evening prayer -- reminds me of the scene from Mr & Mrs Iyer with the old man (Bhism sahani).

I am impressed. So far they [ the arilines ] have somehow managed to single out only Muslim men for scrutiny.

Nice article..siddartha..

TWA = Travelling While Asian?..while we are it,why not try to get some acronym that's up & kicking...

1.SOAP = SOuth Asians on Plane (then it would go well with...."I had enough of these motherf***** southasians on these MotherF***** planes)
2.BKP = Brown Kundi on Plane
3.WTnF = Watch The non-Firang
4.BLT Traveller = "Baggy-pyjamas Lungis and Third World" Traveller

so long as groups of young Middle Eastern men have the market on airborne mass murder cornered, there is some rationale behind profiling

Don't forget that they are rapidly diversifying in the railborne area too. Though they may have botched theirlatest attempt in Germany. Given their past persistence, am sure the Germans will not be so lucky again.

thank you vikram. the convenience store owner at 145th and amsterdam is middle eastern too. should i be worried he will poison my gatorade?

No problem Siddhartha, take a swig and get back to us on that. Only way to know...

All desis should be made to fly in the buff and be probed anally before and after the flight. That way atleast I would see some fine desi tail while getting it up my arse.

Before we jump on the Dutch authorities, let’s stop for just a moment. You have a flight going to Mumbai, so there is probably going to be a majority of Indians, many of them men. We read in the reports that it was their behavior, reported by other passengers, (presumably Indian) arose suspicion. If “racial profiling” were the chief cause of their detentions, wouldn’t this be an example of Indians profiling Indians?

Now, we can say we see others using cellphones until the last moment and getting out of their seats, but considering that airline security was all over the news for two weeks, is it wise to draw attention to yourself by engaging in behavior that will draw attention from other passengers, even those with whom you share an ethnic background? There were plenty of other Indians on that flight that were not arrested, because they followed the crew's orders.

Change the setting – you are boarding a subway train, and you see about a dozen men or so (you pick the race) getting noisy, jumping from one seat to the next. Do you consider getting off the train, or perhaps switching cars? Of course, you cannot do that once a plane is airborne.

This is in contrast to the British flight that kicked off two men just for their appearance. They did not engage in anything that may arouse suspicion. They just boarded a plane and that alone freaked out the other passengers – that was racial profiling, IMHO.

Another amusing item – the government of India is lodging a protest with the Netherlands. A 24 hour detention merits such a protest, but Indian laborers working under harsh conditions in Middle Eastern countries merits silence.

Additionally, and this is solely my viewpoint, it is my experience that Indians (from India) tend to throw manners out the window when they are the majority in a setting – whether it is in a plane, restaurant, or waiting in line. When white or black people are around, they will exhibit impeccable manners and courtesy, but feel that such courtesy need not be extended to their own, unless money is being exchanged or impressing a marriage prospect.

Excellent summary of a f**ked up situation, Siddhartha - very troubling to me personally more since in a few months time this macaca have to get his sepia self onto airplanes every week. I suppose I will have to ensure that I do not ever do any of the following:

1) Fidget with mobile phones, and exchange plastic bags with other passengers [1]
2) Cheer if a mobile phone/ Blackberry rings at or after takeoff saying that I have won a million dollar jackpot/ or France won the World Cup/ etc
3) Wear ethnic grab or grow a beard modeled after one of the arrested gentleman [2]
4) Sit in front of, or next to one Mr. Nitin Patel of Boston, who like the “Chosen One” thinks with his "gut" [3]
5) Suffer from an attack of amnesia, forget English, and revert to language of Faiz Ahmed Faiz or Ghalib, and thus forget to fasten my seatbelt [4]

Ref:
1)from Swissinfo.org

2)from an 8/25 NYTimes article

3)from a CBS News report:"The Algemeen Dagblad newspaper quoted Nitin Patel of Boston, who sat behind the men in business class, as saying, "I don't know how close we were, but my gut tells me these people wanted to hijack the airplane.""

4)from a Huston Chronicle article:They described the men as between 25 and 35 years old and speaking Urdu, the language commonly spoken in Pakistan and by many of India's Muslims. Some had beards, and some wore a shalwar kameez, a long shirt and baggy pants commonly worn by South Asian Muslims. A Scottish tourist, Stewart Nichols, said he saw the 12 being handcuffed by three armed air marshals. "I don't think that any of them behaved suspiciously." "They were not fastening seat belts despite being told so by the airline staff," Nichols said.

KXB
Dayum, that was so deep. Thank God we have apologists like you around!
I guess Indians deserved the British Raj. They were after all savages.

Weird coincidence...

Tim Nelson, the flight instructor who first told FBI officials about Al-Qaida operative Zacarias Moussaoui's presence and behavior at an Eagan flight school in August, 2001, was on the Northwest flight, according to his wife, Jodie. http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/15345691.htm

desidawg - if a white guy talking black is a wigger, does that make a desi guy talking black a digger?

While I am as big a fan of sarcasm as anyone, and you clearly demonstrate a Jedi-level grasp of this art, my post was not intended to excuse behavior but explain it. In a period spanning less than 12 months, Indians have experienced a train bombing in Mumbai, a bombing at a pilgrimage site in Varanasi, and a bombing of Diwali shoppers. Add in the daily irritations of living in a country where the air is not fit to breathe, the water is not safe to drink, and the roads suck. people will begin to think the only way they can secure their safety is through their own actions.

Now, considering that we in the U.S. do not have to deal with terrorism with the frequency that Indians do, it is a bit much for American-based posters to lecture them on not jumping to conclusions. Again, if these men were bahving as the rest of the passengers, most of whom were Indian, would they have been detained?

