“We need darker friends.” Is it really damaging to a child (the baby has grown up some now) not to be around anyone who physically resembles her? And wouldn’t it be slightly strange to seek out “friends” on this basis?

i think there are better uses of her time & energy. also depends on the child. some here (on these boards) seem to be relatively negatively affected by being the "only brown kid" in their school. others do not seem to have been impacted.

props to her honesty and reflectiveness, but, she needs to be careful not to overanalyze this issue (though this is the only slice of this woman's thoughts i know of, so i need to be careful in assuming she really is thinking about this as much as the impression i get from the article).

I agree that it would be hard to determine this woman's mindset from an article, and she does seem to be a kind mother deeply interested in her child's welfare. With that being said, I do think that this article is indicative of the type of deeply ingrained, often- subconcious racism that can be very damaging to the child's psyche.

It's not just her horror at the baby's dark skin or her use of the terms "Blacks" and other subtle betrayals of ignorance. There is a palpable feeling in this article that being dark is somehow negative- the way she compares her skin color with every black and indian person she sees, as if there is some idealized range that Indian babies should fall into. Further, the way she notices the race of everyone she encounters in the article and the way she lumps African-Americans and Indians together on basis of skin color seems to bred from a position of ignorance. The very way she contrasts her daughter's skin color with peers makes it clear she hasn't "dealt with it" yet.

It's not surprising, Amardeep, that you aren't offended. I have noticed you are almost always willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Westerners that are ignorant or slightly racist. Not that that's a bad thing. Personally, I am against the idea, if not the practice of inter-racial adoption. Speaking from my own experiences, I think it is damaging for a child to grow up around people that do not look like her. Children are simplistic, they naturally infer that being different is negative, and no matter what you tell them, you cannot prevent the ostracism and cruelty they may encounter. When I went to school and there were no other Indian kids, I consistently got more shit than later when there were a few others. Everyone needs someone to identify with. On the occasions I did experience racism, I was able to go home and talk to my parents about it and receive comfort and empathy. Not saying that this Mom won't be a good mother and console her daughter, but what does she really know about facing that situation?

Again, I realize that until Indians start adopting these children, inter-racial adoption is necessary and I don't think it should be ended. But I would hesitate before I labeled this women an ideal candidate; she is obviously still consumed with some race and color issues that do not affect many of the white people I know that have adopted children of color.

Speaking from my own experiences, I think it is damaging for a child to grow up around people that do not look like her

speaking from my own experience, it was the bomb :) the mindless palefaces were nothing but my playthings, as are all humans. life is not delivered, it is hunted and subdued.

i think that the woman above isn't racist or ignorant, i think she is an attempting-to-be-sensitive liberal who is overthinking the issue and trying to be aware to the point where it might be interfering with the primary concern: loving & raising a child. i say this primarily because she wondered what black people would think if she adopted a dark-skinned child: my response, "black people" don't have any reason to think jack, it isn't their kid, races don't have any moral right to a kid, parents do.

It's not surprising, Amardeep, that you aren't offended. I have noticed you are almost always willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Westerners that are ignorant or slightly racist. Not that that's a bad thing.

So wait, are you offended by her essay or aren't you? If not, I don't know why you're bringing up this old thing again.

Speaking from my own experiences, I think it is damaging for a child to grow up around people that do not look like her.

What Lisa Lerner's daughter will face and what you faced will probably be pretty similar. By your logic, one could argue that Indians should stay in India to avoid having their kids be damaged by looking different in American society.

Finally, as a Jew, I think she probably has some idea about how ethno-religious exclusion works.

I think this is article is a really, really honest attempt to think thru some of the challenging issues in adopting a child who is perceived to be really different from a parent. The perceived part is important: the mother perceives the difference and she also worries about other peoples perceptions.

In almost all cultures, skin color is significant and north america is no exception. It shouldnt be so, its an insignificant part of our heritage etc. but it is. Much better to acknowledge it and work thru it, ask for help etc.

When I first came to the US, I couldnt tell light-haired north europeans apart. To add to this, the men had these short names like "joe" and "ed", and there were at least two called "bill"; that didnt help either.

I dont think I had "some race and color issues", it was just something outside my experience. It was really embarassing as several of my most helpful colleagues fell into this category. I had to consciously note some details of dress, facial expression etc. for several weeks until such folk became more individuated to my eyes.

on a personal level - i think the lady's good intentions cant be doubtde - but to echo razib i think she's thinking too much about this. relax.

kids of a certain age growing up in a racially different environment, and i was one myself, do not think about it - but then i think i was privileged not to realize i was different - that came later. i dont think the kid will have any issues and she's going to be as white/jewish as her mum provided the mum doesnt try to confuse matters by providing a clumsy 'authentic' indian experience.

one request for the posters... as someone who's considering adopting this is one of the points i havent exactly brooded over - but it's been on the edge of my mind - but the thing i fear the most are the questions from strangers - as to 'why did you pick him/her'... i dont think there is a good answer... so be nice guys/ladies. a kid has a mother. a woman has a daughter. why poke holes.

I can't say I'm offended by the adoption itself... a child needed a home, and she is providing one. But I AM severely annoyed at her lack of forsight. Her choosing to adopt is bringing forward many of her own issues with race. Issues that she really needed to at least look into before adopting. I can't help but feel that her worry about the child's skin tone is related to how SHE will be treated by people who might assume the child is hers. Her relief that the girl was lighter probably stemmed from a deeper desire to have the child "pass." At least then she could do a good deed without really having to experience any overt racism.

More specifically, I think she is worried V(aishali) will be mistaken for black and that would result in scorn from both white and black communities... which explains her preoccupation with what people in the black community will think. Adopting a brown child says she's not racist; liberal, "colorblind" but without really having to face the... more tumultuous race debates that would happen if she adopted a black child.

“We need darker friends.”

Or maybe she should realize that people come in a variety of colors and its more important to find positive role models in V's community than to try and find people of the same skin color.

Is it really damaging to a child (the baby has grown up some now) not to be around anyone who physically resembles her?

YES. It IS damaging. If she is surrounded by all lighter skinned, lighter haired people throughout her childhood, it is VERY likely that she will feel like an outsider, even if no one expliciitly tells her she is.

