Likely targets include all of us, in some way. This is an extra depressing week…

We are all Jews now.

"... this time, ALL Muslims should be "cajoled" to move into their new "Mulsim - desh"

We are all Jews now.

Charming!

Likely targets include all of us, in some way. This is an extra depressing week…

and there i was thinking... if the hyenas catch up with me at the airport... that i'd send out an email seeking rescue via the blackberry before it gets confiscated ... and one of you will swoop in clad wearing a gold mask and basanti leotards (i was hoping, it would be you or neha - i cant imagine ennis' size 13 feet getting through the tights ... :-o)

and for the rest of you.. if you needs some hair on your chest... i can send you my shoulder clippings... there's loads here. heaps. bushels. that shag carppet in my home-office is all my sheddings.

We are all Jews now.

So we all get to colonize some 3rd world people?

So we all get to colonize some 3rd world people?

he didn't say "we are all israelis nows," did he?

the hindutvas aren't the only knee-jerks around here.

We are all Jews now.

I hope that doesn't extend to cuisine. I can't eat Chinese take out everyday.

Likely targets include all of us, in some way.

When I wrote this, I had misgivings about being misunderstood but I told myself to be optimistic. What I meant was that terrorism affects all of us, in ways which are obvious (knowing someone who just missed a train in mumbai, who was in the WTC as it was hit) and not so obvious (feeling increasing dread and fear with each successive incident). I'm sorry that I was inarticulate and that my less-than-stellar choice of phrasing has resulted in any kind of negativity towards anyone, Jewish or Muslim.

This is an extra depressing week…

Sigh. Moreso, now that I slightly regret posting this story.

he didn't say "we are all israelis nows," did he?

'They' dont also hate all Jews either. 'They' are targetting Israel, not random Jews on the street.

Actually, AMfD, quite often "they" hate all Jews, in and out of Israel. Many of "them" graduated from anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism a long time ago.

We are all Jews now.

Huh. Where did THAT come from?

Deleting my post doesn't change a thing, Anna

Look at Gujarat. The perpetrator [Narendra Hitler Modi] of the progrom against the wretched Muslims of that state is still in power.
Outside of the fascist state of Gujarat, Muslims in the rest of "secular" India are relegated to life of ghettos and of fear and distrust. Not to mention, the ever present abuse at the hands of the Indian secular security forces.

Under those circumstances, what is wrong with suggesting that a seperate state should be carved out for them.

Secularism is all hunky dory, when you are living in the lap of luxury here in the US.
Anyways, I am only suggesting what a Muslim state minister in Uttarpradesh demanded the other day. Remember?

I visited this blog today following the incoming link from Amardeep's recent post. Fascinating stuff here.

Whereas I empathise with the overall depression caused by the recent events, I'd like to draw your attention to a poem by a Pakistani woman writer translated by Khushwant Singh here

Further, there are many across the globe who would confirm that the ongoing resistance in the middle east is not a muslims-vs-jews battle. It is about the forced displacement of people from their own homeland left to live in refugee ghettos facing continued injustice....and if I may add brutal humiliation and elimination of secular leadership from the region!

Hope I am not being polemical here.
Peace to all!

Actually, AMfD, quite often "they" hate all Jews, in and out of Israel. Many of "them" graduated from anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism a long time ago.

Cant argue with that. However 'they' have not yet targetted Jews outside of Israel yet. From the top of my head I can think of the attack in Argentina (though 'they' did not do that) and then this crazy Pakistani dude in Seattle. I guess you might include attacks on some Jews in France, Belgium and Austria though I wonder if 'they' did those.
Look I know that there is a lot of anti-semitism in the Arab community both here and in the Middle East. The Anti-Semitism is now spreading over to other non-arab muslim communities as well (Seattle Pakistani dude) but I dont believe that it has reached a level where people want to commit mass scale violence on all Jews living outside Israel.

'They' dont also hate all Jews either. 'They' are targetting Israel, not random Jews on the street.

a friend of mine is jewish and knows arabic (as well a bunch of other languages, he's a lang. nerd). he heard a man talking in a coffee shop chatting on the phone in arabic, and asked him what dialect it was. they chatted a bit in arabic, and the arab dude gave my friend a look, and asked "are you a jew?" (my friend looked kind of jewish) my friend freaked out and something told him to lie, so he was like, "no, i'm bulgarian." the arab guy nodded and went about his business. my friend saw his picture a few years later on TV, he was one of the 9-11 bombers.

anyway, my friend has never been to israel. but he is a jew.

i don't necessarily think that manju's comment was the most apropos or conducive to future conversation, but your knee jerk response was simply amplifying the thread devolving into jew-talk. anyway, my last comment too, as i'm a sinner obviously now as well. i pray to the non-existent god that thread doesn't explode into a sh*t-fest. peace.

Amfd and other anti imprialists -

How do you guys continue to live in the US and Canada?
Given that both these nations were formed by eliminating millions of souls who were resident here for thousands of years.

Why not send these evil colonizers a message, by depriving the man of your talents and relocating to the land of your parents.
Otherwise, stop criticizing Israel.

Cant argue with that. However 'they' have not yet targetted Jews outside of Israel yet

i don't necessarily think that manju's comment was the most apropos or conducive to future conversation, but your knee jerk response was simply amplifying the thread devolving into jew-talk.

I agree that my comment was needlessly inflammatory. I guess Manju laid the bait and I got caught!

my friend freaked out and something told him to lie, so he was like, "no, i'm bulgarian." the arab guy nodded and went about his business. my friend saw his picture a few years later on TV, he was one of the 9-11 bombers.

Dude, that is chilling.

Willsomeone here explain to me the difference between the ghettos in the middle east and the ghettos, where the natives of this land live here in the US and Canada?
Where the suffering has been going on for much longer........

Deleting my post doesn't change a thing, Anna

Anna did not delete your comment; each of us moderates the threads.

Likely targets include all of us, in some way.

Meanwhile, below the fold, the odds of being a target remain higher in some places than in others, although those explosions may just be the flying shards of a better tomorrow.

Sigh.

How do you guys continue to live in the US and Canada?
Given that both these nations were formed by eliminating millions of souls who were resident here for thousands of years.

Why not send these evil colonizers a message, by depriving the man of your talents and relocating to the land of your parents.
Otherwise, stop criticizing Israel.

I am not anti-US. I do understand that over time nations have occupied other nations and there have been large displacements of indigenous population. China is sitting over Tibet and Russians are brutally putting down the Chechnyans. I will now not support a militant insurgency against the US government by the Indian population in the US.
The problem with Israel is that its expansion never stops. The settlements never stop. The land grab never stops either. If the Israelis would give all Palestinians Israeli passports and rights, people will eventually move on. Israel is a little unique this way. They want to occupy the West Bank (and previously Gaza) with no intent to incorporate the Palestinians into the fabric of the Israeli society. This for me puts Israel more into the category of apartheid South Africa than an imperialist nation.

Daniel Pearl was killed in Pakistan for being a jew.

So was the defenseless Jewish woman in Seattle by Naved Haq. Btw just imagine if a Muslim had been shot dead outside a Mosque in Dearborn by a drive by Redneck! That would have been all over the news including the subject of at least two posts on SM.

Amfd,

Israel is only 58 years old.
I am sure you well versed in early American history and the "rights" afforded to the natives in those days.

I am sure you well versed in early American history and the "rights" afforded to the natives in those days.

Yes and thats exactly my point. In 'those' days I would not have supported the United States. If Israel stops the occupation or completely incorporates the Palestinians as full members into the Israeli society, than 125 years from today, I will not bitch about Israel. Hell, I would stop bitching about Israel in a week if they were able to do that.

Amfd,

I missed this - "I will now not support a militant insurgency against the US government by the Indian population in the US. "

would you be supportive of a Palestinian militant insurgency against Israel?

To veer back to the topic - do any of our India-based readers have some input into tightened security at Indian airports and rail stations?

