This is not surprising. I'm sure this is how most Americans view Indians and arranged marriage. They're just usually smart enough not to talk about it in front of other Indians.

On a related note, my parents are currently seeking a fair, tall, thin girl that makes excellent masala dosa and is healthy enough to crank out sons at rapid fire. Those interested, please send picture, biodata, income information, caste certificate, college diploma, board exam results, and at least three independent references.

As for why the bride wasn’t smiling: uncomfortable outfit? Awkward hair? Cultural expectation?

It's just protocol isnt it? The lady is supposed to look sad, and the man must look mature and responsible and stoical, all the while bursting with excitement inside at the hours count down to the peace of the hotel room where they can banish the masses of aunty-dom and uncle-dom and ravish one another.

At least that is what my friend-girls tell me.

On the other hand, it could be just to confuse and trick white dudes in the vicinity just for the hell of it.

Hmmm. Something that I noticed in my first couple of years in Canada was that at most parties/dinners, I would get the "are you going to have an arranged marriage" question at least once in the course of the evening - still happens sometimes.

argh. not surprising, since it was overheard at a drum circle. i should note that i am a percussionist, and specialize in the drums of the middle east (at least as much as i can i guess) and i stay the hell away from those drum circles. THE HELL AWAY.......i am trying to change my perspective (macaca!) but it still makes me mad as all get out.

most of the weddings I have been to both the bride and groom look bored, not sad...

I think ceremonies should be shorter (cliff notes versions?) and maybe explained better to non-sanskrit speakers :P

As for why the bride wasn’t smiling: uncomfortable outfit? Awkward hair? Cultural expectation?

*grinning* my other half refrains from having the obligatory wedding pic on his desk at work because I look like I'm ready to kill someone in all of our wedding pics. The reason? No, not the outfit (though all told, the sari & acoutrements added a good 20 pounds to my frame), not the hair (the stylist did a damn good job making sure it felt right, even with the tikli), and definitely not cultural expectation (other half's desi by association, not birth or upbringing.)

No, it was because the damn photographers were more like paparazzi, and would stop the ceremony just to get a cool, posed shot. I finally explained to them that they were fired if I didn't get candid action shots.

One of the things that strikes me, and I recognize I'm making a huge assumption about the Intstructor's political beliefs based on his activities and manners of speaking, but it just continues to point out that in America, those who consider themselves liberal are not necessarily any more enlightened about other cultures. It reminds me of the infamous Hillary and Biden comments.

The 12-year-old comment is &($#@ up though.

To most Americans, all other cultures are mysteries, even European countries, all the more so for Asian countries. The US is a mass culture exporter, much to the detriment of us ghora understanding other people.

Thank you Amardeep! It's frustrating when you have to repeatedly explain to people the difference between "arranged" and "forced". Then again, to be fair, a lot of people in India believe all "love marriages" end in divorce.

As far as the age of the bride is concerned, of course this is limited to my personal observation, women both in America and India seem to get married around the same age while men seem to get married earlier around here. I've seen data for age at first marriage in the US, does anyone have recent data on the same in India?

I'll say it again, we need to start incorporating the term "self-arranged"... ;)

As to the not smiling part, if you're wearing a 10 lb. dupatta with gold-wire embroidery that scratches like a briar bush if you so much as blink... well you'd not be smiling either.

An arranged marriage may not be forced but it's no less ghastly. The majority of such marriages are between two largely incompatible people.

there was a time i would get all defensive - "actually... things are changing. no... of course not". like tpgeek above - i keep shut... unless they tread on me. then the right attitude to take is that the guy insulted my parents... really... it's a powerful mental picture to get medieval.

"oh, so you are going back to india to find a girl" - from obnoxious know-it-all in leisure suit.

"so, do your parents know about this?" - from 'best friend' of girl i was dating.

"are your parents planning to live with you later?" - from another 'best friend' of girl.

"are you a canadian citizen" -from a potential 'get-into-relationship' person.

"you're going to find a girl in india right. I hear indian girls are all virgins before they're married", etc. etc.

and all this is based on something theyve read in a book, or seen on tv, or for heck;s sake heard as a rant from some indic person.

listen!! if you have nothing positive to say about indic folk, keep your jalebihole SHUT and help me procreate. this isnt polite chitchat it's intended to put you on the backfoot and have you disavow your indicity. there is no need to defend or illuminate - tpgeek had the right idea.

Hairy D, if you're offended by a comment, it's better to say something than not. This festering medieval hatred approach is not really healthy.

BTW When you say "help me procreate," what are you talking about?

"An arranged marriage may not be forced but it's no less ghastly. The majority of such marriages are between two largely incompatible people."

Exactly. It is my opinion that this practice should be dismantled, anyone who practices or pushes it on their children, in my most humble, quasi-informed, data-less, unscholastic view, should be held accountable for a crime against humanity.

I'll say it again, we need to start incorporating the term "self-arranged"... ;)

Love it. Or we can go with "divinely arranged" as Mitali Perkins recently celebrated on her blog.

Great post.
Two questions I usually get related to Indian weddings are:

a) Are they all arranged?
b) Are they like the one in Monsoon Wedding?

this isnt polite chitchat it's intended to put you on the backfoot and have you disavow your indicity.

Quite often I get the impression that people do not realize I might be offended, or do realize but have some morbid fascination with Indian weddings and just can't control themselves.

Hairy D, if you're offended by a comment, it's better to say something than not. This festering medieval hatred approach is not really healthy. BTW When you say "help me procreate," what are you talking about?

the keep quiet was directed at all the SM commenters who've lamented their personal relationships or experiences with indians on this forum. in statistical terms, these indic representatives are probably the "focus group" to learn about all things indian for their respective communities . recall all the times you've heard, "i've heard from my eendian friend joti that you guys etc.".

So I am requesting SM community's help in projecting a postivie image of where we come from - so for please please please.. i do not need to go on the defensive on a date. it's not a good conversation piece.

"Look sad! Indian bride never smiles! You'll ruin the bloody video!" - Bend it Like Beckham

What the heck do these people think Match.com is? (No no, I mean other than dreadful.) Or setups by their friends and relatives? A series of random collisions?

My response to such questions is - "Let me educate you a little bit..it'll come in handy".

'did your parents promise you to someone when you were 5 years old' is something i get all the time.
maybe it's a southern thing.
who the hell knows.

fantastic.
super duper.
but of course.

i was betrothed to someone in a mubmai playground as we were both playing in a sandbox with our empty limca bottles. our parents discussed our futures while eating pani puri from the local stand. they were debating the dowry. should it be 55 cows or 550 kilos of basmati rice? isn't it obvious?

p.s. but of course, i saw in hindsight it was pretty barbaric and took it on my own accord by having my own marriage pact ;).

O BTW - there's a whole bunch of smileys in my post #16 above...

An arranged marriage may not be forced but it's no less ghastly. The majority of such marriages are between two largely incompatible people."

Exactly. It is my opinion that this practice should be dismantled, anyone who practices or pushes it on their children, in my most humble, quasi-informed, data-less, unscholastic view, should be held accountable for a crime against humanity

Well a lot of arranged marriages in India are between two largely incompatible people and they don't necessarily find it out a few days after the wedding. Sometimes it takes longer. But that's not the problem. The big problem is that such marriages are usually closed-end with no getting-out option. Divorce is unheard or unthought of. Your own well wishers won't let you. Usually it's the girl who is miserable but puts up with her lot. That's where the difference with the West or big cities in India .

An arranged marriage may not be forced but it's no less ghastly. The majority of such marriages are between two largely incompatible people.

I think this is a gross generalization, and I think the latter part could also be applied to many, many "love" marriages that I have witnessed. My parents had an arranged marriage (neither was forced or coerced), and they are a lot happier than most of the people in the town I grew up in. In fact, all most all my friends' parents are now divorced. I'm not saying this is a rule, but I think there are more factors at play than if someone met in a bar or through their parents

I think I gone from "Actually, its not exactly so..." to "Teri macaca!.." in 10 yrs time. And all those dissing arranged marriages, hope that's in jest 'cos in this big free-will/willy culture of the us of a, success rate is consistent with a flip of the coin, so how can arranges get any worse? Either way its see-if-the-cowpat-sticks.

And damn this - the bride didn't smile hence they all must gangr**e her - attitude. Whether she smiles or not is none of your damn-f*****g biz. Donn 'the mask' and smile like a hyena at your wedding but don't push your cutural view on someone else. I also don't like to parade nude in front of strangers in a shower but that doesn't mean I'm prude. I can appreciate that that's what *you* want to do.

Other than that, in the unimitable words of Ari- let's hug it out, b***h!!

I think this is a gross generalization, and I think the latter part could also be applied to many, many "love" marriages that I have witnessed.

Gautam,
I have to respectfully disagree. Most arranged marriages do not end in divorce because there is no exit option in Indian society. There is no such "safety net" in "love marriages" and that's why you see a lot more people from your town divorced. You should be celebrating their right to get out of unhappy and often abusive relationships not berating "love marriage" as being on par with arranged marriage.

M&A deals have a "due diligence" phase. Car dealers have a "test drive" and yet desis even today enter into the most important thing in their life blindfolded. Don't do your due diligence or test drive well you have a lemon on your hands!

success rate is consistent with a flip of the coin, so how can arranges get any worse?

The 50% statistic is an aggregate figure. The "success" rate actually climbs when taking certain things into account (education level, age when getting married, income, etc..) link.

And I place "success" in quotes because it's not a binary decision - that is, lack of divorce does not necessarily imply success (as is the case in many Indian marriages, where divorce did not occur, but it can't be considered a success by any stretch of the word. [at any level of "arrangement", assisting etc.])

"M&A deals have a "due diligence" phase. Car dealers have a "test drive" and yet desis even today enter into the most important thing in their life blindfolded. Don't do your due diligence or test drive well you have a lemon on your hands!"