And wouldn’t it be slightly strange to seek out “friends” on this basis?

Yes, this would be strange. It is also a burden on that particular "friend" to be the representative of all things X. Goodness, I have so much to say on this. I'll stop now.

I have a lot of mixed feelings about this article. Part of me wants to give her props for openly admitting that she has certain biases about darker skin, since most goras I know will get uber-defensive whenever the topic of racism is even discussed. "I honestly don't see color," or "I'm so glad to see people mixing these days" are some examples of idiocy that i've heard lately.

On the other hand, I kind of agree with Gautham -- I got the feeling she was interchanging/conflating the identities of being "Indian" and "dark". As in, "being around darker people will make Vishali feel better about herself." Not necessarily true. I grew up around Latinos, Asians, and black people -- but I was always the only desi. And just like my desi friends who grew up around white people, i was still called "gandhi lover" and "dot head" and "curry girl" -- BY PEOPLE WHO WERE DARKER THAN ME. This Lerner chick has it all wrong -- it's not simply darkness that makes a kid feel different, it's the slightest sense of otherness that other kids are quick to pick up on.

That all being said, they live in NY, not Iowa, so I'm sure Vaishali will at least have some exposure to other desis.

i don't think it is really appropriate to take the darkness thing as a literal root of her issues, i think it is more totemic/symbolic. if her baby was lighter brown i'm sure she might have other issues.

i think that one needs to be careful about attributing problems/outsiderness to color/physical differences. some people will always be outsiders because they are shy or awkward. i think saying that it is about 'race' is an out for some people, in brownland they might be taunted for a different reason because there's something about them that screams 'i am prey, come hunt me' (though i could be convinced by social science studies which control for variables).

i would say that in general, white people need darker friends...

but the way that should happen is by people putting themselves in the position to make friends of all backgrounds, and then let whatever happens, happens. looking for dark friends to serve a specific purpose is, as oneup points out, very problematic. it's rather like stephen colbert's gag about his search for a new black friend.

from the article, it feels to me as well that the author is (subconsciously) worried the child will be taken for black. that, as oneup points out, exposes mother and child to a whole set of issues that perhaps she didn't "sign up for." she may also be worried that she - the mother - will be taken for a white lady who adopted a black child.

life is case by case so we are in no position to know whether this mother is "good" or "bad" for this child. but i do agree with gautham and with oneup that the author doesn't seem to have prepared herself very well for the role of white mother of a non-white child. hopefully writing this article, clumsy as it is, and the conversations that will ensue, will help her find her way.

So wait, are you offended by her essay or aren't you? If not, I don't know why you're bringing up this old thing again.

Speaking from my own experiences, I think it is damaging for a child to grow up around people that do not look like her.
What Lisa Lerner's daughter will face and what you faced will probably be pretty similar. By your logic, one could argue that Indians should stay in India to avoid having their kids be damaged by looking different in American society.

Finally, as a Jew, I think she probably has some idea about how ethno-religious exclusion works.

First, yes I was slightly offended, but not in the "this lady is attacking my beautiful brown folk" way, but because I think her line of thinking is that it's somehow less desirable to be darker skinned, like its a "condition" that African-Americans and some Indians share. I don't see it as negative in any way, and if she really wasn't racist at all, I don't think it would be an issue. As for your analogy to my experience, what I'm saying is exactly that. I think I would have been better off in India than dealing with some of the shit I had to deal with. So sue me. I'm currently in the process of trying to move back. So yes, I do think we are better off around people that look like us. Maybe not everyone, but I doubt other people have had some of the negative experiences I have.

Being Jewish in New York these days hardly qualifies you as excluded or oppressed in my opinion.

Oneup- great comments. I totally agree and am glad to see someone else thinks similarly.

Right Al Beruni. A lot studies have been done on how people have trouble individualizing those outside their own "kind." That's just being realistic.
My first uncharitable thought was, "why the hell did this idiot even think about adopting a child from India if color was significant?" Did her only knowledge of India come from Air India advertisements?
Her trepidation about color is not "racist" IMO. If, for some weird reason, an Indian family had to assume parenthood of a blue-eyed blond, unrelated to them, I expect they'd have to grapple with a few uncomfortable feelings too, unrelated to the British Empire. They'd feel really funny introducing that little tow-head as theirs.
Even within families, an "odd" sibling can draw tiresome remarks. I do have problems with interracial adoption though. If it works out and the kid is happy, and the parents are happy, ok. But later, especially during her adolescent angst period, the kid could grow up feeling "kidnapped" from his or her own culture.

Since we are speaking from our own experiences, mine was like Razib's. Growing up, I was the only Indian in school and I loved it. It made me feel like I stood out. It was a little harder to get girls, but--probably since I lived in a highly educated jewish neighborhood--not too much so.

I was aware of the differences between me and the other kids and I think this made me more aloof and individualistic. Not being automatically part of any group can make one less inclined toward group-think. Nor did I revert back to my parents culture and revel in my Indianess.

I wonder if this partially explains how I ended up an athiest (like razib). I do know indian kids who had a very tough time with this, as lack of acceptance and lack of girls can do that to a person. But for me, it was a happy childhood.

From the article:

I felt embarrassed voicing possible concerns to my liberal friends, because all of us were adamant that race made no difference to our choice of friends, lovers, or tiny babies up for adoption.

I can't help but wonder what the racial and economic backgrounds of her liberal friends are. I think this idea the race doesn't matter at all is one of the biggest reasons I don't identify with liberals.

It DOES matter. It SHOULD be thought about. And it SHOULD be dicussed.

But at the same time, the fact that race (and more specifically and accurately, culture) is a factor that needs to be considered shouldn't mean that it has to completely take over every decision and action.

I can't help but wonder what the racial and economic backgrounds of her liberal friends are. I think this idea the race doesn't matter at all is one of the biggest reasons I don't identify with liberals.

amen.