The accusation of 'prank' seems to come with the typical reliability of the British Press. Someone somewhere says it was a prank, the press asks the desis 'was it a prank'. Desis say no. Automatic story headline 'Suspected terrorists deny prank'.

Similarly, the press has claimed the desis said 'we have 30 minutes tro live' They said they didn'd say it. Nobody directly heard them say it. Headline 'Suspected terrorists deny suicide wish'.

Maccaca can't bet a break.

this is just bad all around. Their beards made them marked men

There goes my dream of going to amsterDAMN to enjoy some hashbrownies

KXB
Additionally, and this is solely my viewpoint, it is my experience that Indians (from India) tend to throw manners out the window...

That makes you racist in a unique way(though not uniquely racist). Congratulations.

I just had to point out how splendid the title of this thread is. Kudos Mr. Siddhartha!

KXB
Just wondering if a group of blue-eyed, blond frat boys returning from a sex romp in Amsterdam would have "aroused suspicion" even if they did the same things?
Think about it.

Kissmyfobass,

Dude - I'm really digging the selective quoting.

You would be amazed at how many people in the airline industry(people who like to travel and explore new places and cultures) clearly dont go anywhere or have no clue on other societies. There are a lot of Flight Attendants who will fly and bid on routes from some point A in their domestic country some point B in a new international destination only if it that routes includes secure habitation at the new international destination.

So in the case of flying on some routes to India, Flight Attendants are shuttled from the airport in their 'secure' private bus to and from the airport to their 5 star hotels in secluded enclaves. Most of the time their stays in the international destinations dont let them interact freely with the people of that country in their own society and way of life. Consequently, this leaves Flight Attendants with a view of skewed view of that society and culture that is sheltered from a true immersion and understanding that comes with time spent truely with the people that are on the same flight they came over with.

So in the case of the NWA flight to BOM it can be inferred that is the problem of the airline and not the specific flight attendant since he/she may not have been the right person for that route. The Dutch Ambassador to India should be questioning NWA on their judgement of what caliber Flight Attendants are working their flights to India...

All it took, according to the Regime, to get you stripped of your civil rights and hauled off to Guantanamo Bay was the Preznit saying you were a suspected terrorist.

And now? The power is in the hands of the people. Your enemy, Muslim brother on the plane, is the Hindu brother behind you the one who is "uncomfortable" with your presence. Your enemy, Hindu aunty, is your white neighbor. And you, Sardar-ji: the African-American is out to get you.

What do we need the Preznit for, when we can do our oppressing so well by ourselves. Fear is the real leader now.

Oh Arthur Miller! How deeply we miss you!

I read this only yesterday in our newspaper.(NRC Handelsblad) The way the article was put, it seemed as though these men were not really warned because of fears of highjacking but because they were causing trouble. And yes, I've seen such bad manners on my India flights as well this summer. The plane has not yet reached the gate or people are making noise and switching on their cells. My father complained that during their flight(we flew seperately) a wise guy turned on his phone in mid-air! But I guess this is general anti-social behaviour rather than being specific to Indians. Although my sister was unhappy about the time when she went to see a film in India. According to her there were a great number of people disrupting the showing by talking and switching on their phones.

Just wondering if a group of blue-eyed, blond frat boys returning from a sex romp in Amsterdam would have "aroused suspicion" even if they did the same things?
Think about it.

John Mendoza (underrated comic from the 90's), "What if there were no hypothetical situations?" If you focus on the issue at hand, you see a planeload of Indians reporting the behvior of other Indians. Change the location from Amsterdam to New Delhi - does it make the news?

Another apologist has his take here.

kxb said:

"Again, if these men were bahving as the rest of the passengers, most of whom were Indian, would they have been detained?"

---

At this point, kxb, from my reading of the accounts of passengers in various news reports, all I can conclude is that only the "Holy Ghost", the effing North West crew, and the arrested passengers themselves know what really happened on that flight. So your conflation of this situation with men monkeying around a subway train (which btw, I have done in the past - should I be sent to Gitmo for my sins?)is f**ked up!

Btw, do mutineers know if any of this flight crew or air marshals were macacas? For some reason, me thinks not.

Siddhartha,
I don't know if those buses are so safe either.
Remember the Chinatown Bus Wars of 2004?

Exactly my dear genteel Meena. Those natives with bad manners!
Ah the good old days of the Raj. I miss them.

The gentlemen on the Amsterdam-Mumbai flight were deemed suspicious because they were fiddling with mobile phones and chatting loudly around the time of take-off. Uh, excuse me? Anyone here ever traveled in the Third World?

Look, you weren't there nor was I. The problem wasn't fiddling with their phones, it was not following crew instructions. As a group, when you don't follow instructions/rules, you bring scrutiny upon yourselves. Add the current geopolitical climate and you're not doing yourself a favor. From whatever I've scanned through on Google News, they were changing seats, using cell phones, etc during the take off phase. Maybe an individual doing so would not trigger the same response, but a group of men possibly would.

Seriously folks, there are a few things one can do to mitigate risk. Following crew instructions, even if they are mindless, is the most basic and fundamental one. Did those guys need to be arrested? Probably not. But groups have been known to use probing techniques to get a feel of what a response, if a particular approach is used, would be.

Incidents range from sheer stupidity of security personnel to stupidity on the passenger's part.

No need to stop flying. Just follow common sense and be aware of your surroundings. I fly frequently enough to where I do the following:

1) All metal objects are stashed in the carry on before I come up to the X-Ray/metal detectors. Everyone should do this as it moves the line faster.

