August 10, 2006
Newsflash: UK govt claims major terrorist plot foiled (update 6)News
Right now the UK is on very high alert. Security is at its maximum and Heathrow is closed to all new flights. On those flights that are now leaving the UK, passengers are neither allowed to have any hand luggage nor carry any fluids on board.
According to the BBC:
A plot to blow up planes in flight from the UK to the US and commit “mass murder on an unimaginable scale” has been disrupted, Scotland Yard has said. It is thought the plan was to detonate explosive devices smuggled in hand luggage on to as many as 10 aircraft. Police were searching premises with 21 people in custody after arrests in the London area and West Midlands. [Link]
At this point we know very little, and the ” War on Terror” has gone on long enough that I personally will withhold judgement until there is more evidence. I cannot find any news about who the detained suspects are, but sadly the odds are that there might be a very straightforward brown angle to this story.
Update 1:
What little we know about the plot indicates that it is a home grown conspiracy, like 7-7, involving British Asians [thanks AMfD]:
According to BBC sources the “principal characters” suspected of being involved in the plot were British-born. There are also understood to be links to Pakistan. [Link]
The mechanism apparently involved multiple liquids or gels that were inert separately but were explosive in combination. These would not have been detected given current mechanisms.
Update 2:
At this point, we still know very little about who was involved and exactly what they were planning to do. Here are some of the newer reports concerning the alleged plot.
The authorities claim that they had been investigating the conspiracy for a year before they acted:
The secret investigation into the plot has already lasted a year. Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke, the Met’s head of anti-terrorism, said that intensive surveillance had been carried out of the meetings, movements, travel, spending and the aspirations of a large group of people, both in Britain and abroad. [Link]
“Sources” claim that the Pakistani government was working with the British in the investigation:
Pakistani intelligence agencies helped the British authorities foil the terror plot to blow up aircraft travelling between Britain and America, highly placed sources in Pakistan said today. The agencies have been working closely with British anti-terror police in monitoring the activities of the suspected terrorists for some time, many of whom have links with Pakistan-based Islamic militant groups, The Times has learnt. [Link]
We are still awaiting confirmation concerning who was involved. They are believed to be all British citizens, many of whom are of Pakistani origin, but this has not been confirmed by the authorities:
Mr Reid [the home secretary] would not comment on claims that the detainees were British-born Muslims of Pakistani descent… [he also] refused to be drawn on whether the apprehended individuals suspected of terrorist activities were foreign or “home-grown”. [Link]
Initial reports based on one of the raids suggest that North Africans may also have been involved:
[a neighbor]… said he believed two north African men had been living in the flat for about a month. He said: “I saw a couple of north African-looking men about three weeks ago. They were in their mid 30s. They were dressed quite normally in T-shirts and trousers. “I haven’t seen them in the last couple of weeks. There is not often anyone there at that house.” [Link]
Nor do we know for sure how many planed were targeted. Some reports say up to ten, while other reports say up to twelve:
Officials also declined to confirm the number of flights believed to have been targets - sources said up to 10 - and the home secretary would only say the alleged intention was to carry out a “wave” of attacks. [Link]
In sum, we know very little for sure at this point.
Update 3:
The US claims that the plot was days away from being executed and that most of the plotters were of Pakistani decent. However, this is still not official confirmation (I have no trouble believing it, I am simply noting that there is a difference between official and unofficial confirmation, the latter has been given several times already):
According to a U.S. intelligence official, the plotters were “days away” from going through with their plan. Searches last night turned up airline schedule information in their possession, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. All of those arrested were British citizens, and most appeared to be of Pakistani descent, the official said. [Link]
Update 4 [Thanks Jai]:
Five suspects are still being sought, more information concering the possible identity of the conspirators:
Five of the suspected London terrorists are still at large and are being urgently hunted, according to U.S. sources who have been briefed on the airplane bombing plot. Officials tell ABC News 24 people now have been taken into custody. Twenty-two are believed to be of Pakistani descent. One is Bangladeshi, and another is of Iranian descent, according to the officials. [Link]
Pakistan officially confirms its involvement in foiling the plot:
A senior Pakistani security official told the AFP news agency that Pakistani intelligence agencies helped British authorities foil the plot. Foreign Office spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said: “Pakistan played a very important role in uncovering and breaking this international terrorist network. “There were some arrests in Pakistan which were co-ordinated with arrests in the UK…” [Link]
Update 5:
ABC news claims it has the names of three of the suspects, and links them to recent travels to Pakistan:
Three of the alleged ringleaders of the foiled airplane bomb plot have been identified by Western intelligence agencies involved in unraveling the plot. Two of them are believed to have recently traveled to Pakistan and were later in receipt of money wired to them from Pakistan, reportedly to purchase tickets for the suicide bombers.Sources identify the three, who are now in custody, as:
- Rashid Rauf
- Mohammed al-Ghandra
- Ahmed al Khan. [Link]
Update 6 [Thanks Vikram and RC]:
More information on exactly how far along the plot was, and the presence of an inside man:
An undercover British agent infiltrated the group, giving the authorities intelligence on the alleged plan, several U.S. government officials said. The men had not bought plane tickets, the officials said, but they were in the process of perusing the Internet to find flights to various cities that had similar departure times…
Among those arrested were a Muslim charity worker and a Heathrow Airport employee with an all-area access pass, according to Britain’s Channel 4.
