She lives with her husband and two daughters in Fairfax county, Connecticut

Amardeep, if you had wanted to do a thorough job on this post you would have included pictures or the Friendster profiles of said daughters (assuming they are of marriageable age of course).

Hey, I did Google the daughter's name to see if anything came up (nothing). But anyway, they're probably too young for you, dude! ;-)

or preferring mango lassi to martinis

I gave Ganesha to a few people around my office, they still have it displayed.
Of course, the non-brown folks needed explaining on why a Jain Man worships Ganeshas....

"Secondly, you don’t have to sell yourself out and tell everyone your name is “Bob” if it’s really Balwinder"

Unless you're in the entertainment/film industry.

"Nooyi attends PepsiCo board meetings in a sari; for she believes the corporate world appreciates people who are genuine"

This is not as noble sounding as it seems. While this woman gets her due props from me, I think there's a chance she can be paraded around as the ethnic showpiece, with pepsi claiming "oh look, see how diverse we are."

This is not as noble sounding as it seems. While this woman gets her due props from me, I think there's a chance she can be paraded around as the ethnic showpiece, with pepsi claiming "oh look, see how diverse we are."

She's running the company though, its not like she Vice President of Cultural Relations. Props to her, originally from Chennai!

Very nice story. One point I would like to make about her background is the south indian cultural aspect (i am a northie myself). In my experience, 80% high-powered indian women in the US that I have met are from South India, Maharashtra and Bengal. But predominantly southern in cultural origin (maybe 50%+ of professional women with serious careers).

Anyone else with a similar experience?

One does not get to become the CEO of a company to be its ethnic showpiece.

Regards,

Congratulations to Indra... I only hope she rectifies the pesticide allegations against Pepsi and not give the Pepsi detractors the finger... ;-)

The original desi power-mom.

And she’s not afraid of letting people know she is a practicing Hindu.

In my old life in M&A, we sat across the table from her a few times when they considered buying Snapple from our client. Extremely smart, poised and candid person - and I assure you she has no golf game. Couldn't have happened to a better person.

Congrats Indra - now how about that Indian Pepsi-cide issue? :-)

she's not a sellout, and sticks to her roots..

shabash nooyi..shabash :)

But what does Senator Allen have to say about a macaca woman taking over this headline American company? Someone please ask him at a press conference. Maybe he'll say Pepsi should be renamed Macaca-Cola.

Great post, amardeep. "acculturate without assimilating" That's a great line. Can I borrow it?

Macaca Cola, that's funny.

Slogan: My Kaka drinks Macaca-Cola

While I disagreed with some of her Columbia - there is no denying that she is kicking serious butt in the corporate world. She saw the future was moving away from fizzy sodas and into health drinks and juices, and now Pepsi has a greater share value than Coca Cola.

Now - how about another Gurinder Chadha film on how Indian culture holds women back?

This is not as noble sounding as it seems. While this woman gets her due props from me, I think there's a chance she can be paraded around as the ethnic showpiece, with pepsi claiming "oh look, see how diverse we are."

*roll eyes* the horrors! a *chance* that you'll be offended.

"One can acculturate without assimilating; it is possible to get ahead in life without selling yourself out to the image people expect you to inhabit. There’s no reason to be defensive about being a vegetarian, or preferring mango lassi to martinis, or cricket to baseball… and on and on."

great points. why should the fact that she decides to wear a sari (of her own free will, i assume, without being forced to do so by pepsi) to a board meeting arouse suspicions of exoticization/paraded as an ethnic showpiece etc? if a western female employee of an indian company or the western head of an indian company wears western office wear to a board meeting would we think of them as exoticizing their culture or being paraded as an ethnic showpiece? this idea that the sari or any other piece of clothing, western or otherwise, should be confined only to certain cultural (functions)/geographic boundaries and being seen as "abnormal" outside those settings is strange. it reminds me of the lady who once said in a very patronizing tone that while the sari was glamorous, it was best left in india. meanwhile it's perfectly ok for western wear to swamp the world and be seen as the "normal" standard.

One can acculturate without assimilating; it is possible to get ahead in life without selling yourself out to the image people expect you to inhabit.

I admire Indra Nooyi not only for being able to balance an incredibly demanding, time-consuming, and high profile career, but also for having the guts to shatter notions of propriety when she makes statements like she did in her Columbia speech. Among all the roles she plays, she takes the time out to show to the world, literally, that she is a fast thinker/talker, on all fronts, including politics--which I find is inspiring and rarely ever found in female Indian role models.

Now - how about another Gurinder Chadha film on how Indian culture holds women back?

LOL. Dear God, No.

Hats off to Indra for this fantastic rise to the top. Attending her second career interview and all the Pepsi Board meetings in Saree is like 'wow' - how could she pull that off. This is an eye opener for many. I think Pepsi's corporate setup and its diversity need to be applauded. Hakoona makaka.

Another high flying FOBini in the corporate world is Padmasree Warrior - Chief Technical Officer, Motorola.

I met her once, she was wearing a saree. She has a full family with a kid.

"acculturate without assimilating" That's a great line. Can I borrow it?

Pagla, glad you liked the phrase, though I'm sure I probably stole it from something or other I read on immigration back in grad school or whatever.

She saw the future was moving away from fizzy sodas and into health drinks and juices, and now Pepsi has a greater share value than Coca Cola.

Yes, her getting promoted to CEO is clearly a reward for the two big events she was involved with -- the spinning off of Pepsi's fast food operations, and the acquisition of Tropicana, Gatorade, etc. It's by no means an "affirmative action" move.

One question I have, though, is why the current CEO is stepping down.

Another high flying FOBini in the corporate world is Padmasree Warrior

What a beautiful name.

It's by no means an "affirmative action" move.

my understanding is that AA hires usually get shunted off into PR & HR, and never have any chance of making it to CEO. they exist to beef up the numbers for audits is all.

