Since the London bombings of July 7, 2005, conventional wisdom has held that when it comes to racial integration, Britain has botched it, and that our long-standing policy of promoting multiculturalism has kept us from sustaining a common, over-arching culture and national identity toward which different races and religions can feel loyal. Today it is widely accepted that there has been a trade-off between the promotion of diversity and the nation’s social cohesiveness.

Over-arching culture? Diversity will never work, at least not for long. People will sooner or later come to adopt a monoculture. It just does not work very well. With me, it is always family and tribe first. Talk about cohesiveness! If the tribe on which the nation-state was founded is not that to which tribe I belong, I cannot feel terribly much loyalty toward it. Speaking of national identity, I do not feel particularly "American", but rather much more like the "Other". But this isn't a real problem for me, as I am not demanding that I be loved, only tolerated. I have no affiliative feeling toward other Americans, especially toward those whose ancestors fought for independence or those who support this land with unblinking patriotism. This is how I feel toward my fellow americans in general; not loyal but rather indifferent. And it would take much more of a threat than average to get me to actually raise a trigger finger for Amerikka. I am certainly not a very "cohesive" element in the land. Cool?

apples & oranges. i think juxtaposing 7/7 with the emergent brown macroculture in the arts is trivializing the former and devaluing the specific contributions of the latter as art rather than part of some broader theme. one can assert that the assimilation of british muslims, or at least the pacification (civilization?) of british muslims has been an abject failure (i count something like 7/7 as evidence of abject failure), while noting that broad diverse strands of hybrid and multilayered cultural complexes arise. and yes, one must not forget to distinguish between the more low-key and less tense integration of non-muslim asians vs. muslim ones. this is a real divergence which sheds light on the subtlies inherent in the "multicultural dilemna."

low-key and less tense integration of non-muslim asians vs. muslim ones.

razib, do you know what the intermarriage rates are (i.e., intermarriage w/ ethnic english, whites, etc) for non-moslem asians vs. moslem ones? Any available stats on UK intermarriage in general?

razib, do you know what the intermarriage rates are (i.e., intermarriage w/ ethnic english, whites, etc) for non-moslem asians vs. moslem ones? Any available stats on UK intermarriage in general?

1) not offhand

2) but yes, the UK census site has them. i recall that banlgadeshis and pakistanis had VERY low intermarriage rates. black males had high ones. hindus & sikhs were low, though not as low as bangladehis and pakistanis. but this is a qualitative sense (except i recall that more than half of black males were married or cohabitating with white females).

Surveys after surveys have shown that Indian Hindus are much more integrated in British Society than Pakistani Muslims by a large distance.

Anyone know how significant a portion of the UK Pakistani population are actually ethnic Pukhtuns, not Punjabis, Sindhis, etc. I don't even know what the figures are for American Pakistanis. Were any of the recent plot suspects Pakhtuns for sure?

Razib

I too recall reading somehwere that black males had 50% intermarriage rates with whites. But for a black man, it is about being socially upward, the cliched ultimate status symbol - a white girlfriend or wife.

For desis, it is something else...Here in the US, the rates of marriage is increasing , especially about desis born and brought up here.

razib, thanks for that info. These blacks with high intermarriage rates are caribbean islanders, not people like Nigerians or Somalian blacks, I am going to assume.

But for a black man, it is about being socially upward, the cliched ultimate status symbol - a white girlfriend or wife

I think it's more about UK white women being "hot", as it were, for afro-caribbean males.

Here in the US, the rates of marriage is increasing , especially about desis born and brought up here.

estimates vary from 20-40% depending on who you listen to for those born & raised in the USA (or 1.5). sex ratio is balanced (that is brown is hittin' and *cringe* being hit).

prope//er, how do know the incident was "racist"? It may not have been.

Also. "South Asian" is a convenient description; no need to be more specific. For example, when I hear E Asian, I think pacific rim nations and so on; when I hear "South Asian", I know what communities are being referred to, etc.

Please don't bother responding to propellars commments since they will be deleted anyway. Thanks.

The "Post 9/11 blues" song mentioned in the article is available on YouTube, very funny:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKTsJpfC0IQ&eurl

I will be curious to read the reactions from our UK contingent to this article, as well as from everyone else.

I think the writer makes some assumptions about younger desis' motivations regarding their "aggressive" behaviour, although it may be true in some quarters. I'm 33 so obviously I can't speak for British desis a decade younger than me, of course, and my own experiences are defined by my own (South) Asian social circles, which these days are pretty far removed from any kind of bhangramuffin stereotype.

there are of course differences between the experiences of British Pakistani youth and British Indian youth.

This is probably the most important point. What constitutes "British Asian" culture in 2006 is dominated by the (Indian) Punjabi influence, obviously fused with Western (especially American) influences. Although the (Indian) Punjabi factor has always been dominant ever since a homegrown 2nd-generation Brit desi culture developed (taking off from the early 90s onwards), Pakistanis tended to enthusiastically join in too, except for the most conservative types. I would say that the gulf (to some extent) between the two groups has escalated post-9/11. It seems to be a growing problem, although of course there are plenty of younger Pakistanis here who are more westernised/liberal and integrated than their more orthodox co-religionists.

Anyone know how significant a portion of the UK Pakistani population are actually ethnic Pukhtuns, not Punjabis, Sindhis, etc.

I can't quote specific figures but the percentage of Pakhtuns is comparatively small.

Surveys after surveys have shown that Indian Hindus are much more integrated in British Society than Pakistani Muslims by a large distance.

Sikhs too, obviously. The majority of British Indian Punjabis are Sikhs, although there is a sizeable minority of Hindu Punjabis here too.

**********************

R.K. Khan's mindset, as indicated by post #1 on this thread, is a fundamental cause of the problem in the UK. It's endemic amongst older desis here of all religious backgrounds, but since Muslims are the most conservative group, it's particularly pronounced amongst them and contributes to the problems they have integrating successfully into British society. When 2nd-generation British Pakistanis are continuously exposed to that attitude from elders etc and consciously/subconsciously emulate it, it's a major contributor to the problems we see today and causes both alienation and disdain (some would even say "disgust") towards the mainstream society and culture, especially in issues regarding "morality".

I am a mixed South Asian-American (White/Sri Lankan Tamil) who has been living in London for the past year and I attended the London Mela last weekend. I am certainly not qualified to speak on the assimilation/integration of Muslim/non-Muslim South Asians in the UK, etc, but I just wanted to add a personal comment.

Attending the Mela was one of the most positive experiences I have had in London, and, more broadly, within South Asian communities in the West. In the States--in situations ranging from years of Bharata Natyam lessons to attempts at participation in Desi student groups--I have consistently felt alienated, ignored, and, at worst, downright unwelcome. At the Mela, while it was certainly dominated by an Indian/Punjabi influence as Jai noted, I felt, for once, included within the Desi youth culture. The Mela was attended by a wide variety South Asians (Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, inter-racial families, etc) and where else would someone of Sri Lankan heritage (Nihal) be of the most popular DJs of “desi beats,” cheered on by “British Asians” of all possible ethnic/national ancestry and immigration status?

RK Khan

I took a look at your blog and the first thing I read made me think that you are a parody of a certain kind of attitude and mindset. Rooting around and looking at your contributions here, I begin to think you're not. So I re-read your post, this one:

Here's another example of what I was referring to in the former. It is a the advertisment for a damnable porn video. Now Desi ladies want to behave as american or UK trollops? 5,000 lashes is sufficient. Women should absolutely be in burqas unless in the home and with close family. I don't care what caste they're from -- these women are just scum that will one day be toasting and roasting in that place where bad people eventually go. Oh, I'm sure you know. I'm being stricken by headache and angina I'm so fuckin' appalled by this. I think that I will take my scimitar to my punching bag. Damned Desis blackening women.

You see, I detest you, and people like you, for your viciousness, backwardness, sadism, hatred, bigotry, misogyny, violence. You represent the worst of all things.

Gautam Malkani, however, represents the best of all things from amongst the British Desi people. Young, articulate, successful, magnanimous, socially aware, with a desire to tell tales and stories.

One of the more vibrant parts of the British desi culture is the musical talents that were on display at the London mela. Not just bhangra, but all sorts of genres and styles, from experimental stuff, to 'Asian Underground' to Nitin Sawhney, to Cornershop, it's all so diverse and great. They also represent the best in the spirit of British Desis, exciting, a desire to create a culture and space for themselves, something unique and tolerant and non tribal and inclusive and celebratory.

Razib, you make some good points in post # 2. But at the same time, there is no harm in pointing out the positive spontaneous cultural representations of Asian life in Britain.

The gap between Indians and Pakistanis in terms of integration and acculturation in the wider society is worrying though. Even on an anecdotal grassroots level, there is an embrace of the possibilities of British society amongst Hindus and Sikhs that is less noticeable, although not invisible, amongst Pakistanis. Most of the British desi musicians are from Hindu or Sikh backgrounds, for example. These are generalisations, but there is some truth in the anecdotal observation.

Looks like with R. K. Khan we have the muslim relative of SpoorLam. His comments and blog demonstrate a straightforward islamist agenda, cloaked within the convenient use of terms like "equality", "justice" etc.

So I am not going to waste any time on him. I am puzzled by the use of "south asian" in this article. While I realize that immigrants from the indian sub-continent share some challenges integrating into the UK, I dont believe it is "south asians" who are blowing up trains, obsessed about israel etc. I am afraid this is yet another example of PC-ness run amok.

Ban RK Khan. We don't need backward, ignorant, hateful, medieval people like him. Better still, put him in a burqa and order 1000 lashes.

Much has been made of the culturally alienated British Pakistanis, especially post-9/11. I don't know how assimilated they really were in Britain pre-9/11. Perhaps 9/11 and Islamic fundamentalism have nothing to do with the cultural insularity of Pakistani immigrants.

Pakistani immigrants, at least in the US and perhaps in Britain as well, come from much more diverse economic and sociocultural backgrounds than do Indians. In other words, it is harder for a poor and uneducated cab driving immigrant to become mainstreamed in his new country than it is for an IIT-alumnus working for Microsoft. If you go to the South Asian ghettos in the major North American cities, you will find culturally alienated Hindus as well, and living next door to culturally alienated Pakistanis. What is common between them is not religion obviously but their socioeconomic backgrounds.

Speaking of South Asians' ability to integrate with the western culture, I am told that history is on the side of the muslims. With fewer religious and dietary taboos than Hindus, and of course certain religious commonalities with Christianity and Judaism, they had a higher comfort level with the white colonizers than did the Hindus. Of course, the new fundamentalism in Islam recognizes no such commonality, but what percentage of South Asian muslims living in Britain and UK can be fairly labeled fundamentalists?

I am as Hindu as the next guy standing in line for "aarti" at the temple, but I find the muslim diaspora very inadequately researched by so-called journalists. Journalism has to sell itself like any enterprise. It is easier to sell a story on 22 muslims planning a terrorist attack than 10,000 muslims going about their usual business of going to work, making mortgage payments, worrying about their children's education and hoping for that year-end bonus. And obviously, it is intellectually easier to explain everything about the muslim diaspora through the default of Islamic fundamentalism rather than search for other possible socio-cultural explanations.

