August 30, 2006
A Dosa and a DreamFood
I can’t begin a food post without sharing an experience from a few nights ago. A group of us had dinner at Indus Valley, a reasonably well-regarded desi restaurant at 100th and Broadway in New York. At some point the composer Philip Glass walked in, and one of our group, a big fan, went into a state of beatific darshan that threatened to destabilize our meal. It got worse when Glass and his companion sat at the table next to ours. My fellow diner was finally able to compose himself, give Glass props, and return to getting our eat on.
Suddenly another of my companions let out a piercing yell and pushed back from the table with great speed. Yes, there was a big old cockroach crawling up the tablecloth — not the short dark ones you often see in NYC kitchens, but a tropical-quality beast, two or three inches long (though not the flying kind). A minor tamasha ensued, during which Philip Glass turned to me and said, with an air of wisdom, “Don’t worry, they have very small appetites.”
Cockroaches happen; celebrity sightings happen too. But what was truly shocking was that the macacas brothers running the restaurant did not comp us even a round of drinks or dessert, let alone a meal, in recognition of the disgusting insect experience. I guess it shouldn’t have surprised us, seeing that they were already trying to seat a couple at a nearby two-top while the cockroach hunt was still on, but come on, what the hell kind of restaurant management is that? So, folks, if you go to Indus Valley at 100th and Broadway, watch out for big-ass cockroaches and don’t expect a discount.
Which brings me to the subject at hand. Perhaps in response to a desi dining landscape that, except in a few fortunate neighborhoods and towns, consists of the same old slop doled out from the same buffets, plus a few “nice” places that look fancy but aren’t necessarily up to snuff in the hygiene department, the idea of desi fast food — cheap, standardized and franchised — becomes a more and more compelling alternative.
We’ve mentioned this before, with reference to the Hot Breads bakery chain, but now here is another entrepreneur heading this way, this time from an unlikely starting point in New England:
Yogi Sood sits in front of his restaurant in the food court at the Burlington Mall talking strategy with his son. The conversation is not about recipes or vendors or price points. Their recipes already are great, their vendors steady, their prices fair.
Rather, this debate is about the speed at which they should conquer the world. Yogi, a 57-year-old retired engineer and the founder of Gourmet India, wants to do it quickly. Now. Yesterday.
“Fifty franchises in five years,” he says.
Vishnal Sood, 24, raises an eyebrow. He is deferential to his father but the eyebrow is ominous.
Yogi interprets: “My son thinks I’m a bit ambitious,” he says. Then he laughs.
The Soods’ company, Gourmet India, has franchises in well-selected, semi-upscale or well-trafficked malls in the Boston area. The idea is to make desi food ubiquitous in mall food courts. I would imagine there are other regional chains starting up in different parts of the country on exactly the same premise.
Still, a national chain? “It’s a big leap,” says Harry Balzer, an expert in the eating habits of Americans. “People’s taste changes very slowly.”
Sood is nonplussed. Indian food will be to the ethnic food market what Chinese food became 20 years ago, he says. He looks around the mall’s food court. Some of the heavy hitters of the franchise restaurant business are his neighbors: Pizzeria Regina, Johnny Rockets, Quiznos. “We’re already among the most popular here,” he says.
The article treads the usual ground (with a punning title too lame to repeat here): how the US market for desi food is different from the UK, etc. Still, the question is there and it’s surely worth a lot of money: what are the chances, and what would it take, to make desi food a ubiquitous option in the malls, airports and train stations of America, like pizza and Chinese?
siddhartha on August 30, 2006 01:49 AM in Food · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
kathi rolls.
Add some cheese and ketchup. :)
what are the chances, and what would it take, to make desi food a ubiquitous option in the malls, airports and train stations of America, like pizza and Chinese?
i luv most brown food...but, it doesn't "present" well. to not put a fine point on it, it looks as it was chewed up and regurgitated. also, too spicey for most americans,* which is one reason that punjabi cuisine (tandoori?) is dominant in the USA, not because the food is tastier, but cuz there is less spice and more meat. right?
anyway, for brown food to be as ubiquitous as pizza & chinese, it will have to become what chinese fast food is: chinese themed food which is more american than any regional chinese dish.
* though not enough for me, i always have to request spicey and brown restaurants now, and one place in the new agey small town where i spend the wkds simply refused to crank it up like how i wanted, and the servers and management was brown!
Eh.. I don't know. Food at Chaat Cafe looks pretty good when it comes to your table. Though I'm not sure if it counts as a fast food place or a fancy restaurant. It's got aspects of both.
Dude, wtf are you talking about? Even if you were right about how "brown food" presents (and you're not), you're in the country which invented sloppy joes. Whatever.
Wherever an Udipi Palace has opened in the States it's been wildly successful, and that's South Indian veg. cuisine. I don't know why there aren't more South Indian restaurants out there, and I really wish more of them were non-veg. There are times I would kill for a Chettinad fish fry or chicken '65. From what little I've seen, whenever anyone actually opens up a South Indian place, it's successful.
There I agree with you - and if it uses less oil than Chinese food, it might actually win out over Chinese.
I cannot speak about Gourmet India, but I've had other desi mall food, and it was, frankly, bad. I think the first thing to focus on is making it *good*, and making it *ubiquitous* should be a secondary focus. This might sound trivial, but the fact is that most Indian fast food in India is tasty (though no doubt quite unhealthy), whereas the desi mall food that I have been exposed to simply is not tasty enough to attract people's interest or liking.
z0mg Philip Glass!!! :O
one place...simply refused to crank it up like how i wanted, and the servers and management was brown!
