This is not surprising. I'm sure this is how most Americans view Indians and arranged marriage. They're just usually smart enough not to talk about it in front of other Indians.

On a related note, my parents are currently seeking a fair, tall, thin girl that makes excellent masala dosa and is healthy enough to crank out sons at rapid fire. Those interested, please send picture, biodata, income information, caste certificate, college diploma, board exam results, and at least three independent references.

As for why the bride wasn’t smiling: uncomfortable outfit? Awkward hair? Cultural expectation?

It's just protocol isnt it? The lady is supposed to look sad, and the man must look mature and responsible and stoical, all the while bursting with excitement inside at the hours count down to the peace of the hotel room where they can banish the masses of aunty-dom and uncle-dom and ravish one another.

At least that is what my friend-girls tell me.

On the other hand, it could be just to confuse and trick white dudes in the vicinity just for the hell of it.

Hmmm. Something that I noticed in my first couple of years in Canada was that at most parties/dinners, I would get the "are you going to have an arranged marriage" question at least once in the course of the evening - still happens sometimes.

argh. not surprising, since it was overheard at a drum circle. i should note that i am a percussionist, and specialize in the drums of the middle east (at least as much as i can i guess) and i stay the hell away from those drum circles. THE HELL AWAY.......i am trying to change my perspective (macaca!) but it still makes me mad as all get out.

most of the weddings I have been to both the bride and groom look bored, not sad...

I think ceremonies should be shorter (cliff notes versions?) and maybe explained better to non-sanskrit speakers :P

As for why the bride wasn’t smiling: uncomfortable outfit? Awkward hair? Cultural expectation?

*grinning* my other half refrains from having the obligatory wedding pic on his desk at work because I look like I'm ready to kill someone in all of our wedding pics. The reason? No, not the outfit (though all told, the sari & acoutrements added a good 20 pounds to my frame), not the hair (the stylist did a damn good job making sure it felt right, even with the tikli), and definitely not cultural expectation (other half's desi by association, not birth or upbringing.)

No, it was because the damn photographers were more like paparazzi, and would stop the ceremony just to get a cool, posed shot. I finally explained to them that they were fired if I didn't get candid action shots.

One of the things that strikes me, and I recognize I'm making a huge assumption about the Intstructor's political beliefs based on his activities and manners of speaking, but it just continues to point out that in America, those who consider themselves liberal are not necessarily any more enlightened about other cultures. It reminds me of the infamous Hillary and Biden comments.

The 12-year-old comment is &($#@ up though.

To most Americans, all other cultures are mysteries, even European countries, all the more so for Asian countries. The US is a mass culture exporter, much to the detriment of us ghora understanding other people.

Thank you Amardeep! It's frustrating when you have to repeatedly explain to people the difference between "arranged" and "forced". Then again, to be fair, a lot of people in India believe all "love marriages" end in divorce.

As far as the age of the bride is concerned, of course this is limited to my personal observation, women both in America and India seem to get married around the same age while men seem to get married earlier around here. I've seen data for age at first marriage in the US, does anyone have recent data on the same in India?

I'll say it again, we need to start incorporating the term "self-arranged"... ;)

As to the not smiling part, if you're wearing a 10 lb. dupatta with gold-wire embroidery that scratches like a briar bush if you so much as blink... well you'd not be smiling either.

An arranged marriage may not be forced but it's no less ghastly. The majority of such marriages are between two largely incompatible people.

there was a time i would get all defensive - "actually... things are changing. no... of course not". like tpgeek above - i keep shut... unless they tread on me. then the right attitude to take is that the guy insulted my parents... really... it's a powerful mental picture to get medieval.

"oh, so you are going back to india to find a girl" - from obnoxious know-it-all in leisure suit.

"so, do your parents know about this?" - from 'best friend' of girl i was dating.

"are your parents planning to live with you later?" - from another 'best friend' of girl.

"are you a canadian citizen" -from a potential 'get-into-relationship' person.

"you're going to find a girl in india right. I hear indian girls are all virgins before they're married", etc. etc.

and all this is based on something theyve read in a book, or seen on tv, or for heck;s sake heard as a rant from some indic person.

listen!! if you have nothing positive to say about indic folk, keep your jalebihole SHUT and help me procreate. this isnt polite chitchat it's intended to put you on the backfoot and have you disavow your indicity. there is no need to defend or illuminate - tpgeek had the right idea.