Good article by Malkani. Thanks Siddhartha. So how do we account for this kind of successful multiculturalism in a society that has arguably been more segregated (all desi neighbourhoods)? Malkani says

And although it’s an alternative to the dominant culture, desi beats isn’t even a proper counterculture: its currency of cool is consumerism.

On the terraces, white-skinned English fans donned fake beards and patkas (small turbans) to cheer on Panesar. And although some British Pakistanis heckled Mahmood for supposedly

Ban RK Khan. We don't need backward, ignorant, hateful, medieval people like him. Better still, put him in a burqa and order 1000 lashes.

As long as RK Khan doesn't leave any more garbage on THIS site we won't ban him. The blogosphere is about free speech. What a person does or says on their own blog doesn't concern us (unless it relates to us). What they say in this space is what matters to us. Despite what some people assume we don't make a decision to ban a person lightly.

I am as Hindu as the next guy standing in line for "aarti" at the temple, but I find the muslim diaspora very inadequately researched by so-called journalists. Journalism has to sell itself like any enterprise. It is easier to sell a story on 22 muslims planning a terrorist attack than 10,000 muslims going about their usual business of going to work, making mortgage payments, worrying about their children's education and hoping for that year-end bonus. And obviously, it is intellectually easier to explain everything about the muslim diaspora through the default of Islamic fundamentalism rather than search for other possible socio-cultural explanations.

Floridian, for the journalists and media, good news is no news, as the saying goes!

The administrator is to be applauded for not banning RK Khan. RK's comments, on this site, were not objectionable.

Chandi, I like your use of the term "voguish" to describe desi culture. To a great extent, ethnicity by its definition means alternative, non-mainstreamed and voguish - even in India. The Bengali community in Delhi, the Tamils in Bengal, the Gujaratis in Bihar - all examples of ethnicity.

And obviously, it is intellectually easier to explain everything about the muslim diaspora through the default of Islamic fundamentalism rather than search for other possible socio-cultural explanations.

I agree with you about the need to not view Muslims solely through the prism of fundamentalism 100%. Muslim's feel helpless precisely because the fundamentalists have set the agenda and taken control of their narrative. If there were not extremists in England, the Muslim community would still have issues, but on the whole, the picture would not be so bad, and the voices of progressive Muslim achievment would have been more visible.

But in the matter of the actual fundamentalists, 'other possible socio-cultural explanations' always hit roadblocks. The depth of fundamentalism amongst middle class, prosperous, rich and educated individuals is noticeable by looking at the background of those involved in jihadi activity. The fact that socio-economic factors amongst mainstream Muslims and other non white Britons who face similar issues of discrimination does not lead them to organised far-right violent militancy is another. Ultimately, it is part of the same story. When 99% of Muslims just struggle hard to pay the mortgage and contribute to society despite whatever they face, ceding ground to the fundamentalists is another example of denying mainstream Muslims control of their narrative.

"The fact that socio-economic factors amongst mainstream Muslims and other non white Britons who face similar issues of discrimination does not lead them to organised far-right violent militancy is another."

There are a lot of historical and current parallels to the Islamic fundamentalism story. Remember the history of the Mafia? The uneducated Italian youth, discriminated by the WASP society, finds refuge in gangs and before you know it, an underground society called the Mafia is formed. Whether the sactuary is called "Our Thing" or jihad matters little. The root cause is not the Koran, nor the misinterpretation of Koran, but socio-economic factors. I recently read an article in Time attempting to explain why the muslims in the US are far less violence prone than muslims in Europe. The reasons offered were the greater inclusiveness of the US society, better economic opportunities and so on.

What concerns me about the Islamic universe is not so much fundamentalism per se but the social factors that would always incubate fundamentalism, regardless of geography or religion. Of course there is always the "chicken or the egg" dilemma, and if the writer of "The Trouble with Islam" is to be believed, there is indeed something in Islam that fosters fundamentalism. But didn't we use to say the same thing about Communism? There was something in their agenda that made them want to go out and communize other countries. As it turned out, that except for the guys in the Kremlin, there really were no communists in the former USSR - only a few hundred million people subsisting on potato, rotting meat and vodka.

I think one thing that doesn't get enough attention (or accolade) is that this whole 'desi beats' or 'UK bhangra' scene is largely the product and cultural expression of British-born Sikhs, period. Although there have been (minor) contributions from other groups (and of course the fans of this scene hail from all groups), the British Sikhs have created a thriving culture of their own in the UK that dates back to the late 70s/early 80s, when bands that became popular performing at weddings started releasing albums and developed a fan following. This culture is rooted in village Punjab, with loads of influence from urban UK (including hip-hop and Caribbean influences). It is a reflection of the British Sikh identity. And the best part it that it has almost no active connection to India, it is almost entirely homegrown in the UK (of course the Punjabi language and the musical traditions/folk songs/instrumentation, etc that it is based on do come from India originally). Literally thousands of young Sikhs have been involved in creating this musical and cultural scene over the past 2 decades. Somehow, social/demographic factors were aligned just right in the UK to allow this to happen...because the equally large Punjabi community in Canada has not displayed even close to this level of creativity (it could be because they rely on importing product from the UK to fill their cultural needs; and I must say, the best bhangra dancing often comes from Canada). As for the melas, there has been a steady cycle of summertime melas through all the major desi communities in the UK for a long time now. Although they can be viewed as Malkani has interpreted them, I see them more as an expression of Punjabi culture and traditions, transplanted into a new environment and expressed through a new generation.

Floridian:

The origins of the mafia date back to Sicily centuries ago; some mafia elements were among those who migrated to America, and they gradually developed their criminal enterprises here as well. Discrimination from WASP society may have helped fuel its growth.

My comment about banning was made in jest as the comment that followed signalled (burqa etc). I support free speech too, and in any case, it's your blog.

I noticed this from the article,

On the terraces, white-skinned English fans donned fake beards and patkas (small turbans) to cheer on Panesar.

while

And although some British Pakistanis heckled Mahmood for supposedly betraying his Pakistani blood,

that underscores

there are of course differences between the experiences of British Pakistani youth and British Indian youth.

Floridian said:

I recently read an article in Time attempting to explain why the muslims in the US are far less violence prone than muslims in Europe. The reasons offered were the greater inclusiveness of the US society, better economic opportunities and so on.

I dont agree with that. The reason why American muslims of Pakistani decent do well is because a large part of them are also highly educated coming into the US due to the immigration policy of US, unlike the UK where entire Mirpuri villages live in their "biradari" system as the British readers had pointed out right after 7/7.

There are a lot of historical and current parallels to the Islamic fundamentalism story. Remember the history of the Mafia? The uneducated Italian youth, discriminated by the WASP society, finds refuge in gangs and before you know it, an underground society called the Mafia is formed.

Strangely enough, I have just finished reading a book about the Mafia by Peter Robb, and the reality of the mafia is that it was the complete opposite of the romanticised brigands of Sicilian Robin Hood's that you depict it as. They always were oppressive agents of Sicilian feudal lords and the persecuters of the poor and the peasentry. They were instrumental in the killing of communists and leftists in Sicily and in the diaspora they were criminal thugs who preyed in the first instance on the blood of their own community.

Taken like this, the comparison becomes more clear, and despite the defficiencies, regarding the extremists in this rosy eyed light is deeply dangerous and egregious.

The root cause is not the Koran, nor the misinterpretation of Koran, but socio-economic factors. I recently read an article in Time attempting to explain why the muslims in the US are far less violence prone than muslims in Europe. The reasons offered were the greater inclusiveness of the US society, better economic opportunities and so on.

The direct root causes of the fundamentalist violence is the ideology of extremism that has directly traceable ideological roots, political goals, ideologies, rooted in the philosophies of Sayid Qutb, Maududi etc etc. I understand the impulse to paint them in the Che Guevara light, but it is ultimately deeply egregious and wrong to do so. Well, only as right to do so as to paint for example violent and extreme right wing Hindutvadi fundamentalists in that light, or extreme right wing Neo Nazi skinheads in that light. In their own world of blame, cause and effect, and self romanticising notions, they are the perpetually oppressed, the righteous and sinned against. It's a shame that this is given so much purchase, especially when cleaving to their self value insults, marginalises, deprives mainstream Muslims of the ground beneath their feet. As an analysis it is deeply inadequate, and consistently slaps those Muslims and other people in those societies who progress without recourse to this violent hateful ideology in the face. It also ignores simple FACTS - that the proponents of jihad in the UK are not poverty stricken or marginalised but come from relatively prosperous and highly educated backgrounds.

Part of the Left has a massive blindspot on this issue.

Amitabh

Bhangra is the bread and butter of British Asian music, for sure, but in London especially there is a thriving scene of more experimental music which was heralded by artists like Talvin Singh and Nitin Sawhney which focuses around clubland. But the 'scenes' are quite intertwined. You have hardcore bhangra clubs and listeners, who only listen to that, and that's fine, but if you listen to some of the DJ sets on radio or at clubs there isnt so much snobbery - you'll get an Asian underground track played beside a bhangra track next to a Hip Hop track by a DJ like Nihal. It's quite mixed up like that which is good - everyone influences each other.

That Londonstani book was the biggest piece of shi# ever. Maybe it gets better but my body rejected anymore of it, I couldnt force myself to read anymore of it much like your body not letting you suffocate yourself to death.

Hi Red Snapper:
I was neither romanticizing nor condoning the Mafia, jihadists and similar criminals of any ilk. I was merely alluding to certain factors that usually fuel such extremism. In fact, the extremists are the ones who are quick to characterize themselves as the oppressed because it is good for their "business."

Speaking of culture-vulture, here's another cross-over Indian (in more ways than one)artist who is in today's NYTimes. Someone needs to blog about this. British-based desi artist about to do an installation in New York.

nice that the tone has remained high minded as i wake up in the morning. bravo!

now,

jai, said:

When 2nd-generation British Pakistanis are continuously exposed to that attitude from elders etc and consciously/subconsciously emulate it,

i think we need to add one issue here: there is a transmutation of the 'islam' which is practiced by the 2nd generation of briton muslims. to simplify, one could say it is a transformation of a more quietist barlevi sunni faith to a more strident deobandi sectarianism, but this is simplifying. the issue here is the generation of a new violent identity, unrooted, within the west, but not of it. the point is that the new islamic violence which manifests itself in the west is a hybrid culture, arising from the intersection of the tensions imposed by traditional islam, which can not be transferred to a new geographical locale, and the spread of a transnationalist ideology which can fill that vacuum. one point about radical transnationalist islamists is that they tend to be wanderers who are cosmopolitan. many of the 9/11 bombers had long sojourns in europe.

What is common between them is not religion obviously but their socioeconomic backgrounds.

the link between poverty and terrorism has been debunked. neither the 9/11 or 7/7 bombers were personally poor or destitute, and terrorism and radicalism violence do not necessarily (usually) emerge from those backgrounds. the profile of palestinian suicide bombers for example tends to be middle class, with prospects. the link between poverty and terrorism is intuitively appealing, and never seems to be able to be debunked because of its cultural and introspective supports, but it is just not correct (see scott atran, marc sageman or robert pape's work). one can easily see that poverty and terrorism do not have a tight correlation in that many immigrant groups are poor, but that does not lead to terrorism in all circumstances (e.g., why is it that the pakistani british community produced the 7/7 bombers, and not the turkish community in germany? are the latter much more affluent? we must look to other causative factors).