When my little brother was vegan for 9 years, he and his (all white) friends used to go pig out constantly at the Indian buffet near my mom's house. One day one of his friends ordered a dish off the menu and the waiter was like "No." He's all, no really, I'd like to order this dish. "No. Too spicy for you." Dude, I LIKE this dish! "No." (apologetic head waggle) The guy WOULDN'T serve it to him! Ha ha ha ha... But on that tip, I think Indian cuisine (and all the South Indian veg restaurants) definitely appeals to the veggie contingent -- we'd never eaten ANY ethnic food growing up in the midwest, and when bro went vegan he had to suddenly learn to like a lot of things. He says even now he could eat Indian food every day for the rest of his life and be fine.
My little bland palate was recently introduced to parathas for breakfast cooked by a Punjabi mom, with onions and chilis and some other spices, dripping with melted butter -- I'd never had them that way before! SO much better than any I've had at restaurants. I wanted to take a stack home and eat nothing else for a week. I bet I could even make sandwiches with that kind of bread. So I vote for those to go into mall chains to appeal to us whiteys. ;) And you know what? Come to think of it, I had my first Indian food ever at a mall in L.A.! They were handing out little bites of chicken tikka masala on toothpicks and I found it much more appealing than stuff I'd seen and smelled elsewhere. And now I can eat spicier stuff. Small steps, yo.
Razib,
You're right about the meat element, but Punjabi food is often extremely spicy. Maybe it depends on where you go and who is doing the cooking, I guess. But lack of masala isn't usually an issue with Punjabi food -- frequently the opposite ;)
As a point of comparison, Indian food is popular in the UK to the extent of being regarded as the number 1 choice of cuisine by British people (all Brits, not just the desis). Indian restaurants are ubiquitous, and the food is generally a Punjabi/Mughlai hybrid (apart from high-density Gujarati locations and Bangalore-style fast-food places which include South Indian food and the usual Chinese/Indian hybrid). Ironically, most of the "Indian" restaurants in non-desi locations here are actually owned by Bangladeshis ;)
Broadly-speaking, Indian food here is predominantly popular for formal dining or take-outs; it hasn't really taken off as "fast food" although there have been some efforts in this regard. I believe some entrepreurially-minded person is currently attempting a "Tiffin"-style fast-food chain in London, for example.
The strong smell and oiliness of much of the food may indeed have something to do with it. If it wasn't so, er, aromatic and could be eaten with a knife and fork (which is obviously a problem with parathas, rotis, naan etc), then perhaps it would be a different matter.
Typo: should say "entrepreneurially-minded".
Really funny anecdote.
It's interesting to read the comments about food not being spicy enough. I have the opposite problem. Due to a chronic affliction I am barred from eating spicy meals. Honestly I don't miss it much, save for those appetizing mango pickles. All of this actually presents a huge problem when I visit India - at all times I have to ask for 'very mild' and even then it's often too spicy. At least I'm glad I'm not Telugu.
First of all:
Awesome!Second of all:
That is so disappointing. I'm in that nabe a lot and really like Indus Valley.
Third of all:
Once, I was eating at famously-vegetarian Vatan, as a child, back in my vegetarian days, and I bit into a kheema samosa! Two words: not cool.
Sid:
EAT YOUR COCKROACH; KIDS IN INDIA ARE STARVING.
Peace
Indian food in Britain has become mass market because it has become pizza-fied and chop-suey-fied. Chicken Tikka Masala, Curry Sauce, all standardised generic inventions for the British palatte.
It's not all like that, and if you chatted to white Brits, you would be surprised how much they know about Indian food, because lots of them are more adventurous than just that, at least my friends are, and all know what mattar paneer and saag is, for example. Plus London has a much wider variety of Indian restaurants than elsewhere in the country because the Indian community is so diverse, so as well as the typical 'curry house' you have 'authentic' South Indian in Tooting, Punjabi in Southall, Gujarati in Wembley, lots of Keralan restaurants in central London and so on, there is even a Parsi restaurant in Highgate.
Indian food (the standardised fare, heavily influenced by Punjabi staples) is as British as fish and chips and roast beef.
This is the 1st time that I've heard someone complain that desi food is NOT spicy!
btw..even small college towns in US can boast of 3-4 Indian restaurants.
i agree with vivek. if i were a fast food investor, i'd put my money in decent kati rolls, though they'd need to be a bit less oily than the ones in midtown and the village -- which i love, mind you -- to really take off. there's a decent, relatively new (last two years or so), equally oily roti roll place up on 109th and amsterdam.
which makes me think -- we haven't talked about "sepia destiny" in a while. how about licensing the sepia trade dress for a fast food place? kinda like a desi taco bell, without the stereotyped imagery that episodically appears in their marketing. and then amardeep can finally start his column -- "at lunch at the sepia snack bar."
not cool at all! but what a missed opportunity. if it had been mcdonald's, rather than vatan, you could have made a killing, but even from vatan you could have
extorted a few bucksobtained appropriate compensation for your emotional distress. and by now the statute of limitations has probably run....Honey, the roaches down here are so big they have social security numbers. You sure you want to visit with Lolis?