I'm in total agreement here. Indian culture got many things right, but this is something for the most part, they got dead wrong To put it in the most scientific of terms, to not acquire necessary social dynamics training before undertaking the most crucial and pivotal social decision a person can make, it's much like walking into a rock climbing shop, buying a harness, rope and clips for the first time, then marching over to mount everest and start climbing.

HMF:

to put it in the most scientific of terms, to not acquire necessary social dynamics training before undertaking the most crucial and pivotal social decision a person can make.

I don't know how many times I heard this said in India, that you marry a family, and not a person. I might be willing to argue that, in conventioal Indian thinking, which is fortunately changing, the family, not the person, is the smallest unit of measure. Noice how its the 'khandaan's izzat', and not an aadmi's/aurat's izzat, that is always at stake in an Indian movie.

The interesting thing about this post--and this is a common SM theme--is the notion that cultural ignorance is not only offensive, but perhaps a sign of latent racism. Mutineers often take umbrage when Americans are so unfamiliar with our culture that they must resort to stereotype, as if they should be familiar and as if we do not do the same with foreign cultures. Just a quick glimpse of some of the comments made on this site about white southerners should tell us differently.

Interestingly, Amardeep threads close to stereotyping with this:

Come on guys, get over it: learn something about the culture of the people who invented the tabla you’ve learned to play.

OK, it's a positive stereotype but a stereotype nonetheless, that--like the notion that all Desis are well educated overachievers-- "laid back" artistic types are culturally sensitive, nonjudgmental, and open to new ideas. C'mon Amardeep, you are--like those who use the "model minority myth"--oppressing those artists who cannot live up to these standards.

success rate is consistent with a flip of the coin, so how can arranges get any worse?

The 50% statistic is an aggregate figure. The "success" rate actually climbs when taking certain things into account (education level, age when getting married, income, etc..) link.

And I place "success" in quotes because it's not a binary decision - that is, lack of divorce does not necessarily imply success (as is the case in many Indian marriages, where divorce did not occur, but it can't be considered a success by any stretch of the word. [at any level of "arrangement", assisting etc.])

Never said that. see my comment above and below.

I have to respectfully disagree. Most arranged marriages do not end in divorce because there is no exit option in Indian society. There is no such "safety net" in "love marriages" and that's why you see a lot more people from your town divorced. You should be celebrating their right to get out of unhappy and often abusive relationships not berating "love marriage" as being on par with arranged marriage.

I knew this argument would be made. HMF, why wouldn't aggregate figure suffice? It represents hundreds of million of humanity. Any success rate climbers would apply similarly anywhere, if not, a bunch of factors put together for different cultural situations would again aggregate everything out.

I didn't argue that arranged marriages are necessarily better. Only that the most free-will of decisions still only has a near 50% chance, so why would counting only happy arranged marriages would find a number inferior to 50%? If you're implying that odds for arranged marriages to be happy are worse than those for self-arranged, that would mean that when more people than the principals get involved in helping them out, they're likely to make the principals miserable.

How can that be true? If random chance is 50%, then concerted effort would be more likely to produce better than those odds. If concerted effort by 2 people still results in close to 50%, then concerted effort by more than 2 people for them should result in better odds, not worse.

DesiDawg @ 26 & HMF @ 28:

No amount of "due diligence" or a number of "test drives" are good enough guarantors that it will all work out; in other words these may be "necessary" conditions for some folks to "jump da broom" but not these are not "sufficient" conditions to ensure that the eventual marriage is a lemon or not. Besides, if you look at the kind of hard nosed scrutiny and data collection (too business like/ CIA like even) that folks are subjected to (at least in India; once my parents were out of town, and I had to field a telephone call from a distant uncle of a potential groom who wanted to talk to my father about the general behaviour and demeanor of a girl who lived down the street) under arranged marriages.

All this, discounting the issue of how initial conditions ("due diligence" and "test drives") are really not all that accurate in predicting what will be the final state which the complex system (marriage) will attain. Finally, there was this 2002 study put out by the National Marriage Project @ Rutgers Univ, which indicated (I haven't re-read it since then) that "a careful review of the available social science evidence suggests that living together is not a good way to prepare for marriage or to avoid divorce". Also here is a well written (& recent) blog post on this subject.

Just some more food for thought.

Just a quick glimpse of some of the comments made on this site about white southerners should tell us differently.

You hit it on the nail! Here's another;

I also don't like to parade nude in front of strangers in a shower but that doesn't mean I'm prude. I can appreciate that that's what *you* want to do.

she wasn't smiling because those ignorant white muvs couldn't play the tabla for shit! i was at that wedding and the guy's dagga sounded like me tapping on the top of a poland spring bottle. boo hiss boo.

Manju, I agree. Particularly in regard to southern 'rednecks', a lot of mutineers don't seem to have any problem making gross assumptions.

I'm genuinely unsure why everyone gets riled at the arranged marriage questions, when the vast majority of INDIAN, much less American!, popular media fetishizes this institution and often emphasizes its most negative manifestations. (Just consider the overstated theme of forced marriage in Bollywood films, for instance.) Monsoon Wedding and Bend it Like Beckham certainly reinforced some of the misperceptions about arranged marriages. Why would you expect most non-desis to realize these films should be taken with a grain of salt? Certainly Hollywood seems to be taken as an accurate representation of American culture by many people in India.

In short -- expecting everyone to have done the research themselves ignores the fact that there are tons of different cultural, religious, and ethnic groups in the USA, and time is short. Do your friends and importunate questioners a favor and enlighten them yourselves by taking and replying to their question the way it was probably meant -- curiously, and harmlessly. I just don't think this is a credible enough issue to resent people for.

My response to such questions is - "Let me educate you a little bit..it'll come in handy".

uh... i dont think educating someone while on a date is the right icebreaker. it goes into the next stereotype of indian males "clean my office, indian voman! evil laughter ... which isnt untrue... i am as assertive as the next guy - but i'd like the other to be confidently counter-assertive rather than lay a guilt-trip on me - which is just downright underhanded.

sigh... i wish GGM would come to the US ... life would be so much simpler... :-/

Nice post Simran.

Insted of getting frustated, one should try to "educate" others about their culture and traditions.

"HMF, why wouldn't aggregate figure suffice? "

Because if we restrict the discussion to Indians/desis growing up in the US, the 50% figure gets tossed out the window. And the link I quoted also went on to state the 50% rate is more indicative of past performance, rather than future behavior.

"I didn't argue that arranged marriages are necessarily better. "

Thats the implication.

"Only that the most free-will of decisions still only has a near 50% chance, so why would counting only happy arranged marriages would find a number inferior to 50%?"

I'm not only counting "happy" marriages and then turning around and stating "look they're happy!" I'm taking into account factors like waiting until your over 25, waiting until your financially stable, waiting until you're at peace with your chosen life direction, and many other factors.

"If random chance is 50%, then concerted effort would be more likely to produce better than those odds. If concerted effort by 2 people still results in close to 50%, then concerted effort by more than 2 people for them should result in better odds, not worse."

Ever heard the saying "too many cooks spoil the broth?" Emotional issues, and person to person relations are non-linear processes. You most certainly cannot say 2 people give X amount of help to creating a lasting decision, therefore 20 people will contibute 10X, or something like that. Even making a general statement like "better odds, not worse" is not completely obvious and unproblematic.

One must really delve into the nature of why families get so involved, I argue it's not for the ultimate benefit of the individuals at hand, rather for the benefit of society at large. and that's where your linear progression argument breaks down. Now, this relates to sakshi's comment about marrying a family and not a person - implicit in this is, the individuals needs and desires take a back seat to towing the line.

Sashi:
"No amount of "due diligence" or a number of "test drives" are good enough guarantors that it will all work out"

"a careful review of the available social science evidence suggests that living together is not a good way to prepare for marriage or to avoid divorce""

But people test drive cars and practice due diligence anyway, right? Pre-marital co-habitation is one method, not the only one. I believe that social dynamics, relationship maintenance, connecting emotionally, or as the ubiquitous female buzzword "chemistry" are skills like any other - playing piano, riding bikes, solving differential equations - and can only develop with practice. To those that recoil and say "No way! You make it too serious and scientific bla bla" I call them naturals, they naturally develop those skills, and rarely have to think of their mechanics. But make no mistake.. they ARE skills.

I see no logic in a society that decries people developing these skills, then expects them to be masters at the drop of a hat... Nearly every "aunty" and "uncle" that I've spoken too (those open minded enough to even have this discussion) agrees with me.

I'm not sure I find such comments offensive, amusing maybe, but not offensive. Esp. since much of what is true for us today w/r/t marriage, dating etc. has only been true for the past generation or so. Yeah, WE know about it b/c we have direct exposure to the change in ideas and practices that has happened so quickly (just 1 generation in my family), but why would others know that at all unless they personally knew brown folks who defied the traditional image (and most Americans, be they white, black, etc. do not personally know brown people at all given we are still a small fraction of the overall pop.)?

I think the reactions here could afford to be a bit less knee-jerk and maybe a bit more understanding of the other in this case.

"Look sad! Indian bride never smiles! You'll ruin the bloody video!" - Bend it Like Beckham

lol maisnon -- you beat me to it!

I also am not claiming that arranged marriage is perfect, but as Amardeep pointed out, forced marriage is extremely rare among second generation Indians and even urban middle and upperclasses in India now. There's stigma attached to the idea of meeting someone through family that is not always jsutified. I oppose forcing someone to marry as much as anyone else; but I also think it is disrespectful to my parents and the thousands of other happily married arranged couples to say that they were somehow "wrong" to choose the path they did. As for the socio-economic argument, it's actually only true to a point. Statistics show that those with the highest levels of education and income tend to get divorced at high rates as well. I don't like how peopel view this issue as some sort of dichotomy, where Indians have it wrong and the West has it right. There is obviously things wrong with both systems; the fact that marriage in America has become basically a temporary arrangement is a good indication of this.