Amardeep:
Reinemund retired and she took over.

where did this talk of an affirmative action move come from - what's to discuss? Nooyi's track record there has been VERY public for over a decade.

ROI got her where she is - when we negotiated with her, she hit hard, asked tough questions, held her ground and stung, but with a smile like your favorite auntie.

PS - affirmative action is like an ivy-league degree w/ high GPA, etc. it may get you in the door, but the rest is up to you to fend for and rise up the ladder (with the exception of many bloated, inertia-laden companies).

so can we officially call the glass ceiling a myth?
Remember, affirmitive action and quotas are not expected to hurt the brightest or help the dumbest; they affect the middle class.
go indira, yet another sugar momma!

where did this talk of an affirmative action move come from

affirmative action puts a stigma over the achievement. everything has costs.

Kudos to Indra (nee Krishmamurti) Nooyi and her family. What a pleasure to see accomplished women of Indian origin scale corporate peaks and reach the top! And remaining authentic to her Tamil Brahmin roots that she was exposed to and chose to retain all the way through. Carnatic music, temple visits, veggie-dom, puja rooms, etc.

Padmasree Warrior, an IIT-D and Cornell graduate (Chem E), is another to watch in the years ahead. On Corning's board of directors, ...

AFter twenty+ years in Silicon Valley, how can I not mention the most remarkable woman of Indian origin in high tech? Folks, ahve you heard of Jayshree Ullal at Cisco? You can exchange Indra's script for Jayshree's and it will read similar page for page, word for word, except that she is very understated and not as well known outside the world of computer networking where she is a goddess. Authentic, an absence of pretensions, a world-class manager and operations executive, a loving mother of two talented daughters, the friend to have around you as a bunker companion, funny, personal, empathetic...

What's common across all three: remarkable parents that encouraged them a lot, supportive families, high standards applied within their families and in their interactions with the outside world. All of them are of South Indian origin and I'm sure there are plenty others, including Naina Lal Kidwai, from the rest of India to keep up the flame for Indian women professionals.

Fifteen years ago there were very few managers or executives of Indian origin in the business world. Today, we have big name role models including Arun Sarin, Indra Nooyi, Padmasree, Jayshree, Naina Lal, ...

>All of them are of South Indian origin

I meant to say: All three are of South Indian origin--I wonder what explains the high presence of South Indian women in the tech world--and I'm sure...

My biz prof told us Pepsi's response to these allegations was that the pesticide laws haven't take affect yet, and all processed foods in India contain pesticides, so why should Pepsi change their mfr. processs. But I've been trying to find a website or news article where Pepsi said that, and I haven't found any...I'll ask him about it at class tonight (6-9pm yuck)

3 ain't statistically sigificant.

to be specific, my impression aligns with pragma's. but i need more data.

One can acculturate without assimilating

This was a great point. The lesson is never to surrender your soul, your identity to those who hold the power and would like you to change, in this case the celto-WASP american. Being an american citizen is not an excercise in emulation of the WASP, least not in my book.

"why should the fact that she decides to wear a sari (of her own free will, i assume, without being forced to do so by pepsi) to a board meeting arouse suspicions of exoticization/paraded as an ethnic showpiece etc?"

Never said she was forced, but its still an ethnic/nonstandard style of dress. There's a definite potential there, but as she's an exec tucked away in some board room, it's probably not as much as I had originally guessed. But it's surely done in the case of Night Shyamalan for example, his monstrous last name is kept on as an ethnic eye-catcher, production companies would never let it fly unless they could play off the "oh wow scary movie, by that guy with the cool sounding name" sentiment.

"it reminds me of the lady who once said in a very patronizing tone that while the sari was glamorous, it was best left in india. meanwhile it's perfectly ok for western wear to swamp the world and be seen as the "normal" standard.

I never said it was OK, just saying that's how it is.

Apu_is_innocent

In my old life in M&A, we sat across the table from her a few times when they considered buying Snapple from our client

TH Lee? Just curious.

I had a desi friend at my old firm who use to wear saris to client meetings too, I thought it was great and she looked gorgeous.

There's a definite potential there

so? just because god could exist doesn't mean he does exist. the possibility of evil does not imply that the reality of evil.

there's a certain type of race fixator who will complain that a corporation (fill-in-the-blank) is 'lily white' when white, and 'tokenizing and exoticizing' when it has some color. no win situation in the face of the hand-wringer's compulsion.

"I never said it was OK, just saying that's how it is."

i agree.

but what do you mean by his monstrous last name is kept on? why wouldn't it be up there for all to see? that's his real name and he's the director. or are you saying that he wouldn't get any movies made if his name wasn't "monstrous" and that the sole reason he gets to make movies is because of his unusual-to-americans last name?

In #7, Al Beruni asked: ...80% high-powered indian women in the US that I have met are from South India, Maharashtra and Bengal. But predominantly southern in cultural origin (maybe 50%+ of professional women with serious careers).

