpourings—involving the 90-piece Budapest Symphony Orchestra, 60 East European voices with a choir of 25 children, a choir of 60 Indian voices, 40 Indian musicians and 10 voices from New York—may seem an odd mixture.

Manickavasagar is associated with the Shaiva Siddhanta tradition.

Yeti- how do you download from youtube? ignorantly law-abiding (tee-hee), I thought they were only for streaming...

this dance is not at all that strange (apart from the afro) from things seen in typical Tamil cinema.

Shouldn't that be Indian cinema of that perios in the 70s-80s..

This is a comment from IMDB on Disco Dancer 1983
http://imdb.com/title/tt0208903/usercomments

Author: Damian Bridgeman from Dublin Ireland

Hi All,

This is a breath taking piece of work as it is probably the strangest and funniest film I have ever seen. Although I suspect this was not the intention of the film. This is late night after the pub stuff. Just laugh your way through it. the big guitar disco dance number near the end is so absurd that you will wet yourself from laughing. The guy who reviewed it is absolutely on the money in his comments. But it is impossible to really relate how nuts it is. With extra mirror balls and disco dancers that spring up out of nowhere. A Killing guitar (literally it kills). Unhappy Indian disco dancing punters that take out their frustrations by throwing sandals- whats it all about?

Cheers

Damian

good god. if I had spanky gold boots like that, I'd dance like that too!

fierce link, Sajit!

DD: If you use Firefox, the Video Downloader extension will help.
https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/2390/
But everything on Youtube is a flash file, so you need a player like VLC to open it.

And if you ever choreograph a 'Homage to the 80s' number, please do incorporate some Kamal moves. Please. :)

I remember this Malayalam movie 'Udayannu Tharam' that was a satire of South Indian movies. It has this song that was quite a hit, and makes fun of the song & dance routine by having an unconventional hero, check it out

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ijPcqKD4Zo&search=mohanlal

lol...Kesh, only the mallus can do a true paraody

Also my Tamil Movie enthusiasts will remember this famous video, This guy can hold his own with ANY hip hop dancer!!!!! i'll put my two paisa on this guy

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lvl8djv0MAI&search=prabhu%20

lol...Kesh, only the mallus can do a true paraody

HaHA true that!!

Navratan Kurma / bytewords: I knew this was bound to come up.

Did any Hindi song fans notice that the song posted by Rasudha in #22 is the one from which the tune of famous Hindi song "Neelay neelay ambar" was jipped?

Expected to have this discussion last week it self, but no one brought it up! I mentioned these two numbers on Amardeep's post on Omkara's music last week as my favorite peice of TFM trivia. I should have put it explicitly.

Ponniyin Selvan / Shiva: Right on the money! I can't believe how many people get all derisive with the internalizing argument when they hear the Tamil original, in spite of the guitar riffs that bring up the song's end.

Suresh: Dungan died sometime ago. He was the one who "introduced" MGR and also directed some of MS Subbalakshmi's better known movies.

say it's all and has always been one big hodgepodge without separate strands that would help you distinguish Satyajit Ray from Dil Chahta Ha

There always has been a big hodgepodge. Read some of the comments written by Shiva and Ponniyan here on this thread.

Even the Bollywood of 70-80s was making similar movies as other regional centers - all of them had disco or Shaft-like themes. It is not common the same film in India be made in different languages at the same time or later. An example is Sadma by Kamalhaasan and Sridevi. There are hazaar (thousand) more examples.

There are no separate strands in terms of talent pool used, there are separate strands for target audience.

this dance is not at all that strange (apart from the afro) from things seen in typical Tamil cinema.

Shouldn't that be Indian cinema of that perios in the 70s-80s..

Anantha,

surprising coincidence.. Do you know of other pairs of songs??.. With internet/raaga I think it will be pretty easy to find out who "internalised" what...

Kesh: Btw, Prabhu Deva choreographed "Main Aisa Kyon Hoon" in Lakshya and won his second National Award for best choreography. He also choreographed the song, "Pyar Zindagi" from Pukar with Madhuri Dixit a few years ago.

Interestingly his first National Award was for Sapnay/Minsara Kanavu. This movie included this song that seems to have been partly "internalized" from this Gene Kelly - Leslie Caron number from An American in Paris (1951)! Some parts of the sets and the "steps" are erriely similar (starting at 3:01 onwards). Wish I could point out the similarities better, but the only "An American in Paris" video I can find at this point is what seems to be a tribute to Vincente Minnelli.

