Don't you think we're being used by the dems too? Because they think of us as Macacas also? What about Webb's stand on other issues? Should we may be worry about that? You know, some of us are throwing money at this guy? Should we be worried about this?

Whoa, nicely done, brother.

Bottom line: the bottom line. Give to Webb's campaign and give him fuel.

Write or call every member of the mainstream media (T.V., newspapers, etc.) you can and tell them that news reports that do not include the information about Allen's mother's heritage, his fluency in French, and thus his likely familiarity with the term "macaca" are irresponsible journalism. Thus far, I have not seen a single news report containing this information. Even "Nightline" on Wednesday night. But it's all out on the web. The information shatters Allen's credibility (although he and his campaign staff have been doing a great job of that on their own with their shifting explanations).

Call every South Asian organization and ask them to condemn Allen's actions in the strongest possible terms. This is not a time for people to make nice.

Call your member of Congress and Senator and ask them to condemn Allen's actions--formally through congressional resolution. Tell them the apology that said "sorry if you felt hurt" is not an apology.

But if you do nothing else, put some money into Webb's campaign. He's the one who can send Allen to the unemployment line.

Don't you think we're being used by the dems too? Because they think of us as Macacas also? What about Webb's stand on other issues? Should we may be worry about that? You know, some of us are throwing money at this guy? Should we be worried about this?

Maybe we should ask Sidarth if he thinks there's a difference between Webb and Allen. Clearly he does and has made a choice. This kind of relativism is not productive. Webb has no public history of racism (Confederate flags, nooses on ficus trees in his office, opposing the Martin Luther King, Jr. holiday, etc.)

You know, some of us are throwing money at this guy? Should we be worried about this?

Absolutely. Regardless of who you give money to you should review their platform and their record to see if it is generally in line with your beliefs and that they are a clear alternative to the other candidate(s).

I know congratulations are in order for Congressman Jindal on his new little macaca. But does anyone know whether he has spoken out on this yet? You ought to contact his office as well. Hope he doesn't sell us out like the IARC.

Webb has no public history of racism (Confederate flags, nooses on ficus trees in his office, opposing the Martin Luther King, Jr. holiday, etc.)

He been accussed of anti-semitism b/c of this ad. His opponent is Jewish, he depicts him w/ a hooked nose (i believe the guy actually has a hooked nose) and money grubbing (he's a corporate lobbyist). Is this a sterotype of a jew, or legit criticism. I think he has plausible denial here but it's worth a look.

Interstingly, it is about outsourcing jobs. Now, in my book being oppossed to outsourcing does not make one anti-indian; but in the democtratic book, if the outcome of a policy hurts a minority then racism is a legit charge. So indians should demsnd an explanation from the dems. especially those that bemoan nativism and jingoism.

But, as a republican; i'm glad you're putting an end to allen's career.

I just read the ad again. I never noticed the "anti-christ" line before (nor did I hear it in the press). That puts it over the line for me. He must have known what he was doing.

Interstingly, it is about outsourcing jobs. Now, in my book being oppossed to outsourcing does not make one anti-indian; but in the democtratic book, if the outcome of a policy hurts a minority then racism is a legit charge. So indians should demsnd an explanation from the dems. especially those that bemoan nativism and jingoism

Good point. It's also interesting to see how the highminded Indian democrats are politicizing this incident to subtly tarnish the entire Republican party.

Abhi,

The blogosphere received credit for providing steam to this story on NPR's News and Notes in the August 16th show.

Incidentally, wouldn't it be beneficial for the Dems (at the national, not Virginia level) to see Allen make a bid for Republican nomination inorder to air his plethora of dirty laundry for the nation to see? It would be an opportunity to smudge other GOP candidates as bigots with a broader brush and the guilty-by-association tactic. Frankly, I'd like to see the worst of the viable GOP candidates come forward for this very reason.

I know congratulations are in order for Congressman Jindal on his new little macaca.

George Allens of the world realize--you just don't f*** with Macacas.

to help Webb wipe the smirk off of Allen's face, vindicate Macacahood, and end the curry train for the brown-nosing (pun and visual image intended) Indian American Republican Council.

tell them that news reports that do not include the information about Allen's mother's heritage, his fluency in French, and thus his likely familiarity with the term "macaca" are irresponsible journalism

Hope he doesn't sell us out like the IARC

message right now to those like Allen that we "Macacas" are the "real America."

Let's make sure the George Allens of the world and their patrons know that the macacas are coming and we're here to stay

You seem to have an impressive resume, sir. But I think the above comments are more becoming of an incensed college age activist like me than that of a mature ex candidate for public office like you.

Jilted,

You seem to have an impressive resume, sir. But I think the above comments are more becoming of an incensed college age activist like me than that of a mature ex candidate for public office like you.

Finally man, you speak what's on my mind. He sounds more like College Democrat who relishes hurting GOP candidates than an Indian who cares about a cultural stigma or something to that effect. That's why I've been wary of this entire affair, Allen might be a typical jerk like the type you meet at Home Depot, but it seems to me that a few Dems are like that too. It really wasn't the "macaca" comment that offended me, what got me was the patronizing "welcome to America" bit. That really bugs me because it doesn't show racism (it could), it shows ignorance. In any case, I guess my point is, Subodh Chandra wants to make this a Republican vs. Democrat thing. I don't.

In any case, I guess my point is, Subodh Chandra wants to make this a Republican vs. Democrat thing. I don't.

Petty as it may be, the GOP laid a fertile foundation for this type of Beltway tripe the past 16 years. You reap what you sow.

Daycruz --

In any case, I guess my point is, Subodh Chandra wants to make this a Republican vs. Democrat thing. I don't.

What's your specific basis for this? Allen is a Republican, and Subodh says hold him accountable. That doesn't establish the claim you make here. Lots -- indeed, most -- of what Subodh helpfully suggests does not require giving money to Allen's opponent, although that is indeed one of his suggestions.

Although, what makes you think that Subodh wouldn't be equally critical if there were a Democrat with a similar record as Allen on the subject of race? He did, after all, just run in a heated primary against another Democrat who he didn't hesitate to criticize when appropriate. It sounds like someone might be trying to make this a Republican vs. Democrat issue, but I don't think it's Subodh. ;)

Allen might be a typical jerk like the type you meet at Home Depot, but it seems to me that a few Dems are like that too. It really wasn't the "macaca" comment that offended me, what got me was the patronizing "welcome to America" bit. That really bugs me because it doesn't show racism (it could), it shows ignorance.

I think that if you look at Allen's comment in context, it shows more than mere ignorance. As many have already noted, Allen has a pretty deep and problematic history on the subject of race -- confederate flags, nooses hanging from ficus trees in his office, etc.

Maybe there are indeed Democratic political figures like that too, but your sweeping bid for equivalence between Democrats and Republicans isn't really supportable unless you name some names and defend your claim -- that way, the rest of us can actually evaluate whether the claim makes any sense, or whether it is purely hypothetical.

And whether it actually manifests in policy issues affecting South Asians. That last question is a fair one to ask about Allen too, of course -- it is possible that his record on issues affecting South Asians belies his stupid comments, although the extent of his record of racial insensitivity -- a noose hanging in his office, for goodness sakes, and lame efforts to defend it as "more of a lasso" -- is sufficiently extreme to raise red flags all by itself.

I got something to say here. Bear with me, please:

You guys, this Allen business is a big deal. The guy really has ugly views, always has, and clearly still does. The Confederate battle flag and noose stuff should have sunk him a long time ago, and yet it didn't, not for any lack of African-American outrage, but because people in Virginia let it happen. He's gotten away with a lot and clearly he has developed (and probably had all along) the "I'm doing this because I can and fuck you if you don't like it" mentality. The macaca incident comes along and in the scale of things, it's not as big a deal as the Confederate flag and noose stuff, but it confirms the pattern. It also comes at a time when he's in the national eye in a way he wasn't before. Now that he's in the national eye, so are those of us who choose to respond. As we respond, we're not just responding to "macaca;" we're also responding to his prior outrages that he got away with until now.

On Democrat vs. Republican: I believe most (though not all) of us at the Mutiny would describe ourselves as leaning Democratic, leaving our Canadian sista out of it of course; our readers are all over the map, and our lurkers are surely more scattered too (as well as geographically, beyond the US). So, big deal. What we are not is a partisan blog. We get involved in US politics the same way we get involved with literature or movies or celebrity gossip -- because there's a desi angle. Not long ago we gave what some people called a platform to a Republican candidate for office, Raj Bhakta, including a link to the contribution page on his site.

Now we're giving you an argument to contribute to the campaign of the direct opponent of a bigot who just dissed us. You can feel free to do so, or not; we're making a suggestion, and I certainly won't think anything less of you if you don't. Hell, I haven't contributed anything myself, other than the thinking and time that goes into these comments. (Then again, my freelance ass is broke.)