My observation based on twenty-five years in tech leads me to agree. High tech (software, systems, networking...), medicine, finance, academia seem to be areas with a high presence of South Indian professional women. In my opinion, here's why. Please excuse me if the following seem too sweeping as I can't avoid generalisms in discussing this :-)
a) those industries place a premium on knowledge, problem solving, results. Education gives someone an edge in all three and South Indians generally place a high(er) premium on education.
b) Role models. The girls just did what they saw their uncles, brothers, cousins do: become proficient in high tech, start/co-found a company, rise up the ranks, etc. And their parents encouraged the girls because the males in the family succeeded/did well and the professions were "safe, respectable, ..."
c) Lack of alternatives. Starting a business in India historically required a lot of capital; succeeding in Indian business meant you had to be part of the family that owned the business (except in say the Tatas and other firms). Lacking that the South Indians forged elsewhere. What's noteworthy is the IT industry didn't require a lot of capital to start a company. That enabled Murty and his team to start InfoSys and there are innumerable others that followed suit.
d) This is a critical one. Modify all of the above to mean "South Indian Brahmin" for it's the (Tamil/Palakkad/etc.) Brahmin women that have a large presence in the mentioned industries. Other communities tend to direct their professionally-oriented women toward family businesses so we don't get to see them elsewhere. Contrarily, Brahmins have to get out and work, e.g., in the service industries. They had to be flexible and command better interpersonal skills to get along with a diverse crowd at work. They found critical mass within their own families, extended families, and social circle to reinforce and support their success. All while not ignoring Carnatic music, idly/sambhar, visits to temples, Suprabhatams in the morning :-)

My two cents...

She views PepsiCo as an extended family and everybody at the company is there to help in every way possible. Sometime ago, when Indra was traveling, her daughter would call the office to ask for permission to play Nintendo. The receptionist would know the routine and ask: “Have you finished your homework? Have you had your snack? OK, you can play Nintendo for half an hour”. She then left a voice message for Indra saying “I gave Tara permission to play Nintendo”.

I think the whole story is really great and I admire her achievements, but (yes, there had to be a but), the above excerpt just doesn't gel with me. I know it takes a village, or an extended family, or a flock of nannies, but not the employees of a major corporation, to raise a child.

And please, before anyone jumps on me, I'm not implying that she's a bad Mom or anything like that, she sounds like a terrific woman with her head and heart both in thr right place, so I'm guessing she's a good Mom too. It's just that it rubs me the wrong way, like someone higher up than you at work asking you to get their dry cleaning.

HMF, I agree with Whose God is it anyways -- what you're saying is a little paranoid.

If Bobby Jindal ever becomes president (unlikely, I know -- bear with me), by the same logic you could say a) he only got there because he calls himself "Bobby" instead of "Piyush," and b) "they" let him keep his last name, "Jindal" because it sounds "exotic."

The simple truth is that most people who succeed at the level of a Shyamalan or a Nooyi do so because they are immensely talented, driven people. There is no conspiracy either helping them or hurting them. Some people are a-holes about Indian names (Macaca, anyone?), but the goal is to rise above it.

Insipiting stuff. She is a woman of substance, like Femina Miss India :)

Wantok - TH Lee? Not sure I understand your question. TH Lee was one of the people looking at buying Snapple, along with Pepsi, but Cadbury bought it from us in the end.

To Indra Nooyi's credit, she recognized the limitations of Pepsi's distribution, wrt a specialty distribution play like Snapple. Quaker Oats famously f--cked up their purchase of Snapple, but she ain't one to go out like that.

The woman is a real visionary in packaged goods/consumer and really knows the numbers and distribution realities. I am not worthy...

PS - Pragma, add Radha Basu to your list of top shelf indian women execs (plus the desi MD who runs the cancer drug co. - name?).

PPS - razib, you are usually on it, but per #38, what on earth are you talking about sometimes? please write more clearly/completely - or optimize your blogosphere commitments for quality over quantity.

razib, you are usually on it, but per #38, what on earth are you talking about sometimes? please write more clearly/completely - or optimize your blogosphere commitments for quality over quantity.

there is a certain element which will always try to spin a "brown person oppressed by the man" angle. the facts don't really matter, oppression is a given. in this case, the oppression is potential, but whatever.

I just wanted to say thanks for the great post! I really enjoyed reading about Indra's journey to the top. I have to admit that I didn't know much about her before. But now I definitely have a better idea of who she is and why she's an important role model.

"But what do you mean by his monstrous last name is kept on? why wouldn't it be up there for all to see? that's his real name and he's the director. or are you saying that he wouldn't get any movies made if his name wasn't "monstrous" and that the sole reason he gets to make movies is because of his unusual-to-americans last name?"

No, I'm not claiming exclusivity. I'm saying his name is used by disney, warner, et al as a selling point for his films, it's kind of like cream on the top, so to speak. It's a weird phenomenon actually, I think it sort inverts at some point.

If you're a small fish in whatever business (but I think it's heightened in the film/media biz, where image & marketing is key) then youre expected to shunt your culture, tow the line, assimilate completely... but once you reach a milestone point, or a point of any kind of power in the public eye, then the powers that be will milk the cultural background if it sells. For example, they'd never do it for African culture because, the powers that be were responsible for destroying, at least a part of it.

So could pepsi sell more cans by having a high ranking indian in a sari? Probably not, well perhaps to India, but they can definitely boast to the business community about how diverse and committed they are to being "color blind"

Pragma:

There are too many stereotypes in your Post 40. Stereotypes are OK in jokes (e.g. the first paragraph of hairy_d's comment), but for serious analysis, you need to have figures, e.g., how many women are you considering, what communities they belong to and so on.

the problem with brown stereotypes is that they derived from personal experience, and that experience is often highly biased by our origins. so yeah, you number some numbers, confidence intervals, chisquare tests, etc.

Sure, Radha Basu fits in as does Paulette Altmaier (IIT-M, Syracuse grad) and several others I know over the years.

PG Wodehouse: my comments were not the result of a sociological study. I don't have the numbers and breakdown by community nor have I defended this in front of an academic committee to have any basis other than, as Razib said, an "impression". That's the right word: impression. Perhaps there's a PhD somewhere in there for someone else.

I hear ya razib. There is always a challenge for people of color in big corporations, but as Nooyi, and countless others can attest to, you do not let that keep you down. It is incumbent on the minoirty/oppressed (or perceived oppressed) to punch a little harder, work a little smarter, etc.

