August 28, 2006
Are We American?
I am often surprised at the propensity of hyphenated identity discussions that we have here at Sepia Mutiny. If you read this blog long enough, it often feels like the topics in the comments are repetitive, and in some ways it does feel like beating a dead horse. But on the flip side, the fact that we still have so many people participating in such a heated discussion on race, being South Asian, and manuevering through the complexities of this uniquely diasporic culture simply proves the need to have this safe space online to have these relatively anonymous discussions that we wouldn't be able to have elsewhere.
In yesterday's Washington Post, John Thatamanil talked about the juxtaposition of being South Asian American in this country, and the lack of ever fully being American.
The Allen incident offers evidence that America is not now or likely to ever be a color-blind country. How are South Asians to live with this truth? Resignation is not the answer. Vigorous political participation is. My youthful intuition that what makes me as American as any Mayflower descendant is citizenship -- not race or ethnicity -- was only partly on the mark. The piece of paper that validates our identities as American citizens can do only so much if we do little to struggle for recognition.There is also a second lesson to be learned from this incident. South Asian political engagement cannot be driven solely by the private interests of a single racial or ethnic group. America's obsession with color has a long history that South Asians forget at their peril. Indian Americans and other affluent immigrant groups would do well to remember the civil rights struggles of African Americans and others without whom a racially inclusive American nation would have been impossible. The Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965, which opened the door to people from the Eastern Hemisphere, must be recognized as the fruit of a larger struggle to expand the meaning of the term "American," a struggle fought on our behalf before our arrival. [link]
The idea of what it means to be an American, through a South Asian lens is something I probably spend way too much time thinking about- if only because I am constantly challenging myself on the importance of voting and what exactly voting means in the scope of creating a South Asian American political voice. Are citizenship and voting merely parts of a false border created to divide our community? Are we aspiring to honorary whiteness as Thatamanil suggests? Is it true that we'll never truly be American?
Personally, I wouldn't be able to do the work that I do to make our community politically engaged if I believed that it is impossible to overcome these barriers. In my world, I've redefined what it means to be American to include my hyphenated experience and I see the work that I do as to define my 'American experience' as on par with the civil rights that we as human beings deserve. For myself, I've redefined what it means to be a 'patriot', a 'revolutionary', and 'political' to include my experiences as a South Asian American and how I perceive that identity needs to be treated. With Macaca-gate still thriving and Traveling While Asian causing more problems then ever, I challenge everyone now to make some redefinitions of their own. And of course, I challenge everyone to go against the status quo and to also go register to vote 
.
taz on August 28, 2006 05:25 PM in · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Great post, Taz. :)
Well - to be literal - as Bill said, "No!. :-)
But... I will answer your question with an excerpt from Obasan.
Q.E.D.
But does it apply across the border?
Well, I'm registered to vote, but I doubt you'd like the way this Indian American votes :)
I'm sorry, but a certain level of brown 'woe is me' navel-gazing drives me, well, batty.
Yeah, I'm American. It's simply what and who I am. Aspiring for whiteness! Feh. What nonsense. Those of us who grew up in the States have every right to decide how much or how little of our parent's culture we want in our own lives. I am a citizen of this country. Pray tell, how does this citizenship create a border for me? I'm fine with the border. It's just fine by me.
You know, the father's dictum in that Washington Post article was terrible. What a terrible thing to say to a young man. My parent's never would have said that to me. Oh, don't get me wrong, they understood plenty about predjudice, but what they did do was never create a predjudice in me of other Americans just because they were of the majority.
Well, as usual, there are a million errors in my writing. Sigh. I never learn to preview, do I?
I'm feeling particularly dense today. I don't quite understand what you mean by a "border ... to divide our community" in this context.
Thats a good post. I just want point out that all the 2nd/3rd or even 10th generation German/Italian/Irish Americans, point out that they are Irish or Italian ten times a day. They are proud of who they are. And I dont think they are getting accepted as Americans just because they are white. Well maybe a little. But also they are proud of their heritage. And some of the 2nd generation Indian Americans go out of the way to prove they dont have anything do with being an American of Indian descent. And to prove that they talk only about the bad things in India. And it surely backfires on them. Mainly because all white people equate half of themselves to their heritage(Irish/Italian), and if you bad mouth your own heritage, i don't think they would have a nice opinion(not that it matters). So they will think of India when they talk to you, and you cannot prevent that.
Disclaimer: I dont want to make all the 2nd gens angry here. I said some not all.
don't worry MD, i never heard of no preview either :)
one thing, i've mentioned this before. when i wuz a kid i'd get "where are you really from every week." as i got older, this happens less and less. often it is from an older individual, and often that individual gets really embarrassed that they just asked the question that they asked in that manner. to some of our fellow americans we will always be 'macacas.' to some we have never been 'macacas.' to some we are no longer 'macacas.' the key is to increase the % of the last group. some of it is going to come naturally as the younger generation of americans who are used to browns without accents grows up.
I just want point out that all the 2nd/3rd or even 10th generation German/Italian/Irish Americans, point out that they are Irish or Italian ten times a day.
this isn't true. there are studies which show that people who are descended from immigrants of the 'great migration' of the 1840s from ireland are more likely to be protestant now than catholic. the majority of german, irish and even a large % of italian americans, have melted into the 'mainstream.' there are local concentrations, south boston, milwaukee, long island, etc. these are taken to be typical, but they are simply remnants which we identify as normative because they are distinctive.