2) Observe the surroundings. If people are tense or seem wary, project an assertive (NOT AGGRESSIVE) attitude, a cool confidence, smile, and be courteous. TSA/Security personnel are people, too, they may not be the most competant and cooling their insecurities helps.

3) If you're standing in line and notice people are uncomfortable, engage a few folks in common chit chat. When talking to security personnel or old ladies, use "Sir" or "Ma'am". If someone holds a door for you or makes way in a line or picks something you've dropped, thank them, smile and make eye contact. Again, everyone should do these things as it is good behavior.

4) FOLLOW AIR CREW INSTRUCTIONS AND USE YOUR PHONE BEFORE THE PLANE DEPARTS THE GATE FOR LORDS SAKE and clear any seat changes with the aircrew. If you don't know what to do, ASK THE CREW.

No need to stop flying. Just be aware and mindful of your surroundings and use the appropriate tact.

Meena..."my sister was unhappy about the time when she went to see a film in India. According to her there were a great number of people disrupting the showing by talking and switching on their phones."

That is very true!.. the explosion of Cellphone usage has brought with it, a lot of nuisance in India. Movie theaters(atleast a dozen cell phone conversations before a feature film is over), hospitals,buses, trains,restaurants, TEMPLES..are all victims of unrestricted usage of cellphones.

And yes!..they seem to slightly enjoy the "unease" others go through while they "chit chat" on their mobile.

I'm curious, but aren't suicide bombers generally clean-shaven, extremely well-behaved and unobtrusive? Wouldn't they wink at smile at the baby one seat over, and politely assist the air-stewards in stowing overhead bags? What terrorist in his right mind would start monkeying (no pun intended) around before take-off?

Acting like an ass should give you a free pass.

(damn I feel like Johnny Cochran)

Additionally, and this is solely my viewpoint, it is my experience that Indians (from India) tend to throw manners out the window when they are the majority in a setting – whether it is in a plane, restaurant, or waiting in line. When white or black people are around, they will exhibit impeccable manners and courtesy, but feel that such courtesy need not be extended to their own, unless money is being exchanged or impressing a marriage prospect.

This is my opinion too. While I have witnessed it at several places across the US, this behavior is best exhibited at a place called 'Oak Tree Road' in Edison, New Jersey.

That makes you racist in a unique way(though not uniquely racist). Congratulations.

Kissmyfobass - that is utterly absurd conclusion.

t. So your conflation of this situation with men monkeying around a subway train (which btw, I have done in the past - should I be sent to Gitmo for my sins?)is f**ked up!

No - illustrating the plane and train examples is comparison, not conflation. Arguing that a 24 detention, followed up with an apology is the same as multiple yeras in Gitmo without a lawyer - that's conflation.

Exactly my dear genteel Meena. Those natives with bad manners! Ah the good old days of the Raj. I miss them.

Every khaki-clad, buttoned-down, yellow-tied Joe from sales and Tim from marketing (not to mention Ashok from strategic planning) is futzing with his phone until the moment wheels leave the ground and again from the instant they touch down.

Sorry, this isn't true for 'everyone'. Most flights I've been on, people shut their phones off when asked, a few that don't have been immediately reprimanded by the crew and they shut stuff off. After the planes have landed, most take turn their phones on when the pilot/crew say 'cell phones use is premitted' or something along those lines.

I was reading the becker posner blog and there was an interesting suggestion made in favor of profling - make it pleasant with incentives with the necessary competant TSA personnel on the other end. Monetary, food, drinks, whatever. If they started giving out free stuff for submission to increased checks, seriously, all Gujaratis would line up. Forget trolling in Costco for free food, just go to the aiports.

meena: "Although my sister was unhappy about the time when she went to see a film in India. According to her there were a great number of people disrupting the showing by talking and switching on their phones."
...

Sadly yes, meena, we are like this only. And your sister hasn't seen nothin' yet - dancing in the aisles, running film criticism, throwing confetti over the screen, etc. That said, many desi "fillums" (am assuming you sister went to see a desi fillum), or for that matter firangi "fillums", don't deserve the reverential silence given by the audiences in the West. But back to macacas on the plane...

Arguing that a 24 detention, followed up with an apology is the same as multiple yeras in Gitmo without a lawyer

KXB: I am presuming you dont agree with the detentions without access to lawyers at GITMO. I guess conservatives are coming around.

Ah the good old days of the Raj. I miss them

Because everyone knows that prior to the Raj - all those Indian got along just swell with one another.

GujuDude,
Thank you so much for the invaluable tips. Very thoughtful of you. Just one question-should I do with my kesh and my snakes?

I'm curious, but aren't suicide bombers generally clean-shaven, extremely well-behaved and unobtrusive?

Considering that the bombers/hijackers are constantly evolving their strategies, it is not unlikely to think that there could be two teams... one the obvious noisy attention grabbing team to create a diversion and the "stealth" team to take advantage of the situation as it would draw the undercover air marshals out into the open (though from what one reads they are not too hard to spot thanks to the TSA morons).

KXB: I am presuming you dont agree with the detentions without access to lawyers at GITMO. I guess conservatives are coming around.

I'd have to agree with you on this one - considering that most of the guys there are small fry, Gitmo has outlived whatever usefullnes it may have once had. Give them a trial and be done with it.

Sadly yes, meena, we are like this only. And your sister hasn't seen nothin' yet - dancing in the aisles, running film criticism, throwing confetti over the screen, etc. That said, many desi "fillums" (am assuming you sister went to see a desi fillum), or for that matter firangi "fillums", don't deserve the reverential silence given by the audiences in the West. But back to macacas on the plane...