During my early years on Wall Street, I was automatically dubbed the "numbers/modeling" jock by the clueless middle-level (white) guys - to be clear, women, regardless of color, never did this to me. Clearly, they had NOT seen my verbal scores/grades vs. my math ones. I guess they just sucked so bad at math, I was the proverbial one-eyed man in the valley of the blind! ;-) So, I would intentionally play stupid on quant issues and insist on a seat at the real table - some kneecaps had to occasionally be taken out as a result (one the reasons I left that ratrace to be an entrepreneur - i hate being that brutal person), but i came out on top based on this strategy. I saw too many desi people senior to me whose careers were marginalized to the quant functions vs. real leadership and advancement.

In my interaction with her back then, I sensed the same approach taken by Indra in her career, except she seemed to do it with a true smile - again, i am not worthy.

They found critical mass within their own families, extended families, and social circle to reinforce and support their success

Hmmm. I have to say I am surprised by this comment. My experience of Tam Bram families (married into one) is that they are quite patriarchal (and not they alone), and encourage sons much more than daughters. The tradition of educating daughters is quite common among some other Brahmin communities too, but encouraging and fostering ambition and dynamism? That's rare.

I hear ya razib. There is always a challenge for people of color in big corporations, but as Nooyi, and countless others can attest to, you do not let that keep you down. It is incumbent on the minoirty/oppressed (or perceived oppressed) to punch a little harder, work a little smarter, etc.

i concur.

"No, I'm not claiming exclusivity. I'm saying his name is used by disney, warner, et al as a selling point for his films, it's kind of like cream on the top, so to speak. It's a weird phenomenon actually, I think it sort inverts at some point.
If you're a small fish in whatever business (but I think it's heightened in the film/media biz, where image & marketing is key) then youre expected to shunt your culture, tow the line, assimilate completely... but once you reach a milestone point, or a point of any kind of power in the public eye, then the powers that be will milk the cultural background if it sells. For example, they'd never do it for African culture because, the powers that be were responsible for destroying, at least a part of it."

i can sort of see your point. sort of like if kal penn suddenly became a brad pitt-level star and they used his real name to promote the movies. but that could also be because he had achieved a level of acceptance that made it possible for him to use his full name (and it's unfortunate that in this day and age a person still has to change names against their better instincts to get work), not necessarily because disney/whoever wanted to use his "exotic" aspect as a selling point (although that may also be part of it. but i think these days, unlike in the old studio system, the actors have far more control over their names and how they want to be seen by the public) in shyamalan's case, however, i don't think he ever really changed his name on his work (except from manoj to night, but the "montrous" shyamalan was always there), so i don't see how any film company can be accused of using it as a selling point. scorsese is a selling point, as is spielberg because they make movies that are considered good and make money (and i know that shyamalan has received mixed critical success, but his box office success and the fact that he's the director overrides any other reason, in my opinion for his name being out there. people associate his name with a certain type of movie. why wouldn't they use his name, whether it's shyamalan or jones to promote the movie?)

"So could pepsi sell more cans by having a high ranking indian in a sari? Probably not, well perhaps to India, but they can definitely boast to the business community about how diverse and committed they are to being "color blind""

- i don't get your point. she chooses to wear it to the odd board meeting behind closed doors and on other occasions, mostly seen by other business people, not the general public. so i don't think they are parading her or she is parading herself. it's just a garment, like any other. of course they might pride themselves on having a company in which an originally non-american, non-white woman who is comfortable in her own skin and comfortable across a variety of cultures has risen so high. what's wrong with that? it doesn't take anything away from her achieving this because of her own talents and a corporate culture that allowed her to use her talents to rise to the top. money is everything in the business world, and no matter what her "exotic" appeal or gender, she would never have achieved this without being deserving. if her "exotic" aspects and gender are a bonus, so much the better for the company as long as it didn't compromise on its standards or hers. it's the way of the world.

I know anecdote isn't data, but 4 years ago, as a North Indian of marraigable age, it was very hard for me to find a North Indian girl (espescially in my Sindhi community) who was career oriented, which was one of my top criteria. Even if we did, the girls wanted a well-settled boy (meaning a GC holder/citizen who has bought a house, and has family nearby). Most of the girls were (and I hate to say it) flaky and undecisive. The line that I hated most, which often came out of North Indian girls' mouths:- "If you prefer this, it's ok, if you prefer that, that's also ok. Whatever you prefer"

Most of the time, it was easier to find a stronger and more career oriented woman from the southern community. That's why I married a Tamil Iyer. Yes, I am a chicken-munching Sindhi married to a vegetarian TamBrahm. Wonder what will our kids look like, eh?.

I'm not saying that all North Indian girls are flaky,and my observations are not a result of some study. They are definetly observations of a lonely desi, so I would encourage you to take that with a grain of salt. Maybe there were some cultural influences that made career-oriented North Indian girls exclude me from their filter. But, going through this arranged marraige thing seriously started making me hope that I could resign from being a Sindhi papad.

Chandi, your experience (marrying into a TamBram family) counts for a lot. Indian families in general are patriarchanl. So, could it be--and I could be wrong at this--that as rare as educating the girls, fostering ambition and dynamism is amongst Indian families the South Indian Brahmins do it just a tad more than others, to account for what we see in the real world? Meaning, for a community as small as say the TamBrams, there is a high presence of their women in the professional world.

Razib, sure a larger sample size would help. Going by impressions for now in my experience I'd say there aren't a lot of Indian women executives in tech, the few there are clearly identifiable, and about 50%+ of Indian women executives in tech are of South Indian origin. When the numbers aren't large, I guess naming a few is sufficient to wonder if there is a pattern.