The fathers advice of "Don't ever believe you are American" holds more weight than is acknowledged in social circles. Although I would have expanded on it to say, "Don't ever believe you are American, unless the people who defined the term say you are"
Thanks for a great post Taz. What was that some folks were saying about 'eastern' history being separate from 'western' history and how what happened all those years back doesn't affect Indians because only the small local history of our village affects us?? etc etc. Beautiful answer Taz. Right on. Everything affects everybody--so we might as well get wise and join the struggle.
I never got into this whole patriot way of thinking. If I make alot of money and vote then what? My reward is being labeled an patriotic American? What would being seen as a true patriotic American in the eyes of others ever do for me? Nothing! The only way to live like an American is to do everything you can to take advantage of capitalism, where the only color that matters is green. Sure there might be a few hicks here and there that might see a South Asian as a terrorist, but so what? Am I supposed to enter apple pie eating contests and put a God bless America bumper sticker on the back of my Ford F-150 pick up truck just to please people who dont matter at all? There is no way in hell a Sikh, for instance, would ever be considered a "true American" and in the big picture that doesnt matter at all.
There is no way in hell a Sikh, for instance, would ever be considered a "true American" and in the big picture that doesnt matter at all.
just like "rajiv" will never be an american name. where have we heard that before???
About half-way through Thatamanil's drivel, I thought to myself "Betcha this guy is a professinal academic." Sure enough - teaches at Vanderbilt. Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of academics who can right in a straight-forward manner, this dude just isn't one of them. Using the foolish tactic of starting off with an anecdote is bad enough - a number of us recall that schmuck Pius Kamau in 2004 wrote a vicious column on Indian doctors, based not on his own interactions with those doctors, but childhood rumors her heard growing up in Africa.
Thatamanil, while not as mean-spirited, clearly doubts the ability of whites to see beyond color (has he read an Indian matrimonial ad?), although he keeps citing the Allen reference over and over. I was disgusted with his comments too, but I doubt that this outrage would motivate the Democrats if this were not an election year.
TYPO - who can write in a straight-forward manner
Okay, to make my point more clearly this time.
I've struggled (still struggling) these past 37 years in this country, to be authentically myself. I suppose I sort of drank the individualism kool-aid they gave out in high school. I have my own personal history and I dislike tying myself to some sort of collective group or political consciousness just because my parents are from India or I have a certain shade of skin. I also dislike a certain type of Indian immigrant who thinks I (or people like me) look down on my heritage because I don't eat Indian food every day or whatever. That's just an example - I don't mean it literally, so take it easy, okay. It's my life, not yours! And if some racist doesn't accept me, well, as long as they are not physically threatening to me, I don't care what they think of me. I just don't.
I have my own ideas about the world, as a woman, as physician, as a child of Indian parents and an American. I was a year old when I came to this country. This is the land of my childhood and it's been good to me. Does that mean I wouldn't or couldn't have had a good life back in India? Of course not (although, the avonex for my multiple sclerosis, how hard is that to get in India, Indian peeps reading?). Still, I feel that I am uniquely myself and that identity involves being an American. I am fully that. And if some racist person doesn't see it, there are plenty of non-racists who do, and they matter more to me.
Also, I agree with #6 Milind. I'm confused by that particular sentence, too.....
Apology if this sounds wonky. But since the start of this nation voting was synonymous with being white landowning male. We as desis, got the right to vote after the Luce Cellar Act, the year before India's independence. Technically, we got the right to naturalize as citizens. So voting can be perceived as a privelege, as well ass being a citizen is a privelege. This citizenship "privelege" in the US has also served to create a border- the us 'priveleged citizens' versus them 'non-citizen, often people of color, always immigrant' - in the desi community, it is the privelege of the ABD verses the FOBs in this country. that's the question though, how defined is that border? Is it really there? I know that I'm personally conscious of it when registering people to vote, because half time the non-native desis will say, "I'm not a citizen" and they'll walk away- but just because they are not a citizen and not able to vote, does not mean that they can not be politically engaged in the "brotherhood" definition of what a citizen is. I feel that by asking people to vote, and them walking away, I am otherizing them, making them not feel included in 'what it means to be American.'And thus the border.
Anyways, don't know if that explained it- I'm still learning academia talk ;-)
KXB - perfect way to put it. He does doubt the ability of whites to see beyond color. And yet, he's married to one? Some people are so hung up on color and they ain't all politicians in Virginia......
I'm still learning academia talk
i think you are going in the wrong directing girl.... :)
Thanks for the explanation taz :)
And if some racist doesn't accept me, well, as long as they are not physically threatening to me, I don't care what they think of me. I just don't.
I would imagine that you dont care because you dont believe that the racists are large enough in number.
He does doubt the ability of whites to see beyond color. And yet, he's married to one?
Both are not mutually exclusive unless he is insinuating that no white can see beyond color.