Although I remember a (when I look back) very amusing incident in an elevator in a department store in India...

I'm curious, but aren't suicide bombers generally clean-shaven, extremely well-behaved and unobtrusive? Wouldn't they wink at smile at the baby one seat over, and politely assist the air-stewards in stowing overhead bags? What terrorist in his right mind would start monkeying (no pun intended) around before take-off?

Good point. They probably would. But this isn't about suicide bombers, its about normal people getting caught up in others insecurities and how to temper em. If the guys are already on the plane, it would take a very last minute fight to stop the guy (Richard Reid trying to light the fuze on his shoe bomb).

Like I said though, security personnel are also looking out for groups probing, trying to set off alarms to see what the hidden measures would be.

GujuDude, I think what you say depends on the flight's context - what might work on domestic flights may not work perfectly on an international flights with passengers who may be more enamoured with their cellphones. Cultural flexibility is the key, me thinks. Besides what are the rules for convergent devices such as Treos etc?

"My grandmum is actually quite nostalgic about the Raj. "Those were good times", are her own words. No kidding. Although I suppose life must've certainly been a lot easier for the daughter of a prominent civil servant than for the average Indian labourer. Ah, the stories she has to tell!"

Those were the days my dear. The days when young men would devote entire lives in the service of the white man's burden.

GujuDude,

Sorry, this isn't true for 'everyone'. Most flights I've been on, people shut their phones off when asked, a few that don't have been immediately reprimanded by the crew and they shut stuff off. After the planes have landed, most take turn their phones on when the pilot/crew say 'cell phones use is premitted' or something along those lines.

Just one question-should I do with my kesh and my snakes?

Make sure you have Mace Windu on the plane to deal with those mother effin snakes. And have an abunance of small dogs on the plane to feed the anaconda or python abourd. Lots of exotic anti-venom, too.

This is my opinion too. While I have witnessed it at several places across the US, this behavior is best exhibited at a place called 'Oak Tree Road' in Edison, New Jersey.

In the Chicago area, you have to go to the Hot Wok in Rolling Meadows - excellent Indian-style Chinese food, ruined by boorish families letting their children run around, bumping into the waitstaff, and spilling food on the floor. These same families would scold their kids for acting up in a McDonalds, but hey, I guess we're all family here.

Incidents range from sheer stupidity of security personnel to stupidity on the passenger's part. No need to stop flying. Just follow common sense and be aware of your surroundings. I fly frequently enough to where I do the following:

as someone who regularly runs through homeland security inquisitions on trips to hte u.s. and who looks very jihadist - here are my tips to add on to gujudue's pointers - particularly relevant to canadians traveling south. Mind you, i work under the assumption that these guys are all doing their job. i would expect nothing less than thoroughness from them.

1. When you get to the guy at the security desk. Stand loose. Feet shoulder width apart demonstrating confidence. shoulders loose. drop your boarding pass, passport and the blue form and step back a little. Do not lean forward on to the desk. We are not supplicants. We will be asked questions - sometimes twice to make sure our 'story' is the same. Be calm. Clear your head and smooth your brow. I am very machinic in this. no emotion. like a buddha. i've seen people get flustered and while they still get the stamp, i find it embarassing. it's a kick to my pride to see someone else broken down.

2. at the security check, as gugu pointed out - try not to wear any metal. i dont even wear a belt and my shoes do not have steel plates (yes, sometimes i walk through ) - and if you're one of the fruit loops with rings all over - well good luck - enjoy your personal outrage - i rejoice in your bile build up.

3. dress to win. really - i enjoy the confidence a charcoal suit gives to me - no i dont wear a suit everytime but i wouldnt show up in pj's either. this reflects in the service (yes, service!) i get from security staff.

yes, there 's the odd bad 'un out there - but most of them are regular joes and janes. in a grocery store environment most of these would be holding doors open for me.

this is my land as much as theirs... i'm not leaving anytime soon. and i'm not changing my behavior.

Just read that the Dutch authorities have denied apologizing for this event.

The problem with this blog and other reports is that everything is just speculation for now. We don't really know why this incident was triggered and by who. I think it is plausible that these folks were clumsy enough to cause panic in fellow passengers - not wearing seat belts and walking up and down the aisle exchanging mobile phones in today's environment is not exactly a wise thing to do (if this is the correct version of what caused this event). At minimum these folks were either ignorant or idiots. I have personally reported an Indian brother on a Gulf Air flight for lighting up a smoke in a non-smoking area. The flight attendant was first polite and told him to extinguish the cigarette. He did so but only to light it up again after she left. She came back again and took it from him and extinguished it herself. I then asked for and moved my seats because i really did not want to enjoy second hand smoke especially when it was banned. So there is some truth in what KXB states in his post above (#8). If this was a US or European airline he would surely been off the plane and I think it would have been justified.

Incidents such as the one that just happened in Holland are bound to happen in this climate. What the authorities have to do is balance our civil rights against security for all.

What i find funny is that nobody blames Mr. Bin Laden and company for all the mess and hassle we are facing in our daily lives.

"This has def been my experience as well. I've flown within Europe as well as to the USA and India, and only this past year have I noticed this sort of anti-social behaviour. Although there was an old Sikh standing in the isle during turbulence, but his age is of course a mitigating factor(probably he doesn't speak English either?)."

Ah yes my dear. The natives never could learn the language but the Sikhs they were the finest soldiers.

What i find funny is that nobody blames Mr. Bin Laden and company for all the mess and hassle we are facing in our daily lives.

The real jihad is within.

Those who know, know.

Those were the days my dear. The days when young men would devote entire lives in the service of the white man's burden.

