Prediction: the police will prevail.

Does the South Asian community of Edison have enough voting power and are politically organized enough to support Choi through these demands?

The South Asian community of Edison, NJ is not a monolithic group. There are so many waves of immigration that have settled into the township and they all have different political and economic interests. Do you think they all vote as a bloc and/or are politically aligned the same way? Probably not, I think.

Pooja makes a good point and identifies a common problem in politics -- how to unite a coalition of diverse people toward a common goal. India is a country of hundreds of languages, cultures, and religions and Desi-Americans are even more diverse. The natural inclination is to focus on what divides us rather than what unites us.

But, if we don't put aside our difference to find common cause with one another, important issues like this will go unaddressed. Do you think the "frat boy" police union (sidenote: interesting that an article on racism would make this unfair generalization about frat alumni) is a monolithic group? They too have diverse political and economic interests but they look past their differences to exert a political force that is greater than the sum of its parts. I'm not saying we need to join hands and sing 'kumbaya' but a little unity goes a long way. Let's not forget how diverse groups of Indians came together for the original sepia mutiny:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj#The_Indian_Rebellion_of_1857_or_.22First_War_of_Indian_Independence.22

I live 20 minutes from Edison and have grown up in NJ. The preponderance of desis in that area (the whole county, Middlesex, is becoming a desi zone) are Gujaratis (clear majority), followed by South Indians, followed (at a distant 3rd) by Sikhs. So ther is some diversity, but not overwhelmingly so. The economic interests may not always match, but my hunch is the political interests of most desis in that area will be similar. I was shocked when I learned (several weeks ago) of the anti-Indian backlash protest that was held by predominantly white female relatives/friends of police officers, when the Indians held their protest at the mayor's office. Obviously there is a strong anti-desi sentiment lying under the surface there (no longer under the surface I guess). The police definitely have that frat boy mentality. Combined with anti-Indian sentiment, maybe this scenario was inevitable.

As an aside, I encourage any desi visiting NYC area to stop by Edison/Iselin, specifically the fabled Oak Tree Road...especially on the weekend. Although it's no comparison to my beloved Southall, it is a pretty amazing place...great restaurants, music/video/grocery stores, more jewelry shops than you could ever imagine, Bollywood dance classes, and just great atmosphere overall...I love having it nearby.

Obviously there is a strong anti-desi sentiment lying under the surface there (no longer under the surface I guess).

That's been there since I was a wee tyke. I lived in Edison for more than a quarter-century and voted in seven (7) elections. Not surprised that this happened; perhaps I am just too jaded.

I'm not surprised. Many complain that the white population in Central New Jersey is quite anti-Indian; if you talk to whites, several will tell you that the place is being "taken over." Jersey City has a very large desi population too, but the whites have been so overwhelmed by immigration - not just by Indians but by Pakistanis, West Indians, Fillipinos, Egyptians, Moroccans - that they've for the most part left. Interestingly, on the JC waterfront, very many Britishers who work on Wall Street have moved into the high-rises, readily visible by their "Manchester United" jerseys. They seem very comfortable around desis; doesn't bother them in the least :)

Amitabh -- friendly question, what is the "frat boy mentality?" It doesn't sound like it's a particularly good mentality. Is this any different than non-desis talking about a negative "desi mentality" stereotype? Remember, we're on the side of open-mindedness, not labelling groups of people!

So, if there's an anti-desi mentality in Edison - WHY?

What in the hell is wrong with this world? I am getting really depressed by the increasing number of reports of anti this or anti that sentiments. Seems we can't learn from history.

Us and Them!

Humans are predisposed to categorize everything and incourse favor/support one group over the other. This is part of the evolution (call it survival instinct), and no recourse in the short time; but to live with it.

Indians in India have "anti-xyz" against a horde of things.
1.North Indians Calling SouthIndians - Maddu's (Madrasi)
2.Bhaiyas - what south Indians call northies
3.Within North India - Jats,Cut-Sar, Sardars, Phaadis, Lucknowi Nawaabs...etc
4.South India - its a mess. ( within States, they diss each other)

From grouping ourselves across oceans & continents, the same mentality pervades even our families and THE FAMILY.

So..options: one can ignore it, fight it, educate about it, just "diss" about one who cares about it....reality is, the genetic predispostion from millions of years of evolution is difficult to shrug off!!!

** I am not condoning or supporting the acts,but just an observation of our human ecosystem.

8 · metric on August 29, 2006 11:31 AM · Direct link

So, if there's an anti-desi mentality in Edison - WHY?

What in the hell is wrong with this world? I am getting really depressed by the increasing number of reports of anti this or anti that sentiments. Seems we can't learn from history.

Demagogues whipping up animosity towards non-whites, particularly brown skinned people(ie illegal immigrants and terrorists).