It was a little harder to get girls, but--probably since I lived in a highly educated jewish neighborhood--not too much so.

i grew up in the intermontane west for my adolescence. i didn't perceive any problems. a half-black girl and a cambodian girl (the only other non-whites in a school of 900) were always dating as well. the school was 50% mormon btw. social science studies do suggest that dating should be a problem...but i think it can be contingent upon personality.

I think this idea the race doesn't matter at all is one of the biggest reasons I don't identify with liberals.

i think that's a overly simplistic. there's a grain of truth in this, but on the other hand many white liberals make unctuous attempts to be racially insensitive.

hopefully writing this article, clumsy as it is, and the conversations that will ensue, will help her find her way.

Right. I sincerely hope that she, and other women in her situation find a niche in their adopted child's communities... Or at least are exposed to people who will be honest with them about what types of situations they might encounter. Because right now I feel like if little V ran home crying because the boy in class didn't like her dirty black skin... or if someone called her some terrible racial slur, the author wouldn't know the first thing about trying to console her... and that's rough.

find a niche in their adopted child's communities and or if someone called her some terrible racial slur, the author wouldn't know the first thing about trying to console her... and that's rough.

hm. perhaps (if she is a believer) she should tell her she is a child of god and one of the chosen people who must be a light unto the nations? though seriously, there is a chasm between those of us who think that genetic origin necessarily implies membership in a community and those of us who tend to lean to the idea that values and experience dictate that. she will experience racism within the jewish community, but she will be american and jewish.

Prof. Amardeep,

And wouldn’t it be slightly strange to seek out “friends” on this basis?

But don't some Indian/Pakistani parents here in the US seek out Indian/Pakistani friends with kids of the same age so that their kids have a few brown playmates? I wouldn't necessarily fault her.

"i think that one needs to be careful about attributing problems/outsiderness to color/physical differences. some people will always be outsiders because they are shy or awkward. i think saying that it is about 'race' is an out for some people, in brownland they might be taunted for a different reason because there's something about them that screams 'i am prey, come hunt me' (though i could be convinced by social science studies which control for variables)."

Color differences may not be a necessary component for outsiderness and/or exclusion, but in general it's sufficient.

Color differences may not be a necessary component for outsiderness and/or exclusion, but in general it's sufficient.

not necessarily sufficient (i would say that your generality is too broad a scope to be precise in the context of this conversation).

superdork

If, for some weird reason, an Indian family had to assume parenthood of a blue-eyed blond, unrelated to them, I expect they'd have to grapple with a few uncomfortable feelings too, unrelated to the British Empire. They'd feel really funny introducing that little tow-head as theirs.

Exactly. A light-skinned indian friend who has married an uber north-european woman now has two light-haired children. And this is not very easy for him to handle !! Of course, he loves his kids but they are perceived to be different by others and even sometimes by him. I almost get the sense that he is sometimes annoyed that they dont look "indian" ! So these expectations and assumptions can be very tricky to work through, its not enough just to say "Vasudeva Kutumbham" or whatever and expect everything to be fine.

i think that's a overly simplistic. there's a grain of truth in this, but on the other hand many white liberals make unctuous attempts to be racially insensitive.

Oh, I don't totally identify with either side of the political bandwagon... but I feel like liberals often take their whole "we are the" world-view to a level that still doesn't see non-whites as inviduals who are capable of normal human thought. And then you have crap like this happen.

Is it really damaging to a child (the baby has grown up some now) not to be around anyone who physically resembles her?

YES. It IS damaging. If she is surrounded by all lighter skinned, lighter haired people throughout her childhood, it is VERY likely that she will feel like an outsider, even if no one expliciitly tells her she is.

Since I grew up like this, IMO Oneup is half right, she will feel like an outsider but this is not necessarily damaging. She, or her mother, is going to have to learn how to turn this into a positive, ie an opportunity to build a genuine identity for herself while the other kids are "trapped" in a group identity not of their own making.

It's not just her horror at the baby's dark skin or her use of the terms "Blacks" and other subtle betrayals of ignorance.

Also, in terms of our personal experiences: I don't think that just having more brown/desi/whatever people around makes one more comfortable; that's ignoring the diversity within our community. There were a couple of desis in my school situation, but one was a Gujrati Muslim, one was a Pakistani Muslim, one was a Malayali Catholic (I am Maharashtrian Hindu). So, while it might have seemed like having them around provided some sort of relief, I actually had more in common with my non-desi friends, whose families came from Ireland, Hungary, China, Italy, Trinidad, etc. in different centuries. In fact, some of my so-called countrymen were the only ones to ever tease me about the dancing Shiva on our mantle, or the elephant-headed statue in our living room.

i would say that in general, white people need darker friends...

Al beruni,

my family has acquaintances where the father is bangladeshi and the mother irish. one of the sons looks "latino" (he lives in NYC, people assume he's puerto rican from what he tells me), while the other kid looks basically "white" (irish with a tan basically). it is pretty clear that the father favors the former over the latter, and he has talked about how it was initially embarrassing to introduce his auburn haired baby to his relatives back home. so it goes both ways.

Get yer dark friends right here at Rent-a-Negro. I've used the service and they have very reasonable rates. Going once...

Now if only someone would open up a Mango Store in this neighborhood, so I can get me the new iMacaca.

Since I grew up like this, IMO Oneup is half right, she will feel like an outsider but this is not necessarily damaging.

I agree... sorry if I didn't fully get that point across. There ARE ways to spin this positively, but it takes an informed and prepared parent (regardless of race) to be able to do this. By reading this article I don't feel the author is prepared at all.

Most of the black (yes I use that word) people I know (aged 14 through mid-60s) prefer to be called black, or Black American. Many of them do not (or choose not to) identify with Africa, and therefore do not like the term African-American.

Tricky topic. But the bolded part is off base. I think the desire to use "black" is more based on the fact that "African-American" is cumbersome to type or say over and over. Formally, the majority of black people choose "african american" because we DO want to acknowledge that part of our history... but in conversation and practical everyday speech, "black" is more common. In my experience anyway...