Hairy D, if you're offended by a comment, it's better to say something than not. This festering medieval hatred approach is not really healthy.

BTW When you say "help me procreate," what are you talking about?

"An arranged marriage may not be forced but it's no less ghastly. The majority of such marriages are between two largely incompatible people."

Exactly. It is my opinion that this practice should be dismantled, anyone who practices or pushes it on their children, in my most humble, quasi-informed, data-less, unscholastic view, should be held accountable for a crime against humanity.

I'll say it again, we need to start incorporating the term "self-arranged"... ;)

Love it. Or we can go with "divinely arranged" as Mitali Perkins recently celebrated on her blog.

Great post.
Two questions I usually get related to Indian weddings are:

a) Are they all arranged?
b) Are they like the one in Monsoon Wedding?

this isnt polite chitchat it's intended to put you on the backfoot and have you disavow your indicity.

Quite often I get the impression that people do not realize I might be offended, or do realize but have some morbid fascination with Indian weddings and just can't control themselves.

Hairy D, if you're offended by a comment, it's better to say something than not. This festering medieval hatred approach is not really healthy. BTW When you say "help me procreate," what are you talking about?

the keep quiet was directed at all the SM commenters who've lamented their personal relationships or experiences with indians on this forum. in statistical terms, these indic representatives are probably the "focus group" to learn about all things indian for their respective communities . recall all the times you've heard, "i've heard from my eendian friend joti that you guys etc.".

So I am requesting SM community's help in projecting a postivie image of where we come from - so for please please please.. i do not need to go on the defensive on a date. it's not a good conversation piece.

"Look sad! Indian bride never smiles! You'll ruin the bloody video!" - Bend it Like Beckham

What the heck do these people think Match.com is? (No no, I mean other than dreadful.) Or setups by their friends and relatives? A series of random collisions?

My response to such questions is - "Let me educate you a little bit..it'll come in handy".

'did your parents promise you to someone when you were 5 years old' is something i get all the time.
maybe it's a southern thing.
who the hell knows.

fantastic.
super duper.
but of course.

i was betrothed to someone in a mubmai playground as we were both playing in a sandbox with our empty limca bottles. our parents discussed our futures while eating pani puri from the local stand. they were debating the dowry. should it be 55 cows or 550 kilos of basmati rice? isn't it obvious?

p.s. but of course, i saw in hindsight it was pretty barbaric and took it on my own accord by having my own marriage pact ;).

O BTW - there's a whole bunch of smileys in my post #16 above...

An arranged marriage may not be forced but it's no less ghastly. The majority of such marriages are between two largely incompatible people."

Exactly. It is my opinion that this practice should be dismantled, anyone who practices or pushes it on their children, in my most humble, quasi-informed, data-less, unscholastic view, should be held accountable for a crime against humanity

Well a lot of arranged marriages in India are between two largely incompatible people and they don't necessarily find it out a few days after the wedding. Sometimes it takes longer. But that's not the problem. The big problem is that such marriages are usually closed-end with no getting-out option. Divorce is unheard or unthought of. Your own well wishers won't let you. Usually it's the girl who is miserable but puts up with her lot. That's where the difference with the West or big cities in India .

An arranged marriage may not be forced but it's no less ghastly. The majority of such marriages are between two largely incompatible people.

I think this is a gross generalization, and I think the latter part could also be applied to many, many "love" marriages that I have witnessed. My parents had an arranged marriage (neither was forced or coerced), and they are a lot happier than most of the people in the town I grew up in. In fact, all most all my friends' parents are now divorced. I'm not saying this is a rule, but I think there are more factors at play than if someone met in a bar or through their parents

I think I gone from "Actually, its not exactly so..." to "Teri macaca!.." in 10 yrs time. And all those dissing arranged marriages, hope that's in jest 'cos in this big free-will/willy culture of the us of a, success rate is consistent with a flip of the coin, so how can arranges get any worse? Either way its see-if-the-cowpat-sticks.

And damn this - the bride didn't smile hence they all must gangr**e her - attitude. Whether she smiles or not is none of your damn-f*****g biz. Donn 'the mask' and smile like a hyena at your wedding but don't push your cutural view on someone else. I also don't like to parade nude in front of strangers in a shower but that doesn't mean I'm prude. I can appreciate that that's what *you* want to do.