Pooja, Amitabh & Desitude:

Have the big grocery chains left Edison? How about malls? Starbucks? Jamba Juice? The restaurants? Is the town's tax revenue decreased? Is the police less well-paid? On a scale where well-manicured lawns and landscaped backyards rank 10 and blighted neighborhoods rank 0, what would you rank the city?

Pooja, Umang:

Do you really think that inspite of being a diverse group of people, IAs would have a problem coming together on an issue such as this? The way I saw it was: damn, another case of discrimination against a minority...I don't think my process was: hey, he's a ***...he deserves it. I imagine that is pretty similar to how people process discrimination...you see first the big group.

It is surprising that a place like Edison (which has a large Indian community) cannot get more than 60 supporters out. I think the problem is more to do with the fact that Desi's don't like to go out on a limb to take a stand. It's the "hide and maybe we won't get hurt" mentality (an in this case we = immeditae family).

Umang in Post 7:

Though I am not Amitabh, I will attempt an answer.

Frat boy mentality means the police have a negative stereotype about a community, then act on this stereotype. How do the police act on it? Supppose that a crime is committed by a man from the stereotyped community. The police will investigate the crime with unusual thoroughness. Moreover, if there is an unwarranted use of force, this will be covered up. Finally, the police will not tell the mayor everything the mayor needs to know. Why not? Because the police know that the mayor is in a bind---the mayor must support the police and must also seek votes from the community.

Have the big grocery chains left Edison?

How about malls?

Starbucks?

Jamba Juice?

The restaurants?

Is the town's tax revenue decreased? Is the police less well-paid?

On a scale where well-manicured lawns and landscaped backyards rank 10 and blighted neighborhoods rank 0, what would you rank the city?

Do you really think that inspite of being a diverse group of people, IAs would have a problem coming together on an issue such as this?

I've raised this question before, and I'll raise it again...what's up with New Jersey? I grew up in Maryland's DC suburbs. The desi population here is significant, but probably not as much so as that of Edison. Every five years or so, at least for the past 25 years (from the dot-heads on) anti-indian sentiment in New Jersey seems to become a news story. Why don't you hear about this in Northern California, DC, or anywhere else where there is a large desi population?

Pooja, thanks for answering all my questions.

I often feel that these kinds of problems can only be solved by psychologists or sociologists, not by mayors, politicians or community leaders.

My suspicion runs like this:

Before Edison's demographics changed, stores were run by Anglo-Americans. The customers were also Anglo-Americans. The ice was broken very quickly between customer and storekeeper. Going to a store became a pleasant experience---it was social interaction, not just a business transaction. This would happen in every store. It becamse a comforting routine. They would have called it the Anglo-American way of life.

After the demographics changed, going to a store changed completely. The storekeeper and the customers were of different ethnicities. The ice was not broken. Going to a store has become a purely business transaction, no longer a social interaction. It was no longer the Anglo-American way of life.

The Anglo-Americans began to resent the new arrivals. The new arrivals realized that they are not well-liked. The tensions began.

PGW, more about Edison. (Money Magazine named Edison, NJ 28th on its 2006 list of Best Places to Live.)

When I think of "frat boys" and those generalizations, I think more of the West Village, Hoboken, or the PATH train, late at night on weekends: staggering, disheveled drunk and/or puking guys in the their early 20s, roaring at each other, though all easily within earshot. The term doesn't necessarily bring the image of racism, though it does, to me, imply a "hang together" group-think, which, in the case of the Edison cops would also be the famous blue wall of silence.

On the subject of desi activism, aside from Indians getting involved in politics (and S. Mitra Kalita's "Suburban Sahibs" covers this well, in fact covers the whole Edison area and 1990s history very well), how come more folks don't join the police force, and bring about change from within? Last I read, I think there was only maybe 1 Indian cop on the local police force there. If they get paid anything like Nassau County cops, it should be a pretty good job too, and without the high risk involved in, say, NYC.

I think another difference between Jersey City and Edison is that JC went through a much more dire time economically than Edison ever did (though I know things were in a slump in Edison too), and there was a lot of resentment when in the 60s and 70s so many (often Gujurati) families moved in to the Newark Ave area and renovated the businesses, while the whites and minorities were not doing as well. [Let's not forget the horrible DotBuster years.] And indeed, as was pointed out earlier, JC has had wave after wave of immigrants (well written about in Helene Stapinski's "Five Finger Discount"), the whole Edison area was pretty homogenous until the Indian immigration in the 80s and 90s.

Nowadays, JC has 2 pockets of Indians: the waterfront folk who are generally IT/banking people and affluent, and the Newark Ave residents who are more working class. On the whole, I think the economic demographic of Edison skews way more toward the higher end.

When I drive down Oak Tree Road and pass a senior citizen home and see some of the (non-Indian, of course) residents sitting outside, I'm sure they must blink and ask themselves as they look at the dozens of subzi mandis, sari shops and dosa/chaat/kebab places lining the street, "Wow, when did this all happen!?"

