It’s not the Sepia Mutiny model to just post news items without comment, but sometimes the material doesn’t leave us with much to add. With that said, here are the latest developments in Bombay dining:
NAVI MUMBAI: A new restaurant at Kharghar has actually been named as Hitler’s Cross and it was inaugurated by the who’s who of Navi Mumbai on Friday evening.
A huge poster of Nazi leader Adolf Hitler was put at the inauguration function of the restaurant in sector 4 of Kharghar, much to the surprise of the invitees.
Actor Murli Sharma, who has featured in films like Apharan and Teesri Ankh, was one of the guests present at the inauguration. “I found the huge posters of Hitler at the restaurant amusing. That’s all I can say,” he told TOI over phone.
When asked if he felt disturbed by the name of the restaurant, Sharma said: “I am not really agitated as I have not read much about the man (Hitler). However, from what I know about Hitler, I find this name rather amusing.”
Important dignitaries such as Navi Mumbai mayor Manisha Bhoir and former mayor Sanjeev Naik were also invited as chief guests to the restaurant by one Sablok Builders group, who are reportedly behind the management of Hitlers Cross.
A Reuters report picked up by DNA has more:
“We wanted to be different. This is one name that will stay in people’s minds,” owner Punit Shablok said.
“We are not promoting Hitler. But we want to tell people we are different in the way he was different.“…
“This place is not about wars or crimes, but where people come to relax and enjoy a meal,” said restaurant manager Fatima Kabani, adding that they were planning to turn the eatery’s name into a brand with more branches in Mumbai.”
Someone in Mumbai is going to have to do the investigating on this. A field report from Manish, perhaps?
AMUSING?
Okay, lets start amusing...
what is next?
the genocide grocery store?
idi amin's dosa shack?
kadafi's kati roll?
mao tse tungs tea shop?
ridiculous.
i call a macaca boycott ..
Disgusting. Utterly disgusting.
*On a somewhat related note, I can't stand those Che t-shirts and all that Soviet-type iconography.....ick.
Oh, the 'all that Soviet iconography' wasn't meant to refer to Che, but, uh, you know what I'm getting at.
chick pea, don't forget to try the Roast Schoolboy at Bokassa's Bar & Grill...
There are just no words.
not limited to brownland. a japanese soft drink company used him to promote their brand.
In my openion,in general Indians are relatively less anti nazi than the Europeans or the Americans.This is not to say we support them,but because we were not affected by facism as the Europeans neither we were directly involved in the war.So its understandable that people are not as sensitive as the others are.
It's about time.
We have a KGB bar here in NY. Che Guevara t-shirts are still in style. There's a "House of Mao", restaurant in Singapore. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
I'm thinking about opening the Aparthied Restaurant & Bar...for those with discriminating taste.
WTF...G Quotes "People are being indifferent in pursuit of being different"..Shame on such ignorance..maybe they might even put up a mel gibson poster up there..F**in Page 3 Idiots..Page 3 my Ass..i wonder if those celebs could read even 3 pages.no wonder they have filled them pages with pictures..
"We are not promoting Hitler. But we want to tell people we are different in the way he was different.
yes, nothing induces relaxation and enjoyment more than a photo of Hitler.
and this was the best example of "being different" they could come up with? perhaps mumbai's jewish community could enlighten them on how hitler was "different." given the actor's statement about not knowing much about hitler and the above comment, i wonder if it's not intentional malice but just ignorance stemming from a lack of knowledge? i mean it would make more sense if they actually expressed some sort of admiration for him and knowledge of him.
kumar's logic is correct. volga germans who emigrated to germany within the last 15 years still used the word 'furher' in everyday conversation (not relating to hitler) and what not. they had to be reeducated to speak post-1945 german.
Stalin Samosa Shop.
Mahmud Ghazni's Mouthwatering Masala Dosas.
Al-Qaeda Atrocity Appetising After-dinner Snacks.
Jalebi Jihad Junction.
Kill-the-Kafir Corner.
Mlechcha Morsels.
Partition Pizzas.
As I mentioned once on SM a while ago, "roasting" means something very dubious indeed here in the UK, so Siddhartha's suggestion is actually even worse than it sounds.....
siddhartha:
oops.. how could i forget?
and a friendly reminder to patron these stores:
ferdinand marco's pita hut
castros cigar shop
ayatollah khemeneni falafels
kim jongs juicy juice
robert magabe's margaritas...
the way he was a mass murderer? okay... and you're a restaurant? okay...so do we need to hire our own taste testers to make sure you're not poisoning us? i mean how RETARDED are these people? i'm embarrased to be brown right now... seriously...embarrased...
I understand that people in India in general are not much affected by the happenings of WWII, but at least everybody know about the great number of people that perished during the Nazi regime? At least they could show some sensitivity? It'll be like opening a Jinnah Cafe in North India.
On the topic of communism, I think that the reason that Soviet logos are not so reviled is that the original ideal of communism wasn't mass extermination of certain sections of the population, though the Gulags took a great toll on the Russian people. I'm not saying that I agree with this logic but I believe this is how it is. Besides, most people I've seen who parade around in Che shirts and bags actually don't have the faintest idea exactly who the guy is who's being depicted on their clothing.
how many in the west know abt the partition? or anything abt the long bloody history of the subcontinent in the last millenium? to many indians, if anything, hitler is the just the look alike of charlie chaplin in the great dictator. not everyone in the world cares abt the west.
This just goes right along with the TV crew that assisted suicide. What is wrong with us?? I say "us" because these people really are representatives of the Indian community. Whether that's right or wrong, it's human for other people to jugde these people and form opinions about the entire Indian community. The world's image of the South Asian community--at least in South Asia--is rapidly becoming tarnished by stories like these.
Bytewords,
It's very well-known in Britain.....
.....but not so much is known about pre-colonial times, although generally people have heard of the Mughal Empire.
^^^^^
not that i support it, but i think i can understand they actually meant
while doing what they did. but still i really think they should change their name.
quote
but at least everybody know about the great number of people that perished during the Nazi regime?
I don't think many people in India know the extent of atrocities committed by nazis.The general idea about Hitler in India is "Hitler is a bad guy".Thats all.The ones who know are who have in some way or the other an interaction with people of other nationalities and you can imagine out of 1Bn how many have that.
Another reason for this might be the potrayal of Hitler in Indian movies-mostly an object of comedy(toothbrush mustache anyone?).
I understand that people in India in general are not much affected by the happenings of WWII
One of the most bloodiest theater in WW II was the Burma front.
Around 50,000 Indians died in WW II, fighting on various fronts, including the Battle of Al Alamein in North Africa (Montgomery-Rommel), Malay front (a lot of surrended soldiers went to join INA).
There used to be magazine Imprint, where one of the historian wrote about India and WWII - it is very complicated because of Quit India Movement, Indian British Army, Legacy of Mountbatten of Burma in India (Vice Supreme Allied Commander), Netaji Subhash Chand Bose, and why Field Marshall Rommel was once a household name in Bengal.
I am not surprised about Hitler cafe - "Hitlerwallah" is an idion in India
There appear to be serious problems in India regarding sensitivity to other cultures and their respective peoples. The endemic, unthinking racism (all "just jokes", apparently) towards people from other countries and ethnicities (including frequent examples within the Indian media) is another example of this, as we've all discussed previously on SM.
Someone should open a restaurant called "Jallianwalla Bagh Junction", and then perhaps certain people will see the point. Not so funny and "harmless" after all.
Imagine how the American natives, "indians", feel, when they see the eulogizing of columbus..
Pol Pot's Pot Roast
Pinochet's Pickle House
Bush's Burger Heaven
The problem with this game is that the world has experienced way too many despots. That doesn't excuse the idiots who named the restaurant however.
It's a sort of cultural ingnorance. One year during Diwali a cousin (who just arrived in the u.s. a few months before) wanted to put a swatika in christmas lights on the front of the house. From his point of view it was a perfectly innocent expression of faith.
One five minute history lesson later. problem solved. (It doesn't take long to explain "killed millions of people for no good reason")
Assuming this was a naive move on the part of these businessmen, is there a way to get through to these people? If there's contact information for these guys anywhere maybe we could send them a link to the wilkipedia entry on the Holocaust.
Yes, I did get some education in the dark ages: at school in India and Pak I rarely heard about Hitler's dastardly deeds. MOST Asians in Asia do not know much about Hitler or apartheid or black slavery for that matter.
my kaka hitler bhai sends his best.
Yahoo News is carrying a picture of the restaurant here
The DNA link doesn't seem to be working any longer.
um..the hil:
the hindu sign is vastly different than the nazi swastika...
it's turned differently...
then:
for hitler to demonize this fantastic symbol is also atrocious...
I know a part of the war took place in South-East Asia as well,but that's not really what I meant - the most famous battles happened in Europe, and of course I was specifically talking about the Holocaust. (Though, in the Notre Dame de Paris there is a plaque to commemorate the Indian soldiers who fell in WWII, fighting for the Allies.) I thought at least it was known in India that Hitler was a bad guy who killed loads of people. Ah well. (How many Indians still remember the Burmese front by the way??)
the swastika motif is found in many cultures. unfortunately, people forget to notice the way they turn....
the most famous battles happened in Europe
hey now, mebee in europe the most famous battles happened in europe, but don't forget the pacific theater. iwa jima? guadalcanal?
Since the manager is Muslim I will assume the owner is to, but I'm sure the intense dislike Muslims have for Jews has nothing to do with this.
This is just another example of rich people in India who have no brains and dont have to fear any competition from anyone.
but if this restaurant is a success then I will be opening a Rawanadan House of Genocide and Pancakes in India soon.
what's also annoying is that they brazenly feature the nazi swastika (a distortion of the hindu/buddhist one) in a country where the symbol has an altogether different significance. people who don't know anything about the swastika's origins already equate it with only evil, this will make it even harder for hindus/buddhists in the west to educate the public about the differences.
Chick pea, I think the point was that it might not sit very well with the neighbourhood if the façade of the house was decorated with a huge glittering swastika....(most in the West have no idea about it's Sanskrit origins)
#33 is really strange as spam goes.
I agree it is disgusting. But, Hitler is not considered as evil in india as he is considered in the west. Many hard-core indian nationalists (like the RSS idealogues..) admired hitler for giving Brits the finger. India's Subhash Bose hoped to join the 'Axis of evil' to fight the british.
Since the hil said:
"It's a sort of cultural ingnorance. One year during Diwali a cousin (who just arrived in the u.s. a few months before) wanted to put a swatika in christmas lights on the front of the house. From his point of view it was a perfectly innocent expression of faith.
One five minute history lesson later. problem solved. (It doesn't take long to explain "killed millions of people for no good reason")"
I would suggest that he/she also take a look at the wiki article on swastika. When I was a kid, on Ganesh Chaturthi in India, we maked up our textbooks with swastikas, in vermilion and turmeric. If I repeat this now, would I be called a neo-Nazi? :)
One of my posts has been deleted. It was meant to be sarcastic. But if the admins thought it would have caused problems and deleted it, am alrite with it. Sorry if I offended anyone. Didn't mean to.
Ken
I am just picturing all the talk on Bill O' Reily and new talk radio.
This is not good at all. I am sure this will be on The Daily show tonight, unless there is a rerun
meena:
i see the point, however, it's nice to educate the people around you who don't know what it means...
for example... i decorated my clay pot back in pottery class in high school with hindu swastikas since it was going to be used for puja purposes..my teacher FREAKED out... yet i explained, with written evidence (way back in the day before online wiki and such) of what it meant.. it educated and enlightened... teaching and learning from one another about culture might make for more peaceful and tolerant times..
chick pea,
Good Point but...