I attended some 4-5 wedding during my last trip to India.
A fairly new concept that I saw in all these marraiges was that of "DJ" and "dance floor".
Friend and family made sure that the bride and groom did shake their booty on the dance floor.
btw..all the brides that I saw were "happy" and smiling.

I think the reactions here could afford to be a bit less knee-jerk and maybe a bit more understanding of the other in this case.

NEVER...

Sound the gongs. Rouse the hounds. Take to the streets.

IT's clobber MUTINY-time!!!

I believe that social dynamics, relationship maintenance, connecting emotionally, or as the ubiquitous female buzzword "chemistry" are skills like any other - playing piano, riding bikes, solving differential equations - and can only develop with practice.

However, these skills are not taught in systematic way in our childhood, in schools, or in families. Rather, the first 10--20 years of our adulthood is spent in learning these skills. In other words, we learn these skills after our careers begin or after our marriages begin. It is nothing to do with arranged marriages or love marriages.

"Look sad! Indian bride never smiles! You'll ruin the bloody video!" - Bend it Like Beckham

Exactly, my friend. Exactly.

HMF @ 38: I agree with the point you make regarding development of "relational" skills. That said, I think these are skills (I am thinking of kindness, empathy, emotional resilience etc more than the skills required to "romance" effectively - this is not to implay that "romance" skills are not required but that they are minor, atleast in my system of thinking) that someone accquires (or learns over) a lifetime from his/her entire web of relationships (family, friendships, work relationship etc), and not necessarily from "test drives" alone. Again, as you said, not every one has to "test drive" in order to learn the "soft" skills required for great marriages - they can acqure from other sources as well.

but I also think it is disrespectful to my parents and the thousands of other happily married arranged couples to say that they were somehow "wrong" to choose the path they did.

Absolutely correct except for the very last part. The problem is that many people are not given a "choice" in exactly which marriage path to take -- it's either the arranged-marriage route or nothing. This point is particularly relevant with regards to what happened amongst the parents' generation, but it still frequently applies to many 2nd-Gen South Asians in the West too.

Less so these days, at least here in the UK (amongst Hindus & Sikhs if not necessarily Muslims), but it's still an issue in some quarters.

I fail to understand why anyone would expect people who do not come from cultures where arranged marriages are the norm, to understand the dynamics of the different kinds of arranged marriages.

It's like me going to a small village in Rajasthan and expecting the people to understand the complexities of the American dating scene. It is something unknown to them and hence a curiosity in which they will have many misunderstandings.

How many times have I been asked, no, told - "so, there is free sex in America." I'm like um, no, nothing is free in American except for internet use in libraries.

Come on!

No one will understand these things unless they are exposed to them.

Why should someone who is not exposed to something be expected to "get it".

It is up to us, the people who HAVE BEEN EXPOSED, to explain the hows, whys, whats, when and wheres of such things.

There are reasons for everything a human being does. Often times the very same reason is why two different human beings do OPPOSITE things.

Example;

I'm asked several times why in America grown children "abandon" their parents to live on their own. I explain that while in India a young man's responsibility is proven by staying on in the house of his parents and taking over their previous responsibilities of running the household, in America, a young man or woman's responsibility is proven by moving out and getting a job and place of their own. The reason is more or less the same - proving adult responsibility, but the outcome or action takes a different form.

The form is different because the cultures and environments are different.

It is not true that the average age of Americans and Indians entering into marriage is about the same. For educated people - yes. But that is not taking into account India's millions of rural, less educated folk - a group that seems to be often overlooked in comments on internet forums. Those people are still marrying in their teens and younger, by the millions.

Ask any of the domestic workers in the homes you stay in when visiting India at what age were they married. My experience in asking this question is all under the age of 18.

Very young marriages were also common in USA not too long ago. My grandmother was married at 14 and my grandfather was in his twenties. Nowadays this would be considered a crime and my grandfather locked up.

#48, spoken like a true Sage. Great comment.

"HMF @ 38: I agree with the point you make regarding development of "relational" skills. That said, I think these are skills (I am thinking of kindness, empathy, emotional resilience etc more than the skills required to "romance" effectively - this is not to implay that "romance" skills are not required but that they are minor, atleast in my system of thinking) that someone accquires (or learns over) a lifetime from his/her entire web of relationships (family, friendships, work relationship etc), and not necessarily from "test drives" alone. Again, as you said, not every one has to "test drive" in order to learn the "soft" skills required for great marriages - they can acqure from other sources as well."

You must be a woman (if you're not, don't take offense, a lot of women think this way) I think kindness, empathy, are natural qualities, no one is born an adulterer or mass murderer or anything else for that matter. It's a matter of uncovering them. Romance skills (actually I don't like that term, I prefer social dynamics) can only be acquired from test drives. Just "being yourself" is worthless as a pile of fly ridden dog shit. And I also make the point that India has an in-built systematic tendancy to supress said development, in so far as I know.

Why should someone who is not exposed to something be expected to "get it".

Then what the hell were they doing in a drum circle playing tablas? (I'm with deb in the drum circle hating.)

Shruti, I fai to see the connection between drum circles and having knowledge about arranged marraiges.

Drum circles are for drumming.

ah, our friend Pardesi Gori has returned in a new form with a new moniker. How long before we start hearing how terrible all Indian men are, which is why arranged marriage is necessary?

Gautam, for some men that may definetly be true. But I am not against arranged marraiges. I think they are a reasonable option.

In fact, I know several non-Indians who wish some sort of system like that was available as an option to them.

The problem is though, when one has high expectations, or too many expectations, dating on one's own or meeting "suitable boys and girls" through family connections becomes a ferris wheel. You just keep going round and round and round hoping you will meet the perfect one until one day you realize you are old(er) and lonely and should have just "settled" for one of them.

This is common amongst both desis and par-desis in their say, mid to late thirties.

The problem is though, when one has high expectations, or too many expectations, dating on one's own or meeting "suitable boys and girls" through family connections becomes a ferris wheel. You just keep going round and round and round hoping you will meet the perfect one until one day you realize you are old(er) and lonely and should have just "settled" for one of them.

Isn't this true of every culture? Isn't that why Internet dating has exploded here? I fail to see how this is a uniquely Indian situation.

In every culture, people that are attractive or wealthy are the most prized as mates. Often, it is some type of exchange, as in a very attractive girl will marry a less attractive guy because he is wealthy, or vice versa. Everyone also likes to believe they are more desirable than they are. This isn't restricted to arranged marriage; I know a lot of brown people in their 30s here that consider arranged marriage once they figure out that they aren't going to meet Mr or Ms. Right and want someone that fits their definition of acceptable. or "suitable" if you will.

Gautam, I clarified above I was speaking of both desis and pardesis.

Just a quick glimpse of some of the comments made on this site about white southerners should tell us differently.

You hit it on the nail! Here's another;

"I also don't like to parade nude in front of strangers in a shower but that doesn't mean I'm prude. I can appreciate that that's what *you* want to do."

Jilted manhood, I don't understand how the statement about communal showering displays something racist/ignorant about white southerners or 'rednecks' or whichever group. Can you explain?

Manju, there may be comments diplaying similar ignorance on this site, but in context of THIS discussion, I didn't see any. Sure dumb comments abound across any human group, but this particular thread is about one particular specific interaction, and its existence doesn't automatically mean desis here are propogating the 'model minority myth' or whatever. And I didn't see signs of latent racism in this post. It was simply an ignorant person making totally preventable ignorant comments. C'mon!

HMF, I think you're not responding to the simple question I posed. I'll rephrase it here. I don't have anything more to add.

Why do you think arranged marriages are simply an inferior way of getting married, in comparison to self-arranged ones?

Let me simplify, and repeat: There is no evidence that free-will marriages as seen in the usa (or anywhere else) for example, have a higher success rate than arranged marriages as seen in india (or anywhere else) for example. In addition, since free-will has a 50% chance of succeeding, it appears to me that its no better than flip of a coin, hence, it makes sense that other methods be in action, in effort to produce a better result. This is why I believe your viewpoint in dissing the arranged marriage concept is wrong.

Nowhere in this or elsewhere have I claimed to hold arranged marriages superior to other paths to marriage. But I do believe its not inferior to other ways of getting hitched.

One take on the no smiling....

If you read alot of Indian epics, folklore, etc, a common theme is "lajja bhushana stri", shyness is the ornament of a woman. Many stories are built around this. I think this is why you will find a general sort of reservedness in some Indian women in public and it is considered by some Indians from various regions and cultural backgrounds to be "too bold" for a woman to smile, laugh, dance at her own wedding. At such weddings you will not find men and women dancing together but the women in one group, men in another. Not all weddings in India are like this by any means. However many are. It depends on the people, their cultural background, social conditionings,belief systems, etc. A good sanskrit word that sums up the above is "samskars" or psychological impressions gained over a lifetime.

It is not uncommon to find women in India who feel that to even initiate sexual contact with their husbands first is taboo. Again this ties into "lajja bhushana stri".

The same things could be said for women across many cultures, but we are talking of an Indian wedding and therefore I remain India specific and am sharing with you what has come into my circle of experience only.

Jilted manhood, I don't understand how the statement about communal showering displays something racist/ignorant about white southerners or 'rednecks' or whichever group. Can you explain?

I didn't mean you were being contemptuous of Rednecks in particlular. But I did think you were hinting on the allegedly dissolute ways of White people in general. The more I read your comment I feel that's not what you meant. If that's so I am sorry.

"The problem is though, when one has high expectations, or too many expectations, dating on one's own or meeting "suitable boys and girls" through family connections becomes a ferris wheel. You just keep going round and round and round hoping you will meet the perfect one until one day you realize you are old(er) and lonely and should have just "settled" for one of them."