Now, will there be Democrats who "use this event for political gain"? Will there be Republicans who "use the response to this event for political gain"? Hell yes! It's a political event, for fuck's sake! Will some of the more outrageous attempts to reframe the event find their way onto this site? Of course they will. Do you have to agree with them? Of course not. Abhi called out the IARC -- your fellow desis -- for immediately reframing the incident as Webb having exploited the volunteer in order to frame Allen. When you think about outrageous spin, remember that.

People: EYES ON THE PRIZE. Meta-conversations about the conversation taking place in this comment thread are typical of what always happens on blogs, but they're also useless, especially now.

Finally, a personal note: No free passes from this informed citizen. I think that any reprobation Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton received for their disparaging and reductive statements about desis was well deserved. They were damn stupid things to say and they should have known better. And if any Democratic candidate starts slinging racist and xenophobic slurs (not to mention Rebel flags and fucking NOOSES FROM TREES) you can bet your MACACA ass that I'll be out there calling them out. NO ONE with a vocation to earn the public's trust and spend the public's tax money should get away with this sort of behavior.

Bottom line: Don't wanna give to Webb? No problem. Want to give Allen a free pass on this one? That's on you. But remember, please, that this isn't about one Senate race in one state. This is about racism and xenophobia in American public life -- how much of it is allowable by the leaders we look to as examples, whom we allow to spend our money, and in whom we place our trust for security and well-being. You can chooser to fight on this particular front, or on another, or none at all. All I ask is that you pay attention.

the brother speaks the truth.

Interstingly, it is about outsourcing jobs. Now, in my book being oppossed to outsourcing does not make one anti-indian; but in the democtratic book, if the outcome of a policy hurts a minority then racism is a legit charge. So indians should demsnd an explanation from the dems. especially those that bemoan nativism and jingoism.
Well put. I have often thought that John Kerry's "fair trade" position is monkey economics, but I don't think of it as racism. However, from the Democrat's own policy book, it would qualify as extreme bias, if not racism.

But, as a republican; i'm glad you're putting an end to allen's career.
Word. As another Republican, I can't wait to see the back of Allen.

Here's where this post takes off and ranks amongst the best:

"In the immortal words of John “Hannibal” Smith, “I love it when a plan comes together.”"

Well said Siddharta. If we can't unite on racism and xenophobia, we ain't uniting on anything.

C'mon give USINPAC its due !!! You should have watched yesterday's Nightline. USINPAC was the only high profile Desi organization that made Sen. Allen apologize. Much respect to Mr. Sajay Puri of USINPAC who in a following interview said that "The Indian American community was deeply hurt and insulted by this. We expect better from our leaders".

Rather than dissing USINPAC on partisan (or perceived partisan) basis, all desis must thank them for taking the lead on this issue and putting this extremely important issue on the national media. As Siddhartha points out this is more than who will raise my taxes and who wont and some little local Virginia issue, this is much bigger than that.

I agree with RC on USINPAC. Yes, USINPAC has Indian nationalists, but they KNOW that the future here is about here. We just have to keep reminding them.

http://bsdetector.blogspot.com/2006/08/george-allen-stepped-in-macaca.html --worth a gander,me thinks.

typical jerk like the type you meet at Home Depot

While I am all for the demise of Allen's political career, I am afraid that all of these efforts to shame him will have one unintended consequence - the birth of a slur. Be honest - none of us knew off the top of our heads what a macaca was. And considering Allen was fumbling around for days to simply confirm what the word was, it only added to the confusion. But be repeating this over and over, we may have added a word to America's rich lexicon of racial epithets. Granted, it is unlikely to carry the weight of "nigger", "kike", or "jigaboo" - but it's a pathetic legacy of Allen that he will be most remembered for adding a new insult to the language. "Dothead" and "Towelhead" always seemed juvenile to me, and anyone who actually tried to use such a word intending to hurt would look pathetic. But macaca may have staying power.

Biden and Clinton, although I do not agree with their politics, do not have Allen's track record when it comes to dealing with Indian-Americans or other racial minorities. John McCain managed to survive despite using the term "gook" - for him it was a term not towards Asians in general, but directed at the prison guards that tortured him as a POW in Vietnam. You can say that nothing in the rest of his career suggests racial animus. He even became enraged in 2000 when members of the Bush campaign tried to make his adopted Bangladeshi daughter an issue in the race.

Is there a risk of turning this into a Democrat versus Republican issue? Yes, but the bigger risk is letting Allen get re-elected. There are plenty of Republicans in other states that do not engage in Allen's antics. If he loses, the lesson will hopefully be (to paraphrase from the disappointing film Munich), "Don't fuck with the Indians."

sr sidarths grandparents reply to the washington post... bob?

Don't some of you want to read up on Webb before you start donating to his campaign willy-nilly? Some of you progressives might find that a few of his views are jarring to you, but, whatever, you are adults and can make up your own minds. Look, I respect his past service to this country but I don't agree with him on certain issues and will not support him with cash donations.

Anyway, this Republican will not cast a vote for Allen, ever, for anything.

And, although I am disappointed with the statements from the Indian American Republican Council, and would have made a very different statement were I a spokesman (or even a member) Dr. Vijay has got involved. I mean, he started the group in 2002 from what I've been reading about the group, and is trying to start a grassroots network of Indians with conservative political views, and, well, isn't that action mutineering? Dr. Vijay, or other IARC types reading: this is a good time to understand that you have real political power and clout and you can work within the system and *still* remain independent. You can support Republican candidates without excusing unexcusable behavior. It's not that hard.

*Won't the Indian papers pick this story up? Good job undoing some of the recent American charm offensive toward India, Senator Allen. Nice going.

*A bipartisan statement from Indian American groups on both the right and left would be interesting.....

I actually don't think Biden's comments were mean spirited. On the other hand Allen clearly is a bigot. I have no problem with commenters chewing him out on this site. However for an adult who ran for public office ( not a trivial one ) to make the comments Mr Chandra has, makes him come across as either very juvenile or a political extremist. An Indian Sharpton may be. I mean if No Von Mises or Pied Piper ( or some other commenter ) taunted Jindal's newborn in the fashion Chandra has, it's understandable. Or maybe he just got carried away, which is again not a good sign. Just read his comments again. There's a divisive undertone.

though i suspect that i'm a republican in name only at this point because of my foreign policy disagreemants with the 'mainstream' Right, i too think that the context matters for allen. i do not totally disagree with the general sentiment of daycruz's assertion, and do think a double standard exists for republicans (manish & i corresponded a bit in the fall of 2003 about how bobby jindal was treated by the media, not for his views, but his 'dark skin' and 'black hair,' etc.). but allen is the sort of republican who needs to go.

Way to go Abhi on a clear post that shows how a mutineering can have such a big cause and effect in the political stream. I'm very impressed to see the community come out and take a stand on this- and the organized efforts it's taken.

Macaca is number one on the search engines? Impressive.

btw, i was more offended by 'welcome to america' assertion that 'macaca.' i mean, 'macaca' seems to be at the 'yakoo' level of slur.

The welcome to America is probably the most condescending, I thought republicans are usually told by the mothership to keep their mouth shut, lest they may be "Trent Lott'ed"

You seem to have an impressive resume, sir. But I think the above comments are more becoming of an incensed college age activist like me than that of a mature ex candidate for public office like you.

Ouch. I was all set to flame you when my wife said you had a point. :-)

You are right, I am incensed. We all should be. And it's the college-age activist still in me that wants everyone to stand up and act here and not just philosophize. I want to see our community to display some courage, not just in the blogosphere, but by speaking truth directly to power and holding them accountable. This is an opportunity for us to find out who are friends are.

In any case, I guess my point is, Subodh Chandra wants to make this a Republican vs. Democrat thing. I don't.

Find me a Democrat that has Allen's history and said the kind of things he has said and I'll be just as incensed. (Biden's comments were downright idiotic and Senator Clinton's "joke" about Gandhi was ill sonsidered and she didn't make any excuses and apologized immediately; I don't think they reach the Allen stratosphere and neither has Allen's history.)

This isn't about Democrats versus Republicans. This is about right versus wrong and people of all political persuasions being able to find common purpose in drawing some lines as to what kind of people they want leading them.

Having said that, I do think this incident ought to raise for South-Asian-American Republicans some self examination about the takeover of the Republican party by the extreme religious right and jingoistic forces. When President Johnson finally got the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed (with the help of liberal Democrats and moderate Republicans), he famously said "There goes the South for a generation" for the Democratic Party. And since then, Republican stategists have accommodated. Nixon had a Southern strategy filled with code language. Reagan went to Philadelphia, Mississippi, where civil-rights activists were murdered, and talked about "state's rights." In 2004, George W. Bush used people's prejudices to bring out Ohio voters who could be led to believe that gay people were a bigger threat to them than the unemployment they were suffering. And the extremists on the religious right want public schools to discard science and teach "intelligent design," post the (Judeo-Christian) Ten Commandments everywhere, organized school prayer, etc.