I can't help but wonder what the racial and economic backgrounds of her liberal friends are. I think this idea the race doesn't matter at all is one of the biggest reasons I don't identify with liberals. It DOES matter. It SHOULD be thought about. And it SHOULD be dicussed.

to me, individual ethnicities are artifacts of our respective selves... and i know kids dont see race as a social differentiators the way grown-ups do. so why make it so? why go out of the way to create the imbalances, the partitions and the powerplays that are primarily societal constructs?

are y'all parents? have you been around young children? my experience is that race matters very little to them - i love kids and kids love me back regardless of ethnicity differences - and i find the thought a bit hurtful that some parent would put thought barriers around this.

Ohh please. Indian's are more obsessed with light skin then anyone on the planet. I bet a light skinned indian couple wouldnt adopt a dark skinned indian baby.

just an fyi, it seems that preference for black or african american is 50/50 among blacks/african americans.

to me, individual ethnicities are artifacts of our respective selves... and i know kids dont see race as a social differentiators the way grown-ups do. so why make it so?

teensy kids perhaps. but teens can be brutal and very racist, until the veneer of adulthood dries off and seals away the ugly honesty

I don't think Lisa is racist. She seems very open minded .

---The very way she contrasts her daughter's skin color with peers makes it clear she hasn't "dealt with it" yet.---

Of course she is wondering how to fuse her daughter into society given she lacks experience in situations her daughter will be subject to.
How can Indian's speak so highly as if we are not racist in our own ways. Infanticide. Most Indian's are racist (albeit quietly and not violently) against African Americans. Don't tell me Indian parents approve when their daughter or son marries someone African American. To not talk about it, as suggested in an earlier post, is not the answer.

Amardeep,

Based on anecdotal evidence, notably from desi friends who have adopted from India, it appears that it is easy to adopt Indian girls since there are so many that are given away for adoption. However, boys are just not given away. Friends of mine (inter-racial couple - Indian man, Caucasian American woman) had adopted a girl from India. They desired to adopt a second child who was male. The only one they could find had a deformed arm. They did adopt him.

The reason I bring this up is that there is another facet to this story. And that is one of gender and its correlation with disability. That combined with the racial factor that others have discussed here, is a dual challenge for the parents. I am amazed by these folks who face these adoption related challenges head on and raise successful kids.

". A light-skinned indian friend who has married an uber north-european woman now has two light-haired children. And this is not very easy for him to handle !!"

and that, even though they're genetically his too, and must bear some resemblence to him. So for love of Shiva, of course there's going to be an element of strangness in all this interracial adopting. Confucious says: "It can be good or it can be bad." Most people who think at all, feel a little alien now and then, no matter how smothering the family is, how same the population.

I think the desire to use "black" is more based on the fact that "African-American" is cumbersome to type or say over and over. Formally, the majority of black people choose "african american" because we DO want to acknowledge that part of our history... but in conversation and practical everyday speech, "black" is more common. In my experience anyway...

Oneup,
I see your point, but this is not the experience I have had, especially with younger generations. I grew up using "African American" but have often been specifically asked to use the term "black." To each his or her own, I suppose. Plus, teenagers are a different and constantly changing (but deeply thoughtful and highly opinionated!!) breed.

Tamasha-

I was referring to her use of the plural "Blacks" instead of black people, African-Americans, or anything that might emphasize the humanity of the group in question. Perhaps I'm reading into this too much, but the way she uses the term screams "Other" to me.

Also Razib, I wonder if you are falling into the same trap that you accuse many of us of doing before: generalizing completely from your own experience. It's great that you had such an easy adjustment during childhood, but that doesn't mean that other kids don't deal with a lot of racist bullshit. And for your information, being the target of prejudice is not restricted to kids that are shy or awkward. I certainly wouldn't consider myself to be either. And I know a lot of minority kids that would echo that sentiment.

I wonder if you are falling into the same trap that you accuse many of us of doing before: generalizing completely from your own experience.

no, but, i'm going to speak up to contradict your own perceptions, as you do see to speak in a manner which tends to elide the difference between your own experience & opinions and those of "indians" or "desis" or "hindus" or whatever you claim as your group.

Just to nit-pick a little... why is her use of the term "black" a portrayal of ignorance? Most of the black (yes I use that word) people I know (aged 14 through mid-60s) prefer to be called black, or Black American
Some mutineers are pretty young, so a little history lesson:

Anybody who lived during the 60s learned to use the term black for people of sub-Saharan African descent. It was a term promoted and insisted upon by BLACKS--excuse me, African Americans. Before black, the official and perfectly polite, non-racist term was Negro, which simply means black in Spanish. "Colored" was also used, by blacks themselves, and was not insulting.
There was some move towards "Afro-American" during the 60s but it never caught on. Now it has. African American. Long and annoying to have to say. How about European American. Asia American (that trips off the tongue a little fast), Indian American, etc.

T-miss

I don't think anyone is arguing that Indian people are not also racist. Basically every group of people on Earth is racist because most people are programmed from Birth to prefer people that look, think, talk and act like themselves. But the fact that some Indian people are racist or prefer light skin is not a reason to forgive the same quality in white people. We should condemn all such preferences, whether the offender is white, black or indian.

For instance, my sister and I have very different skin tones. We don't look anything alike, in fact people always assumed that any of the other indian guys at our school was her brother instead of me. Similarly, my Mom and I share a complexion, and my sister and my Dad share one. The difference being, my parents don't ascribe any value at all to this difference, and they are extremely protective of her and defensive whenever anyone makes any comments about it. That's not to say no one says anything rude, but that to my parents, it is absolutely not an issue. Obviously for this lady, it is an issue, at least in some form. It's either a difference to learn about, or a handicap to be overcome, or a clear indicator of the child's different origin, but at any rate, this essay itself points to the fact that this is a tangible issue that she feels she needs to address.

In contrast, I know my mother never looked at my sister's body while changing a diaper and worried, regardless of how different they looked. As Oneup said, Race is an issue, it should be discussed, and we are not all the same. It's easy to sit on your well-educated upper middle class living on the coasts ass and pretend everyone is so perfect and nice and tolerant of difference, but this is largely not the case. Not in America, not in India, and not anywhere else. As long as darker coloring is looked at as a "defect" then people like me should feel free to point out the stupidity of such a position.