The more prevalent problem is, when one has too low expectations, or forgoes (or is barred from) determining what their expectataions are, and are forced into marrying someone, it becomes more like a tilt-a-whirl, without a seatbelt. Now the tilt-a-whirl might be more fun in the short term, but if I absolutely had to choose between one or another, I'd go with the ferris wheel.

As for why the bride wasn’t smiling: uncomfortable outfit? Awkward hair? Cultural expectation?

To quote the videographer in a certain Gurinder Chadha film: "Eyes down, eyes down! You'll spoil the bloody video."

:-)

It is not uncommon to find women in India who feel that to even initiate sexual contact with their husbands first is taboo. Again this ties into "lajja bhushana stri".

The youth in India can reclaim India's true heritage by arousing a nationwide sexual awakening. Until then India won't really be free.

As for why the bride wasn’t smiling: uncomfortable outfit? Awkward hair? Cultural expectation?

Gas?

HMF - I see what you're getting at. You might've seen what could be described as "passionless" marriages among Indian couples. Some of my Indian friends complain that this is the kind of marraiges they grew up witnesses between their parents. No holding hands or showing affection in front of the kids, etc. More or less a duty, yada, yada, yada...

This takes place worldwide. I guess there would be no way to gauge if arranged marriages have more of a chance of turning out like that as opposed to non-arranged.

Many people prefer to opt for arranged marriages, even after being through the dating scene and having the oppurtunity to choose for oneself.

Example; I have a very attractive and financially successfuly Indian male friend who had no problem attracting women. Yet, he really had no time to invest in dating and going from woman to woman to try to find someone suitable. So finally he just told his mom to go ahead and find some women and he would be willing to meet them. After meeting several and "not feelin it", he finally was introduced to someone he "liked". They dated a few times and communicated via phone, internet, etc, and finally married. That "like" grew into love after some time.

Funny, he still says he wish he would have married a non-Indian because he was looking forward to the excitement of a "cross-cultural" relationship. But he just did not have the time to invest in all that pre-marriage relationship building and possible heart-break. At his age and position he wanted to go for a sure thing.

Is his marriage "passionless"? I don't know.

I think passion is a spontaneous thing in the beginning but something that may have to be worked on to keep burning years down the line. That's what all these relationship books are about we see so much of these days.

Personally I think relationship courses should be given to kids in high schools everywhere as part of the carriculum.

Gas?

"HMF - I see what you're getting at. You might've seen what could be described as "passionless" marriages among Indian couples. Some of my Indian friends complain that this is the kind of marraiges they grew up witnesses between their parents. No holding hands or showing affection in front of the kids, etc. More or less a duty, yada, yada, yada..."

It's not about passion, it doesn't bother me that my parents or their generation don't go around calling each other honey and babes every 2 seconds, and hold hands in public or any of that nonsense

"Yet, he really had no time to invest in dating and going from woman to woman to try to find someone suitable. So finally he just told his mom to go ahead and find some women and he would be willing to meet them. "

This is a little different, he actually made the choice to turn back to the system, on his own timing. I would contend that if he were forced to use the system like many, he wouldn't speak so highly of it. When I lambast the arranged marriage system, it's the guilt, fear, and constant haranguing to do it by a certain time, that I abhor.

HMF - I hear ya!

I'm not even an Indian and I get that all the time in India. At first I took major offense at it (mostly for religious reasons), but now that I'm more chilled with time and age, I just joke around about it. But yeah, if it's annoying to me and I'm not even a "spoke in the wheel", so to speak, then I can imagine how fed up you and others would be with constant harangueing.

"It's not about passion, it doesn't bother me that my parents or their generation don't go around calling each other honey and babes every 2 seconds, and hold hands in public or any of that nonsense"

LOL! That is sooo funny, baby, honey, cupcake! ;-)

Isn't it common to give pet-names or nick-names to loved ones? I don't see what's so funny about it. Unless you call them "Rinku" or something like that.

In some parts of India the husband gives an entirely new first name to the wife. From Shruti to Omkaraa, or Lalita to Arpita.

In the area of India where I reside, women generally do not call their husbands by their first names, there are folkloric reasons for that and it is tied in to "respect". When they want to get their attention they say, "soon"... listen. Not "Suno Vikram", or "Sweetheart suno", but simply, "soon".

"Baby" on the other hand is a common nickname for sisters. I had one Indian male friend who was like a brother to me and he was always calling me "baby". I thought he was calling me "baby" the way my fiance does and I wrote him an email saying, "don't call me baby". He was like, "that's an affectionate name for my younger sister, what's the big deal".

And then I noticed that amongst several Indian families in my area, there is always a "baby" in the family.

I don't see what's so funny or non-sensical about giving pet-names to people.

Sorry, dude/dudette. I may have inhaled some laughing gas, because when I read this:

"I don't see what's so funny about it.Unless you call them "Rinku" or something like that."

I almost PEED my pants! "Rinku" - LOL! Keep it up - you're cracking me up!

Rinku. Dinku. Chintu and Munnu. Yeah, we get a good laugh out of those too. How about "Pinky"?

Regarding Shruti's expectations that every drum circle kid in America bangin on tablas know about the intricacies of Indian mating rituals... why? For what? will it help their drumming?

If I go to an Indian village and guys there wear polyester pants with belts and button down shirts with ties instead of dhoti/kurta, should I expect them to know about any Western mating rituals in detail? How about if they play the trombone or recite Wordsworth (pretty popular in India). ?

I just don't see a connection.

And yes, arranged marriages are a weird concept for people who have not grown up in a culture where they are the norm. Just like having boyfriends/girlfriends is a weird concept for many people who grow up in cultures where there is no dating.

The best thing is to not take offense at innocent comments that arise due to ignorance and lack of exposure to said culture, but rather, take it as an oppurtunity to SHARE in a FRIENDLY way, your own personal experience of arranged marriages, keeping in mind that those would be your own personal experiences and that other forms of arranged marraiges do take place wherein the bride and groom are very very young and there is no choice and hence, the innocent comments made in ignorance by above drummers are not entirely off for a whole lot of people in India. Even if those people are not in your family and social circles.

Something tells me that Beige Sage you have chosen the grimmest nook of India as your home.

Mutineers often take umbrage when Americans are so unfamiliar with our culture that they must resort to stereotype, as if they should be familiar and as if we do not do the same with foreign cultures. Just a quick glimpse of some of the comments made on this site about white southerners should tell us differently.

Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winner!

i pulled the plug after years of serial dating both on and offline -- bars, clubs, craigslist, NETIP, Wendy's, the mall, match dot who? shaadi dot what? -- ultimately getting hitched to a little hellraiser - just kidding honey lovely lady after having only met just once -- over the course of lunch at her (and her parent's) home in Punjab.

for someone who used to live in manhattan and fork over $100 to the gayest man alive aka my "stylist", so they could groom my coiffure of three dangling whiskers that mercifully grace my scalp into an arrangement i was convinced would get me laid, i thought it would be a cold day in hell before i march down dowery lane and sign up for an arranged marriage and ultimately get wed in 3000 BC earth Rajasthan (and Punjab).

sure, there was tremendous pressure embellished with off-the-shelf dramas, like ...

mother: arre beta, main budi hogi. maybe once i rest in GRAVE, God will answer prayer and then maybe you will get the married *sniff sniff*
me: God is a satanic bisexual who eats beef. didn't you hear?
father: beta, main tumko kaisa samjao? DAHRR-LEENG, please talk to your son.
me: you people are all crazy. this is an aslyum, not a home.
mother: tameez se baat kar!
...
but push came to shove and what i once thought was an insatiable appetite for dating women who list Kiehl's Lip Balm as one of the five things they can't live without, had finally weakened into semi-disinterested afterthoughts. oh...and i eventually BRAINWASHED myself into believing that things like love and falling in and out of it, as well as relationships and dating and the sparks that fly when you're having a "bonding" moment with that cute brunette discussing thread counts and who you just mentally undressed, and, interestingly, looks GREAT even though you can't really tell because she just buried your face in her tits and now you've got a silly shit-eating grin on your face and people can't figure out what the hell is wrong with you, is all just CIRCUMSTANTIAL.

it took one part balls, two parts idiocy and a dash of faith to look at my, who was, at that time, soon-to-be wife, and tell myself, confounded with the mangled hindsight that i was about to

resign all notions of "dating" and "just do it" (minus the fun and coolness and catchiness of the Nike brand), that she is now and will forever be "the one".

and besides, i will NOT repeat another million-mile long barat that started just outside of Udaipur, finally commencing in Chandigarh. it wasn't exactly the Ritz-Carlton and i didn't QUITE get propped up onto a white stallion (it was more of the mule-ish/donkey variety that, i was told, was FIT FOR A KING, LIKE ME) but everyone had way too much fun and that's all that (ever) matters.

Photo: Totolal, we're no longer in Kansas.

and although hurtful things are sometimes said ...

her: I WAS SOLD A BAD BILL OF GOODS. you never told me you blah blah and blah!
me: THEN RETURN ME
her: i SHOULD!
me: you are a GREENCARD HO. you won't do shit!
her: don't threaten me! i'll pick up this phone right NOW and tell my mother that i'm through with you!
me: your DEAR MOTHER is at the temple right now praying that my man-seed yield her three grandsons. she has no time for your bakwaas.
her: i'm so stupid. i can't believe i got married to you!
me: i know. arranged marriages SUCK. they're horrid! if it wasn't for that sumptuous bum you rock, you would be more or less useless to me.