I have a lot of admiration for the principled Republican political leaders of the past: Lowell Weicker, Warren Rudman, John Gardner; even Barry Goldwater who was a fairly principled libertarian. I like some of the principled stands that John McCain takes although I am dismayed by his recent flirting with Jerry Falwell, etc. I believe firmly in a strong criminal-justice system, the fiscal conservatism that the Republican Party used to stand for, and vigilant national security. Although I could not personally stomach being around the Republican operatives who play these "divide-and-conquer" strategies, nor around the George Allens of the world, I am glad that there are South-Asian-Americans who are in the Republican Party. But only if they are willing to stand up and hold the party accountable, internally, and if necessary publicly.

The fact is, the Republican Party in Ohio and nationally has been milking the big brown cow (oops, there goes the college-age activist in me) for campaign money for over a decade now. And if certain political leaders have learned nothing from their eating-somosas-at-fundraisers exposure, and are still harboring these feelings, then that ought to cause at least some self examination by South-Asian-American Republicans. That is not to say that its easy to change underlying principled philosophies and "become Democrats." But it ought to make some wonder whether the Republicans are offering a true-big-tent home right now or whether it's all window dressing.

Regardless, as I said above, we ought to examine very carefully who are friends are and not assume that party labels make the determination.

After 9/11, a certain Democratic elected official had a Town Hall meeting with the South Asian American community here in Northeast Ohio to hear our concerns. A Sikh gurudwara had already been firebombed. People were getting threatened and beaten up. (My wife and I experienced some rather shocking derogatory comments at a bookstore.) A member of Congress (Louisiana Republican, John Cooksey) made a comment about towelheads. After the Democratic elected official spoke nicely about how much the official cared, I asked the official to please publicly condemn the Republican's comments. The official declined, mumbling something about it not being the official's "style."

Remember, that was our moment of need, when we were all at risk. And at that moment I knew. This has little to do with Democrats versus Republicans. This has to do with character, courage, and self help. We have to have our own representation and not rely on others to stand up and do what is right for us at every turn. And we have to be willing to stand up for others as well.

When I ran statewide for Ohio attorney general, I was embraced by countless people who did not look like me. It was amazing. But I could also tell, occasionally, when people reacted negatively to me based on my race, ethnicity, and name. I could usually turn those people around. But there were still incidents in which people walked away rather than shake my hand. And there were some "leaders" who did not want me to be the nominee out of cynical assumptions about how the public at large would react to me. They were willing to put a ceiling on my opportunity based on race and ethnicity. And this was in a DEMOCRATIC primary.

Neither party has a corner on virtue.

But turning back to the subject at hand, I hope we can all start to agree that George Allen lacks virtue. And if that's true, the best opportunity to hold him accountable is to try to deprive him of his job and a political future.

-----------

However for an adult who ran for public office ( not a trivial one ) to make the comments Mr Chandra has, makes him come across as either very juvenile or a political extremist. An Indian Sharpton may be. I mean if No Von Mises or Pied Piper ( or some other commenter ) taunted Jindal's newborn in the fashion Chandra has, it's understandable. Or maybe he just got carried away, which is again not a good sign. Just read his comments again. There's a divisive undertone.

My dear Jilted_Manhood (great name),

I apologize. I am the father of triplet two-year olds who did not come into this world easily and celebrate the new life that Rep. Jindal and his wife brought into this world under difficult and heroic circumstances. I adopted the term in the same ironic sense that other Sepia Mutiny writers (including our t-shirt-designing-friend Osman did).

Indian Sharpton? OUCH!!! :-)

from one of the letters (not from sidarth's grandparents) that chick pea linked to:

"It also seems worth mentioning that Mr. Allen's mother is a speaker of French and Arabic who came to this country from Tunisia. "Macaca" is a derogatory slur used by speakers of French in reference to blacks, Arabs and dark-skinned people.
Mr. Allen had reason to have knowledge of that particular slur based on his family background and his own knowledge of French. I don't understand how reporting the news can avoid mention of these facts."

i'm glad this reader pointed this out to the WP. again, it's incredible that ordinary readers can ferret out this information, but entire editorials and articles written by trained reporters (with the exception of a few) fail to mention this and say stuff like "although it's unclear what allen meant, clearly it has derogatory implications" or something to that effect. during that nightline piece, allen said something like "those who think i know the meaning of macaca ascribe to me an intelligence i don't have" or something like that. and he wasn't even challenged on it.

Find me a Democrat that has Allen's history and said the kind of things he has said and I'll be just as incensed

robert byrd.

You've got a point, Subodh. I'm certainly not going to be a democrat anytime soon (although the latest antics of some of the Republicans make being a registered independent or libertarian pretty appealing sometimes) but we Indian Americans of any political stripe ought to stand up and say what we mean. Be unafraid, in either party. As for the rest of your discussion, well, I agree, there are racists on both sides and they both royally suck.

razib - I didn't like the welcome to america bit at all. At all. Who you welcoming to America, bub, me? Thanks. This is my country, I'm proud of it, I love it, and, well, maybe I should welcome you to America. Except, I don't want to, really......

md,

seems more galling to me knowing that his mother was an immigrant.

Subodh,

Thanks for taking the time to clear things up. As I said earlier, you do seem to have an impressive background. I don't doubt your commitment to fair public service. I think you got a little carried away when you made those statements. I mean as an ambitious man you must be looking beyond just the desi vote. So for example when a mainstream American moderate in Ohio reads a comment like the following;

eorge Allens of the world realize--you just don't f*** with Macacas.

It might unsettle him/her. The comment comes across as a tad militant. That's why the Sharpton reference. It might be interpreted by some ( most likely the Republican spin machine ) that you are saying "hey White people listen up we Brown people are soon gonna overwhelm you whether you like it or not."

In any event, I guess I was looking out for your ( and other desi ) candidates' interest!

Good luck with public life and say hello to your discerning wife.

Find me a Democrat that has Allen's history and said the kind of things he has said and I'll be just as incensed.

Cynthia McKinney - former Georgia Congresswomen was is stridently anti-Indian. Upon losing in 2002, warned others that "They are coming after you."

Fritz Hollings - South Carolina senator referred to visiting African dignitaries as cannibals

Gus Savage - Chicago congressman who blamed his loss in the 1990s on Jews

Al Sharpton - protested outside a Harlem storefront, supposedly run by Jews, which led to one of the protestors to go in and shoot the place up, killing several employees and customers. Plus his performance in the Crown Heights riots and boycotting Korean grocers.

These examples should not excuse Allen's behavior, but the sloppy attempt to portray Republicans with horns and Democrats with angels and halos will earn you few points. It makes the outrage directed at Allen to be partisan posturing, which has not been the case so far.

Must be something in the air..

Tramm Hudson running for Katherine Harris' seat

Please fellow conservatives, do not make asses of yourselves jumping to conclusions and scream race-baiting, on this one either..

Southern Dems are of a different variety. The dixiecrat, they don't represent the mainstay of the Dem party I think. Al Sharpton example is pushing it at best, he can't be held responsible for some nutbag with a gun.

The dixiecrat, they don't represent the mainstay of the Dem party I think

i'll keep the importance of being a 'mainstay' in mind the next time a republican says something stupid.

Non-sequitor alert: what does IreneFingIrene mean? Have I embarrassed myself asking this question?

Southern Dems are of a different variety. The dixiecrat, they don't represent the mainstay of the Dem party I think. Al Sharpton example is pushing it at best, he can't be held responsible for some nutbag with a gun.

But the NAACP said Bush was responsible for the lynching of James Byrd.

And last I checked, Sharpton was not from the south, so the dixicrat label can't apply.

IMO the Dems are equally guilty

i don't think this is fair. i think there are more racist bubbas in the republican party now. but, i do think it is germane that democrats who are racially "insensitive" tend to get a relative pass. sure, byrd filibustering the civil rights act in '64 is a long time ago, but wtf is up with him using the word n*gger in public in the 21st century? (i saw some apologia for byrd on dem sites, how he had 'made up' for his past. whatever)

We should instead focus on an organized, independent lobbying effort like Jews with AIPAC and work with anyone from either party willing to listen to our community.

What do you mean we should?? There is already USINPAC. Only high profile Indian American group that had the kind of clout to ask for an apology from Allen and be on national media. But a lot of people are hating USINPAC because of their focus on India related policies (as if AIPAC is not working towards Israel issues).

So looks like that even having a PAC that lobbies for the right place of the brown folks is not enough for us. Also it is unthinkable that a bi-partisan Desi group coming togather to stand up against xenophobic attacks such as Allen's.

I myself dont like the fiscal policies of the Dem side, but other than that I am totally on the Dem side of US political spectrum.

Also, I loved Mr. Subodh Chandra's respose. I think Mr. Chandra come out as a person genuinely interested in public service and represent the best of politicians. All the best to him from me.

It's from the scene in Black Hawk Down where that mission to capture Aided's aides started.

jilted_manhood --

I mean if No Von Mises or Pied Piper ( or some other commenter ) taunted Jindal's newborn in the fashion Chandra has, it's understandable.

when did i taunt Jindal's newborn? i haven't done anything of the sort, so why would it be understandable?