The Brits did not introduce servility into India, it was already there.

Never experienced any issues myself, but I'm not sure where whining about the racism of "the man" is going to get anybody. The very act of migration to the United States is an implicit acceptance of some degree of subjugation to pervasive white supremacy. You either live it, or you buy an airline and/or try to take over the government.

Gujudude,
Mace Windu? That will make my snakes inedible won't it? I like tomato sauce with my snakes.
What about my kesh? Should I carry lots of kesh or only my credir cards?

"Anyone here ever traveled in the Third World?"

Third world. Whats that?. It is as racial to me as "Welcome to America" means to you. Since me being from India. I was researching and found the term "Third world" was coined by one of our racist friends from France. I don't know how much i can believe a wiki post. But I am pretty sure to tell everyone it stings me in the right places. Developing world sounds nice to me. Since India is not stagnating anymore, i really like that word. We are not a colony anymore, so please lets not use that word.

As a group, when you don't follow instructions/rules, you bring scrutiny upon yourselves. Add the current geopolitical climate and you're not doing yourself a favor. From whatever I've scanned through on Google News, they were changing seats, using cell phones, etc during the take off phase. Maybe an individual doing so would not trigger the same response, but a group of men possibly would.

Hasn't history and experience taught us by now that terrorists ALWAYS sit apart from from each other in order to avoid arousing suspicion? But what does it matter when people feel so afwaid?

If this is what sets off the irrational fears of passengers, we may as well all be dead. I'm sure the real terrorists are loving this diversion. What an easy job they have!

kxb @ comment 30: got no iron-y? :) That said, yes, I would be mad as hell if I got detained for 24 hours for no good reason, subsequent apology or no apology. Where is my Kafka when I need him...

Well, I scanned the newspaper again. The headline on page 3 says that the other passengers thought that the troublemakers were "more annoying than terrorist". Anyway the common line the article seems to be taking is that these people were merely causing disturbance.

That's right, folks: you should be arrested and jailed, and your plane should be escorted by F-frigging-16's, if you talk on cellphones and are uncouth in your social manners. Glad we were able to clarify that.

In December of 2001, when I was about to board a flight from LAX to Malaysia, two gentlemen dressed in navy blue suits and sunglasses (I kid you not) swooped out of nowhere and demanded for my passport and travel documentation. In the midst of rushing to board a plane, I hadn't realized that these were probably FBI operatives, and the sleek move with which they sidestepped me completely caught me off by surprise. I wasn't harassed, but it seemed as though they were "looking" for something wrong. During the entire ordeal, I was more concerned about getting to my plane on time. The fact they sort of begrudgingly let me off only struck me as strange much later.

On board, about an hour's away from landing in Sepang, Kuala Lumpur Int., enlightenment dawned on my bare horizon that I hadn't freshened my facehole during the entire 16 hour trip, mostly due to ruminating on the incident at LAX. Panicking that my parents were going to greet their son with the funkiest breath imaginable, I jumped out of my seat, reached into the overhead compartment, dragged out my carry-on, rummaged through it hysterically, muttering under my breath for my freaking travel kit. When I looked up after finding what I was frantically looking for, I was greeted by inexplicably horrified stares by he entire economy class. God knows what played through their minds, but something hinted along the lines of the most macabre kind. I smiled, apologized for startling their delicate, conceited sensibilities, just because brown boy with fro and goatee here forgot to brush his teeth. The thing is, had a white dude, with a fro and goatee, done the same thing, it probably would have been brushed off as eccentric behavior, but by virtue of being brown, my erratic movements were subverted into the most corrosive ones possible. Just a personal experience I thought I would share.

Where is my Kafka when I need him...

Probably sitting alongside some Dutch cartoonists.

"Well, I scanned the newspaper again. The headline on page 3 says that the other passengers thought that the troublemakers were "more annoying than terrorist". Anyway the common line the article seems to be taking is that these people were merely causing disturbance."

Ah yes my dear Meena. These natives can indeed be very annoying. For one they eat spicy food and this gives them an animalistic sexual urge. They also do not engage in proper hygiene. Indeed the ways of soap and water are unknown to them.

My, my the good old days of the Raj, my heart yearns for them so.

Ah yes my dear Meena. These natives can indeed be very annoying. For one they eat spicy food and this gives them an animalistic sexual urge. They also do not engage in proper hygiene. Indeed the ways of soap and water are unknown to them.

My, my the good old days of the Raj, my heart yearns for them so.

Didn't you know that I suffer from Stockholm Syndrome?

The thing is, had a white dude, with a fro and goatee, done the same thing, it probably would have been brushed off as eccentric behavior

Uh - dude, Richard Reid (white dude, bearded, but no fro) was jumped on by passengers and later was arrested in December 2001 for trying to light his shoe.

The only thing white about Richard Reid was his name. KXB your facts are as reliable as your logic is sound.

"Didn't you know that I suffer from Stockholm Syndrome?"

Really my dear? What is it that endears a genteel lady like yourself to the natives? I hope you lead them to enlightenment like Annie Besant and others before you.

Slightly off topic, there was an interesting program on Channel 13 in New York yesterday about the troubles faced by the Sikh community in New York post 9/11, clip here and rerun on August 29th.

While Reid is half-Jamaican, I doubt that was obvious to anyone sitting next to him

And let's not forget about this Iraqi (haven't they suffered enough) brother trying to get on a plane at JFK:

"How come you are asking me to change my t-shirt? Isn't this my constitutional right to wear it? I am ready to change it if you tell me why I should. Do you have an order against Arabic t-shirts? Is there such a law against Arabic script?" so inspector Harris answered "you can't wear a t-shirt with Arabic script and come to an airport. It is like wearing a t-shirt that reads "I am a robber" and going to a bank".

