I'd have to say though, the ones who condemn various cultures and religious for oppression of women, are not the same people who perpetuate sentences as this one(on the pretext of "the other culture"). At least this has been my experience - those who demand action specifically against certain ethnicities vs. those who believe they shouldn't meddle in the culture of other people.

Noble savage indeed. Personally, I might cut him some slack, but I don't think the law should do so. After all, my first sexual experience was with a girl who'd conveniently pretend to be asleep. But then, we were middle income kids in small town s.india - not "flies to UK on a regular basis, 33 year old businessman."

i wonder if this particular judge has dealt with many rape/sexual assault cases and what his record on them is. is this particular ruling an unusual exception to his usual record or is it along the lines of several of his previous judgements (meaning being seen as going easy on offenders or issuing light sentences)?

Wow, you think that the world is improving, then you read things like this... Lesson to women worldwide - you're all you have to defend yourself, learn how to, because the judicial system might not care. This is so disturbing on so many levels... I wonder what the judge would do if his own daughter was raped?

Convicted Sex Attacker???....let me see..you go clubbing...you have alcohol...three Swedish women(blondes i presume) accompany you to your hotel room...and one of them is surprised to see you trying indulge in sex?...I don't get it....was she humiliated 'cuz, the guy chose another chick?....or the blonde after waking up, realized she didn't accompany a Master of "KamaSutra" ...but a confused..what to do kind of loser?....I don't know about others...but if a chick comes with me to my room from a bar/club..and that too, a 23 yr old one....I certainly won't have any doubt of what happens next or supposed to happen!!!...
In addition to convicting the "loser" businessman...I would fine the three "innocent" chicks for behaving irrationally...and make them stay away from any "brown" people.

thank you, suraj. when we do a Hall of Fame of Sepia Mutiny comments, yours will be guaranteed election on the first ballot.

Siddhartha...Thanks!but No thanks! very heartening indeed..but before we go too far too quickly, lets take One Step at a time...?..shall we?

Remind me that we live in the 21st century again.

It is unfortunate that having had their food, the women did not go home.”

Because *that* is the true desi way. Hello, khaa lo, chalo bhago.

three Swedish women(blondes i presume)

and that too, a 23 yr old one

Because we all know that if you're 23 and blonde you're only after one thing...

@ tamasha: Especially if you're Swedish.

Especially!

Obviously the woman deserved it - she ate the food! She owed him.

(end sarcasm)

I know almost nothing about British law. Can this decision be appealed? Is the victim taking any further action?

@suraj: before attempting to mount piece of ass:
1) make sure condom is ready
2) make sure that said piece of ass is conscious and willing

See, rules of the civilized world are not so complex after all, and Mr.Modi seems to know about rule 1, so I think it's fair to assume knowledge of rule 2 as well. Rules for what to do afterwards is a totally different story.

#Kingsley Joseph
2) make sure that said piece of ass is conscious and willing

Let me guess! The girls were "probably" expecting a Yoga class or Dandiya lessons at the hotel room!...hmmm....how monstrous of Mr.Modi to have come up with such twisted perversion to take advantage of three "innocent" 23 yr Swedish women...

I am noting the fact that you keep emphasising her nationality.

and her age! WTF?

Clearly, all females belonging to the age category 18-35 are of looser social mores, especially if they are Caucasian, and even more if they are Northern European. Hee.

Its obvious that Suraj is being sarcastic/funny though it doesnt come out as either.

It's interesting how easily the quest for mutual understanding gets perverted into the majority population being too scared to do anything about its largest minority population. Either you're heavily punished without regard for cultural differences, or you're given a free pass to act like a complete idiot. Where's the middle ground?

This reminds me of this party my housmates and I threw a few years ago. A handful of brown people at a mostly white party. One of them was this desi guy whose idea of asking my roommate to dance was to pull forcibly on her arm, and whine, "Come on!". The next morning we were talking about it during breakfast, when she drops this on me, "Well, I know he's from a different culture, so I wanted to take that into account." AAcckk! Anyway yes, enraging article all around.