Cynthia McKinney - former Georgia Congresswomen was is stridently anti-Indian. Upon losing in 2002, warned others that "They are coming after you."

Now her New Black Panther supporters blame the Jews for her latest loss. There is a clip of their ravings on youtube.com

Cynthia McKinney - former Georgia Congresswomen was is stridently anti-Indian. Upon losing in 2002, warned others that "They are coming after you."

thank god SHE DIDN'T WIN! crazy woman.. i was seriously considering registering here in 'gasp' georgia to vote against her... but thankfully didn't have to...and she still lost.

The Virginian-Pilot, a local newspaper covered the issue with a picture of a couple of desi protesters at last night's "Veterans for Allen" event at Norfolk, Virginia. There was a separate group of veterans who protested as well on the basis of Allen's voting records.

MD,
Non-sequitor alert: what does IreneFingIrene mean? Have I embarrassed myself asking this question?

No, you have not. The same question occurred to me. I just watched the video. It has do with comments about the ostensible inability of African-Americans to swim. I think this is a totally different issue at both the macro and micro level .

From the Virginian-Pilot link in #49

In Norfolk on Wednesday, Jagdish A. Singh, left, and Gogol Ganguli express opposition toward Sen. George Allen over a remark about an Indian-American member of his rival’s campaign.

Not to hijack this thread, but it is amusing to see that name... isn't that Kal Penn's character's name in "The Namesake" ?

Not to hijack this thread, but it is amusing to see that name... isn't that Kal Penn's character's name in "The Namesake" ?

Yup - looks like the guy gave a falso name. Or Miramax sent a guy to begin some underground marketing for the movie.

when did i taunt Jindal's newborn? i haven't done anything of the sort, so why would it be understandable?

Sorry my friend.

Hmm, why does this comment bother me more than Clinton's Gandhi gas-station joke? Biden was just, well, utterly clumsy. But I'm wondering why Clinton's Gandhi joke didn't bother me as much? Is it because I already have a, uh, less than stellar opinion of her politically? I mean, isn't it really offensive to make a joke like that? I'm genuinely asking, not trying to make a point. Allen's comment was just mean. And I suspect those of us who can remember being singled out as brown in a white crowd feel something emotionally when seeing Sidharth being singled out? But the Gandhi joke is just so inexplicable and unfunny and weird and why would you make a joke like that? Anyone else with any theories?

But the Gandhi joke is just so inexplicable and unfunny and weird and why would you make a joke like that? Anyone else with any theories?

you hit the nail on the head with emphasizing the personal dimension. gandhi is an icon. siddarth is a person.

allen's background also makes you sensitie to these sort of things.

It is not possible for Hilary to demean Gandhi's stature with a casual remark like that and all-gandhis-run-gas-stations type of stereotyping is lame, but not vicious. Allen's video is more troublesome at multiple levels. As the only brown and only democrat at a republican event, Sidarth, a young volunteer, was already in a vulnerable position. It was just mean and indecent for Allen to bully him in any way. Using racial slurs and making it clear that as a brown he did not belong there are the worst sort of bullying tactics. Also there is the context of foreign policy of the current republican administration and Allen's personal history.

Allen's screwup! >>> http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5479/allenscrewuptt5.jpg

Porch Macaca? >>> http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4872/porchmacacafk3.jpg

What Carlos Mencia have to say about the senator >>> http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9636/sendeedeedeeqb1.jpg

Just a comment from an African American sista, but please remember Mr. Chandra's remarks about the Southern strategy, which is something Ken Melman said he regretted, but his party isn't actually repudiating. After the passage of the Civil Rights Act, the Republicans seriously courted the southerners who beleived that they'd been betrayed by the Democratic party. And those "bubbas" weren't just making ill considered remarks, they were lynching African Americans who looked the wrong way at a white woman or refused to sell them their property or just got to well educated and "uppity." A lot of those people are still around and they're voting Republican. The dixiecrats? They're republican now. This is not to say that Democrats don't make me cringe every now and again, but I think that many of your African American friends out here have parents and grandparents who remind them of what happened then, and many of us are afarid of the seeming resurgence of those whties who think that way, and we see wearing a confederate flag pin as the tip of thte iceberg.

I'm not sure if it was in this thread, or one of the other threads, but the issue that Allen's maternal heritage was not being covered by the media was raised.

Anyhow, all though this isn't an "article," it does cover her background in a letter to the editor in the NY Times. One of the Mutineers?

MoveOn's petition to the RNC to drop Allen's funding is here.

MoveOn's petition to the RNC to drop Allen's funding is here.

Done.

As a Republican AND a Virginian, I am ashamed to be associated with George Allen. Shame on him and shame on US if we fail to disassociate ourselves from his deplorable words and disgraceful antics. If the RNC does not take a stand, I will not only consider voting for Webb, I will donate to his campaign as well.

We all deserve better than what Allen represents and provides; I'm starting to think that a veteran like Webb who served under a truly legendary President is far more deserving of my support than someone who won't even step up and own their mistakes like a man. Do the right thing and do what George Allen apparently is not capable of-- stand up, honestly, for the American virtues of equality and honor...or step aside for those of us who will.

"Do the right thing and do what George Allen apparently is not capable of-- stand up, honestly, for the American virtues of equality and honor."

Spike Lee would be proud. Ironically, his doc about Katrina is coming out today, or soon. Anyway, Im surprised so many Indian republicans are jumping out of the woodwork against this cat.

why would you think that HMF? If you spend any time on righty sites, it's a pretty fractious bunch with a lot of different opinions about things. No-one is marching to Rove's orders. And it's in keeping with the general tone of the right of center types who post here. They are generally a pretty level headed and independent bunch.

*Will spike lee's documentary discuss the reason article or the popular mechanics articles on KAtrina myths? Most of which were uncorrected by the media after they were printed by the same media. You know, the media that has such high standards of accuracy.

Im surprised so many Indian republicans are jumping out of the woodwork against this cat.

y?

I guess that makes sense, because most Indian republicans are RINOs (Republican in name only) That is, they're rich doctors and benefit from Bush's tax cuts and loose malpractice laws, OR they're social conservative and don't want gays getting married. But in general the republicans tend to be more unified, at least thats how Fox news tells/spins it.

I guess that makes sense, because most Indian republicans are RINOs (Republican in name only) That is, they're rich doctors and benefit from Bush's tax cuts and loose malpractice laws, OR they're social conservative and don't want gays getting married. But in general the republicans tend to be more unified, at least thats how Fox news tells/spins it.

i guess stereotyping without caveats is OK if you disagree with someone politically, heh? here's one: most brown democrats are democrats because all they care about are their narrow sectarian political issues.

For the 1,893,275th time, thank you, Razib.

i guess stereotyping without caveats is OK if you disagree with someone politically, heh?

I guess I dont' see it as a stereotype, it's observed data. Most of the NBA is black, Most ice hockey fans are white, most Indians who identify themselves as republican do so for the above mentioned reasons.

heh? here's one: most brown democrats are democrats because all they care about are their narrow sectarian political issues.

But democrat and republican are political (and social to some degree) dilineations, when you call someone a dem or a rep you're pretty much confining the statement to their stance on "sectarian political issues" Especially in this context as it concerns electoral campaigns and such. Unless you use the term used above, RINO.

Most of the NBA is black, Most ice hockey fans are white, most Indians who identify themselves as republican do so for the above mentioned reasons

your analogy does not hold. you can confirm the preponderance of blacks or whites in a particular field by visual inspection. you can't judge what is someone's heart without asking them (unless you have mentalistic powers). i see little indication you are interesting asking as opposed to assuming.

btw, democrats just want to steal the money that other people make through their hard-work and would rather kill a baby than raise it :) why else would someone be a democrat?

your analogy does not hold. you can confirm the preponderance of blacks or whites in a particular field by visual inspection. you can't judge what is someone's heart without asking them (unless you have mentalistic powers). i see little indication you are interesting asking as opposed to assuming.

Why do you assume I haven't asked, or gleaned through discussion, or read opinions. First of all, what benefit do I get by even making such a stereotypical accusation in the first place?

btw, Reps would rather have the baby be born, grow up socially maladjusted, commit heinous crimes, receive the death penalty and then kill the "baby".... which makes much more logical sense right ? :0

your analogy does not hold. you can confirm the preponderance of blacks or whites in a particular field by visual inspection. you can't judge what is someone's heart without asking them (unless you have mentalistic powers). i see little indication you are interesting asking as opposed to assuming.

While he did sterotype, in my experience there is some truth to it, though i don't think its as thoroughly demarcated b/w social and fiscal conservatives. He forgot to add "teach the Muslims a lesson," which I heard a LOT of in 04.

HMF - i got your back son. But you need to be more elaborate in your posts, like we all do, lest they be parsed to shreds by fellow Mutineers - it's a tough crowd on here and so it should be!