Wiki informs us that Gene Kelly won his only Oscar (honorary) that year "in appreciation of his versatility as an actor, singer, director and dancer, and specifically for his brilliant achievements in the art of choreography on film". So Prabhu Deva winning his award for an almost identical number is perhaps fitting ;)

Ponniyin Selvan: I am not sure if Raaga can be viewed as a "go to" resource to pinpoint "internalizing". But I have to give a shout out to Karthik over at I2FS, who is doing an outstanding job of tracking down and analyzing all the musical inspirations.

In fact, the samples he provides to substantiate his claims are very helpful in actually figuring out the "listening interests" of the composers in question, right from Salil Chaudhry to Sanjeev Dharshan.

Anantha,

thanks for the link.. but it starts with

Another important factor, is that this site focuses more on inspirations from international sources, rather than from inter-language inspirations in India. So I save considerable web space by not including Anand Milind's inspirations from Ilayaraja and A R Rahman! :-)

:-)

There are no separate strands in terms of talent pool used, there are separate strands for target audience.

Kush, I think that will change soon (the talent pool), if it has not, already. The kind of assembly line movie we get to see in Bollywood these days (let's leave the K Jo's out of this!) are not typical of what you see down South.

Yes, the target audience is largely different now. But that was not the case earlier. The audiences were largely similar in tastes.

I might rot in hell for this statement, considering that I am a hardcore Rajinikanth fan. Here goes - A lot of Rajinikanth's mega hits in Tamil were re-makes of Amitabh Bachchan starrers!

But the David Dhawans of the world minted a lot more. Almost every single David Dhawan movie has a Tamil or Telugu original that did equally good business!

Thank you, Sajit! Best post and discussion HEVVVER! I can't stop clicking the links people are posting. Help... no work getting done! Didn't know there was so much good stuff on youtube.

Am I the only one that feels very embarrassed when watching things like this? Many times my white friends talk to me about how cheesy these videos are, and I can't help but agree with them many times. There are exceptions, but these incredibly cheesy rips are more embarrasing than anything else.

Help... no work getting done!

Welcome to the club!

p.s. i still think south indians are aliens with indian accents :)

dont make me angry....you WOUN'T LIKE ME WHEN IM ANGRY!

Am I the only one that feels very embarrassed when watching things like this?

Getting embarassed for something in which you never played a role/part is a nice feeling to have.. It is as good as taking pride for something in which you never played a role/part.. Enjoy it while it lasts.. :-)

Getting embarassed for something in which you never played a role/part is a nice feeling to have.. It is as good as taking pride for something in which you never played a role/part.. Enjoy it while it lasts.. :-)

I never liked collectivism...

Am I the only one that feels very embarrassed when watching things like this? Many times my white friends talk to me about how cheesy these videos are, and I can't help but agree with them many times. There are exceptions, but these incredibly cheesy rips are more embarrasing than anything else.

Easiest solution: don't let your white friends see these videos.

D-Tank,

Am I the only one that feels very embarrassed when watching things like this? Many times my white friends talk to me about how cheesy these videos are, and I can't help but agree with them many times. There are exceptions, but these incredibly cheesy rips are more embarrasing than anything else.

Don't be embarrassed by this video, D-Tank. This video is cheesy but harmless. If you want to be embarrassed about an Indian-made music video, here's a good one...
Warning: Has been known to scare little children and you may suffer from loss of sleep/weightloss after viewing.
RaaRAa...

Rasudha,

What is to be embarrassed about here? I haven't had the chance to watch Chandramukhi yet, but if it is indeed a remake of the excellent Malayalam movie Manichithrathazhu, then everything in the video makes perfect sense. Or are you pointing out Rajni's antics? Or perhaps you are joking...

Enna intha pasanga 'alien' endru sollraanga? Avanga mozhi enakkum appdiye thonalaam. Ennamo! Free-ya viduvom...

Here is a 2.0 version of Tamil dancing. The dancing is amateurish at times. They actually start laughing in the middle, but it’s cute. At least it is more authentic then Kamal Hassan’s dancing.

rasudha,

Your warning needs to be in bold type. It's not just little children who would find it squeamish. (And in case Razib gets confused the song is Telugu. Not sure what it is doing in a Tamil movie.)