How do you guys continue to live in the US and Canada?

oh yaar. there's enough ghum in the world without you trying for another guilt trip. most of us are just tryng to have a good time until we get the call... maybe sooner now. all the more reason to step out and dance on the streets, scratch a dog's head, tickle a baby's belly.

factions in the west and political islamism will be battling it out for all eternity -whether in a middle eastern backwater or in a shiny metroplis. given the evangelical impetus in us foreign policy at the moment, I am tempted to say good on them, they deserve each other. india is foolish to get into this ruckus. theyve to figure out a way to keep the outsourcing dollars and technology transfers flowing while maintaining relationships with some middle eastern states, particluarly iran, which is still a check against pakistan. take the damn money and stay out of it India, no one cares about you but you. but knowing the quality of indian diplomacy, this is unlikely.

Eh, I think y'all are getting carried away moping into a mush of an ethnographic basis*. It's a good tool of analysis, but it's not the only way of looking at things, and I think the depression and hopelessness it engenders is not always worth the insight it yields.

When all is said and done people want power, and bad people will trade on whatever emotional manipulation and political currency they can scrounge to increase it--sometimes fatally miscalculating what action will cause what consequence, and sometimes pumping up their power perfectly. Sadly, right now all the factors seem to be indicating a perfect feedback cycle for warring parties to keep their war on.

I am no fan of bombing Lebanon or oppressing the Palestinians, but not even all Israelis have the kind of colonial mentality you're decrying. The families of many of my Israeli friends were genuinely chased there from the Middle East and Eastern Europe, having lost everything, and lacking anywhere else to go--and interestingly enough, it's often these Israelis who are the most pacifist. There are spectrums and options in all things, and one of the reasons why stereotyping, racism, anti-Semitism, anti-Arabism, and anti-whateverIsm are so dreadful is that these Isms turn us on auto pilot, and ruin our ability to accept humanity's shade and nuance. That also poisons our ability to believe in free will, in persuasion, in diplomacy, in change--in peace and prosperity. Sure, if you're a Bayesian Savant like Razib apparently is, you can hold trends and averages and probabilities in your head and make reasonable guesses and conjectures while still keeping the possibilities of divergence firmly in your mind. The rest of us, however, are usually better off humbling remembering that our brains can't do statistics worth crap, and instead striving to keep our minds relatively free from generalization.

We're all human beings. The political structures and philosophies our births and choices have aligned us with may may make it easier or harder for us to do good and bad things, but ultimately any evil action you object to was committed by a finite, numbered set of human beings and not by the label that best describes them.

*I mean basis in the sense of a linear algebra basis. Geek with me or move along.

would you be supportive of a Palestinian militant insurgency against Israel?

I am not in support of the thuggery of Hamas and their rather barbaric tactics of attacking Pizza parlors and restaurants. So at this point, no, I do not support the Palestinian resistance especially as its being spearheaded by Hamas/Islamic Jihad.

Kritic:
If you are a proponent of the Two Nation theory, then aggrieved Muslims already have a country they can move to (i.e. Pakistan) without displacing more Hindus. I don't subscribe to that theory that is so popular amongst the Pakistani mainstream & the Hindu fringe (i.e. RSS), so let's focus on realizing India's secular goals instead of working to tear the country apart.

SM intern/bloggers: Manju's comments are deleted, Kritic's comments in favor creating another Muslim state in India (by displacing Hindus) are not...why ? While the Hindutvaadi agenda is deplorable, how is it that the SM community is able to rationalize "Muslim rage" in terms of loss/displacement when "Hindu rage" is seen as sociopathy pure & simple without consideration of legitimate grievances like the trauma of Partition, the targeted killings of Hindus in East Pakistan etc. ? Some even handedness please....

if you're a Bayesian Savant like Razib apparently is

*squint* are you joking? or serious?....

also, you mean principle components of variation, right? :)

Kritic -

1) The subcontinent was alreaday divided and has produced mixed results as a "solution" to the "issue" of communalism.

2) Whether we live in Canada or (India) injustice merely emerges in different modalities. Here were talk of displacement or colonialism, there we talk of caste and agrestic slavery. No nation/state is innocent of it.

Getting back to the topic at hand. I wonder why these groups have waited for five years (barring the attack on the Indian parliament) to go after the Indian State. I expected it to be much sooner. Any ideas on the timing of this?

Jilted Manhood has a good point. For the Canadians here, consider the ongoing Caledonia dispute, where the Six-Nations aboriginal community denies the validity of Canadian court-order and insists in nation-to-nation negotiations to resolve the ownership of the land. Canada (I won't speak for the US) has legitimacy issues -- we really are all Israelis now.

Oh, about Seattle -- the guy was on lithium, and was earlier arrested for flashing his penis in a mall. If murder was only committed by mentally-ill gentilia-flashers, the world would be a safer place. (And the attack of a Sikh man by a nut in California did result in a handwringing SM post -- this blog exists in Saheli's ethnographic basis)

SM intern/bloggers: Manju's comments are deleted, Kritic's comments in favor creating another Muslim state in India (by displacing Hindus) are not...why ? While the Hindutvaadi agenda is deplorable, how is it that the SM community is able to rationalize "Muslim rage" in terms of loss/displacement when "Hindu rage" is seen as sociopathy pure & simple without consideration of legitimate grievances like the trauma of Partition, the targeted killings of Hindus in East Pakistan etc. ? Some even handedness please....

My point exactly! Here's a gem from a much admired commenter ( Mr kobayashi ):

more important than the real results of patient police work (to catch the culprits) and (more importantly, and much less likely to happen) addressing the political concerns that lead to terrorism in the first place

This on a thread about the Mumbai blasts. The man is trying to figure out the politicalgrievances of the killers who blew up hundreds of men and women returning home after a hard day at work. Just imagine if some commenter had suggested figuring the grievances of Hindu savages involved in Gujarat riots. Forget about being friends of SM, they'd summarily have been banned.

I have nothing personally against SM or the bloggers. They are smart people and do a good job. But leftist slant is too obvious.

But leftist slant is too obvious

only cuz V-man is too busy with this job :)

Good god, is every post going to decay in to meta- carping?

Good god, is every post going to decay in to meta- carping?

a thought. perhaps SM admin could declare a closed-comments week. just a thought :)

I know it's kind of a common occurrence, and Indians have been dealing with LeT for years now, but as I pointed out on the UK Plot thread from yesterday, Indian police picked up two LeT members carrying RDX and detonators. Here's the link: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1882646.cms

But leftist slant is too obvious.

Where the hell is Vinod?
He can surely provide some fairness and balance ;)

If you want a real leftist slant, go here.

Where the hell is Vinod?

mallu-boy is hittin' the greenback baby, hittin' the greenback :)

a thought. perhaps SM admin could declare a closed-comments week. just a thought :)

Only if you are willing to allow us to pontificate here ;)

Only if you are willing to allow us to pontificate here ;)

only if you focus on neutral theory vs. nearly neutral theory. probability of fixation baby, oh yeah....

If only I were as bright as Amardeep, and could comprehend Amitav Kumar's post-post-modern conversion to Islam where he crossed his fingers and still gets to eat ham sandwiches, I would feel ready for Counterpunch

Manju's comments are deleted, Kritic's comments in favor creating another Muslim state in India (by displacing Hindus) are not...why ?

For the record, nobody deleted my comments. Kritic had a comment deleted (those are his words in post #2, above mine) I think b/c it was interpreted to be hate speech...ie, just seperate muslums by putting themin their own litte ghetto--to which badmash (in post #2) cleverly observed it puts another twist in my "we are all jews now" line.

But I think Kritic was just being facetious, pointing out the irony that radical muslims want to segregate themselves, and if a non-muslim advocated this he'd be called a bigot. ergo, the deletion, to bring it full circle.

i'm going to keep this meta short: yes, bias exists. i don't agree with that bias myself. but, everyone, please keep in mind that admins are human with finite time, energy and resources, and this is never a forum that is sold as "unbiased." if you have opinions which go "against the grain" the best way to make sure you are heard isn't to complain, but to humanize yourself and be respectful, become a human instead of an opinion to those who disagree with you. that's my experience as a blogger & a blog commenter.

Manju # 46 -

Not only are you mighty pretty, you are also mighty perceptive....

Manju/Kritic:

My apologies for the confusion. I've been laid up with a fever the past two days, which is why I find myself with time to post and an impaired ability to read subtext. Related question, how do you guys find time for this at work ?