Speaking of South Asians' ability to integrate with the western culture, I am told that history is on the side of the muslims. With fewer religious and dietary taboos than Hindus, and of course certain religious commonalities with Christianity and Judaism, they had a higher comfort level with the white colonizers than did the Hindus.

i think it is not really plausible in most circumstances that point-by-point theological differences translate into inevitable assimilation. after all, black americans in the USA tend to share the evangelical christianity of their white neighbors (the baptist religion), but that does not imply amity. the kalmyks of the upper volga are refugee mongols who traditionally practice a form of lamaist buddhism. and yet i see no evidence that they are less assimilated into the russian state than their tatar muslim neighbors. the kalmyks have been resident in russia for 250 years, so there has been plenty of time. there are fewer dietary taboo differences between islam and judaism than between judaism and christianity, but i see no historical evidence that the jews of islam were more assimilated than the jews of christianity over time (do not confuse al-andalus for the norm in the dar-al-islam, maimonides fled persecution to the court of egypt from muslim regimes in spain and north africa).

The uneducated Italian youth, discriminated by the WASP society, finds refuge in gangs and before you know it, an underground society called the Mafia is formed.

this is a misreading of history, as another commenter pointed out. the mafia exists in sicily, it was transferred to the united states. one can't place the locus of all cultural developments in a reaction to the WASP power structure, as if immigrants are passive elements whose destinities have nothing to do with what they bring to the table. there were many groups who faced oppression in the united states, but the italian american mafia has been particular robust and resilient. one might posit that this is due to the previous cultural habits and experiences that the italian, as opposed to the irish, jewish, etc. mafias has been particular persistent despite italian american assimilation.

The root cause is not the Koran, nor the misinterpretation of Koran, but socio-economic factors. I recently read an article in Time attempting to explain why the muslims in the US are far less violence prone than muslims in Europe. The reasons offered were the greater inclusiveness of the US society, better economic opportunities and so on.

it is important to go beyond one "root cause," and perceive the issue as a nexus of interlocking necessary and sufficient conditions. i do not think there is fundamentally koranic that results in violence, but the reality is that there have been real problems assimilating muslims and not non-muslims in much of europe over the past generation. the key here might be socioeconomic in that muslims were drawn from lower strata with fewer skills. in the USA one reason muslims are not radical is that their relatively high educational levels guarantees a level of integration because professional level occuptations demand that, and also imply a high level of necessary mobility and interaction on a day to day level with those outside the community. additionally, muslims in the USA are ethnically diverse, so one unitary correlated identity of muslim-pakistani can not evolve because being muslim means being black, white, pakistani, arab, malaysian, etc. my understanding is that the sikhs were not derived from a much higher SES layer than the immigrants from mirpur, but seem to have integrated to a greater extent. i am curious as to more data in this area. the focus on socioeconomics is i think not unwarranted, in that it is a necessary precondition (affluent communities, as opposed to individuals, do not seem to produce terrorists), but it needs to be modulated by the reality that the terrorists themselves are often rather prosperous (e.g., atta was an engineering graduate student, some of the 7/7 bombers had a lot of money in the bank), and, not all communities which are poor seem to make recourse to terrorism. many of the black african communities in europe are not affluent, but there is no terrorism, many of the latino communities in the USA are not affluent, but there is no terrorism.

i will try to offer what i think are a list of factors

1) social anomie produced by the immigrant -> 2nd gen transition, or, cosmopolitanism in general (many radicals have backgrounds as expats at some point in their life, like bin laden and the core of al qaeda)
2) communal poverty in concert with personal prosperity, or at least personal freedom (that is, the community you identify with is powerless, but you are not)
3) an appropriate ideology which you find appealing (affluent white secular europeans were attracted to leftist radicalism in the 1960s)
4) tacit community acceptance of the "baby steps" toward radicalism. i think the reality is that many muslims come from cultures where some level of political-social violence is accepted as the norm

in regards to islam, though i do not think there is anything fundamental about any religion which is violent or pacifist, the historical record gives plenty of support for acting with violence in the name of the faith. this is probably a factor too, but perhaps not necessary or sufficient.

Assimilation need not mean synthesising a culture or entirely giving up one's own in favor of the host nation's. It could also mean simply following the laws of the land - extremely important in a country lik the US which is above all a land of laws. whether it derives from English common law or Scots law or is based on pragmatic statements such as found in the Code Napolean a community that assimilates ensures that nothing it does runs foul of these laws. It is not about song and dance or food.

With fewer religious and dietary taboos than Hindus, and of course certain religious commonalities with Christianity and Judaism, they had a higher comfort level with the white colonizers than did the Hindus.

The situation is reversed now. Hindus -- at least 2nd-Generation guys & gals -- are the most Westernised desi group in the UK. The vast majority drink alcohol and eat meat (except possibly for Jains -- who drink but may be vegetarian -- or the Swaminarayan types). Broadly-speaking, they also tend to be the most liberal in terms of certain aspects of dating behaviour etc.

Also remember that there's been a massive change in Western (ie. white) attitudes regarding female dress, sexual freedom, women's freedom, and general interaction between the sexes since colonial times. This issue, in particular, is another reason for the self-imposed segregation of many 1st and 2nd Generation British Pakistanis, and their disdain towards what they perceive to be mainstream British/Western culture and society. There are other issues too, of course, but matters like these mean that the people concerned a) don't want to fully integrate into British/Western society, and b) are unable to integrate sufficiently.

2nd-Gen Hindus and Sikhs have perhaps found it easier to embrace such "normal" aspects of Western life because, from their perspective, there are less stringent religion-based restrictions on such matters (although they tend to be less strictly religious here anyway).

My experiences with UK born desis was always friendly. Ofcourse, I met them all in the states, but there was marked difference in attitudes between the ones who were born there and ones who are born here.

Floridian

My apologies if I misread you. But you're right, there is a whole self-mytologizing that takes place around these groups, and that is the larger point I was trying to make, especially how dangerous it is to accept them at face value and then allow them to characterise Muslims in toto with their actions.

regards

Oooh, I'm esteemed now? Woohoo! I was expecting you guys to pick this up to be honest, Gautam sent me the article before for a quick perspective and I agreed with him. So I'm happy to defend criticisms.

Someone above said
i think juxtaposing 7/7 with the emergent brown macroculture in the arts is trivializing the former and devaluing the specific contributions of the latter as art rather than part of some broader theme.

I think the broader point here is about identity. The 7/7 lot and the celebration of brown culture are both identity issues that continue to manifest themselves in different ways. I think there is still a reluctance in many parts, especially with young Muslims, to identity themselves as British/English. That plays into a lot of issues. When people "blame" multi-culturalism for England's ills, they refer not just to 7/7 but also government funding of events such as the London Mela. The theory being that the more we are allowed to develop our own sub-culture, the more segregated we remain.

Razib wrote "the link between poverty and terrorism has been debunked."

Poverty may be one of the components of the backward sociocultural conditions that foster fundamentalism but it doesn't have to be. Perhaps I am misusing the term "sociocultural" but to me the term describes a complex matrix of income, education, values, aspirations, tradition and so on, much like Gen X or Baby Boomers. If this definition of sociocultural is acceptable, then one could say that groups that socioculturally remain disenfranchised and marginalized in their respective societies eventually form their own cliques, and worse, own jihads. Their actual income is not the issue.

I can only envision the Pakistani enclaves of Britain based on similar "colonies" in inner city US. Regardless of what each family may be earning, their existence is insular and on the fringes of mainstream. In that environment, regressing into some religious fanaticism seems very plausible. My point about the Mafia was the same. The old Mustache Petes in Sicily did not export the Mafia to the US. The Mafia was indigenously bred in places such as Hell's Kitchen of New York.

I admit my views are too macro to explain any one episode.

I think the broader point here is about identity. The 7/7 lot and the celebration of brown culture are both identity issues that continue to manifest themselves in different ways.

Right. The 7/7 bombers blew themselves up because they had identity issues?

Razib is right. At a certain point it becomes almost hilariously ridiculous to put Jay Sean and Juggy D (happy shiny bright multiculturalism!) in the same lobster pot as suicide bombers. And they can both be joined together by the accident of skin colour and the fact that they are both 'manifestations' of issues of identity? How elastic is your intellectualising? When does that elastic snap out of tendentiousness?

Macaca, pleeez....

Right. The 7/7 bombers blew themselves up because they had identity issues?

Yes. Well, it is a variety of factors but identity problems are definitely part of them.

I do think people mistake the importance of identity issues for people like the 7/7 bombers. Of course they wouldn't have thought it their motivation to do what they did in that way -'Oh I'm alienated from my sense of identity, let's go blow up a bus...'

but it's definitely an underlying factor.

What I' surprised people haven't picked up on is the sexist and shallow nature of the desi male youth culture that Malkani is celebrating. Is it really a sign of success that instead of singin' about black pimps and ho's they're singing about brown ones?

I know that he also referred to braver cultural experiements like the post 9/11 blues song. But saying that it's okay to be obsessed with fast cars and fast girls is kind of a cop out.

What I' surprised people haven't picked up on is the sexist and shallow nature of the desi male youth culture that Malkani is celebrating.

You are right. This is the lamest proof of multiculturalism I have ever come across either in print or electronic versions.

What I' surprised people haven't picked up on is the sexist and shallow nature of the desi male youth culture that Malkani is celebrating.

This is what I have come to think of as the poisoning of the diaspora community -- well among some and to some extent.

Is it really a sign of success that instead of singin' about black pimps and ho's they're singing about brown ones?

This is an excellent question, tashie. There's no morality, no intelligence in any of this "pimp" nonsense. It is downright destructive to the young and impressionable, male and female, and especially to the modest of IQ. I think most here would agree with you on this point. Fast cars, "Pimps", "Pimpshortiez" and Naked Women are not what freedom is about, and it was not the motivating factor that brought our south Asian forefathers here. IMO, it is a hallmark of a trashed culture where this kind of anything goes situation occurs.

RKK:

are you for real? Where's a SpoorLam where ya need one...

I'm not standing up for the misogny but the depraved Western culture vs. our forefathers thing? That's almost as pathetic as the Brown Sahib thing.

Overall I think it was a good piece and think that Malkani like me hopes that the initial black-culture emulation of fast cars and fast girls will give way to a more original desi cultural movement. Because creating a new youth culture that replaces racism with sexism isn't something that anyone wants.

R.K. Khan, dude, you are a hate mongerer. I just checked out your blog and noticed that you say you live in the U.S. In your perfect world, would everyone be Muslim? Is that what you are hoping for? Everyone would live by the sharia, is that it? Did you grow up in the U.S.? If you did, I am really afraid, mostly because I can't imagine that you and I could be clumped together in the same group in any way.

are you for real?

Why not? I thought I was agreeing with you.

R.K. Khan, dude, you are a hate mongerer.

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but, no, I don't see myself as a "hate mongerer".