One or two big ones are not a hygiene issue at all, actually, as they are "palmetto" bugs that hang out in moist areas. The ones you have to watch out for and report are the little ones - that means the big ones are reproducing and it's time for Hazmat Suits and a big ol' Roach Bomb. Don't call the health board on the poor Indus Valley bruthas just yet.
Says the one who is deathly scared of roaches, lives in a town full of them and now hands out advice on how to handle the ugly critters.
Ironically, if you want good desi fast food, at least south indian food, one of the places I highly recommend is your local temple. There's nothing like a meal made out of sambar chadam, puliyodhare (tamarind rice), and thair chadam (yogurt rice) that costs a grand total of $3.00. If the temples have figured it out, I'm sure some entrepeneureal spirit out there can market it. I'm not sure why the idea of desi fast food hasn't caught on, especially the veggie dishes. All those dishes, regardless of whether north or south indian, are conducive to being made in large quantities that can easily be reheated. Just makes economic sense, to me.
why is Boston such an unlikely place? Actually if it is then unlikelier the better because nothing has happend from NY or LA.
why the hell were you up in Harlem anyway? serves you right.
?? 100th and Broadway is the Upper West Side! And what's wrong with Harlem anyway? They have some amazing restaurants there.
I've been to Indus Valley... very mediocre fare. Its just another restaurant peddling faux desi food.
Is there anywhere I can get puliogre in NYC?
Is there anywhere I can get puliogre in NYC?
Ganesha Temple, Queens.
There is a restaurant at the food court in the Santa Monica Mall in California (the one that has an entrance at one end of 3rd Street Promenade) that used to/still makes Curry Bowls. They used to have lines on those days because people would find the Basmati Rice with a curry of your choice combo very easy to eat and enjoy. For every desi person, there were about 3 non desis waiting in line for the 'chawal murg' bowl. Smart
Sriram (#19):
TOTALLY! Actually often I go to temples just for the canteen...
Puliogre in da USA (#23):
There's a cluster of South Indian restaurants around 29th and Lexington (including the only non-veg South Indian place I've ever seen in the US) where you're sure to find some.
On that note, does anyone know where to find good non-veg South Indian?
And if they don't have it, there's a little South Indian place two doors down where you might find it.
Before reading reviews for restaurants, I check up on the inspection records for the establishment first. Trust me, you'll want to. I checked up on Indus Valley from the restaurant inspection information for NYC, and it says
I personally use the Florida DPBR page to access such information. For example, a recent check on a supposedly fantastic Indian resturant here came up with stuff like this:
tilotamma,
you make a good point. sometimes the unlikely place of origin becomes an asset. as for why boston is "unlikely," it's simply because the desi community in that region is very scattered. there's no central place like devon ave or edison or jackson heights or that town in orange county (i forget which one now. santa ana?)
"achat,"
why the hell should i answer such idiocy? oh, because even the trolls are useful sometimes in that they pose questions that some readers would like to have elucidated but were always afraid to ask. in that spirit of education and service, i draw your attention to dr gangolphus's comment:
not harlem by any stretch. moreover, would you like to specify what your problem is with harlem? i live in harlem. wanna come visit? i'll show you around, if you dare.
this concludes this morning's troll education segment. i made my karma points, now i can go back to selling crack and robbing convenience stores.
" i made my karma points,"
Yeah, but apparently you haven't paid for your ancestor's past COLLECTIVE KARMA (still fuming over that bogus theory). ;-)
First of all, OMyGanesha--Philip Glass!!
On a trip to Madras I once encountered a Dosa King a free standing vending machine that made masala dosas on the spot. If anyone knows where to find one, Ill fritter away my dowry and make room in my study for it : )
Yes, it would be great to cop a katti roll or a samosa w/o having to make a trip to a little India type place but I doubt the broader appeal of Indian curries. Even the voice of love has to admit that brown food is typically, and boringly, *brown-hued*. Other than the odd green pea or a cilantro garnish, everything looks the same.
Has anyone been in the strange position where a chance-met acquaintance developed an instant craving for Indian food on seeing you? Happened to me--hehe
I'm not sure where you are, but I can tell you in the DC area there are none that I know of.
On that note, does anyone know where to find good non-veg South Indian?
Toronto :)
In this area I'm not sure. I went to Andhra Palace in Edison? a while back, and they had some good (but very hot!) fare.
I swear, i meant to say "Chennai." Chennai, not Madras.
Oh. In Jersey City (on Newark Avenue) theres a place called Baba Hut run by a guy from Hyderabad, he has lots of South Indian non-veg items. He'll even cater. PATH ride over.
fantastic. would be a great premise for a slightly off-kilter short story. write it, and i'll be happy to help edit and we can post it.
Siddhartha,
strange you should say that :)
[going to S's site now]
When I'm in Bangalore I make it a point to eat at least two rava idli every day. Invariably, I pine for them the moment I leave. Mavalli Tiffin Rooms rocks the culinary casbah! What I wouldn't do for a MTR venue in the U.S.! (Sadly, the packaged MTR rava idli mix is about as palatable as tennis balls.)
I feel like there is serious appeal in easily portable, relatively healthy, "presentable", desilicious items like rava idli, iddiappam and certain chaat concoctions. The chic industrial aesthetic / reusable (and thus environmentally friendly) aspect of tiffin containers doesn't seem to have been capitalized on quite yet (perhaps because of the collective scaring among second generation desis who endured so many family road trips featuring tamarind rice filled tiffin containers, when what you really wanted was Popeye's...?).