[[[filthy arranged marriage sex ensues]]]

the kicker is that we get along fabulously and laugh hysterically and makes knocks about how moronic arranged marriages are indeed and how we swear we'll never allow our children into one while throwing back bujia over hot cups of chai and getting crazy with mom. seriously, being pussy-whipped never felt so good. (you can go throw up now) but part of me chides myself for being foolish enough to take as big a risk as i did, but then again, i have a horrible gambling itch.

and my parents? lord, you'd think they were medicated or doping behind my back. they also have a NASTY case of the "I told you so's".

father: ha! ha! oh, beta. i'm so glad you came for dinner!
me: I LIVE HERE
father: ha ha! oh yes yes! how was work?
me: o.k. I had to g...
father: SEE? I TOLD YOU SO. WAS I NOT TELLING YOU SUCH? BUT NO! TU BADA NATAK WATAK KAR DIYA! HO HO! HA HO!
me: that only adjusts your status from completely INSANE to tolerably NUTS. OK?
father: HA HA! oh beta! ha ha!

of course NOW their new complaint revolves around when we plan on having kids. *sigh*

ITS MADNESS, I TELL YA

Insert obligatory Apu & Manjula reference here.
[__________________________________________]

hilarious post, AC.
I don't think its anyone's claim here (if it is, speak now, or forever keep your peace ;) ) that love marriages are better than arranged marriages...but, simply that (as many people have pointed out), one should be allowed to have a choice...

as an aside, the love marriage trend seems to be growing in india...i don't have a single friend back in desh who got hooked through an arranged marriage...

If I go to an Indian village and guys there wear polyester pants with belts and button down shirts with ties instead of dhoti/kurta, should I expect them to know about any Western mating rituals in detail? How about if they play the trombone or recite Wordsworth (pretty popular in India). ?

I just don't see a connection

Beige Sage, your new name aint doing ya any favours. The difference - or the connection - is the resources that people in western countries have to find out about other cultures and the presence of immigrants from these cultures in their own countries in ever-growing numbers.

Joining a group where you play the tablas shows in interest in Indian culture that's not mainstream - western clothing is mainstream in India, but tablas and traditional instruments aren't known to many other Beige Sages. No it's not fair to expect people to know everything about every other culture, but I think the whole arranged marriage thing is a sore point because people have been through convos like the overheard one so many times.

listen!! if you have nothing positive to say about indic folk, keep your jalebihole SHUT and help me procreate.

Great line, hairy_d :)

AC that was a hilarious and thought provoking post. The mentions of Kiehl, Rajasthan and Manhattan resonated loudly.

Regarding Shruti's expectations that every drum circle kid in America bangin on tablas know about the intricacies of Indian mating rituals... why? For what? will it help their drumming?

If I go to an Indian village and guys there wear polyester pants with belts and button down shirts with ties instead of dhoti/kurta, should I expect them to know about any Western mating rituals in detail? How about if they play the trombone or recite Wordsworth (pretty popular in India). ?

I just don't see a connection.

Fair enough, Beige Sage, I am guilty as charged. I shouldn't have made the connection, just because I hate both drum circles and people who make asinine assumptions about my culture. I'm not compelled by the excuses you made in either's favor, but in the scenarios you presented, I admit that they are not clearly connected.

And on this particular point:

Regarding Shruti's expectations that every drum circle kid in America bangin on tablas know about the intricacies of Indian mating rituals

I have no such expectations. Especially not from Americans. I merely wish they would give some thought and some respect to the culture from where their tabla came. Is that really unreasonable?

I like what HMF and Beige Sage have been saying. And I agree that "relationshipping" (a verb that a friend of mine uses constantly) is definitely a learned skill that gets better with practice and time. I did and said crap to boys when I was younger that I wouldn't do now. But I am grateful that I've had the boyfriends I've had, I'm still friends with most of them and they helped me be who I am today. I love all of them for what they were to me at a particular point in time, at a particular point in my development. I thought my college boyfriend was my "soulmate" but looking back, we've both changed and taken different life paths and couldn't be together now. Point being, I also don't like the idea of marriage/not getting divorced as some sort of proven marker of relationship success. I consider most of my relationships to have been successful for what they were, you know?

Secondly, I've been told by a few Brit Asians that it was well-known (at least 10-15 yrs ago, I dunno about now) that the whole "assisted introduction" thing in the late teens and early 20s was a way to get a quick, strings-free shag. Kids would agree to it, go take a walk together while the parents were talking and get it on in a car or something, and then come back and say "No, I don't think it'll work out. Who else do you have for me?" So I suppose that's an interesting combination of Western dating and Eastern tradition. ;)

"lajja bhushana stri" indeed!
Maybe someone needs to go to the malls of South Bombay next time they're in the old country.

Secondly, I've been told by a few Brit Asians that it was well-known (at least 10-15 yrs ago, I dunno about now) that the whole "assisted introduction" thing in the late teens and early 20s was a way to get a quick, strings-free shag.

You know what? My friend recently joined a famous intenational website devoted to matchmaking amongst desis. I'm sure you all know the name of it. He is approaching 30 and getting the usual hassle to try and find a nice girl by his family, get married, settle down.

Anyway, in the last 6 months or so he has hooked up with five or six girls across the country. It's a freakin' meat market. Boys and girls are hooking up and getting laid all on the understanding of their families that they are seriously complying with the gentle pressure to find a mate, then meeting similarly inclined people, half wanting to meet someone for marriage, half horny as hell and wanting to just have fun before the noose of marriage and the thirties come along. I chatted to someone else and he says it's the same, what a way to meet girls/boys for no strings attached fun. All undercover of course. And all those aunties and uncles thinking you are such good and nice boys and girls for doing as they say hahaha. My friend is oversexed now. Total shagfest.

Sometimes it sucks to be in a relationship.

How about this FOB ad ;-)
Tamil Iyengar boy,177/65/US$95K. Btech IIT Madras/MSCS UT Austin. Working as a software engineer in Redwood shores looking for a suitable match. Girl must be fair/tall/must play veena/know Bharat Natyam/cook rasam and be obedient. Software engineer with H1B under processing preferred. Send horoscopam and details to...

HMF, I think you're not responding to the simple question I posed. I'll rephrase it here. I don't have anything more to add.

Why do you think arranged marriages are simply an inferior way of getting married, in comparison to self-arranged ones?

Because your question fails to take into account the Indian historical, philosophical, and religous context of the place marriage has in human existence. I've explained in this thread and many others, the arranged marriage system as it's coupled with the belief that marriage exists to support the underlying societal structure, rather than support the individuals at hand, in my view, is quite inferior.

I've already expounded on how guilt, fear, asking questions like "you're 30 and not married, what will the neighbors think?" etc.. do nothing but subvert the society it intends to serve.

Another poster gave an example where the individual voluntary requested the parents to help out - and in that sense, the parents become just another feeder source. But when parents impose their own timetable, based on knee-jerk social conditioning, I believe it does more harm than good.

Let me simplify, and repeat: There is no evidence that free-will marriages as seen in the usa (or anywhere else) for example, have a higher success rate than arranged marriages as seen in india (or anywhere else) for example.

There you go again. Using your limited definition of "not getting divorced = success". It's an uncritical and imcomplete analysis.

In addition, since free-will has a 50% chance of succeeding, it appears to me that its no better than flip of a coin, hence, it makes sense that other methods be in action, in effort to produce a better result. This is why I believe your viewpoint in dissing the arranged marriage concept is wrong.

I've already addressed your erroneous usage of the 50% statistic in the context of desi's born and growing up in the United States, and your simplistic view that "well if two people can only get it 50% right, 10 people should be able to raise it to 70%, right?" reduces the problem to a linear, rational process. If anyone tells you marriage is a logical, rational, well-thought out process, I'd request him to share some of the crack he's smoking.

Often with a complex emotional issue, more people might actually hamper the situation, this isn't like trying to build a car.

Nowhere in this or elsewhere have I claimed to hold arranged marriages superior to other paths to marriage. But I do believe its not inferior to other ways of getting hitched.

True you haven't, but many that tout the 50% statistic over and over again usually do hold arranged marriage as superior.

Anyway, in the last 6 months or so he has hooked up with five or six girls across the country. It's a freakin' meat market. Boys and girls are hooking up and getting laid all on the understanding of their families that they are seriously complying with the gentle pressure to find a mate, then meeting similarly inclined people, half wanting to meet someone for marriage, half horny as hell and wanting to just have fun before the noose of marriage and the thirties come along. I chatted to someone else and he says it's the same, what a way to meet girls/boys for no strings attached fun. All undercover of course. And all those aunties and uncles thinking you are such good and nice boys and girls for doing as they say hahaha. My friend is oversexed now. Total shagfest.

To get minorily sociological about it, from what little I know UK culture is very liberal in regards to sex. And so is US culture. Out here, I'd guess if you go out on a date with someone and have any kind of chemistry, the chance of a hook up is good (although I am throw-back sidaa sadaa)....so these people are just doing what is done in our society, albeit with a hue of sepia thrown in. If John and Sally in their late 20's early 30's meet up coming from across the country, hit it off and have some chemistry, you'd make no money in Las Vegas betting against a hook-up and no one would think to say a thing about it being illicit. If Happy and Bubbles (these are real names btw) get it on, they're just being real americans all night (thats billy joel right?)

Sahej

Yeah, but I have a sneaking admiration for Happy and Bubbles driving from London to Manchester to shag each other then saying 'see ya later' all the while their conservative parents think they're being sidaa sadaa and submitting to the whole dot com matchmaking rigmarole. It's all about context, and the hormones raging underneath those happy-smiley-respectable profiles and photographs. Nothing wrong with a bit of sexual mutineering amidst the bullshit and hypocrisy of the desi marriage industry.

Amardeep, thanks for drawing attention to my little experience. And thanks for the comments, all.

Earlier, I would have protested and tried to convince/explain to people why their ideas are wrong, but I began to realize that these assumptions are SO deep-rooted that they are extremely difficult to erase. I also receive periodic reminders of how almost everything in an Indian wedding can be SO alien to Americans.