You know the difference, I know the difference, but do you expect the average american to care?
As much as I hate that the Nazi's appropriated the symbol for their propoganda, as far as the western hemisphere is concerned it doesn't matter how it's oriented, the damage is done. Especially when seen out of the context of Ganapati's palm.
I never said cultural ignorance was mutually exclusive ;)
"If I repeat this now, would I be called a neo-Nazi? :)"
Nope, youd be a paleo-"nazi"
actually, i do...
most people i know are interested in learning..
as am i...
we are all in the dark otherwise..
and that leads to the stupidity as seen above...with the restaurant...
another thing is,in Indian movies Hitler os portrayed as an object of comedy (toothbrust mustache anyone?) and majority on Indians get their gyan from movies.So its only expected that no one really knows much.Who know the extent of Atrocities are just a drop in the ocean (literally!)
chick pea,
most people are cool with being educated. i even know a guy from a jewish background who converted to buddhism who is now pro-buddhist swastika.
but it takes time out of your day.
It is never about being PC when it comes to business in India (which I deeply despise). They openly practise all sorts of discrimnation, be it by basis of caste, religion or community. So, it comes as no surprise to me that someone has used Hitler's name to promote his shop. I wont be surprised if someone opened a shop with Osama as theme either.
Also, the adminstration or politicians cant do much about it because, they themselves never cared about being politically correct either. In Laloos land, if they can buy a vote for 1000 rs, who needs such hindrances like ethics and morals. Indian democracy is like stock market, short sighted and long-sighed.
of course it does..
as does posting on SM ;)..
we each learn from one another..
the beauty of blogging and reading..
some of the most important things take time..
time is precious..
and educating and learning is also precious..
just depends on what you find to be important...
to each their own...
Indian movies Hitler os portrayed as an object of comedy (toothbrust mustache anyone?) and majority on Indians get their gyan from movies
Sure, they do like Asrani "Angrazo ka Jamana ka Jailer" in Sholay. However, the origin lies from Charlie Chaplin's Great Dictator not Hilter himself.
Hitler's Final Solution has never been discussed in India at school level sans few "Coffee House/ Max Mueller Bhavan/ British Council Library" intellectuals.
Remember, both the world wars were heavily funded by Indian raw materials in addition to soldiers. If you go to New Orleans' "D-Day Museum", you can see one of the RAF bombers that was named after a Punjabi village.
Some of you people are just bursting with excuses arent you? Your saying these people have the intelligence to open a major restaurant with celebrities and all coming to the grand opening but dont know who Hitler is?
These people are not the same people, who are digging well's in villages for water and think that streets are literally paved in Gold in America.
On another note, Karunanidhi (Tamil Nadu's chief minister) has a son called Stalin. Stalin is a politician himself. The fact that the original Stalin was a brutal dictator has never been highlighted in India the same way that it has been in the West.
Yeah, how 'bout that, sister macacas and brother macacas? There were many mass murderers, but Hitler is always shown as the main man. I don't think this has anything to do with "It's because Jews run America" kind of theory (sounds like exaggerated BS to me). I think it's simply because he did his stuff right in the middle of Europe, in full view to Europeans, who and their descendents seem to have a lot of say in how history is written and taught today.
Business in India is all out dirty. Its only a matter of time before they open a restaurant where you cant be darker then khaki in order to enter.
same way that it has been in the West.
well, stalin is not odious in the west either, just as communism gets a relative pass in comparison to nazism.
Subhash Chandra Bose sought both German and Japanese support for the Azad Hind Fauz (Free India Amrmy), and believed that the enemy of the British were India's allies. Remember that the Third Reich sponsored Azad Hind Radio as well, in which Bose declared a government in exile. I believe he was critical of Hitler's treatment of the Jews and eventually grew disillusioned with him when he did not show enough interest in India's independence.
Check out Shyam Benegal's movie on Bose, which includes a meeting with Bose and Hitler.
51
Who says celebrities (anywhere in the world) have any intelligance ;)
Free Speech proponents becoming so furious about naming a eatery ??!!!.... woh! take it easy guys....Hard Rock Cafes have Ganesha & other Hindu deities in their bar section! We all seem to tolerate it very well.....!!
[VERY unnecessary further comment deleted. We get your point. - Admin]
isaac tigrett, one of the founders of the hard rock along with peter morton (first one founded in london on park lane 1971--yes i have a super fascination with the HRC), follows Sai Baba and hence you will see hindu photos around each of the hard rocks.. he has carried this onto his next empire of restaurants 'house of blues'... it was something that he wanted to do..similar to hindu restaurants portraying little mandirs, chinese nail shops having their buddha shrine, and some ismali shops having the photo of agha khan....
just some background fyi..
re:the post: WTF?!
I once drew swastikas in red marker on my hands, in imitation of the markings on Ramchandra's hands in my favorite movie. My British schoolteacher knew both sides of the problem, explaiend it to me, and I both stopped and went to the library and checked out a biography of Hitler and a history of WWII. I'll take every opportunity to educate peopel about the difference in the Swastika, and I'm not going to give up the right to use the Hindu one, but neither will I rub it in people's faces without the opportunity to explain what it really is.
Suraj is right! This is free speech and there is no place on earth more free then India.
Suraj, you just took 1st place in the idiot of the day contest.
Free speech goes both ways, buddy. That's why we're all giving our opinions about this idiot move. See? Right there, free speech :)
#62 was to Suraj
chick Pea " it was something that he wanted to do..similar to hindu restaurants portraying little mandirs,"
Hindu restaurants definitely portray little mandirs at the cashier, mostly to have a "blessing" for the business to run smoothly and prosperously!!..Hard Rock Cafe using Hindu Deities for "Decoration" purposes and not for any specific devotional or religious purpose.
That's a big difference.
Its OK to support South Africa's apartheid govt. by the US, officially. Its also OK for US to ELECT apartheid supporter a0hole as VP, but not OK if you say anything about the white people's good war. Thats the only real war you know, rest all black and brown people's wars dont mean sh$t. Dont you get it. And yes, give up that Swastika too. I dont care how many milleniums you used it as an auspicious symbol.
suraj:
no, it's not all decor always (i'm not for his placement..) and can understand the frustration with it...
aah... but let's focus on the topic at hand..
nazi restaurant.
Shallowthinker!!???
Sorry, I can't beat that one! :)
Any predictions on what's likely to become of this place? It's already one of the most famous restauarants on Earth, thanks to its "different"-ness. Will it draw protestors? Will it draw supporters to counter the protestors? Will authorities shut it down because it causes too much community trouble? Nothing like this could exist in the West, so I'm curious.
I guess the owner of this restaurant made a poor choice while naming it.
At the same time, I don't feel overly offended by this. There are tonnes of similar examples in different cultures.
People in Britain still 'respect' their queen..their numerous lords and viceroys who killed millions of Indians.
ChickPea "aah... but let's focus on the topic at hand..
nazi restaurant"
Correction: Not a Nazi Restaurant. Its named after Hitler. Do not conclude otherwise.
I am Ok with HRC using Hindu Deities anyway they want..I don't care about it. Just that, you are somehow so enthused to pick on this issue with more fervour than, I personally think it asks for. Yeah..agreed, naming a restaurant with Hitler's name might be disagreeable...make it known. No need to ensure that, the owner HAS to take off the name.
Another gem from South Korea
">http://www.pusanweb.com/feature/hitlerbar/
Oh..and I fogort to mention that I WILL NOT eat at 'Hitler'....even if its free. :)
this is why i'm hoping manish will go check it out. after all, movie stars are hanging out there ;)
who of course:
and thousands of people in india look up to these people..
please.. spare me..
Thank you ethnic, for the link to the Korean Hitler bar article. I actually feel bad for poor Mr. Hong, who really had no idea what he was doing.
Nina P,
I agree, he seems to have been misled by his decorator unlike the restaurateur in India who clearly threw caution to the wind, on a different note I once went to school with a girl named Democracy
Another such incident: In 2003, a Hong Kong fashion company designed clothes featuring Nazi symbols and used the Nazi symbols for decoration and advertising.
Its from Little Green Footballs, a conservative political blog. They have also covered the restaurant story.
It could be that they took their business idea from the guys who made "Springtime For Hitler"...
Hitler! hee hee... mmm. Hitler's funny.
Hitler Bar-freshly squeezed juice available.
Maybe they should call the resturant "Bad swastika" (Hitler's cross) to contrast against the proper one.
Problem solved/people educated :)
hmmmmmmmm... education
My sister put the hindu swastikas by the door steps of her apartment. Most of the people who lived in her complex were jewish, so when she did this during Diwali, a few concerned neighbors came by with puzzled looks on their faces. They just couldn't put two and two together. My sister got everyone together and gave them a nice, detailed explanation. Once explained, everyone left satisfied knowing their Indian neighbors weren't Nazis and actually quite pleasant.
Shorba Nazis -> 77 comments
Bismillah Khan RIP -> 9 comments
??
My sister got everyone together and gave them a nice, detailed explanation. Once explained, everyone left satisfied knowing their Indian neighbors weren't Nazis and actually quite pleasant.
Wonderful story, and your sister is bold. We went with Ganesh on our wedding invitation and nixed the swastikas because we didn't want to confound the non-Indian contingent.
AAieee..!
it must be a nimboodiri conspiracy.
Down south (of India), Hitler only refers to over-protective brothers who stand in the way of their sisters having a good time.
true. it kind of bothered me too. but then i remembered that one Yo Dad comment is worth at least ten!
Gujudude and Desitude:
I sympathize with you both. A couple of years ago, my son's daycare wanted the children to come in with "ethnic" clothes so my wife chose a panjabi with swastikas on it. As our daycare was located in a primarily jewish suburb of Chicago, and owned by a Jewish couple, I found it tough to explain to my wife (who is Indian but educated abroad) why this wasn't a good idea. Unfortunate situation!
It's probably dangerous to say this, but at some point the swastika and other Nazi imagery will stop being taboo, maybe 50 to 100 years from now. Commercialization tends to suck the meaning out of all symbols, which is why t-shirts and other consumer items with peace symbols or pictures of Che are so banal. The pictures of the Hong Kong Nazi-themed clothing shop (thanks Ken) make the Nazi symbols look as harmless and watered-down as any commodified logo. The time will come, and designers will have a field day, since Nazis put much skill and effort into their graphic and fashion design, expert propagandists that they were. But now is definitely not the time.
The best comments about the swastika so far have included a vital component. There was both an opportunity to address the issue and a willingness on the part of the confused to listen and accept something new.
Gujudude's sister and Saheli's teacher are great expamples of how to preserve our heritage in the "new world"
I've clearly been too cynical on this issue. Thanks for the insight.
Now seriously... NAZI RESTURANT!?!
The reason why I posted a sarcastic comments is because India is the ONLY COUNTRY in the wholw world where the Jews were not persecuted, whereas Europe was responsible for the horror that the Jewish community had to go through. Yet India still has to apologize for Europe's sins?? WTF??
The reason why I posted a sarcastic comments is because India is the ONLY COUNTRY in the wholw world where the Jews were not persecuted, whereas Europe was responsible for the horror that the Jewish community had to go through. Yet India still has to apologize for Europe's sins?? WTF??
1) you're wrong. google "the jews of kaifeng" (china).
2) get a sense of perspective.
ZeeTV already had a miniseries on (I think it was earlier this year or late last year), called "Time Bomb 9/11" (I think - forgive me if I misnamed it). It revolved around Osama and plans to bomb something or another - I couldn't bring myself to watch such insensitive corniness. Who does that?
btw, if you want a brown spin on the holocaust, the gypsies are from india. this isn't just a "jew thang."