"it is pretty clear that the father favors the former over the latter, and he has talked about how it was initially embarrassing to introduce his auburn haired baby to his relatives back home. so it goes both ways."
Again, whatsup? Lisa the Adopter maybe didn't know what they'd pull out of the hat considering there are a billion or so people in India, but the father in razib's anecdote had married an irish person knowing what she looked like and evidently approving, so why the shame for his kid, a veritable red-headed step-child to his own dad? I think maybe people fall for the specious expectation that "dark" genes dominate and the offspring at best will be mid-way. Not necessarily--they can lean hard either way. When you marry (or whatever) with someone outside your genetic comfort zone, expect some people to be uncomfortable. Expect the unexpected.

Gautam wrote: As long as darker coloring is looked at as a "defect" then people like me should feel free to point out the stupidity of such a position.

To be fair to the writer, I think in this case, she was doing what one of the comments in that article in AlterNet suggested and I take the liberty to quote: "My husband and I are white and adopted two African-American boys out of foster care. I wish I could say the world is colorblind and all kids needs is love, but you have to be realistic. I know that the only people who say race doesn't matter are white people. Race does matter, and I love my sons enough to know that I am raising black men in America and that their opportunities may be different than white boys.

Part of loving my sons is understanding the role race plays in our world and preparing them for it. Right now they are young and it's easy for them. I fear it will get more complicated as they get older."

asically every group of people on Earth is racist because most people are programmed from Birth to prefer people that look, think, talk and act like themselves

no, i doubt this. there is evidence for example that sexual attraction tends to resemble something like the opposite sex parent. in other words, it seems plausible that one identifies with the majority, not themselves.

Again, whatsup?

the human mind is not integrated into a unitary whole. one can be of multiple minds, perceptions and preferences in different domains.

to be specific, humans seem cued to accept the norms and values of your peers. this does bring up issues that are relevant in light of this thread, especially when peers and parents pull in different directions....

Ohh please. Indian's are more obsessed with light skin then anyone on the planet. I bet a light skinned indian couple wouldnt adopt a dark skinned indian baby.

So true!

Razib-

Not sure exactly what you meant on comment 39, but yes, I do notice a profound disconnect in the experiences of the people here on Sepia and the brown people I know in my life. But regardless, I don't claim to represent any view other than my own. I suppose I have a lot of labels I could adhere to, but one thing this site has taught me is that the people here like to avoid generalizations and lumping groups together, which seems to be a good idea. My point was that perhaps your own experience has made you less receptive to the idea that many minority children growing up in predominantly or all-white areas do experience problems with taunting, ostracism, emotional suport and self-perception. This isn't just me talking, there is a lot of sociological data to back it up. I'm at work now or I'd go look through my library from college and find some stuff to refer to- I'll try and do it later tonight.

But I also think that the Mutiny is a pretty self-selecting community (primarily above age of 30, well-educated, middle class, intellectuals interested in these topics, etc) so I would argue that just as I am not reflective of any typical Indian-Hindu-Tamil-brown experience, neither is the typical commenter on here. People here are largely tolerant, understanding and looking for rationalizations behind the racism of others. Most of the Indian kids I grew up with don't spend that much time thinking about this stuff- they just assume some people are racist, some are not, and it's not worth worrying what the white people think. Crude, perhaps, but far more time-saving.

I do notice a profound disconnect in the experiences of the people here on Sepia and the brown people I know in my life. and But I also think that the Mutiny is a pretty self-selecting community

both are self-selecting. your problems in the past have been to assume that your norms are authentic (e.g., hinduism), while those of those who don't fit your box are somehow not authentic. SM is self-selected, but so are those who you know in your own circle.

i await the social science. i wouldn't be surprised if the science is on average on your side. perhaps we should go back to an all-white immigration policy to shelter people from hurt and tension that ensues in a multiracial republic? :)

Ravinder-

Why do you think that is? Do you think the Dravidians just woke up one day, looked at each other and decided "Man, we are some ugly mofos."

Or could there be some sort of reason that has propogated the "Light is Right" frame of thinking? Like the last 2,500 years of human history, perhaps?

Razib.

I realize both are self-selecting. That was my point. None of us can claim to really know or represent brown people at large, in the U.S. or elsewhere. I shudder at such categorizations as "Indians are more obsessed with skin color than any other group" This was hardly the case in our (largely South Indian) social circle. Like I said, you claim to have had an ideal childhood among all white people, and I believe you and take that at face value. My contribution was simply that this was not the case for me, or some people I know. So I didn't like how you assumed our problems must have been because of some defect of our own. That would mean that nearly every Indian kid I went to school with was defective. From there it's a slippery slope to an outright racist point of view. Not that I think you're racist, but I just wanted to point out that such problems do occur.

Ravidner, Gautham,

While it may be true in general, the statement was an absolute one [I bet a light skinned Indian couple...] and is therefore incorrect. See this..

The more pertinent question is: Why don't more Indian parents adopt? [And the answer has to do with governmental norms in addition to social attitudes.]

perhaps we should go back to an all-white immigration policy to shelter people from hurt and tension that ensues in a multiracial republic? :)

boo, may the hordes of ormuz, abyssinia and hind tramel upon this land :-)

non-racist term was Negro,

I believe the spanish term "negrito" - little blackie, is (was?) a term of endearment in Spain. But it is interesting to me how a longstanding community like the blacks still have dynamic contestations of identity; desis/browns are schizophrenic at the moment, but I write that off to being young here.

Forget all-white immigration, we should boot out EVERYONE and give it back to the Native Americans. That's honestly what I think. As for the rest? Some sort of retroactive Zionism. Let Western Europe deal with the population glut and lack of resources that everyone else has been facing for the past 300 years. It will be good for them to see how the other half lives.

Gautham,

i think saying that it is about 'race' is an out for some people, in brownland they might be taunted for a different reason because there's something about them that screams 'i am prey, come hunt me' (though i could be convinced by social science studies which control for variables).

i admitted my opinions were speculative and wanted some studies to shed light on it. i will stop assuming that those who feel the boot of racism more heavily than i are defective, yes, but please be a little more cautious in your generalizations of white people. i take it personally, some of my best friends are white :)

just an fyi, it seems that preference for black or african american is 50/50 among blacks/african americans.