Unbelievable. Get the full story here.

KXB.

Nice post. Ironically, Indians from India have been more understanding about the whole affair. See this and this. I don't think we should get all defensive and treat this as a racial thing. As you have speculated, other Indians must've complained. See this pic of other passengers in the plane. DNA India confirms: "According to officials of the Dutch justice ministry, the 12 Mumbai-born Indians had not done anything seriously wrong but added their behaviour and exchange of mobile phones had aroused suspicion - a fact confirmed by fellow passengers."They were moving about and talking loudly. They were exchanging cell phones and laptops all that give rise to suspicion," said Kiran Dalal, a passenger of the Northwest Airlines flight who arrived in Mumbai on Thursday night. "Some passengers were frightened by their behaviour," she added."

The Mumbai Mirror article has this gem of a sentence by a relative of one of the 12. "All 12 have known each other for long, so they might have been making mischief on the flight, but that wasn't reason enough to pick them up," Kolsawala said.
Lubna Kolsawala, 25[..]" and in a separate article: "Abdul Aziz, father of the young Suhail Abdul Nijani, 21, who recently entered into the family owned garment business and is the youngest of the 12 detained, said, "He is very playful by nature and must have indulged in some innocent prank which must not have gone down well with authorities. In the wake of the bomb blasts even the rustling of a paper is viewed suspiciously."

KXB
I have proved my point about your facts being as shaky as your logic. I really don't see the need to debate you on the "white appearance" of Mr Reid.
I rest my case.

Really my dear? What is it that endears a genteel lady like yourself to the natives? I hope you lead them to enlightenment like Annie Besant and others before you.

KXB
I have proved my point about your facts being as shaky as your logic. I really don't see the need to debate you on the "white appearance" of Mr Reid.
I rest my case.

Cauvery made the point that if were a white guy engaging in the same behavior, he would not arouse the same position. I simply pointed out that the same month and year he was experiencing glares over Malaysia, Reid was getting jumped on and injected with sedatives over the Atlantic. And before the other passengers did this, I doubt they determined Reid's ethnic makeup to determine what level of force they should use in subduing him.

white authorities should leave minorities 100% alone until the next 9/11 at which point it was 100% the authorities fault for not catching the warning signs.

Now I know some commenters will point out that so long as groups of young Middle Eastern men have the market on airborne mass murder cornered, there is some rationale behind profiling; but perhaps we can all agree that botched, panic-driven and vigilante-led profiling is, like, a general bummer.

Along with being a total bummer, I think it also deadens our instincts. I am a firm believer of trusting-your-gut. But you can't be clogging that stuff with prejudices, because then all you accomplish is being afraid all the time. We begin to look for middle-eastern men, instead of keeping an eye out for genuinely odd behavior.

Hasn't history and experience taught us by now that terrorists ALWAYS sit apart from from each other in order to avoid arousing suspicion? But what does it matter when people feel so afwaid?

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. Read a few posts in this thread where this was discussed. Terrorists like to fly under the radar and won't do anything to garner attention until they act.

Most people, that includes browns, whites, whoever, don't know this. Any kind of abberational behavior sets of insecurities. It isn't out of blantant racism as much as simply being insecure and misinformed. So, anything that I can do to avoid being spotlighted upon, I will. That doesn't mean I'm gonna bleach my skin or scrub off my browness, become white, and put on a NASCAR cap. It simply means I'll be tactful and mindful of my surroundings and ensure I flow through the system.

Being hysterical when flying is the worst thing anyone can do. Being defensive and hysterical only adds to the potent mixture.

A quote from one of my favorite books:

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

Yes, I am an uber geek. I've got fears, others do, and fundamentally its all about self preservation. I've got a long way to go in learning and self discipline as to most of us. Airports is one place where such discipline would come in handy as it is a focal point of different people, security, attacks, etc.

sonia: Well said. Malcolm Gladwell would agree!

Though this incident turned out to be a false alarm, it is now easy to criticise the authorities for overreacting. Don't forget the James Woods incident...

Actor James Woods observed and reported four hijackers making a trial run on an airline flight before the September 11 terrorist attacks on America.

Actor James Woods was so shaken by a flight he took from Boston to Los Angeles about a month before the attacks that he told an attendant and authorities of his suspicions when he landed. Woods was in first-class and the only other passengers in the section were four men who appeared to be Middle Eastern in origin.

During the entire six-hour flight, Woods noticed the men neither ate nor drank. They talked to each other in whispers and did not read or sleep. On Sept. 12, Woods called the FBI to tell investigators about his experience. He was interviewed by agents on Sept. 13. Woods's spokesman told Reuters the actor thought it ''prudent not to comment on this and let the FBI continue to do their job, which they seem to be doing superbly right now.''

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/woods.htm

Nice post. Ironically, Indians from India have been more understanding about the whole affair.

This is what I was saying early on - that since Indians experience terrorism more frequently than Westerners do(not just jihadist, but Naxalite and various seccessionist movements as well), they understand sometimes there is a mistake made. Of course, mistakes by Indian authorities (such as those "police encounters") are often irreversible. Pakistani human rights activist Asma Jehangir had her New Delhi hotel room searched by police, for which PM Singh later apologized. So, here we had brown on brown suspicion. It ain't just a white thing.

James Woods is a genius (quite literally). Most of the airport-wallahs are not. And Sonia, your point is excellently observed and expressed. Don't clog up your instincts with your prejudices. Essactly.