R.K. Khan's blog is... how can I put this??? Very weird!!! What is it your business if desi women are involved in porn? Are we desis all supposed to fit into one little model minority box. Also, I would have some compassion for those poor folks b/c the porn industry exploits desperate, young teens/women... or haven't you heard this?

Though he doesn't munch on Cucumber sandwiches in public, citing Monty Panesar as an example of someone not "selling out" is absolutely premature. Monty's career is at a promising, but nascent, stage. As a slow left-arm orthodox spinner, in order to stamp the seal of originality on his career and preventing it from slipping into the mainstream stereotype, he needs a mystery ball. In the recent past, South Asian right-arm spinners have introduced the "doosra" and made it their own. However, no left-arm spinner in world cricket has a credible "wrong un"; most just have the arm-ball for surprise.

Monty must look upon this as an opportunity and he must work hard and invent a left-arm spinner's "doosra" which, to avoid “selling out” can be Christened Sikhed the "theesra". Also, Monty needs to ensure that his batting does not improve any further; any more, and he would be turning his back on generations of South Asian spinners who have seen batting as a distractive prelude to the important business of bowling. Fortunately, his fielding is definitely entwined in strong and unyielding South Asian roots and looks set to become a unique aspect of his cultural identity. Without the "theesra", Madhsudhen Singh Panesar will be remembered by his South Asian peers as yet another Saps, Ponce, or Batty.

One last thing; our Harbajan will whip your Monty any day;)
Peace!

This is what I have come to think of as the poisoning of the diaspora community -- well among some and to some extent

Malkani does not CELEBRATE it - he represents it. It's real, it exists - guess what? Teenage boy-men are often sexist, homophobic and overtly macho, of all backgrounds.

But I'm just trying to stop myself laughing at RK Khan's self declared arbitration of righteous morality in the light of this, his mendacious false dichotomy between his horrific version of desi manhood and psychotic ascription of western culture as rancid and trashed, the vicious sadist who declares the need for hitting women and keeping them on leashes and in burqa's. What an abject psychology.

What I' surprised people haven't picked up on is the sexist and shallow nature of the desi male youth culture that Malkani is celebrating.

Well actually, the book deconstructs this. This, from when I interviewed him:

So I ask him, what is Londonstani really about and why did he write it?

"Ultimately the book is about a certain group of boys trying to become men. But I was interested in the way that ethnicity is used as a proxy for masculinity. They play on their ethnicity to be more macho, more virile," he says.

There is a reason for this line of thinking he says. At Cambridge university he wanted to study Asian sub-culture for his final year project. His tutor suggested that rather than follow a group of boys and interpret his findings through a race perspective, it would be more interesting to examine how gender plays a part.

The book was partly based on that research.

"I could be looking at the aggressive Asian rude-boy scene as a response to racism," he says, "and it partly is - I don't want to downplay that. But the gender lines are interesting because if you think about racism, it makes people feel emasculated."

"It's not simply about a bunch of Asian boys fighting back. They're fighting back against their domineering mothers as much as they're fighting against the system. My main aim was to do it as an entertaining ride. I had so many more sociological insights I could have included but they just weren't entertaining. That means you can't take it too seriously or not seriously enough," he adds.
http://www.asiansinmedia.org/news/article.php/publishing/1342

So I wouldn't say he is entirely unaware of the sexism inherent in this sub-culture. But he sees it, as I do, as a natural reaction to the emasculation of racism. In time this will change. In fact we, as second/third generation British Asians have to change this ourselves.

Ok the HTML came out a bit wrong. The last paragraph is mine. The few paragraphs before that are quoted from the interview.

Are there any eighteen year old boy-men from London of any racial background who when they get in a gang with their friends, don't enagage in banter about girls and pass the occasional homophobic comment? Being that age is all about being aggressive and asserting masculinity, especially in a tough city like London. When you grow up, settle down, your aggro ends too.

This is what it is like for all young British men, Asian, white and black. If anything, I thought Malkani dwelt on it too much, and turned it into racial anthropology, when all it is, was boy-men acting tough in a tough city.

Maybe in that light you can read his work as a kind of morality play and deduce from it that he is putting forward a recipe like this:

But saying that it's okay to be obsessed with fast cars and fast girls is kind of a cop out.

When you read Londonstani as celebrating or suggesting "it's okay to be obsessed with fast cars and fast girls", you sort of miss the point, as if a novel should be a set of instructions or a design for life.

Yes. Well, it is a variety of factors but identity problems are definitely part of them.

Sure. Everything comes down to 'identity issues' at some point. How helpful it is to categorise this particular extreme malfunction (blowing yourself up on a train) in the context of 'Asian identity issues' of the most benign kind is open to question.

especially in a tough city like London.

RC:

What's so amusing about that? Obviously the touristic spots in London or the places that well-heeled desis would visit are not 'tough' but the neighborhoods where many Sikh and Muslim youth grow up are quite tough (albeit not as bad as parts of Brooklyn or the Bronx).

Tashie:

The lyrics of most bhangra songs are not only as you describe but also casteist and encouraging of alcoholism as well. So what? I'd rather have that than have the kids lose their culture, language, and identity and become more 'sensitive' but completely de-ethnicized. More to the point - these are working class kids, not very well educated, and I don't think anyone is going to get them to stop celebrating this culture. What matters to me is that the language used is still very pure Punjabi.

Whats amusing is that I am surprised that why would people all over the world be lining up to immigrate to a "tough city" like London. I am not aware of people lining up to immigrate to Delhi.

A lot of people have a romanticised view of how "tough" their life was, so that it can be shown that they have overcome adversity. Bill Orielly tried that by claiming to have come from a "tough" part of the city he grew up, which apparently was a fabrication. When Al Fraken pointed it out, they had a high-school-esq confrontation which was televised live on C-span.

Anyways, "tough" is exteremly relative term and people just throw it around very easily. Ask your lower middle class cousins or relatives in any Indian city what tough is.

RC:

You're right, there are different kinds of 'tough', and it's all relative in any case. I'm aware that urban India can be a very tough place too, especially for lower SES groups. Village India can be very rough and tumble too, with fights breaking out all the time. People moved to London for economic opportunity, period.

RC

Life is tough in parts of London. Racial tension, gang violence, crime. Life is tough in other places too. One does not preclude the other.

RC,

especially in a tough city like London.

London is a fantastic city to live in if you are a highly-educated professional (or generally well-off, one way or another).

London is necessarily so nice if you are undereducated, underemployed, and have an overly ghettoised mindset that will prevent you from being able to achieve success in the mainstream society.

Major typo in my post #63 (Admin -- please remove previous post, at your discretion) :

Correct version:

RC,

especially in a tough city like London.

London is a fantastic city to live in if you are a highly-educated professional (or generally well-off, one way or another).

London is not necessarily so nice if you are undereducated, underemployed, from an ethnic minority, and have an overly ghettoised mindset that will prevent you from being able to achieve success in the mainstream society.

Amitabh,

I'd rather have that than have the kids lose their culture, language, and identity and become more 'sensitive' but completely de-ethnicized.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you this time. As far as I'm concerned, being a better human being should be the priority, not necessarily being "as Punjabi/Indian/etc as possible".

If the people concerned manage to simultaneously maintain the positive aspects of their background (and eject the negative stuff), that's the icing on the cake and a nice bonus.

"Culture" isn't the be-all-and-end-all of life. Being a decent human being, however, is.

jai,

amen!

R.K. Khan's blog is... how can I put this??? Very weird!!! What is it your business if desi women are involved in porn? Are we desis all supposed to fit into one little model minority box. Also, I would have some compassion for those poor folks b/c the porn industry exploits desperate, young teens/women... or haven't you heard this?

.. .. Because i feel that it is depraved and blackening, not only to them but to myself. South Asians just do not behave in such manners, or so it was my belief.

Also, it is correct that the porn industry is exploiting the vulnerable, but, as I've read, in all too many cases women see this as acceptable behavior. Also note that this porn industry is very enmeshed with american and other western business interests. You will often notice that western males are the honchoes behind this strain contamination. i remember reading on this from 2002 or so, so I don't remember the addresses or anything.

"Culture" isn't the be-all-and-end-all of life. Being a decent human being, however, is.

and I very much concur with you there sir, but all too often it is the culture that is responsible for human indecency. Sometimes culture makes being a decent human being an impossiblity, or a desperate struggle.

Sometimes culture makes being a decent human being an impossiblity, or a desperate struggle.

Certainly the sadistic culture that exclaims the need to whip women and keep them chained to the home and forced to wear a burqa and have to bow and scrape to every whim of their male relatives springs to mind in relation to your statement.

Someone who would say things like this:

5,000 lashes is sufficient. Women should absolutely be in burqas unless in the home and with close family. I don't care what caste they're from -- these women are just scum that will one day be toasting and roasting in that place where bad people eventually go.

Jai:

You're right, I can't disagree with you there. Being a good human being is far more important than adhering to a particular culture. That's a lesson that kids' parents, schools, as well as religious and community organisations have got to get across to them (and which has been neglected). I do however feel that Punjabi (more accurately Sikh) kids in the UK have managed to do what NO other ethnic group (to my knowledge) has managed to do...keep their ancestral musical culture (and associated language) alive and vibrant into the 2nd and even 3rd generation. Keeping their inherited indentity relevant to their lives. I remember being at a desi mela in New Jersey a few years ago. There was a Bangladeshi DJ from Paterson (a town with a large population of Bangladeshis). He was playing a lot of hip-hop, there were many desi kids including a large number of Bangladeshis, all dressed (and talking) like young urban black kids, with doo rags, etc. dancing to rap music. It was clear that African American urban culture had become these kids identity, at least to a significant extent. Then at a certain point, he started playing bhangra (from the UK), and all these Punjabi kids moved into the main dance area, dancing bhangra moves, singing along with the lyrics of the songs, etc. I felt that, in comparison to the Bangladeshis, these Punjabi kids really had something of their own going on, and to celebrate, not just a borrowed hip-hop culture. To me that is quite an achievement and to be lauded. I agree that sexism, racism, casteism, alcoholism, etc. are bad in any context.

keep their ancestral musical culture (and associated language) alive and vibrant into the 2nd and even 3rd generation

a lot of black music does probably have origins from the west african milieu. more in places like haiti than the USA, where scot-irish celtic influences were important in creating a synthetic poor black/"white trash" musical culture which gave rise to various genres (e.g., blues, jazz, rock, rock-a-billy, country, etc.)

and i point out the black example because they kept their musical tradition through slavery and the lash and lynchings. props to punjabis and their MCes, but a little perspective :)

Razib:

As a fan of blues music in my younger days, I am well aware of the saga of 'African survivals' in African-American music through the ages...and I know that there was active suppression of African musical forms by white society for generations...most of the overt African stuff (especially the famous western African drumming styles) had no choice but to disappear, and re-emerge as subtle rhythmic and melodic elements in new hybrid musical forms. The blues scale, as well as the call and response form of much African American music, derives from African traditions. In Jazz, the African touches are just as strong but even more subtle. I have full respect for this phenomenon. However, I don't think it's very comparable to what the Punjabis in the UK have done (in different centuries, different circumstances, and with different histories and different technologies available for cultural dissemination). Granted, no one was suppressing Punjabi culture, and they had full freedom to maintain and develop their own British-Punjabi hybrid culture. My point is simply that many other immigrant groups who have had that opportunity, have nonetheless failed to do so. Part of that is because their original ancestral culture did not have the fun appeal or the strength to remain attractive to the new transplanted generations.