Plus, the last time I was at Brueggers Bagels I noted that they've managed to make the otherwise quotidian act of boiling of dough into a form of entertainment (as aided by large glass windows that allow customers to peer into the bagel making area), so I think the art of ek metre chai, would be at least as compelling to watch. Sort of like watching pizza dough being tossed, only with the added allure of potentially scalded appendages.
I don't know that I'd be happy to see Indian items enter the market a la Taco Bell, but something akin to Wagamamas - which, according to the website, was inspired by Japanese ramen bars - would be nice. And I do think the stateside popularity of tapas and dim sum and sushi and meze seems to bode weill for tiffin-style food.
So that said, where all my epicurean hipster desi investors at ?!
[*Philip 'Passages' Glass in the flesh? Dang, bro...]
A great variation on this theme was a cartoon that showed an Indian mom with her 2 little kids seated at the dining table, with the kids staring reluctantly at their veggies. The caption said something like - Go on, eat your veggies. Think of the millions of Americans living on junk food.
When I'm in Chennai I make it a point to visit Sharavana Bhavan (aka, heaven). The chain has spread stateside, but it's just not the same.
Lots of vegetarians like frequenting the South Indian restaurants because of the rich variety in vegetarian dishes offered in most South Indian restaurants. I think the vegan non desi Americans are a big market and the South Indian restaurants can really target this market. They also tend to be more cosmopolitan on average and thus more likely to try out Indian food.
I never really ate any South Indian food till I went to a South Indian restaurant with some vegetarians. Of course I was embarrassed by the fact that they knew more than me and they ordered some real stuff while I ended up sheepishly ordering cholla batura and samosay. After being exposed for my uncouthness and savagery, I have now learnt to enjoy the charms of a good vegetarian South Indian cuisine ;)
*shiver*, I just checked -rechecked my desk and dusted myself off after reading that. Whats even funnier is that you expected to be comp at a desi place.
That place is little and cheap also. The best in Indian sq for Dosas.
Indian food is known for its spicyness and non-desis always complain about how their digestive system doesnt have the capacity to handle it.
I don't know any "white" or non-desi person who doesn't like Indian food. The market exists, in spades. A good dosa chain could be very successful here, as long as it doesn't follow the vile and disgusting path of the "Hamptons Chutney Company" or whatever it's called (truly gross). Dosas would be great for people timidly dipping their toe (what an image) into "spicy," since the dosa itself is mild and they can control how much flavor to add via chutneys.
I really don't understand this perception that "Americans" can't handle spice. Thai food is popular. Mexican food is popular. Yes, a lot of places dumb it down for cowardly tongues, but plenty offer the real deal, at least in major cities where peoples' palates are more educated.
And when are you gonna make that food tab? Huh?
Toronto is pretty awesome, you can get Indian style Hakka Chinese food cooked by actual ethnic Chinese people from India at multiple different restaurants. I didn't even know there were ethnic Chinese in India, till I visited Toronto. :)
Indeed! Sad, no?
I don't know how many of you have ever been to Grand Sweets in Chennai, but when they hand out free samples of tamarind rice, yoghurt rice, or whatever other delicious items they're handing out for free, they do it in bowls made of some sort of pressed leaf - palm frond? If fast-food varieties of South Asian food do indeed become ubiquitous in the States, I hope someone also decides to serve it in this environmentally friendly (and probably dirt-cheap) packaging as far as possible...
HA! Patrons might then opt to sign a disclaimer for the added pleasure of drinking from a tumbler-davara...
Surprised and sorry to read this. I looove Hampton Chutney Company. What's not to like? They also dish out the regular potato dosas for those who like their meals traditional style. Meanwhile, the rest of the world can gorge on dosa with feta cheese and olives and the myriad other concoctions. In fact, I'm hoping to see more white Americans jump on the bandwagon and do for biryani etc. what HCC has done for the dosa.
Gautham - may I ask where in the US you live?
Toronto is pretty awesome, you can get Indian style Hakka Chinese food cooked by actual ethnic Chinese people from India at multiple different restaurants. I didn't even know there were ethnic Chinese in India, till I visited Toronto. :)
Yeah dude. There's one Hakka Chinese place run by an Indian-Chinese guy from Kolkata who can speak Bengali and Hindi. There's lots of Sri Lankan Tamil non-vegetarian places that serve exquiste Chettinad food. I even went to an Indo-Kenyan place run by guys who immigrated from Kenya. And then theres Persian, Afghani... - and just about every other one of the *200* ethnic groups has some sort of culinary representation. I'm from NYC, went to school there. But I'm sorry, there's simply no culinary comparison with Toronto. Daniel, Union Square Cafe... please!
Me, too. My friend took her Chennai-based mother- and father-in-law, who were skeptical at first, and they ABSOLUTELY loved it. Thought the dosas were perfectly made and the fillings were divine. They went back several times while they were in NYC.
Maybe their spinach-and-feta dosas are good; I didn't try one. If I want a spinach-and-feta crepe I'll go to a crepe place. If I go to a dosa place I want a fresh, hot dosa with at least two kinds of good chutney included, one of which should be fresh coconut. I am spoiled.