But damn, there's a lot of hysterical self-hating macacas up in this joint. "I'll take of my shorts, I'll spread my buttcheeks, I'll do anything you want as long as you don't humiliate me." Shoot. Nobody needs to humiliate you when you're doing a fine job by yourself.

Bredren and sistren, stand up for your rights!

More on the story:"Among others on board the ill-fated flight was Central Industrial Security Force Deputy Commandant (Retd) Umesh Prasad Behera.

Behera says the air marshals did what they ought to have done. The group of 12 passengers was not heeding the instructions of the stewardesses, who had asked them to switch off their mobile phones and to remain seated. As their pleas fell on deaf ears, the stewardesses had to alert the air marshal, Behera said.

"As an educated passenger I had asked them not to use the lavatory while the plane was taking off, but they did not listen," he said.

The air marshal tactfully used sign language to call out the erring passengers so as not to create panic among the other 148 passengers on board the aircraft, he added. "

On the other hand, there is no dearth of genuine idiots even in the US. Heh :-)

But damn, there's a lot of hysterical self-hating macacas up in this joint. "I'll take of my shorts, I'll spread my buttcheeks, I'll do anything you want as long as you don't humiliate me." Shoot. Nobody needs to humiliate you when you're doing a fine job by yourself.

So, not using your cellphones in-flight is the same as getting a hand up your butt? Again, everyone else heeded instructions, no phones and no getting up and around - these 12 did not. The rest of the plane was not asked to spread their buttcheeks.

Bredren and sistren, stand up for your rights!

What rights would those be - the ones conferred by the Dutch government, the Indian government,or the IATA? Or are we extending the US Constitution overseas now?

But damn, there's a lot of hysterical self-hating macacas up in this joint. "I'll take of my shorts, I'll spread my buttcheeks, I'll do anything you want as long as you don't humiliate me." Shoot. Nobody needs to humiliate you when you're doing a fine job by yourself.

Enough alerady with 'macaca', unless you want the label to stick for a long time to come.

Enough alerady with 'macaca', unless you want the label to stick for a long time to come.

Agreed - it's as stupid as black folks calling each other nigger. Just because that redneck (by way of sunny southern California) Allen coined it, I don't want to have to see it used everyday, even in jest.

Iknow this is wrong, but if I was on a plane and heard a group of Muslims praying on it, I would kind of freak out. My thought process would go something like this

1. Hmmmm, why are these people all reciting somethine in Arabic.
2. Ohhhhhh shi#, I think I heard the phrase Allah Akbar.
3. If anyone makes any sudden movements I'm going to go buck wild.
4. I better not go buck wild because I would attack the praying people and the white people would attack me because I look just like them.
5. Ohh well, I dont think it would even hurt if the plane went down.

And to make it clear, if I heard anyone praying on a plane, no matter what religion, it would freak me out.

It could be the Dhali Lama and I would tell him to keep it down your freaking me out.

Just wondering if a group of blue-eyed, blond frat boys returning from a sex romp in Amsterdam would have "aroused suspicion" even if they did the same things?

When this story had just broken... and all I'd heard was "flight out of Amsterdam" and "12(?!) passengers going nuts"... my first thought was "Somebody must have said the wrong thing bout the wrong soccer team"...

Please tell me honestly - Wouldn't it be better, if the authorirites issued different colored passports/ids to Muslims.
Heck, shouldn't they ask passengers to declare their religion when gong through security checks.

p.s. and tad unrelated American embassy officios, at least in Delhi, have started asking young visa applicant their religion. However, in most cases this doesn't preclude anyone from being approved.

Please tell me honestly - Wouldn't it be better, if the authorirites issued different colored passports/ids to Muslims.

Lawd have mercy. They're crawling out of the woodwork today.

Lots of stuff is crawling out of the woodwork today.

This is turning into to some kind of fad...

Somethin amiss from the 12 angry Indian men story. Why are passing around their cellphones? Are ALL of them playing at the same time? Did the airlines make some kind of weak story and trying to get away with it? Why are ALL of them muslim men? Were they all related to each other, or was it just a good old fun trip organized by muslim youth club in India to Amsterdam.

More importantly, did they any fun in Amsterdam? ;-)

Sorry to cut and paste this article but it summarizes what some have said on this post - our Indian brothers need to learn some basic flying manners. It was wrong for Dutch authorities to detain them for as many hours as they did but I hope this teaches people a lesson about flying etiquette and following instructions.

From TOI - 'Indians are unruly fliers'

MUMBAI: While the debate rages on whether the 12 Indian detained by the Dutch police on Wednesday were victims of racial profiling, flight attendants feel Indian passengers habitually ignore instructions of the cabin crew while on board.

An Indian Airlines attendant who flies on the Kolkata-Bangkok sector says, "These so-called educated passengers do not switch off their cell phones when they are asked to do so, and still make calls when the plane is ready for take off or is landing. Before the plane halts, they jump up from their seats and open the baggage. They ignore the 'seat belt on' signs. It's really tiring to attend to such passengers."

Referring to the North West Airlines flight in which the Indian passengers apparently refused to follow instructions of the crew, the attendant said, "If we were to follow such strict rules in India, then every flight would have to make emergency landing."

Unlike the NorthWest Airlines crew, emergency landings are frowned upon in India. The duty of the cabin crew to keep an eagle eye on passenger's behaviour is almost taken for granted.

Explaining the predicament, an Airhostess says, "Even if we are forced to enforce the rules because of such passengers, we are not supposed to leave our seats until we are instructed by the captain.”

According to cabin crews, first-time flyers and couriers are the ones who are mostly to blame. “As these passengers fly frequently, they are often upgraded to the better section under the frequent-flyer programme. They spend the duration of the flight moving up and down the plane to be with colleagues in the Economy Class which causes a lot of confusion inside the aircraft,” feels one of the cabin crews.