PS - and on the the subject of police response and desi community relations, what's the latest on the whole Bips-manhandled-on-the-way-to-the-parade story?

The Anglo-Americans began to resent the new arrivals. The new arrivals realized that they are not well-liked. The tensions began.

The whole Edison area was pretty homogenous until the Indian immigration in the 80s and 90s.

What's the latest on the whole Bips-manhandled-on-the-way-to-the-parade story?

Interesting comments- thanks for the knowledge Jersey- Working in the Asian/South Asian space in So Cal is a lot different, especially with regards to history then in Jersey.

Sriram,

South Asian cities...

1) NYC
2) Chicago
3) DC/MD/VA Metro area
4) Los Angeles
5) Edison/Middlesex area

Looks like it may not be a population size thing as much as a demographic difference thing.

"Every five years or so, at least for the past 25 years (from the dot-heads on) anti-indian sentiment in New Jersey seems to become a news story. Why don't you hear about this in Northern California, DC, or anywhere else where there is a large desi population?"

Not familiar with the desi demographics in those pockets of NJ where racial backlash has occurred, I can only offer a generalization, which I am sure someone with hard data will disprove. Merely a large concentration of desis will not necessarily raise the ire of the other locals. It depends on the type of work they do. Desi store owners with their exotic signs on Main Street become visible occupants of prime real estate in a community. Software designers working in office towers, on the other hand, remain invisible and hence ignored. Desi gas station attendants in NJ deal with the public. Desi engineers do not. I think the NJ problems can be attributed not just to its large concentration of desis but the type of work many of them do.

How apropos of this to be posted after the now infamous "Are we Desi?" thread....

Not familiar with the desi demographics in those pockets of NJ where racial backlash has occurred, I can only offer a generalization, which I am sure someone with hard data will disprove. Merely a large concentration of desis will not necessarily raise the ire of the other locals. It depends on the type of work they do.

Rest comfortable in your belief that software babus will not be targeted my friend :) But seriously, 90% of the doctors on Oak Tree Road (which stretches for several miles) are desi, and all of them interact with and treat the local community. As you may know, most of the major pharma companies - J&J, Merck, Schering Plogh, Pfizer - are either headquartered in New Jersey or have a substantial presence there, and all of them are teeming with desi professionals. There are all sorts of possible white interactions with nj desitude, and very many of them are daily transacted on a professional level. As Pooja mentioned, the economies of Edison, Iselin and Woodbridge are sound, and desis have contributed much to them. Creating wealth is not enough to prevent such outbursts. Its the critical mass - 10% of Central jersey is desi, over 2.5% state-wide- that foments white resentment and occasionally hatred, so much so that they believe their "land" is being encroached upon by an alien culture, and it ain't a good thing.

Hi Guys,

This is my first time here. I am a desi living in the south. I think this new jersey issue is overblown, even worse it has taken racial overtones. Lets look at the facts.

The "accused" Mr. Parikh with his friends was throwing fireworks in a residential parking lot. NJ officer showed up and warned them not to do so. They got in to an argument and one leads to another, the officer did what he is supposed to do. Apprehend the culprit. Now someone educate me, what exactly is wrong here? Do you want some punk kids throwing fireworks in your parking lot? Because we are brown does not mean we should play the race card and act like victims.

If every immigrant starts breaking the law and plays the victim, I am afraid this great country will look like India, not a promising future for our children is it?

I am with the New Jersey police on this issue. Lets not forget, irrespective what your stand on immigration is, Mr. Parikh did break the law and overstayed in the country against INS warnings. Thats where the stroy ends.

The "accused" Mr. Parikh with his friends was throwing fireworks in a residential parking lot. NJ officer showed up and warned them not to do so. They got in to an argument and one leads to another, the officer did what he is supposed to do.

That's highly speculative on your part. Parikh said he was attacked without provocation.

Because we are brown does not mean we should play the race card and act like victims.

You too would consider yourself a victim of excessive force if you'd been attacked without provocation.

If every immigrant starts breaking the law and plays the victim, I am afraid this great country will look like India.

Every immigrant in India breaks the law and plays the victim?

The "accused" Mr. Parikh with his friends was throwing fireworks in a residential parking lot. NJ officer showed up and warned them not to do so. They got in to an argument and one leads to another, the officer did what he is supposed to do. Apprehend the culprit. Now someone educate me, what exactly is wrong here? Do you want some punk kids throwing fireworks in your parking lot? Because we are brown does not mean we should play the race card and act like victims.

Having followed the news in the local newspapers and talking to some friends who live in that area, I agree.
Businesses on Oak Tree Road primarily cater to Indian customer base and over time business owners (mostly Gujratis) have become arrogant and feel like they are above the law. If you observe closely, all laws on Oak Tree Road have been thrown out of the window. Cars are regularly parked in no-parking areas, shop/business owners don't respect the local building/community laws, people regularly jay-walking.