I really don't understand this perception that "Americans" can't handle spice
LMAO! You cant be serious! I can say this for a fact: White Americans cannot handle spicy food, PERIOD ;)
Of course there are some exceptions, but generally it is pretty true that Americans cannot handle spicy food.
BTW, Thai food is not spicy, my American sista!
check out this story while we are on the topic of Indian food --
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5638057
The author's makes some vague claims - we started eating out as a nation since partition??
someone explain that to me.
AMD,
I still don't get it. I spent a lot of time eating my way through Malaysia when I was younger, and while the food there was spicier than in the US, it wasn't the "oh my god I'm going to die" experience some seem to expect. It's true my food experience in India was limited to Trivandrum, and it wasn't very spicy. The Thai food I ate in Malaysia and Thailand was a lot hotter. I know some Indian food can get extremely hot, but I didn't encounter that genius where I lived.
I have been to some awful "ethnic" restaurants outside of San Francisco (where I lived for 11 years) and New York (where I live now), and it's true they take all the spice out. Come to think of it, even NY has had sucky Thai places for a long time. But right now I live in Hell's Kitchen, where there are many good ones, such as Pam Thai on 47th street.
Thinking about this reminds me I am spoiled in the restaurant department. In the early 90's I considered moving from San Francisco to Portland, OR, but decided against it only because the food there wasn't as good (at the time - I hope it's improved). I shouldn't extrapolate my food-city experiences to the rest of the US. Since my friends also live in the same cities, their tastes run similarly. I live an insular life.
Also, my good pal Ian, who is of Scottish descent, eats whole jalapenos and drinks hot sauce. He may skew my sample.
Nina - Maybe it was just a bad day or something, or maybe they've deteriorated since they first opened down in Soho. But their dosas are authentic. I know that the owner of HCC has a guru and all that and spent 14 years of his youth in India in an ashram. He even waddles his head like an Indian. If they're pre-cooking their dosas then that's definitely a very bad thing, but I ate there 2 times and mine were crispy. I'm particular about that and even in Indian restaurants I take care to tell them to make my dosa extra-crispy otherwise they turn out like crepes. As for bland chutney - I love it, so for sure those who're looking for spice will be disappointed.
I ate there a few years back, just when they had first opened and it was pretty mediocre. They cooked mine fresh, but it wasn't crispy, and the filling was bland as heck. I also found most of their fusion dosas to be poorly conceived - I have no objection to the idea, but this was "put chicken and suntried tomatoes in!" without thinking of what tastes would work well in a dosa. Basically, it felt like a poor creperie.
cinnamon is a spice.
cardamom is a spice.
cloves are a spice.
mace is a spice.
allspice is a spice.
black pepper is a spice.
white pepper is a spice.
you;ve probably tasted all of the above in ye olde pumpkin pie.
spices add flavor - not necessarily heat.
peppers and their derivatives add heat. They're a wedge in the spice pantheon.
You have been informed. Reach out and preach to the unwashed masses.
Gautham (#47):
I'm as brown as they come, and I. Am. A. Wuss. Yet I keep going back to the Punjabi Dhaba for more!
(#49):
My mouth has been watering since I started thinking about it...
Nina P. (#50):
That's the thing though - I don't think they are banana leaves. But since my mouth is watering and I'm going to Chennai this weekend, I'll try to check it out and get back.
Please help: where can I get some good English in Chennai.
Very bland, ok, I need it very bland. And don't worry, I can handle it...
Please help: where can I get some good English in Chennai.
Taj Chola Hotel. Full-on "English" breakfast :)
I really don't understand this perception that "Americans" can't handle spice
Americans can definitely handle spice, they can't handle anything new. I've brought hummus and couscous - bland as anything - to potlucks at work and people just gaze in curiosity at that. Meanwhile, there's a Filipino rice and chicken dish that is depleted in minutes. I made a pasta dish with a little bit of red pepper flakes and got only one comment about the 'kick,' others ate it up without a fuss. So, it depends.
I just had my first kati roll recently and loved it! It's the next falafel! But, wait.. I live in the suburbs. We don't even get falafels here! (just refrigerated section at Whole Foods).
But, I liked what someone said -- add cheese and ketchup and people will eat it.
Sing it, hairy_D!
Essactly. Siddhartha can handle spice, Amardeep can handle spice, Ennis can handle spice...don't know what kind of Merkins y'all are hanging out with...
He's a blue-eyed American. As for mediocre - the indian restaurants of the same level are way below mediocre, bordering on horrendous. Except for one I ate in in L.A. (apparently closed now)which was better than anything I've ever experienced in India or anywhere in the world.
Anyway, I'm definitely in the bland camp so perhaps that's why I loved HCC. If Indian food is to go mainstream, they need to cut the spice (and grease) and HCC is a good start.
I propose a task-force meetup at Dosa Hut (Lexington @ 27th) to discuss this important issue.
kobayashi, i'm not sure there is such a thing in chennai or anywhere else. i thought that was half the point of empire -- the quest for better food....
The only good dosa place, I think, in Curry Hill is Saravanaas.
Indian food definitely lends itself to fast food -- just see the abundance of street vendors in India. I think the reason it hasn't caught on in the US is that people think of Indian food as an exotic treat, not a quick bite. While I don't remember seeing this in London, I bet somewhere there they've got Indian food stands just like the falafel/shwarma stands in Amsterdam.
where can I get some good English
kobayashi, i'm not sure there is such a thing in chennai or anywhere else. i thought that was half the point of empire -- the quest for better food....