Oh snap, i forgot what this thread was originally about - Mutineers, don't take all the credit for the buzz, DailyKos, CrooksAndLiars, MoveOn, etc. have also been pretty vigilant on this story from the getgo. Just signed homegirl Nita Chaudhary's petition at MoveOn....

I guess that makes sense, because most Indian republicans are RINOs (Republican in name only) That is, they're rich doctors and benefit from Bush's tax cuts and loose malpractice laws, OR they're social conservative and don't want gays getting married. But in general the republicans tend to be more unified, at least thats how Fox news tells/spins it.

You've got it darn straight that Indian Republicans are likely to be more educated, but they are just as likely to be software engineers, or technology people, whose job might vanish overseas as a result of outsourcing, as anything else. Not to mention journalists, business folks and other healthcare professionals, where globalization does have its effect. I find your stereotype of their stand on social issues mistaken, even misguided. In fact, I seriously doubt that there are many Indian Republicans who are in it because of _gay marriage_. To quote the noted political commentator and pundit Russell Peters (and I quote from memory), "we got bigger things to worry about. Like arranged marriage." To sum it up, as Razib points out, it is a principle thing.

Why do you assume I haven't asked, or gleaned through discussion, or read opinions.

because you opinions don't express any nuance or subtly. they may accurately describe a subset of brown republicans, but not the totallity of us (though i am pretty confirmed as a RINO at this point since i won't be voting republican for at least 2 years, and possibly longer). if you think that your assertions are accurate to a great degree, you simply haven't expanded your sample set sufficiently. and certainly the way you described those you do describe accurately is unflattering and somewhat inflammatory. so, it is clear you value sepia mutiny and want to elevate its tone and not make it into your own personal soapbox contingent upon your own biases and assumptions, all the while hand-wringing about the use of m. night's name in hollywood marketing.

While he did sterotype, in my experience there is some truth to it, though i don't think its as thoroughly demarcated b/w social and fiscal conservatives. He forgot to add "teach the Muslims a lesson," which I heard a LOT of in 04.

there's some truth in a lot of things, sure. i'm just saying, this is a forum we one has be really careful about stereotypes, because as brown americanz we are on the receiving end of a lot of that crap. this is predominantly a center-left blog in readership, that's for sure, but there are those of us who aren't center-left and sometimes i think it is important to give people a "reality check" as to that fact.

i think most of the republicans here have been supportive of the general anti-allen senitment. HMF thanks us for our principled opposition to anti-brown demogogery by listing off a series of unflattering intrepreations of the motives of republican brownz. thanks, we'll remember the love.

You've got it darn straight that Indian Republicans are likely to be more educated

This is a nice twist of my statement.

but they are just as likely to be software engineers, or technology people, whose job might vanish overseas as a result of outsourcing, as anything else.

But don't Reps as a party tend to support outsourcing, or at least seem conflicted about the entire issue, as outsourcing is a key profitmaker for big bidness? As for the social conservative, it's true, anti-gay marriage usually isn't the draw, (because socially/religious conservative Hindus tend to stay out of the political fray altogether)

You've got it darn straight that Indian Republicans are likely to be more educated
This is a nice twist of my statement.
You do have a point, but this is intended to be a caution against stereotyping. That's all.

but they are just as likely to be software engineers, or technology people, whose job might vanish overseas as a result of outsourcing, as anything else.

But don't Reps as a party tend to support outsourcing, or at least seem conflicted about the entire issue, as outsourcing is a key profitmaker for big bidness?
If somebody was an Indian, a Republican AND a software engineer or technology person, he has nothing to gain from the political stance and everything to lose because his job could be outsourced. I personally fall into the category, and I am a RINO too at this point. In my case, it is essentially about the long-term view. You know, every dollar that gets outsourced brings back $ 1.14, that sort of stuff, the economic principle of the thing.

"and certainly the way you described those you do describe accurately is unflattering and somewhat inflammatory. "

I'm sorry, did you say unflattering and inflammatory?

"so, it is clear you value sepia mutiny and want to elevate its tone and not make it into your own personal soapbox contingent upon your own biases and assumptions, all the while hand-wringing about the use of m. night's name in hollywood marketing."

If you feel that way, don't lodge the complaint to me, lodge it to those with the ability to do something about it. Maybe they keep me around because I give them (and perhaps, you) a good laugh. Maybe there's a contest to see who makaes more spelling and grammatical mistakes, me or you. There could be a host of reasons.

Great interview with our dear young SR Sidarth on Young Turks:

http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2006/8/16/201332/564

sidarth speaks on cnn:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gBuxjQAVEMY

well done abhi. seriously, movements, action, and grassroots organizing is what this country is all about. that was a wonderful breakdown.

What Apu_is_innocent said. This issue didn't catch fire because of desi Americans, it caught fire because it had a mainstream political angle, and the mainstream political blogs were all over it. My impression is that the Bombay bombings did not get this kind of play in the blogosphere.

most brown democrats are democrats because all they care about are their narrow sectarian political issues.

Most desis are dems because they're not stupid enough to vote for those who insult them to their face. And make that an explicit component of their nationwide electoral strategy.

most brown democrats are democrats because all they care about are their narrow sectarian political issues.

I thought it was because Indians still love the idea of lifetime government employment, and the Dems are all for more public sector hiring. Not to mention affirmative action aka reservations ;)

Not to mention affirmative action aka reservations ;)

I'm not exactly sure that affirmative action and reservations are synonymous.

I'm not exactly sure that affirmative action and reservations are synonymous.

Its comical to see some whites use affirmative action as a bogeyman for their personal failures while at the same time chastising Blacks for clinging on to racism as the reason for their failures. You would think that the sky has fallen down on some of these people and the law schools and medical schools are now full with negroes on affirmative action. I think thee African Americans consitute less than 10% of the student body at any top law/medical/business school and most of the other minorities are Asians and Internationals who dont get the benefit of affirmative action anyway. So whats the big fucking deal?

Its comical to see some whites use affirmative action as a bogeyman for their personal failures while at the same time chastising Blacks for clinging on to racism as the reason for their failures.

no, it's natural. i've known plenty of asians who are simply told they must have gotten into elite school x cuz they are minority. of course, these are loser whites, but affirmative action modern liberal thought on race holds that whites are the princes of the planet who take upon them the moral sins of hundreds of years of racialism.

So whats the big fucking deal?

if you let black med students in with lower GPAs & MCATs, yeah, no big fucking deal for most people since those docs will go back into black communities where their lower competancy is less important than the importance of a "face of color" with an M.D. and of course, the blacks who are competant simply face a life-long stigma. no worries.

no, it's natural. i've known plenty of asians who are simply told they must have gotten into elite school x cuz they are minority. of course, these are loser whites, but affirmative action modern liberal thought on race holds that whites are the princes of the planet who take upon them the moral sins of hundreds of years of racialism.

No it doesn't, it says living whites have clearly benefited from past crimes against humanity, while having no direct culpability in creating the power imbalance, are complicit in perpetuating such institutions and social practices, and only seek to change them, incrementally, when confronted by the disenfranchised in large massive movements. The majority of every generation of whites have collectively felt they were going "too far" to appease "negroes" and the black masses were too "uppity" (40 acres and a mule, 3/5ths compromise, reconstruction, separate but equal, voting rights act, were mostly done by whites - not out of any collective self-introspection, but rather to "keep them quiet") AA can be seen as just another incremental step.

As for "stigma" felt by those who feel they got ahead not solely through merit, how practical is that? Something like 80% of jobs are achieved through old boys networks, and legacy (like say, our President, who's by far the largest beneficiary of legacy AA in existence) I don't see 80% of the population feeling stigmatized, neither do I observe debilitating guilt coming from our Commander in chief.

but affirmative action modern liberal thought on race holds that whites are the princes of the planet who take upon them the moral sins of hundreds of years of racialism.

That’s not why I support affirmative action. I think we need affirmative action for blacks because it is good social policy. If slightly less academically accomplished blacks can get into schools, graduate and then move on to lead more productive lives, we will all be winners. We cannot have a permanent underclass of people in America. When I was in Law School, I knew some blacks who had obviously benefited from Affirmative Action, but none of them actually dropped out even if they did not end up at the top of the class. Of course I am not extrapolating anything from my personal experience, but I have not seen any data on affirmative action kids not being able to graduate from their respective programs.

but affirmative action modern liberal thought on race holds that whites are the princes of the planet who take upon them the moral sins of hundreds of years of racialism.

The above is a very silly caricature of the proponents of affirmative action.

If slightly less academically accomplished blacks can get into schools, graduate and then move on to lead more productive lives, we will all be winners.

depends on how you defend "slightly less academically accomplished." i don't count SAT or LSAT differences on the order of standard deviations and GPA differences that are 0.5ish between median values as "slightly less academically accomplished." but yeah, i don't care, as long as affirmative action remains limited to blacks.