I kind of have to agree with this sentiment. Whether I associate myself with the "indian," the "american," or the "hyphen" doesn't really matter to me so long as I work my way through the world in such a way that, I hope, carries some integrity, some honesty, and some generosity. I am very proud of my heritage, of my unpronouncable name, and the thick american accent I have when I speak Tamil. I find my position in the world to be quite liberating because I can raise my very long middle finger to just about anything I find objectionable. I feel comfortable doing so because I can easily step outside the Indian or American fish bowl and see it as an "outsider." Likewise, I'm free to embrace that which I adore of each culture because I am indian enough, and american enough, to have a more than passing understanding of the social morays that led to those great things. In short, if neither side accepts me, who cares? I've made it this far without any real problems and, absent something truly unexpected (and therefore, unpredictable), I don't see why my personal growth should be hindered in the slightest.
My prayers for everyone is that instead of identifying as immigrants or South Asians or any kind of community, if we could put equal effort in identifying as human being with human qualities to share and celebrate our life. I am very sure that all other identities will melt away. I am also sure that no one gets credit or reward for beging or acting as human. But I can assure that the reward dosen't come from outside( from people and material) it will come from within us. It will come from a satisfied soul and happy mind.
The quality of life is not if we have food or shelter... it is the quality of heart that we carry in us. Success is in having the courage to face life and not in embracing the easy paths or in achieving our highest potential.
Thatamanil, while not as mean-spirited, clearly doubts the ability of whites to see beyond color (has he read an Indian matrimonial ad?)
That both Indians and Americans have color issues leads one to believe that colorism, or at least judging people according to literally superficial categories, may be a universal phenomenon.
Right brownz seem to view left-of-center brownz as victimologists with a benighted view of the majority, who are indeed able to transcend colorism/racism in meaningful ways. And there have been no pogroms.
Left brownz view right brownz as naive idealists who buy the talk of individualism, when their private realities, and indeed human history, tell them a different story.
Al Mujahid for the debauch, my friend! Define racist and then we can talk numbers....when I say I don't care what I really mean is that I'm not going to think I'm less of an American because of some dummies. As for the second point, well, it's so annoying! Oh, woe is me, woe is me! He does doubt the ability of whites 'en masse'. At least, that's what I got out of the article, but maybe I'm reading him wrong. Hard core racists are small, if vicious and disgusting and all things vile, in number, I believe. I'm not willing to include the more minor transgressions in that group which means that the world I see is far more benevolent. I mean, the minor transgressions occur from white to brown, brown to white, brown to brown. Plus, I'm a woman and when you navigate the world as a woman, well, believe it or not, the brown-ness doesn't seem as much of a big deal as the woman-ness. Get what I'm saying, boys?
Define racist and then we can talk numbers
you go girl!!!
Define racist and then we can talk numbers....when I say I don't care what I really mean is that I'm not going to think I'm less of an American because of some dummies. As for the second point, well, it's so annoying! Oh, woe is me, woe is me! He does doubt the ability of whites 'en masse'. At least, that's what I got out of the article, but maybe I'm reading him wrong. Hard core racists are small, if vicious and disgusting and all things vile, in number, I believe. I'm not willing to include the more minor transgressions in that group which means that the world I see is far more benevolent
I guess I was pointing out the fact that the reason most people dont care about racists (including me) is that we dont believe that the hard-core racists (as you say) are in the majority. If they were, then it would become hard to ignore them and you wont be saying things like these 'And if some racist doesn't accept me, well, as long as they are not physically threatening to me, I don't care what they think of me. I just don't.
I guess I was pointing out the fact that the reason most people dont care about racists (including me) is that we dont believe that the hard-core racists (as you say) are in the majority.
4/10 Americans believe that Muslims should carry id cards - according to a Gallup Poll, not a VDARE poll :) Even if not, 'deeply felt' as Razib contends, its still something that should raise concerns.
Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but it seems like you're trivializing the issues of racism and denying certain people "American-ness" to individual people, or "hicks" just "thinking." And the other option is "physical threatening" I think racism doesn't only exist in these two forms, there's infact a wide spectrum in between.
I believe, the real issue is not whether we consider ourselves "American" its whether the people who defined the term expand its definition to include us. This means, I can eat all the INdian food I want, I can talk about vedanta all I want, I can wear a baseball cap, I can speak with an "American" accent. The issue is, are we treated differently not necessarily in the eyes of the law, but in the eyes of public majority opinion.
When Kalpana Chowla exploded with the other astronauts, the President did her the indignity of butchering her name multiple times, yet an American flag stood in her place, as she had naturalized to join the NASA space program. If she was "American" as many of my Indian American brethren claimed, how could her name be mangled so conspicuously?
The question to ask is not "Are we American?", it's "Are American's we?"
In the end acknowledging your background, identifying with your Indian compatriots doesn't matter 'cos if you're female you're still on your own.