SM intern: My criticism was misplaced in this thread, but still stands

Razib: You are right, will need to give louiecypher human form before expecting anything of the regulars/bloggers

My back is kinda messed up, again. So, I am compelled to stay bed ridden for a few days.
And since I have nothing but time on my hands, I share my [solicited ot not] opinions with the rest of youuse.
But fret not, this too shall pass.......

It's times like this when I am glad I lack of ambition for seeing the world and even the states that surround me makes me a winner. I havent left the Chicago land area for about 3 years and havent been on a planes in about 12 years. In conclusion, I am safe the rest of you are not.

Its only a matter of time before a terrorist decides to go on a flight with passengers coming back from a chili eating festivel and waits for the right amount of methane in the air and the rest is scary history.

I hear you Shallowthinker. I would gladly trade all the wonders of the world & the love of a good woman, if I could return to Schaumburg, IL. Do not let the world corrupt you.

Is this you :-)
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29383

Anna quoted:

The U.S. embassy in India warned American citizens on Friday of likely terrorist attacks, possibly by al Qaeda, in or around New Delhi and Mumbai in the run-up to the country’s Independence Day celebrations next week.

some on this thread have asked why now? it's an intersting question. according to the NYTimes:

India's emergence as a global economic power appears to have increased its attractiveness as a target for Islamic militant groups, more than a dozen of which are already battling New Delhi's rule over two-thirds of Kashmir, a predominantly Muslim region split between India and Pakistan.

While some of those groups are believed to have ties to al-Qaida, the terror network has not in recent memory targeted India itself.

Some experts said India could now be a target because of its economic success and growing ties to the U.S.

''It's a serious message from these people that we should look out if we're going to align ourselves with the Americans,'' said retired Indian Gen. Ashok Mehta.

One idea that has started to regenerate in my head and after reading several blogs over the last couple of days has been this... Where's the real outrage in the Muslim world? As a Hindu kid who grew up in a Jewish neighborhood in a mostly Protestant country, I have always been a huge proponent of the overriding mores (e.g. separation of church and state) that has created our modern society in which the aforementioned was possible. At the same time, I also had the freedom and independence to come to my own opinions and express my point of view. This is what caused me to rail against Israeli abuses of Palestinians during the same time that we used to learn about the Holocaust. Yet even with all the lingering effects of colonialism, most of the world has gone forward trying to make for a better day tomorrow. Except, it seems, for much of the Muslim world? Imagine if Pakistan actually did spend more time and effort trying to educate all its youth (instead of pushing a lot of families to the dangerous madrassas)? What if the Saudis actually spent money on science instead of sharia-enforcing law enforcement? My heart goes out to the Lebanese, but one must wonder how much more Iranian money Hezbollah could have actually spent on more public works than going after Israel... a country the size of New Jersey. Isn't it pathetic that 36% of Palestinian teens say they would be proud to be martyrs? You can blame societies and the world, but how about the home too? With all due respect, I've had an open mind, and I still do. But where's the damn outrage in the Muslim world?

As for those of you who think that us second-generation Indians should return to our "ancestral" home. Clearly, you have no idea about what makes this country great. Moreover, you are being oblivious to human history and something called migration. When the Mughals first showed up in India, they weren't Indian. Why don't you try to also get most of the West Indies to get back to its roots?

manju,

osama was considering a jihad against india prior to 9-11 from what i remember. remember it was once part of the dar-al-islam, and his ideology contends that once you go dar-al-islam, you never go back.

Yet even with all the lingering effects of colonialism, most of the world has gone forward trying to make for a better day tomorrow

i don't know, this seems too vague to say anything. i mean, what about africa? and frankly, if you look at social metrics much of the muslim world (e.g., the arab world) has better vital statistics than south asia (even including non-oil countries). i agree with the sentiment (i think?), but i'm afraid that i don't have much meaty to grapple with here.

jilted manhood

Just imagine if some commenter had suggested figuring the grievances of Hindu savages involved in Gujarat riots.

I do think it would be an excellent idea to address the political grievances of all people who feel the need to murder others to advance their own causes. I think this is true both for extremist Muslims and for extremist Hindus. But I also think that the grievances of minorities are, by definition, easier to ignore.

In any case, I had a family member in the Bombay bombings- he escaped with his life, but his hearing's damaged (we hope it's temporary), and the man sitting next to him that day was killed. So my thinking, different as it my be from yours, comes also from a profound wish to see such things cease.

As for that "much-admired commenter Mr Kobayashi," I know him well and I'll have you know he's a first class idiot, so if you don't like what he has to say, don't pay him no mind.

i don't know, this seems too vague to say anything. i mean, what about africa? and frankly, if you look at social metrics much of the muslim world (e.g., the arab world) has better vital statistics than south asia (even including non-oil countries). i agree with the sentiment (i think?), but i'm afraid that i don't have much meaty to grapple with here.

But I doubt they have the velocity of improvement, eg. tripling of pergap gdp in 25 yrs?

If you want a real leftist slant, go here.

Or here.

But I doubt they have the velocity of improvement, eg. tripling of pergap gdp in 25 yrs?

sure, but when you start from a low baseline that isn't hard. my overall point is that the political autocracy in the arab world masks the reality that in terms of quality of life there are many stats where it is far superior to south asia. anyone who has scanned color coded world atlases of human geography will know that.

sure, but when you start from a low baseline that isn't hard. my overall point is that the political autocracy in the arab world masks the reality that in terms of quality of life there are many stats where it is far superior to south asia. anyone who has scanned color coded world atlases of human geography will know that.

No it is hard to do, or everyone would be doing it :-). But the thing is with a billion + people, any absolute growth in economic clout in the region is going to change the world somewhat, or even a lot, even if there is a an abiding chasm with the developed world per cap wise. Though I don't think any country in the region rises to the level of a "power" at the moment.

osama was considering a jihad against india prior to 9-11 from what i remember. remember it was once part of the dar-al-islam, and his ideology contends that once you go dar-al-islam, you never go back.

Yes, Osama explicitly mentioned that 'kafirs' are oppressing 'believers' in Kashmir and Assam in his 1996 fatwa.. I was surprised at his inclusion of Assam..

what surprises me is the hypocrisy of this blog.....you don't hesitate to paint the entire sister organizations of VHP/RSS/BJP as "fundamentalists", without ever referring to the good deeds they do when it comes to natural calamities, education in rurual places(i know someone will point to the textbook issues)...etc....however, when it comes to categorizing the muslims...somehow you become tolerant...!! If muslim community does not become vigilant in identifying the "rotten apples" amongst them..and handing over to the authorities...they are guilty by association...the same logic you use to smear the Sangh Parivar....have you guys ever to been to muslim areas in Bombay/Hyderabad???...they hoist "Pakistan Flags"...I have personally heard the "Firecrackers" when Pakistan tested Nuclear bombs...they don't want to sing "Vande Mataram"...Reason??...they won't hold anything higher in esteem than Islam!!...if you use that logic...then, if war breaks out with Pakistan...would they support India or support the "Islam" on the other side???....looking at the events in UK...I wouldn't be surprised...SO..the religion itself is an issue...Islam(where its majority) does not tolerate other ways of life...(dozens of examples)....ANNA & team...don't bend over backwards to say what IS....muslim community has to do soul searching...otherwise..call it what they are!!!

I do think it would be an excellent idea to address the political grievances of all people who feel the need to murder others to advance their own causes.

I think this is complicated by a tendency to project our own political grievances onto terrorists, as a way of saying "look, this policy is so bad and makes people so desperate that they become terrorists." We pick and choose the palatable grievances (Israel, colonialism, Iraq) but ignore the inconvenient ones (lack of an Islamic state, too much sexual freedom, sharia law, democracy, etc).

But they can't be separated.

manju,

it is often important to understand your enemy so you can get a good angle to cut their throat. i agree about the part about focusing on commonalities, etc. the key is maintain some level of epoche during one's analytic phase.

what's an amfd?

what's an amfd?

It is a peculiar creature that holds the "palatable grievances" in comment #64, without sharing in the inconvenient ones.