Why is it so troubling? Is leaving a comment necessary when reading the post? There really isn't much to say on 'RIP' threads other what was already said (particularly by Yo Dad). Plus, you'd probably see more comments if the audience that posts was far more connected to his music.
It was a nice post dude and good to see you folks keep tabs on news such as this. He definitely deserves attention. The public that posts in the commentary, I would guess, is probably a mere slice of your audience - a minority. What is the hit count on that post? The word is out if people read it, thats all anyone can ask for.
The double standards and hypocrisy! It's anti-Indian racism!
Hail Macaca Mogambo!
Assuming you are right about China, how does that make my comment "wrong" about Europe's sins ??
And give me a f@cking break with your know it all BS. I have been to Israel (Haifa, my previous company has a big office there and switches in Ramallah too), I never saw any Asian looking dude over there. I do however know several Indian Jew as a co-worker of my previous company, who emigrated from Israel. In Haifa office also there are quite a few Indian Jewish people.
The whole Chinease jew thing is clinton-esq logic. Its technically true but everyone knows that it doesnt mean shit.
Also, my cousin's neighbour in Thane, Mumbai is an elderly Jewish person.
Everyone in the world agrees that what Hitler stands for is bad sh$t. Talk about perspective.
RC,
i really don't know what your problem is. you're pissed cuz we're shitting on some guy promoting hitler?
GauthamPerhaps the two are related....I mean, the attitude underlying this man's decision to name a cafe after Hitler and the discrimination practiced daily against a whole range of Indians. I'm not sure one isn't an aspect of the other.....
What can I say? It's a necessary step. The poor downtrodded white visitor India needs an oasis to get out of the sea of madness, if Indians are allowed into hostels, they'll become
hostile! Especially Hindus! Nothing riles up RSS and BJP emotions like inexpensive housing and shared restrooms! And the pools must be off limits, or else the Hindu extremists will aggressively start
a scuba swim force to swim all the way to the arabian penninsula and gloat over how cool our pools are and how sandy their deserts are. This cannot happen.
Hail rubber duckies!
No worries shallow, I'm working on it! It's called Klan Kafe. The visual motif for the waitstaff is white cone-shaped hats and flowing white robes.
Rest assured, judging patrons by khaki-ness is so 19th century colonialism. I, and my horde of celebrity friends, prefer the paper bag test.
The Gujarat Daily
Food Section-
New eateries announcements - G & G [ Gahzni and Ghori] restaurant. Food served on gold and silver utensils. Location , adjacent to the on again off again, Somnath Temple.
Also opening - N. Modi's bar-b-cue, where the oven is always fired up and the meat is always roasting. Location, next to the uber chic, Best Bakery.
Who cares? The West doesn't know anything about India or its history. Hell, I wonder if half of the people here can even locate the country. So why should we give two shits about the West and its history? WWII and Nazism did not affect us that much and the Holocaust is just another footnote in our history books. Thus, I don't see what the big deal is. I don't think the restaurant is trying to support Hitler, it's just a gimmick and should be regarded as so. Any outrage over this is absurd.
Excellent points Gautham....though a bit off-topic.
There might be a connection too...worth discussing.
The reason why I posted a sarcastic comments is because India is the ONLY COUNTRY in the wholw world where the Jews were not persecuted, whereas Europe was responsible for the horror that the Jewish community had to go through. Yet India still has to apologize for Europe's sins?? WTF??
I don't know but i have read (forgotten where) that Bani Isra'el communities in India were subject to fines and persecution, sometimes brutal. Jews throughout the ME, Arabia and Central Asia were persecuted at times.
Wherever the jews were a minority population or ruled by surrounding non-jews, they were likely persecuted. Get used to it. By the way, I wonder how these oriental jews do wrt IQ/mental performance. Are Kaifeng jews as bright as the Ashkenazis?
Thanks, Gautham. You make sense.
Where was everybody when they opened an American chain called 7-11, to unapologetically celebrate the July 11 Mumbai train explosions? This is a slap on the face of every Indian. As if Indians weren't already stereotyped as being closely connected with convenience stores.
Fei:
Um. Why should we care? Because we are human with a conscience (well most people are). The West might be somewhat ignorant (generalizing here) and so are we on certain issues... If people didn't care..we'd be inhuman I believe..
It is a gimmick, but a gimmick with an evil root... that breeds discontent...
Discussing issues with those who are foreign to Indian history/roots/location is a start... knowledge for the ignorant is light.. (damn I am sounding to sound like Mommy Chick Pea)...
If we ignore it, don't respond, etc...we'd just be like the 'ignorant West' as you put it...
You know, it might have not affected me personally, but I have friends who have certainly been affected by it.. just because you don't suffer, doesn't mean that you shouldn't care about the pain that another person has or is going through...All this 'this,them,ours,their's' BS is ultimately the cause of all our disharmony in the world today....
And to end with quoting my most favorite song by Depeche Mode...'People Are People'
People are people
So why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully
So were different colours
And were different creeds
And different people
Have different needs
Its obvious you hate me
Though Ive done nothing wrong
Ive never even met you
So what could I have done
I cant understand
What makes a man
Hate another man
Help me understand
Except the present day USA, in fact, it's somewhat the opposite.
What I did want to call attention to is the way that Indians have basically made racial distinctions acceptable, and even heirarchical in our society, with Caucasians, NRIs and brahmins squarely on top.
The Brahminicals (priestlies) and Rajputs, kshatrys, Kamboj, and Sindhus (warriors) were the defenders of classical India, since times immemorial. And these people, yes, have more Europid physiognomies. The hierarchy is based on thousands of years of our history. There is more grand history relating to the north, where heroic Pactyans have been dwelling from antiquity. The Pakhtun is in our blood, as is the Turk, both physically more europid than sudras and dalits, who have not contributed as much to the cultures, maybe because of bad luck have having to do with genetics/IQ or injustices. These proud, fair-complected northern men are the ones who conquered, ruled and established themselves within the system. They have spread the royal blood as far as the Bengal, and so you will see Bangladeshis claiming Brahminical, Persian, Afghan or Turk ancestry. I am not advocating discrimination, just stating realities. It's all good. Worth Taking pride in our History, if u ask me.
Except the present day USA, in fact, it's somewhat the opposite.
no!
Except the present day USA, in fact, it's somewhat the opposite
nah, this isn't true. I have thought this through, but it just doesn't square with the realities I have seen on the ground. Though we do have a huge population of Chistian Zionists in this land, a very bad thing if you ask me.
Oh dear. Alright, let me clarify. In certain instances, and in certain industries, Jews are overrepresented, and by no means are they persecuted in the present day USA.
Yea, with all the BS that's going in the world let's express fake outrage over an obscure restaurant in India...let't get our priorities straight.
Knowledge is fine and dandy, but the importance given to Western history by Indians is disproportionate to the importance given to Indian history (and culture) by Westerners....which in actuality is NIL. Which is why you get faces of Indian Gods on toilet seats here.
So it affected your friends...so what? Most Indians were not affected by WWII and the Holocaust. I am not justifying the opening of the "Hitler Restaurant" but it is simply a gimmick with no "evil" intention. Expressing outrage over this is, again, absurd.
Good luck in your fantasyland, but this is how the world is today. The West still associates India with either curry or cow-riding beggars. Thus, Indians accomodating to "Western" sensibilities is a non-issue...what next? Ban the Swastika because it is associated with that one instance of the many massacres in human history?
The West still associates India with either curry or cow-riding beggars.
LOL. that was a funny image.
The West doesn't know anything about India or its history. Hell, I wonder if half of the people here can even locate the country.
sir, you a correct here. I have read that an astonishing number of westerners (Americans in partic.) could not even find north america on the map. In addition to this, Americans seem to believe that everyone East of Isra'el is a Hindoo, and that everyone south of the border is a wet-back(derog.lol) or Mexican. Again, I stress that these are Americans more than others.
Hi guys, excellent website. A newcomer here - interesting post. Very clueless move by this fellow in new mumbai - i'll echo many of the commenters in saying that there is a lot of nonsense back in the des - cannot believe how cavalier some of the locals are about this ("hitler? oh, how amusing...")
I know a few Indian Jews from the rapidly diminishing community (there is a VERY interesting Indian Jewish temple in Queens by the way - an interesting blend of the 2 cultures during services, worth a field trip if in NYC).
But what is what a couple of these commenters ("MD" and "Manju") at the beginning of the comments equating this travesty to Che Guevara tshirts?? How can you compare Hitler to Che Guevara?? Are you guys Rush Limbaugh subscribers??
Knowledge is fine and dandy, but the importance given to Western history by Indians is disproportionate to the importance given to Indian history (and culture) by Westerners....which in actuality is NIL. Which is why you get faces of Indian Gods on toilet seats here.
No, sir. It is only a minority I believe that are obsessed with western history. More South Asians are obsessed with their own history, which, imo, is a much healthier sign.
It is only a minority I believe that are obsessed with western history.
count me in that group. because it is my history. :)
Some chutia opens an obscure and stupid restaurant in navi mumbai and mutineers are up in arms about how 'those Indians are insensitve boors.. they should have at least thought about the Jews na..' These same mutineers would whine if something named after an imperial lord or a medieval thug was renamed/taken down.
I can understand Indians in India not giving much thought to Jews, but desis in the US have an awful lot in common with Jews here. There are many parallels, from the pressure on girls to preserve the culture, to expectations of offspring becoming doctors and lawyers (and attendant family freak-outs when the occasional rogue turns to the arts, which I experienced first-hand), to dating and marriage dilemmas, identity questions, culture vs. religion vs. ethnicity, loyalty to more than one country (I'm definitely not a Zionist, but many American Jews are), not speaking the same language as your grandparents (or great-great-grandparents, since the big wave of Ashkenazi Jew immigration occured several generations prior to desis'), a heritage of guilt (a journalist from Delhi was telling me about Indian Mother Martyr Complex, but he'd never heard a Jewish Mother joke! - it was my pleasure to enlighten him, and he laughed and laughed)...on and on. I've been thinking a lot about this since I started reading Sepia Mutiny over a year ago. This blog has given me a new perspective on my own family history.
and by no means are they persecuted in the present day USA.
Well, i'll put it this way: jews aren't exactly loved either.
Nina P - you bring up good points. Another thing is a large amount of hindu indian support for israel, for better or worse, as it is a voice against islam/pakistan to these guys.
now, i think that is the wrong reason to find common ground with the Jewish people - but you outline some of the good ones.
count me in that group. because it is my history. :)
razib, you seem to know the nooks and crannies of every era of every history for every culture in every part of the world. The whole world is your history:) At least, that is my impression. ;)
nina, you're amerikan, i'm amerikan. thatz enough for me to care about the showa.
Thanks for your well wishes...fantasyland or not...
Obviously as stated in an earlier comment I wouldn't ban the swastika, heck i'd educated those who are not familiar with it's earlier usage.. just because some idiot (hitler) used it differently, doesn't mean i should stop using it... as you see in an earlier statment..
Were you raised here? I heard and had to endure 'Dot Lottery' 'Bindi Bingo' comments... Oh 'you're vegetarian, does that mean the mowed grass is what you eat?'... some parts of this country are more ignorant than others... and yes, most people in this country can't even FIND the USA on a map let alone a foreign country...
Doesn't matter.. just because others are ignorant, doesn't mean you have to be..
Another thing is a large amount of hindu indian support for israel, for better or worse, as it is a voice against islam/pakistan to these guys.