It was a jokey ref, of course.
But seriously, good English does exist. Against all odds. Have you heard of the Fat Duck? And I bet they can make it extra bland if you want...
oh wait till they start reproducing. i lived in a roach infested apartment once. they thrive in thedark. i would switch on the lights and the little creepers would be everywhere. i didnt want to use chemicals in the kitchen so got those sticky papers. sometimes i would get lucky and catch a female with the egg sac hanging down its butt. in one case she dropped the sac and ran free. but the sac popped open and it was very satifying to see the little critters all stuck on there. the key is getting the females. each one of them is worth twenty. i did try to be humane about killing them so i would fold the paper and whack it with all my might. hopefully it went to goo painlessly. the think about roaches is, they are everywhere. they were inside the oven door. i found out when i opened the door and saw a whole stream of them flow out skittering all over the floor before diving into the nearest crevices. i took to putting my mugs upside down and washing everything twice before cooking. even so, anything that brushed against me, it would set my teeth on edge. i had a vision of being devoured at night by the critters. remember the scene in that movie where the bugs crawl out of this guy's eye socket. yea. that.
i gave in my notice around then.
Oh, wow. Now I know Morningside Heights has changed since my undergrad days. Not so long ago, kiddies, there was not a bit of desi food to be seen above 100th and Broadway... and we had to go to 98th to find a taco truck! Shocking, shocking, I know...
English people have become so acclimatised to Indian food that they frequently eat even hotter khaana than most of us can handle. Some of the more boisterous types have competitions with each other in Indian restaurants where they eat something called "phaal", which is a type of thermonuclear-grade hot curry.
I haven't seen any here in London for a very long time. A few years ago there used to be roadside pav-bhaji stands on Ealing Road in Wembley (North London -- big Gujarati area although a lot of South Indians also live there these days) but I believe they were shut down due to health-hazard concerns (that street has a lot of traffic).
Speaking of Wembley, I recently visited an excellent restaurant there called Tulsi. It has an unusually extensive dosa menu, ie:
Sada Dosa, Butter Sada Dosa, Cheese Sada Dosa, Masala Dosa, Butter Masala Dosa, Spring Masala Dosa, Paper Sada Dosa, Butter Paper Sada Dosa, Paper Masala Dosa, Butter Paper Masala Dosa, Palak Sada Dosa, Butter Palak Sada Dosa, Butter Palak Masala Dosa, Mysore Sada Dosa, Butter Mysore Sada Dosa, Mysore Masala Dosa, Butter Mysore Masala Dosa, Cheese Mysore Masala, Rava Sada Dosa, Butter Rava Sada Dosa, Cheese Rava Sada Dosa, Onion Rava Dosa, Butter Onion Rava Dosa, Cheese Onion Rava Dosa, Rava Masala Dosa, Butter Rava Masala Dosa, Cheese Rava Masala Dosa, Onion Rava Masala Dosa, Butter Onion Rava Masala.....
Along with fusion-style "Special Dosas": Paneer Manchurian Rava Dosa, Paneer Manchurian Sada Dosa, Paneer Sezwan Rava Dosa, Paneer Sezwan Sada Dosa, Sezwan Noddles Dosa.
I'd never seen anything like this, at least not in the UK. Staggering amount of choice.
extra bland? dreamy. will check out the fat duck next time in england, though they do seem a bit uptight -- did you read their "terms and conditions"? (er, what restaurant has terms and conditions for their website??) kobayashi, you and i have now both violated clause 3.1.6:
and clause 3.1.7:
I can think of 5 Indian restaurants between 100th and 120th. Of which the maligned Indus Valley (blaberus aside) actually has the best food.
Hairy_D,
I'm sure there was an MTV-produced comedy film a few years ago about this guy and his apartment which was infested with talking cockroaches which were all his buddies. "Mike's Place" or something like that.....
Well, someone made the mistake of telling them they were the best restaurant in the world.
"The Fat Duck...topped a list of the world's 50 best restaurants which was unveiled in London last night." (link)
Shoot, I'd be uptight too. There's nowhere to go but down.
Inexpensive: Saravanaas, Kati Roll Company
Moderately Priced: Chinese Mirch
Expensive: Tamarind, Bukhara
Avoid: Bombay Talkie
(All of these are in Manhattan, BTW)
Chhola and Dawat are really good for Non-veg but they are expensive. A cute little new place YUVA has the best variety of chutneys. Baluchis is for lunch and ofcourse there is kathi rolls. One more thing you should do is check out platters
Stay away from Tabla (so overrated!)and Ada if you dont like fusion
You can check out cholas also, on 59th I think.
indian bread factory in manhattan - i htink bleeker st. - serves spanking hot parathas. they dont give too much raita though... but great snack and not oily at all.
Wegeterian: Watan (31st and 3rd, or thereabouts).
And I also find Cafe Spice (a chain, but a realy good chain) worthy of respect. Though they rarely give you enough rice. Very tasty food though. Try the one just South of Union Square, 10th st or 8th st something like that.
Word. Don't fuck with Baluchis. If you get there one micro-second after 3pm, they will happily serve you, but the bill will be double what you were expecting.
Take it from someone who knows.
But otherwise, yes, they're pretty good value for lunch.
everytime i read a reference to the place, i am reminded of "i am rajeev kumar from vemmblee", and it cracks me up.