Also are people like Suraj for real? I mean seriously. Did you screw your eyes shut for the past 20years, and only peek out for beer commercials and howard stern?

I love it when multicultuaralism clashes with feminism.

I love it when multicultuaralism clashes with feminism

Spot on analysis!

hmm..I don't see how "multiculturism has clashed w/ feminism". What is that even mean?

To add to my previous comment:

Is there something flawed with how minority groups go about seeking equality, or is this a severe misreading on the part of the majority? And regardless of where the fault lies, what can people do to find solutions that aren't so extreme?

Thats amazing. Does that mean being brown is a liscence to do whatever you want in England?!

im not even sure how i would go about getting 3 drunk 23 year old sweedish girls into a london hotel room. I guess this guy is slightly more "sophisticated" than me. I must b e a barbarian that can hardly comprehend human thought...

Sonia:

hmm..I don't see how "multiculturism has clashed w/ feminism". What is that even mean?

well, the notion that values cannot be known, that they are culturally relative--and thus one should not impose one's values on another culture--is usually all very good with feminists, until the values in question are feminist ones. This conundrum is much more evident with the issue of female genital mutilation in africa, which has proven to be very problematic for feminists.

Since I don't know the judge's philosophy, I could be wrong; but I think Siddhartha is likely to be proven wrong when he positions the judge as one of those people who "can trip over themselves in a rush to denigrate entire religions for not respecting women’s bodies and rights." An individual like this would more likely want to put the noble savage in jail (since when did white supremacists excuse blacks and browns for rape of white women). More likely, the judge has been emasculated by multiculturalism and is unable to pass judgment on someone from another culture. That the end result of multiculturalism may mirror traditional racism, I don't doubt; but it does represent a new patronizing form of racism.

represent a new patronizing form of racism

The one which implies often that the Islamic world is not meant to be democratic.

I just love it when a brown man rails against multiculturalism.

im not even sure how i would go about getting 3 drunk 23 year old sweedish girls into a london hotel room. I guess this guy is slightly more "sophisticated" than me. I must b e a barbarian that can hardly comprehend human thought...

The easiest way is to offer them drugs. If the first set of women turn you down, repeat until you find some that accept.

However, none of that justifies his behavior in the slightest, if anything, it makes it worse.

-- Jaded

On the other hand, Singapore's judicial system called a non-resident Indian who found himself under similar circumstances to be a "wolf in sheep's clothing". (Bear in mind though, that there was some support for him from the local desi crowd. )

(Disclaimer: vaguely associated with the television company in question, but I came in long after the case hit Main Street.)

It's not bad enough that the rich can get away with anything in India, now even in the UK they manage to get away with a fine!

I just love it when a brown man rails against multiculturalism

we brown men just love to rail against western philosophies.

This makes me wonder... Why is it that some guys have a hard time respecting women from a different background, but act like little pussycats when with their "own" people? Sickening!

There was a point in my life where all I knew about western women came from re-runs of very old Baywatch episodes, very delayed release of Basic Instinct and strictly for adults matinee shows, and very loose translations of Sidney Sheldon and Ian Fleming. There were some Sherlock Holmes and Hemingway translations available in the local library, but they did not know much about women either. A stare from my moom, on the other hand, could easily turn me into a pussycat. I am glad I was stuck in a very small town in India with no access to London clubs and Swedish women.

emasculated by multiculturalism

nuff said.

Seems like the judge thought Mr Modi was just another harmless socially inept foreigner not used to the nuances of Western dating rituals looking for love...

a guy who opposes femininism probably has a small wee-wee

Well, I think I'm past the FOB stage where I wine and dine hot blonde women in hopes of getting some action (which might just be a hug) and coming back to brag about it to (FOB) friends. I think if there is a woman coming back to my apartment, I pretty much know at that point if there's gonna be something happening or not. But believe me, it does take some tough experience to get to that point, unlike people who grow up here and take that for granted.