That too? I was depressed enough when I read that Baluchistan has aligned itself with Isra'el.
Nina,
You have brought out some very intelligent parallels. I have heard similar Mother Myth from Russia (Maxim Gorky's novel) and even from Arab friends.
Also, in India (my comment #.49), I think everyone is not aware of Hitler's Final solution. However, recently, India and Israel have become quite close.
Hitler resturuant is just done in bad taste and/ or ignorance. I am sure Bombay Jews will make enough noise and let the guy see the light. Some education in the process will help. I do not think owner was History major from St. Stephen's College (Delhi U.) or a Dosco, to begin with.
I also agree if we had Chengiz Khan eatery then it will not that offensive, as it happened long time ago.
SatyaP:
Yes.
Hitler was better looking.
Seriously, it's not just Che but communism in general. Certainly Mao, Lennin, Stalin, and Pol Pot would be comparitable to Hitler. I saw a CCCP baseball cap the other day. But I am of two minds on this one. The view of Hitler as pure evil prevents us from understanding his appeal, especially among the likes of Joe Kennedy and Martin Heidegger at the time. Communism gets a pass b/c it is the opiate of the intellectuals and it is the intellectuals who write history. Hitler's appeal to nationalism and racism is much more working class; he represents the "other" in the minds of the educated.
But che is easy for many of us to identify w/: his looks, his idealism, his education, allows us to make excuses for his totalitarianism. And I realize you cannot understand him w/o considering the fact that he genuinely wanted to represent the wretched of the earth. But does that really distinguish him from Hitler?
I also agree if we had Chengiz Khan eatery then it will not that offensive, as it happened long time ago.
should i change my last name? :)
"And I realize you cannot understand him w/o considering the fact that he genuinely wanted to represent the wretched of the earth. But does that really distinguish him from Hitler?"
Ah, yes....pol pot and stalin etc. are ONE thing, Che is another. Hitler wanted to represent the wretched of the EARTH?? I think not my dear poster. More like an embittered failed artist lashing out (with horrible consequences) at what he perceived as the group holding him back - oh, as if...
PS - the words woud be "Lenin" and "comparable"
oops, "would", not "woud"
Hitler's appeal to nationalism and racism is much more working class; he represents the "other" in the minds of the educated.
just a quibble, but the national socialist party had broad cross-class appeal by the early 1930s (with perhaps a slight tilt toward the petite bourgieos, but i'm working off memory).
Seriously, it's not just Che but communism in general.
Nah, I deeply disagree and object to this. Amrikka and it's "communism-as-satan" tales have got westerners in a perpetual anti-commie frenzy. It's all econo-political hatred.
"And I realize you cannot understand him w/o considering the fact that he genuinely wanted to represent the wretched of the earth. But does that really distinguish him from Hitler?"
Oh yes, "Manju" - I forgot to mention that the SIX MILLION+ dead Jews/Gypsies/etc. might well slightly distinguish Che Guevara from old Adolph... But that is just me.
che geuvera:otto skorzeny
True enough, but it would also distinguish Hitler from David Duke...but I still wouldn't be wearing a david Duke t-shirt...but hey, that's just me.
An interesting analysis about Hitler and India on the Deutsche Welle web site:
In India and its South Asian neighbors many people still celebrate Hitler like a hero. When students from St.Stephens elite College in Delhi were recently asked, who they admire most of all people -- six out of ten named Hitler.
On the other hand many people believe that Hitler had a special liking to India -- after all the German Nazis adopted the ancient Indian symbol of fertility, the Swastika, and they referred to the Aryans in their racist doctrine. But in reality Hitlers opinion about India was quite different. Link
"Manju" - connecting Guevara to a David Duke is flawed logic at best - nice try. Have you ever been to latin america and talked to the "wretched" about what they make of him? Can I use the term "wingnut" on here?? ;-)))
An interesting analysis about Hitler and India on the Deutsche Welle web site:
I wonder how many of you here think that Fidel Castro is a wicked man, a demon almost. Such data would allow me to see where ya'll fit in the box, as it were.
About the other Kumar on this thread:
It wasn't me (for, I think, the 3rd or 4th time?...a losing battle I'm in, isn't it? ;) )
Regards,
Kumar
Certified as the better sort of Sand-N***** by Razib the Atheist ;)
no kapz in my mame please.
Sorry, "Vikram" - the Aryan thing in India is a bit of myth - sadly, it has propagated and you'll need to provide a link that works about all this. If the stat you state is true, very sad, beyond words.
Razib:
Damn, R., you're quick to the keyboard! The kapz were just a token of the high esteem I have for you ;)
Regards,
Kumar
SatyaP:
Doesn't that link provided with the excerpt work ? If not here it is:
http://www2.dw-world.de/southasia/germany-india/1.134171.1.html
You're observing a human universal. dictators (or would-be dictators) don't emerge out of a vacuum, but rather often have the "will of the people" behind them, as machiavelli often noted. hitler was elected and many in russia still love stalin and lenin.
i'm not putting che in th same class as the above, if that is your concern, i'm only pointing out his totalitarian leanings. after all, he did have something to do with one of the longest lasting dicatatorships of our time, a dictator that has considerable popular support (like most).
i don't disagree w/ what you say about che's popularity, i only add that the same could be said about hitler at the time. his appeal cannot be reduced to mere reactionary and xenophobic forces, although that is a major part. consider why men like martin heidegger found naziam appealing. as susan sontag once said, "Communism is fascism with a human face"...and i think this is most appapro to che; since so many only know his face.
hitler was elected
quibble...quibble...but he was appointed chancellor in a coalition government.
btw, talking about che is taking this thread off target! let's focus on how ignorant indians are please....
damn, i knew you'd get me on that as i typed it. i only meant to provide evidence to one of machiavelli's major piece of advice to would be princes, that the most powerful weapon one has is the will of the people. as he put it one time, which is very apprapo for all of us: No matter how powerful ones armies, in order to enter a country one needs the goodwill of the people
Thank you Manju for the elaboration - i do hear what you are saying, but i still, even though I am no fan of communism as policy (and of course, any rosy ideals, left OR right, are always corrupted by the powers involved - in the US these days, it happens to be the right, given their control of all 3 branches of gov't), cannot put the two (com. and fascism) on equal footing. But I do appreciate your explanation.
Vikram - sorry - i think my internet was acting up - the link works how. How sad, these results. But do some research on the Indian Aryan myth - Hitler's "Aryans" are not the same as what we are thinking of/take "pride" in, fullstop.
ps - razib, you cynical bastard, we can still focus on desi ignorance!!
SatyaP:
Unfortunately, I have no access executed cuban peasants. And for some reason, I cannot visit the Cuban labor camp system, which Che founded.
But since we cannot speak with murdered or jailed cuban dissidents, I guess we should just put "The Butcher of the Cabana" on a t-shirt and celebrate his idealism.
most powerful weapon one has is the will of the people. as he put it one time, which is very apprapo for all of us: No matter how powerful ones armies, in order to enter a country one needs the goodwill of the people
yes, sure, but the point about hitler being appointed via byzantine machinations in the german electoral system is often used to show that the nazi party did not have popular legitimacy. a majority of germans never voted to them (i think they topped out at 35%).
SatyaP:
sorry SatyaP, the sarcastic #152 was written b/f you softened your tone.
The Pakhtun is in our blood, as is the Turk, both physically more europid than sudras and dalits, who have not contributed as much to the cultures, maybe because of bad luck have having to do with genetics/IQ or injustices.
Dude, you're out of your mind. Everyone knows Pakistani's inbreed to idiocy. In the UK muslims perform well below everyone else on the a levels and o levels, so we can posit that the cultural practices of islam lead to a low iq. The UK had to issue a health warning to the community there - and its an untalked about causal factor in uk jihadism. Whereas the "sudra" South Indians have built a knowldege industry ;-)
"Well, i'll put it this way: jews aren't exactly loved either."
Name one ethnicity.., or pseudo-ethnicity that is.
um, chick pea? I think that's "kadafi's healthy wrap bistro -- grand reopening! completely remodeled! now back from bankruptcy!"
It's OK Manju - but your views still trouble me - the way you describe Che still seems lifted from Rush et al...
Why, as a brown-ass indian person, do you feel this way? Our people have been exploited through the ages like a motherfucker (and by people I mean the "wretched" you speak of) - I find solidarity with what Che was doing for his peeps, even if I do not agree with all his views/actions (though you have taken some liberties there). All I can think, is that you are/were part of the elite who stands to lose (literally or figuratively) based on such populist views....i know many such desis.
I find solidarity with what Che was doing for his peeps
look, don't make this about rush. no one is perfect. but many of the secular saints on the modern left have many blemishes. if a conservative icon talked about the congolese the way che described them in his diaries there'd be hell to pay. comparing che to hitler was dumb. but there is something creepy about the glamorization of violent radicals who had no compunction about crushing people underfoot for the sake of their "big dream."
Our people have been exploited through the ages like a motherfucker
our people? puleez. some of my ancestors burned the temples of my some of other ancestors. my recent ancestors received their sinecures and peasant renters by mughal and british fiat.
the rhetoric of exploitation suits the scions of enslaved africans. it certainly doesn't suit me, and it doesn't suit many of those here at SM. many of us come form privileged backgrounds in the old country and remain so in the new country, and there are many poor whites who would pay a pretty penny for my white collar brown ass's life. i've experienced racism, but i wouldn't trade my life for a second for the typical white american.
To give it a 32-year-old-fob-bengali-middle-class-bangla-medium-free-public-school perspective, the hostility against Hitler and Nazism was very muted when and where I grew up and it was not that rare to find fascination and almost an admiration for him in some circles. History of Indian freedom struggle including Netaji Subhash Bose's enemy's-enemy-my-friend tactics was taught vigorously and Jewish genocide was mostly a non-event.
The depth and width of the awareness of Holocaust in American mindset was a surprise to me when I came to US nine years ago. I am sure West Bengal's fascination with socialism and communism and Subhash Bose being a son-of-the-soil bias this observation quite a bit, but maybe it holds some value for other parts of India.
From Hazaaron Khwaishein Aise - when a leftist leader compares the local politician/thug with Hitler in a political rally, one villager asks another - "iye Hitler kaun hai" (who is this Hitler?) and the other villager replies - "maloom nahi, hamara gaonka nahin hai" (don't know, not from my village).
don't know, not from my village
LOL.
i've experienced racism, but i wouldn't trade my life for a second for the typical white american.
That makes two of us! ;)
This is not a first. THIS IS NOT A FIRST. My friend (a perfectly happy rowdy Punjabi) in New Delhi calls his Chihuahua-like dog 'Hitler' and even makes him wear a silly red t-shirt with a Swastika sometimes. I've told him he'll run into shit with the Swastika ... but ... then the guy's own name is 'Honey'. Serious.
have been an occasional lurker here for a while but figured i'd finally say something...
the reaction seems kind of way over the top...i mean you guys (chick pea, saheli) have no problems 'educating' the americans around you about the swastika but the moment some dude in mumbai names his restatraunt hitler you flip out and start acting as though it was the end of the world?
and just to clear up any possible misconceptions...ignorance in india isnt hard to come by...forget about knowing hitler i have met the mothers of north indian friends of mine who believe the whole of south india consists of madras, and couldnt name a single language spoken down there...so some ignorant jackass CAN have enough cash to open a place called hitler with little idea of what it actually means just the same way that britney spears and K-Fed have more cash then most of us can dream of getting our hands on without knowing what year this is
so if it hurts so much go 'educate' these people the same way you educated the americans around you but cut the sanctimonious indians-are-racist speech...i know they are but i think you can do better than some restaraunt in mumbai
Cerealkiller, i LUV your handle.... (a reisling tonight)
razib - you make points trying to be fair and balanced about right and left (i did not say good points), but you are so clinical about all this, you seem to have lost much of your humanity.
by the way, do you actually have a job? - you seem to post on here so often, with such exuberance (hit refresh repeatedly lately?), one may assume you have nothing better to do.
my job involves the computer. do you know what tabbed browsing is? if not, download firefox :)
what does tabbed browsing and firefox have to do with hitting refresh with obsessive vigor??
if you (and some of the wingnut posters here) are representative of some semblance of a brown "mutiny," i dunno, i am ashamed of being brown.
if you (and some of the wingnut posters here) are representative of some semblance of a brown "mutiny," i dunno, i am ashamed of being brown.