There are a number of things that are problematic about that survey... including age group (what age range is considered "adult"), economic status... I only took a cursory glance, but I won't believe that statistic until they control for more variables.

I see your point, but this is not the experience I have had, especially with younger generations. I grew up using "African American" but have often been specifically asked to use the term "black." To each his or her own, I suppose. Plus, teenagers are a different and constantly changing (but deeply thoughtful and highly opinionated!!) breed.

In the case of the bolded, I don't doubt that you have had an entirely different experience then. I'm college-aged and at a pretty decent university... and for the most part, when black people get to college, they become much more aware of who they are. We don't emerge as pod people, but we definitely tend to change in a positive way, and generally this means learning about and having more of a desire to acknowledge our african roots. So I'm surrounded by people who prefer "African-American" in the formal sense.

and i know kids dont see race as a social differentiators the way grown-ups do. so why make it so? why go out of the way to create the imbalances, the partitions and the powerplays that are primarily societal constructs?

This would be a great way to "end racism" if ALL parents stuck to the FACT that we are all essentially the same. But children are impressionable and if they have parents who have certain views, at least some of the time they will share those views themselves. Trying to ignore the race conversation(s) would be setting your child up to fail. The fact is, kids don't care about a multitude of issues... that doesn't mean those issues aren't important.

desitude: "I believe the spanish term "negrito" - little blackie, is (was?) a term of endearment in Spain."

Yes, that has to do with a little pig called by that name, which is served as a delicacy. Hence, it is used as an affectionate term. Funnily, I came across this trivia in some article/book on the Tour De France. Can't recall which. :-)

Funny, I just blogged about that NYTimes article a couple of days ago. IMO if you're not down with the brown already, leave the babies where they are and walk the other direction...

I am AMAZED at the way people don't think about the simplest of things before they have, or in this case, adopt kids. I realize that the lady who wrote the article was being vulnerable and in doing so, really put herself out there but she was foolishly naive in her outlook.

It takes a remarkably adept and ferociously committed parent to adopt and raise that child in such a way that they feel grafted into their new family. That process is significantly complicated when everybody from the mailman to the grocery store clerk can see from a mile away that the child does not resemble the adoptive parent. I'm not sure why this woman didn't realize/think about that before she started seeking adoptive children--or have the balls to say, "I want a kid that looks like me."

Most people do want their kids to look and act like them whether or not they're honest enough to admit it. Is that racist? Naw. Vain? Yup. Wrong? You decide.

personally i really like this woman. every one of us *without exception* have prejudices. for some it is color, for some it is the languages spoken, accent or national origin, for others it is height, dress sense, education level, and what not.

the most i expect of anyone is that they recognize prejudices in themselves and try to correct themselves. i am surprised by the number of people who are jumping at her (in the original article comments rather than this thread)---and as always, i tend to be real wary of people who are "sure" they don't have prejudices.

tx for the "big picture" bytewords. i think it is cool to continue talking about the specific issues, but in the generality i laud this woman and her attempt to open up her heart. yes, she is not perfect, but none of us are, and i suspect her daughter will be lucky to have a mom who loves her with all her heart.

Hey Oneup,

In addition to the age factor, certain immigrant groups who identify with being "black" do not identify with being "African American." For example, when I taught in Brooklyn, most of my students/colleagues were of Guayanese/Trinidadian/Haitian heritage, and they cringed every time I used the term "African American." For some people, African American does not apply to more recent immigrants to the US or their children, but more to descendents of US slaves who have been on US soil for generations. They preferred the terms "black" or "Haitian American" instead. Same was also true for acquaintances I've had whose parents were from Eritrea or Uganda.

"This would be a great way to "end racism" if ALL parents stuck to the FACT that we are all essentially the same. But children are impressionable and if they have parents who have certain views, at least some of the time they will share those views themselves. Trying to ignore the race conversation(s) would be setting your child up to fail. The fact is, kids don't care about a multitude of issues... that doesn't mean those issues aren't important."

I think you're right on the money. Reminds me of the teachers in the world who think they are so progressive because "they don't see race" when dealing with the student. But not "seeing race" is ignoring the experiences that certain races have a higher probability of collectively sharing. A person is not only built by his life experiences, but very much so the life experiences of those around them.

Ravinder-

Why do you think that is? Do you think the Dravidians just woke up one day, looked at each other and decided "Man, we are some ugly mofos."

Or could there be some sort of reason that has propogated the "Light is Right" frame of thinking? Like the last 2,500 years of human history, perhaps?

Well, I don't know the exact reason behind this but apparently there is a deep rooted fixation for skin fairness in India. Look up the matrimonials and every second ad says something like 'Wanted a fair skinned bride...'. The fixation for fair skin is further nurtured in Indian media (advertising and bollywood). How may dark skinned actresses (or actors for that matter) have you seen in Hindi movies? The media definitely potrays fair skinned persons as more beautiful and successful.

When I was growing up in India, dark-skinned kids were teased regularly.

Maybe this all has to do with years of colonisation by Brits, who were white.

I see Lisa Lerner's statement about getting some "darker friends" as a way to make her daughter feel comfortable. I'm Bengali and my mom usually spouts off how much prettier the other girls are because they are "white". Lisa Lerner might not want her daughter to feel less confident. Now darker friends aren't really needed because that whole light skinned and dark skinned debate might not be as big among her social circle. I just hope she's not like the women in the commercials on NTV with their Fair and Lovely cream that is a supposed skin brightner.

Maybe this all has to do with years of colonisation by Brits, who were white.

mostly not i suspect.

Maybe this all has to do with years of colonisation by Brits, who were white.

I blame the Macedonians.

I apologize for the obviously "duh" statement about me being Bengali. I just rarely comment on here and have used other names.

This would be a great way to "end racism" if ALL parents stuck to the FACT that we are all essentially the same.