Al Beruni's query--what accounts for the high presence of successful South Indian professionals?--has intrigued me for long. I'd love to hear theories, hypotheses, even impressions to explain that:-)

Razib, sure a larger sample size would help. Going by impressions for now in my experience I'd say there aren't a lot of Indian women executives in tech, the few there are clearly identifiable, and about 50%+ of Indian women executives in tech are of South Indian origin.

you need to compare to the number in the general US pop too.

i wanted there to be a 'poll' of SM readers last spring, but the powers-that-be (minus manish) nixed it. well, there's all this demographic speculation still...i for one, would still like to get a more precise sense of the numbers.

Pragma,
Thanks for your comment, and I would love to hear more comments too. I am a PhD professional and Northie who married a Tam Bram who is similarly educated and has a sister who is also a PhD. So far it follows your pattern. But my husband always got more respect and importance in his family even though his sister was equally educated, older, more experienced, and worked in industry. Part of the reason my marriage is ending is that while my education was respected in my husband's family, any ambition or aspirations I had were not. On the other hand, all the girls in my extended Northie family are highly educated professionals who have always been encouraged to have their own identity. Where were you looking Pagla?

what accounts for the high presence of successful South Indian professionals?

Yea, I dunno. You can hardly see a college class picture absent someone from TamilNaduChennai or Kerala. What is the average IQ given for these group? Has there been any IQ studies specifically targeting this South-S Asia? How do they compare with Lankans?

" i don't think he ever really changed his name on his work (except from manoj to night, but the "montrous" shyamalan was always there), so i don't see how any film company can be accused of using it as a selling point. scorsese is a selling point, as is spielberg because they make movies that are considered good and make money (and i know that shyamalan has received mixed critical success, but his box office success and the fact that he's the director overrides any other reason, in my opinion for his name being out there. people associate his name with a certain type of movie. why wouldn't they use his name, whether it's shyamalan or jones to promote the movie?)"

Actually he kept Manoj, it's the M in M Night Shyamalan, Night is a nickname he earned while at NYU, his middle name is Nelliate, while this is a bit off topic, I'll give you an example of a film company exoticizing him and his last name, the Sci Fi network did a documentary on him, where they implied towards the end that he was declared dead for 14 minutes, and is a ghost or some such crap. Can you imagine them saying spielberg is an extra terrestrial, or james cameron is a robot from the future?

But the studios can choose whether to release his film as "An M. Night Shyamalan" or say just "An M. Night" film for example? Both would achieve the same thing, but they go with the later because time and newsweek magazine can gawk over "that cool new name" It doesn't undermine his talent or whatever, but it's an extra plus point.

You can hardly see a college class picture absent someone from TamilNaduChennai or Kerala. What is the average IQ given for these group? Has there been any IQ studies specifically targeting this South-S Asia? How do they compare with Lankans?

the iq for south asia in the aggregate studies is around the low 80s. see lynn & vanhanen. here's a survey, control-f "india."

RK Khan: IQ levels are not that different amongst or across communities/genders/races. Environmental reinforcement (family support, role models, lack of alternatives, etc.) matters more, I think.

Chandi: Sorry to hear your story. Confirms a patriarchal strain in (some? many?) TamBram families and in some ways, that's not surprising. Your ex's sister's education and accomplishments however seem to also validate this thread. We must remember owing to the near V-shape of the country, there are less South Indians and Tam/Kerala Brahmins are a microscopic minority in the Indian context (and even more so, in the American/world technology industry). What accounts for the high presence of successful south indian brahmin professionals?

Well Ms. Warrior is not a TamBrahm, she is, I gather a MALLU! Her community name is more commonly anglicized as Warrier, and more rarely as Variyar -administraors and temple assistants. Shyamalan's mom is most definitely a Tamil Mudaliar --also administrators-- from Pondy, but his dad is a Mallu too. Mallus rule! You can't go to a tea shop in India without meeting a Nair, or some such thing...

Aslo re Ganesh, Rajat Gupta used to keep a photo of his guru, Swami Vivekananda, in his office when he ran McKinsey. So Nooyi's example isn't singular. People can be what they wan't to be and still rise to the top.

Thanks for your comment, and I would love to hear more comments too. I am a PhD professional and Northie who married a Tam Bram who is similarly educated and has a sister who is also a PhD. So far it follows your pattern. But my husband always got more respect and importance in his family even though his sister was equally educated, older, more experienced, and worked in industry. Part of the reason my marriage is ending is that while my education was respected in my husband's family, any ambition or aspirations

Yup, Yup. And that's exactly why my wife was looking for someone outside the TamBrahm community. She is a driven woman (probably more driven than me.. I'm always telling her to relax), and she knew she would be restricted in a TamBrahm family

On the other hand, all the girls in my extended Northie family are highly educated professionals who have always been encouraged to have their own identity. Where were you looking Pagla?
My parents were intially looking through relatives, and friends. Met some girls that I liked but I didn't meet their expectation, but most of the girls, whose expectations I met, were flaky. Now, the North Indian community is not homogenous, so it could be my family. None of my female cousins are really educated, and got married after doing a semi-serious BA/BCom degree. When I was young, I always felt that girls didn't have ambition, but I am not sure anymore whether their non-ambition is a result of the pecularities of my family, or whether North Indian culture influences girls to leave ambition behind. Even, in Software Engineering college in Bombay, we has 8 girls in a class of 80, and probably 2 or 3 of them had some drive. However, percentage-wise, girls were more driven that guys. Up until my parents started looking for girls, I had the impression that it's my family, but I am beggining to think it's Northie culture

Now Northie culture isn't really homogenous, so it just might be my community.

Every time I see a rabid ethnic fervor for all things Indian, especially among second generation Indians, my paternal instincts for protecting and helping our young take over.