LOL. d00d, be proud of who you are. mebee it should give you perspective on identifying closely with any "community."
A very pertinent paragraph from the link Vikram gave.
Dont jump to conclusions that I admire Hitler.
razib wrote:
Why is Western History your history? I thought you are ethnically Bangladeshi.
Bottomline: It's not ignorance, which would be not knowing about Hitler at all (aka, "he's not from my village"), but globalization-led half-knowledge. You get that a lot in up-and-rising Asia, in Bombay, in Singapore, Hong Kong, Seoul and so on; people have heard about, or seen, all these firang-log symbols, and have decided to try it out as a flavour. Which is why I can understand when the manager said that all that they were trying to do was be different, even though I can't exactly approve of eating out amidst Nazi insignia.
Point is, as India opens up even more, expect to see more of these cringe-worthy attempts at standing out.
Incidentally, thought I'd point this out, but we fought on both sides of the war, in both the Asian and European/African theaters. Military exercises were, you must realize, one of our first outsourcing gigs, mostly an off-shoot of our East India Company heritage.
bengali,
by belief and not by blood shall the truth of you be known to your fellow man.
i'm american. by accepting that citizenship (i'm naturalized) i took upon the sins and greatness of this country. just as my ancestors turned their backs on their hindu cultural history and accepted a muslim one, i do the same. no difference.
and for that matter, when my ancestors shed their tribal gods for the gods that the brahmins brought with them from the west. man isn't born, he's created.
what does tabbed browsing and firefox have to do with hitting refresh with obsessive vigor??
dude, you gotta hit refresh often, the comments keep jumping in. You been spying The Meter (Sitemeter)? This site is quite popular with well over 4M visits, though even that's hardly worth mentioning comparitive to such blogs as Malkins. Generally, when a blog is over 7 million visits, I would reconsider the quality of it's material. And yes, Firefox is da bomb, lol
i'm american. by accepting that citizenship (i'm naturalized) i took upon the sins and greatness of this country.
Applause!
LOL dude, aren't you the one who popularized the term sand n****. You will always be a sand n****.
LOL dude, aren't you the one who popularized the term sand n****. You will always be a sand n****.
being an american and a sand n**** aren't disjoint.
i'm american. by accepting that citizenship (i'm naturalized) i took upon the sins and greatness of this country.
razib, funny i don't see it the same. I have taken no such identification with Amrikka. Not particularly because it's western per se, but because of the kind of country it is, what I believe it $tands for.
Surely 'my history' means the history of my ancestors. What THEY did is 'my history'. When one accepts citizenship they become part of the future history of the nation, they cannot retrospectively be part of the past just by adopting the same beliefs!
if you want to parse the issue of identity precisely, i would say it this way
* there is the element which will never accept us
* there is the element which will never treat us as an individual human
but should that element be judged the sum of my our fellow citizens, and the sum of republic? i say no.
in relation to by talk about sand n****,
* i brought that up when hindus try to assert that they can distinguish themselves from muslims when violence approaches. the reality is that the element which is ready for violence will never be disuaded by "facts"
* as for our community's "color" issues, to those to whom we are sand n****, we will always be brown, no matter how "fair" or "dark," and those who accept us as full citizens and equals will not think well of us if we display the prejudices and biases of our cultural past, nor do they particularly discern them to the granularity which our own cultural background does
Surely 'my history' means the history of my ancestors. What THEY did is 'my history'. When one accepts citizenship they become part of the future history of the nation, they cannot retrospectively be part of the past just by adopting the same beliefs!
1) this is exactly what jews assert when one converts to that religion
2) generations of americans have lived this out. the history of their family might start at ellis island, but the history of their identity as americans goes farther back
3) you don't know the history of your ancestors with perfect accuracy, and, you bias your perception of your ancestors toward a particular direction.
identity is not like genetics, you can't read off a sequence of DNA. your own perception of your history is created by the choices you make.
"4m visits" here???? pageviews perhaps (And that even sounds a stretch), not visits. and "malkins"?? why do you mention her of all people, RK Khan?
razib - wtf are you talking about with this "when my ancestors shed their tribal gods for the gods that the brahmins brought with them from the west. man isn't born, he's created" rhetoric - you are pushing it man. and with the whole "i'm american. by accepting that citizenship (i'm naturalized) i took upon the sins and greatness of this country." you sound like a bit of a sand macaca (though a hedging one)....
i guess a lotta ppl have mixed up totalitarianism and communism .. communism , in its roots, had pretty decent objectives .. how it was handled, was a different issue !
i took upon the sins and greatness
I feel that there is no obligation for the adoption of sins and obligations. I, as the "Other", have absolutely nothing to do with WASP enslavement of "negroes" or the progress this country has made becoming an imperialist econ-cultural superpower. Amerikkans are "not my people". In fact, I am not really sure whose people they are, or what one is.
identity is not like genetics, you can't read off a sequence of DNA. your own perception of your history is created by the choices you make.
But being brown IS genetics. You are South Asian. Period. (If youre not then I take that back).
As a naturalized citizen, you cannot even claim birth in this land. so in popular perceptions I would argue youre still considered a foreigner by the great majority. and please, popular perceptions matter.
you are also constitutionally constrained, you can't become President, so you're less of a citizen than the born Ams. pragmatically no sand n***can become President, but still, the constraint is real.
so in popular perceptions I would argue youre still considered a foreigner by the great majority. and please, popular perceptions matter.
not the great majority. i've lived in this country for 25 years. there's been a big change. i only get "what country are you from?" from the 40 & older set.
"Are you saying you learnt nothing from your parents?"
what you "learnt" (sic), aka identity, is not genetics, other features (like your face, skin, height, etc.) are.
Are you saying you learnt nothing from your parents?
that isn't that far off.
who i am is far more in marcus aurelius' meditations than the hanafi commentary which is my "genetic" heritage.
"4m visits" here???? pageviews perhaps (And that even sounds a stretch), not visits. and "malkins"?? why do you mention her of all people, RK Khan?
see for yourself
4mm visits TO DATE, since this includes multiple counts of the all regulars, it makes sense - i thought you were referring to a more frequent time period rk khan.
hm. just to be clear on something: about 50% of personality variation is genetic, and about 10% is attrituable to parental socialization. the other 40% is unaccounted for. judith rich harris in her book the nurture assumption offered the hypothesis that that 40% is peer group socialization. so, my own personal experience is that my parents did shape, but it was through genetics. i do exhibit some of their personality traits. but in terms of values i have never shared their attitudes or perspectives.
Are you saying you learnt nothing from your parents?
that isn't that far off.
Razib Bhai,
You are an American citizen because of your parents unless you were a Doggie Houser, and you were given green card for your child prodiginess, then I stand corrected.
You are an American, you have ownership on this land, present, and future. However, you cannot claim being any part of the "blood and sweat" for Civil War, Dust Bowl, WW I, Vietnam War, WW II. I do not think your ancestors were running with Omar Bradley on Omaha beach or General MacArthur in Philippines.
Maybe, with Montgomery in North Africa. Or in the French trenches during WW I.
However, you can claim all ownership to equally rich history and the "blood and sweat" from South Asia: you pick and choose. Unless, you want nothing of it, well then, I am sorry.
its bin a while since i felt like dropping my 'do paisa' worth.....
political correctness is kinda a non-entity back in the des(open caste-wars,jokes on the physically challenegd in movies,sardar jokes,jokes on east asians in movies etc are examples)...and u cant actually take the idea of political correctness in isolation......political correctness comes from being a mature and evolved(loaded words i know) society in general and fobland is a million light years away from being one....
there are very few things from india that shock or surprise me and even though this one did not actually shock,it still made my guts wrench at the brazen stupidity.......f*cking morons....
hm. just to be clear on something: about 50% of personality variation is genetic, and about 10% is attrituable to parental socialization. the other 40% is unaccounted for. judith rich harris in her book the nurture assumption offered the hypothesis that that 40% is peer group socialization.
razib, do you know how much weight Harris' hypothesis gets? Does it seem like she's really on the money?
kush,
you are using two standards. there are many americans whose ancestors for whatever reason not have fought in this war and that war. so what? why can i claim all of south asian history? my family didn't go through partition in any stressful way. my family didn't fight in any wars, we were landed gentry who provided the ulams and kazis when necessary. our hands were soft, and our burdens were minimal. my family didn't fight the british when they came, they simply were reconfirmed in their 'ownership' to a plot of land which the mughals had provided. do the 50% of american's whose ancestors were not here in 1776 have no connection to the declaration of independence? can't the jewish civil rights workers claim kinship with the abolitions of the 1850s in fighthing for social justice because their ancestors were in a shtetl in eastern europe? can't black americans take any pride in the revolution even if their ancestors were slaves who secretly wished to join the tories who promised freedom? are rajiv gandhi's children as equally attached to the struggles of the italian garibaldi or to their grandfather? does 1/2 genetic inheritance of italian blood mean that italian history is as equally important in their lives?
razib, do you know how much weight Harris' hypothesis gets? Does it seem like she's really on the money?
there's nothing better. but i wouldn't bet the house. (and i consider judith a friend, so that tells you you need to cautious about taking her hypothesis as scripture as some have)
There is just no excuse for this kind of obnoxious behaviour. If the owners did it to attract attention via shock value - well, they succeeded. But at what price?
You are an American, you have ownership on this land, present, and future.
although your comment isn't addressed to me, I will bite: sir, I do not have ownership of any part of this land as it really all belongs to gov. I believe the Gov can knock me off any part of land I breath on. If they want land, they will take. Eminent domain and all. They will coerse me off if they feel it necessary. Culturally speaking, I do not own a gram of this land either. Don't believe the national Anthem/"This land is your land" hype. Americans aren't united → we are all a bunch of strangers.
there's nothing better. but i wouldn't bet the house.
Still doesn't exactly tell me just how good it is, but i will go with what you say. thanks.
razib,
I am using war as a "baptized by the fire" analogy - whether your parents were gentry or inquilabi, it does not matter at all. They belong to South Asia and have full ownership over its history.
You can feel full pride/ sorrow and kinship to the American past whether you were part of it or not. However, saying the "Civil War" is your history (had no stake or involvement whatsover at that time), and "Bengal famine" (affected your family) is not getting little out of hand IMO. I always thought Americans usually are very clear about when their ancestors arrived, when you discuss history with them.
You have every right for kinship but it all started when you claimed "western history" was your history.
Religous kinship (you gave examples of Jews), and being part of history are entirely different things.
Anyhow, do not take me too seriously.
ok, to be clear, many Americans are united, but count me out.
How about "it's your history because you live in this world"? Halo? Since when has one's history been circumscribed by the little pond in which one lives? You must not have read any history to say that Eastern and Western histories are exclusive. That is what they are precisely not. World Wars affect everyone. American politics has affected people all over the world. Trade has always had global ramifications. What's all this about Bengali history and my country's history? I've never read any history like that.