Other than that, in the unimitable words of Ari- let's hug it out, b***h!!

I think this is a gross generalization, and I think the latter part could also be applied to many, many "love" marriages that I have witnessed.

Gautam,
I have to respectfully disagree. Most arranged marriages do not end in divorce because there is no exit option in Indian society. There is no such "safety net" in "love marriages" and that's why you see a lot more people from your town divorced. You should be celebrating their right to get out of unhappy and often abusive relationships not berating "love marriage" as being on par with arranged marriage.

M&A deals have a "due diligence" phase. Car dealers have a "test drive" and yet desis even today enter into the most important thing in their life blindfolded. Don't do your due diligence or test drive well you have a lemon on your hands!

success rate is consistent with a flip of the coin, so how can arranges get any worse?

The 50% statistic is an aggregate figure. The "success" rate actually climbs when taking certain things into account (education level, age when getting married, income, etc..) link.

And I place "success" in quotes because it's not a binary decision - that is, lack of divorce does not necessarily imply success (as is the case in many Indian marriages, where divorce did not occur, but it can't be considered a success by any stretch of the word. [at any level of "arrangement", assisting etc.])

"M&A deals have a "due diligence" phase. Car dealers have a "test drive" and yet desis even today enter into the most important thing in their life blindfolded. Don't do your due diligence or test drive well you have a lemon on your hands!"

I'm in total agreement here. Indian culture got many things right, but this is something for the most part, they got dead wrong To put it in the most scientific of terms, to not acquire necessary social dynamics training before undertaking the most crucial and pivotal social decision a person can make, it's much like walking into a rock climbing shop, buying a harness, rope and clips for the first time, then marching over to mount everest and start climbing.

HMF:

to put it in the most scientific of terms, to not acquire necessary social dynamics training before undertaking the most crucial and pivotal social decision a person can make.

I don't know how many times I heard this said in India, that you marry a family, and not a person. I might be willing to argue that, in conventioal Indian thinking, which is fortunately changing, the family, not the person, is the smallest unit of measure. Noice how its the 'khandaan's izzat', and not an aadmi's/aurat's izzat, that is always at stake in an Indian movie.

The interesting thing about this post--and this is a common SM theme--is the notion that cultural ignorance is not only offensive, but perhaps a sign of latent racism. Mutineers often take umbrage when Americans are so unfamiliar with our culture that they must resort to stereotype, as if they should be familiar and as if we do not do the same with foreign cultures. Just a quick glimpse of some of the comments made on this site about white southerners should tell us differently.

Interestingly, Amardeep threads close to stereotyping with this:

Come on guys, get over it: learn something about the culture of the people who invented the tabla you’ve learned to play.

OK, it's a positive stereotype but a stereotype nonetheless, that--like the notion that all Desis are well educated overachievers-- "laid back" artistic types are culturally sensitive, nonjudgmental, and open to new ideas. C'mon Amardeep, you are--like those who use the "model minority myth"--oppressing those artists who cannot live up to these standards.

success rate is consistent with a flip of the coin, so how can arranges get any worse?

The 50% statistic is an aggregate figure. The "success" rate actually climbs when taking certain things into account (education level, age when getting married, income, etc..) link.

And I place "success" in quotes because it's not a binary decision - that is, lack of divorce does not necessarily imply success (as is the case in many Indian marriages, where divorce did not occur, but it can't be considered a success by any stretch of the word. [at any level of "arrangement", assisting etc.])

Never said that. see my comment above and below.

I have to respectfully disagree. Most arranged marriages do not end in divorce because there is no exit option in Indian society. There is no such "safety net" in "love marriages" and that's why you see a lot more people from your town divorced. You should be celebrating their right to get out of unhappy and often abusive relationships not berating "love marriage" as being on par with arranged marriage.

I knew this argument would be made. HMF, why wouldn't aggregate figure suffice? It represents hundreds of million of humanity. Any success rate climbers would apply similarly anywhere, if not, a bunch of factors put together for different cultural situations would again aggregate everything out.