Most American friends of mine who attend a traditional Indian wedding for the first time find it a shocking experience. One of my colleagues came up to me one day and described an Indian friend's wedding she'd just been to. She was most shocked by the fact that 'The guests did not even bother to pay attention when the actual ceremony happened (the saat-pheras etc), but just continued talking and eating and stuff'.

Besides the amusing assumption that an Indian wedding with 400-500 people is HUGE, the conflation of 'arranged marriage', 'forced marriage' and 'child marriage' was really quite cringe-inducing.

One possible solution, when you guys get married the next time, do it in a somewhat traditional Indian way and invite as many Americans as you can!

'The guests did not even bother to pay attention when the actual ceremony happened (the saat-pheras etc), but just continued talking and eating and stuff'.

Because subconsciously, no one gives two shits about the two people getting married, it's about fulfilling a "debt to society"

HMF @ 50: "I think kindness, empathy, are natural qualities, no one is born an adulterer or mass murderer or anything else for that matter. It's a matter of uncovering them. Romance skills (actually I don't like that term, I prefer social dynamics) can only be acquired from test drives."

Isn't "uncovering" the EQ type skills/ qualities (such as kindness, empathy, emotional resilience etc, which you say are innate human qualities - and to which I agree with reservations) a matter of learning through the more complete web of human relationships than just romance/ dating/ "test drives"? One can be an effective/ charming "dater", and never be any further in uncovering/learning these skills, mainly because they are usually learned (and come into play) in the long run. And all this reminds me of a story of Buddha.

That said, your ciritique (@ 86) on how the "arranged marriage" system can be a deadline-based, guilt-tripping, societal pressure cooker is quite on the money .

Insted of getting frustated, one should try to "educate" others about their culture and traditions

if people were genuinely intersted in another person's culture, they would take the time to learn it themselves...

just look at how many fob's come and settle in US - it's not like they go asking ghoras directly about their religion or culture - you just learn things as you go on .. and if its something you don't understand and it doesnt really matter - well then you keep your mouth shut...

if some ghora asks you about arranged marriage, there is some sarcasm involved in the question - it's really stupid and pretentious of a ghora to ask someone if their parents will arrange their marriage for them when the desi is there with his/her girlfriend/boyfriend...

and btw, its not just in india arranged marriages are poplular.. its common in asian culture in general...

And who invented this love-marriage term anyway? Does anyone know anything about its origins, usage, etc? Is it restricted only to the desi community? I never heard an American describe their marriage as a love marriage.

And it does not seem to describe all Western marriages very well. For example, would the marriage of Anna Nicole Smith to Howard Marshall qualify as a love-marriage? Maybe love-marriages should be called self-arranged marriages, just to make it clear that the people getting married decided on their own accord. The term love-marriage imputes them a motive they may or may not have.

its David Bowie, and its Young American in the song lyric. song.

Spose I agree with you Red Snapper. Although....why not kick it all away and tell the community to go stuff it? But anyway, lets leave Happy and Bubbles to their deed!

Because subconsciously, no one gives two shits about the two people getting married, it's about fulfilling a "debt to society"

The peope attending the wedding? Not really. It's about food and aunties on the prowl.

Spose I agree with you Red Snapper. Although....why not kick it all away and tell the community to go stuff it?

Yeah, I think most people just think, screw it, save the heroics for later when you bring home a Muslim/Hindu/Sikh/Black/White boy or girl whom you want to marry. In the meantime, just do what you always do, sneak behind their back and have fun doing what men and women do, just the same way you always have done with backwards Indian parents! When you reach a certain age you realise some things arent worth the hassle and you choose your battles. Everyone does undercover things these days.

Isn't "uncovering" the EQ type skills/ qualities (such as kindness, empathy, emotional resilience etc, which you say are innate human qualities - and to which I agree with reservations) a matter of learning through the more complete web of human relationships than just romance/ dating/ "test drives"? One can be an effective/ charming "dater", and never be any further in uncovering/learning these skills, mainly because they are usually learned (and come into play) in the long run. And all this reminds me of a story of Buddha.

Sashi, I agree with you, One can be a charming dater and still be no further in the EQ type skills as you say, but the converse is not true unless one engages in "test drives." By that I mean, in order to be in a position to show a woman you are kind, empathetic and emotionally agile, the test-driven achieved skills of attraction generation, social dynamics or the more crude "gaming skills" need to be tip top. And we live in a society that expects it, but grew up in a society that essentially discourages it.

That's really all I was saying, because the women that advise their guy friends to "be themselves" to attract other women, might as as well advise them to eat their own excrement. And I sensed in your comment :

"this is not to implay that "romance" skills are not required but that they are minor, atleast in my system of thinking"

you were headed in that direction. Sorry if I read into it too far.

Tamil Iyengar boy,177/65/US$95K. Btech IIT Madras/MSCS UT Austin. Working as a software engineer in Redwood shores looking for a suitable match. Girl must be fair/tall/must play veena/know Bharat Natyam/cook rasam and be obedient. Software engineer with H1B under processing preferred. Send horoscopam and details to...

Desidawg (#85), please let me know where you found this ad. I might be eligible. IIT, UT Austin, $95, what a catch! I'm not Iyengar yet, but am willing to become one. Anyway, that was not required in the ad. I can cook much more than rasam. Fair, tall, veena, check, check, check. I'll have my brother contact his family with my...Wait, HoroscoPAM? That doesn't sound real.

And oh, I'm firm believer in obedience.

Sukanya Kurmari
Tons more at Tambrahm.com. Make sure you send a pic of those obedience handcuffs when you respond...

HMF,

I agree with practically everything you've said on this thread. I'm sure I also recall you describing the arranged marriage system as a "brain-damaged custom" on a previous discussion on the topic -- apologies if I'm mistaking you for someone else, but whoever said that was right on the money too.

Often with a complex emotional issue, more people might actually hamper the situation, this isn't like trying to build a car.

Absolutely, but the problem is that within "traditional" Indian culture and certainly from the perspective of many amongst the parents' generation, finding a suitable spouse is indeed viewed as analogous to "buying a car". Some of them even use this term.

The assumption -- and yes I know I'm preaching to the converted, but hear me out -- is that if you have two people with alleged qualities a, b, and c, and from a commoditised viewpoint they are x, y, and z (the usual stuff re: regional/religious/caste background, occupation, age, appearance etc etc), then theoretically they should be a "good match" and the marriage should therefore "work". If the latter doesn't happen, then one or both of the parties concerned are "doing something wrong", and the fault lies with them, not the system or the parents who have manouvred them into the marriage.

In reality, of course, it's not quite so simple. Unfortunately, as I've mentioned before, many of these parents have very little first-hand experience of anything other than the arranged marriage process (even if they attempt to modify it as per "modern times"), so it's very difficult indeed for them to understand the nuances involved in the alternative.

Connecting this to what you said about the necessity to "test drive" etc, this is one of those aspects of life where it's very difficult to really understand it unless one has personal experience of the matter. The same applies to the concept of genuinely falling in love with someone; the experience is impossible to imagine accurately unless one has gone through it oneself (regardless of whether one has no dating experience or whether one has an extensive prior track record in the subject).

Much of the arranged marriage system is based on guesswork and assumptions. It's based on "theoretical viability", not facts gained via direct experience. In this matter and regarding the idea of love marriages, as you know there's also a huge amount of alleged second-hand knowledge, so-called "received wisdon", and what we in Britain call "Old Wives' Tales" floating around. So you have these factors distorting people's thinking about arranged marriages and who should be compatible with whom, along with a lot of brainwashed, knee-jerk, irrational prejudice about love marriages/dating and the people who are involved in such activities.

Now, arranged marriages are an understandable response if one is living in a heavily gender-segregated society where one-on-one private interaction between unmarried people of the opposite sex is either substantially restricted or prohibited altogether. I may be wrong but I have some suspicions that, for certain historical reasons, this is how the arranged marriage system as we understand it crept into Indian culture. However, where there is no religious sanction for the custom (if this is deemed important by the people involved), where there are more appropriate alternatives which involve greater independence and freedom of action being delegated to the sons and daughters involved, and where there are no rational, mature reasons to really object to the idea, I don't see why love marriages should necessarily be such a big deal.

This is of course complicated by the fact that some quarters of Indian society (particularly amongst the older generation out here in the West) can be very irrational indeed, and various traditions are perpetuated just for the sake of it, even if they are no longer relevant or practical. For some people there's also a jingoistic angle, ie. they regard certain customs as being integral to their identity as Indians (you can include extended/joint families etc here too) even if, thinking objectively (if they're capable of doing so), they know that the tradition doesn't necessarily make sense and isn't always conducive to the well-being of the people involved; yet they will stubbornly hold onto it regardless of the havoc it causes or the inappropriate nature of the custom within Western society.

I think there's an element of intellectual laziness or arrogance (possibly both) involved too; the parents concerned do not want to go through the effort of really investigating the alternatives and dealing with the ramifications. They will also not be so willing to consider the idea of "allowing" their adult children to date because of the loss of control it would possibly involve -- control over their children and over the consequences of the actions. So you have some excessive control-freakery here too.

DesiDawg,

(Quick off-topic post)

Apologies for the confusion a few days ago on one of the previous threads. My negative opinions weren't actually directed at you and I'm sorry if I accidentally gave that impression. I did subsequently clarify matters on that thread, but I thought I should just clear things up with you again in case you hadn't read my original message.

I hope matters are okay between us in this regard.

Typo on post #101: so-called "received wisdon"; should say "received wisdom" (obviously !)