Not defending the dude, but somehow I can't let the 3 swedish girls get away blameless in my mind. What exactly were they doing in the guy's room and what were they thinking? At the very least they are guilty of a lack of common sense.

Maybe the three girls figured that, as they were three, and the 'gentleman' seemed so hapless and innocent, they might actually be safe in his room?

Maybe the three swedish girls went up to the hotel room to have sex with the guy. So what? All the dude had to do was wake up the girl before climbing on top of her. Whether the girls were swedish, innocent, or sexually free wheeling is not the point. They could have been looking forward to doing him but I really doubt they expected to find him on top when they were asleep or passed out after a night of drinking.

So to answer the question, "what were these girls thinking?" Well, umn, maybe that they'll just hang out or maybe they'll have sex or maybe they'll have an orgy. Who cares? The girl fell asleep. Wake her up so she can say yes or no. And, I sincerely doubt being Indian has anything to do with not understanding this simple point. Cultural relativism my foot!

Stupid judge. A guy doesn't try to have sex with a sleeping girl because he's Indian, for crying out loud. He does it because he's horny and probably really drunk and doesn't respect women anyway. Suprise! Those guys exist in EVERY ethnic group and culture. Must happen at least 3-4 times a year at my (mostly white and rich) university alone, according to the mandatory "security alerts" put up on all campus doors when there's a reported sexual assault. This is just a case of someone getting off with a wrist slap because daddy's got the cash, and the excuse given was just sad and pathetic.

And just because three blonde women go to your room doesn't mean they want to have sex with you. Maybe they're drunk and can't drive home - I've been there a few times or more. Maybe they're tired. Maybe one of them wants to make out and fall asleep without doing The Deed. Maybe one of them likes the guy, and her friends are pissed that the bitch is dead-set on going home with an ugly guy because she was their ride home, and now they have to go home with the troll too. It doesn't necessarily mean some kinky kama sutra foursome because the girls are blonde and the guy is brown. Assumptions get you nowhere, especially when alcohol enters the equation. You shouldn't just 'assume' that if a 23 year old blonde girl comes home with you, it means sex. It might mean "I need a toilet to puke in and a place to wait out the hangover" which, if you've been in that situation, is about the farthest thing from a romantic night of hot sex you can imagine.

And I agree with the person who said this situation would be very different if it was the judge's daughter who was raped.

manju said: well, the notion that values cannot be known, that they are culturally relative--and thus one should not impose one's values on another culture--is usually all very good with feminists, until the values in question are feminist ones.

There is no clashing of multiculturalism and feminism here. There is racism compounding misogyny: the judge has essentially said that rape, as a crime against a woman, is justified if the perpetrator is mentally inferior due to his race/ethnicity/nationality/skin color.

And shame on that ass for using the racism to his advantage in his defense.

Incidentally, the folks at GGM have already taken this multiculturalism vs. feminism/DECENCY thought and run with it. There's a time and place, and then there's common sense.

There is no clashing of multiculturalism and feminism here. There is racism compounding misogyny: the judge has essentially said that rape, as a crime against a woman, is justified if the perpetrator is mentally inferior due to his race/ethnicity/nationality/skin color.

Maybe in some way he does think we are "mentally inferior," and in need of some special protection; but I think this differs from traditional forms of racism, w/ the exception "noblesse oblige."

In fact, I think the judge makes an appearence in a Daniel Pipes piece; where pipes contrasts the lenient sentances (no jail time) weilded out to a muslim anti-semite who threatening to kill, rape, and blow up jews with the 15 years sentance the judge in question weilded out to five white supremacists for producing and distributing race-hate material:

Old Bailey Judge Jeremy Roberts told the five men that they had been trying to stir up race hate and encourage race crime. "No one is being sentenced for their political beliefs - this is a free country," he told them. He said that the RVF literature was designed to "encourage readers to resort to violence against people with non-white backgrounds".

In this context, he doesn't sound like much of a racist.

Can't a guy get some loving for paying for a hotel, food, drinks, and club cover?