The suspects were planning to stage a test run within a couple of days, said a U.S. intelligence official. [Link]
ennis on August 10, 2006 07:12 AM in News · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
I cannot find any news about who the detained suspects are, but sadly the odds are that there might be a very straightforward brown angle to this story.
You are quite right.
From the same BBC article:
According to BBC sources the "principal characters" suspected of being involved in the plot were British-born. There are also understood to be links to Pakistan.
Thank God they caught on to this before the incidents happened. I am all for getting rid of carry-on luggage or at least having every bag manually inspected, as well as placed through the x-ray machine.
I am watching BBC News 24 on my desktop. All the arrested individuals are said to be British citizens of Pakistani origin.
Sadly I think it is inevitable that another attack will be successful at some point. Large co-ordinated plots like this are more vulnerable to detection. But smaller scale attacks are almost inevitable even if this kind of 'spectacular' are more difficult to carry out.
The suggestions are that some kind of liquid explosive or accelerant, a new explosive technology, was to be used. All passengers have been banned from taking any kind of drink or liquid on to planes. Heathrow and all British airports are at a level of lockdown and extreme security not seen since 9/11 - an security analyst being interviewed on BBC News just said this.
BBC intelligence source believes that American airlines and flights to America were targetted.
From the Guardian via Pickled Politics: The Guardian said today: By any standard this was a memorable day for the future of multiculturalism in modern Britain.
The above was in reference to a cricket game won by England.
And today second generation Pakistanis allegedly try to blow up multiple planes!
The terrorgasm on the American Right starts.
from here (unconfirmed?):
What if they didn't catch everyone? :X
Ennis, Until British start arresting Indians, please don't club all brown as terrorist. You aren't a politician, you don't have to appease anybody by using Brown instead of more specific Muslim or Pakistani for terrorist.
Enough. Ennis did no such thing-- this blog SPECIFICALLY states that it covers "brown angles", the exact phrase he used above (and crossed out, not that you noticed).
Save the negativity for those who deserve it, please.
S Jain
Ennis has not clubbed all browns as terrorists. He has correctly stated that there is a brown angle to it and it looks that British citizens of Pakistani descent are involved. One way or another that is of interest to all of us.
So what is with ethnic Pakistanis (or whatever label you want to pin on them) being so disaffected in Britian?
How come this hasn't happened in the USA yet?
I thought we were fighting them there so we did not have to fight them here.
"What if they didn't catch everyone? :X "
Thank god they did, this is so scary. A feeling of dejavu caught me this morning when i turned the tv on to see BREAKING NEWS on the bottom and showing reporters at airports.
It's statistically improbable.. I don't understand why everyone is getting their panties twisted.
How come this hasn't happened in the USA yet?
A. It could very well be but we are unaware yet.
B. Pakistani nationals have been in the UK longer than the US and since the first WTC attack the US has been very conservative in letting them in.
And how long before the Left has their "another Bush-Blair conspiracy" paroxysms ? Is just a matter of time before one of these plots succeed. They have infinite patience and supporters here and abroad.
This is rich from the continent that devised both World Wars.
The threat was real, and I'm glad it was doused. But the overreaction to it (no drinks on planes! no planes!) will be just as real, and far more costly. Terrorgasm indeed.
All wars have also involved confronting a Fifth Column factor on home turf.
Eric,
That issue was discussed in extreme details right after the 7/7 attack here on this site, it can be found here . People also explained that how UK and USA situation is different in that regard. But lets not jump to conclusion on this one yet, until more details are known.
But Kobayashi-san, aren't the explosives liquid? Pardon my stupidity, but if as Ennis said, we wouldn't be able to detect them with our current procedures, wouldn't we have to do something draconian like ban drinks on planes? Does anyone know more about these liquid or gel explosives?
The type of Islam disseminated amongst British Pakistanis since the 1989 Rusdhie affair, combined with the generally conservative attitude of their backgrounds (rural Mirpuris) mean that they have become particularly susceptible to the message of extremist Islam.
I don't get what that has to do with this. Plotting to bomb nine planes from three separate airports would have been pretty bad.
I don't think you can gauge whether this is an over-reaction.
I mean, implementing measures based on new security advice is not an over-reaction as far as I'm concerned.
It wouldn't surprise me if the next plot involves an "inside man/woman" working with the TSA or airport staff who will help the plotters bypass screening equipment and airport security. Too much dependence on technology to detect and thwart attacks has always been an Achilles heel.
True.