Part of that is because their original ancestral culture did not have the fun appeal or the strength to remain attractive to the new transplanted generations.

LOL. dude, i know what you're saying, but it but sounds patronizing and jackassish to say it that way :) "our culture is just funner!."

Razib:

It may sound patronising (or jackassish) but I think there's truth to it. Most people will rather do something fun and what they feel to be 'cool' than something they find stilted and boring (or corny). Why did 'disco-dandia' never really take off amongst the Gujarati youth in the West the way that Bollywood and Bhangra did? Why does rock music have way more fans than classical music? Which is not to say that highly-developed art forms, such as Bharatnatyam, or Odissi dance, or western classical music as typified by Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach, should not be studied and preserved. They are on a much higher level than hip hop, rock, and for that matter bhangra. But they are certainly not for everybody.

Certainly the sadistic culture that exclaims the need to whip women and keep them chained to the home and forced to wear a burqa and have to bow and scrape to every whim of their male relatives springs to mind in relation to your statement.

you are not getting anything out of the wild exageration of my position. Are you a radical feminist or something? I have observed in many a discussion that these are tactics and positions typical.

Amitabh,

i don't know enough about brown music to evaluate your claim. i don't disagree with it, cuz i don't know it. i just am noting the way you are stating it is kind of arrogant sounding :) i mean, i think you could say the same stuff in a more clinical academic way, or, limit it to empirical anecdotes like you did about paterson, NJ. the only reason i bring this up is that there are a lot of chauvanists on these boards and they'll jump on dat shiz to start a ruckus.

Razib:

Point noted.

jai # 37:
umm, whats a swaminarayan type??

What I' surprised people haven't picked up on is the sexist and shallow nature of the desi male youth culture that Malkani is celebrating.

This is what I have come to think of as the poisoning of the diaspora community -- well among some and to some extent.

My interpretation of this statement is that you are against the sexist desi male culture. If so, your viewpoints (RRK) on your blog have me a bit puzzled.

Here you say (sorry, each indiv post is not linkable):

A woman must not show her beauty in public space unless completely necessary. (e.g., medics had to attend to her for some reason.)

Then, you talk about "5,000 lashes" as someone quoted above. Under your 13Aug comments, you state

I'd have my harem of beautiful shapely women, all provided for to the best of my abilities. Nice bellydancers.

I don't really recall ever seeing any bellydancers wearing full burkha - makes viewing the "belly" a bit difficult, no? As far as the burkhas go, I've always wondered that if men are so worried about "their" women being looked at, isn't it normal to think that the women might be concerned about the men being admired as well? Shouldn't that require a male burkha as well, you know, to "even" everything out?

Are you a radical feminist or something?

Incidentally, you seem quite "unsatisfied" in your "dating" endeavors:

I've long come to realize that the Asian male is somehow undesirable to females, now even to Asian females. I cannot count the number of times I've been rejected by luscious to below-averagely attractive females of apparently countless ethnicities and in different areas

Might I conjecture that your views are perhaps turning these women off?

Amitabh,

I do however feel that Punjabi (more accurately Sikh) kids in the UK have managed to do what NO other ethnic group (to my knowledge) has managed to do...keep their ancestral musical culture (and associated language) alive and vibrant into the 2nd and even 3rd generation. Keeping their inherited indentity relevant to their lives.

I know what you're saying but this isn't quite accurate, at least with regards to the UK. One of the major reasons why there are so many problems within the British Pakistani population is because they have excessively adhered to all of the above (okay, not the music, but in terms of other inherited behaviours and customs etc).

In terms of other immigrant groups here, they too get involved in various aspects of their inherited culture, but it's less noticeable because there are numerically less of them and they are less noisy about it. 2nd-Generation Africans here tend to dive into the Western black culture -- since it's already very high-profile and long-established -- although they do maintain certain aspects of their background too, but not to the extent that desis do. Remember that they also tend to be less conservative about certain matters and this makes it easier for them to integrate into mainstream Western culture. All this also applies to the large numbers of people here originating in the Caribbean.

There is a smaller sprinkling of Chinese people in the UK too; from what I've seen, the parents tend to be quite traditional, but their children are almost completely Westernised in their general behaviour (certain more so than desis are).

With regards to the US, I was under the impression that non-Sikh/non-Punjabi Indians over there are more enthusiastic about maintaing Indian dances and music (both "Bollywood" and classical) -- for example, the very large turnouts at "Boogie Woogie"-type dance competitions there, which are also sometimes profiled on Asian Variety Show on Sony. There are plenty of Hindus in the UK too, but such large competitions and events do not occur on some a wide scale, at least not so enthusiastically. However, annual garbas during Navratri here are of course very popular and have huge numbers of participants.

You are correct, though, about the fact that non-Punjabi Indians here are far less interested in music and other cultural matters from their own background (comparatively-speaking). The greater proportion of Hindus here are Gujarati, and -- garbas aside -- I am aware that they also have their own, less-publicised varieties of folk music and singing which is all but invisible amongst 2nd-Gen Gujjus here.

Part of that is because their original ancestral culture did not have the fun appeal or the strength to remain attractive to the new transplanted generations.

It's not very politically-correct to say so, but I do think you're right about this. I would also tentatively propose that there are certain ideals that Punjabi culture is strongly influenced by (significantly, although not exclusively, due to the Sikh input), so a) that gives a greater incentive for people to maintain the positive aspects of their culture and not reject their identity -- because they feel it's a positive environment, and is generally quite upbeat, friendly, dynamic etc -- and b) certain aspects of the history involved means there's a greater pride in these matters. People are not trying to get the hell away from being Punjabi, for example.

It's an interesting point. Before "British desi" culture really exploded into the public eye, amongst Indians it was mainly Sikhs who were not embarrassed about being Indian. I think that, again because of the heroic history involved, being "Indian" perhaps had different connotations for Sikhs compared to desis from some other backgrounds. The warrior element does also place a different spin on things, of course, in terms of role models (religious and/or historical) and general attitudes to life; this is quite important if a person/group is in a society which may have historically been quite hostile, or at least patronising, towards them (racism, the colonial baggage, and so on).

Personally, I think that similar developments would have occurred if, for example, British Indians were predominantly Rajasthanis instead of Punjabis. The whole Rajput thing does have a certain glamour too (along with, let's admit it, machismo); if you ask any 2nd-Gen Rajasthanis in the US, I'm sure they'll grin and confirm this ;)

all dressed (and talking) like young urban black kids, with doo rags, etc. dancing to rap music. It was clear that African American urban culture had become these kids identity, at least to a significant extent.

Bro, until British desi culture really exploded (predominantly, although again not exclusively, due to bhangra), South Asians here from all backgrounds were exactly like this too, including Punjabis :) To some extent they still are, at least amongst the younger crowd.

Desis were practically invisible in the mainstream British media until the early/mid-90s, so the only non-white role models everyone had were American black actors and rappers/singers (apart from the limited influence of Bollywood). There was essentially a ready-made, assertive, vibrant non-white culture which, by default, younger desis latched onto. Spike Lee, Do The Right Thing, Malcolm X, New Jack City, Boyz 'N The Hood, Public Enemy, Ice-T, NWA, along with smooooth soul music etc etc were absolutely huge amongst younger South Asians here. It was only after the rise of bhangra, GGM etc that people really started doing their own thing, although the black influence was still there to some extent -- but the latter's obviously become mainstream these days too.

Dingchak,

umm, whats a swaminarayan type??

It's a sect of Hinduism which has many adherents amongst Gujaratis. The biggest Hindu temple in the UK is owned by the Swaminarayans (very nice place, about 10 years old, built in the traditional north Indian Hindu style, lots of marble, very peaceful).

Amitabh,

re: post #75

It's because all that is more macho, basically. Applies to bhangra too -- if something's loud, upbeat, and (yes) fun, then younger people will of course be more likely, and more willing, to hold onto it/participate in it. Especially if one's community is numerically in a minority and perhaps in a semi-hostile mainstream environment (historically-speaking, if less so these days, although this does perhaps still apply to the condescending attitude towards desis there in the US).

Yes I do know this is slightly contradicted by the fact that ghazals are very popular amongst many younger desis here too, but if you think about the analogy that ghazals are to old-school soul/r'n'b compared to what bhangra is to hip-hop, then it does make sense.

All this applies to certain other aspects of culture too, of course, not just music. This takes us back to what I was previously saying about more assertive and upbeat attitudes amongst Punjabis compared to Indians from other backgrounds (very broadly-speaking). Even the Khalsa ethos translated effectively into the African-American gangsta/hip-hop influence which was so, well, influential amongst younger Sikhs here a while back -- "brothers" sticking together in what was perceived to be a hostile wider environment, people looking out for each other, not taking any crap etc.

Ironically, I think the latter's a major driver towards the increasing conservativism of younger British Pakistani Muslims too, along with (in the more extreme cases) radicalisation etc. The difference, perhaps, is that although the warrior thing is ideologically and historically prevalent in Sikhism as well as in Islam, broadly-speaking there have been significant disparaties in terms of when the warlike traits have been executed, the principles behind them, and the general attitude towards people from a different background (in both "peacetime" and war)*. Controversial to say this, but perhaps something to ponder.

*I'm referring to pre-colonial times, not the horrific events of 1947.

PS Can I just "bump" a superb article posted on the News tab by Kush Tandon. It's from the NY Times and discusses how Pakistanis seem to find the US an "easier fit" than the UK. Please do read this: article here.

Either way, there's been a huge increase in the number of (Muslim) beards and - especially - burkhas visible amongst younger desis in the UK during the past couple of years. It wasn't even remotely like this when I was younger, not even when I was at university (early-late 90s), apart from the cases of a very small minority of really hardcore "armchair jihadi/khilafat" types (guys not women). At the time, it was very difficult to distinguish physically between desis according to religious affiliation -- apart from Sikhs -- even though there were already huge numbers of 2nd-Generation desis of all backgrounds at university and in the workplace (especially London and the Midlands).

It may sound patronising (or jackassish) but I think there's truth to it. Most people will rather do something fun and what they feel to be 'cool' than something they find stilted and boring (or corny). Why did 'disco-dandia' never really take off amongst the Gujarati youth in the West the way that Bollywood and Bhangra did? Why does rock music have way more fans than classical music? Which is not to say that highly-developed art forms, such as Bharatnatyam, or Odissi dance, or western classical music as typified by Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach, should not be studied and preserved. They are on a much higher level than hip hop, rock, and for that matter bhangra. But they are certainly not for everybody.

Jai,

The NY Times piece is good and, if it's possible to extract one determining variable with respect to Pakistani immigration in the US compared to the UK, it is this:

Pakistani immigration to the United States surged after laws in the 1960’s made it easier for Asians to enter the country. Most were drawn by jobs in academia, medicine and engineering. It was only in the late 1980’s and 90’s that Pakistanis arrived to work blue-collar jobs as taxi drivers or shopkeepers, said Adil Najam, the author of the book on donations and an international relations professor at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University.