As a first generation Indian whose funny accent and other quaint, old-world habits instantly typecast him as an outsider in the American corporate world, I have had to wrestle with the cultural identity vs. assimilation issue all my life. And this is what I have learned - assimilation is not the same as submission, and in any group, corporate or otherwise, success is awarded to people who can lead, mingle and become a team player. To the extent your sari makes you stick out like an Indian maharani to the average gora, your success in any enterprise involving other humans will be limited. You can always go out and invent a cure for cancer, but if your career goal is to merely head the cancer lab, watch out.

I would bet that Nooyi always showed up for work in a dress when she was anxiously climbing the corporate ladder. In fact I have seen her older photos. Once you have become the CEO, you may be exempt from something as low-level as the assimilative attire criteria. But I assure you she now faces a new set of criteria to become "one of the guys" or "gals.". That's the way it is all over the world, even back in India.

Incidentally, I do speak with some expertise on the subject. Having achieved a little success in the American business world, though not quite on Nooyi's scale, and made a buck or two along the way, I have never felt like a self-effacing, homogenized Indian American. I am as Indian as any uncle-ji you have known, and as American as any boss you might have had in your career.

A word of advice - your place of work doesn't have to be the proving grounds of your culture. Conversely, I am not advising you to disguise yourselves at work either. But work, which almost always involves other humans, is assimilative in nature and rewards those who know how to belong.

Nobel laureattes CV Raman and Subramanyan Chandrashekhar, Chess champion Vishwanathan anand, Spiritual guru Sri Sri Ravishankar, Writer Pico Iyer are a few from south Indian Iyer community alone.

hmf, but if they advertised him as m. night, wouldn't we all wonder why and perhaps unfairly accuse them or him of trying to hide his origins? after all, they don't market scorsese as martin or spielberg as simply steven when it would amount to the same thing. using one's last name, no matter what its origins, is standard practice in most any profession. he obviously wants to be known as m. night shyamalan and that's how he's known. you might as well accuse him then of using his own name as an "exotic" ploy. do you use your last name (assuming it's an "unusual" "monstrous" name) in your daily professional life? if so, can you or the company who hired you be accused of using it for your/their own purposes as an added bonus? if it can happen on a big scale like the entertainment industry, it can also happen on a smaller scale or level.

as for that sci-fi thing, it sounds like they were merely spoofing his penchant for movies with strange twists and the way his mind works. the same way he spoofs himself in that amex ad.

Topcat:

All communities can quote such examples.

All communities can quote such examples.

the proust of the papuans? :)

look at the brown winners of nobelz in mathematical sciences. the representation is skewed.

All communities can quote such examples.

Surely yes. But since the topic of South Indian brahmins had propped up, these gentlemen deserved a mention. As for me, I being neither a south Indian nor a brahmin.

The question is not whether Tamil Brahmin cultures - I use the plural because the community is not totally homogeneous being divided broadly between the Iyers and the Iyengars - are patriarchal (they are) but whether they are more so as compared to other Indian sub-cultures. The evidence on this is lacking. Anyone have any? Note also that culture is not static, so attitudes have changed considerably and continue to change. Somehow, in Western representations of India, "culture" is often treated as something static and unchanging.

Just to clarify, I am a male from the community myself.

Surely yes.

i just scanned the nobel prize winners in physics for the 20th century. two brownz. both iyers. two points is tiny. but the chance of two iyers in a row when their % in the pop is probably on the order of 0.1% is pretty comment-worthy.

Nobel laureattes CV Raman and Subramanyan Chandrashekhar

Sure, South India has a long, strong culture of education and enlightenment. No doubt. People like Ramanujan are once a century occurences. CV Raman and Chrandrashekhar were related. Chandrashekhar's mother was a serious scholar.

However, let me point out some other Nobel Lauretes from South Asia: Rabindranath Tagore (Bengal), Hargobind Khurana (Punjab), Abdus Salam (an Ahmediya educated in Lahore, undivided India and then later Pakistan), and Amartya Sen (Bengal). It is a mixed bag.

Re: Indian women educated. I know FOBinis from Meerut and other dhura places who quite high up in places like IBM. My mother got her PhD in Chemistry in 1961. She is as North India as it gets. My niece just graduated from Cambridge U. in Computer Science. Her roots are in UP and Delhi.

the iq for south asia in the aggregate studies is around the low 80s. see lynn & vanhanen. here's a survey, control-f "india."

Thnks for the link. It is a bit mysterious, because IQ's of that range would not have a sufficient g to master the complexities of IT and all the engineering dominant professions we find these south-S Asian in. That IQ in the low 80's is, by Lynn et al, typical for ME and Central/South Asia more broadly. Also, the backward people of the central america and the caribbean score around this area. So it is quite a spread from IQ ≥ 80's to the 135-155 IQ's required for complex technical studies. I wonder whether the social class of these south-S Asians is representive of south S Asians more generally?

>>>"Nooyi attends PepsiCo board meetings in a sari; for she believes the corporate world appreciates people who are genuine"

i think that just a bunch of boloney...may be she only goes to board meetings in a sari, but in majority of the pictures on google she is not weating a sari

I wonder whether the social class of these south-S Asians is representive of south S Asians more generally?

american brownz are selection biased. and they aren't regressing back to a mean of 80 for IQ (i checked father-offspring # of years of college for FOBs and their kids). in other words, there is probably some population stratification here. but, there is some evidence from the UK that brownz tend to close some of the gap with whites when in a european environment (from lynn). but this might be selection biasing too, though not as extreme. data from mauritius, south africa and the carribean suggest lower median IQs than whites, though not necessarly (ie south africa) on the g component (there are other components of variation).

i just scanned the nobel prize winners in physics for the 20th century. two brownz. both iyers.

Dude, you missed Abdus Salam. One of the greatest theoretical physicist, even Chandrashelar would agree.

Abdus Salam was an Ahmediya.

You are missing people Satyen Bose of Bose-Einstein Condensate fame.

It is a mixed bag.