I say: Invade UK while you're at it. That'll teach 'em. And they'll probably welcome the troups with open arms, just like Iraq!
Liquid explosives have been around for over 50 years:
i think the no drinks and gels is a good policy, because if the story is true on its facts, it is possible for different people to smuggle different drinks on board and mix a cocktail in the air.
this must really hit those who travel with laptops etc.
o' boy - next trip to d.c. is going to be fun
Vikram, I gather that liquid explosives are almost impossible to detect by conventional screening equipment.
The problem with them -- which I think is the reason terrorists generally don't use them -- is that they are notoriously unstable. Nitroglycerin can apparently go off if you sneeze, or look at it funny. I gather this plot entailed something more complicated (and more stable?) than nitroglycerin, perhaps an acetate compound that could actually be mixed on the plane itself. One commentator on NPR was talking about a liquid form of TATP, the powdered version of which was in Richard Reid's shoes; I don't know if that's scientifically feasible.
Has there ever been a successful terrorist attack involving liquid explosives?
Going by the list of British Jihadis including 7-11 bombers, shoe bomber, British nationals fighting the US forces in Afghanistan, the war on terror could have been better served with an invasion of Britain instead of Iraq ;)
Lets see what evidence they have against these 21 people. Blair is getting pretty unpopular in Britain and this might be a cynical attempt to show that Blair is in command and protecting the homeland by launching high profile arrests like in the case of the Florida 'terrorists'.
On the other hand, this very well might be a very serious plot, the thwarting of which prevented a major tragedy from taking place in the skies.
I guess we will have to wait and see.
Al Mujahid for debauchery
Do you really believe there's a nefarious cabal in Westminster plotting to frame a group of Muslims to take the heat off Blair? I think that is as unhelpful as the hard-right reflex that seeks to ascribe collective guilt to all Muslims. After 7/7 and other plots including one to blow up central London nightclubs currently on trial, you cannot dismiss this out of hand with conspiracy theories.
Vikram said:
The scary part about that is the TSA has a long history of poor screening for its own hires. There have numerous theft rings busted up over the years:
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=266573
And when they're not busy monitoring their monitors, they waste money left and right (even buy themselves presents):
http://federaltimes.com/index.php?S=1985369
And then congratulate themselves on a job well done (spending even more money!):
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6243299/
TSA is a joke, IMHO. I share your concern on how easy it would be to get someone "inside." :(
One of the negative consequences of instant news is that people expect instant answers. When I heard of the ban on liquids and gels, my initial reaction was, "I can't even bring a bottle of water or a tube of toothpaste?" And for the forseeable future, that may be the case. Hopefully, all you chem majors out there will devise ways to detect explosives versus toothpaste. I'm thinking of those round pads which they currently rub on luggage, and then place in a scanner to detect certain chemicals.
I'll expect some overreaction by the right, but that should not excuse government bungling in other areas. Similarly, I'll expect overreaction by the left, but that does not mean there can exist a few dozen men who wish to murder others on a massive scale. The Bombay train bombings were less than a month ago.
Typo - but that does not mean there cannnot exist a few dozen men
Do you really believe there's a nefarious cabal in Westminster plotting to frame a group of Muslims to take the heat off Blair?
I am sure they have something on these dudes/dudettes. As I havnt seen any evidence, it is indeed possible that the British authorities might be exagerrating the potency of these would be attackers. These are the same people who shot dead a Brazilian engineer. If they have arrested 21 people, they must have something on these people. I am only wondering about how serious and imminent was the threat.
One good thing is that another date 8/10 has been saved from being used as a label for terror related reasons.. jihadis should start reusing the dates.. we only have 365 in a year..
I applaud MI5's and Scotland Yard's intelligence breakthrough's that prevented this massacare. If it indeed proved to be britasians that planned this. 7/7 indeed proved to be a waking call, We can launch into endless discussions about the UK"s need to screen its mad mullahs and deny these hate-spewing animals entry to the region or deport them if necessary. But now i think that the reason the UK has been so lax in freezing accounts of terror funding businessmen and their evangelistic counterparts are so that they can monitor them in order to foil upcoming terror plots.
I'm flying to India on Saturday and i hope the US airports are diligent. They can 'random check' me all they want, as long as i get home in one piece.
I can't bring toothpaste on to the plane?? If I'm on a long flight (10 plus hours), I need some toothpaste! (Especially with all that nasty airplane food)
I think an interesting point that no one is talking about is how come in all these foiled attempts, these terrorists managed to get visas into the US??? I thought our immigration system was supposed to be more strict.
Just caught the news. Coincidentally, I am currently reading a book called "The Trouble with Islam" written by someone who could easily belong among the mutineers - smart, second-generation Muslim brown raised in North America and possessing a wit that doesn't quit. Notice I didn't proffer my views, just the irony of this little coincidence in my life.
Newyorker, I don't think we do know that they had visas, though admittedly as British nationals visas probably would not have been too hard for them to get.