The above is my opinion based on what I have seen for myself. No flames please.

"That's highly speculative on your part. Parikh said he was attacked without provocation"

An internal investigation showed no fault on the officer's part. Assuming I am speculating, any reason why Mr. Parikh is telling the truth?

"You too would consider yourself a victim of excessive force if you'd been attacked without provocation"

Definitely, but is there any proof to suggest Mr. Parikh was assaulted without provocation?

"Every immigrant in India breaks the law and plays the victim?"

I meant to say, U.S.A will look like a lawless country such as India. Little bit of imagination should have clarified that part.

None of us were there to know the whole story. however, we all make conclusions based on how we perceive the incident which is deeply colored by our own experiences and biases. Looking at this issue dispassionately, I can't help but wonder what this hoopla is all about?

Businesses on Oak Tree Road primarily cater to Indian customer base and over time business owners (mostly Gujratis) have become arrogant and feel like they are above the law.

I think those defending the police are missing the whole point of this issue. The question isn't "Did Parikh break the law?" it's "Did the police use excessive force?" Even if he did break the law, this still does not give the police the authority to attack Parikh unless Parikh was armed or resisting arrest, neither of which is being alleged against him.

I am with the New Jersey police on this issue. Lets not forget, irrespective what your stand on immigration is, Mr. Parikh did break the law and overstayed in the country against INS warnings. Thats where the stroy ends.

Yes, how dare he over stay on his visa. Once you over stay on your visa nothing that happens to you can be excessive. Before being so freaking glib and Limbaugh lite, have you ever walked a day in the shoe of a person who over stays his visa?

Vignesh
however, we all make conclusions based on how we perceive (the incident) which is deeply colored by our own experiences and biases.

Your statement above applies very well to your statement below(brackets, mine).

I meant to say, U.S.A will look like a lawless country such as India.

Try to less brain-dead if you can help it.

Yes, how dare he over stay on his visa. Once you over stay on your visa nothing that happens to you can be excessive. Before being so freaking glib and Limbaugh lite, have you ever walked a day in the shoe of a person who over stays his visa?

Al Mujahid for debauchery -

That's a non-sensical argument within the context of this thread. Why should we try to walk in the shoe of someone who breaks the law? What are you trying to say?

Mr. Parikh did break the law and overstayed in the country against INS warnings

Whether he (or anyone) overstayed his visa? That does not warrant excessive force by police at all. Also, breaking law does not give license to get beaten.

"I think those defending the police are missing the whole point of this issue. The question isn't "Did Parikh break the law?" it's "Did the police use excessive force?" Even if he did break the law, this still does not give the police the authority to attack Parikh unless Parikh was armed or resisting arrest, neither of which is being alleged against him"

Hi Lavanya, no offense, I do not mean to flame you. Did the cops use brute force or not is a different issue, but a valid one. Till now there is no evidence to support that theory. My question is, why this agony and fury over an issue that is ridden with so many assumptions? Aren't we better than that?

I have been a lurker on this site for long time. One recurrent theme has been, Indians getting a raw deal in the U.S.A. I am a fresh of the boat immigrant and till date did not find anything particular to distrub me. This is not to suggest people elesewhere did not have problems. But I think we Indians tend to overreact for everything.

When I lived in Chicago, I visited Devon avenue frequently. However, I stopped going there because of the sheer audacity and venality of Indian business owners. Absolutely no respect for traffic rules, no compliance for building regulations, abusing labor, and the list is endless. Even worse, now the street is complete with beetel spits!

I left India, only to escape the madness that has come to mark my birth place. Common sense has become a rarity over there. Anyone in his sane mind will find it incomprehensible, to see how Indian business owners do business in Indian enclaves such as Devon ave. I can only imagine how it is in NJ.

Is there any better way to integrate in a new society than respecting the law of the land and making it a better place? Sure, we are rich and have lots of money, but that is no excuse to break the law. Cops are under lots of pressure, at times maybe they overreact. To call it racism is downright laughable.

If we truly want to stand up to that "model minority" status, it starts with self-criticism and correcting our course.

I refuse to join this "mutiny with no cause". Let facts unfold and I will decide accordingly.

Overstaying your visa is a civil offense akin to a green card holder going out of status because he fails to report an address change to the INS within 10 days of moving to a new residence. Bringing up such a fact to discredit a person is foolish and vile. I don’t believe that people who over stay on their visas are any less credible than the citizens of the US. Drinking right wing cool aid on illegal immigrants = law breakers = evil dudes and then regurgitating that nonsense here calls for a comment. Vignesh is of course free to sit with fellow law and order warriors and become their bitch, however, if he comes to SM and makes such callous and dumb remarks, he will be called out.

It is surprising that a place like Edison (which has a large Indian community) cannot get more than 60 supporters out.