In Britain, by comparison, the first Pakistanis arrived after World War II to work in factories. Many were fleeing sectarian strife in Kashmir — a lingering source of resentment — and entire communities picked up and resettled together. This created Pakistani ghettos in cities like Bradford and Birmingham, whereas in the United States immigrants tended to be scattered and newcomers forced to assimilate. The trends intensified with time.

Again, does the personal and potential wealth of the immigrant forecast the type of socio-economic development of a community? Unlikely, but it's a very important factor to consider within first and second generation immigration analysis.

If you could settle on a sole macro factor, I think it would be this:

This is very important. Let's take apart all that you've just said. You're saying that nationalism, or a national liberation movement, is a driving force in all of these cases.

Suicide terrorism is an extreme form of a national liberation strategy. Nationalism, that is nationalist commitment to the territory that's at issue, is the core driving force, and of course, some nationalists are also religious. It doesn't mean that nationalism is always fundamentally opposed to religion, but it's terribly important to see that the key concept underneath suicide terrorism, the key driving factor, is a deep anger over the presence of foreign combat forces on territory that the terrorists prize greatly. Absent that core condition, we rarely see suicide terrorism.

Excerpt from a longer interview with Professor Robert Pape from U of C.

Holy Choli, Siddhartha! Missed this thread as I was out of town all weekend and have a million things to say but will limit myself. First off, while I usually laugh at melas for their sheer cheese value (I've had to work at loads of them at a health booth -- I have seen more creative facial hair and heard more plays of Mundian To Bach Ke than anyone ever needs to) I actually enjoyed myself at this year's London Mela because they made an effort to include peeps like Yam Boy, Nerm, Pathaan, MC Riz, the entire Indo Electronica stage, etc. But there's one aspect of the melas that everyone I know hates -- that of RK Khan's "family and tribe first" mentality. Huge groups of teen males swagger in waving huge Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi flags, and get all aggressive on each other and the females. I mean, it's one thing to be proud of where your parents were born, but it really comes off as menacing. I was at the BBC Asian Network booth and the two DJs watched one such group enter and both started ranting about how they ruin the melas every year and make Asians look bad. So that's one small not-so-positive aspect. And I disagree with Malkani -- in my experience, they're still attended by 99% Asians, meaning they're still somewhat ghettoized from the larger community. I occasionally see interracial couples with kids wandering around, but almost never groups of young non-Asians just wandering around to check it out. Big free events like the Finsbury Park RISE Festival (music from mainstream pop to Asian to hip-hop to Middle Eastern) attract a far more representative multicultural sample of London youth.

Secondly, I spent most of my weekend at the flat of a Brit Asian female rapper talking and talking for hours, partly about Londonstani (can't read the damn thing, but have read all the analysis about it and met Malkani briefly) and ghetto Asian culture. She really opened my eyes to what life is like for working-class Asians. It was completely alien to me (white American who hangs with "hip" and "ironic" Brit Asians, har har) hearing about her life. Drugs, violence, crime, everything economic happening in a black market of fraud -- it was really overwhelming. She thinks what Malkani wrote about needs to be forced into the mainstream much more, or no one will ever understand where a huge chunk of the population comes from, and urban areas with huge brown populations will just become more and more 3rd-world in terms of gangs and illegal activity and corruption. I think she's really aware of how absolutely isolated these communities are from each other. It's like, imagine the UK being this thing that on the surface looks all generally positive (Diwali in Trafalgar Square, Eid Tea in Parliament with the Prime Minister, all the upper-class journalists writing about lovely multiculti arts events in the Guardian and how Malkani is so "real," etc) but really there's this obese underbelly heaving with voluntary apartheid and scams and violence. Hell, even my boyfriend in Brick Lane can't get paid for some of the work he does because of the rich goondas that run the street and threaten everyone with knives. But oh, Brick Lane is so TRENDY with their funky bars at the top and all those twee Indian restaurants overcharging for spicy gravy slop! It's the epicenter of massive credit-card fraud, council benefit fraud, heroin abuse among teens, people taking massive bank loans and then immediately bankrupting their business and buying a new house in their brother's name, restaurant owners who can call on goondas to threaten other businesses...but who is aware of this other than the people involved? Not the rest of the UK.

No von Mises,

if it's possible to extract one determining variable with respect to Pakistani immigration in the US compared to the UK, it is this:

Well, the disparity between education and wealth between the two transatlantic Pakistani communities as possibly being a motivator is something quite a few people have suggested, including during previous discussions here on SM. However, considering the fact that several of the 7/7 bombers last year were from fairly affluent backgrounds, the fact that Islamic extremist groups are currently targetting British university campuses, and the fact that some of these groups here in the UK include highly-qualified medical doctors and lawyers amongst their ranks, I don't think we can use education and affluence as being primary motivators alone.

Maybe partially, and maybe it depends on the particular person, but I think that the kind of family and social environment the potential jihadi originally comes from (irrespective of his/her current education and affluence) and the type of people he/she predominantly socialises with -- in terms of their personalities and attitudes -- may be more pertinent factors.

First, I feel like every time the word "South Asian" was used in that article or post, it could have been replaced by "Punjabi". It has long been a source of amazement to me how Indians of all backgrounds in the diaspora are willing to accept Punjabi culture transplanted as somehow being representative of Indian culture at large. There is a lot of evidence that the "pan-North Indian" culture of Bollywood is simply Punjabi culture with a little pandering to Gujuratis thrown in. As someone that is mostly South Indian, I was never exposed to bhangra or any other trappings of this scene until college, and I found myself almost as bewildered as a white person by the enthusiasm people displayed for the bhangra team and other such endeavors.

I felt the same way in college. people would decide that im "not really indian" or i "must be really americanized" because I didnt relate to punjabi culture. People also acted like "being too americanized" is a sin.

I felt the same way in college. people would decide that im "not really indian" or i "must be really americanized" because I didnt relate to punjabi culture. People also acted like "being too americanized" is a sin.

There's always room for new hybridities. Rudresh Mahanthappa and Vijay Iyer's jazz - dont you hear the nageswaram in their work? The thousands of bharatnatyam schools popping up that has lead to new creativity in dance? There's some guy who posts here who mashes carnatic ragas into his DJ-ing? My question is whether the community here is too burgeois outwardly; our cultural icon is Jhumpa Lahiri - staid and elegant, but lacking that certain something that moves. England seems to be culturally richer at the moment, perhaps because they're older; perhaps because they're not shunted into professions as much as we are. Besides the bhangra, there is a torrent of new writers shaping the language.

Gautham,

Nice comment.. India itself is one big multi-cultural entity. I think due to Bollywood and the big diaspora, so far Punjabi culture has been made synonymous with Indian culture.. Nothing wrong with that though.. It's all good.

You just have to see the Independence or Republic day parades to see and enjoy the cultural diversities of India.. I was struck by a comment I read from a newsarticle (I think in BBC) a few years back where it talked about India showing off its military and cultural might in the republic day parades... I never heard of "cultural might" before.. Nice term and I liked it ..

There's always room for new hybridities. Rudresh Mahanthappa and Vijay Iyer's jazz - dont you hear the nageswaram in their work? The thousands of bharatnatyam schools popping up that has lead to new creativity in dance? There's some guy who posts here who mashes carnatic ragas into his DJ-ing? My question is whether the community here is too burgeois outwardly; our cultural icon is Jhumpa Lahiri - staid and elegant, but lacking that certain something that moves. England seems to be culturally richer at the moment, perhaps because they're older; perhaps because they're not shunted into professions as much as we are. Besides the bhangra, there is a torrent of new writers shaping the language.

hmm....i graduated college in 01. not sure if these developments happened after that. but, in any case there was this one show where this artist was playing some new tamil music. the north indian guys were talking about the fact that it was in tamil in disgust after the show. pretty gr!m. reasonable people otherwise though.

Also Canada. There seems to be government grants available to dancers, poets and fiction writers, and Toronto always have a VERY impressive schedule of classical music concerts - Hindustani and Carntic, and a wider range of South Asian restaurants - including Sri Lankan Tamil Chettiar which is delish.

midwestern eastender

She really opened my eyes to what life is like for working-class Asians. It was completely alien to me (white American who hangs with "hip" and "ironic" Brit Asians, har har) hearing about her life. Drugs, violence, crime, everything economic happening in a black market of fraud -- it was really overwhelming

Yeah but that's pretty much life in all working class areas of England, and if you go to Liverpool, Newcastle, or any inner city area you see the scams, the black marketeering, the drugs, the gangs. Working class white people and working class black people (watch the movie 'Kidz' about life amongst black youth in London) all know this - it's more a class thing than something that mainstream society refuses to see or wants to see about Asians uniquely. What do the white middle class know about life on a council estate for poor white people? Nothing much. It's a class issue more than anything else. In fact, back in your homeland, i expect it's the same, in working class inner city areas, the law of the jungle in those areas, the pressures, crime, is not really understood or represented by the mainstream.

But there's one aspect of the melas that everyone I know hates -- that of RK Khan's "family and tribe first" mentality. Huge groups of teen males swagger in waving huge Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi flags, and get all aggressive on each other and the females.

Amen to that. They really are the pits. Londonstani is written about exactly those kinds of tribal minded macho boys.

in working class inner city areas, the law of the jungle in those areas, the pressures, crime, is not really understood or represented by the mainstream.

Red Snapper: I agree, but would you also say that at least there's a lot of media ABOUT the working class when it comes to blacks and whites? Whether it's hip-hop music in the U.S. or Brit films about Cockney gangsters or ex-factory workers dropping trou, I would hazard a guess that most people have a basic understanding about the issues that affect poor black and white people. But Asian culture in the UK is portrayed in a fairly positive light (Bollywood! Festivals! Steel tycoons!), except when it comes to Muslims, I think. THEN they go on about "deprived communities" and the unemployment rates among Bangladeshis and Pakistanis. But otherwise there's no mass media that would give the average person a view of these communities. Yes? No?

midwestern eastender

Maybe you have a point. I would have to think about it more. The Pakistani and Bengali ghettos are the worst in terms of deprivation and poverty. In the last few years you have seen a tremendous amount of attention on the desi Muslim communities, films like 'Yasmin' about a hijabi girl up north, films about the Bradford riots etc etc. Not to mention endless newspaper articles, features, TV discussion programmes all about their problems and the clash of civilisations. This has accelerated since last year and 7/7.

But it's got to the stage where Muslims don't seem to have a life, or a profile in the mainstream outside the parameters of the endless enquiry into their problems. Even a novel like 'Maps for Lost Lovers', set amongst Pakistanis in the north of England, a novel which I enjoyed, even then I kept putting it to one side every few pages thinking 'oh come on'.....crammed full of dysfunction and bleakness to a morbid degree.

Indians probably have it easier in some senses.....maybe that is because the focus isnt on them in terms of being seen as dysfunctional as Pakistanis, or the problems are not as acute. Kumars at Number 42, Bend it like Beckham, Panjabi MC etc etc, all fun things that have Indian roots.....because there's not so much negative expectations.