As some commentors have been pointing out, we don't know yet whether they had even started to build actual bombs, or actively pursue/develop the plot.
Just on CNN - not Al Qaeda but Al Qaeda inspired group
Brits dont need a visa to come to the US just like the Americans dont need a visa to go to the UK unless you are going there or coming here to go to work etc.
Oops -- I knew that!
I'm not sure.. But I thought (Western) European citizens and Canadians don't need visas to enter US for tourism/personal reasons.. They need visas only for work.. Is that true??..
Oh yah - duh!!! I forgot that some countries don't require tourist visas. Perhaps, that may change??? I doubt it though.
AK,
I dont like US's foreign policy either, but I am not naive to think that the Democratic party is going to change any of the foreign policy. And how about your claim that somehow the south is the 'enemy' and NY are the 'good people'. More racialy motivated attacks on south asians happened in NY, NJ and PA area (several attacks even in MA) compared to the similar size area of Texas.
Your beloved Democrats voted overwhelmingly for the war in Iraq and continue to vote for keeping the failed policy in Iraq.
Look, I'm sure someone can come up with powdered explosives that can be hidden in the cuffs of trousers or activated with saliva or whatever. The real point is that coming between the public and their right to be terrified is about as smart as getting in the sightline between a mother hippo and her calf.
The orgy of fear-mongering continues all over the world. People love being frightened: it gives them a sense of purpose. The British authorities scream about "murder on an imaginable scale," but what do such words actually mean. A thousand dead: horrible, but not unimaginable. Far from unimaginable.
But, of course, in thrall to the hormones of fear (the same ones that people get from thrill rides) millions of citizens are delighted to offer up their civil rights. No one stops and thinks for a moment: what would it take for the terrorists to succeed? Remember, for a terrorist, success is not defined in terms of numbers killed. It's defined in terms of numbers terrified. In that sense, with the reliable help of the government, today's operation is another resounding success.
Further reading: the paper Abhi posted a couple of days ago was excellent, actually.
My hand luggage can be limited to a pack of gum (mouth freshner), toothbrush and tongue cleaner. I am all set for a long ride.
As long as it's every bag, and not just the bags which belong to people who "look like terrorists."
And messy. Simply put, the more steps involved in making something go 'boom', the more chances for something to go wrong that results in it failing, or not going off at the right time. That is why the norm in military and commercial industries (mining, demo) is dynamite/TNT/plastic explosives. Easy to handle, you can set them off with precision, and not too many components involved in setting them off.
Nitroglycerin was used for blowing stuff up back in the day, though, just too many safety issues involved.
Too early to say what they were using, but one can create liquid based explosives with several off the shelf chemicals. How effective they are will depend on what was used (type of chemical, quantity of chemical...)
This is a plot by "BritAsians" !?! WTF? Really, there is now a "BritAsian" plot to blow up planes??? Is there also a BritAsian religion or politicial movement?
Please, excuse me while I throw up. This headline crosses the bounds of political correctness. It is a shameful example of mindless ethnic labeling that folks here otherwise seem to complain about a LOT.
Can we wait till the suspects are identified? And then PLEASE be honest about their affiliations and backgrounds.
Kobayashi - I grant your general point about the use of fear, both by terrorists and political leaders, as a tool. However, that doesn't mean that we should not increase scrutiny of possible methods of concealing explosives in the aftermath of a foiled plot.
According to Sky News, "imminent" means within the next 48 hours. The security services are also not entirely sure that they've caught absolutely everyone involved yet, so although they seem to have got the major figures, they regard the risk of a potential attack as still being present.
The potential fatality figure has been estimated to be greater than 9/11. 9 or 10 major transatlantic passenger jets destroyed would involve significantly more than a thousand dead. Even more so when you consider that, according to the ongoing and rapidly-developing investigation, the aim was to destroy these planes over 5 US cities, so there would have been "on the ground" fatalities as well.
Also, according to BBC News 24, the terrorists were apparently planning 3 waves of attacks (3 planes each time), separated by several days. Considering the fact that transatlantic flights would have been grounded (or at least severely restricted) after the first attack, I'm not sure how realistic this aim was, but it's still very bad indeed. All 9 flights destroyed simultaneously over the ocean or over cities would have been horrific.
I posted a few articles about all this on SM's news tab earlier today in response to "Breaking News" as it developed, so hopefully everyone caught that too.
From Wikipedia:
Philippine Airlines Flight 434 (PAL434, PR434) was the route designator of a flight that flew on a Ninoy Aquino International Airport near Manila, Philippines - Mactan-Cebu International Airport, Cebu - New Tokyo International Airport (Now Narita International Airport), Narita, Japan near Tokyo route. On December 11, 1994, Flight 434 was on its second leg from Cebu to Tokyo when a bomb exploded, killing one passenger.