A qualification fueled by today's very headlines in a manner far more tangible and sobering than any words that have passed through George Allen's lips. This news item is flying beneath the radar today, but it's not even remotely a trivial concern -- from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
If she was "American" as many of my Indian American brethren claimed, how could her name be mangled so conspicuously?
dude, talk about trivialing. so a not-too-bright politican can't pronounce a uncommon name. christine lahti called christian laettner "christine laettner" multiple times at the ESPYs in the early 90s. i'm sure he felt less an american :)
Desis or whatever you want to call the South Asian population will never be full-fledged Americans. On the surface there might be talks of multiculturism and assimilation but such notions are only wishful thinking. That is why you get incidents like Macaca and the Dutch airplane incident. The outward appearance (i.e. brown skin) will stop any "real" assimilation from happening. It doesn't matter if you change your name from Harpreet to Harry or if you hold weekly barbeque parties. Stereotypes, inherent prejudices, and a lack of knowledge about "desi" culture will mean that we will remain on the fringes of society. This is only more true after 9/11. Of course, this is nothing new. Look what happen to the Japanese-Americans during WWII....sure Americans speak of "tolerance" but when the time comes to walk the walk all that goes down the drain. So, today if you are brown skinned, board an international flight and play catch with your fellow desi passengers with cell-phones you can look forward to a few days in jail.
pied piper,
under the radar? we were getting to it- I can only post so often in a day... ;-)
When Kalpana Chowla exploded with the other astronauts, the President did her the indignity of butchering her name multiple times, yet an American flag stood in her place, as she had naturalized to join the NASA space program. If she was "American" as many of my Indian American brethren claimed, how could her name be mangled so conspicuously?
Bush's poor command of the English language is proof positive that Chawla was not considered an American? I've had Indians butcher my name, does that mean I am not of Indian heritage?
fringes of the society??? Isnt that a bit extreme??? The last time I checked IAs were the richest ethnic community in the US. They are represented at top from Technology to Academia to Law to Business.
The browning of the US has already started. CA state will soon Hispanics as a majority. Florida (Southern) is already preety brown.
I'm not trivializing the issue of racism. Far from it. I believe those that conflate physical violence and denial of jobs or voting rights, for example, with schoolyard taunting or mis-speaking a name, for another example, are trivializing racism.
Money matters: when priviledged desis with good incomes and loving families take up the mantle of the dispossessed and the down-trodden, as if that particular experience of racism requires the same degree of empathy as a poor desi or a poor white, well, I call foul. Maybe empathy isn't the right word. I dunno how to put it exactly. Allen was being a complete ass, but all the attention 'poor' Sidarth is getting? Huh? Sidarth has all the tools in the world to deal with the Allens of the world. I don't want to blow off what Allen did, and I certainly don't like it and would not vote for him. But really, by saying the brown navel gazers bother me, I'm not saying that racism isn't a problem and isn't important. I'm saying money matters, class matters, family matters, and this whole "I will never be an American" shtick is on some level self-pitying and self-defeating.
What it is to be an American changes all the time in terms of foods, clothes, ethnicity. The core is what matters most. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.....citizenship. Duties as well as rights. That's all I'm saying.
Maybe you can explain how your example relates to the leader of a country failing to learn and execute the correct pronounciation of a fallen member of the government space program, which is extremely selective and (at least at one point) the hallmark of the entire country's scientific status in the world?
Yes. Mispronouncing a name is not a big thing to get in a twist over. but if it's so small and meaningless, why not take the extra step to pronounce it correctly? It's an example that shows some people are more American than others.
I challenge everyone to go against the status quo and to also go register to vote.
What we consume has a much bigger effect on the status quo than how often we vote or who we vote for.
I'm sorry, but just because some people ignore a problem doesn't mean that a problem doesn't exist. That's analogous to saying that since 90% of women in India are happy to stay at home, we should ignore sexual discrimination in India. Something that is wrong is wrong, irrespective of how many people acknowledge it.
There is a certain level of "othering" of Indian culture in America. Although, that is not as bad as discrimination that African-Americans have faced, we should be working towards gaining more acceptance of our identities.
Yes. Mispronouncing a name is not a big thing to get in a twist over. but if it's so small and meaningless, why not take the extra step to pronounce it correctly? It's an example that shows some people are more American than others.
people don't "learn" how to pronounce the name "tom." they don't learn how to spell it. they are simply so familiar with it that it is a reflex. so part of the issue is that brown names just aren't familiar enough so that their reflexive spelling & pronounciation is reflexive. e.g., my name, "razib" is as simple as can be, compared to say, "alexander." but the latter is easier for people to handle cuz they've seen it multiple times. i'm saying-there are far more prosaic answers to some of these issues that societal racism.
Fei,
If life in any country is simply, "As it was, so it shall forever be.", then India will not move beyond caste, Arabs will never learn to govern themselves without strongmen, Europeans are just waiting to round up Jews, and Africans will never form modern nation-states. Unless you believe America is particularly incapable of change.
Eddie Murphy from Delirious:
Racism is still out there, but we've come a long motherfucking way. I mean, white people don't even call black people nigger no more - especially when there's niggers around, so I guess I wouldn't know. Back in the 50's, white folks would say, "Nigger" and black folks would just have to go, "Uh-huh."
taz --
not under YOUR radar -- under the mainstream media's! :)
peace
pp
I have actually had a harder time asserting my "American-ness" to other brown folk - esp. the first-gen's. I know a few SM'ers posted saying that the Amreekan Desis they know put down India, and all that. In my family, and their social circles, everyone still uses "American" as an exchangeable term for "White".