These 60 supporters and their protests by no means represent Edison's "Indian community" of 17,000 people. They are extreme, divisive voices who are closedmindedly supporting Mr. Parikh just because he said that he was assaulted/abused by a police officer. But I think more people, especially these extreme voices (especially those of CERTAIN self-proclaimed "leaders" of the Indian community I shall not name)need to really take a step back and examine what both "sides" are saying in this case and not just automatically support and lobby for the man of the same ethnicity who claims he was abused and skew this incident into another act of discrimination by another Edison cop. The Edison cop claims that HE was the one assaulted, which is a claim that many people have been blatantly ignoring. The extreme voices, the 60 people at the rally, have certainly not been entertaining the possibility that Mr. Parikh did anything wrong and is nothing short of the victim. How do they know whether or not Mr. Parikh is telling the truth/being honest? Why are they not accepting the reality that Mr. Parikh COULD HAVE (but may not have, they can't know for sure) been the one doing the assaulting? Why is Mr. Parikh, in their eyes, automatically the innocent victim? Sure, I'm from the area and I've seen the pictures of a bruised Mr. Parikh circulating, but nonetheless, he still COULD HAVE assaulted the officer and the officer COULD HAVE been acting in self defense. Not many people beyond Mr. Parikh and the officer know what truly happened, so the aforementioned extreme voices should stop assuming and acting like they know what actually happened and start being more openminded.

"have you ever walked a day in the shoe of a person who over stays his visa?"

Al Mujahid, I have no plans to do so. The day I lose my legal status, I would leave gracefully.

"Try to less brain-dead if you can help it"

Kissmyetc, I don't see your point.

Umang:

Frat boy mentality...hmm, if you went to high school in this country, there was usually a clique known as 'jocks'. Typically athletic, all-American types, usually not very good academically...liked to cause trouble. Occasionally a desi could be part of that group too but it was rare (even if a desi was good at sports, the parental control would largely have prevented the worst of jock behavior and also ensured that academics were given a priority). Fast forward to college, and those same jocks (those who went on to college) were now in the fraternities...drinking and partying and getting into trouble. Fraternities did have some desis in them when I was in college (early 90s). In any case, it's not a precise term but frat boy mentality implies an aggressive, arrogant, hard-partying, athletic, intellectually underdeveloped, lacking in empathy kind of a person. And often racist (again, there are desi and black and other minority participants in the fraternity scene).

PG Wodehouse:

I can only guess, but my assumption is the Indian explosion has been good for Edison/Iselin as a whole...prior to the 80s, it was a nondescript, white working-class area. Humdrum kind of a place. The Indian businesses have revitalised it, and most of them seem to be doing pretty well...which I'm sure is not hurting the tax base. But, more to the point, it has gone from primarily white to 30% desi in two decades...that's a lot for the local non-desis to swallow. I think that's the root cause of the tension. When I go there and see all the desi shops, restaurants, people, etc. I feel happy...but if a white boy drives past all that, it must be infuriating. As for the lawns, houses, etc. as Pooja said, it varies. I wouldn't personally give anyplace there a 10+ but neighborhoods (in my subjective estimation) range from 5-8. As for restuarants...lots of great (desi) places...

But I think we Indians tend to overreact for everything.

I would go the other way, that colored immigrants (be it Indians, Hispanics) are willing to take a lot of shit almost in every arena, get underpaid and what not till today, get thrown out of trains (1800s South Africa).

I will have to give full credit to ABDs for making noise and not being complacent about it.

Trust me, in a few years, you will start seeing things that you did not notice before. Cops tend to overeact to particular ethnicities. You'll find out sooner or later.

Have you been to Chinatowns in US of A, they look like little East Asias and that is the charm and beauty of those places. I would not complain too much Indiatowns in NJ or Ill.

Madness in India or South Asia comes with billion people there - put same population density anywhere and you will see the same. That is its greatest assest and weakness too.

I left India, only to escape the madness that has come to mark my birth place. Common sense has become a rarity over there.

I grew up here. I once had a Jewish partner in a professional practice. Since we were merging clients, we decided to do a fun little experiment: We would ask every one of his generally white-collar clients what they thought of Indians in NJ.

Here were some of the responses. Not scientifically sampled, I admit:

1) pfft. sand n****s
2) pfft. towel heads
3) pfft. 7-11s have gone down since they took them over
4) well, better than hispanics and blacks, they don't arm and rob people
5) pfft. sand n****s
6) good people, hard working, only they should give up their weird customs.

He was embarassed, and I was shocked. The story in New Jersey is long and complex, and whatever the merits or lack thereof in Mr. Parikh's case, to pretend their hasn't been a history of racism here would be very naive.

"Bringing up such a fact to discredit a person is foolish and vile"

AlMujahid, you are right on spot. I did not refer to his out-of-status as means to discredit him. Like any normal human being, if interrogated on his legal status, what IF Mr. Parikh did assault the cop first? Do you have evidence to prove optherwise?