Authorities later discovered that a passenger on the aircraft's preceding leg was Ramzi Yousef, who United States authorities have branded a master Al-Qaida bomber and terrorist. He was later convicted of The first World Trade Center bombing, for which he was sentanced to death by lethal injection. Yousef boarded the flight under an assumed name.
Yousef assembled a bomb in the lavatory and stuck it under Seat 26K on the right-hand side of the fuselage, setting the timer to explode the device four hours later. He and 25 other passengers left the plane at Cebu.
Two hours before e.t.a. at Tokyo, the bomb exploded at 11:43 P.M. while Flight 434 was at flight level FL310 above Minami Daito Island, which is located nearby Okinawa and is 260 miles (420 km) southwest of Tokyo. The explosion tore out a two square foot (0.2 m²) portion of the cabin floor and ripped the body of 24-year old Haruki Ikegami, a Japanese businessman occupying the seat, in half. He was an industrial sewing machine maker returning from a trip to Cebu. Flight attendants placed a blanket where he was seated. Ikegami did not survive. The bomb blew a hole into the floor revealing the cargo hold underneath. The fuselage of the plane stayed intact.
EI-BWF, the Boeing 747-283B made an emergency landing in Naha Airport, Okinawa, one hour after the bomb exploded. When the control columns stopped functioning normally, the crew turned to steering via throttle control, reminiscent of United Airlines Flight 232. None of the aircraft's other 272 passengers or 20 crew members died, although 10 passengers sitting in front of Ikegami were injured.
The seat where the bomb exploded (seat 26k) would normally be above the centre wing fuel tank on a Boeing 747 but on this particular model of 747 the tank was located slightly further back. Seat 26k was just one row in front of the tank.
US prosecutors said the device was a "Mark II" "microbomb" constructed using Casio digital watches as described in Phase I of Operation Bojinka of which this was a test. On Flight 434, Yousef used one tenth of the explosive power he planned to use on eleven U.S. airliners in January of 1995. The bomb was designed to slip through airport security checks undetected. The explosive used was liquid nitroglycerin, which was disguised as a bottle of contact lens fluid. The wires he used were hidden in the heel of his shoe. At that time, metal detectors used in airports did not go down far enough to detect anything there.
After the bombing, a man claiming to represent a rebel group said in a telephone call to the Manila office of the Associated Press, "We are Abu Sayyaf Group. We explode one plane from Cebu."
Ramzi Yousef was testing the bomb for use in the proposed Operation Bojinka terrorist attack. The bomb used on Flight 434 had one-tenth the power of the bombs he planned to use in the first phase of his project which was to bomb 11 aircraft over the Pacific Ocean.
Manila police uncovered his plan on the night of January 6 and the early morning of January 7, 1995, and Yousef was arrested a month later in Pakistan.
That is a good point. Although some of the suspects have been confirmed to be of Pakistani origin, this doesn't mean all of them are. They are, however, all British citizens and all (quote) "young Muslims".
Hmm..... Pretty extreme reaction to Brits laughing their asses off at Inzi.
Thanks Sage - I've updated the post with the info about Operation Bojinka.
Agreed.
Al Beruni:
I've been very careful concerning who was involved. I stated that we don't know yet, but that initial reports identify some of those arrested as British citizens of Pakistani origin. In an update I pointed out that the government has refused to confirm this, and that Brits of North African origin may have been involved as well.
Are Pakistani-Brits not BritAsians? I was looking for the shortest possible wording to put into the headline, despite what you might think. If it was about being PC, I would not have identified the suspects so directly in the rest of the post.
I am glad they have caught the fellows involved. Hopefully this clamor is over a real threat and not a bunch of loonies in a warehouse that pose no actual threat (remember Miami in June?).
On the flip side, if this is just a tactic to detract from atrocities in Lebanon, I am livid! Try air-travel with an infant or toddler without any liquids, apple sauce or other containers. As if it wasn't hard enough for the brown breast-feeding mamas who pump their milk and take them on board in little containers. I can only imagine what my pre-packed thermos of goodies for junior will look like to TSA.
I wish they would pay as much attention to our terrible schools or the dangers of leaving a toddler in a bathtub, (per Abhi's recent post on terrorism) which ultimately cause MUCH more harm than these stupid terrorists. Those dangers seem so much more *real* to me than this - at least until they can prove to me this is a REAL thtreat and not a bunch of illiterate loonies exercising in the middle of the night because they are wannabes...
sigh.
Good post Sage. Peter Bergen (?) mentioned this incident on CNN this morning.
Ek Aurat -
baby food is still allowed, but has to be tasted first. I split the whole science/security discussion concerning liquid explosives into another post b/c this update was getting too long to be easily readable.
But I also agree with Ennis about waiting for an official word that clearly states British citizens of Pakistani decent, if that turns out to be the case.
Ennis
And aren't they also human beings? So why not say: plot by humans to blow up planes foiled.
My own reading of your headline is: you are aware that there is likely to be an islamist angle to this whole tragedy, but you are too scared/pc to say so. If you really want to be super careful it would be better not to describe the suspects background until credible information is available.