Am I the only one that feels very embarrassed when watching things like this?

Yes. You are the only one WHO feels very embarrassed.

(And in case Razib gets confused the song is Telugu. Not sure what it is doing in a Tamil movie.)

The story is about "Multiple Personality Disorder"..That character who is afflicted with MPD thinks of herself as a Telugu dancer wrongfully abducted by a King and separated from her lover..

It is funny, the movie is a super hit in all the four south indian languages.. Shobana won the best actoress award for her Malayalam movie in which she plays the "tamil dancer".. These folks minted money with just one good story and the poor guy who wrote the original story got a pittance..

navratan kurma,

I love you, bytewords.

oh thank you thank you :).

since when did youtube become a repository for old cheesy tamil dance numbers

gautham,

yo bro, bollywood rox, madrawood sux!

It seems like there is a slightly condescending view of Tamil cinema from the Bollywood fans in here.

Gautham, don't want to muddy the seemingly clear water by dipping my arm in it, but this condescending view is nothing new. It seems to be so prevelant that one loses voice just by talkign about it.

And that's why, even though it might seem tagential to the discussion here, one tries to highlight the positives that not a lot of people who comment here know - For e.g., Ilayaraja's gems and A.R.Rahman's Tamil numbers that many native Hindi speakers haven't even heard about. Just doing my bit to bring enlightenment to the masses ;)

And ya, needless to say, we "intellectuals" from down south look down upon the others with scorn too. Once I start, I can't stop ranting about Himesh Reshmaiyya or Kumar Sanu! Ah well, to each his own!

yeah, do quote as "intellectuals." both bengali and brains start with the same letter!

It seems like there is a slightly condescending view of Tamil cinema from the Bollywood fans in here

I think the condescension branches further than cinema.

razib,

I don’t want to start a flame war either but your categorization of South Indians as “aliens with Indian accents” whose language is utterly incomprehensible sounds like major essentializing on your part.

I am not a linguist, but you being of Bengali origin should I think enable you to understand some “South Indian words”.

I am not sure if Bangaldeshi Bengali is significantly different than the Indian Bengali. Bengali seems to sounds the same to my non-Bengali ears whether it is spoken by Hindus or Muslims, unlike Hindi. And literary Bengali seems very sanskritized. (In fact I believe the post-independence, de-urdufication of Hindi and its subsequent sankritization has a lot to do with certain cultural nationalists emulating Bengali, rather than a return to some pre-Islamic Hindi.)

Anyway, if you are familiar with Bengali, and therefore by default are familiar with Sanskrit words you should be able to understand a lot more “south Indian” words than you claim. I am not sure about the amount of Sanskritization in other South Indian languages, but about 40% of the Telugu lexicon is of Sanskrit origin. I am not sure about the extent of the influence of Sanskrit on Kannada and Malayalam, but I believe both languages still retain some of the influence. Tamil I believe has undergone some recent de-sanskritization, but I am not sure if it was as dependent as the other South Indian languages on Sanskrit loan words in the first place.

To claim that the south Indian languages are “utterly incomprehensible” because of linguistic reasons, is utterly false. You may not be familiar with the syntax, but you should be able to understand a word or two. I suspect the failure stems from your lack of familiarity with Bengali, but it has nothing to do with linguistics reasons as you claim. Your use of the derogatory word “southie” in the past makes me wonder if you are actually listening to South Indians with open ears.

It seems like there is a slightly condescending view of Tamil cinema from the Bollywood fans in here.

Not at all, if you mute the streaming, I would not even know whether the movie is from Bollywood, Tollywood, Kollywood. There are hazaar Bollywood songs in Afro wigs too.

Kamalhaasan (the dancer in the video) acts in all: Bollywood, Tollywood, and Kollywood, and then some. His production company rakes about US $10 million a year in India.