Hairy_D Cockroachwalla,
Are you referring to Sanjeev Kumar (ie. Sanjeev Bhaskar) from "The Kumars at Number 42" ?
dooh...
yes of course Jai... I knew it rang a little off... "I am minnie driver from hollywood". and our man simpers and says, "I am sanjeev kumar from vemmbleee". kills me everytime.
Gautham - I like Dosa Hut, and its neighbors Madras Mahal and Pongal. All South Indian, vegetarian, kosher. As others have mentioned, Saravanaas is good too. But the best dosas I've had here were at Dosa Hut. If your stay includes a weekday, try the lunch buffet.
Does anyone know if the Dosa Cart Guy is still around? The last few times I looked for him in Washington Square Park he was nowhere to be found.
The most recent season of The Kumars just finished on the BBC here a few weeks ago, so hopefully you guys should be picking it up in the States sometime soon. Watch out for Felicity Kendell (Shashi Kapoor's sister-in-law -- she used to be in a famous 70s British sitcom called The Good Life) cheerfully reverting back to desi mode (she grew up in India) and bobbling her head from side to side instinctively while chatting away in Hindi.
******************
Everytime I hear something about "bland English food", I think of the famous sketch from Goodness Gracious Me and Kulwinder Ghir cockily saying to the waiter "Vat's the blaaaandest thing on the menu ?".
*sigh* I thought I was making a very pointed reference...
Apologies, my previous post was addressed to Hairy_D the Cockroach Guy.
You're right about the meat element, but Punjabi food is often extremely spicy. Maybe it depends on where you go and who is doing the cooking, I guess.
exactly. living in the punjabi-centric UK perhaps you don't know full range of american indian spicey food. i think it is a mistake to lump all brown cuisines into a generic "spicey" category. my saying punjabi food is "less spicey" is not an assertion of superior or inferior, but simply one of average differences between regional cuisines. 8=)
Jai,
In Zadie Smith's White Teeth, I recall British diners ordering chicken "julfreezi" with "chips" in a 1970s restaurant in London's theater district. Do Englishmen fire up a side of fries to compliment their curries?
Razib,
Before someone on SM decides to stalk me any further and single me out as a target for some kind of misbegotten "cuisine-obsession" jihad just because I have mentioned the matter a few times, can I just clarify that I am basing my comments purely on Punjabi food in the United Kingdom, which is obviously influenced by the local cold climate and the somewhat-unrepresentative background & combination of the chefs involved. Mentioning that Punjabi food here can be very spicy does not automatically imply an unspoken caveat of such cuisine being more appetising than its less spicy cousins from other parts of the subcontinent, even though it may not be representative of Punjabi food back in India or in other parts of the world, and of course we know that in India and internationally there is an embedded bias towards spicy food (and a prejudice towards blander food) which many people are extremely sensitive about.
And, of course, the fact that Punjabi food may often be closer in taste and composition to Iranian or Mughlai cuisine does not mean that it is not actually Indian or that any statements asserting this fact are an attempt to insinuate that Punjabi food is somehow inherently less Indian than food from other parts of the subcontinent.
Innit ?
Hairy_D,
Hijack the Latin Lover/Colombian Drug Baron look if you can manage to pull it off and that might help to de-Apufy their perspective of you ;)
Desitude,
Fries, omelettes etc are available in "Indian" restaurants which are in an area where there aren't many South Asians (some restaurants in high-density desi locations also have these options although they're usually tucked in the back of the menu, along with "Vegetarian Pizzas with Special Masala Sauce" etc).
I don't think the average 21st-Century Englishmen is so uncouth that he order wildly-incompatible "traditional" British food to supplement the more typical Indian fare. They do drink beer with their desi cuisine a lot though, although these days that frequently involves Cobra, Kingfisher etc.
I agree. Saravanaas is d-lish, and Bombay Talkie is ridiculously expensive for the quality of food.
I also used to like Chennai Gardens (run by a Maharashtran) but since discovering Saravanaas, I've never been back.
I don't think the average 21st-Century Englishmen is so uncouth that he order wildly-incompatible "traditional" British food to supplement the more typical Indian fare. They do drink beer with their desi cuisine a lot though, although these days that frequently involves Cobra, Kingfisher etc.
Oh, I thought it might be worth a try. Second silly question: Do you consider yourself an Englishman? Or does that term refer to whites only? If so, how do Asians categorize themselves in a national context, for example, when travelling overseas? Britishers?
I've had the opposite experience. I'll ask for it hot and the server will look at me, eyes narrowing, corners of his mouth turning up slightly. What's delivered is often so spiced that it has become red in color. There's some kind of code that if a brownie customer asks for it hot, he must mean super hot. After experiencing this phenomenon in desi restaurants repeatedly, I've learned to ask for it "Hot but not too hot" or "hot but don't kill me, ok?"
Here's the other phenomenon that's interesting. If I go to an indian restaurant, they'll almost always seat me up front or better, at the window. My guess is that by putting me in the window seat, they hope to get more business from passers by who see a brownie eating the food as a stamp of approval. I found this more prevalent in NYC, or other places with lots of foot traffic.