But please dont make up imaginary linkages of the type your headline implies !
Oh dear.
I've removed the word BritAsian from the headline. I had originally put it in because it was the shortest way to signal to readers why this post was related to SM. At this point, I think everybody knows, so I've returned the headline to it's original, shorter, version.
Al Beruni, don't put words in my mouth please. You're dead set on seeing a PC angle where there isn't one. Again, if I was being PC, I would not have mentioned Pakistan. I have no problem identifying people involved. The original headline said nothing, then I decided to insert the word "BritAsian" because it was the shortest way to indicate the "brown content" of the post. I even tried "British of Pakistani Origin" but the headline got too unweildy.
If you want to insist that you can see into my head, I can't stop you from thinking so, but it's both incorrect and really annoying. It sounds to me like you've got a broader fantasy concerning being persecuted by an overly PC-SM, and you're just pushing that point here because it's convenient.
This is rich from the continent that devised both World Wars.
The threat was real, and I'm glad it was doused. But the overreaction to it (no drinks on planes! no planes!) will be just as real, and far more costly. Terrorgasm indeed.
I'll save this lunacy for posterity!
Ennis,
Since the plot had religious inspiration and not Asian inspiration, why not label the alleged plotters/suspects as British-Muslims.
Albeit with a caveat - i.e, British- Muslims who do not follow the true tenets of this otherwise religion of peace.
Well, looks like Bush is not so PC.. He claims "a stark remainder" that US is at war with "Islamic fascists".. Refer to breaking news from CNN
Because we're a brown blog, not a religious one and I was trying to indicate as tersely as possible why this post was of narrow as well as broad interest to the readers.
Honestly folks, I'm done answering questions on this. I've explained myself in the same way several times and it's not worth repeating myself further. I appreciated the feedback enough to revert the headline back to its original form, but I really don't have more to say on this.
Meanwhile this news item from Ohio...
What costs? Can you elaborate? You have better suggestions?
Ok, fair enough. You have also changed the headline and headlines do have meaning and impact on readers.
cut the meta out already. yeah, i think "british asians" is going to confuse a bit (though i doubt anyone thinks sikhs & hindus when they think of planes being blown up aside from canadians), but the story is barely out! let's let the data flow for, i don't know, a day or so, before the kulture of kritique kix in.
Also with another caveat - such people are also a rarity, in fact most muslims are unfairly labeled argumentative when it comes to discussions of theology and soteriology. This must stop.
From a colleague:
It's just funny how these things only seem to happen, or be reported, just after there is a blow to Bush in any way. Or the Dem's have a win of any kind.
I don't care how crazy this sounds. I find this development coming after Lieberman's defeat in the Connecticut primary, and after the release of a poll claiming that 60% of Americans are against the Iraq war to be very suspicious.
Before the 2004 elections, there was terror alert after terror alert after terror alert. After the elections? No more terror alerts!
Am I just too cynical?
Slightly off-topic: if investigations confirm that the suspects are of Pakistani origin, do you think this will change American policy/attitudes towards Pakistan vis-a-vis India? (i.e. will India's assertion that terrorist organizations based in Pakistan were responsible for the Bombay train blasts be taken more seriously?)
no. my bet is that these individuals are pakistani by origin, but their motivating ideology was transnationalism islamism. otherwise they would have focused on kashmir.
what #87 said...
Wow, that Gallup survey about American attitudes towards Muslims that Ramanan posted on the news tab is something.
I've just posted this on the news tab, but here it is again for anyone who's interested: According to The Times (British version), Pakistani intelligence was involved in foiling the plot. Online article here.
#88
Yamini, If a Pakistani angle is proven it will strengthen Mushraff's position in Pakistan. This in turn will give him a freer hand to promote his agenda against India and another few billion in arm's aid to the Pakistan army.
Dont for a minute think that the "west" has any interest in curbing terrorism against Indian's (or even ordinary Pakistani's for that matter).
cc says:
Which is it?
Why wouldn't they have done it before the elections?
Isn't it kinda too late now?
Why do you question the timing after a Lamont (DEM) win? What about the McKinney (DEM) loss?
Just admit it, you would question the timing before the election, after the election, if the Dems win, if the Dems lose, if it happens in the UK after American elections, the US, wherever? And if the attack went through successfully, you would be hyperventilating about Bush and Blair taking vacations instead of fighting terrorism.
In the modern information era, conspiracies are not as likely simply because people involved wouldn't be able to keep their mouths shut. If stuff the Government actively tries to keep classified and secret eventually leaks out, how the hell would you orchestrate a conspiracy on such grand scales. Wag the Dog was a fun movie, but in reality (of modern liberal republics) there are too many people involved for shit like that to fly.