Somebody said here on the thread that Mani Ratnam is their favorite Tamil director. He makes great Bollywood movies too - example Bombay, Dil Se and in Kannada, and Telugu too.

my tamizh bretheren,

Ignore Razib, for every bangaldeshi-pseudo-bengali (I think he deserves some abuse here), you have me to balance!
My floor at the engineering college hostel (dorm to the ABCD's) was packed with Tamil's and Mallus, and this was during the glory
days of the early '90's when Hindi-walla's were just discovering the brilliance of Tamil movies. Man, I knew all the songs of Roja,
Gentleman, "Thiruda, Thiruda" in Tamil before the hindi-valla's even knew of these movies. I still have " Veerapandi Kottaiyile" and
"Koncham Nilavu" on all my favourites CD's.

comeon relax guys, padam pakla ma?

Your use of the derogatory word “southie” in the past makes me wonder if you are actually listening to South Indians with open ears.

LOL. i don't ever remember using the word "southie." if i did, i was probably making fun of some prig who was making derogatory insinuations of south indians via parody.

take a chill pill.

pretty soon someone will tell me that making a joke is "essentializing." people need to leave the verbo-theoretical artillery at the door sometimes.

Navratan Kurma,

Rasudha, What is to be embarrassed about here? I haven't had the chance to watch Chandramukhi yet, but if it is indeed a remake of the excellent Malayalam movie Manichithrathazhu, then everything in the video makes perfect sense. Or are you pointing out Rajni's antics? Or perhaps you are joking...

Malayalam movie Manichithrathazhu is one of my favorites. Chandramukhi is a travesty of that movie. Shobana is a godess and Jyothika is a demon in comparison. I'm a tamil-telugu but have no pride in Tamil movie any longer. What they did to Fazil's beautiful malyalam film must be very painful for him to watch. Of course, it was Vasu in the Kannada film Aapthmithra that started this.

In malayalam, the equivalent song Oru Murai Vanthu Paraiyo is in Tamil.

Enna intha pasanga 'alien' endru sollraanga? Avanga mozhi enakkum appdiye thonalaam. Ennamo! Free-ya viduvom...

It's all the vowels that make South Indian languages seem alien. No need to be mad. I like that we sound different.

Some more ilayaraja gems...
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/26/s/movie_name.4934/ (listen to the second song)

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/26/s/year.30/ ( especially 4 and 5)

razib,

"verbo-theoretical artillery"

O the irony : )

Also this one(Listen to the mrigas...if you know what that means...If you notice the music between each stanza is different unlike hindi songs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd1-YNsUlck&search=nizhalgal

yes, bengali (and assamese and oriya) are very different from the western indo-aryan languages. still, i can recognize words like "meg" and "kala" and stuff usually.

yeah, my bangla sux. mebee that wuz it.

#100

no, you failed a more fundamental test of "bengaliness", the ability to appreciate another great culture.

btw, my Bengali ain't to great either.

I think people are being "sensitive" here.. (nothing wrong though..)

But there is nothing wrong to sound "alien" to those who do not know the language.. Don't you think it is mutual.??

Gautham: Since i used the term "intellectual" first, I should perhaps clarify that the usage was not to point fingers at anyone, but to laugh at those South Indian people that I that I have met personally and who speak condescendingly of anyone north of the Vindhyas. While for many North Indians, it is the "I can't understand you and so you are stupid", for many of us from down south, it is a case of "You cannot understand anything that comes out from my mouth and so you are stupid." So it is all a case of communication gap.

As far as cinema is concerned, it is all about the way things are dealt with. I typically find Bollywood movies more escapist, while movies down south are generally more grounded in reality. Again this could be more related to the socio-economic climate prevailing in the area. Down south equality has been the catch phrase since the 60s. So Sanjay Rawat would jump out from a Sikorsky clad in black Versace and run to the puja room (hair flowing in the breeze and tun tun tun tun music playing the background) in his millionaire father Yashwardhan Rawat's 25 room Victorian manor to fall at his mom's feet.

But down south, Saravana Kumar might get down from Route 29C and walk to his own second floor, two bedroom apartment where his retired (with pension) father and housewife mother are waiting with the day's news.

Again this is my perception of things.

Bombay was a Tamil movie. I'm fairly sure of this, but not 100%. It was dubbed to Hindi.

yes, Gautham's right-- originally Mani Ratnam made it in Tamil. It did so well, he decided to remake it in Hindi. Solid movie, definitely one of the new classics.

no, you failed a more fundamental test of "bengaliness", the ability to appreciate another great culture.

dude, i was making the alien comment in response to this video. LOL.

Bombay was a Tamil movie. I'm fairly sure of this, but not 100%. It was dubbed to Hindi.