Religous kinship (you gave examples of Jews), and being part of history are entirely different things.
i used the jews for a specific reason kush. the jews, like the french, make a powerful effort to make you assume as if the metaphorical was the physical. that is, if you convert to judaism, you are to assume that your ancestors were at mt. sinai when moses brought the ten commandments. not just in spirit, but that those are now your ancestors.
i believe citizenship within a republic is a contract that the present makes with the past and the future. i don't shrug off what this republic did to the indigenous peoples and breaking treaties just because my ancestors weren't here at the time. by entering into the contract of citizenship the history, for good or bad, of the republic because part of my history. on a personal level my assertion may seem absurd, but as i note above, this is the norm throughout human history. the roman republic grew through the accretion of citizens who gave up their "barbarian" past and become romans of rome, whose forbears were traced back to the mythology of romulus and remus. polybius pointed to this assimilationist capacity in the roman republic as one of its great strengths, and contrasted it with the norm in greek city-states where birth by blood was the preeminent criterion for whether you were an athenian or a spartan, a metic or helot.
They belong to South Asia and have full ownership over its history.
I don't feel I have full ownership, as you put it, over South Asia's history, even being south Asian. Much in South Asia has not a thing to do with me or my ancestors.
As a naturalized citizen, you cannot even claim birth in this land. so in popular perceptions I would argue youre still considered a foreigner by the great majority. and please, popular perceptions matter.
you are also constitutionally constrained, you can't become President, so you're less of a citizen than the born Ams. pragmatically no sand n***can become President, but still, the constraint is real.
My experience has been that the perception of foreignness varies from place to place. Places which have very few "foreigners" might consider a South Asian a foreigner. On the coasts, and I can speak for California, I think these perceptions are far less, but it also depends on the individual to some extent. In fact, I would argue that perceptions of "foreigness" is far less in the Bay Area and New York than in most parts of the world.
I believe that there are only two restrictions on a naturalized versus a citizen by birth : one is that you cannot become President. The other is that you cannot become Vice President. Since there is a greater probability of my being run over by a bright red Ford Mustang with alloy wheels and a cassette deck, but not a CD player, than becoming President or Vice-President, it is, in my opinion, not a serious restriction.
razib:
No, but they were AMERICAN during this and that war, they shared something very important (they lived and participated in the same society during the same time) with those who did fight and that is what makes them part ofthe history of the country at that time.
We need to define exactly what history is - the most simple definition is a sequence of past events. The closest tie we have with the past is through our ancestors. So surely a statement like 'my history' can only mean the events and occurrences experienced by those I have the closest link to the past with, i.e. my ancestors.
For example, I consider myself to be a muslim, I share the beliefs of Saladin - but does that make the Crusades a part of my personal history? Hell no! Most of my ancestors would have been in South Asia at that time and had very little to do with the Crusades - so how can I possibly claim it as mine?
Chandi:
That's a naive and highly simplistic view. I adore British history from the 300 A.D to 1900 timeframe - that doesn't make British history my history just because I live in this world. I know, this kind of discussion is uncomfortable, as it eventually leads to the 'my history is better than your history' debate. But come on, who are we kidding by selectively choosing what is or is not 'our' history?
stop wrote:
If you must be pedantic please make sure first.
"The Re-Branding of Hitler"
I have to admit that when I read the original post, I found myself mildly amused. I promptly heaped scorn upon myself. However, once I investigated the source of my amusement, I discovered that as far as I was concerned, as an idea for farce it's all right to find the cafe funny, even hilarious. Sounds a bit Monty Python/Vonnegut-esque to me. The problem is that I think farce works only in the parallel universe realm of artifice and creates a sort of sinister cosmic clash when it's tricked out as anything other than what it is. It's like "Life is Beautiful" which I did not like because the way I saw it, what the film makers had on their hands was poorly-disguised farce trying its best to be earnest. Farce cannot be earnest. Farce is only good for being itself, essentially ridiculous, supremely artificial and thoroughly aware of both. That's the last thing the restaurant is.
I also thought of the South Park "AIDS is funny" episode. Can the idea of Hitler/the Nazis etc be funny? Yes, just watch Mr. Fawlty. Is the cafe funny? No, because they forgot the farce.
Just because it may not affect you, it doesn't mean that it is not a serious restriction. This restriction declares that there are two types of citizens - to me, that is pretty serious. If our friend Mr razib wants to become the President or Vice President, he can't because he is essentially a 2nd class citizen.
Not being a citizen by birth is, in my opinion, not a very significant source of disenfranchisement in the sense of the person being a part of the political process. My point is that becoming the POTUS or VPOTUS is a very, very low probability event for everybody, not just me.
Your being disenfranchised due to race or class is a far higher probability event (not even comparable to the POTUS probability), and a much more serious problem. It is one thing to have to say that you cannot be President or VP (and I don't for a minute say that this makes any sense at all), but it is quite another to have to say that you do not even have a chance to vote, or to, at all, be a significant part of the political process. In this context, if you look at the rates of incarceration of people based on race and class, you find a much more serious issue of disenfranchisement. The more the conviction rate of a certain race or class, the less they are able to use their political power to help remedy the social factors that lead to crime.
Damn, you gotta wonder how much MB/GB this site is allocated. Dedicated host? Some long comments threads. It is slowing my computer lol.
I wonder what drugs the people who named this restaurant were on. Is it possible for anyone to be so idiotic?
ADIA,
There are some very subtle differences between American-born (natural), and naturalized citizen....is the eye on the prize. POTUS is the ultimate prize.
I will give you some very simple examples:
During Manhattan Project, there were some incredibly talent naturalized American scientists - quite a few of them were Hungarian Jews, however, the project was headed by an American-born scientist, Robert Oppenheimer (very talented himself, no doubt and an American born Jew). I do not think they were not going to give stewardship for such a secret project to a newly minted American. It was Einstein and Szilard who wrote the letter to Roosevelt to start the whole thing.
Sure, last US Chief of Staff was a naturalized citizen, but he was the first. So was Henry Kissinger as Secretary of State, later Ms. Albright. Z. Brenzinki, Carter's NSA was Polish-born. This tells you that I can count them on my finger.
In 1988, a friend of mine told me, "Do you somebody like Dukakis name can be a President? So phoren". He was American-born but did not have an Anglo-Saxon name.
Some of the security clearances for certain parts of Defense/ DOE/ DOD labs become more difficult if you are naturalized American citizen, and more so if you were born in Iran, Pakistan, even China and India.
I agree with you on defranchisement of certain races.
I too agree with ADDIA regarding disenfranchisement of certain races, but I don't see how it is relevant to the restriction of non-US born citizens to become POTUS or VPOTUS. To me, this restriction signifies something rather distasteful, i.e. that they OPENLY do not trust a certain class of citizen.
RK Khan
By the power of Greyskull you are really deploying amazing arguments and showing these brown AmeriKKKan lickspittles what it means to be righteous in the face of this Zionist controlled excremental Nazi States of AmeriKKKa!
Mujahid Edward Said is cheering you from his grave. You are surely the most 'other' 'brother' of all time! So oppressed and marginalised. All we need now is to form some crews of other 'brothers' who are also 'other' in order to whip every brown slut we find showing her face to anyone not her brother or mother or father. The way that this society has corrupted our pure women is an example of how the yahoodis are destroying Islam and all that is pure in the world. These sluts need to be taught a lesson.
Every day I tread in infidel Earth, the poor oppressed slave 'other'. The Zionists should stop complaining about the Nazi restaurant in America. Ahmedinijad has proved it never happened.
Oh the oppression.
Death to the Yahood!
Kill the sluts who show their faces and tempt pure angels like you and me to lust after their shaved armpits and naked succulent breasts and pert nipples and bottoms and......astarifigullah! AmeriKKKa and the Zionists are corrupting me again and making me lust after sluts and making me into the 'other'!
They are destroying us!
I'm getting an erection --- the Zionists are causing me to have an erection!
Hail Al-Mogambo!
Yep. The bottom line, to use a cliche, is "two wrongs do not make a right". Just because certain people in certain parts of the West may not know about pre-colonial Indian history (or, indeed, cannot locate the country on a map), it does not mean that is an excuse for Indians to act in a similarly ignorant way, especially if they are affluent. It's been quite some time since India was culturally or literally isolated from the rest of the planet. Information is freely available these days. And another party's supposed ignorance or misdeeds should not be the reference point used as justification for one's own ignorance and insensitivity in the matter -- using another party's flaws to excuse one's own, tit-for-tat style.
If India is serious about the whole "saara jahaan se achcha" thing, and people there really do wish to have the moral "superiority" (especially over the West) which so many claim to have (individually and in terms of "Indian culture"), then there needs to be a greater degree of maturity all-round. Having the moral high ground isn't about the skimpiness of the clothes women may wear (or not wear), it's about how one treats one's fellow human beings and the sensitivity one has to their suffering, especially if the latter has occurred at the hands of others. A stupid analogy, but you get my point.
Someone should remind her of the horrors that Muslims were on the receiving end of during the break-up of Yugoslavia about a decade ago. Perhaps reflecting on that will place her own mindset and actions into perspective.
Wasn't there a scandal last year about some call-centre in Bangalore (I think it was for ICICI Bank, not sure) where the sales sttaff had a "jihad" theme, with posters of Osama Bin Laden everywhere ?
Outrageous. I hope Bombayites will have the good sense to boycott this stupid gimmicky restaurant and not give it more publicity or business than it deserves. I don't buy the argument that Hitler is somehow more benign in Indian eyes than elsewhere, we were taught to think of him as evil incarnate and the baddie of the century just as schoolchildren in the West were, though without the same level of immediacy. Anyone here remember the play Ek aur ek gyarah from the ICSE Hindi syllabus?
SatyaP: I wasn't equating Che with Hitler....sorry to take the thread off on a tangent.
I disagree the idea behind communism is a benign one and the problem lies only in the implementation. I always make a little joke that communism reminds me off my relationship with my ex: I had the ability to work and he had the need to sit around and use my money. Tends to put a girl off revolutions......I am paraphrasing a certain Marx quote, btw.
What a bunch of ignorant MORONS.....but lunacy regarding India and the Nazis has a history.....
Savitri Devi Mukherji
"Hitler" is a member of my family.
Yes, that's his actual name: Hitler Fernandes. And no, I'm not making this up. Hitler Uncle was born in 1950.
I think the name had something to do with his parents being anti-British.
solid post by vivek on this same topic. unlike me, he had some interesting analysis to add to the story, plus he's actually reporting from desh:
read the whole thing.
Root cause of this is lack of awareness about the holocaust, plain and simple. Hitler is seen as a megalomaniac dictator at worst by much of the population. There is some naive admiration for Hitler among some people, but it is quite a shallow admiration that has its roots in ignorance. Our history books, regardless of what SP said, do not do any kind of justice to the holocaust. This is compounded by the fact that every state frames its own syllabus. I grew up in Orissa, and if I relied solely on whatever history I read in school, I wouldn't even remember that the holocaust actually happened.
There is also this sneaking admiration for all kinds of dictators/tyrants, and as pointed out, there are plenty of people with names like Stalin, Lenin, Tito (yes!) in India. The communist parties of India always have huge portraits of mass murderers like Stalin and Mao at their conventions. Many people don't know/don't care.
Btw, in Melbourne, there are restaurants called Post Mao and Post Deng (both owned by the same gentleman, I think), and the menu describes the some of the fare as being "Chairman Mao's favourite" etc., and there are pictures of Mao/Deng looking relaxed, with their grand kids etc. If there's anyone from Oz here, I would recommend Gong Bao chicken at Post Deng :)
Kush,
There are some very subtle differences between American-born (natural), and naturalized citizen....is the eye on the prize. POTUS is the ultimate prize.