This goes to all conspiracy theories, right or left wing nuts.
desitude and Ramanan:
You might also find this poll interesting about British Muslims view on 7/7 and related issues:
-one in ten thinks that the men who carried out the London bombings of 7/7 should be regarded as martyrs
-7 per cent agree that suicide attacks on civilians in Britain can be justified under certain circumstances, a figure that rises to 16 per cent if the target is the military
-2 per cent said they would be proud if a close relative joined al-Qaeda
-Nearly half (49 per cent) of Britains 1.6 million Muslims also think it acceptable for the authorities to monitor what is being preached in mosques more closely
Times Online 1
Times Online 2
Ooops. Replace Dem with Iraq War Opponent in my comment #94 above.
Its not called terrorism when brown people are killed, that's just brown on brown violence. West has a war on "terrorism" not on "brown on brown violence".
Yamini
You have the wrong end of the stick regarding the west and pakistan/india. British (and subsequent american) strategic interest in pakistan is based on location and religion. It has nothing to do with india.
Short of a direct attack on US on UK nationals, nothing will change here. This has been true since 1947 and will remain true for a very long time.
Thanks for the comments... yes, I'm aware that US/UK policies are based on what's good for US/UK security/political goals etc and not India's, that Indian lives don't really matter to them, and that it's useful to have a "friendly" dictator in power in a strategically important country. But I was wondering whether now, for purposes of their own security, the US/UK would put more pressure on Musharraf to crack down on the terrorist cells operating within Pakistan, which would indirectly help India. So far they've been accepting his excuses, which are (as far as I know) that they are officially banned and that he can't control everything. But maybe this is too naive. Of course, if the British terrorist operation was "home-grown" with no assistance from Pakistan-based cells, and if Pakistani intelligence did indeed work with UK intelligence, then all this is moot.
According to the Sky News channel, one of the wannabe bombers is only 17 (the oldest is 35), and apparently 2 of the people arrested appear to be non-desi Muslim converts as they have English names.
The latter seems to be contradicted by the ABC network, according to whom: "22 of those in custody are of Pakistani origin, one is Bangladeshi and another is Iranian." All are British citizens, as confirmed previously.
Latest article from Sky News here. There is currently a hunt underway for another 10 suspects.
Latest article from BBC News 24 here. Quotes: "US intelligence officials believe the plotters hoped to stage a practice run followed by actual attacks on up to 10 planes within days......According to US officials, the airlines to be targeted were United, American and Continental, which fly to New York, Washington and California."
#100
What seems more likely to me is that the bargain Musharaff has struck with the west is the following:
"We will dillegently protect western interests in this region, this includes active help in investigating terrorism (when directed at the west), allowing FBI a free run on intelligence gathering within Pakistan, bases (Jacobabad etc). In return we expect western understanding of our strategic interests which are:
1. Maintaining substantial influence in Afghanistan by allowing our Pustun allies a fair share of government (thus the attempt to float the "moderate" taliban).
2. Our Kashmir policy which includes (a)Political influence through the Hurriyat (b)Military influence through the LeT et al. We have legitimate reasons to be actively engaged in this region and this is the core of our "national policy".
3. The policy of terrorism within India (excluding Kashmir) will be greatly "indegenized" by recruiting local muslims and Pkistani groups will actively discaim such acts to increase deniability, this will reduce any "moral" pressures the west will feel to act on India's behalf. We need to maintain terrorism within India so that we bring India to the negotiating table under duress, where they are forced to concede more in each round of negotiations or face increasingly widespread attacks. This is the only major bargaining chip we have."
IreneFingIrene:
Yes, those are striking numbers. Ideological lunatics don't appear in a vacuum, they tend to develop organically in communities within which there is a spectrum skewed towards sympathy, but at the same time, its more important - imo - to retain judge ppl as individuals.
Jai:
According to the Sky News channel, one of the wannabe bombers is only 17 (the oldest is 35), and apparently 2
The Sepia Mutiny demographic. If only some of them had been reading this site. Lives utterly wasted.
Bongdongs #102: Fair enough - I'll buy that.
Seems like they already had an "inside man":
The News Hour with Jim Lehrer also reported the "inside man". They mentioned that the when the police raided the houses, airport secutiy worker was caught in his uniform.
I should have post this is in the Mumbai bombing post, but for all the Indians out there - ya got to stop hoping for the west to fight your war (as in putting pressure on pakistan to close their terrorist camps, or branding it a terrorist state). Its good if they do, but for the most part you are on your own - go do your stuff, use diplomacy, start a war, watever - just do your stuff and forget the west. defending your interest, in your country or outside, no matter the collateral is the new age mantra. Its time to get a backbone and do your thing.
Now I am going to go and hope that people get it in their head that brown does NOT equal to terrorist. I wish I could help the Muslim is NOT equal to terrorist, or the Pakistani is the NOT equal to terrorist kinds, but that seems to be an extremely difficult and uphill proposition these days, especially after today. Its just easier for the Pakistanis to call themselves Indians..
peace always
Until now, the only way I could be sure that I would not lose some items while flying was to carry it with me in the cabin.