Yes, I checked. Originally, Bombay was a Tamil movie and then dubbed in Hindi. One of my earlier comments, I talked about this too - often Indian movies are dubbed in multiple languages and some later remade with same or different stars like, Sadma. Sadma had same stars but a different director.

Amitabh Bachchan has signed couple Bhojpuri movies, so has Hema Malini. Katrina Kaif has couple of Telugu movies.

Have you noticed Mani Ratnam's favorite actress is Manisha Koirala who happens to be Nepali?

kush,

please put together venn diagram which shows the intersection of actor/esses across regional and bollywood film industries. your argument would be persuasive if you can show widespread intersections across the subsets.

Hey Kush how about Simran. She shows up quite a bit in Tollywood. Isn't she Punjabi?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilayaraaja

razib, you clown, I was just going to post a link to that song. Telugus need to be represented here too in case they get too uppity. Now I'm going to look for Bengali specimen.

here it is anyway

Poor sridevi must have bruises from all that shoulder nudging.

shiloh, do you like neil diamond?

please put together venn diagram which shows the intersection of actor/esses across regional and bollywood film industries.

I will, and will start with Satyajit Ray and his alum.

Yesudas (for all who do not know him)who sang for the movies "Anand Mahal" and "Chitchor" was allegedly driven out of bolly wood because one famous singer was threatened....guess who

uh, i was joking :) but soundz interesting.

ponniyin selvan,

I hope it's not to me you are referring to when you say some people are being sensitive : )

My point is that some “South Indian words” should not be that alien. What does one make of the fact that someone claims to understand “megh” and “kaal” but who might (he hasn’t btw) claim “megahmu” and “kaalamu” sound utterly alien. To pick a random example from Gautam’s post take “mouna raagam”, most desis would know what that means, where ever they might be from but if some one claims that they find it utterly alien, it might lead me to make some conjectures, perhaps unfairly : )

Razib bengali

Do you like bing crosby?

Tef,

I believe 80+ percent of Malyalam words (credit the Namboodiri Brahmins) and over 60 percent of Kannada words owe their origins to Skt., despite the Dravidian grammatical structure.

shiloh, heez ok.

re: word count, i find the high % of sansrkit words plausible, but please note that overall % doesn't necessarily translate into everyday speech. e.g., the percenage of latin and greek origin words in english is very high, but the "core" words used in most everyday speech tend to be germanic (though if you "latinize" everyday speech with french imported variants it sounds a lot "classier" all of a sudden).

tef,

here's a video that is bengali but could easily be telugu too. Not 'alien' at all!

Bengali Babu

Brown Chaplin and Dappankuthu? Is he singing about coca cola? A leftist anti-coke propaganga?

Hey Kush how about Simran. She shows up quite a bit in Tollywood. Isn't she Punjabi?

Yes. Let's take an example of Mr. and Mrs. Iyer. A film made by Aparna Sen (a Satyajit Ray alum, and a Bengali actress who acted in Bengali, Hindi and English movies) in English about a beautiful love story between a Tamil Brahmin and a Muslim.

Who plays the Tamil Brahmin to a T - Konkona Sen Sharma, real life daughter of Aparna Sen and granddaughter of Chindananda Dasgupta.

As a pseudo-Indian, I think Razib's 'alien' analogy is in poor taste, given the systemic colonization, subjugation, and exploitation of traditional, matriarchal, egalitarian Native Indian culture over thousands of years by chauvanist, heirarchal, 'enthnolinguistic aliens' to the north. Native Indian languages are more than just highly sophisticated methods of communication, they allow the imprinting of the aforementioned traditional values upon their speakers ultimately leading to a more livable society. Tamil has 17 words for Peace.

rasudha,

the bengali link was wicked.. still crying

superbrown, straight or fake, wow, you rok!

while Hindi audiences seem to prefer super-lightskinned demigods that live in place like London, Sydney and Switzerland. I'm not saying either is superior, and I think it is pretty ironic for people in here to suggest otherwise

Gautham - I love Tamil movies, but the preference for super-light skinned people in movies isn’t a purely North Indian thing. In Tamil movies the male leads are usually pretty representative of the general populace, but the women leads are generally super light-skinned. Someone brought up the fact that Simran and Manisha are both not South Indian, there seems to be a lot of North Indian women in Tamil movies because of the fairer skin aspect.