But the class thing does cut across racial lines - the white middle class of England does not really have a conception of inner city life as it is lived by white or black people either.

well, the pencil-beard running across your chin is pretty mozarella

I'm sorry but there is something troubling about your earlier comments? What "cheese factor" are you talking about exactly? Do you find our culture cheesy? That's a pretty weird comment to make on a site by and for American and British Indian people

Relax Gautham she doesnt mean that at all. She's talking about the tackiness of British mela season over the summer when lots of cheesy music is played and cheesy things happen with teenagers and gangs and tacky fashions. She's being satirical and I agree with her 100%. She's on the level and one of us. Relax.

Gautham,

I'm sorry but there is something troubling about your earlier comments? What "cheese factor" are you talking about exactly? Do you find our culture cheesy? That's a pretty weird comment to make on a site by and for American and British Indian people

Back off. You got a problem with Midwestern Eastender's comments, you can take the time to think it out and phrase it respectfully. More importantly, your interpretations of whom this site is "by and for" are yours alone. So kindly don't threaten our sister. Thank you.

Back off?Huh, was Gautham really that offensive?

From the FAQ:

I'm not desi, can I still read this blog?

Come one, come all.

The last thing we want is to bully people who are not directly South Asian out of participating here, especially when like Midwestern Eastender they are so involved in the culture and such intelligent and thoughtful participants to the conversation here.

Also, not to belabor the point, but your earlier description of the site "by and for American and British Indians" and your observation that the pictures on the masthead are all of brown people, are two entirely different matters. We consider ourselves members of the South Asian diaspora, nothing more nothing less.

lets keep this focused on whats important, facial hair stylings such as; the long-lined sideburn; the whisp goatee; the soul patch; the out-line beard

If a desi person says something, it might have one connotation, but coming from a non-desi person, of course we're going to be more sensitive.

that doesn't make it ok, dude. I don't know about the "we" bakwaas, but speak on behalf of your own sensitivities, and not on behalf of mine or anyone else's.

And even if our sista across the pond does find desi culture cheesy... what of it?? Break out crackers and deal with it.

Although Guatham's comment (post #100) was a bit too sensitive on his part, I think SM Intern's response (#103) was somewhat harsh and seems based on having a friendship with Midwestern Eastender and coming to her defense. Personally, I don't find the desi melas in the UK cheesy, but I respect her right to her views. Gautham shouldn't be bullied off this forum either.

well, the pencil-beard running across your chin is pretty mozarella

well, the pencil-beard running across your chin is pretty mozarella

that was very gouda sahej.

Jai:

Thank you for your thoughtful comments (posts # 81 and 83). As usual I agree with what you say. I just wanted to emphasize that I feel it's precisely the creativity within the musical scene and musical culture that has been nurtured by the UK Sikh youth that sets them apart from other diasporic desi groups (although on further reflection, the Indo-Caribbeans have also done similar things within their own arena). You mentioned British Pakistanis, and that in your view part of the problems they face result from too much adherence to ancestral culture...but I don't think it's language or culture per se that is getting them into trouble, it's religious extremism...something that transcends Pakistani culture itself (which at heart is related to other forms of northern desi culture). I do agree that various other immigrant groups have also nurtured their ancestral culture to various extents...but for me, the litmus test is, are you being CREATIVE and INNOVATIVE with that culture, or are you just importing it, consuming it, and not adding anything to it? When 2nd genners in the US listen to Bollywood, I agree that it is due to a cultural impulse. And some 2nd gen groups (Koreans, Vietnamese, Philipinos) do not really consume culture from their parents' countries at all, so in that sense the Bollywood-imbibing crowd is a step ahead of them (and this gets back to my point about certain cultures having an appeal and others not). But the Bollywood-thumpers are mere consumers, not creators or artists. Similarly, when Gujaratis celebrate Navratri, yes the 2nd gen dances enthusiastically, dresses up in Indian finery, and celebrates their heritage. But it's sort of fossilised, and the actual singers/musicians are usually 1st gen performers. For the 2nd gen, it's quite passive. But uniquely, the UK bhangra scene is full of creativity on every level (musicians, singers, producers, dancers) from the 2nd and 3rd gen. The only thing they have not managed to do by and large is write songs, which are all either traditional folk songs, or new songs written by 1st gen Punjabis or people still living in Punjab. However the number of dhol, tumbi, algozey, etc. players in the 2nd gen is impressive. Singers too. DJs and producers. You yourself pointed out the efforts of someone like Mukhtar Sahota in a previous thread. What a beautiful album he released. More than that, the cd's which are being released, are all products of the UK, from recording to manufacture. It's a whole industry. I just don't see other desi (or even non-desi) immigrant groups doing all this stuff. And I think it has helped British Sikh youth maintain a very strong sense of identity and culture. You are right though, UK Caribbean people have also been quite creative with their parents' culture too, musically speaking.

that was very gouda sahej.

but that Intern guy is giving me the cheddars.

but that Intern guy is giving me the cheddars.

Is he for real? I think all this is very edam-up .

Is he for real? I think all this is very edam-up .

The provolone is in the pudding and the faux sista-hood.

The provolone is in the pudding and the faux sista-hood.

maybe moderating just brings out the muenster in us.

maybe moderating just brings out the muenster in us.

maybe we've just lost the whey

Gautham (post #90):

I would agree that Bollywood (nowadays) is largely Punjabi Hindu culture, expressed through the medium of the Hinglish language, mishmashed with Bombay sensibilities, and with the NRI audience also firmly in mind.

maybe we've just lost the whey

But I'm queso confused

feta iz gross.

But I'm queso confused

mostly we just chew the feta

mostly we just chew the feta

but i havarti bad feeling about this.

Amitabh,

But uniquely, the UK bhangra scene is full of creativity on every level (musicians, singers, producers, dancers) from the 2nd and 3rd gen. The only thing they have not managed to do by and large is write songs, which are all either traditional folk songs, or new songs written by 1st gen Punjabis or people still living in Punjab. However the number of dhol, tumbi, algozey, etc. players in the 2nd gen is impressive. Singers too. DJs and producers. You yourself pointed out the efforts of someone like Mukhtar Sahota in a previous thread. What a beautiful album he released. More than that, the cd's which are being released, are all products of the UK, from recording to manufacture. It's a whole industry. I just don't see other desi (or even non-desi) immigrant groups doing all this stuff. And I think it has helped British Sikh youth maintain a very strong sense of identity and culture. You are right though, UK Caribbean people have also been quite creative with their parents' culture too, musically speaking.

I don't think Punjabi diaspora culture is unique in what has been done, although I am very happy that its been done. I love Punjabi culture and am really glad its around, grateful for the musicians, connoisseurs, dancers, everyday listeners, and mad boosters (like you). without it all, who knows what would have happened to our culture, which indeed is full of spirit. In fact I think there is a lot of lessons that remain to be learned about Punjabi culture, including peaceful co-existence of multiple, strongly held beliefs and cultural practices. I saw it often but, the syncretic nature of Punjabiyat goes deep and there's much to delve into there.

Thats in part what is missing from what you are holding though as the unique part of how Punjabis retained and re-molded the (our) culture. I see one of the greatest strengths of Punjabiyat as a rogues belief that you can't hold down ideas or the spirit behind the one of the strongest currents on Punjabyiat, which is love. Love for one's family, one's comrades, one's sisters, one's land, one's beliefs, and love, in the end for whoever expresses their own authenticity. Punjabiyat, at its best, is an embrace of any kind of authentic (heartfelt?) expression.

I think given the nature of Punjabi culture and history, British Sikhs were well-placed in their efforts, since Sikhs are in some ways minorities in every place they live. They (we) have developed a culture that creates these tendencies, through music, food, clothing, the narrative we give to our history, and other folk-ways. These cultural aspects were there for British Sikhs to use in their efforts. Its the same cultural aspects that sometimes, though, give us a sense of being besieged. Its not for nothing that Tjinder Singh of Cornershop sang a lyric like, "sleep on the left side, keep the sword hand free." Thats a powerful emotion for us, and gives as a guide-post. I think some people are not aware that some of these aspects are not simply song lyrics, they resonate deeply with people. But we need to make sure, I think, that we breathe a little and realize, we can't do anything single-handedly and what will come out is what will come out.

But, I don't think its useful to say there is something unique going on here. I don't think its accurate for one, and for another, its more fun in a way to let things flow and accept disparate strands of inspiration from any cultural environment that comes along. One tends to stagnate if we focus too strongly on being different or unique.

Peace brah!

Sahej: Excellent comments, thank you. Additionally, the UK as a nation itself gets a lot of credit, since it (unintentionally) provided perfect conditions/mentality/lifestyle for this creativity to be possible. It never happened in Canada or the US.

For all those who want a concrete example of what I'm talking about, I just chanced upon this video on youtube (although I had the cd that this medley is taken from). Where else other than the UK will you find this..just amazing. Check out these young Scottish Sikhs.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4fq3CwtBKKQ

i found this video its awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QF_gMQKFBs&NR

Check out these young Scottish Sikhs.

Mr. Mac-Singh lol.

Amitabh,

re: #114

You're right in all of your points. British Sikhs have generally been at the forefront of cultural innovation here in the UK; even GGM is dominated by Punjabis, albeit Hindu rather than Sikh (except for Kulwinder Ghir, of course). The influence of music cannot be underestimated -- there have been different desi musical genres involved, as Red Snapper correctly mentioned earlier, but bhangra was instrumental in originally providing a focal point for 2nd-Generation desis of all backgrounds, especially when coupled with the social gatherings associated with it.

I can remember what it was like when everything really started taking off, during the early 90s; until then, rap was the main type of music which young desis looking for a somewhat boisterous outlet could identify with. Bhangra basically became regarded as "our own version of rap" -- because of the nature of the music and the aggressive tone sometimes involved (Surinder Shinda's album "Putt Sardaran De" is a good late-90s example of what I'm referring to); during that time, many (South) Asians here still felt uncomfortable about going to "mainstream" clubs, for various reasons. Weekly/bi-weekly "Asian" nights at various clubs in London and elsewhere in some of the major British cities provided a place for desis to go to as an alternative, where they could still experience the full clubbing, well, experience, along with dancing to music which was "ours", and in an environment where they would not be the "outsiders".

These gigs became huge -- you'd have people from all over London (mainly college students) arriving at the biggest weekly "bhangra night"; annual college Diwali shows were also major events, as they involved DJs and often also live bhangra acts -- the largest celebrations at various campuses across the country would even involve many busloads of desi students from all over the UK turning up. In any case, the atmosphere at the desi club nights in particular was fantastic, especially as it was all still relatively "new"; Sikhs/Punjabis would of course consist the core participants, but plenty of desis from all other backgrounds would also enthusiastically join in (yes, including Pakistanis, both guys and girls), and it was all a superb unifying force for (South) Asians as a whole.

It's because of memories of those times in particular, along with the "we're all in the same boat" atmosphere during my college times (and for a couple of years later), that I think the apparent regression of British South Asian Muslims (esp. Pakistanis) in recent years -- particularly post-9/11 -- is such a tragedy in some ways. 7/7, radical groups such as HuT, Danish cartoons, the ongoing homegrown jihadi plots and the support for extremism etc just provide even further examples of how much things have changed, along with the marked increase in burkhas etc as I've mentioned before.