The "Al-Mujaheed for Debauchery" is basically Dick Cheney's worst nightmare.

Kritic (#11),

I'm the one who deleted your comment, and I have no regrets about doing so, as it sounded to me like you were suggesting ethnic cleansing to remove the Muslims from India. And indeed, you did talk about "cajoling" the minority to leave, and you put the word "cajoling" in quotation marks, suggesting that what you really meant was "forcing". So the fact that you're now trying to make it sound like you were just being ironic doesn't really hold water.

When people talk about pushing all the members of any religious group out of a country, they're in Hitler and Milosevic territory. Even if some members of that group are in fact violent fanatics (which no one here is denying), that is not the way to deal with it.

Award for best turn of phrase on SM today:

it is often important to understand your enemy so you can get a good angle to cut their throat

Runner Up:

It is a peculiar creature that holds the "palatable grievances" in comment #64, without sharing in the inconvenient ones

--very clever Mr. K, you argue w/o arguing. I believe someone once termed it the salvador dali approach to poitics, where originality and aesthetics matter more than anything else...like zidane's perfectly executed headbut.

Strange. All I see in today's Hindustan Times is that a LeT miltant was arrested near Kashmiri Gate. Wouldn't it be all over the papers if this really was happening?

Suraj I feel your pain, but you must understand that reality has a Hindu nationalistic bias, so we need to lambast any organization that supports such an agenda. And don't jump to conclusions so soon, so what if muslims in India lit firecrackers when Pakistan tested missiles? Perhaps they were testing the firecrackers to thwart off the attack, implicitly insulting Pakistans weapons capabilities. Or maybe they were firecrackers of opposition, like "hell no we won't go *firecracker* *firecracker*" You shouldn't be so quick to assume things.

AMFD,

What do you think of the two state solution? If you do not like it, can you explain why ?

@Saheli

*I mean basis in the sense of a linear algebra basis. Geek with me or move along.

respect. total respect.

Strange. All I see in today's Hindustan Times is that a LeT miltant was arrested near Kashmiri Gate. Wouldn't it be all over the papers if this really was happening?

It is all over the place (300+ articles on GooNews).

Perhaps it is reality in the only Hindu-majority country in the world

hindu majority = nepal & india. respect the facts :)

As for that "much-admired commenter Mr Kobayashi," I know him well and I'll have you know he's a first class idiot, so if you don't like what he has to say, don't pay him no mind.

Mr K:

Nothing personal. I could be mad ( yes I won't mince words ) at Mr K's opinions but not at Mr K, the person. I am sure you are a very likable guy and a good human being too. I might not agree with, but mostly I do appreciate an opposite point of view. I break ranks with conservatives on several issues like immigration, Dubai ports, or even on the Yale Taliban! I have however not heard or read anything yet that will make me believe that Islamic terrorists have legitimate grievances. I have however heard, read and seen too much to believe the opposite. As Bush-like ( and hence bigoted to many liberals ) as it may sound, I think it's either we get them first or they'll get us eventually.

I have however not heard or read anything yet that will make me believe that Islamic terrorists have legitimate grievances.

one may have legitimate grievances and still go about them the wrong way (understatement). additionally, there are different classes of islamic terrorists. the ones who kill their own fellow citizens are in a different class from those (like the pak-brit potential bombers) who work on the international stage. the former are tragic, but the GIA in algeria is not an existential threat to the USA. liberals do often fear to name the beast, but conservatives often seem intent on cutting throats willy-nilly.

Alienator

You will never get good answers to your questions from "liberal" folk. You see countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia have no responsibility for spreading values like education, math, employment training etc. They may be pretty rich but all this education-sheducation stuff is the responsibility of europeans, indians and chinese. Never mind that millions live in misery just a few hundred miles away from these countries (pakistan, eastern africa, north india). Never mind that a good portion of these millions are in fact muslim.

Its a strange world. Jihadis kill target and kill a professor at the indian institute of science. There is no outrage at this, no demonstrations anywhere. The indian goverment is soooo incompetent at protecting its citizens; it will react only when the political class is attacked as in the parliament terrorism.

Sigh.....

ref: Suraj #63-- exactly! what was shabana azmi doing when the fireworks were going off in mumbaimohallas?.

As for you comments on the firecrackers, do you honestly believe those examples you gave? Just a question

Yes of course, because the firecrackers were most probably bought in India, and that money will do none other than feed India's economy, at once burned, the remains will biodegrade into the earth, and I'm almost embarassed to remind all of the 1922 Agricultural Foundation of the World report linking firecracker residue and a 13% increase in soil irrigation, it would do nothing bolster the agronomy of the region for years to come. These conclusions have years of research behind them, not to be thrown around willy nilly, nor are they made by any Tom, Dick, and !xobile.

Gautham, before you freak out, HMF is being ironic. He's making fun of liberals who make absurd arguments to justify/explain Islamic fundamentalism.

It's not especially funny, of course, because no one here is doing that. But I believe humor is intended.

Suraj I feel your pain, but you must understand that reality has a Hindu nationalistic bias, so we need to lambast any organization that supports such an agenda.

A reality among middle class Hindus for sure. Mixed bag among the others.

My apologies for the confusion. I've been laid up with a fever the past two days, which is why I find myself with time to post and an impaired ability to read subtext.

And my handle should explain my surly behavior.

A great war is inevitable. The sooner we realise this the better.

A great war is inevitable. The sooner we realise this the better.

such hyperbole makes it is easy for the Left to sneer at the Right.

I never joke. and when I do, I'm never funny. Like the last joke I made, I was poking fun at gun culture at the annual NRA convention. It wasn't particularly funny there either, but I never joke.

Al beruni (ref #80), please don't affix labels to people. It is all too easy to villify those who have different beliefs and opinions than us. I don't have a problem with that, I respect that. At the same time, I have a huge problem with people who think killing other people is a valid solution to the problems that face whatever society one lives in. This isn't a liberal versus conservative thing. I made 400 freakin' phone calls for Howard Dean in 2004, and voted for GWB in 2000. What I'm raising is a responsibility issue. As Hillary Clinton, who I really despise politcally, once said it takes a village. Well, my question to the Muslim world, not just the Arab world but all Islamic majority states is this, what type of village do you guys want?

#(72)HMF and #(75) Gautham

To be very honest, its not that I "just believe", I have witnessed them personally...so, I don't have your luxury of passing the event as an innocous one...plus, I did my high school in an institution run by a muslim organization with only 10 students of 50 being non-muslims..... The teachers were great. But here are some of the issues, I experienced first hand in my teen years:
1.Whenever we practiced cricket in the evenings, after school, the discussion hovered around Pak team. How great and awesom was Imran Khan/Javed Miandad...etc. etc. I wouldn't have minded if it was purely an appreciation of the skills, rather than a over zealous enthusiam of wanting them do "better" than Indian players in the Mecca of cricket (Sharjah).
2.They openly admitted in class, that they were stunned and filled with sorrow to see Zia ul Haq go away.
3.They did'nt think, they ought to sing National Anthem or respect the Flag.
For a guy going through high school, this was an eye opener, for being among them....when I went to college, where we had representation from ALL states in India....it became apparent that, what I has witnessed was not an isolated incident or something that was specific to where I lived.

I also made couple of great muslim friends, who didn't partake in the above activities. But they were in minority...So, when the perpetrators start having an awfully common characteristics, it becomes the responsibility of the community to "self monitor" and assist in the smooth functioning of the society.
When a mullah makes a highly "seditious" speech, I expect the community to shun such leaders and help the authorities to take right action. But the reality is...its not happening. Whether its UK or India, the muslim community has a whole has failed to take corrective actions to prevent radicalization of their youth or they simply approve of such behaviour by ignoring it. Either way, I would hold them responsible...and would not accept their greivance that, they are being harassed.......

I don't profess nor believe in stigmatizing a community..but, with the risks and with no commitment from them...I would not be so sure.

Razib,

Whether or not left sneers at right is irrelevant. Political considerations will be subsumed by economic and security necessities.