I haven’t seen many Hindi movies, but from what I've been told the older ones are definitely better, which in my opinion is the same with Tamil movies. Older movies by K. Balachander, Bharathiraja and the like were amazing.

though my first thought on a quick read through was, "what have kanadians done to native americans?"

razib,

You are right having a high pecentage sanskrit words in a language does not necessarily mean that they are used in everyday language. But in Telugu the sanskrit words are used quite extensively, not just in literature, or high culture spheres, but in everyday conversation. Although I can't prove it, most people who are bilingual (Telugu & Hindi) don't find Sanskritized Telugu odd, it's so deeply ingrained that it does not seem alien, but Hindi, the official version anyways seems artificial.

I recall reading somewhere that there are no Telugu origin words for "north" and "south" it seems implausible, but I guess it is true. The words used are uttara and dakshina both sanskrit, very indicative of sanskrit's influence.

rasudha,

WTF was that?! : ) And it sounds completely “alien” so I guess there goes my theory. Wait I heard “Bangladesh” – land of the Bengalis. My theory still holds.

You are right having a high pecentage sanskrit words in a language does not necessarily mean that they are used in everyday language. But in Telugu the sanskrit words are used quite extensively, not just in literature, or high culture spheres, but in everyday conversation. Although I can't prove it, most people who are bilingual (Telugu & Hindi) don't find Sanskritized Telugu odd, it's so deeply ingrained that it does not seem alien, but Hindi, the official version anyways seems artificial.

my understanding is that telugu is more like north indian languages than the other southern ones. in fact, the telugu speaking individuals that my family socialized with refused to consider it a dravidian language (OK, straight up, they lectured my father when he opined that he thought it was a dravidian language). where you draw the boundaries between languages can be artificial, and there is a distortion introduced by the more distinctive nature of "high" or literate languages. but for whatever reason, i do personally feel there is a discontinuity between hindu and telugu in relation to their distance from bengali.

wantok,

In Tamil movies the male leads are usually pretty representative of the general populace, but the women leads are generally super light-skinned.

Female leads from the north are usually just glamour dolls who dont have a meaty role. The tamil movies that require female "actresses" usually go for Tamil or Malayali actresses. Eg Meera Jasmine, Sneha, Gopika, Asin, Sandhya, Sangeetha etc. Jyothika , Laila and Simran(from north) took a while to graduate from the glamour roles. Tamils dont spend any effort to support/develop tamil heroines and when necessary poach from the neighboring malayali industry. It really sucks not to able to see a role model who looks like you. I mean unlike the males you almost never see a heroine who is the same color or culture as you. As if the whole race of us is unworthy. Good thing we don't depend on the film industry for self-esteem.

of course, my ascertainment could be cross-referenced with the perception of someone who speaks hindi, gujarati or punjabi: are bengali and south indian languages equally opaque in terms of intelligibility?

razib,

Telugu people are language snobs. The ones in Andra at least. I'm a telugu and grew up in Tamil Nadu speaking both languages, so I know. Telugus dont bother to learn etymology, grammer etc from other dravidian languages and because they use many sanskrit words, they think they are different.

Tamil Paruppu is Telugu Pappu
Tamil Vandi is Telugu Bandi
Tamil Ulunthu is Telugu Uddu

I can go on and on and on...

What people of south need to understand is that 'Tamil' as the ancester language is not the tamil spoken today. It is Senthamizh. Tamil is as far from Senthamizh as Telugu is. But Southern languages are all derived from Senthamizh. Use of sanskrit words in current telugu is similar to their use of persian. eg. Ee Rozu-this day

There were a whole slew of "disco" in Tamil movies in the 70s. I don't think they were parodying anything, they probably thought this was too cool for words.
Is there anyone here who remembers Rajnikanth singing "I can kiss you bithout tecching you?" He became my god after that - kissing but bithout tecching!!

As if the whole race of us is unworthy. Good thing we don't depend on the film industry for self-esteem.

When in doubt, think of SriDevi, Aishwaryia Rai, Vijanthimala - All are Tamil actresses that loomed large on India.

Filmmaking is a business - the directors and producers pick their safest bets within their budget. I do not think they sit down and think about role models etc. - they will loose money and be on the street.

Aishwaryia Rai

ain't she from the tulu community?