"Drinking right wing cool aid on illegal immigrants = law breakers = evil dudes and then regurgitating that nonsense here calls for a comment"

I never referred to anything to that effect. However, I understand my words could be
misconstrued that way. To calrify, as I mentioned earlier, I brought that up to ask, how did Mr. Parekh react to those questions. My impression is, not everyone is as well informed as Al Mujahid to know the law well.

"Vignesh is of course free to sit with fellow law and order warriors and become their bitch, however, if he comes to SM and makes such callous and dumb remarks, he will be called out"

I was under the impression, this Sepia Mutiny blog is run by people who respect different points of view. If this blog is meant to bully the "nay sayers" I am afraid I see nothing different between Rush limbaugh and Al Mujahid types. I wish someone clarifies me, if SM is mean't to attract the church choir singers, because I am afraid, I am a heathen!

Yes, come on people, the civility on this blog has really gone down a bit lately. Vignesh is presenting his point of view politely, if you disagree then call him out on it, but be nice...sheesh!

I fully agree with Kush.
Indians are usually pretty patient...and they tend to take a lot of shit from authorities. Having lived in India for 22 years, I can attest to the fact that desis are "hardenend" by the time they land up in Amreeka.

They seldom complain about standing in queues and waiting for their turn. They seldom report racially motivated incidents/slurs and try to hush it up. The situation is changing (for the better) these days..and ABDs are a big reason for this change.

I was under the impression, this Sepia Mutiny blog is run by people who respect different points of view. If this blog is meant to bully the "nay sayers" I am afraid I see nothing different between Rush limbaugh and Al Mujahid types. I wish someone clarifies me, if SM is mean't to attract the church choir singers, because I am afraid, I am a heathen!

I dont run SM. I have no control over its editorial content. I am however free to call out other commenters on their views just like other commenters can comment on my views.

Vignesh is of course free to sit with fellow law and order warriors and become their bitch, however, if he comes to SM and makes such callous and dumb remarks, he will be called out

And what are you? - Sepia Mutiny Police?

This is a public blog. Everyone has right to express their point of view as long as they don't violate the rules of this forum. And by the same token, you have the right to show your disagreement. However, it should be done in a civilized language.

"I would go the other way, that colored immigrants (be it Indians, Hispanics) are willing to take a lot of shit almost in every arena, get underpaid and what not till today, get thrown out of trains (1800s South Africa)"

"Madness in India or South Asia comes with billion people there - put same population density anywhere and you will see the same. That is its greatest assest and weakness too."

Kush, I second your opinions. But, for all we know, Mr. Parikh could be equally guilty? If brute force was used unwarrantedly then the cops should be taken to task. The truth is, the mayor (asian) has given a clean chit to the cop. But, then in a matter of time some of us will accuse how "Asian" joined hands with whites! Everything is a conspiracy nowadays!

Viggy..relax..
its time to get jiggy.

But, for all we know, Mr. Parikh could be equally guilty?

He could be. I'll give you that.

Welcome to the commenting world of SM.

"its time to get jiggy"

Brownfob, I am always jiggy.

Kush, thanks for the welcome.

Come on, macacas! This should be more disturbing to everyone on both sides of this debate:

At the rally, a group of approximately 60 South Asians were met by counter protesters who made anti-immigrant and racist slurs, such as, "How many of you are illegals? You must've slid under the border to come here"; "You're all cockroaches! Go home!"; and "If you behave like animals you will be treated like animals"

Maybe Raj Parikh overstayed his visa. Maybe the police used too much force. These are in debate. What's not in debate is that some people that we assume are residents of Edison showed up with signs calling their neighbors "cockroaches", a term used with horrific consequences in the past. My guess is that the counterprotestors were a small group, but for a group of people to openly call neighbors "cockroaches" is just plain ugly.

Hey Taz, I just realized your title is ¡Deporten a la Migra! I have that shirt! We need to come up with a desi equivalent for that.

Yeah you guys, geez. As host for this post i don't even know how to moderate this thread besides saying "play NICE!"

----------------------------
I will say this- Vignesh, you say you are skeptical of the incident because of the things you've heard in media and word on the street. Personally, I'm skeptical of the whole incident too, especially since media portrayal is usually biased. EXCEPT I really, really, respect the organizations that have co-signed onto the statement that I linked to above. They are the legalese types that would never create and send out a statement unless a real injustice has been done. I do realize that my trust in those orgs, are based on the work I've done with them, but I'm passing on the message to you, if they co-signed it, they are more trustworthy than the media.

"What's not in debate is that some people that we assume are residents of Edison showed up with signs calling their neighbors "cockroaches", a term used with horrific consequences in the past. My guess is that the counterprotestors were a small group, but for a group of people to openly call neighbors "cockroaches" is just plain ugly."