Gautham,

For some of the Hindu-centrism you would like to see, check out the yahoo group below. The messages are available to the public so you don't have to join. Its Rajiv Malhotra representing "Dharma" and Vijay Prashad (The Karma of Brown Folks) representing the Federation of Indian Leftists. After a while, Prashad just stopped debating, though Malhotra kept at it over the years. The dialog still contains a lot of interesting information and is at times entertaining.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dharma-FOIL-Dialog/

such hyperbole makes it is easy for the Left to sneer at the Right.

Razib there is plenty of such hyperbole from the left too. And trust me a lot of moderates right now are much more fearful of the left than the right. Besides the above statement is not entirely hyperbole. For every ( Islamic ) terrorist act that has been consummated at least five deadly ones have been prevented. If 9/11 had been thwarted and the plot been revealed a lot of the left would have branded it right wing fear mongering.

left bias, right bias... take your left and right wings and fly away!!!! you are all fascoi-communists... fully cognizant of the fact that hindu jamaicans salute the hindu flag every time hindustan plays floor hockey... and the muslims of india one and all salute the pakistani flag as well whenever pakistan wins a match!!! this is communalism at its worst and yet the "secular" liberal rightists refuse to recognize even one iota that it is in fact the worldwide conspiracy of Jews... I mean Muslims... that is responsible for all the world's ills! you are all racist fascist leftists! and don't get me started on the bloody Syrian Christians - who are in fact in cahoots with the Iranian Christians - and their propagandistic campaign to rid Hindustan of black rhinoceri and the Coca Cola which is in reality the modern manifestation of Kaliki!

Oh, won't delete my comment, will you Amardeep? This is a prime example of Sikhofascism. Without thorough beard-checks at the Canadian border, Amrika will never be safe.

When people talk about pushing all the members of any religious group out of a country, they're in Hitler and Milosevic territory. Even if some members of that group are in fact violent fanatics (which no one here is denying), that is not the way to deal with it.

Amardeep,

That's exactly right and I totally agree with that sentiment. What I found interesting is that this is exactly the foundation of the ideology of Pakistan. Every leader of Pakistan from all the way from Jinnah to Musharraf as lived, breathed and acted upon this very ideology. The question I'd then have for you is whether you will agree to consider Jinnah as a righful occupant of the Hitler and Milosevic territory as well?

I must point out that none of the secular cabal in India has ever agreed to such a characterization. If anything, the left in India has never raised any voice against the communalisation of the subcontinent by Muslims over the last 100 years and the debunking of the Two-Nation Theory has been left to the Hindu right. The reason why many of us of the rightist persuasion ridicule the left is exactly the kind of duplicity that the left indulges in by not having the intellectual honesty to prove their commitment to secularism on issues of real significance such as this one.

A great war is inevitable. The sooner we realise this the better.

Yes, in fact the great war will be much larger than the puny WW2. The war against Islamo-fascism will be the biggest war man has ever fought.

Steve Sailer has done a series of articles lampooning the military abilities of American real and perceived enemies. Of course he ends up lampooning the Neo-Cons the most. Steve Sailer is a must read if you dont like the Neo-Cons (just ignore his analysis on immigration)

Here is some good analysis on the coming great war:

http://isteve.com/

Here is the full foreign policy logic that is bubbling under the hysteria:

1. All Muslims everywhere are Them.

Arabs who are shooting rockets at Israel, Iranians who supply the rockets, Pakistanis who try to blow up planes, Shi'ites like Ahmadinejad, Sunnis like bin Laden, all Muslims are "Them." (Christians who live in Arab countries like Lebanon are probably Them too, but it's best not to think too hard about this.)

2. America and Israel are Us.

3.They want to kill Us.

4. Our merciful strategy of trying to democratize Them by conquering Them just makes Them perversely want to kill Us more.

5. Trying to blow up Their weapons from the air doesn't seem to work, as We have seen in Our war in Lebanon, and just makes Them want to kill Us even more.

6. Even if We did destroy all Their rockets and cyclotrons, They will still try to kill Us with Their sports drink bottles, which will only become more deadly as technology progresses.

7. Unlike sane people like Stalin and Mao, They cannot be deterred by threats of military retribution because They are religious maniacs who want to die.

8. It is either Us or Them.

9. We must run any risk to be safe.

Therefore:

They must die.

All of Them.

We have 10,000 nuclear warheads.

That should be sufficient.

My motto is very simple for such problems:

Jo dar gaya samjho mar gaya [He who gets scared, is dead]

I always look to my mentor, Gabbar Singh for such things.

To put a little perspective on the warning by the embassy, I don't think it needs a great intelligence service to give out warnings like:

"...in the days leading up to the independence day celebrations there is a possibility of attacks blah blah blah...".

It is the same crap that Tom Ridge peddled for a couple of years stateside. Nothing specific. The Indian news channels are running with this worthless (IMHO) news item because it sounds impressive in light of the Heathrow business.

Everybody knows that the islamic fundamentalists always plan something for these times. The govt knows it, the people know it. The hope is that the govt has some info about this and can thwart the plans of the "aathankawadis".
The warning was meant for amreekan tourists who are usually blissfully unware of their surroundings. Just a CYA notice from the embassy.

Islamo-fascism and bullshit attempt to equate muslims with hitler, it will probably work. america and israel are the real fascists.

On descritics, Mayank has interviewed an Indian housewife, who is also a Muslim.

Guys, read that interview - she is one of the voices from where 150-190 million muslims live. She is quite well-spoken. Please read.

Kush. This is one of your interviewer's questions:

You are from Afghanistan? That is very exotic!

lol

Kush. This is one of your interviewer's questions:
You are from Afghanistan? That is very exotic!

Risible dude, I have nothing to do with the interview. I just read it on Desicritics, and thought a larger readership from Sepia Mutiny might be interested in the current context, and so linked it. The ladies are from middle-class, upper-middle class, and now India has a growing middle class.

I would not call Afghanistan "exotic" while interviewing in Delhi.

On Gujjubhai's comment

Alas, we remain locked in the conventional interpretations of history that serve the purpose of 'nation-states' and their official ideologies. I strongly recommend this book: Partition of India: Legend and Reality to be read by those interested. H M Seervai has narrated a dispassionate view on the partition that holds the Congress leadership and Mountbatten equally, if not more, were repsonsible for the partition of India.
And Seervai was no Muslim communalist and Islamic facist qualified for the ghetto desh!

Faizan,

Islamo-fascism and bullshit attempt to equate muslims with hitler

The fascism allegation applies only to terrorists whose actions and aspirations are in line with the concept of fascism, even if in this case the latter is based on a (mis)interpretation of Islam. It is not directed towards "all" Muslims. I think it's an accurate description.

Not everyone necessarily believes in collective guilt & collective responsibility.

Have you guys read "My Son the Fanatic", by Hanif Qureshi? Worth reading.

Islam needs reform, but given this wave of religious fervor and jihadism in the mid-east(partly our fault), it ain't happening anytime soon.

Mysonthefanatic -

"(partly our fault)"

speake for yourself, msf. not my fault.

anyways, imagine for a moment, that it was hindus who were blowing people up in bangladesh and kashmir, would the muslims confess having collective guilt?

anyways, imagine for a moment, that it was hindus who were blowing people up in bangladesh and kashmir, would the muslims confess having collective guilt?

Of course they would, just take note of how they utterly blamed themselves for not thinking about, perhaps maybe considering allowing the thought of denouncing some of the attacks that have happened world wide? Have a little sense of history.

Razarumi,

My point is that regardless of who is to blame for the partition of India, the left as never ever called into question the moral legitimacy of the ideology of Pakistan. Not a single secularist has ever come out and said that the whole notion of creating a nation based on religious affinity above all which resulted in the creation of a retrogressive Islamic nation on the subcontinent as opposed to a secular free democracy (yes, with its warts) is a step back in time and the most horrible communalist development in the history of India. While I have not read the book you mentioned, I would not be surprised if Congress was responsible for the partition - Nehru's lust for power was only matched by his spinelessness as a leader.