I agree with Gandhi. Look, if, by the 3 girls who have been said to be attractive, by their own admission, Modi was shy and geeky, lets face it,

WHAT ARE 3 HOT CHICKS DOING WITH A GEEKY INDIAN GUY?

oh yeah. HE'S A MILLIONAIRE.

Gold digging chicks, getting drunk with a guy like that, staying in his hotel room, I think the judge was right on. Maybe they didn't DESERVE it, but they really didn't proactively avoid that kind of situation -- they should know better.

This judgement sounds like the judge was paid off.....

Am susprised more people didnt come to this conclusion. It happens even in the West......(payoffs for judgements...)

I think this may have been mentioned on SM some time ago, but a Pakistani rapist in Australia also claimed "the right to rape promiscuous women and that they had no right to say no", based on alleged cultural factors.

Having met the guy he is certainly no geek and unaccustomed to the ways of the West-whatever that may be. He bought the best defence he could ( he could afford it afterall) and yes maybe the judge was bought off. No matter who these girls were and what position they put themselves in by going back to his hotel room drunk the guy broke the law. If they were up for having sex then there must be clear assent. There was none in this case. They all fell asleep and yes maybe that is not the right thing to do in a guy's hotel room but that does not condone rape. Mr Modi was lucid enough to remember to get a condom ready. How bloody unused to sex must the guy be! Of course he has been there before. I have seen him "work his stuff" in Tramp. The guy is no shy retiring virgin. He got three drunk girls back in his room and thought he would give it a shot. He should have been punished for attempted rape as that is exactly what he was doing. Please..... the defence says that finding women asleep in your room etc after a night of partying is not something he is used to in India. They need to do a little tour of the "jet set" crowd in Delhi or Bombay from which Modi hails. Somebody has been paid off and we would be very naive to think that UK judges are above such modes of bribery.

I know the guy too - he's totally familiar with western ways, has partied in the Western world like there's no tomorrow for the last ten years. He's quite the 'gentleman' encouraging all the girls he's with to drink excessively - he pours out seriously lethal shots. It seems like his strategy is getting girls TOTALLY drunk so he can take advantage. It's highly likely he's tried to do this before but this time didn't get away with it.

bollocks! Sorry about the foul langugae but this judge is an idiot...If the desi boy assaulted them , it was intentional. Can such a defense work for Prem Chopra's early characters? Doh! Indian know what rape is!!!

If you guys who say know him say the man is versed in Western ways, and he is not geeky, but some sort of flirt, then very well the intent could have been wrong. But I always find it VERY suspicious whenever there is an incident of HOT GIRL + RICH GUY = Girl calls rape. We've all seen it before, and the fact that the guy is Indian has nothing to do with it, I almost ALWAYS am suspect of the girls intentions. If you recall the story of the Sultan of Brunei, he brought over many U.S. models to his palace. He lavished them with gifts, and some claimed he confiscated their passports, did not let them leave the kingdom, and were raped. So everything is fine and dandy, you meet a rich guy, he gets you gifts, and you think there is nothing suspicious with that? You don't think he will try moves on you? The Sultan was later sued, and I'm guess he probably settled. So women like that get molested, and then pay off? He may have known better, but the fact is the women knew better too. I'm not sure this is what happened, but the chances are fairly high.

I just read the article again. Towards the end, it is mentioned that at the three girl knew this guy, had met through friends, and had gone out together in the past. Two of the three girls had previously slept in his hotel room after a heavy night of drinking with no sexual activities taking place. So, this guy was not a stranger to them and probably someone they trusted to some extent.

Suraj, if you really think there is nothing wrong with your initial statement (#5), you are, in my opinion, a disgusting example of a human being. I'm going to assume you were being sarcastic, but it just came out wrong.

Um....the point here is that Modi attempted to have sex with the girl without consent. Get it? It doesn't matter if those girls were blonde, or Swedish, or 23, or naked. The point is that there is no reason to justify sex with a sleeping or unconcious person if one party is perfectly lucid enough to take responsibility for his actions(and Mr. Modi certainly seemed so - in any case he remember to put on a condom).