Did we mention the enterprising parsi community, a very miniscule population but big shots like the Tatas and Homi Bhabha.

kush, good catch! perhaps he was from a tambram convert family? :)

though seriously, sahel is related to bose.

i mean saheli datta.

RK Khan: IQ levels are not that different amongst or across communities/genders/races. Environmental reinforcement (family support, role models, lack of alternatives, etc.) matters more, I think.

I utterly disagree. I think that large IQ differences exist, they are ubiquitous and highly heritable. Of course, what you mention is counted in the environmental variance, but that variance taken into account doesn't amount to very much really. Twin studies, Family and Adoption studies all point to genes being dominant here, AFAIK.

"Homi Bhabha" What a cool name! Parsis have awesome names. Tata!

Did we mention the enterprising parsi community, a very miniscule population but big shots like the Tatas and Homi Bhabha.

Definitely. Also, Zubin Mehta, Godrejs, Wadias (Bombay Dyeing) fame.

I do not believe in %ages but probably Parsees will come on top.

how the fuck did a post about Indra Nooyi turn into a debate about eugenics, relative ethnic superiorities and last names??

LOL.

The Parsis are a community high in my regard for their philanthropy, progressiveness, and enterprise. They have an acute problem that they have to work out within themselves as their emphasis on intra-community marriages (within a small and shrinking population) has led to debilitating diseases. JRD Tata was a giant amongst all the business leaders I've met/interacted with.

I don't see anyone disputing the high presence of successful South Indian women in the professional world. Given everything else remains the same--patriarchical Indian family system, education and accomplishment in other communities as well, etc.--I ask my question again:

What accounts for the high presence of successful South Indian (esp Brahmin) women in the professional world? This is all the more remarkable given they are a microscopic minority in the Indian/world business environment.

In the context of that specific question it is irrelevant whether Padmasree is a Malayali or a Tamil married to a Tamil/Malayali Warrier or Variyer or the presence/absence of success in other communities.

american brownz are selection biased. and they aren't regressing back to a mean of 80 for IQ (i checked father-offspring # of years of college for FOBs and their kids). in other words, there is probably some population stratification here. but, there is some evidence from the UK that brownz tend to close some of the gap with whites when in a european environment (from lynn). but this might be selection biasing too, though not as extreme. data from mauritius, south africa and the carribean suggest lower median IQs than whites, though not necessarly (ie south africa) on the g component (there are other components of variation).

Thanks razib, exactly what I was curious about.

I think there was some controversy relating to last year's Physics Nobel prize involving E. C. G. Sudarshan of the University of Texas, Austin. I guess some physicists (mostly Indian, so far as I can tell) felt that the prize which went to Roy Glauber should have been shared with Sudarshan. The Indian magazine Frontline reports it here.

I don't see anyone disputing the high presence of successful South Indian women in the professional world.

i find it plausible, but i think one issue many of us have is that no robust data sets have been presented. i'm not going to dispute an assertion with a few exemplars. you might be right, or you might be wrong.

IQ levels are not that different amongst or across communities/genders/races. Environmental reinforcement (family support, role models, lack of alternatives, etc.) matters more, I think.

The genes attribute certain characteristics to a race. Like for example
-Jews have probably produced more intellectual thinkers than any other community Einstein, Speilberg et al
-Punjabis are more physically strong etc
Every race has a unique quality, so no question of racism here

how the fuck did a post about Indra Nooyi turn into a debate about eugenics, relative ethnic superiorities and last names??

I agree.

My theory is any community that is small in numbers in it's immediate surroundings will usually do better than the more preponderant groups. Whether it's Sikhs or Parsis in India, Marwaris in Assam, Indians or Jews in America. Many explanations can be given.

My theory is any community that is small in numbers in it's immediate surroundings will usually do better than the more preponderant groups. Whether it's Sikhs or Parsis in India, Marwaris in Assam, Indians or Jews in America.

no.

blacks in america? gypsies in europe? indigenous people in mexico?

jilted_manhood - an excellent point about smaller, marginalized groups...one could argue their "disproportionate" success is related to their relative handicap and place in the predominant surroundings.

apu, which is why dalits are so successful in india?

not trying to be a bitch, but the hypothesis needs many more parameters.

The theory about smaller/marginalized groups doesn't hold up. Innumerable other Indian communities, each small and certainly microscopic in the Indian/world business theater, don't have the presence the South Indian (Brahmin) women do in the professional world.

Perhaps Indra somewhere has hinted or said something about what contributed to her success...and that can be revealing about the South Indian (Brahmin) community....

razib - you are correct, there is more to the story. one needs to look at the history of a given group and what kind of oppression they faced in the past and how they reacted to it. the 3 groups you mentioned did not find the power - political, social or otherwise - but were larger (as a %age of the national pop) than groups like the Parsees, and really kept distinct identities in more than just commerce.

People like the Parsees, who always believe in blending in completely (see Deepa Mehta's "Earth" for an interesting discussion of this) and really had a head start in terms of education, family bonds, etc. (and no history of brutal slavery, family tearing, horrible racism, etc. like the 3 groups you mention), are in a different category.

blacks in america? gypsies in europe? indigenous people in mexico?

Razib, I was going to point those aberrations out in my comment. I also should have been more precise - not just smaller in numbers but also people who emigrated voluntarily ( I would consider persecuted people like Parsis in Iran in this category ) from their native lands. Blacks didn't. On the other hand the recent African immigrants seem to do well in America. The indigenous people didn't emigrate neither are they a minority in places like Bolivia, Ecuador, Peru or even Mexico

What accounts for the high presence of successful South Indian (esp Brahmin) women in the professional world? This is all the more remarkable given they are a microscopic minority in the Indian/world business environment.