"There was this American girl on that bhangra team..." Or, "These kids these days just are acting soooo American", or something. I've lost count of the times I've repeated the lines "I'm American - you're American. Look at your goddamn passport." Most of the time when they use the term American, it's to refer to specifically a white person. Not black, latin, anything else - not someone simply exhibiting stereotypically "western" behavior. I've seen it on a number of occasions. If they mean black, they'll say black. If they mean white, they'll say American.
And these same people love boasting in public about how American they are. I found it ridiculous how, post 9/11, all the same people who would talk smack about the kids acting "too American" were the ones rocking huge American flags outside their houses or off their cars.
What does being the "richest ethnic community in the US" have to do with anything? Sure we are represented but that doesn't mean that we are assimilated, i.e. are "Americans". Both culturally and politically, we are still on the fringes of society. Ask yourself this, what do Americans think of Indians in general? How do they describe us? Words like Doctors, Software Engineers, Taxi Drivers, Bollywood are all labels and don't mean anything in the sense of being an "American". This might not mean anything, but recently I was asked if Indians (in India) ride elephants to work....and the guy was dead serious.
We might be a majority but that doesn't mean that we are "accepted". The views held in California of Mexicans should be indicative of this.
Speaking from experience, it sucks to have a hard-to-pronounce name, but I always give people a couple of chances, as long as they're nice about it. However, I do believe that Presidents and high school principals ought to practice such names before memorial services and graduations. You know, things that matter.
Immigrant limbo: having everyone else tell you what you are. Whatever. I pick American...with an Indian twist.
I saw this bumper sticker today, what does it mean?
DRINK YOUR BEER. THE KIDS IN INDIA ARE SOBER.
WTfreakingdeedlydo?
brown.
Ask yourself this, what do Americans think of Indians in general?
Hopefully a little better than what you think of Americans, in general. Weren't there a whole bunch of people in India who said an Italian-born Catholic cannot be a "real" Indian?
she was "American" as many of my Indian American brethren claimed, how could her name be mangled so conspicuously?
Kalpana Chawla's name mispronounced? Vhen? Vhere? :) I think the 'w' might throw some people off.
I have personally found that it can be hard to keep proper names that originate from a language that you are not familiar with right, or even consistent, and that it can sometimes be difficult to change accents midstream. Like, for instance, if I was talking about Xeni Jardin, after about five careful attempts to make sure the first name was right, I think I would lapse into 'Zenee', and maybe even Jardin with a J.
letz go back to brownland! whites r racist!
(after you ladies & gentlemen)
Taz :
My wife and I are very, very, lite skinned and very, bery proud Indian Americans of Kashmiri origin. We oft hear the, "you can't be indian" comment. That is despite our very Sanskrit names.
So, does that make us "white"? Or, is white a state of being, a way of life?
"people don't "learn" how to pronounce the name "tom." they don't learn how to spell it. they are simply so familiar with it that it is a reflex. so part of the issue is that brown names just aren't familiar enough so that their reflexive spelling & pronounciation is reflexive. e.g., my name, "razib" is as simple as can be, compared to say, "alexander." but the latter is easier for people to handle cuz they've seen it multiple times."
Technically speaking, we do "learn" spellings and pronounciations, we just aren't formally taught it. My point was, even though Kalpana name was unfamiliar, given the gravity (no pun intended) and national scope of the event, the president or one of his staff could have taken the extra step to ensure the pronounciation was correct. Just because western names don't need to be taught, doesn't mean unfamiliar names cannot be taught.
I for one am happy when someone asks me if they are pronouncing my name correctly, it implicitly shows they are beginning to accept it as an "American" name rather than writing it off as some nuisance they have to deal with because immigration laws weren't strict enough. But anyhow it's a small example, doesn't detract from my original point that us considering ourselves "American" really doesn't do much until the people who have ownership of the term basically "let us in"
When my generation was in its youth, our parents would hear about famines in India and China. Kids* were told to finish everything on their plates because kids in (insert famine-stricken area of the moment) were starving. It was a well-intentioned admonishment designed to instill gratitude for plenty. I guess some of those kids grew up to make that bumper sticker, without any knowledge of any other goings-on in India. It's only funny if you're ignorant, which as you know many Americans are.
*My parents didn't do this, because they didn't want us to develop eating disorders. Thanks, Mom and Dad!
The key difference is that discrimination of women is ingrained in the mindset of the people and is also instituionalized, while lunatic right-wingers are just that, a fringe. This isn't Germany in the 1930s.
Oh come on, guys, Bush mispronounces everything! Verbal skills are not his strong suit. I voted for him and even I cringe when he speaks.
You guys should see the discussion of this over at:
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/08/gaffe_underscor.php
Intense.
Oh come on, guys, Bush mispronounces everything! Verbal skills are not his strong suit.
True dat
raj,
amren is a white nationalist site. not an american one :)
Over here it's the same - folks constantly butcher my name and that of everyone who doesn't have a traditional Dutch name. Heck, even an Italian friend had to suffer. Especially since my name is spelled according to English grammatical rules. I know a Bengali couple, they gave their first daughter an Anglo nickname and their second one an uber-Scandinavian whiter-than-white name. Only her surname would betray her origins. Anyway digressing now, pronunciation is hardly a litmus test for assimilation(you can tell one someone's being intentionally insulting), and this is Bush we are talking about, the one who doesn't even have a proper command of the English language.