Regardless, my point it that only the Hindu right has ever questioned the legitimacy of the Two Nation Theory and no Indian "secularist" has ever had the intellectual honesty to do so. Secularists in India today are the likes of Samajwadi Party who allies with Muslim fundies and appoints the guy who proclaimed a 50 crore bounty on the head of Danish cartoonists as a state minister. My question to Amardeep is aimed at understanding his take on "secularism" and whether he would show objectivity by debunking a certain notion (which we can all agree upon as anti-secular) whether it was espoused by Kritic or Jinnah.

Gujjubhai, What exactly does two nations theory have to do with terrorism in Britain? I have no interest in blaming or exculpating anyone for the Partition in this thread. Pointless and irrelevant. All that matters is that Pakistan is not currently a very secular or free nation. It also has a government that is at best extremely remiss in cracking down on groups that sponsor terrorist activities both in the subcontinent and abroad.

My notion of secularism is simple : stay human. Which for me means, have equal respect for all human beings, and request equal respect from others. And above all, don't allow the heart to be corrupted by hatred.

My notion of secularism is simple : stay human. Which for me means, have equal respect for all human beings, and request equal respect from others. And above all, don't allow the heart to be corrupted by hatred.

But my grandmother told me all of this and she did not even know what secularism meant. Can we really make words mean whatever we wish? Besides, it is a matter of historical record that various religions (xtianity, judaism, jainism and others) co-existed side by side with hinduism 2000 years ago - long before the notion of secularism came into existence. Now we are blessed with the lofty concept of secularism and yet we have religious strife. I question the basis on which we so readily attribute religious tolerance to concepts such as secularism. There is no historical basis for such a claim. It seems to me to be mostly smoke and mirrors. Or just another intellectual fad that needs deeper scrutiny.

What exactly does two nations theory have to do with terrorism in Britain?

1. It created a haven for terrorists. a haven that was used in both the recent foiled plot and 7/7.

2. By not questioning the "ideology of pakistan", as Gujjubhai puts it, we have allowed "islamic aparthied" to become normative. perhaps this insularity partially explains why these nations have become breeding grounds for terrorists.

2. By not questioning the "ideology of pakistan", as Gujjubhai puts it, we have allowed "islamic aparthied" to become normative. perhaps this insularity partially explains why these nations have become breeding grounds for terrorists.

What explains why parts of India have become breeding grounds for violent and terrorising Hindu extremists?

Hmmmmm......

It created a haven for terrorists. a haven that was used in both the recent foiled plot and 7/7.

That's like saying my fridge created a haven for mold. Mold that was used to ruin my leftover aloo ghobi.

Come on, surely you must know it's more complicated. Why are you playing with straw men?

Can we really make words mean whatever we wish? Besides, it is a matter of historical record that various religions (xtianity, judaism, jainism and others) co-existed side by side with hinduism 2000 years ago - long before the notion of secularism came into existence. Now we are blessed with the lofty concept of secularism and yet we have religious strife. I question the basis on which we so readily attribute religious tolerance to concepts such as secularism. There is no historical basis for such a claim.

Ah, the Ashis Nandy line again. The answer is simple: ancient religious tolerance isn't applicable to today because they didn't have a concept of a nation-state or a democratic legal system with a codified constitution. Secularism in political theory is the transfer of "religious tolerance" to the modern political system. It's a necessary concept to protect individual rights in postcolonial India (or any modern nation-state). It doesn't really exist in Pakistan, and it's imperfectly applied in India (I've said many times that I thnk there should be a UCC of some kind; and I have no patience for censorship to protect "religious sentiments" -- see my recent Himal article).

The secularism that individuals practice ("stay human") is the personal version of that modern political idea. Hopefully, the two are parallel. If they aren't one aims to use democratic means to try and make them so.

Chico:

What explains why parts of India have become breeding grounds for violent and terrorising Hindu extremists?

Good question. At the end of the day, this form of extremism is simply part of the human condition. Individuals like this exist in every society, it is not unique to the islamic world. The question is what conditions allow them to rise into power?

The KKK and the Nazi's provide an interesting analogy. Like islamic faascists, they had some legitimate grievences, they had an exagerated sense of their own victimization, they could exploit a pre-existing jingoism/rascism/bigotry in their respective societies; and certain political/economic conditions (civil war for the kkk, the failing weimar republic for the nazis) allowed them to rise to various degrees of power.

the US and germany have had too look in the mirrror to ask how their socities could give rise to such insanity. It's time for the islamic world to do the same.

1. It created a haven for terrorists. a haven that was used in both the recent foiled plot and 7/7.

so, everything goes back to 1947? fifty-nine years of births, deaths, migrations, loves, losses, coups, elections, books, records, paintings, cricket matches, etc., were mere incidentals with no bearing on pre-ordained fate? and fifty-nine years of world history and events outside the subcontinent were of no incidence on developments within its ironbound walls?

for people who so furiously rail against "commies," you guys sure have a solid grasp on historical determinism.

The KKK and the Nazi's provide an interesting analogy. Like islamic faascists, they had some legitimate grievences, they had an exagerated sense of their own victimization, they could exploit a pre-existing jingoism/rascism/bigotry in their respective societies; and certain political/economic conditions (civil war for the kkk, the failing weimar republic for the nazis) allowed them to rise to various degrees of power.

The KKK had legitimate grievances? Wow, this is some history lesson I am getting. So what were those grievances? That blacks and descendants of slaves were free so they had to pick their own cotton? Wow.

I could go on in the same vein, but it's too easy.

the US and germany have had too look in the mirrror to ask how their socities could give rise to such insanity. It's time for the islamic world to do the same.

I agree that the Islamic world has to introspect. But I'm curious as to why you think that does not also apply to 'the Hindu world' in the small matter of the ongoing matter of the rampant extremism that persists in parts of India. After all, you could just as easily have used the maniacs and foaming-at-the-mouth fanatics of the saffronistas as a counter-example to the Islamists to illustrate your point about how "they had an exagerated sense of their own victimization, they could exploit a pre-existing jingoism/rascism/bigotry in their respective societies; and certain political/economic conditions....allowed them to rise to various degrees of power"

Because they pretty much fill the bill perfectly as a counterexample, and they breed in a secular and democratic 'non-two nation theory' country.

Problematic, isnt it? Maybe it is more complicated than huffing and puffing about what happened 60 years ago, although that may assuage our ideological prejudices and makes fearsome and satisfactory generalised Paki-bashing rhetoric.

for people who so furiously rail against "commies," you guys sure have a solid grasp on historical determinism.

Clean bowled, sucker punched, knocked out, on the canvas. Beautiful.

Come on, surely you must know it's more complicated. Why are you playing with straw men?

I was giving you a quick answer to your question about the relevence of the two nations theory. One of the major lines of argument being addressed by some on this thread is the enabling of islamic fascism by secularists; a line of argument that you appparently find to be irrelevent to the current debate.

but the fact that there is a huge pakistan connection for both recent british terrorism incidents makes the creation of pakistan in intersting place to start the conversation. Perhaps the "ideoolgy of pakistan" is at the heart of the matter. After all, political groups are not just merely amalagations of various grievences, but also have overarching ideologies that tie them together.

If gujjubhai is correct and it is "only the Hindu right has ever questioned the legitimacy of the Two Nation Theory" then this is indeed a sad state of affairs. We should be able to look at both specific grievences and the underlying social causes.

so, everything goes back to 1947? fifty-nine years of births, deaths, migrations, loves, losses, coups, elections, books, records, paintings, cricket matches, etc., were mere incidentals with no bearing on pre-ordained fate? and fifty-nine years of world history and events outside the subcontinent were of no incidence on developments within its ironbound walls?

for people who so furiously rail against "commies," you guys sure have a solid grasp on historical determinism.

Siddhartha:

Your fighting straw men. No one is talking about "determinism" or saying other events after 1947 are irrelevent. If somone wanted to go back to the creation of Israel and question it's legitimacy as a way of adressing the current crises, would you say they are being deterministic or ignoring subsequent events?

Manju

Remember what Siddhartha said?

for people who so furiously rail against "commies," you guys sure have a solid grasp on historical determinism.

I just said it again.

1. It created a haven for terrorists. a haven that was used in both the recent foiled plot and 7/7.

2. By not questioning the "ideology of pakistan", as Gujjubhai puts it, we have allowed "islamic aparthied" to become normative. perhaps this insularity partially explains why these nations have become breeding grounds for terrorists.