We are not all essentially the same. That assertion is the greatest "generalization" of all -- the PC bleedingheart lie that we are all alike. Oh so sentimental. Though, if you'd like to believe that sort of nonsense, your business.

this seems a good moment to quote something Yo Dad said earlier today:

As you have said let us not forget we all are Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Although some of the folks who visit and joins in the mutiny - you may wonder sometime - are still Cro-Magnon or Neanderthal

That

In addition to the age factor, certain immigrant groups who identify with being "black" do not identify with being "African American." For example, when I taught in Brooklyn, most of my students/colleagues were of Guayanese/Trinidadian/Haitian heritage, and they cringed every time I used the term "African American." For some people, African American does not apply to more recent immigrants to the US or their children, but more to descendents of US slaves who have been on US soil for generations. They preferred the terms "black" or "Haitian American" instead. Same was also true for acquaintances I've had whose parents were from Eritrea or Uganda.

Thank you Siddhartha.

At the end of the day we are all human. Sometimes there are genetic differences that cause issue (especially with regard to diseases and such) but last I checked, people of different races can still get together and create another human being.

I could be wrong though... so, R. K. Khan, can you please explain the ways in which different races of people are still fundamentally different?

Regarding the whole brown among whites experience:

The more popular desi girls in my almost all white school in fly-over were more dark-skinned than the less popular desi girls. Okay, we are talking like a population of 5. Still, the most popular was the darkest. And she was funny, kind, friendly, athletic and a total pep squad type. Wow. That sounds like kinda mean, but, I really liked her and don't mean it to be mean.

Also, the white boys had no problem with dating me; my Indian parents didn't want me to date period.

(Razib and Manju and I had good experiences in school, it seems, despite being a minority. How do you suppose this colors (sorry) our experiences and informs our politics?)

If any white lurkers on this site are looking for a brown friend, I would be very grateful if you chose me. I am willing to work up from the level of acquaintaince if you'd prefer that.

Oh, and I admire anyone willing to adopt a child. I think she's over-thinking things. She should love her daughter, encourage her and help her to confident in her own person.

"We are not all essentially the same. That assertion is the greatest "generalization" of all -- the PC bleedingheart lie that we are all alike. Oh so sentimental. Though, if you'd like to believe that sort of nonsense, your business."

I think the context is in a more biological, and certain intrinsic quality sense: we all breathe air, we all have basic needs: food, shelter, clothing, etc.., we all seek happiness in one form or other, all of our bodies & organs (including our hearts) bleed when poked, etc..

R. K. Khan, can you please explain the ways in which different races of people are still fundamentally different?

Chimps and humans aren't really fundamentally different in the loose sense. Though we could coast the net even wider if we are going to stick to the loose sense. Does being part of the same "species" imply a unity? But only in the most basic and loosest generalizing sense. Chimpazees seek pleasure, need nourishment, feel hatred etc. All the same, eh? Being part of a "species" does not mean that significant differences do not exist or that we are all the same. Bottom line is we're not. So can the various breeds of dogs (a species) mate together, but this does not mean that those breeeds are not very, very different in many ways.

rk khan is not the time or place.

but this does not mean that those breeeds are not very, very different in many ways

Ways like what? As applied to humans, of course.

I don't think you can come up with an example without resorting to stereotypes that can easily be disproved.

Superdork,

So for love of Shiva, of course there's going to be an element of strangness in all this interracial adopting.

Um, shouldn't that be for love of Krishna?

(and people, please don't feed the Cro-Magnons)

I don't think you can come up with an example without resorting to stereotypes that can easily be disproved.

Ahh, now I understand your language. Just as I thought. Have a great evening sir.

(and people, please don't feed the Cro-Magnons)

You're right... but one last thing:

Have a great evening sir.

Oneup is most definitely female.

I thought the Cro-Magnons were the more gracile types who left the cave paintings. It is not a diss to call someone a Cro-mag, AFAIK. Cro's were pretty advanced types. I think you mean neanderthals or other archaiac sapiens.

Re: "Basically every group of people on Earth is racist because most people are programmed from Birth to prefer people that look, think, talk and act like themselves."

Well, this probably applies more to cultural heritage or some other group affiliation -- in that people of certain cultural groups (tribes, states, faith, etc) prefer those of their own background.

But, skin color doesn't necessarily fall in this paradigm. We all know that there exist many dark-skinned Indians, Africans, and Asians who prefer being lighter themselves and also in a mate and their offspring. This is most clearly demonstrated by the market for skin lighteners in India, Africa, and other Asian countries. (what is particularly troubling are skin-lighteners for babies/children -- have any of you seen the ads on Indian TV for these products?? crazy the crap people are willing to put on their kids to get them whiter...doesn't matter if they get cancer along the way!). This is not biological, rather a product of society...though someone is dark (as are all in his/her community and family members), he/she prefers a lighter mate and a lighter child because light skin confers an advantage in many walks of life. The risks involved in skin lightening don't even compare to these advantages, so people are willing to go through all kinds of treatments to become lighter.

oneup

Trying to ignore the race conversation(s) would be setting your child up to fail.

But not "seeing race" is ignoring the experiences that certain races have a higher probability of collectively sharing.

I'm not sure why this woman didn't realize/think about that before she started seeking adoptive children--or have the balls to say, "I want a kid that looks like me."

ok.. i'm just a little disturbed by all these musings. Fail in what? What collective experience? Adoptee catalogues.. huh!!

may be you've had bad experiences. and are bitter about it. but would you want the child to grow up and be as bitter, or would you rather that he/she believe in the essential goodness of humanity and consider racism as severe deviations from the norm.

i am reminded of this one experience i had in the grocery store. a boy no more than 8 was setting right a bag of onions at the bottom of a cart. as he got up, his head hit against the lower end of the cage and he started bawling. a little old lady was shopping nearby and came over, cooing and asking how he was doing. the mum, a really grim looking person came over pulled the boy away and i heard her telling him, "Dont ever! Ever! let anyone feel sorry for you." WTF, I thought. This kid's going to grow up into this emotionally inaccessible cold person who will never get a chance to experience the beauty of the social experience because he will never take the risk of being emotionally vulnerable - raw in front of someone else.

how jaded, thick skinned and hard does one have to be, to get by. why not believe in a perfect world? it is possible.

ok.. i'm just a little disturbed by all these musings. Fail in what?