We cannot have a permanent underclass of people in America.

over half of blacks are middle class, only 1/4 are underclass. guess what? the ones who are going to elite schools where LSAT, MCAT and GPAs matter are not coming, in general, from the 1/4 who are underclass (who are not likely to have graduated from high school quite often). affirmative action in elite schools is for the "talented tenth."

some data:

For example, at Michigan State University's College of Medicine in 1999, the median grade point average (GPA) for white admittees was 3.61, nearly an A-, while the median GPA for black admittees was 2.93, slightly below a B. Furthermore, the median MCAT score for blacks admitted to Michigan State that year was 29 (out of a possible 51 points) compared to 36 for whites.

These differences in admissions rates mirror the racial disparities in accomplishment on the first stage of the medical licensing exam. Scores from Michigan State averaged over a three year period show that 14% of black students failed the Step 1 of the exam, and 10% failed to take it, while among white students the failure rate was only 1% and the untested rate, 4%. Thus cumulatively, 24% of black medical students at Michigan State failed to complete the first stage of obtaining a medical license compared to only 5% of white students. Among Hispanics the combined rate was 8% and among Asians, 2%

like said, i don't care about affirmative action as long as it is limited to blacks. i'm willing to accept that accomplished blacks who can get a GPA above 3.0 will deal with the stigma. but let's not pretend that the numbers aren't what they are.

p.s. i guess the failure rate on the medical board test shows that the "system works." they're caught later on after taking on 200 K in loans :) (which they won't be able to pay back usually of course now that they can't become doctors).

over half of blacks are middle class, only 1/4 are underclass. guess what? the ones who are going to elite schools where LSAT, MCAT and GPAs matter are not coming, in general, from the 1/4 who are underclass (who are not likely to have graduated from high school quite often). affirmative action in elite schools is for the "talented tenth."

Fair enough. But the elite blacks have the ability to inspire and motivate the black underclass. If the American corporate boardrooms, judges and the senate had more blacks, it will go a long way in putting our racist history to rest. Look, I am aware of the fact that Tyrone is not going to stop dealing in crack tomorrow if there were 9 black Supreme Court justices, but if the upper echelons of the American society had more prominent blacks, it will go a long way in taking away the despair, hopelessness and the belief that the 'man' is keeping the blacks down.

Look, I am aware of the fact that Tyrone is not going to stop dealing in crack tomorrow if there were 9 black Supreme Court justices, but if the upper echelons of the American society had more prominent blacks, it will go a long way in taking away the despair, hopelessness and the belief that the 'man' is keeping the blacks down.

More importantly, it will create a society that offers a wide range of opportunity to all, and not limit a person or group into thinking their only way out is selling drugs, cutting a rap album, or becoming a pro athlete (not that those are synonymous)

Affirmative action can and is used by the Government and state schools at all levels. It is not restricted to Ivy League schools (all of which are private anyway and have their own affirmative action programs)
Maybe they need to extend money oriented affirmative action to black majority public schools in the inner cities.

This discussion reminds me of a lovely interview with the novelist Richard Ford quite some time ago, in which he talked a little bit about critics and literature specialists, and their clueless relationship to his work. He had an incisive barb for Christopher Hitchens that struck me when I first read it, and that's stayed with me ever since.

"To me it's kind of like a non-contact sport," he explains. "It's showing off, being the smartest one on the block. I've got a pretty good memory, and I read literature as food. I remember lines, specific poems. But I could never hope to have this Christopher Hitchens-like command, [people] who know everything, but fundamentally don't know jack shit - who have a heart basically made of coal. Literature hit me amidships. When I read Absalom Absalom - the first novel I ever read - it just took me over. In a way it left me with a reverence for literature which does not require an encyclopaedic knowledge. I read what I read really closely. People always know more than I do, but what I know I know."

"People who know everything, but fundamentally don't know jack shit." Essactly. He's talking about literature, not something else, but I've never seen the divide between "facts" and "wisdom" so lucidly laid out.

But the elite blacks have the ability to inspire and motivate the black underclass.

frankly, it seems the reverse. middle class blacks like "p-diddy" go downscale. but perhaps they are just fitting the stereotype? (you seemed to implicitly assume that blacks even at elite schools must have underclass origins, despite the underclass forming only 1/4 of blacks. this isn't the first time i've seen people make the equivalence between black & underclass. when conservatives do it is racism, when liberals do it, well, i don't know what it is)

but like i said, i'm cool with affirmative action for blacks. i don't think it'll do much, as it hasn't for the past generation. just don't extend to other groups :)

Mr Kobayashi, there's a difference between clever style and earnest substance.

and not limit a person or group into thinking their only way out is selling drugs, cutting a rap album, or becoming a pro athlete

let me repeat one more time: half of blacks are middle class. 1/4 tweeners & 1/4 underclass. the black underclass isn't an insulated endogamous caste.

but i'll stop with the numbers already, lest mr. kobayashi imply i don't know "jack shit." hard to keep up with his incisive fact-filled posts.

you seemed to implicitly assume that blacks even at elite schools must have underclass origins, despite the underclass forming only 1/4 of blacks. this isn't the first time i've seen people make the equivalence between black & underclass. when conservatives do it is racism, when liberals do it, well, i don't know what it is

What I was getting at is the ability of the blacks at elite schools to inspire the black underclass and was not insinuating that all blacks at elite schools are themselves from an underclass background. In my initial post, I was not only referring to affirmative action at elite programs but also talking about affirmative action in general at all levels for the African American population.

but like i said, i'm cool with affirmative action for blacks. i don't think it'll do much, as it hasn't for the past generation. just don't extend to other groups :)

I dont support affirmative action for other groups. There is no affirmative action for non black/hispanic minorities in most schools anyway. As I support the affirmative action more on the grounds of good current social policy to fight black poverty, I might in future support some form of affirmative action for maybe the Mexican American population though I am hoping that there would be no need for that.
IMO the affirmative action for blacks in the US has not gone far enough. Malaysia has gone from being a backwater rubber producing nation to a semi-industrialized modern economy because of affirmative action for the native Malays who are the majority of the population in Malaysia.

Where did you get the numbers on the black underclass being 1/4rth of the black population (they sound reasonable though) What are the numbers for the white underclass?
Maybe the white underclass is also pretty significant as a total percentage of the white population though I am not sure what are the parameters they have used to determine the size of the underclass.
Black poverty is so problematic for people like me because its in your face. I am sure there is devastating white poverty in WV and Alabama, but I dont really travel to those places and see that level of poverty. What I do see is Katrina and the inner cities in the all the major metropolitan areas.
There is also devastating poverty in Somalia but I dont spend much time worrying about it.

Malaysia has gone from being a backwater rubber producing nation to a semi-industrialized modern economy because of affirmative action for the native Malays who are the majority of the population in Malaysia.

no, i doubt it. singapore has done the same thing (to a far greater extent GDP wise) without much affirmative action for its malay minority. thailand has grown without much affirmative action for its thai non-chinese majority (there is a lot of intermarriage in thailand so this might be impossible). mahathir mohammed believed that malays were genetically less hard-working because of historically lower population densities (a view exposited in a book in the early 1970s which got him into a lot of trouble), and that the chinese had an unfair advantage (the chinese here meant fujianese and hakka who already have a rep. of squeezing the most from nothing in china proper). the NEP exists to make sure that the sons of the soil don't get dispossessed in their own country and that the country isn't wracked by civil war. they're still poorer, concentrated in the public sector (e.g., consider that the ratio of engineering degrees awarded to chinese vs. malays is lopsided, many malays get degrees in "islamic studies"). mahathir was asked whether the fact that many companies had "malay fronts" (you need a malay partner in larger businesses from what i gather) was a drag on the economy, and he said perhaps (these "front men" are of course always drawn from the malay aristocracy and upper middle class, not the peasantry), but poor malays needed to see that some malays got rich too.

but, if i want to address the bigger picture, it shows that the malay model of gov. mandated set-asides for underperforming majorities is better in the long term than the indoensian model of lasseiz faire and parasitism between the javanese elite and the chinese business class. though the chinese don't have to deal with the hassle of the drag of a token business partner and what not, they also get pogromed periodically, which hasn't happened in malaysia since the late 1960s. but anyway, your causal connection is almost certainly wrong, the point of comparison should be all the east tigers, not just malaysia. they've all risen from the 1960s.

(p.s., indians once had higher SES than malays, but were outstripped. they aren't sons-of-soil, so no benefits for them!)

Where did you get the numbers on the black underclass being 1/4rth of the black population (they sound reasonable though) What are the numbers for the white underclass?

its a number i see quoted in the black conservative literature, but i'm pretty sure it is contingent upon "poverty for family of four." i do believe that the white poor are a smaller %, perhaps like 10% of whites, but, that means that the majority of poor in this nation are still white.

poverty statistics (census). 24% of blacks are in poverty.