Correct. British Indian Muslims, on the whole, tend to be markedly less fanatical (and often fairly liberal) compared to British Pakistani Muslims.

Other reasons ?

1. "Arabification" of the interpretation of Islam amongst British South Asians in recent years, especially amongst the younger generation. Even in terms of dress, there has been a pronounced increase in the wearing of burkhas amongst women and close-cropped hair/skullcaps & beards amongst men compared to how things were when I was at university (I'm 33) -- at the time, in the vast majority of cases it was impossible to distinguish physically between Muslim, Hindu & Sikh guys & girls -- and certainly a massive increase compared to the 70s and 80s (as plenty of the Indian parents' generation here would confirm).

2. The rise in numbers of South Asians in general means that there is ample opportunity for segregation and insularity amongst those so inclined.

3. "Hijacking" of British Islamic religious leadership, in many cases, by clerics from the Middle-East.

4. Let's be honest, and I will apologise in advance for my blunt language here : Many older generation desis, of all backgrounds (not just Muslims), are basically misfits with regards to Western society and Western cultural norms. There are plenty of non-white immigrants in the United Kingdom, and the most conservative and stubborn people in this aspect are South Asians. Some cultural tug-of-war does exist between the older & younger generations amongst (for example) West African and Chinese immigrant populations in the UK, but nowhere near in the scale as it does amongst desis. So you have desi uncles and aunties who cannot fully integrate into Western society in terms of adjustment of values and expectations from their UK-born children, and in many aspects they will not be practical and flexible in this regard either. Which is unfortunate although not unexpected; the problems arise when this influence, especially their expectations of their UK-born children's values and behaviour, are similarly out of line with the norms of the country they reside in -- and if their influence and, frankly, demands are strong enough, this results in their kids becoming misfits too. Not necessarily within their insular social circles, but within the country (indeed, the Western hemisphere) as a whole; so their sons and daughters grow up feeling alienated from the wider society, their misfit parents will to some extent refuse to let their children become sufficiently "Westernised", resulting in the latter becoming misfits too.

Add the colonial grudge and the constant drip-drip anti-Western and anti-white propaganda from the older generation, including the moral disgust for the supposed lack of "morals" and values within the mainstream society of the country, and you have an explosive combination. Potentially literally.

I agree that the Islamic world has to introspect. But I'm curious as to why you think that does not also apply to 'the Hindu world' in the small matter of the ongoing matter of the rampant extremism that persists in parts of India. After all, you could just as easily have used the maniacs and foaming-at-the-mouth fanatics of the saffronistas as a counter-example to the Islamists to illustrate your point

Because they pretty much fill the bill perfectly as a counterexample, and they breed in a secular and democratic 'non-two nation theory' country.

It doesn't fit the bill. Hindu extemists have not achieved the level of power that muslim extemists have in pakistan, iran, afghanistan, saudi arabia, etc. These guys rule entire nations. As I said, such individuals exist in every society and will always be among us; bigotry is part of the human condition. The question is what conditions allow them to become powerful.

Having said that, I'm concened about hindu extremism too and I don't want to let them off the hook or see them gain more power. And if thsy are the only ones who address a legit issue (pakistan's ideology), this may enable them to rise to power. After all, the great philosopher Martin Heidegger once supported the nazis because he saw no other party addressing the most important issues facing germany.

I really think we are on the same page on this issue, which is the entire point...why the silence by some?

That's like saying my fridge created a haven for mold. Mold that was used to ruin my leftover aloo ghobi.

Well, so what's wrong with that? Your fridge is notorious for harboring mold. Such mold has been used to assault alooghobi worldwide. If your fridge - which just so HAPPENS to be a Sikh one - is harboring mold, I say it is Sikhofascism rearing its ugly head, yet again! And who suffers? Aloo. It's about time aloo stands up for aloo, if you ask me. Aloo has taken far too much of this Sikhofascistic moldism.

I really think we are on the same page on this issue, which is the entire point...why the silence by some?

You're imagining things. There is no silence.

What were the KKK's legitimate grievances by the way? Your historical examples and perspectives are.....unique.

Well, so what's wrong with that? Your fridge is notorious for harboring mold. Such mold has been used to assault alooghobi worldwide. If your fridge - which just so HAPPENS to be a Sikh one - is harboring mold, I say it is Sikhofascism rearing its ugly head, yet again! And who suffers? Aloo. It's about time aloo stands up for aloo, if you ask me. Aloo has taken far too much of this Sikhofascistic moldism.

Can you not bring Sikhs into this, also, it wasn't all that funny

ancient religious tolerance isn't applicable to today because they didn't have a concept of a nation-state or a democratic legal system with a codified constitution.

I’m not sure how this answers the question. In any case, the world does not seem to be operating on a nation-state basis. The US is fighting for democracy all over the world not just within its borders. We're probably moving out of the nation state phase towards a more culture-oriented one.

Secularism in political theory is the transfer of "religious tolerance" to the modern political system.

Quite apposite that a nonsense concept like secularism will need to be propped up by another nonsense concept such as “religious tolerance”. If Religions decide to get tolerant, they will cease to exist. The word “tolerance” in fact is a carefully chosen one since religions can do no better than to “tolerate”. They certainly cannot “respect” what they generally refer to as devil worshippers for instance.

Religions have never been tolerant and by definition cannot be. What secularism managed to do was to transfer the notion of “civic” tolerance to the political system. You can of course urge the practitioners of various religions to behave themselves. It is this state of affairs that passes for secularism, although people insist on referring to it as “religious” tolerance rather than “civic” tolerance.

If secularism could actually make a dent in religious tolerance it would indeed be a worthy concept and a “necessary” one as you say. But all the while we are paying lip service to secularism, the armies of God are on the march, funded by a secular flock most of the time. This is much more true of the US than of India in fact. The Will of God has never entered Indian politics. It plays a very important role in US politics. It amazes me that the US continues to be considered a secular nation. But what bothers me most is that concepts such as secularism actually manage to create a false illusion that all's well on the religious front, when actually it is not and never has been.

Chic/Sid

Manju

Remember what Siddhartha said?

for people who so furiously rail against "commies," you guys sure have a solid grasp on historical determinism.

I just said it again.

Marx argued that events like the emergence of capitalism was a historical necessity, in no ones control, and the result of class conflict.

I would argue the opposite, like max weber, that the emergence of capitalism was not a necessity, rather a result of certain values (the protestant work ethic, the enlightenment ideology) winning over mankind. values "determine" history. determine in quotes b/c we are talkin about free will.

this explains why I'm putting such a premium on islamic-fascist ideology as the fountainhead of terrror. My anti-communism remains intact.

If somone wanted to go back to the creation of Israel and question it's legitimacy as a way of adressing the current crises, would you say they are being deterministic or ignoring subsequent events?

i most certainly would.

What were the KKK's legitimate grievances by the way? Your historical examples and perspectives are.....unique.

the current klan is oppossed to affimative action and illegal immigration, both legit mainstream opinions. They also represent peoiple (white workin class) who would be the victims of these policies. At varous times they were anti-communist and isolationist.the klan, like hezbollah and hamas, provided a social network and charity towards those w/ legitimate economic grievances, and like hez and hamas, they transformed these grivences into a hatred of a minority.

or take the terrorist Tim Mcveigh to illustrate the same point. He was specifically outraged over Ruby Ridge and Waco. Now, it's relatively mainstream to believe the US govt may have behaved terribly in these instances and one would naturally think if we end such abuse, the subsequent terrorism would also end.

But when one looks at mcveighs relatonship to white supremacists, his love for the turner diaries, and his involvement in the survivalist movement, you see there is something deeper going on here. Call it simple bigotry or hatred, intolerance, maybe a totalitarian or fascist mindset, or whatever, but I would bet w/ an individual like this, if Waco didn't happen, something else would set him off.

This is all I am saying about the islamic extremists too.

i most certainly would.

You are consistent and interesting Siddhartha. But I think you're wrong to label all those who look at historical factors as practicing some form of dialectical materialism.