The fact that this case went to court must highlight how serious it was - because you can bet your bottom dollar that modi would have tried to settle out of court and pay them off to avoid this hitting the papers. If these girls were gold-diggers I'm sure they would have settled...but no, they actually wanted to see him behind bars. He pleaded guilty so it wasn't even a question of him trying to prove his innocence.

Also, some of you folks need to calm down. I'm sure the judge wasn't being intentionally racist - it's just cultural relativism taken to a more extreme level. Must we believe that everybody is out to discriminate us?

I'm sure the judge wasn't being intentionally racist - it's just cultural relativism taken to a more extreme level.

But one doesn't have to be intentional about an action for it to be racist. The judge didn't have to go through a linear racist thought process ("Hmm. Well, brown people are savages. Hmm. Well, this guy is brown. Hmm. Well, he probably just couldn't reason any better. Hmm. No jail!") to make his decision racist.

OK, so he's racist. Now what?

OK, so he's racist. Now what?

Insensivity Training.

it's just cultural relativism taken to a more extreme level.

The Brits are certainly taking that "cultural relativism" to an all time high this week...

Passport photograph of girl's bare shoulders rejected 'as it may offend'

A five-year-old girl's passport application was rejected because her photograph showed her bare shoulders.

Hannah Edwards's mother, Jane, was told that the exposed skin might be considered offensive in a Muslim country.
Link

Posts 46 and 47

I don't know what your experiences are, and frankly don't want to, but buying food, drink and gifts for a woman are standard western courtship rituals and do not necessarily imply sex. It's about courtship, not bargaining or paying for services. If you want to pay for sex in a straightforward contractual way, hire an escort for god's sake.

Post 47 - it's one thing to 'try moves' on a girl who accepts your gifts, another to try to force yourself on her. Violation of the body is unacceptable under any circumstances, whether the guy's rich and has bought the girl gifts or not. I'm assuming you're a guy. Suppose you got this great job from this CEO who promised you a swift advancement up the ranks, gave you great perks, took you under his wing - if he f?$#@ed you up the ass one day in the boardroom, would you say to yourself 'oh well, I guess I should have known better - I mean he gave me this great job and all those perks'? Give me a break. You'd punch his face; a girl has to file a lawsuit.

I'm sure the judge wasn't being intentionally racist - it's just cultural relativism taken to a more extreme level. Must we believe that everybody is out to discriminate us?

No, but saying that he was 'just trying to be nice' with a ridiculously inadequate knowledge of how 1 in 6 people in the world live is pathetic and there is absolutely no excuse for it. It's one thing to be multicultural, it's another to be neo-colonial.

And yes, the majority of English judges especially those in the House of Lords are racist and there is widespread discrimination in the British legal system. Lord Diplock, one of the pre-eminent judges in the House of Lords, remarked a few years ago that it was getting hard to see 'a real English person' on juries.

"The perpetrator, 33-year-old Prashant Modi, travels frequently to Britain for his father’s oil business, the court learned, which no doubt explains his lack of sophistication. "

What! Traveling frequently to Britain explains his lack of sophistication? Someone needs an English lesson.

Insensivity Training.

Yep. And then? And then? And then?

What are you accomplishing by pointing fingers and shrilly decrying "racist!"? Are you going to pay for his insensitivity training?

People are all equally dumb - that's a fact, whether they're white, black, brown, yellow or pink with purple spots.

tashie: see post above.

Meena:

What are you accomplishing by pointing fingers and shrilly decrying "racist!"? Are you going to pay for his insensitivity training?

You don't get it. Insensitivity Training is the opposite of Sensitivity Training.

Has it occurred to anyone that the girls maybe trying to frame Prashant for their own financial benefit since they realized he is from a wealthy family??

I know of this guy as well. He is very aware of western way of living! He knew the girls from before and they had friends in common and had been there before without anything happening so of course they weren't scared. Also as Natasha says "If these girls were gold-diggers I'm sure they would have settled..." They were offered money but declined and wanted to take it to court. Very sad that this kind of sentence can occur in england 2006...