I will give you some very simple examples:
During Manhattan Project, there ...
True, there are other differences in terms of opportunities between naturalized and non-naturalized citizens. My point is that politically speaking, there are only two restrictions. Contrast these relatively mild restrictions with the restrictions in, say, Malaysia with the boomiputra laws or in the Middle East with no path to naturalization. This law hardly makes any difference as far as the American system goes.
When you naturalize, you agree as part of the contract that you owe greater allegiance to America than to the other country, and so you agree to take ownership of the entire system, warts and all. For instance, if the system brought people over by force, then you agree to make any restitution that needs to be made.
I am not for a minute saying that the POTUS/VPOTUS law makes any sense - it is one of the bizarre little leftovers from the days of the Revolutionary War. To the detriment of the voter. The perception of "foreigners" does play a significant role in politics. Dukakis, yes. Even Barack Obama mentioned it.
Should it matter to the voter whether you are naturalized or whether your ancestors came over on the Mayflower? Absolutely. I would say that, in any given election, all other things being equal, you are better off voting for a naturalized citizen (legal citizen, especially if under the "exceptional" category) than voting for somebody who is legacy. As always, the example of Bush.
talking about ignorance of history, how many educated people in the west know about the biggest human displacement ever that was caused due to 1947 partition??? perspective .. !!!
True, there are other differences in terms of opportunities between naturalized and non-naturalized citizens. My point is that politically speaking, there are only two restrictions.
I think the hierarchical distinction was raised in response to razib's mystical embrace of the republic. Even many born browns, I dare say, would view such idealism about citizenship with skepticism. OTOH, Mr. Khan's attitude towards his citizenship is - ahem - disturbing.
The problem is also that most Indians do not read ANY history beyond school level. I'm not familiar with the US or European education system, and I'm not sure if most people continue to study history at the high school level and beyond. History as taught at the school level is pretty shallow and skips over many inconvenient or particularly horrific events/periods. It then falls upon each individual to get a better perspective. Many don't bother. Most schools are not affliated to ICSE/CBSE, and I'm not sure if ICSE/CBSE history dealt with this topic to a greater extent.
You believe more people died in partition that in the gas chambers?
Nobody has actual numbers of partition deaths. But it caused biggest human displacement in the history till that day. (in 1947).
More pertinent question is how many of the westerners of non-desi background even know about it?
RC, you are quite right about the contemptous treatment of partition, and I think it is typical of our history books. All difficult events are swept under the carpet, and I suspect this treatment of partition has more to do with the inability/unwillingness, often out of political correctness, to confront awkward truths that is so prevalent in India. Another example that comes readily to mind is how communism is portrayed. It is common knowledge that our history books have had a particularly socialist slant, and even know kids read about the Panchasheel treaty and other such rubbish.
As for awareness of Indian history in the west, I totally agree with you. I do think though, that it's important for Indians to know about the holocaust.
here are more idiots who want to spread hate..
RC,
As far as I know, the death toll during Partition, though horrific, was significantly less than the 6 million+ killed by the Nazis.
I can't speak for the United States, but this is common knowledge amongst the majority population here in the UK, at least amongst the "educated people" you mention.
Our history books, regardless of what SP said, do not do any kind of justice to the holocaust.
With due respect, I disagree. I think this might have to do with a more humanistic bias in India.
You may think Im overreacting but there is a seemingly innocent fascination with Hitler and the Holocaust which is quite visible here in India, and its not just
I think these are two quite different political agendas here : one, the Hindu nationalists and the other is the "the sympathy for Palestine regardless of anything" brigade. There are plenty of people in India today who are sympathetic to the Palestinians, just as there are those who are sympathetic to the victims of the Holocaust. Eugene Volokh's argument that Holocaust is not morally unique summed up here. This particular wack-idea seems to be from "the sympathy for Palestine" front.
The Holocaust is one of the most evil events in all of human history because huge numbers of people were murdered. It even merits a lot of special study and remembrance for all the reasons everyone has said. And, under the broad reading of "Holocaust denial" that includes "Holocaust minimization," I'm a Holocaust denier because I don't think plans for racial extermination change the already damning moral calculus? Puh-leeze.
The Hitler restaurant is ridiculous, in poor taste and just plain wacko. I don't understand how it would work even from a purely business point of view. I had the chance to visit the concentration camp at Dachau, and I can tell you that, when you are there, food is the absolute last thing on your mind.
Red Snapper,
I think almost close was the number of people killed was during the birth of Bangladesh nation. When Hindus in Bangladesh and a lot of Muslims who were for independence were brutally murdered. That near Holocause type event had a fitting response from west .... Kissinger told US Ambassador in Dhaka, that Gen. Yahya is 'our guy' " (Basically let Gen. Yahya (Pak dictator) kill as many Bangladeshis as he wishes)
RC, if you're talking about perspective, and get the numbers so thoroughly wrong, you're on shaky ground to begin with. Either way, I think Razib had a point earlier when he said to you:
i really don't know what your problem is. you're pissed cuz we're shitting on some guy promoting hitler?
Link to Eugene Volokh's post : http://www.volokh.com/2004_02_01_volokh_archive.html#107603361824110192
More pertinent question is how many of the westerners of non-desi background even know about it?
Most people in the West cannot even spell Gandhi correctly.
I am trying to point out the double standard of world politics. Where a brown/black life is considered 1/100 th that of European life. As a desi in the west, if I dont point that out, who will (It starts somewhere)
I hate Hitler just as much as I hate Idi Amin and all the other mass murderers. I cant even imagine any good thing about Hitler.
I think these are two quite different political agendas here :
Oops, hit Enter too soon. Siddhartha's is quite right. There is certainly a somewhat "innocent fascination" with the Holocaust, but I also think that we have two quite different political agendas here : one, the Hindu nationalists and the other is the "the sympathy for Palestine regardless of anything" brigade. There are plenty of people in India today who are sympathetic to the Palestinians, just as there are those who are sympathetic to the victims of the Holocaust. The business proposition for this particular wack-idea is not only from the Hindu nationalist front, but also from "the sympathy for Palestine" front.
Sorry, folks. Did not come out right there either. I meant "Siddhartha is quite right. There is certainly a somewhat "innocent fascination" with _Hitler_".
RC, I hear you, and all said, I think the guy who came up with the idea is likely just a dumbass. I don't think there is large scale insensitivity among Indians to the holocaust, as there isn't much awareness. As for awareness about partition in the West, I really don't know, but I can absolutely believe what you think and wouldn't surprise me at all. Could be different in the UK.
Ishtiak Ahmed (University of Stockholm) puts the death toll of partition at 2 million
Jai says:
Thats because UK's history is so connected to Indian subcontinents. and UK may have a bit of a role in the whole thing to begin with :-)
But I am sure that's not the case in the US.
As for any fascination that the RSS might have with Hitler, more people have actually heard about Hitler/Holocaust than Golwalkar. In my opinion, Golwalkar's views have had very limited influence. RSS itself cannot be said to have a mass base outside a few pockets.
I've gotta go, but my point is that it does not reflect some sort of systemic bias on part of the textbook folks in India or the educational system there. Let us not blame the textbooks for this.
actually people point it out here on these comment threads many times each day, in the most appropriate and inappropriate settings. it gets tired after a while, and it loses its analytic value.
blog comment conversations are all about double standards, mainly because people are much more interested in criticizing other people, preferably in gross generalizations and over dishonestly reductive interpretations of facts, rather than perform any introspection of their own.
conversations go as follow:
A: X sucks.
B: oh yeah? well i certainly don't see you complaining about Y!
in endless variations of the same. we got some major specialists of this epistemological approach here, but then again, any blog with active comment threads does.
the late ustad bismillah khan said something with universal value in the interview that i linked to with shekhar gupta of the indian express:
the world is divided between people who believe solutions start with others, and people who believe solutions start with themselves.
peace
RC,
You are indeed partially correct, although I am assuming you know about the efforts in the US to discuss the horrors of the transatlantic slave trade and the legacy & consequences of slavery within North America. Unless someone here on SM is going to tell me that these matters are discreetly ignored in the American educational syllabus along with mainstream social and media discussions on the era.
Europeans place a lot of emphasis on the Holocaust because it was something Europeans did to each other. Bear in mind also that the slaughter was to a great extent on a highly-organised, systematic, industrial scale, and that it was in the context of a global war with massive fighting and casualties on the European mainland. All these things mean that it resonates strongly in the private and public consciousness of people from that background, especially the fact that supposedly civilised people could descend into such barbarism and methodically kill those from an ostensibly different background on such a huge scale, sponsored and supported by their own government (in the case of German Jews).
It's not a competition between the West and India in terms of "who had the worse holocaust(s)".
If someone hands you a loaded gun, the primary blame lies with you if you subsequently decide to point it at your "enemy" and pull the trigger.
ADIA, I disagree (in case you're still here). I did not say there was any bias wrt the treatment of the holocaust in our history books. I just said, from my own experience as well as that of friends/colleagues, that it's not adequate. A colleague of mine watched Schindler's List a couple of years back and then did some Googling to find out more. He'd never known about it before. He grew up in rural Maharashtra and is highly educated and smart. I don't have any statistics to justify my opinions, but this has been my observation.
Jai,
You actually put the finger on my whole arguments by
I agree with you that it was on a higher scale and more worrysome and brutal because it was organized (organization is a european strong skill after all). All I was trying to say that since Holocaust occured in Europe, Europeans are more sensitive to it, and rightfully so. I just want to say that one cant expect that concern from Indian citizen. Its just not comparable. One can ask Indian citizen to be sensitive about the Holocaust that happened in their sorroundings. Thats all.
I never intended my arguments to be a pissing match.
Yeah, I remember my first year geography prof telling the class that Bangladesh got its independence from India, in the midst of a discussion about colonialism. I nitpicked.
Lest we also forget the Japanese activities from 1937 to 1945. They estimate 35 million casualties during this period.
Actually, what loses analytic value is cherry picking one group's suffering, and mentioning it and highlighting it disproportionately. Growing up in the US, I was 10 years old when I found out who Hitler was (watching Sound of Music in school), I was 12 years old when I read the book Ordinary Men, as a school assignment. Compare that to age 23 when I learned of the Nanjing activities.
Does it make me less of a human to point out this discrepancy?
bengali comment #208.
That is completely incorrect. The naive and ahistorical view is that history is made up of little disconnected events. And British history from 1600(creation of East India Company)to 1947 was TOTALLY related to yours and my history. In fact it's so inextricable that it's staring you in the face even as you write in English. It isn't a matter of liking or not liking something. Slavery did not just happen in the US. It involved circuits of trade that included the Caribbean, Africa, India (coolies) and the United States. I can't even imagine where you got your idea of history from. Do a survey--ask any practicing historian what they think of your comment.
RC,
Perhaps the key point is "more sensitive" as compared to "sensitive full-stop". One may obviously be more sensitive to issues that affect one's (more or less) immediate environment and/or concern one's own ancestors; however, that does not preclude the necessity for sensitivity towards issues concerning "far away" parties, at least on a basic humanitarian level, ie. just basic empathy for one's fellow human being.
The atrocities in Rwanda and, more recently, Darfur have received huge publicity (at least in the UK) and the distance between Europe and Africa does not mean people here have not been horrified by what has happened there or do not have any sensitivity towards people from that part of the world.