Following on from this:

You mentioned British Pakistanis, and that in your view part of the problems they face result from too much adherence to ancestral culture...but I don't think it's language or culture per se that is getting them into trouble, it's religious extremism...

Correct, but my point was regarding excessive adherence to the negative aspects of ancestral culture. The religious element for British Pakistanis adds fuel to the fire and, as you've rightly stated, is a major factor too.

Sahej made some excellent points in #125 too.

***********************************

Racism was obviously something we all faced, and as I've occasionally mentioned previously, until about 10-15 years ago the attitude towards desis and our depiction in the media from the perspective of the mainstream population wasn't so different to the current unfortunate situation for desis over there in the US. Both Sikhs and desi Muslims were at the forefront of rectifying this -- both in the public sphere and in normal daily life -- but the difference is that while Sikhs (and Hindus) have to some extent moved on from the underlying anti-white and anti-Western attitudes, a disproportionate number of Muslims here have not. They're still maintaining the prejudice towards Western culture and the racism towards white people that is endemic within the older desi generation as a whole. Hence the problems.

PS Amitabh & Sahej,

I hate to use other commenters as "case studies" (especially as I've inadvertantly been on the receiving end of this a couple of times myself), but the kind of anti-Western attitude and ideas repeatedly displayed by R.K.Khan on this thread and several others (eg. the "Shorba Nazis" thread) is a prime example of the problems and underlying causes which I've been talking about.

It's all very familiar, and this kind of rhetoric is exactly the kind of mentality displayed by the Muslim social misfits here who are both unable and unwilling to integrate satisfactorily into British/Western society and culture, the "armchair jihadis", and (in the worst cases) the extremist groups.

while Sikhs (and Hindus) have to some extent moved on from the underlying anti-white and anti-Western attitudes,

.....especially after 9/11.

New video by Specialist n Tru Skool

I am deeply sorry for having caused a scandal. I shouldn't have said I found melas cheesy. I should have been respectful to Asian culture and said they were paneer-y. ;p

But for the record, I don't actually know any of the SMers, outside of a few scattered e-mails with Anna over the past 2 years. And while I have hung with Bong Breaker a few times (met him via SM, actually!), I have yet to see him breakdance. We're hoping to get him onstage this weekend at Abdul Smooth's Indian Electronica Festival. ;) (Red Snapper, you local?)

Balle balle balle! (and the gori hoi-hois off into the sunset)

Jai: I was lucky enough to spend the summer of '98 in London. Although I was staying in Chelsea/South Kensington area (beautiful neighbourhood, with really gorgeous goriyan janaanian), most of my free time was spent in Southall, including many of the weekends. I got a glimpse into the desi world you described so eloquently in post #129. Saw some melas, kabbadi matches, lots of great music, met great people, had langar very often, and really developed an appreciation for desi UK. B21/Bally Jagpal were huge that summer. You guys have something special going on there. My only regret is not going to Birmingham...I'd have loved to check out the scene there too. What surprised me was that desis who were from 'nicer' or 'whiter' neighbourhoods, really looked down on Southall as a poor ghetto with paindoo people...most of them avoided it and couldn't understand my fascination with it. They didn't even go there for the food, which in my view is some of the best desi restaurant food I've ever had. Have things changed?

Sahej: Bikram Singh is one of the few good artists active in North America. His albums kicked ass, he can sing, he got great producers (from the UK) to do the album from him, AND he wrote a lot of the songs (apparently he grew up in India until almost his teens or something). Here's a great video which was filmed right here in NYC:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=usYefwfMIIk

"I had very much the same experience in college. At first I avoided the Indian scene because whenever I told people I was studying to be a writer instead of a banker or engineer or doctor, they would give me the same patronizing BS as my parents' friends back home. But eventually, when I did try to integrate myself into the scene somewhat, I was struck by how little it resembled my own background. Again, not saying this is a negative, but it's interesting how some parts of the desi diaspora can be just as foreign to some of us as Western culture. I ultimately felt very out of place at the bhangra shows and Garba events at my college, and the only cultural activities I ended up a part of were the Hindu Student Council events. But even those tended towards Holi and other North Indian festivals; I finally started to realize why places like Chicago, Detroit and others have such strong Tamil Sangam organizations. I think it's because India is such a diverse place, that more and more Indian-Americans (myself included) are rejecting the idea of a pan-diasporic identity in favor of simply preserving the cultural trappings that we feel a part of and not feeling obligated to import everything wholesale across the pond."

I don't usually comment on the boards, but I totally identify with what you're saying here. South Indian culture isn't really regarded as being "desi" at all, even though its contributed a lot to the overall idea of what popular "Indian culture" is.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that most south indians who immigrated were educated professionals and there was a lot more emphasis on promoting religion and classical arts like bharatanatyam and carnatic music. You can't suddenly take a classical artform and make into a club music, like you can with bhangra. So you either rejected all of it, or you stayed within those boundaries.

But there's an incredible amount of innovation possible within the boundaries-the problem is that you can't learn it for seven years and start being "innovative" because its way too short of time to have any real in depth knowledge. Most kids who learn classical music or dance only study till they can have an arangretram. Plus, if you want to do fusion, you got to be knowledge about western music theory as well.

Whereas you can learn bhangra, the dhol or garba or sing bollywood vocals in a very short period of time.

One observation that I've noticed is that south indian kids in the US are really the only ones who have made attempts to preserve their classical arts more than any other diasporic group.

Radha:

It's unfortanate that yourself, Gautham, and presumably other South-Indian Americans have had these negative experiences. Speaking for myself, I always had (and still have) a lot of esteem and regard for southern Indian culture. I love the sound of Carnatic music, and I find the temple architecture to be beautiful (which I mentioned on another thread a few weeks ago). Many of my relatives enjoy south Indian food and have it whenever the opportunity arises. I myself enjoy dosas if made well (one of my friend's mom makes it awesome). When I was in Singapore in May, and had a delicious south Indian meal, as well as heard really rhythmic Tamil bhajans blaring from the shops, although I recognised that these things were very different from my culture, yet I still felt they were desi, and in a strange way they made me feel more comfortable in what was otherwise a largely Chinese environment. Diversity is the name of the game and it would be horrible if everyone conformed to some kind of Punjabi model of what it means to be Indian. I do agree, just based on my own observations, that for young, college-going South Indian ABD's, who may have come from very white-washed, non-Indian environments in high school, etc. and are trying to find or define a desi identity as young adults, the pressure to fit in to a north Indian or Punjabi/Bollywood/Gujarati template is very powerful. As for south Indian kids holding on to classical traditions more than other groups, that's probably true. Most Punjabis (and Gujaratis) have a village background and thus are able to transmit village culture like bhangra and garba to their offspring. Most Southies (in the US) have urban, professional backgrounds, and do not really possess south Indian village culture, but do try to transmit high-end art forms like bharatnatyman and carnatic music. But honestly what I see happening is more of a fusion...at all the south Indian weddings I've been to, bhangra and Bollywood music have played prominent roles, including a Keralite Christian wedding in NYC...it's because people want to drink and party (at the reception at least) and there's nothing better than bhangra for that. OK, I'm rambling now, let me just end by saying that I for one do appreciate the cultural contributions of south Indians.

Amitabh,

Although I was staying in Chelsea/South Kensington area (beautiful neighbourhood, with really gorgeous goriyan janaanian),

It's a very wealthy area of London. I guess the closest equivalent would be Bel-Air or Beverley Hills in LA. King's Road in Chelsea is quite famous (it was apparently the centre of action during the late 60s). And yes there are a lot of model types wandering around there ;)

What surprised me was that desis who were from 'nicer' or 'whiter' neighbourhoods, really looked down on Southall as a poor ghetto with paindoo people...most of them avoided it and couldn't understand my fascination with it. They didn't even go there for the food, which in my view is some of the best desi restaurant food I've ever had. Have things changed?

Well, Southall's still a pretty hardcore Sikh/Punjabi area, although in recent years there have also been a growing number of Pakistanis and (I think) Somalians there. When I was a lot younger it was regarded as a slightly rough neighbourhood; not so much during the past 10 years or so, although there are still occasional arguments on the street which turn into small disturbances, and apparently it's not a good idea to leave an expensive car lying around (ironic when you consider the number of Beemers and Mercs Indians owned by Indians there). But there are many new restaurants on Southall Broadway, the street itself is very vibrant and there are lots of expensive desi clothes stores too, along with the usual music/video stores, convenience stores etc. Nice place to hang out during the summer. There is a huge new gurdwara there too which you may have heard of.

I don't currently know anyone who lives there, but I did have some colleagues a few years ago (2000) who were originally from Southall. From what I was told, the area has its merits and it's okay to visit, but it is quite insular and conservative in some ways. I guess people like to move on from there once they reach a certain financial level or generally want to broaden their horizons.

and really developed an appreciation for desi UK.....You guys have something special going on there.

As I mentioned, the Punjabi influence has played a huge part in shaping the "flavour" of UK desi culture, and on the whole I think it's been a positive influence. Some of the older non-Punjabi Indian generation don't like it, for obvious reasons, and of course the problems within the British Pakistani population have poisoned matters to some extent too. But life for Indians in general is cool, we've had to grapple with a lot of the intergenerational and intercultural issues you're currently having to deal with in the US and I think that generally people here are moving forward positively.

I'm probably going to show my age from the perspective of any Brits currently lurking on SM, but the best bhangra nights in my experience were "Bombay Jungle" at The Wag in London, followed by the same at "Limelight" -- this was early-mid 90s when the UK desi scene was really kicking off big-time. There had previously been a very famous "desi night" at a club in the capital called the Hammersmith Palais -- a bit before my time -- but it got shut down and banned because fights kept breaking out !

Typical.....;)

There used to be "daytime bhangra clubs" too -- again before my time -- which you may have heard of. They were a compromise because the parents didn't like the idea of their betas and betis clubbing into the night. It seems quite a quaint idea now.....;)

Agreed about the pressure to conform to Bombayite/Punjabi culture. For some reason fluency in Hindi and a love for Bollywood is seen as the litmus test for 'Indian-ness'.

Jai:

I've been back to Southall many times since '98, most recently in Nov. I was just wondering if the perception that middle/upper-class, better-off desis have of it has changed. You're right, it's a lot more Somali now, and I did sense that as soon as someone is economically able, they try to move out of there (countered by those who have innumerable ties to friends/family there and really enjoy it and wouldn't dream of leaving). That huge gurudwara is nice, really looms in the skyline. I've heard it's mostly empty and people prefer the Singh Sabha closer to the Broadway (near the train station). It's not only the desi angle I love about the UK... I really enjoy the country as a whole, the vibe, the feel. When I'm landing in Heathrow and look out the plane window and see London below, to me it's a wonderful feeling. If money was no object (and in the UK, not only is money DEFINITELY an object but my particular profession also does not tend to do very well there, at least compared to the USA) and if the weather was better I'd probably consider living there, even if for only part of the year. And English women...don't even get me started.