Chico -

For god's sake man/woman, get real.
When was the last time global security was threatened by Hindu fanatics?
When were dozens of Kashmiri Hindus arrested for plotting to bomb a dozen or so Saudi and Paksitani aircraft?
When was the last time Hindu nut cases attacked the Karachi stock exchange or the Pakistani [sic] Parliament?
This habit of dropping the Hindu extremism card whenever Islamic Fascism is discussed, is quite frankly, becoming an exercise in futility.

p.s. does the world really give a f%^&* about Hindu extremism ? and, no, that doesn't justfy the Hindutva brigade.

This habit of dropping the Hindu extremism card whenever Islamic Fascism is discussed, is quite frankly, becoming an exercise in futility.

Kind of like those who were obsessing over "black racism" during the civil rights movement.

Pointless and irrelevant. All that matters is that Pakistan is not currently a very secular or free nation. It also has a government that is at best extremely remiss in cracking down on groups that sponsor terrorist activities both in the subcontinent and abroad.

Surely you are being too kind, good sir. A few questions to ponder over...

1.Is the government really remiss or just acting according to the devil's bargain it may have struck with the Western governments, as outlined by bongdong in an earlier post? Is there any evidence at all that they sincerely want to curb terrorism as opposed to using it as a strategic weapon?

2.Contrary to your charaterization, the ideology of Pakistan has everything to do with global terrorism. After all, that has been the prevalent mythos of that country and has consistently manufactured the narrative of Hindupobia, Anti-semitism, Islamic martial superiority, a conscious Arabization of its history nad culture, invention of the Muslim-outsider conqueror myth, severance of its ties with Indic civilizational heritage and so on. Don't you think that the systematic brainwashing of the population for last 60 years, starting with dating the beginning of Pak history at the first Arab invation of Sind in 713 AD has anything to do with this whole mess that we find ourselves in?
3.The ideology of Pakistan is the original expression of Islamist supremacism that has ultimately de-humanised "theother" so much in the minds of Pakistanis that they are the easiest to recruit as foot soldiers of JIhad. Isn't it too much of a coincidence that almost every terrorist attack or plot has active Pakistani connections? How far back do you want me to go : Ramzi Yusef and the First WTC bombing to Mumbai train bombings and UK plot? BTW, this just in : Italians swooped down upon a bunch of Pakistanis and arrested them in another terrorist plot

I see zero introspection on part of Pakistanis in North America or in Pakistan to face these real questions. Instead, all we see is knee-jerk blaming of India, Hindus, US, Israel... everyone under the Sun. The irony is that they have been the biggest beneficiaries of US largesse and India's spinelessness in dealing with Pakistan, and there's aboslutely nothing that they can point to as an evidence of damage done directly to them by US, Israel or India. It's about time that someone stepped up and told them : dude, it's not Us..it is, indeed, You.

Gujjubhai

I see zero introspection on part of Pakistanis in North America or in Pakistan to face these real questions. Instead, all we see is knee-jerk blaming of India, Hindus, US, Israel... everyone under the Sun.

Great post. The last point I think is the most worrisome. The exagerated sense of victimization and a feeling of humiliation and resentment; the world has seen this so many times in so many forms.

Gujjubhai...kudos!!

Can you not bring Sikhs into this, also, it wasn't all that funny

I didn't "bring Sikhs into this" in any way, it was supposed to be ridiculous.

And it made melaugh, so that's really all that matters. Ha!

Gujjubhai, I do not disagree with the main thrust of your argument, but a couple of quibbles.

1)

they have been the biggest beneficiaries of US largesse

Are those who benefit the most from US largesse the same as those who harbor the most resentment and are susceptible to join terrorist groups? Surely, different classes and ethnicities in Pakistan make things more complex than that.

2) You denounced strengthening of Arabization and Islamist forces in Pakistan, but at the same time mentioned the lack of damages done to Pakistan as a reason for them not to be resentful toward US, India and Israel. Aren't you having it both ways? If they have indeed been brainwashed by Arabization and Islamist forces, they do not need damages done specifically to Pakistan. Real or perceived damages done by US and Israel in middle east or by India in Kashmir will qualify as legitimate, no?

This piece from the Cynical Nerd's blog is not be missed: I ROTFLMAO after reading it...

Someone please page SpoorKhan for a similar take :-).

Cynical News Network’s (CNN) exclusive reporting on Britain’s Home-grown Islamist Insurgency following the recent plot to blow up airliners:
CNN, Londonistan - August 10, 2006. UK’s white Protestant-dominated government led by the Christian nationalist Anthony Bliar often in the past blamed its Muslim minority for such acts of violence. But critics respond that the UK with its past record of human rights violation world-over during the colonial times and more recently in Northern Ireland, Falklands War, Afghanistan and Iraq hardly gives it any credibility. They say that such horrors spanning hundreds of years cannot be white-washed behind the facade of a so-called ‘liberal democratic’ form of government. Further, the General Secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), Dr. Mohammed Abdul Bari said that the latest plot could be the handiwork of nationalist groups such as the British National Party (BNP). He said since 9/11, the entire country has gone on a fervor of violent Christian nationalism reminding him of the medieval Crusades and has called for an immediate ban of the BNP.Analysts note that in the 90s, 1,00,000 victims mostly Muslims were injured and unjustly apprehended in the riots in Bradford and elsewhere due to the clashes with pro-White groups. This has caused a great alienation among law abiding Muslim citizens. But so far the UK government is yet to respond to MCB’s offer of dialogue and reconciliation to reduce the social discord between the Christian majority and the Muslim minority who are at the bottom of Britain’s social ladder. According to Ms. Shami Chakrabarty chief of the UK civil rights group Liberty, a solution to this problem is to let British Muslims live in peace under their own set of laws based on the Holy Shari’a in a designated area named ‘Islamic Emirates of Azad Britainistan’ supported by the ‘moderate’ pro-independence groups such as the Hizb-ul-Tahrir. This again is confirmed by the latest opinion polls among British Muslims. But the hard line government is insistent on applying secular laws based on the controversial Magna Carta which has been termed as anti-Islamic by human rights groups.

In other news, the government of Pakistan has categorically rejected any allegation of its territory being used for terrorist training in the latest London plot. The spokesperson of Pakistan’s foreign ministry Ms. Tasnim Aslam said that “Look, this is an internal problem of Britain. The British government should stop its aggression and human rights violation against Muslims in its own country and elsewhere (ed. Iraq, Afghanistan), instead of pointing fingers at us”. Mr. Hamid Gul former director of Pakistan’s Inter Service Intelligence out rightly refused the role of any Islamist groups such as Al-Queda in this plot, “I have seen the airline passenger data and I can’t see the name of a single Jew in them. I smell fish here and I think they have been forewarned about this incident. The international community should investigate the matter to find any links with Israel’s Mossad.” Dr. Shireen Mazari of the Pakistan Institute of Strategic Studies ( P.I.S.S. ) warned Britain against any “misadventures” and “reminded” Britain that Pakistan as a “sole nuclear weapons state among the Ummah countries” will give them “a fitting reply”. It is to be noted that Pakistan is a key ally in the war against terrorism and the suit-wearing, whisky sipping, moderately enlightened General Musharraf is the only hope in this fight against Islamist terrorism.

Meanwhile in Washington, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Boucher suggested that the continuation of confidence building measures between Britain and the separatist groups towards a just solution will go a long way in the prevention of such atrocities better. He further praised General Musharraf’s co-operation in the Global Offense Against Terror ( G.O.A.T.) and recommended to the Department of Defense the sale of nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and long range bombers to Pakistan to better fight against Al-Queda and Taliban extremists who radicalize these British Muslim youths. He refused to answer the question as to how such weapons will be useful since most of the arrests were made not in the mountainous terrain on the Afghan border but in large urban centers of Pakistan such as Karachi.

At CNN, we maintain high standards of editorial objectivity giving unbiased coverage to both sides of the story. However, we deplore the use of violence by the concerned parties and urge them to resolve all outstanding issues including the legitimate demand of a separate homeland for the British Isle’s Islamist separatists through a just and inclusive peace process. We also demand Her Majesty’s Government to take every measure to assuage the fears of it’s marginalized Muslim minority.