Anybody else experience this?
just a side note... serving frites with the meal is common in french bistros... not that i've ever been in europe... but once, when dining at a local restaurant (bistro tournesol on dupont street), i was so informed by the waiter.
segue... the reason i landed at bistro tournesol was because i'd heard good things of the indian rice factory on dupont street and i went over. the maitre d' ignored me. i asked for a menu while waiting and he pointed me to the bar where there were some resting on the counter.. i tried to sound him by making chit chat and he wouldnt look me in the eye. the whole affair was so lackadaisical.. i kind f lost it. stepped out. luckily there was bistro tournesol next door. french restaurant. i was a little underdressed (sandals), but no probs... and i had a fabulous meal.
my point... a restaurant is more than food. in order for a chain to be successful there is more than customer tastes to be considered - customer service is a critical consideration. the biggest gap i see in most indian restaurants is really shabby service. i have a feeling all the ny restaurants pointed to above are the pick-up-at-counter types. In some places i've had these guys be so chummy, they're asking about my antecedents, my profession. paincho*. i want a good meal, clean cutlery and prompt service. i'm not prowling restaurants loogking to find some long lost distant cousin. of note... in toronto Little India (hi neha) is exceptional although i'm sorry they stopped making dosais. The guys there are genuinely considerate.
As I side note, I think this thread illustrates perfectly that the best way to a desi's heart is through his/her stomach. I love it.
tell that to the atheist. he seems to have come up short in his romantic forays into the tundra of canadduh.
me... thank you very much for your advice but no confusion here. i wear a nehru cap and shoes with curly toes whereever i go, just to stress the point home.
What I wouldn't do for a Gol Gappa (Pani Puri) cart randomly on a street in Manhattan....
*sigh*
And, of course, the fact that Punjabi food may often be closer in taste and composition to Iranian or Mughlai cuisine does not mean that it is not actually Indian or that any statements asserting this fact are an attempt to insinuate that Punjabi food is somehow inherently less Indian than food from other parts of the subcontinent.
Now not only do the Punjabis look like Iranians, they also eat like them!
Paging Jai's detractors ;)
I am of course just kidding. I dont think Jai has to drop all these caveats. Most of us who have been coming to SM for a while know that Jai is not some closet racist.
Anyone know of good Desi restaurants (preferably south Indian) in Chicago , close to the loop and accessible by train?
BTW, here's a tale...
1. buddy's wife is seriously pregnant and hungry
2. buddy and wife head to desi place on Melrose
3. DPOM refuses to serve a la carte due to some timing stuff.
4. b & w go to parking lot and order takeout
5. DPoM throws in extra naan as takeout special
6. b goes in to pick up the food.
7. DPOM guy is open-mouthed
8. Tug-of-war ensues over naan-in-silverfoil
thats why they always recommend sitting outside and enjoying the "nice weather". I should be paid commission for marketing!
my post was obviously a joke in case the humorless show up 8=) i would be insulted, offended even, if any compared it to a serious comment.
WORD! with a bhaiyaa sittin atop a stool in chokri style chabbaying paan. I want pao-bhaji now
I have had some amazing meals going and coming from JFK at Tandoori Hut in Richmond Hills, Queens. The place is rife with taxiwallahs, 1st generation desi famlies and intrepid EU tourists (wah?). Even though the menue is northern, the preparations are light and fresh. i.e, neither murky, swimming in stale oil, and uniformly brown. In fact, the food is made to oder to be prepared to wait a good while--like at home when the magic fairies aren't on duty. DIshes to try are kati kebab, basic dal tarka and anything made with okra. The nan are beautiful, freshly made in a tandoor and the pickle is homemade, garlic, lime and mango.
FYI: Sometimes the cook goes on holiday. At those times the food reverts to basic northern indian restaurant fare: gut bombs.
I've tried the kati places in the village and the parathas are like carpets--in the case of one place, pre-made carpets. Yuck. Nothing compares to Badshah's, across the street from New Market, in Kolkata. Small, light, flaky parathas, with or without egg, moist chicken kebab and loads of chopped fresh onion and lanka. Badshah's any day over Nizam or Amber, although Nizam and Amber over kati places in the village.
There is the rise of indian fusion, which allows the food to be paired well with wine. In NYC, my favorite is a small east village place called raga. And the price is right too.
but if you're oppossed to cultural genocide, don't bother.
We have a dizzzying array of homogenized Indian joints in NYC. South Indian places that don't do dosa/idlis don't survive for some reason. As a pakka non-veg this is unfortunate for me.
Amma- 51st 2nd/3rd ...I'm told the food went downhill since the original chef(s) left.
My fave place was Bombay Gardens in Jackson Heights opened by a sardar from Bombay, more foodie than businessman, he served up insanely good Hyderbadi dishes. Best place in the hood, sadly closed.
I'd love to know where to get a sakkath Hyderbadi biryani now.
Asaivam on Lex used to serve Chettinad cuisine but also closed.
Surya and Mainland on Bleecker used to do interesting authentic "regional" non-veg dishes, both have retracted into what passes for "north indian" cuisine, read chicken tikka masala.
When I got a real north indian craving I go Afghani--I like Khyber Pass on St. Marks alot.
Banjara a hop away from the East 6th Street chop-shops has dishes from Rajastan to Goa that you rarely see in Indian restaurants. Prepared to be edumacated on Bharat's culinary diversity.
Indi-Chini Bhai-Bhai:
All the ones in Manhattan have disappointed but Tangra Masala in Sunnyside is still off the hook.