Talking specifically about south Indian brahmin sisters, their professional achievements are due to the fact that they have a high literacy rate. Way too many south bramhin women have atleast an undergraduate degree.

just an my understanding is that zoroastrians in iran ("gadirs" or "iranis") are also professionals. not as elite as parsis. and iyers do well in tamil nadu and south india. so the voluntary immigrant hypothesis has only so much explanatory value.

(the chinese who emigrate to most of the world are south chinese, especially fujianese mercantile patrilineages, so the 'voluntary immigrant' hypothesis has to do with selection biasing)

razib, regarding dalits - government policy has helped them through disproportionate representation in Lok Sabha, etc...unlike the poor in America, the poor in India fucking vote - good on them, regardless of the outcome.

I think there was some controversy relating to last year's Physics Nobel prize involving E. C. G. Sudarshan of the University of Texas, Austin. I guess some physicists (mostly Indian, so far as I can tell) felt that the prize which went to Roy Glauber should have been shared with Sudarshan. The Indian magazine Frontline reports it here.

Sudarshan is another Mallu - a Syrian Christian who converted to Hinduism, and yes, he came very close to winning the physics prize. Also Meghnad Saha, a Hindu Bengali Dalit, has an astrophysics equation, the Saha effect, named after him.

Yuck.

This comment thread, from #69 all the way down, is Sepia Mutiny at its worst.

Yuck yuck yucketty yuck.

risible, interesting....

(these are the kind of things i like to know)

enough of the caste analysis, Macacas !!!
IQ test itself is a biased way of testing.

Razib, on Saha. This guy is inspiring. Being impure and all that nonsense, upper castes wouldn't let him dine in the same hall as him at college:

Megnadh Saha

In the l9th century physicists developed a technique by which one can
identify what chemical element is present in a distant source by carefully
examining (by means of a spectroscope) the light emanating from it. This
method of analysis opens up the possibility of knowing the composition of
stars and of our own sun. It was undoubtedly a most important scientific
breakthrough.
Gradually one came to expect, on the basis of their properties, the presence
of certain elements in the sun. However, not all these seemed to be there.
In particular, rubidium and cesium which were expected to be in the sun's
chromosphere were conspicuously absent. This remained a mystery until
Meghnath Saha came to the scene and solved the puzzle.
When Saha was assigned to teach a course on thermodynamics, it occurred to
him that perhaps one could combine thermodynamics and (the then emerging)
quantum mechanics to a study of matter in stars where the temperatures are
extremely high. Thus, his interest turned to astrophysics. Now he is said to
have undertaken a systematic study of the Monthly Notices of the Royal
Astronomical Society of 25 years. While engaged in this, an insightful idea
occurred to him: In chemistry one talks about the dissociation of molecules
at high temperatures: that is, molecules break up into their component
atoms. In atomic physics, one speaks of ionization: atoms are stripped of
their electrons at very high temperatures. Saha worked out a theory based on
this analogy. His theory gave a measure of the ionization in a hot gas as a
function of temperature and electron pressure.
The relevance of all this was in the study of the spectra of light from the
sun and stars, a topic that is of great importance in understanding the
nature and composition of stellar bodies. Saha's important results on this
subject were published in a classic paper entitled On Ionization in the
Solar Chromosphere in the prestigious Philosophical Magazine in 1920. The
problems considered in this paper were of enormous moment, and had been
suggested by Niels Bohr to some of the brightest physicists of the time.
In 1919, when Saha went to Europe for two years, he spent five months at the
Imperial College in London where he discussed his ideas with A. Fowler and
E. A. Milne, leading astrophysicists of the time. He then traveled in Europe
where he had occasion to interact with such giants of the time as Max
Planck, Arnold Sommerfeld, and Albert Einstein. These meetings also inspired
him to establish scientific research institutions in India. Some leading
German physicists did experiments to confirm Saha's theory. This gave
further boost to the theory.
In physics, natural phenomena are explained in terms of certain general
laws, principles, and equations. Thus we have Newton's law of gravitation,
the principle of matter-energy conservation and Bernoulli's equation for
fluid flow. Other famous equations are Euler's equations of rotational
dynamics, Maxwell's equations in electromagnetism, and Boltzmann's equation
in thermodynamics. In astrophysics, we have Saha's equation. Thus Saha is
immortalized in physics.
Upon his return to India, Saha was appointed professor of physics at
Calcutta University. Because he did not find sufficient support for his work
here, he moved to Allahabad where he spent the next fifteen years. During
this period, he also developed an interest in ionospheric physics.
Saha was also an activist. He played an important role in the Indian Science
Congress. He established the United Provinces Academy of Sciences, which
grew into the National Academy of Sciences. He also initiated the Indian
Science News Association, and the National Institute of Science. He started
the influential journal Science & Culture which has been publishing
countless articles on science and culture over the decades.
During India's freedom struggle, Saha was among the scientists who devoted
their full attention to their technical fields, and did not spend as much of
their time and energy in fighting the British. Saha was not particularly
sympathetic to the khadi movement in which Gandhi and his followers called
for a boycott of British goods in favor of developing cottage industries.
Saha and others feared this would slow down India's industrial progress.
After India's independence, however, Saha turned his attention to the
social, economic, political, and educational problems confronting the new
nation. He now worked hard to rid his people of ancient superstitions and of
astrology, though not very successfully. Under his leadership, an institute
of nuclear physics was established in Calcutta in 1950, which came to be
named after him after his demise. In 1953, Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru
asked Saha to chair the Calendar Reform Committee to bring about some
uniformity among the 30 different calendars then used in India. Saha also
served as a Member of the Indian Parliament. Such was the life and work of
this great physicist who probed into the workings of stars from here below.

I dont know why Mr. K is having a cow over this discussion!

Cultural practices in communities do make a big difference. European jews have cultural practices that support literacy (torah reading) and a history of being forced into non-farming occupations (ownership of land by jews