Crew members also complain about passengers behaving badly after a couple of drinks on sectors like Bangkok, which have a free-bar service.

An NRI who travelled by North West from Amsterdam to Mumbai earlier this year, said though he thought the behaviour of the flight crew in this week's incident "smacked of racial discrimination", Indian passengers often behaved inappropriately.

He recalled an earlier flight in which on landing at the Mumbai airport, even before the 'seat belt on' sign was put up, most Indian passengers had unbuckled their belts and sprung from their seats. "Their cell phones had begun to ring when they were supposed to keep them switched off. Only after the airhostess sternly told them that no one would be allowed to get down did they obey her instructions."

In stark contrast, an airhostess who flies in the international sector, says, “Foreigners and NRIs are totally different in international airways. They even ask for permission to listen to music on their personal electronic devices. In fact, we might be losing some good travellers. We have come across passengers who have appreciated our services but have told us they would never to fly our airline because of unruly co-passengers who are a nuisance."

Also, due to intense competition, airlines often have to put up with badly behaved passengers. An airline pilot can offload an unruly passenger, but he refrains from doing so because a rival pilot may not take similar action.

However, say flight attendants, if all airlines begin to take strict action against disobedient passengers, it would go a long way in creating better flying conditions. They suggest the Ministry of Civil Aviation and the Directorate General of Civil Aviation should consider such a proposal.

>>Why are ALL of them muslim men? Were they all related to each other, or was it just a good old fun trip >>organized by muslim youth club in India to Amsterdam.

apparently they were part of a business delegation attending a trade show in the carribean. They were from the same community in bombay

How many of you have seen a live antaskhari session in Flight?

How many of you have seen a live antaskhari session in Flight?

I understand that victim status is a powerful unifier, but I really hope most Americans of Indian descent aren't as happy to play the victim as some of the people on this thread. America really doesn't need to be fractured any more along ethnic victimhood lines, it's already at the breaking point. Buck up, everyone. Thanks.

Antakshari! See this is the kind of shit that drives me nuts in India (and Europe). If a bunch of people decide to have a good time, then they don't care about the people who do not want to participate and they will get really noisy. Whether it's the antakshari crowd, or the Sabari Mala crowd on a train, or just a large family...if the numbers are big enough, that's license to be unruly.

This is much rarer here, but it does happen. Last night, I was on a train that passed through Anaheim and a bunch of Angels and Red Sox fans came on board headed for San Diego. They started chugging beers and generally making a lot of noise, every now and then stomping so hard that the compartment shook. And this was from 10pm to midnight! Most people had been trying to sleep until that point. Every single one of the fans was white. If that had been a bunch of desis returning for a wedding or bhangra night, they would have been reported for suspicious activity for just an tenth of that noise and the train would probably have been met by cops at the next station where they would be led off in handcuffs.

Bryant,

Welcome to the Mutiny, and thanks for your message for those desis who might be citizens of a "moderately corrupt republic" (in Czeslaw Milosz’s words), i.e., USA (I am assuming you were using America to refer to USA). That said, I would like to know which of the opinions expressed here have taken the tone of victim-hood, and how?

Further, FYI, the Mutiny from what I understand of it, and have seen so far, attracts a global audience, and covers desi-centric topics which are global in scope. So bracketing the pro and con opinions here by nationality may not work that well, as they may have been written by "aliens" etc.

How many of you have seen a live antaskhari session in Flight?

I havent seen one (and I am FOB). But what I have seen once in Air India flight to India (my first and last) people smoking in the plane inspite of warnings written on the plane and inspite of the message from the Caption and the crew.

This utter lack of respect for the rule of law is unacceptable to me while I am flying. Thats why I stopped flying Air India. (Well, the fact that their planes are dirty and its impossible to go to the rest room because it smells so bad, could be equally important reasons :-) )

I joked with my friend Amit that when next he flies to...well...anywhere, I'm going to get him some foundation and we'll white him up so he can sit on the plane with less hassle, that and introduce himself as Tim Jones from Witchita. Poor guy owns a leather coat, and plays video games on his cellphone while flying, so he'll most certainly get a one-way ticket to Gitmo. All the more so since he's a huge metal fan and odds are the day he flies he'll be listening to "Seek and Destroy" by Metallica or "Symphony of Destruction" by Megadeth.

Desidawg:

>>The only thing white about Richard Reid was his name.>>

Hey if blacks can be "brownz", then why cant brown mullatos be white? :)

Reid is half-white, half jamiacan. With a normal hairdo he would look "whiter" than your average Bollywood lotharios, who in turn are substantially "whiter" than your average indian "brownz".

Hey, I'm feeling ignored! Why hasn't anybody responded to my earlier question about whether Indians indeed speak louder than Westerners, as claimed by the brother of one of the arrested guys on this flight? Please respond ASAP and help dispel my fog of doubt and dismay :-)

Reid is half-white, half jamiacan. With a normal hairdo he would look "whiter" than your average Bollywood lotharios, who in turn are substantially "whiter" than your average indian "brownz".

the average white and jamaican would be insulted, offended even, by comparison with a indian from "bollywood."

Oh no, this is just sad! We have a young undergrad family friend who recites her prayers often in the car.

Sahara I guess. Even the air-hostess sang a couple of songs!

Sahara airlines, "emotionally yours"

I've always thought TWA meant third world Assassin?
see:- http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TWA

Indians somehow loose their manners especially on their way back to home and they do love their cheap duty-free whiskies. I guess when it comes to flying ba