HMF @ 97: Since you have sort of finessed the "relational dynamics" skills some more from what I took them to be in your first comments; and they now, to me, seem to narrow down to "gaming" (or dating) skills. Yes, I am with your assertion that to pick up these up you have to be a "player" in the "game", so that you become more effective, polished, skilled etc. Perhaps it is time for me to sign up for a PUA course or not. ;)

I think the issue of arrnaged marriages in India is a simple relfection of agri based economy for last thousand years.

Even now, 70% of Indians live in the rural India. In the earlier days when agriculture was the only source of economy, the parents felt marrying off the kids at an early age (15-19yrs) will keep the sons from wandering away to "other" sources! and keep them tied or focussed to farming. In addition, extra hands in the field means more money!

The current generation which moved to the city like my own dad, still have those value systems! They all beleive that, upholding that beleif is correct. However the second generation like myself and million others who went to school in the urban areas with lot more contacts with girls/woman definitely have an open idea about "love" marriages. Even if themselves entered relationships in a typical Indian style I beleive, and know for sure, they have an open mind for dating.

I think this reflects the change in the economy of India, moving from agri based to service based. Also, the number of reasons when men and women come in to contact with eachother is lot more now. I still remember when I went to a collge in a rural area, many of my class mates would literally have sweat drops on their forehead when they talk to girls!

I think, in the coming days, we'll see many more datings as opposed to arranged weddings. A case in point, joint family system in India is quite dead for all practical purposes. No once can change the "change"!

Sashi:

Yes, I am with your assertion that to pick up these up you have to be a "player" in the "game", so that you become more effective, polished, skilled etc.

Sorry to drag this out even further, and don't take offense at this, but I'm surprised at two things:

1. You're male
2. You posted a link to a PUA site, most guys I know in the scene try to be as discrete as possible about it.

And lastly, I am contending that these gaming skills are vastly more important as the other more "venerable" traits of kindness, empathy, etc.. - in the initial stages. Initial stage success is a prerequisite for final stage success, but doesn't guarantee final stage success.

If you open a social interaction with kindness, empathy and "niceness" - you're shat on. Plain and simple.

If you open a social interaction with kindness, empathy and "niceness" - you're shat on. Plain and simple.

how old are ? (if i may be so bold as to ask...)

if you open a social interaction with kindness, empathy and "niceness" - you're shat on. Plain and simple.

I assume that by 'social interaction', you mean a bar or club etc. You are probably right in that context, but not in more mundane situations, I contend.

Personally, I do not consider anything fundamentally wrong with a PUA course, though it is in poor form to brag about it. At least for desi guys who did not grow up in the US, I just see it as a way of integrating into this culture better, developing the particular social skills that Indian culture does not expect, and most Americans learn by experience.

AC, I don't think it has anything to do with age or maturity or anything, though it's easy for Americans to make that accusation. Dating involves specific presentation skills, in addition to the 'nice' qualities, and I think most people in the US just take those for granted without realizing that they may have to be learned.

Of course, any tool is as good or bad as it is used or abused, so I would draw the line at using those skills to hurt or deceive people.

Of course, this is all theoretical, I haven't taken any courses yet, maybe when I get out of school and have a real job...

In response to tpgeek@89:
Most Indians find it shocking that at some American weddings the bride and groom’s families are called to dinner before the guests. It’s unthinkable at an Indian wedding, where the tradition is for the family to eat after all the guests have been fed.

Jai, #101 was excellent.

Now, arranged marriages are an understandable response if one is living in a heavily gender-segregated society where one-on-one private interaction between unmarried people of the opposite sex is either substantially restricted or prohibited altogether.

I think arranged marriage and conservatism contribute greatly to failures in "love" marriages in Desh. When a "boy" and "girl" are romantically involved, they simply cannot afford to even think of trying out anything. It's usually a battle with the families from day one, denying a chance to evaluate the question "Is he/she right for me?" with any objectivity since any wavering will be pounced upon to dissuade the two. The pressure to quickly tie the knot is high. So, people sometimes have to jump into these marragies with even less thought than the formulaic arranged marriage. After the wedding too, the behavior of the families towards the newlyweds may not be that great. The stress can add up...

For some people there's also a jingoistic angle, ie. they regard certain customs as being integral to their identity as Indians

Your phrase, "Intellectual laziness" is my favorite too to characterize the situation. I think this is at the very core of the matter. The unwillingness to leave a comfort zone of thought, culture, beliefs.

It seems to me that when there are perceived and real high costs to opting out of a marriage, information asymmetries between involving partners and parties are diffused; conversely, when costs are low or perceived to be low, information asymmetries are concentrated. The asymmetrical information itself doesn't changes but is managed by external conditions. And that is why people are semi-pack animals and very social.

Since this thread seems to just keep on goin...

for all those interested in their own slice of revenge at the invasion-of-privacy-obsession-with-skin-colour-and-self-worth-degradation-merry go round that is Shaadi.com et al, why not make yourself a fake profile and watch the fun ensue?

All you need is a mix of fugly lies and Green card glory...my profile is called called FatAndBlack, she's 4 foot 10, heavy set and has two kids from a previous relationship with a white man, but man does that $150 k lawyer's salary and NZ citizenship bring the boys home to mamma!

Plus you get to see the pics of some of the most desperate people on there since all FatAndBlack has going for her is her money and country of residence thanks to her lack of a wheatish complexion.

And yeah, some of the dirty personal messages I've received does show that there are mos' def people out there just lookin' for what Lauryn Hill perfectly termed 'that thing...' ;-)

Tashie,
You are very mean and inconsiderate. You are trivialising other people's feelings. You have just ruined my dreams of hooking up with Ms. FatAndBlack and settling down in NZ. I hate you! I was willing to overlook the fact that you were 4 foot10 and dark with two kids from a nice white man. But, it was all a joke for you. Guess what? It's your loss; I would have been a good father to your kids and prudent with your dollars. You will be alone while I'll spend my days with someone darker and richer. Ha Ha Ha. I mock you;)

Personally, I do not consider anything fundamentally wrong with a PUA course, though it is in poor form to brag about it. At least for desi guys who did not grow up in the US, I just see it as a way of integrating into this culture better, developing the particular social skills that Indian culture does not expect, and most Americans learn by experience.

Nothing is wrong with them. they just cost a #($)@*# load. i Just wished they weren't as highly publicized as they are. The enemy shouldn't know about the tactics.

At least for desi guys who did not grow up in the US, I just see it as a way of integrating into this culture better, developing the particular social skills that Indian culture does not expect, and most Americans learn by experience

what about ABCDs like myself going *to* India ? what class should I have taken?

don't think for a New York minute that it doesn't require special skill to regale a prospective suitress from the "Desh" on their home turf of India just because you had a brief stint with "Carla", the busty barrista at the Union Square starbucks who you were able to successfully peel off of a hive full of hipsters and which you now think has given you consquitadorian privelege.

it took me a box of Cham Cham and the tenderest of words to seduce my Pinky as we both sat in the back seat of her Papa's Maruti along a shaded road in New Delhi a few years ago, just days after our engagement. With an ICICI money machine nearby to which queues kept forming, I thought any attempts at seducing my little gulab jamun would be abortive at best. but after six hours of snoreplay, with beads of sweat achingly dripping off our brows, and after repeatedly repeating the obvious obviousness of it all, we finally leaned into one another and planted the EAST MEETS WEST MASALA MAGIC LIPSMACKER that sent shockwaves across the world.

i've seen sparks, but lord almighty.

snoreplay

So that's what you guys call it. Pfft...typical.

Maybe she didn't like the guy? Just a thought.

Thomas Kurma,

Re: post #111

Thank you for your response. My apologies for the delay in replying -- due to yesterday's anniversary I had felt it would be better for me to restrict my comments on SM to that topic yesterday in order to prevent any diversions on other unrelated threads, so please don't think I had ignored your post.

Your first paragraph in particular was incredibly familiar; exactly the same thing had occurred to me. It's funny how people observe identical sequences of action despite no connection between them apart from common ethnicity and despite being separated by thousands of miles. Your description was practically a textbook example of what frequently happens, including here in the UK (not always -- there are plenty of liberal, more rational older-generation Indians around here -- but it's still a fairly common experience). I was born in the UK and have spent my entire life (33 years) here, so I'm at somewhat at a loss to explain exactly what it is within society/culture back in the "Desh" which causes such behaviour. It's as though they're all hypnotised and this kind of Machiavellian gameplaying kicks in upon a suitable "trigger". Why does this happen ? Is it conditioned behaviour by their own elders, or are they just blindly copying the example of other people ? Or, as JOAT mentioned a few weeks ago, is it due to the tendency of many Indian parents to just unthinkingly perpetuate whatever ideas and behaviour they may have observed amongst their own parents, without any objective analysis and without any excessive consideration given to legitimacy or propriety ?

This usually seems just an excuse to me. As if this lends some legitimacy to their point of view.

I think that to some extent it's so that they don't have to take direct personal responsibility for their actions or their consequences -- "It's not me, it's Indian culture. This is our tradition and these are our values and customs, and we 'have' to do it this way".

Your phrase, "Intellectual laziness" is my favorite too to characterize the situation. I think this is at the very core of the matter. The unwillingness to leave a comfort zone of thought, culture, beliefs.

Spot-on. "The unknown is terrifying, requires too much effort to figure out, may well result in the person concerned making mistakes and not being able to pass the buck to "Indian culture". Stick with the familiar, even if it wreaks havoc. At least we're maintaining Indian culture, and of course plenty of other people from our (older) generation are doing the same thing and behaving the same way, which supposedly dilutes the misguidedness and badmaashi of our actions".

AC,

Great post (#116) as always. For the record, I just wanted to mention that you are one of my favourite commenters on SM; your posts are superbly written, very funny but sometimes also quite poignant. There's a strong streak of Goodness Gracious Me-style familiarity too, from a "fellow desi" point of view; I'm sure many of us recognise the situations and the behavioural traits described, even though we may not necessarily have been in those situations ourselves.