From raj's link. Take that brownz! :)
Allens words may have stung, but the economic disaster the Indian H-1Bs have brought to Americas computer programmers and engineers has been a DEATH sentence for the dreams of the lower middle class.
Get the Indians out of here and back to their subcontinent.
Posted by at 6:24 PM on August 25
Indians running for office is good news. If anyone deserves to be put out of work and replaced by Indian immigrants, its the pack of venal American politicians whove been letting them in.
Posted by Michael Scott at 6:38 PM on August 25
We have become a nation of crybabies. They better toughen up a bit cause things dont get easier as you get older. I think all the hoopla just pointed out a new word for many of us.
Posted by GetBackJack at 7:40 PM on August 25
Why are they so eager to reach out to Indians? Its certain that the Indians dont constitute a major number of voters, so whats the deal here? The Bush Administration would have much more success; the president would gain a larger amount of support, and his rating would go up if hed focus on the largest group of voters: The left-out, unrepresented white, Christian males.
And as for the Senators remarks: Who cares if he called some Indian macaca? I certainly dont; no, not in the least. If anything, it shows evidence that he isnt a race-panderer.
Posted by James Harrison at 8:09 PM on August 25
This article shows that it doesnt take long for hyphenated Americans to begin participating in the Liberals favorite sport: Forcing White men to apologize for words or actions that offend a beloved minority. White men must never forget that everyone, except themselves, must be treated with deep respect. If a White man violates this mandate, no apology can be too profuse or abject. Africans were pioneers in this great sport, and still the champs, but other groups are giving them stiff competition. These Indian hyphenates are showing that they too will be a force to be reckoned with.
To Raj:
The issue is not whether Indians are bad. (But I have to ask, why havent YOU joined the armed forces as would a Kansas farmboy would - seeing how youre here to embrace America?)
See, we have a civilization because we were willing to sacrifice for it. You werent. Why dont you build your own America in India?
You and your relatives are stealing infrastructure created by centuries of risk & sacrifice of my forebears. They built this country for their posterity.
There are illegitimate voices wrongly telling you that America belongs to everybody. It doesnt. If youre worthy, why dont you bring your OWN country into the 21st century - all of it.
And again, why do you think you can call yourself an American if youre too craven to hoist an M-16? Youre not living the American dream - youre here as a parasite.
The "othering" of Indian culture is institutionalized in American society as much as discrimination of women is.
razib_the_atheist,
I know, but it is one of the fastest growing sites in popularity in America.
Here is what one guy over there said
QUOTE:
"The issue is not whether Indians are bad. (But I have to ask, why havent YOU joined the armed forces as would a Kansas farmboy would - seeing how youre here to embrace America?)
See, we have a civilization because we were willing to sacrifice for it. You werent. Why dont you build your own America in India?
You and your relatives are stealing infrastructure created by centuries of risk & sacrifice of my forebears. They built this country for their posterity.
There are illegitimate voices wrongly telling you that America belongs to everybody. It doesnt. If youre worthy, why dont you bring your OWN country into the 21st century - all of it.
And again, why do you think you can call yourself an American if youre too craven to hoist an M-16? Youre not living the American dream - youre here as a parasite."
KXB wrote:
But a much bigger bunch..around 30% of the voting population in India did vote for her ...indirectly (Congress).
I know, but it is one of the fastest growing sites in popularity in America.
amren vs. my weblog (amren blue, my weblog red).
1) it isn't fast growing, in fact its traffic has dropped a lot over the year
2) it isn't popular if i run a 3,000 unique users per day weblog which nearly equals it :)
Desitude, that thread is something. I have a friend, very, very liberal and very, very Massachusetts, whose husband lost her job to Indian outsourcing. She called her congressman to complain, but she was never a free marketer to being with....
amren vs. sepia mutiny (SM in red).
That's analogous to saying that since 90% of women in India are happy to stay at home
A very large (say majority) percentage of women work in India - maid servants, farm workers, construction workers, school teachers etc.
Only middle class and upper middle class (which is still a small % as a whole) stay at home, and that too is changing. I hardly know of any woman in India in their 20-40s who does not work. Maybe, few from rich business families.
PS: Years ago, Science, an AAAS magazine did a survey of academic faculties in sciences in Poland, Hungary, India, USA, Germany, UK with respect to female. The top countries for female faculties were Poland, Hungary, India in middle, USA and UK on the bottom. Their hypothesis was extended family support group, and importance of science education for women.
But a much bigger bunch..around 30% of the voting population in India did vote for her ...indirectly (Congress).
Yes, but she could not become PM, for fear that her "otherness" would make her a target of the age-old Indian tradition of assasination.
Raj -
If that guy typed "Patel" in the Navy's global directory, he'd realize there are a ton of people, in and out of uniform, serving this nation. And that's only Patel, there are many others with different last names whose ancestry can be traced to India. Joining the military is not a requirement of citizenship. Speaking of abusing infrastructure, Indians have contributed just as every other immigrant group in helping build infrastructure. Many have worked in government services, INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY, and other places making their contributions.
What racists say to justify their own xenophobia and desire to segregate has remained relatively the same, just a different time and place.