Anytime a person is not prepared for an oncoming obstacle, they are setting themselves up for failure. Its even worse when that person has no idea that obstacle might pop up, because then they dont even have the know-how to think on their feet. I am not bitter and I don't go around thinking everyone I meet will be racist. But when I do encounter discrimination I am not caught off guard. And more importantly, if I do have a negative experience I have a community of people who can relate to it.

And that's what I think *some* people are missing. This might be offensive to some, but I am completely against the idea of raising a non-white child to be completely whitewashed and oblivious. I don't like the idea of raising a child who is so cut off from his own culture that he can't find anyone to really relate to. Sure, the author could raise the child pretending she is American(oh how I hate when people say this to mean white)/Jewish, but the rest of world is going to see an Indian.

I actually have no problem with who adopts the brown/black/yellow kids of the world, but I do disagree with setting kids up to be ignorant of how things are. Instead of trying to avoid discussing race, why not raise children with a real knowledge of the recent past so they can hit the ground running when it comes time to make positive changes for the future. I feel that's a little more realistic..

Instead of trying to avoid discussing race, why not raise children with a real knowledge of the recent past so they can hit the ground running when it comes time to make positive changes for the future.

this i agree with.

This might be offensive to some, but I am completely against the idea of raising a non-white child to be completely whitewashed and oblivious. I don't like the idea of raising a child who is so cut off from his own culture that he can't find anyone to really relate to.

this is am ambivalent about. i think it is totally cool to raise a kid to be whitewashed, though one should prepare them for questions. i had a friend who was raised in singapore who was eurasian, and kids would ask him his race in elementary school. his parents told him to tell them to "f*ck off." that's preparation :) people ask me questions about hinduism all the time, well, i went and learned some stuff so i could give them something after telling them that my background wasn't hindu.

how people perceive isn't destiny, it is just another big parameter in your life. parents who adopt brown, asian, black, etc. should be candid about racial issues, and, how people perceive them. but, that does not mean that the children have to inculcated in the values or history of the group with which others identify them with. those of us who are brown, but not from a hindu background, can comprehend this i think :)

It's interesting what kind of racial perspectives we have on Sepia Mutiny. I wonder why no one has yet (unless I missed it) consulted any perspectives by people of color adopted by whites. Many of the claims of cultural genocide have been related to inter-"racial" adoption's problematic history as a deliberate means to re-educate the less fortunate savages. I think that the modern white liberal mindset often promotes some of these paternalistic views. I personally find it highly ridiculous when anyone tries to pretend that race and color are not relevant social factors today. Not really sure how anyone who has brown skin can't get that, but I'm consistently proven ass-backwards-wrong when I peruse the posts here. I find that most of my desi friends - the types who aren't as overeducated as this bunch and probably don't read too many blogs - have a basic agreement on the fact that racism is a hard reality for us. I wonder if this is a class bias - the more upper-class your existence, the more likely you are to pretend that race doesn't exist or is less of an issue than it actually is.

The ideology of colorblindness is IMO highly damaging to people of color and to white people too. As long as you pretend race is not a social reality, you'll never begin to solve some of the root causes of social problems.

My personal experience has been that when whites and people of color decide to be truly honest about acknowledging all levels of racism, particularly white liberal racism (which comes out amongst gentrifiers, paternalistic adopters, activists with fetishes, etc), there begins to be some real growth and sharing and even understanding among people. Somehow that is too scary for most people to approach.

yeti,

perhaps if you didn't use the priggish righteous voice you might 'education' (should i say 're-educate') us :)

Um, shouldn't that be for love of Krishna?

Nah. Shiva's my man. I mean god. I am a deconstructionist at heart.

anyway, a segregated america policy would make life so much less angsty :) at least for someone people. the rest of us are ok with ignoring the shadow-boot-on-the-white-foot-on-our-necks.

"Forget all-white immigration, we should boot out EVERYONE and give it back to the Native Americans"
Everyone? Desis too? Zoroastrians? Everyone! So Euros go back to Europe after some 500 years and then they kick out all the browns there--they'll have to after all. Maybe that's the way to go. Games up. Everybody back to your own rooms. Like those crazy animation films where you see the atoms exploding outward to the edges of the universe and then back in again.
Ah, we'll be adopting ets before that happens.

anyway, a segregated america policy would make life so much less angsty :) at least for someone people. the rest of us are ok with ignoring the shadow-boot-on-the-white-foot-on-our-necks.

Whitey-tude isn't even a possiblity anymore. The current white pop is, I believe 68%, and it will be in the high 50s quite soon. So I suggest you give up and embrace the race talk, because its going to intensify :)

The current white pop is, I believe 68%, and it will be in the high 50s quite soon.

the non-hispanic white population. in any case, there are still parts of america where one race is overwhelmingly dominant where you aren't raced to death :)

Oneup, siddhartha:

"can't help but wonder what the racial and economic backgrounds of her liberal friends are. I think this idea the race doesn't matter at all is one of the biggest reasons I don't identify with liberals."

I consider myself socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I think race does matter...it is important to have cultural diversity...makes life more interesting. More to the point, however, race should not used for bias, and the law should prevent it from being used for bias. In that respect, race shouldn't matter at all.

On adopting a child from a different background, there are bound to be cultural, social and racial issues that have to be dealt with. Also, adoption is a very personal thing, and the parent does have the right to decide whom they are willing to adopt. Lisa Lerner, however, seems woefully unprepared and misinformed to deal with adopting and bringing up a child from a different culture.

I have white friends who have adopted Indian children who are dark-skinned. However, we do belong to a spiritual organization that has a large brown presence, so they are very aware of Indian culture and the country. I guess that would be key to bringing up a child from a different culture successfully - knowledge of that culture and a support group from it whom you can go to for help on any issues that may come up.

However, we do belong to a spiritual organization that has a large brown presence, so they are very aware of Indian culture and the country

Which one?

"Chimps and humans aren't really fundamentally different in the loose sense. "

Yes they are, human beings have developed language, complex emotions, and higher intellectual capacity, I don't think a chimp can think to himself, "where will I be in 5 years?", where as humans (unfortunately) are forced to think that every time they go for an interview.