EXACTLY. This in itself speaks volumes. It's this kind of backlash and comments that makes police brutality believable (whether that part of the story is accurate or not). These comments in themselves point to racism and anti-desi sentiment, whether you believe the police brutality charges or not.

Yeah you guys, geez. As host for this post i don't even know how to moderate this thread besides saying "play NICE!"

Hey taz, thats what happens when you allow macaccas to leave comments.:) Playing nice is an alien concept to many macaccas like me.

"I do realize that my trust in those orgs, are based on the work I've done with them, but I'm passing on the message to you, if they co-signed it, they are more trustworthy than the media."

Thanks taz, I definitely have an open mind. I firmly beleive in American judiciary (atleast more than the Indian ones). Justice shall prevail!!!!

I dont think it helps south asian community to be with the Minuteman types when it comes to illegal aliens. Any attrocity on South Asian must, I say must be protested and fought against (no matter the status of the person involved). Otherwise we will remain without any political influence what-so-ever and remain in the political margins of the society.

A lot of my fellow FOBs (such as Vignesh) dont like politics and unfortunately are elitist and unable to see their elite position and unable to give due consideration to a fellow poorer Desi. This is a disastrous attitude. I dont like breaking of any law just as much as the next guy, but I will support all actions that tries to prevent Desis being run over due to their lower political profile.

Looks like it may not be a population size thing as much as a demographic difference thing.

Taz, just looking for clarification. What do you mean by this. Do you mean the demographic of the area in which the desi population is found (i.e., the top 4 places on the list would seem to be more racially diverse than the areas surrounding Edison)? I started thinking it might be that Edison/Middlesex is the only one of those where the desi population might be a significant part of the overall population of the area. That is, even though NYC has the largest number of south asians, that population might still be a very small percentage of the population at large.

Looks like it may not be a population size thing as much as a demographic difference thing.

(#21)

Taz, just looking for clarification. What do you mean by this.

Interesting. Basically that ranking is based on pure census 2000 numbers, not percentage of desi/all population. Which I dunno, do we think that it would be different? I'm sure if I/someone had the time, that i/they could number crunch it off of census.gov. Anyhow, the demographics are different i feel because even though like NYC, they are more concentrated, closer community, than in Los Angeles which is more sprawl and leads to a different dynamic. Basically, what yo were just saying. ;-)

Taz:

Desis are definitely very 'concentrated' in Somerset-Middlesex counties of NJ, so even though the total population may rank 5th, I wouldn't be surprised if the density of desis there ranks 1st, especially in terms of percent of total population.

"A lot of my fellow FOBs (such as Vignesh) dont like politics"

I am afraid you are making assumptions even without knowing me.

"I dont like breaking of any law just as much as the next guy, but I will support all actions that tries to prevent Desis being run over due to their lower political profile".

Breaking the law and supporting the underdogs are two different things. I support my community no matter what. But why should I defend, if the alleged culprit is actually a culprit and not a victim?

There is nothing elitist about what I said, I am simply asking to verify the facts before hurling abuses on each other. Thats not too much elitism, is it?

There is nothing elitist about what I said, I am simply asking to verify the facts before hurling abuses on each other. Thats not too much elitism, is it?

Vignesh: I think no one really knows what the facts are as far as the abuse goes but I dont think we should be cheering or even accepting the deportation of this man. The ICE clearly deported him because he was taking on the police and the police did not like that. I am not a proponent of open borders. However we cannot use immigration laws to suppress dissent.

Desis are definitely very 'concentrated' in Somerset-Middlesex counties of NJ, so even though the total population may rank 5th, I wouldn't be surprised if the density of desis there ranks 1st, especially in terms of percent of total population

From 2000 census, top 10 counties in the descending order of (sa/total)*100 are :

(sa=south asian= indian+bangladeshi+pakistani+sri lankan)

1)Sutter, CA (sa pop=7,914 percent=10.03)
2)Middlese, NJ (sa pop=61,485 percent=8.2)
3)Queens, NY (sa pop=164,636 percent=7.84)
4)Fort Bend, TX (sa pop=16,941 percent=4.78)
5)Santa Clara,CA (sa pop=73,840 percent=4.39)
6)Hudson, NJ (sa pop=26,045 percent=4.28)
7)DuPage, IL (sa pop=36,213 percent=4.01)
8)Somerset, NJ (sa pop=11,569 percent=3.89)
9)Fairfax, VA (sa pop=36,547 percent=3.77)
10)Alameda,CA (sa pop=50,327 percent=3.49)

So Middlesex finishes second and Somerset is ninth. But since Sutter county has a very small total population compared to others in top 10, we can conceivably ignore it and declare Middlesex county as the desiest. Other notable concentrations are - Queens (remarkably high percentage for a huge south asian population) and bay area - Santa Clara (Sunnyvale and San Jose primarily) and Alameda (east bay: Fremont) together have close to 125K south asians at a decent concentration of close to 4%.