People don't need to seek validation, just work hard, contribute to the system (votes, military, industry...)and educate. You'll become an American along the way.
blacks, hispanics and whites, the three largest groups, don't or hardly mix.
cite:
In Joyner's study, Hispanics had the highest rate of interracial relationships: 45 percent of 18- to 19-year-olds and 33 percent of 24- to 25-year-olds were in interracial relationships in the early 2000s, compared with blacks (20 and 14 percent, respectively) and whites (16 and 12 percent, respectively). While Asians appear to be comparable to Hispanics in terms of rates of interracial involvement, age patterns for Asians were not presented in the study, Joyner said, because there were so few within some of the age groups in the surveys.
age-old Indian tradition of assasination.
Wasn't Amreeka trigger happy too - McKinley, Lincoln, JFK, Reagan (attempt). They used to be a 20 year curse.
I agee they (Congress) feared assaination and would have mucked up Rahul's chances.
Yes, but she could not become PM, for fear that her "otherness" would make her a target of the age-old Indian tradition of assasination.
In the US, a foreign born person is constitutionally debarred from holding the highest office, so the issue couldn't even arise.
Meena, there are lots of reasons for Americans to be hung up on race....first, our 'colonialism' didn't take place abroad in other lands (so to speak), we had our own civil war amongst our own population on our own land that stopped the worst of it, and we have a long history of immigration that is continually shifting in terms of immigrant group. Ethnic Americans are not the majority like ethnic Dutch. And lots of people who claim they want a color-blind society are completely invested in bean counting and keeping track of things, like, say, the whole multi-cult South Asian types . The melting pot was always filled with little lumps of cheese melting. It takes a while for the melting to occur.
Instead of citing examples from my own life, I'll just use two articles from today's news. In the News Tab of Sepiaumtint, I posted a number of items. One is a Chicago Tribune article that covers a small Indian community in the poor town of Harvey, Illinois - which is just south of Chicago. The majority black population, although poor, does not bother the Indians. Even the gangs leave them alone. But, since these poor black people have no understanding of Indian culture, shouldn't they be unaccepting of them? That is not the case.
The second item is from 20/20. which had a 30 minute report on the story of Sujeet Desai and Carline Bergeron - the Down Syndrome couple that got married a few months ago. Their differing religions are never conisdered an obstacle by the two sets of parents.
William Buckley once remarked that he would rather have a government composed of 100 random people from the phone book instead of 100 random names of the Yale faculty. Thatamanil may not be from Yale, but he is an example of why too much time in academia skews ones perceptions of the country.
In the US, a foreign born person is constitutionally debarred from holding the highest office, so the issue couldn't even arise.
Yes because there was a concern that the President might be a British loyalist. Things were a little different in 1776 and nobody gave the United States much chance as a nation. In the context of late 18th century, the prohibition was quite reasonable and had nothing to do with xenophobia or nativism.
*ethnic Americans referring to native Americans :)
we're all brown, so i'll see u around town.
William Buckley once remarked that he would rather have a government composed of 100 random people from the phone book instead of 100 random names of the Yale faculty.
I think he said Harvard, but it was an astonishly foolish thing to say nevertheless.
There were a lot of political tactics in play in her "rejection" of the PM's post.
And assasination is not unique to India..it did happen in other countries too...and even US.
In US, a foreign born is debarred from contesting for a President's post.
True, but still not an excuse. He's still the leader of a nation. Saying noo-kyular instead of nuclear is not the same thing when human beings are involved.
Saying noo-kyular instead of nuclear is not the same thing when human beings are involved.
but he has 'little brown ones' in his own family!
In US, a foreign born is debarred from contesting for a President's post.
Yes and we need to put that in some historical context instead of using it as evidence of the xenophobia of the current American populace.
It could have made sense 100 years back....but what is its significance today ?
Well more like 200 years back. As you know it is extremely difficult to amend the consitution. Since the Bill of Rights additions, there only have been 17 or so amendments in almost 200 years.
Oh, and Meena? Your comments are so interesting...I love hearing about Dutch desidom. Cool.
Um, wow. I cant even begin to imagine my parents telling me that. Wow.
I don't know. Complicated questions. I'm an American, and I have such bedrock confidence in that fact that I can't really justify it, except by simply saying that it is so, the only evidence I feel I need being my passport. (Maybe that unjustified certainty is part of it?) It annoys me when others don't see me as American, but it shakes my confidence not at all. And the vast majority of my political vision has very little to do *only* with being desi. It might be informed by my desi heritage and experience, but I can't really think of a single cause I've espoused that my non South Asian friends wouldn't readily understand, and wouldn't either agree or disagree with just on the merits. My sense of community solidarity is pretty much pragmatic---what I believe in is the abstract ideal of community, so I nurture the manifestations of it as they bubble up in my life. South Asian community is just one of many. The "American" tag applies to a lot more.
yeah meena, at least you aren't always freezing like the f**king kanadians.
Sounds like an excuse to me :)
In US, a foreign born is debarred from contesting for a President's post.
Yes and we need to put that in some historical context instead of using it as evidence of the xenophobia of the current American populace.