That option is now gone too....
Say hello to more lost baggage. Travelling is going to be a lot more stressful and people are going to be more suspicious of each other. So much for feeling safer!
bongdongs -
"The policy of terrorism within India (excluding Kashmir) will be greatly "indegenized" by recruiting local muslims and Pkistani groups will actively discaim such acts to increase deniability, this will reduce any "moral" pressures the west will feel to act on India's behalf."
So true. Narendra Modi, y making it easy for the folks across the border, may very well have caused the biggest crisis India will face since her independence.
A couple of "indegenous" planned bombings in Ahmedabad will lead to a retaliation against the Muslims, which in turn will motivate more Muslims to join the "cause". And the cycle will repeat and repeat........
The cure - Try Modi and his coterie and mete out very, very, harsh punishment.
Maybe even the death penalty for a couple of high up people. This will offer some solace and salve the Muslim wounds.
Also, an abject apology by the Gujarati Hindus wouldn't be such a bad idea...
i carry a week of clothes and a suit and my running stuff in my carry on - along with my briefcase - the trick is to not use hard shell cases
Wow - I can't fit that much stuff in. Then again, I wear size 13s so just my running shoes take up close to 20% of a carry on.
ok. you got me there. i'm only a 10.5 and then... my evening life on a work trip involves sitting in my pj's in the hotel room tapping away at a computer.
btw - going over the british security guidelines, some of you traveling that side might consider investing in a dry bag such as this. i have one that is completely transparent - but it is fairly rugged and you can use it to cram a lot of clothes and stuff in it - and carry it around - with a locked clasp - rather than use a zip loc... i think this should be ok with the security folks.
Kritic:
Modi should be prosecuted for murder, but don't count on that reducing the amount of terrorism emanating from the Islamic fundamentalist camp. They will always have some pretext for attacking communities who live in "error". Those of us who identify as Indians need to ensure justice for all or we risk turning our country into Pakistan/Bangladesh..that is reason enough.
There is a recent column in the Guardian UK (not LGF !!) that refers to a survey showing that 30% of young Brit Muslims want Sharia law...sounds like this fundamentalist quarter of society rejects Western jurisprudence and would not be overly impressed with its faithful application in India.
Breaking News:
At least 2 of those arrested are said to be converts to Islam: Details from Sky News.
The Bank of England has also released the names of 19 of the 24 suspects. Sky News has the full list of names here.
There is a recent column in the Guardian UK (not LGF !!) that refers to a survey showing that 30% of young Brit Muslims want Sharia law...sounds like this fundamentalist quarter of society rejects Western jurisprudence and would not be overly impressed with its faithful application in India.
Muhammedan activists nearly established sharia personal law in Ontario, Canada as well, until a sensible politician stepped in and saw the lunacy of multiculturalism for what it was.
Very well put. Sometimes I really despair when I see indian folk saying stuff like: now the world will understand our plight and help us. If indians cannot take care of their own citizens, cannot build on their own cultural foundations (multicultural folk and religous traditions, long history of different communities living side-by-side) then no one is gonna help them.
This foiled plot will probably help Pakistan in its relationship with the West. Pakistan is being thanked for the aid they have provided in foiling this plot.
http://www.apnaorg.com/columns/spsingh/column-5.html
The fact is this all relates to how Muslims see themselves and the West and visa versa, and teh key debate of Palistine. Until these are resolved and fundamentalist values on both sides are destroyed it will never end. In the meantime all Browns will be seen as Arab Terroists or Indian Sub continet ones. See Singh's article on Palestines ( NB whilst we all look at London Israel has pushed north with its invasion) and recall Tariq Ali comment that Israeel situation is like the jew kicked out of a window by a german Christian onto a passingby Palestinian Muslim. SO whose fault is it?
I hate Bush's policies and Blair's but two wrongs don't make a right either. It is even more embarrasing that the 7/7 bombers were mostly Punjabis who prefer their religion over their culture, which is ignored over nationalism based on religion ( Pakistan dnad Israel are religion based countries, thank God we failed getting Khalistan). Those arrested this time appear to mainly be British Punjabi muslims also. Whatwever happned to Sufi thought?
9/11 has only chnaged one thing, it has reverted the world back to pre soviet east and west mistrust, as has european, british and american plocies and Arab Wayybiism clontroling the radical youths.
Being brown had become dangerous in UK. What about USa? Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist are all being forced to take sides, which is unacceptable but true...
PS a programme on TV on Monday called what do Muslims want? Unfortuately showed those younger than 45 are radical and wnat tp convert the world to islam..bit like Bush wants us all to be Christians. Sorry if this os anti-secular, but the fact is the semtic cousins (read the WESTERN faiths of ISlam ( yes western white folks, not eatern) Chritianity and Judaism fight amongst thenmselves, and pull in all the rest ( read Buddhism, Hinduism ,Jainism, Sikhi, Tao a. Athisest etc) Sorry baout the spellings