The top three cities with significant population of south asians and highest percentages are Edison (18%), Fremont (11%) and Sunnyvale (10.5%). There are smaller cities with better percentages, but the total population in those cities are neglibile compared to these three.

Of the 10 metropolitan areas with largest south asian populations, New York--Northern New Jersey--Long Island, NY--NJ--CT--PA CMSA handily beats everyone else in both total and percentages (548,390 south asians at 2.6%). SF--Oakland--San Jose area is second in both (168,716 at 2.4)

Thanks Dipanjan. According to what I've read, in NJ, desis (specifically Indians) are the 4th largest group overall (after white, blacks, and hispanics) but supposedly the fastest growing group (even more than hispanics) in RELATIVE terms. In ABSOLUTE terms, yes hispanics are the fastest growing.

Jai:

You're probably looking at this thread and laughing at what we Americans consider to be high percentages of desis (at least compared to the UK).

This article cites 2005 state census data which claims a surge in NJ (and the rest of the nation's) Indian-American population.

In New Jersey, the population grew by 35 percent from 170,000 in 2000 to 230,000 in 2005, according to the latest data. The state's Asian population jumped by about 34 percent - from 480,000 in 2000 to 620,000 in 2005.

The roughly 8.5 million people in New Jersey remain among the nation's most diverse populations, according to the Northjersey.com website.

"If I go to Jersey City, the waterfront, I see many youngsters who work in New York City and it almost looks like Bombay (Mumbai) to me," Vidya Gupta, an Indian American professor of pediatrics at New York Medical College, told the website.

I don't believe there is another state in the US (correct me if I'm wrong) where the actual population of desis exceeds 2 percent. And I believe this is a clue to anti-Indian racism (though not the whole story).

In any case, it's not a precise term but frat boy mentality implies an aggressive, arrogant, hard-partying, athletic, intellectually underdeveloped, lacking in empathy kind of a person. And often racist (again, there are desi and black and other minority participants in the fraternity scene).

Amitabh: so you're making the generalization that white frat boys are racist, etc. Isn't that a tad unfair to them?

Hey-hey!!!!!

Desis are definitely very 'concentrated' in Somerset-Middlesex counties of NJ, so even though the total population may rank 5th, I wouldn't be surprised if the density of desis there ranks 1st, especially in terms of percent of total population

From 2000 census, top 10 counties in the descending order of (sa/total)*100 are :

You are a SA numbers NERD like ME!!!!!! Dipanjan, what do you do for a living that you were able to whip out those numbers so quick? You didn't cite, so were those your own numbers? Here's a press release that was published recently on national growth.

I'm scheming, I'm scheming - I could use a number cruncher like you....

I do software and love numbers and excel too much for my own good. The numbers are from census.gov download section.

Amitabh,

You're probably looking at this thread and laughing

Well, now I am ;) Okay, I'm just kidding.

at what we Americans consider to be high percentages of desis (at least compared to the UK).

Depends on your perspective, I guess. 2% is better than 0%, 10% is better than 2% and so on.....

From the transatlantic point of view, the US will not have a "high percentage of desis" until there are towns/cities whose South Asian populations constitute at least 30% of the total, a South Asian language ends up being the 2nd most widely-spoken tongue in the country, younger non-desis living in these areas are familiar with Hindi films and some of the major actors/actresses, every major nationwide news channel has at least two South Asian anchors, 2nd-Gen desis do not go berserk at the idea of other desis dating white people (and the depiction of such matters is commonplace in the national media & a non-issue from the perspective of the majority white population), and everyone is basically shagging everyone else regardless of their ethnicity.

So I think you guys have a little work to do. Get cracking !

Amitabh says:

"As an aside, I encourage any desi visiting NYC area to stop by Edison/Iselin, specifically the fabled Oak Tree Road...especially on the weekend. Although it's no comparison to my beloved Southall, it is a pretty amazing place...great restaurants, music/video/grocery stores, more jewelry shops than you could ever imagine, Bollywood dance classes, and just great atmosphere overall...I love having it nearby."

Must add honorable mention for the delicious 50 cent samosas they sell at that little indoor food court, the name of which currently escapes me...yummmmmmmmm...

But "stop by" is a little misleading. Heck, it'll take a half hour alone just to find a parking spot!

I just moved in to the Hilltop Apartments a month ago and I hear a lot of police activity and some thing happening when I reach home late in the night. I will dig through and find out what is happening ! It is funny that I see the blog to know whatz happening in my backyard!

Here's just a little peek at Oak Tree Road, from yesterday.

I know this blog dosen't have anything to do with this link below, but by reading the blog i got the distinct feeling that here is a well informed crowd....so as a concerned parent i thought i might ask this group if anyone has heard of similar incidents on Oak Tree road or point me to the right blog [if possible].

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/middlesex/index.ssf?/base/news-2/1161061794241380.xml&coll=1

Thanx