I agree that, for the various reasons we've all discussed here, one would not expect "everyone" back in India to necessarily be as clued up on the Holocaust as those in Europe and the United States. However, someone with a loose interest in a historical figure like Hitler -- whether it's the restaurant owners or the college students which others here have mentioned -- would be wise to at least be thorough in their research so that they get a proper understanding of the kind of individual they are "admiring" or using as some kind of publicity-seeking, "aren't we controversial" restaurant theme.
Information on such matters (and world history in general) is freely available these days in India, as I mentioned before, even if one may have to be a little proactive in order to find it.
The Ukranian Famine was something Europeans did to Europeans, it wiped out a significant chunk of the world's Ukranian population, yet many people west of Poland have never even heard about it.
Nanda Kishore,
Escape from Sobibor was widely televised in India as a mini series in the late 80s and also the CBSE and ICSE history text books discuss the world wars and nazism at length. That being said naming the restaurant after Hitler was stupid.
If the media in India picks up this story, they could actually do some good for a change. For once a media circus would be useful.
ADIA, I disagree (in case you're still here). I did not say there was any bias wrt the treatment of the holocaust in our history books. I just said, from my own experience as well as that of friends/colleagues, that it's not adequate. A colleague of mine watched Schindler's List a couple of years back and then did some Googling to find out more. He'd never known about it before. He grew up in rural Maharashtra and is highly educated and smart. I don't have any statistics to justify my opinions, but this has been my observation.
I think that this might have more to do with the approach to teaching rather than the content itself.
Textbooks in India do cover world history to a reasonable extent. As has often been said, textbooks in the United States comparatively do not have very considerable coverage of history outside of America. There are tons of folks in America who don't know very much (or anything) about the Opium Wars or the British Raj. On the other hand, textbooks in India do cover these. Yet, as you have said, the coverage does not seem adequate. The problem, in my opinion, is that students aren't actively encouraged to engage with these issues from a personal point of view.
Supposing the teacher in 9th grade had said, "Did you or one of your family experience terrorism or violence? Did someone come over from Sri Lanka after having personally experienced terrorism there? How did that make you feel? Did someone in your family come over during partition? How did they feel?" Surely, that would help people know that these political issues from far away do affect their lives and the lives of those they know, and help them empathise in a political context more deeply. It would, at the very least, build a sense of sympathy for injustice everywhere. Not that such sympathy doesn't exist. It already does. It just may not have come from history classes.
The problem, in my opinion, is that students aren't actively encouraged to engage with these issues from a personal point of view.
Good point. Sadly, most rural/semi-urban schools take that approach, except in cases where the teacher is quite knowledgeable and/or passionate about the subject.
I better hang up now, it's well past midnight in Eastcoast Oz. Hopefully, we'll have an update saying the restaurant owner received some gyan and has changed the name :)
Only after cable television was allowed did ANY broadcast come into India from the outside. Doordarshan had state controlled monopoly of all visual media. Best bet for outside news was on shortwave radio listening to BBC or VOA. Exposure to libraries depended on how good your school was or if you had access to the local univesity. Researching anything beyond what was fed to you by the state meant initiative on your part.
One thing I was never taught in India (atleast after completing 10th grade) was how to conduct appropriate research and find information via credible sources. In my senior year of high school in Chicago, we had to do a term paper (do your research, reliable sources, going through a minumum number of sources to ensure, write a good bibliography, give the right credit, etc.)
A question to our commentators from India: Is the appropriate method of researching, writing, giving approriate credit, etc. - A term paper, ever emphasized in education there? I had to do one in college, too, and obviously continue that practice with reports, projects, and papers in engineering. But the basics were taught before I ever entered my specific field of education. Senior english and my first year college english classes.
For some reason, I've never asked this question.
Is the appropriate method of researching, writing, giving approriate credit, etc. - A term paper, ever emphasized in education there?
Practically unheard of in village or small town schools, or even small town colleges. I never had to write a paper until I did a project in my post-graduation.
A question to our commentators from India: Is the appropriate method of researching, writing, giving approriate credit, etc. - A term paper, ever emphasized in education there?
It all depends. The bandwidth of quality of education is incredibly variable. Maybe, someone right now in India from Modern School, Kandriya Vidyalas (Govt. Public Schools), or the new prep schools in Bangalore etc. can give a current picture.
Re TV: Somewhere in early 80s, the reach of TV has been almost complete. Even with Doordarshan only, they (the Government in power) knew that they can win/ loose elections via TV. Now, with credit, TV is seen everywhere. I agree with RC that English is understood by smaller section of population. Right now, you can see History/ Discovery Channel in India in Indian languages (dubbed).
Wow! so much publicity for nothing... Man, I am opening a restaurant in Bangalore next week... Could you give me some free publicity too guys...
Oh! and well I think the name is in very poor taste myself... BUT BOY I WOULD STILL LOVE THE PUBLICITY!!!
Dang! we are all crazy in our own way!
Kush,
I did go to Delhi Public School and the curriculum back then did not involve any emphasis on case studies. The academics link on the CBSE website provides some insights into curriculum development and many interesting courses like enterpreneurship, bio-technology etc are being introduced to the curriculum.
Re: TV, my comment above does not in any way imply that an english language problem received wide audience in the late 80s, I was trying to point out Indian Urban Population's access to programs depicting the holocaust.
A question to our commentators from India: Is the appropriate method of researching, writing, giving approriate credit, etc. - A term paper, ever emphasized in education there?
It all depends. The bandwidth of quality of education is incredibly variable. Maybe, someone right now in India from Modern School, Kandriya Vidyalas (Govt. Public Schools), or the new prep schools in Bangalore etc. can give a current picture.
This is from more than a decade back, but as far as the Kendriya Vidyalayas go, the answer is "No, even in the cities". Even in engineering, not until you start writing papers do you start getting into the appropriate method of researching, attributing, etc. There is nothing, of course, in college to prevent people from starting to learn this stuff on their own.
Damn, typed up a post and it got chewed up the net.
Till 8th std (grade) my school followed a central board material like Kendriya Vidyalays, after which it shifted to the state board. I haven't encountered any data that suggests critically evaluating any subject (History, Science, Business, Literature, etc.) has ever been emphasized as a fundamental in school or the first few years of college. The idea never came up until this thread raised the question of why people from India a certain way, history, Hitler, the usual [enter your beef the United States here, it has to be mentioned every time], information...
Beyond the basic english classes, all the engineering classes with a project, paper, or report had a bibliography with the properly sourced material. One of my criticisms of Indian education I had was it didn't encourage critical thinking skills. As Kush has said, the variablility of education in India is all over the place. My experiences were over a decade ago, so things may have changed.
It may not have any impact on the discussion at hand, but maybe emphasis on those tools would result in bettering the quality of Indian journalism or print media, eventually having the right impact on the masses. Smart or curious people eventually figure things out, but knowing how much the US education system pushes these techniques, it is suprising that I haven't heard much about it in India.
you are giving some village idiot too much credibility for his/her ignorance. I think that is the whole purpose of naming his/her restaurant after Hitler.
Finally, he won since he got his 15 minutes of fame and everyone is talking about it. Just ignore them.
Beyond the basic english classes, all the engineering classes with a project, paper, or report had a bibliography with the properly sourced material. One of my criticisms of Indian education I had was it didn't encourage critical thinking skills.
Word. Also, engineering research generally involves a different type of criticism and analysis than the humanities, say, for instance in history, literature and so forth. What then are some of the avenues for acquiring these skills in the U.S. today if you happen not to have gone through the program? Writing courses? Self study? Just get a good reference book on writing, maybe. What are some of the avenues for acquiring these skills in India (online would probably work well)?
India's Jewish community speaks out.
It hits a bit harder when you actually see the picture. Speaks volumes about what is and isn't considered taboo in India, if a business owner in the US even dreamed of envisioning of talking about owning a place like that he'd better wake up and apologize.
Puneet Sabhlok is an ASS.
My professor and I were talking about this, and she asked an interesting question:
"What kind of food do they serve?"
I know this isn't the point of the convo--it's definitely a digression--but still, does anybody have any idea?
Perhaps Manish...
Now that the BBC has picked up ths story, it might seem to the uninitiated there is anti-semitism in India. Sigh!!! Of course, the BBC has not provided any context. As usual, the Beeb is at the forefront when it comes to covering anything negative about India.
It does seem that this jerk Puneet Sabhlok is actually aware of the history of Nazism. That makes him a first rate a-hole.
We studied the First and Second World Wars ad infinitum in the ICSE and ISC history syllabi. In fact, we didn't do very much world history other than the age of discovery, the renaissance, the French Revolution, American Revolution, and the World Wars. We also did a "project" in the 8th grade on the world wars, which included information on the major battles, the numbers dead, literature and poetry from the period, etc. I'm sure people in the US and Europe study the holocaust in greater detail and it is closer to home for them, but I disagree with the idea that Indians don't know about the holocaust.
The Hindi play I mentioned, "Ek aur ek gyarah," was a very black and white morality tale set in a "village" which pitted the idealistic lefty supporters of Gandhi against the supporters of Hitler, as I remember.
But Nanda Kishore is absolutely right to say that Indians don't read much history beyond the school level, and it's true that Stalin continues to be glorified in West Bengal and Kerala. We studied the Russian Revolution and the history of the USSR in Calcutta in 11th grade and there wasn't much discussion of the numbers of people Stalin killed compared with the numbers that Hitler killed, just some lines about "purges."
obviously this man knows what he is doing! He says he doesnt know much about hitler, then why is he using his name?? Using Hitlers name to create publicity..tho what he doesnt realise is the -negative- publicity he is creating. If he hasnt put any thought into his "branding" exercise, he will soon find out that he and his food will be associated with all that is negative. It shows total ignorance, lack of understanding and actions driven purely by money. He knows its a provocative name. He has brought much disrepute to the indian community outside of India. Yes, Indians in general are not so sensitive to the Holocaust as they were not involved, but those that have atleast the slightest wisdom and knowledge will tell you that 6 million being murdered by a man named Hitler is not something to be taken lightly. There are people who are still alive today from the Holocqaust period and will recall and tell you the atrocities carried out by Hitler.
Wake up man..if you have any sense of decency in you..and an ounce of intellect...use better branding tacts!
Forget Hitler. Even more outrageous is the misplacement of the apostrophe.
I get it! It's the Hitler family, and that's their cross! Like Hitlers' Pass, or Hitlers' Forge...
I thought that the Cross in the name referred to the Iron Cross handed out to those who made themselves useful in some way for the Third Reich.
And hey, don't trash the Beeb! :) It is one of the most unbiased newssources I have ever come across. And I can assure you that in this desi family all the BBC's plus the online news service are religiously watched. Besides, they have great programming as well.
Just another thing: I'm confused. Way up towards the top of the thread, there is some discussion about the directions in which swastikas turn. But unless my memory fails me, I swear most of the swastikas I've seen in South and Southeast Asian contexts face in the same direction as the one on the Nazi flag: right. Even Wikipedia, that ever-reliable font of knowledge, indicates that the swastika was widespread across Eurasia, and both right- and left-facing swastikas exist, even within the same broad religious tradition. Specifically, Hindus use both, but mostly the right-facing one. That's what I thought too. So which is Hitler's and which is the Hindus'? Have I misunderstood something?
Anyone who is interested in patronizing the restaurent, well here's a link for your info ... http://www.hitlerscross.com. Please do click on the link and included in posts about this restaurant. (You'll see what I mean when you visit the site.)
This thread just got its first full-on Holocaust denier comment. Immediately deleted and banned of course. Probably a sign that it's time to close the comments and move on. Peace, everyone.