You don't get it. Insensitivity Training is the opposite of Sensitivity Training.

enlighten me. I have truly no idea what you are talking about.

if you go back and read by comments, i attributed the judges actions to multiculturalism, ie oversensitivity and nonjudgementalism toward other cultures as opposed to misogyny or traditional racism. So maybe he took one too many sensitivity training classes.

We can reverse the situation by offering Insensitivity training. reductio ad absurdum. a joke

And just because three blonde women go to your room doesn't mean they want to have sex with you. Maybe they're drunk and can't drive home

Andrea
I agree with that. White girls are generally misunderstood and many times misportrayed in south Asian popular culture (such as in hindi movies till lately they were either shown as beach babes or hanging around in a bar smoking joint).
But since this case is so unclear, I would give the brown dude a break coz many times if not most, brown dudes get "what the fuck is he doing with the blonde" look while all we are doing is having coffee together.

And just because three blonde women go to your room doesn't mean they want to have sex with you

I don't know. Everytime three blonde women have gone to my room they wanted to have sex. Maybe razib has more datapoints.

I agree with that. White girls are generally misunderstood and many times misportrayed in south Asian popular culture (such as in hindi movies till lately they were either shown as beach babes or hanging around in a bar smoking joint).

Maybe so, but I'd never use that as an excuse to exonerate him! And in all honesty, from the comments I've read above, this goes beyond Asian culture and Western culture. He seems to follow very well 'rich kid' culture. I know I'm generalizing, but the wealthy kids and people in their 20s from ALL countries that I've encountered seem to party pretty hard and live a more "Western" lifestyle (as portrayed in non-Western media) than most American kids will ever get a glimpse of. At my school, It's not the American kids on scholarship or the Indian grad students who go out and get drunk and stupid weekend after weekend; it's the Florida trust fund baby partying WITH the kid from Delhi whose dad paid his entire four years of tuition in one lump sum. They share more in common than trust fund baby and scholarship student, or Indian grad student sharing a crappy apartment with three other guys and Delhi party king, do.

In short: the argument about "temptations of the west" is still macaca guana, and it's just another case of a rich kid who doesn't have to suffer the consequences of his actions.

Make that "macaca guano" - I'm still not familiar with all the correct terms for excrement.

50 · LDN said

Having met the guy he is certainly no geek and unaccustomed to the ways of the West-whatever that may be. He bought the best defence he could ( he could afford it afterall) and yes maybe the judge was bought off. No matter who these girls were and what position they put themselves in by going back to his hotel room drunk the guy broke the law. If they were up for having sex then there must be clear assent. There was none in this case. They all fell asleep and yes maybe that is not the right thing to do in a guy's hotel room but that does not condone rape. Mr Modi was lucid enough to remember to get a condom ready. How bloody unused to sex must the guy be! Of course he has been there before. I have seen him "work his stuff" in Tramp. The guy is no shy retiring virgin. He got three drunk girls back in his room and thought he would give it a shot. He should have been punished for attempted rape as that is exactly what he was doing. Please..... the defence says that finding women asleep in your room etc after a night of partying is not something he is used to in India. They need to do a little tour of the "jet set" crowd in Delhi or Bombay from which Modi hails. Somebody has been paid off and we would be very naive to think that UK judges are above such modes of bribery.

Completely agree with you, have also seen him at Tramp, and i also know one of the girls. I must clarify this point, the three girls wereactually friends with Prashant, one of them actually dated his cousin, they'd all known each other for over two years, so this was not just a random one time event. It's very east to judge when the full story is not told. and the judges were most definately bought off. No one, i repeat no one, is actually stupid enough to believe that a man who is so 'unsophisticated' is a member of Tramp - probably the most exclusive members only night club in London, attended Harvard Business School, and was not just staying at the Metropolitan Hotel, actually owns an Apartment there - as well as being the MD of a London Stock Exchange listed company? Prashant's circles in Delhi are extremely hedonistic, and this whole outcome was a complete and utter shambles.