George Felix Allen's "blog". Funny, though I am sure his people will soon have it pulled down.

its a number i see quoted in the black conservative literature, but i'm pretty sure it is contingent upon "poverty for family of four." i do believe that the white poor are a smaller %, perhaps like 10% of whites, but, that means that the majority of poor in this nation are still white.

10% seems about right. I think most people realize that there are a lot of poor white people. No one is in his right mind will think that there are more poor black people than poor white people in total. I am actually surprised that the black underclass is only 1/4rth though. The rate of black single moms, black men with criminal records, home ownership as a percentage, college education is much much higher to similar numbers as a percentage for white people.

Black poverty is so problematic for people like me because its in your face.

true. the problem is the correlation between race and poverty and low academic achievement. that's why HMF's rambling about white privilege isn't that relevant, you can't pick a legacy out in the crowd by sight alone. that's why i'm addressing the issue of black stigma. it isn't like the large average differences in entrance requirements are a secret. but who cares? i don't anymore. black professionals who don't want the stigma should just do something with their hair (straighten or shave it) and say they are dark skinned indians :)

The rate of black single moms, black men with criminal records, home ownership as a percentage, college education is much much higher to similar numbers as a percentage for white people.

well, for example, black singles moms, i believe that the regression (ie, expectation(single mom) = Y(college)) is diff. for blacks and whites. many college educated black women are single moms. there is a cultural difference in how acceptable/normal this is.

Poor whites didn't suffer the type of discrimination blacks did.

Like it or not, we are judged by our imputed collectivities, and I believe there is a bias against blacks in this country, though political correctness has had the effect of nearly eliminating anti-black public discourse.

Those blacks who passed their medical boards are qualified, and helped create the black middle class.

I would also support AA for Mexican Americans. The browning of this country will attenuate the already waning majoritarianism, and national integration is at stake.

Or everyone left out can riot and make things very interesting. The level of inequality in this country is rising fast.

Tick tock...

Those blacks who passed their medical boards are qualified, and helped create the black middle class.

if they passed their medical boards they probably didn't need affirmative action. a black middle class did exist before affirmative action.

I would also support AA for Mexican Americans. The browning of this country will attenuate the already waning majoritarianism, and national integration is at stake.

affirmative action impedes integration by placing people into collective boxes. this country doesn't need to get any browner. there's enough segregation and "community consciousness" as it is. the majority needs to absorb the minority.

in any case, ignore my assertions. my premises are so deviated from the consensus on this blog any reasonable dialogue probably isn't possible. later.

and not limit a person or group into thinking their only way out is selling drugs, cutting a rap album, or becoming a pro athlete

let me repeat one more time: half of blacks are middle class. 1/4 tweeners & 1/4 underclass. the black underclass isn't an insulated endogamous caste.

Being in the middle class does not alleviate one from falling victim to mainstream perceptions. An african american senior systems engineer with 10 years in my old company, would every now and then get mistaken for a janitor. No joke. To think societies proclivity for pigeonholing black males in particular, into entertainment, professional athletes and narcotic trafficking only applies to the underclass is incorrect. although it's heightened. Believe me, a black doctor, engineer is continually being questioned and second guessed all the same - by the same people who love Michael Jordan, Eddie Murphy, et all... (why wouldn't they question these people in their respective functions in society with the same fervor?)

in any case, ignore my assertions. my premises are so deviated from the consensus on this blog any reasonable dialogue probably isn't possible. later.

...and yet, for many, this space isn't "progressive" enough.

"Believe me, a black doctor, engineer is continually being questioned and second guessed all the same - by the same people who love Michael Jordan, Eddie Murphy, et all... "
What does loving Michael Jordan or Eddie Murphy have to do with trusting engineers and doctors? Those guys are entertainment. There is no sweat involved in "loving" them.
Far as the professionals you refer to, razib-the-atheist gave a pretty good analysis of why this unfair state of affairs will continue. Whatever good affirmative action does for blacks, increasing professional trust isn't one of them. Some black academics in the sciences make their scholastic records public so it will be known that their position was earned through intellectual merit, and it's kind of sad they feel compelled to do that.

When it comes to life and death matters, while I'd go with recommendations, I tend to choose Indian doctors when I can, partly for the comfort level, partly because I know they had to have been pretty good to succeed. Or maybe Jewish as long as they don't have bigoted relatives in Virginia.

What does loving Michael Jordan or Eddie Murphy have to do with trusting engineers and doctors? Those guys are entertainment. There is no sweat involved in "loving" them.

That's kind of my point, I was being sarcastic and rhetorical with the question. There exist internalized biases that prevent white majorities to see black people properly functioning as anything other than frivolous entertainment pieces, Imagine the psychological tennis a white person in the 60s had to play with himself, when going to see Ray Charles in a packed Georgia dome or wherever, and feeling entranced by that "black music" all the while disgusted that his kids might one day attend the same school as Ray's kids.

not being a white 60s concert goer, I can't answer that. Anyway, to judge from my friend's mom's description of Beatles, Stones, and Jimi Hendrix performances, they were "entranced" by a whole lot of things back then, but its the 21st century now. People I've talked about this stuff with, few people, other than rabid segregationists in the south were freaked by a few blacks in their kids' schools because the blacks were often from exceptional families anyway. As razib the atheist mentioned, middle class blacks in the north were not subject to official LEGAL discrimination in the 40s and 50s and were usually well treated in schools and jobs because the whites wanted to show how tolerant they were, maybe the influence of Eleanor Roosevelt, proto-liberal according to one of my teachers. Another friend's dad was a technician (black) at NASA in 50s and 60s. He didn't have much to say about bad treatment though he felt he could go only so far. Back then, though, blacks who got in had to do it on merit, and he admitted he was proud of himself. Yeah, I expect he got the surprised looks sometimes, but that can happen to others: females of any race get that too in science, and a Chinese guy would have to go a long way to prove himself on the football field no matter how big and skilled he was.
As far as the schools go, I guess it's a matter of percentages. Above a certain percentage of AAs, the schools change drastically and whites split. I think razib the atheist is right about the non-wisdom extending affirmative action to Hispancs. You're pretty much asking the non-recipients of affirmative action--including us Asians because I am an American citizen--to hang themselves after paying for the noose. I mean that could be 80% of the population of Mexico if they had their way. You want to send people deeper into their ethnic cells, do that. Most people accept that some allowance has to be made for blacks who were brought here by force, and really did go through a long era of limited opportunity. But Hispanics? It would be more cost-effective to pay them to stay where they are though I don't know why the hell my taxes should go for it.

not being a white 60s concert goer, I can't answer that.

That's why I used the word 'imagine'

As razib the atheist mentioned, middle class blacks in the north were not subject to official LEGAL discrimination in the 40s and 50s and were usually well treated in schools and jobs because the whites wanted to show how tolerant they were, maybe the influence of Eleanor Roosevelt, proto-liberal according to one of my teachers.

Brown v Board of education was passed in 1954. That means blacks all around were barred from entering white schools earlier, if the 14th amendment was authentic, such an act wouldn't even be necessary. Your implied contention that everything was honky dory for blacks in the north during the 1940's and 50s is laughable at best and an Orwellian rewriting of history at worst.

females of any race get that too in science, and a Chinese guy would have to go a long way to prove himself on the football field no matter how big and skilled he was.

If you don't think there is a systematic residual belief that regards blacks as general miscreants, in a large scale "civilizational" sense, I feel you are gravely mistaken. It's to counteract these systemic beliefs that programs like AA are implemented, and have made very little dent. Whites still control a disproportionate amount of top positions, etc.. etc.. AA isn't the big boogey monster most whites, and sorry to say, asians and south asians make it out to be.

for the love of Shiva, who said I thought "everything was hunky dory for blacks in the 1950s".
Har har. In the federal agency where I work it is hard to find a white face in the hallways or a budget in the black. Browns are sort of tolerated.
There is money to be made in keeping that victim status going as long as possible. A lot of careers hang on it.
Desis take care of themselves well enough but I do shudder at some of the Asians who try to jump that gravy train.
Like razib atheist I don't care about affirmative action as long as it is restricted to blacks. It ruins any hope of sincerely felt respect for professional blacks in general, but it does give more blacks the chance to say they graduated from schools that whites pretty much created for themselves, fars I can see. South Asians and East Asians earn respect because they don't ask for special treatment--they beat the white man at his own game often enough.

who said I thought "everything was hunky dory for blacks in the 1950s".

When one makes statements like "Blacks were not legally discriminated etc... " the implied contention is they faced no barriers from then on.

Like razib atheist I don't care about affirmative action as long as it is restricted to blacks

I get it. You like the guy. AA should be used wherever people have faced and continue to face barriers.