India and America are quite different worlds in terms of experiences of race. I am not sure how relevant the example of SoniaG is to this discussion. SoniaG suggested the name of Manmohan Singh for Prime Minister herself. Plus, Manmohan Singh is by far the more qualified person for the post in the first place.
letz drop the india vs. amerika comparison already. letz get down with the american brown!
Al:
Yes and we need to put that in some historical context instead of using it as evidence of the xenophobia of the current American populace.
Polls aren't showing a national groundswell for putting a foreign-born citizen in the Oval Office. In a USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Nov. 19-21, 31% favored such an amendment, and 67% opposed it. Opposition dropped slightly, to 58%, when Schwarzenegger's name was included in the question. Link
Opposition dropped slightly, to 58%, when Schwarzenegger's name was included in the question
they're racist against austrians, people with accents and hard to pronounce names!
Yes...lets roll with the real topic.
Maybe someday we can have a desidiaspora cultural olympics......Brit Bhangra versus M. Night versus Russell Peters and so on.
Bring. It. On.
hiz name is manoj. not "m." you got a problem with reel name? don't Otherize him.
but you are an MD, i guess more likely to Motherize him.
well, for the amount of cash he's earning, I'd otherize myself.
*MD, sell-out.
100 comments in 3 hrs...not a bad rate by any means.
if you think that's impressive, get back on the boat, it was well over 100 even while you wrote.
Desi cheerleading squad must be a part of the olympics. Then everyone can start arguing over the uniforms. Girls from India are in Punjabis, while those South Asian American girl team has those dirty mini-skirts. Cheeee! Tauba Tauba.
Is it going to be the squad that has dominated Fogana competitions in the United States or will be it be the underfunded but spunky crew from Himachal Pradesh?
guju,
how about amerika vs. england brown-math-olympiads. no contest, you don't even need to play the game to know the outcome.
Polls aren't showing a national groundswell for putting a foreign-born citizen in the Oval Office. In a USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Nov. 19-21, 31% favored such an amendment, and 67% opposed it. Opposition dropped slightly, to 58%, when Schwarzenegger's name was included in the question.
But considering the fact that the Americans have a nauseating reverence for the constitution, most Americans would be leary of amending the consitution for any reason except of course for stopping the faggotry of the homosexuals.
England wouldn't stand a chance in the spelling bee. You guys are the gangsters of that discipline.
My spelling and grammar sucks, too.
u make the thug music, but we live the thug live. geek-thug that iz.
On racism and economic harm. Here's a study on Muslim Americans. Haven't parsed it so don't flail me if its a pinko-leftist group.
NEW YORK - The earnings of Arab and Muslim men working in the United States dropped about 10 percent in the years following the 9/11 attacks, according to a new study.
The drop in wages was most dramatic in areas that reported high rates of hate crimes, according to the study due to be published in the Journal of Human Resources.
The study measured changes in wages of first- and second-generation immigrants, from countries with predominantly Arab or Muslim populations from September 1997 to September 2005. It then compared them to changes in the wages of immigrants with similar skills from other countries.
The average wage was approximately $20 an hour ahead of the attacks in 2001 and dropped by $2 an hour after them, Robert Kaestner, co-author of the study and a University of Illinois at Chicago professor of economics, said on Thursday.
That drop persisted through 2004 but showed signs of abating in 2005, he said.
'I was surprised,' Kaestner said. 'We see an immediate and significant connection between personal prejudice and economic harm.'
Link
When I set foot in America in 1973, it was a predominantly white country. Today, brown is a common color in the human landscape. Heck, in a place like Miami-Ft. Lauderdale, where I live, brown is the mainstream color. And it is not just the color. Diversity has become socially accepted. Did you know that in the seventies, you could not get a hot cup of tea easily in most fast food restaurants because Americans only drank coffee, and only Indians ordered, or rather begged, for water with a McDonald's meal.
Today, I can't imagine how a desi could feel anything but American. I would venture to say that other typical desi attributes pose bigger barriers to assimilation for any ethnic minority. You go out to lunch with your colleagues and you have nothin to say for an hour because they are all talking football. Or your fourteen year old daughter tells you that all her friends have boy friends. Or your son is hell bent on being a writer instead of a doctor. Those, boys and girls, are what makes a desi of my generation feel like a foreigner forever. But if you grew up here, you don't have those hang-ups? Why wouldn't you feel as American as anybody?
P.S. Those desi hang-ups cited above are just examples, and neither are desis of my generation that worried about having them.
desitude:
I dont know about that study but a lot of American born and raised Muslims who look Muslim (hijab etc.) are having a hard time in general. The number of women who wear hijab and drive and get shown the finger is staggering. Almost every hijabi I know has at least been verbally harassed in the last year or two. I actually question the wisdom of wearing hijab these days with all the shit going on.
Floridian,
My parents told me the same thing about hot tea...in the mid west in the late sixties they had to go to a truck stop outside the small college town we lived in to get hot tea! They said it was a really nice truck stop, though.
(I went back home to visit the Iowa State Fair and I saw like, so many Indians in one of the grocery stores in my town. I was like, whoah, where were you when I was a kid?)
razib, guju and red snapper: Big Brother, desidiaspora ishtyle with competeing diasporans?
Okay, time to stop hogging the thread