Anyway, you're a great guy and I'm sure I speak for many people here when I say that I always look forward to reading your posts ;)

jai: i just wanted to second your accolades for AC... his writing is fantastic...and brings home the garam garam dosa when need be...and yes, i'm also one that looks forward to his comments/posts because you know there is some happy masala in it.... ;)...

HMF @ 106 & technophobicgeek @ 108:

I linked to that PUA thingy as a joke, and not with the intention of outing dark secrets - besides being the perpetual geek, I first encountered that whole PUA scene via a book review a while back.

*chants verses of the Bard*

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts...

AWWW, YOU GUYS. if i didn't have the complexion of a f*****g TOOTSIE ROLL, i'd show you how much that really means to mean and blush for ya'll.

thanks

Sashi:

Thats ok, but just keep in mind there are a lot of AFCs and rAFCs out there, that are trying to sarge up some HBs, disarm the obstacles, in hopes of moving from minor IOIs to KCs and FCs. Clear?

AC,

As a Brit I have absolutely no idea what a tootsie-roll is, apart from an amusing hip-hop single a few years ago (with an equally entertaining video), but the best way you can thank us is to continue posting your usual entertaining messages here on SM and making us all smile :)

Bengali Market in New Delhi has the best Cham Cham you can imagine.

Desi weddings can be fun and there is so much yummy food to chose from. I never turn down an invite!

Technology has changed the way the world mates now. Even in a very small, conservative, even "orthodox", if you will, location such as the one I am in, I often find young women in their teens and early twenties, what are referred to as "bheinjis", seeking prospective mates online, even their net navigating skills are not so developed. I'm assuming they don't want to be stuck with the local "boys" their parents would be arranging for them, or perhaps they are without an elder in the family who is taking on the responsiblity of finding them a groom, so they take control of the situation themselves.

I think the net affords many people an oppurtunity for romance which may have not been available before.

jai, here is a tootsie roll (good old american candy--trust me, the brits have it better with smarties, real cadbury and kitkat not to mention crunchie, flake, and the other hoopla.. oh how can i forget my wine gums? :)) and here is a old TV commerical.. how many licks does it take to get to the center of the tootsie roll? :)

Here's a little something regarding arranged marriages; http://www.zackvision.com/weblog/2003/06/arranged-marriage.html

The argument that arranged marriages are more successful because they don't end in divoce, well, most people in USA over the age of 70 are not divorced either, but yet they did not have an arranged marriage. It has to do with alot of other social factors, psychological factors, etc.

I don't know how to properly insert links here so maybe a Mutineer could do that for me. Here's another link regarding the union of a Nepali Hindu woman with an American gora (may or may not be Hindu), at a "traditional vedic ceremony" conducted by an American gora hindu panda (priest).

http://www.chakra.org/announcements/persSep02_06.html

Yeah, I just wanted to second the AC-accolades.

Awesome, awesome writing that puts the fo-shizzle into fob :)

Go AC, love your posts. And brown people can brush, we just turn kinda purple-y...strange but true.

Chickpea thanks for the Tootsie Roll links; I'd heard of them but didn't really know what they were.

I won't comment on your last sentence since I'm trying to keep it clean these days; trust me, it was an effort not to make any badmaash remarks about masala dosas and their "special spicy filling" on another recent thread too ;)

"I have merged into the indigo fabric of the exotically embroidered sari known as "India". "

Ahhhhhhhh I love that line. One of my best.

It was inspired by all the mango, curry, henna-palmed, sari-bordered comments here on Sepia. Do you think I can peddle chick lit as easily those neo desi authoresses?

I tried to link my blog here with my name like y'all do but was unable. Advice please.

Thanks for the blog prop! I need some action over there.

"Do you think I can peddle chick lit as easily those neo desi authoresses?"

Probably not. Or maybe. There's no accounting for taste.

Pardesi Gori,

The earlier comments were closed for a reason. Let's let that discussion lie, instead of bringing it into other threads.

Duh! It's obvious that this so-called "Pardesi Gori" is an attempt by the inventors of "lonelygirl15" to invade the brown market.

Can someone please explain to me, whenever somoene takes issue with an opposite sex member's, why does the explanation always crumble to, "You two must want each other"?

Can someone please explain to me, whenever somoene takes issue with an opposite sex member's comments, why does the explanation always crumble to, "You two must want each other"?

Duh! It's obvious that this so-called "Pardesi Gori" is an attempt by the inventors of "lonelygirl15" to invade the brown market.

Ha! She's really a Kiwi?

We're not talking about one-time occurrence in which Bidi called out PG/BS. We're talking about a never-ending bitchfest that has been going on here (and on Bidi's blog) for what feels like several weeks now. And it is getting pretty damn tiresome.

I feel compelled to intervene now-- if I weren't LIVING at my new job, I'd be calling plenty out as well. I've never read Bidi's blog and for the first time in the existence of this, my sepia baby, I am NOT caught up on all comments, so I can't vouch for everything he's written, but I share his frustration.

As Kobayashi-san pointed out, Siddhartha confronted her before Gautham did. If SIDDHARTHA (who happens to be a teddy bear spun from sugar if you couldn't tell) was vexed, that is very telling, not to mention anomalous. It's getting pretty damn tiresome all right, but by "it" I don't mean Bidior any other callers-out.

Now if you'll excuse me, I must take a nap under my desk because beta, it loometh.

Ha! She's really a Kiwi?

Yep, she's from the land of that evil Sauron dude.

and dude, if you think Bidi and me are the same you're way WAY off. WAAY off your rocker.

I think Pardesi Gori is all right. Its all been said before, and its lost its sting. Nobody cares anymore about arranged blah blah blah; its just an ice-breaker type comment. Its not that big a deal. And tabla dude, who knows maybe he had a crush on the wedding bahu. I think its A.G. at this point, we made it through the stereotype macacca adolescence where we didn't like our desi-ness and people thought we smelled like curry. People like curry now. Yay! Top of the world ma!

Ha! She's really a Kiwi? Yep, she's from the land of that evil Sauron dude

What's with the Kiwi bashing? I don't get it but it's not nice :P Boo

my thing, is why do indian men date or see women they may be in love with but will leave for various reasons?

replace the word "indian" in the sentence above with any other ethnicity you can think of (including white) and you will have your answer. The answer to most such questions lie here.

mrrsmith,

i second mad lib. its a person thing. mad people aren't able to commit and some of them make stupid choices until they mature. if i had a nickel for everytime someone did something romantically that made sense before they turned 30....can you spare some change?

mrssmith. Are you married?

"but i think alot of south asian men and women say they can do as they please but do they. point blank, i really don't see alot of mixed indian/american couples around."

Your story sucks, but maybe these people you are observing ARE doing as they please and prefer to be with other desi people. We've had long discussions about the topic (here on the Mutiny) and it seems like most desi's (read of south asian ancestry) do want to sincerely be with people from the same cultural background for many complex reasons - not superficial. And if he really loved you, vice versa, he wouldn't have done what he did. I'm not saying you deserved such ill treatment, but what you thought was a lasting love and friendship wasn't... or he wouldn't have done that. It sucks to feel "had" but based on what I know from your story, he really did take you for a ride.

Also, with regards to your comment:
"point blank, i really don't see alot of mixed indian/american couples around."

Did ya know that you can be desi (S.A. ancestry) and born in the U.S.? Thus making a desi person (as you stated, asian) an American as well? American does not equal white. And non-white does not necessarily apply non-American. Therefore, you and your previous boyfriend (he was born in the U.S. right?) an American/American couple. Maybe what you REALLY meant was "desi/white" couple.

mad lib curious but what is your story? why did you go to the link you gave. let the girl be.

Mrssmith:

I have to admit, I'm a bit offended by your commentary, because on the one hand you claim offense at other people "simplifying a complex situation," and yet you're trying to generalize and explain (and also in some odd way, accuse) the horrors of your own breakup with...race.

I have some strong suspicions about how this relationship played out, because it's a familiar story to me personally. It sounds like you're still very upset with the situation, though...probably not the right time to talk about it for you, especially in this very public (and largely brown!) forum.

Mrssmith,

I would be the "one person." And the reason I said that was because I am an Indian-American male, and have dated non-Indians as well as Indians. And I'm even divorced, too. I think I have perspective in effin' spades.

Perhaps you simply and unfortunately picked the wrong thread. Try this one out instead.

Best of luck, and hopefully things will go better for you soon. If that brown was bad to you, remember: there are other fish in the sea, and they come in all kinds of colors.

[Admin note: All of Mrs. Smiths comments have been deleted at her request]

Go to this web site

http://www.twinproduction.com

and click on Gallery

See for you self

Lots of Video from USA Wedding NJ NY www.twinproduction.com

Mr. Anand -

for you to post a link that directs me to a website where one can browse a veritable catalog of dolled-up desi girls in mid-rumpshake at their respective weddings as they share the most intimate of details, including "group dance", "mendhi" and "belly dancing" , is part pervy, part disturbing and wholly questionable.

scumbag

(thank you)

I know this post is an older one, but I came across it randomly and found it very interesting.....

""assisting" might be a more accurate way to describe it"...

HA! I will agree that this is sometimes accurate, but I guess it all depends on how the "assistee" perceives said "assistance"...for example, being born and raised in Canada, and coming home from work one day, to have your father tell you "You're going to be 27 this year, we've already waited too long. Come this summer, we're going to put you on every website, and have you engaged before the end of the year"....well that feels a little more "hands-on" than what you'd define as "assistance", haha...

Hmmm....and my response to that time-line? Well my answer was the obvious "nod and leave the room" (so as to avoid an actual confrontation, since "under rug swept" is usually the way to go), but other than that, well let's just say I'm one of the few Canadians who doesn't mind if it takes a little longer to get to Summer 2008... ;-)