It ruins any hope of sincerely felt respect for professional blacks in general,

And herein lies the irony, if there was no programs such as AA, blacks and disenfranchised people would not be given chances (because of already pre-existing, systemic biases) to prove themselves and gain the respect you so wish for them to have. And when programs such as AA are implemented, you so easily flip the script and say "Well these programs demean them because they give them special privelages and prevent them respect for hard work, achievement"

HM: Do you ever have an original thought on this subject? You sound like a screed from the a 1970s liberal rag in my old sociology textbook.
Nobody is stopping them from achieving. If anyone is found doing that, arrest them and lock them up.
At this point the ball is in their court. How can anybody acquit themselves of charges of "systemic bias"? The losers make the rules in this situation. If any group (your pick) continues to perform below the norm no matter what the advantages offered them, are the higher achievers supposed to continue to feel guilty about it? Some of my ancestors in India were real turds in the hole from what I understand, but I don't lose any sleep or any money over it. That was them.
The sands of residual white guilt are fast running out and people sort of know this. A lot of desis are actually in America for reasons not a million miles removed from affirmative action. I think you know what I'm talking about. Do you feel guilty about stuff your ancestors did there?
More money is spent on education here in my town, 80% black, than almost anywhere else in the country. They still have very poor performance.
People have more opportunities than ever before in history, either in their countries of origin or elsewhere, and its still whah whah whah. I wasn't brought up that way and neither were my desis I know, but there is a danger of falling into that.
Affirmative Action here or in India, is a bizarre and well intentioned departure from the norm of human behavior, but don't push it beyond its original intent. What's the answer? All you can spout is more party line HM. Amy Chu's "World on Fire" sort of concludes, "Answer? no answer. Everybody's out for themselves and the more different peoples come into contact with each other, the more conflict, with a certain element of intellectuals relating pretty well across cultural racial divides. The future "world power"? My money is on the Chinese
and to them "affirmative action" means Chinese.

Razib,
in any case, ignore my assertions. my premises are so deviated from the consensus on this blog any reasonable dialogue probably isn't possible. later.

I personally think you are right on the money on this. I enjoy reading your comments. And I respect your argument by numbers approach. I think an affirmative action program based on the [race, income level] tuple would make a lot more sense, and might in fact actually work, rather than one solely based on race. Finally, I think there might be a second (read conservative) consensus on the blog as well.

None of this is probably new to you, but I believe that a very similar problem with the system of "reservations" exists in India. The people who benefit from this in the case of education are mostly those who are in the middle class. This is because the ratio of number of seats to the number of people is very low, so you are virtually guaranteed that a person could feasibly make it into the elite institutions only if he/se had the appropriate educational oppportunities. This problem gets magnified in government jobs because it means that those who get "reservation" have a faster career track because the effect simply multiplies. If you are the only scheduled caste person at a certain level (and there are not many at the higher levels), you are obviously going to get that promotion as long as you meet all the other criteria.

However, I also think that there is certainly a problem in that if you are poor AND of a scheduled caste (same as if you are poor AND black), then it is much more difficult than if you are only one of the two (or, of course, neither). (With the current system, if you are poor AND underprivileged, you are probably WORSE off because the number of positions open to you has gone DOWN since "reservation" does take away a certain fraction of seats.) It is not surprising that there is a movement among the OBCs to get reservation. Many years have gone by and they have not seen any of the benefits of reservation. In fact, only a net loss.

Do you ever have an original thought on this subject?

see y i withdrew from the discussion? wutz the point in engaging a bot?

Do you ever have an original thought on this subject? You sound like a screed from the a 1970s liberal rag in my old sociology textbook.

Must be an informative rag.

Nobody is stopping them from achieving. If anyone is found doing that, arrest them and lock them up.

Unless of course, the people in charge of arresting are the ones stopping them from achieving.

The sands of residual white guilt are fast running out and people sort of know this. A lot of desis are actually in America for reasons not a million miles removed from affirmative action.

Actually I have no clue what you're talking about. Please elaborate. By actually calling it "white guilt" it's clear you haven't a single clue as to what I've been talking about. There is a world of difference between guilt and responsibility.

Everybody's out for themselves and the more different peoples come into contact with each other, the more conflict, with a certain element of intellectuals relating pretty well across cultural racial divides. The future "world power"? My money is on the Chinese and to them "affirmative action" means Chinese.

If there is a point to this sentence sequence, I'd like to know it.

see y i withdrew from the discussion? wutz the point in engaging a bot?

ZX421-13 Error in parsing text. System reboot.

HMF:

How about political compromise, which by definition will displease both sides. We keep affirmative action (the lowering standards type) but restrict it only to african americans (and perhaps native americans) as a recognition of their special circustance (ie, being victims of government enforced discrimination). We can even throw in a provision that says the federal governemt will withhold funds to any university that gives preference to legacies. That should help even the playing field.

As far as other under-performing individuals whose ancestors did not arrive on slave ships, we can focus on programs (like school choice) that aim at early childhood intervention by helping the so called "shackled runner" run faster rather than shortening the track.

Both sides issues are (imperfectly) addressed.

How about political compromise, which by definition will displease both sides. We keep affirmative action (the lowering standards type) but restrict it only to african americans (and perhaps native americans) as a recognition of their special circustance (ie, being victims of government enforced discrimination). We can even throw in a provision that says the federal governemt will withhold funds to any university that gives preference to legacies. That should help even the playing field.

I would add an economic criterion to any affirmative action program, since otherwise, over time, the program tends to lose focus.

We have the bizarre example of Tamil Nadu in India where 69% of the seats are reserved, which means that with the law, which has been in effect for more than a decade. With this, they made it more than 3 times harder for somebody who was poor and underprivileged to get into a college than before.

I would add an economic criterion to any affirmative action program, since otherwise, over time, the program tends to lose focus.

won't work if you add an economic criterion. look at HMF's comments above, they do have a grain of truth in connecting the black middle class to affirmative action. personally, i think something approaching a black middle class (though smaller) would exist without affirmative action, but the reality is that the main supporters of AA are middle class and they want their kids to keep it. set asides from contracts, schools, gov. jobs, moral suasion through corporate jobs (and the threat of lawsuits) are not something that low income blacks really are normally affected by.

so restrict it to blacks & native americans so as to keep their non-poor classes happy. cynical, but at least it will keep the contagion restricted. as long as HMOs don't force you to have a black doctor the stigma won't affect you.

"see y i withdrew from the discussion? wutz the point in engaging a bot?"

yes, now I do. sigh.

Manju:

Absolutely, I acquiesce that AA is by no means a panacea. But quoting single studies about "Well, such and such people who had 10% less performance on test scores while such and such had 4% higher" etc.. etc.. ignores larger macroscopic issues, such as widespread institutional biases, and internalized inferority. In fact, many studies have been done to show that when tests are administered where it doesn't "count" per say, sort of an academic scrimmage match if you will, racial differences in performance are negligible.

What this tells us is not that one group is inherently underperforming exclusively, rather could be inflicted by deep seated feelings of self-depradation (which I agree, is not solely for the "oppressor" to correct)

A simple, but very telling example is from one of MLK's speeches (for you conservatives out there, he's the "content of your character" guy), where he shows the dictionary as having 18 second tier definitions for the word black, all with negative connotations- and says every day black children in school have 18 reasons to put themselves down. Ignoring this history, and blindly quoting studies made in the present could be problematic.

won't work if you add an economic criterion.

The economic criterion would be a curve. Some seats would only be open if you are poor AND underprivileged. Some seats would be open even if you are just unerprivileged.

they do have a grain of truth in connecting the black middle class to affirmative action, personally, i think something approaching a black middle class (though smaller) would exist without affirmative action

Yes, but it is not true that the black middle class would not have existed without affirmative action. Check out the wikipedia entry on Affirmative Action :

What about the notion that affirmative action has helped blacks rise out of poverty? The black poverty rate was cut in half before affirmative action — and has barely changed since then.

I have seen more than one scholar argue for economic considerations to be added.

As an African-American male, I should add however, despite that AA(Affirmative Action) "benefits" blacks and Latinos, the largest recipients/beneficiaries of AA ironically are white...actually white women. Affimative Action helps or benefits (racial) minorities and women. Doesn't say what race of women, but women in general. And just by coincidence, white females make the majority of the female population in America. So go figure.

"Affimative Action helps or benefits (racial) minorities and women."
You may be right about that, but the academic/professional qualifications require much less compromise with regard to white/Asian females, unless you are talking about the hard sciences. In law and business, women don't really need special consideration to be considered qualified since their academic records are usually competitive for the kinds of jobs they seek. However, it's easier to find qualified white/Asian females for filling quotas, than blacks of either gender. I think that's one reason why it is still extended to them, because I don't think they really need it anymore.

Subodh,

Awed by your op-ed but even more by your parenting philosophy and your children's names.

I quoted from your comments here on SM on my blog--hope that's ok. It'll be such a nice surprise for the four other people who read my blog to encounter something other than my prattle :)

All the very best as your and your family shoulder the hopes of the rest of us.

Subodh,

So awed by your op-ed but even more by your parenting philosophy and your children's names.

I quoted from your comments here on SM on my blog--hope that's ok. It'll be such a nice surprise for the four other people who read my blog to encounter something other than my prattle :)

All the very best as your and your family shoulder the hopes of many of us.