I didn't argue that arranged marriages are necessarily better. Only that the most free-will of decisions still only has a near 50% chance, so why would counting only happy arranged marriages would find a number inferior to 50%? If you're implying that odds for arranged marriages to be happy are worse than those for self-arranged, that would mean that when more people than the principals get involved in helping them out, they're likely to make the principals miserable.

How can that be true? If random chance is 50%, then concerted effort would be more likely to produce better than those odds. If concerted effort by 2 people still results in close to 50%, then concerted effort by more than 2 people for them should result in better odds, not worse.

DesiDawg @ 26 & HMF @ 28:

No amount of "due diligence" or a number of "test drives" are good enough guarantors that it will all work out; in other words these may be "necessary" conditions for some folks to "jump da broom" but not these are not "sufficient" conditions to ensure that the eventual marriage is a lemon or not. Besides, if you look at the kind of hard nosed scrutiny and data collection (too business like/ CIA like even) that folks are subjected to (at least in India; once my parents were out of town, and I had to field a telephone call from a distant uncle of a potential groom who wanted to talk to my father about the general behaviour and demeanor of a girl who lived down the street) under arranged marriages.

All this, discounting the issue of how initial conditions ("due diligence" and "test drives") are really not all that accurate in predicting what will be the final state which the complex system (marriage) will attain. Finally, there was this 2002 study put out by the National Marriage Project @ Rutgers Univ, which indicated (I haven't re-read it since then) that "a careful review of the available social science evidence suggests that living together is not a good way to prepare for marriage or to avoid divorce". Also here is a well written (& recent) blog post on this subject.

Just some more food for thought.

Just a quick glimpse of some of the comments made on this site about white southerners should tell us differently.

You hit it on the nail! Here's another;

I also don't like to parade nude in front of strangers in a shower but that doesn't mean I'm prude. I can appreciate that that's what *you* want to do.

she wasn't smiling because those ignorant white muvs couldn't play the tabla for shit! i was at that wedding and the guy's dagga sounded like me tapping on the top of a poland spring bottle. boo hiss boo.

Manju, I agree. Particularly in regard to southern 'rednecks', a lot of mutineers don't seem to have any problem making gross assumptions.

I'm genuinely unsure why everyone gets riled at the arranged marriage questions, when the vast majority of INDIAN, much less American!, popular media fetishizes this institution and often emphasizes its most negative manifestations. (Just consider the overstated theme of forced marriage in Bollywood films, for instance.) Monsoon Wedding and Bend it Like Beckham certainly reinforced some of the misperceptions about arranged marriages. Why would you expect most non-desis to realize these films should be taken with a grain of salt? Certainly Hollywood seems to be taken as an accurate representation of American culture by many people in India.

In short -- expecting everyone to have done the research themselves ignores the fact that there are tons of different cultural, religious, and ethnic groups in the USA, and time is short. Do your friends and importunate questioners a favor and enlighten them yourselves by taking and replying to their question the way it was probably meant -- curiously, and harmlessly. I just don't think this is a credible enough issue to resent people for.

My response to such questions is - "Let me educate you a little bit..it'll come in handy".

uh... i dont think educating someone while on a date is the right icebreaker. it goes into the next stereotype of indian males "clean my office, indian voman! evil laughter ... which isnt untrue... i am as assertive as the next guy - but i'd like the other to be confidently counter-assertive rather than lay a guilt-trip on me - which is just downright underhanded.

sigh... i wish GGM would come to the US ... life would be so much simpler... :-/

Nice post Simran.

Insted of getting frustated, one should try to "educate" others about their culture and traditions.

"HMF, why wouldn't aggregate figure suffice? "

Because if we restrict the discussion to Indians/desis growing up in the US, the 50% figure gets tossed out the window. And the link I quoted also went on to state the 50% rate is more indicative of past performance, rather than future behavior.

"I didn't argue that arranged marriages are necessarily better. "

Thats the implication.

"Only that the most free-will of decisions still only has a near 50% chance, so why would counting only happy arranged marriages would find a number inferior to 50%?"

I'm not only counting "happy" marriages and then turning around and stating "look they're happy!" I'm taking into account factors like waiting until your over 25, waiting until your financially stable, waiting until you're at peace with your chosen life direction, and many other factors.

"If random chance is 50%, then concerted effort would be more likely to produce better than those odds. If concerted effort by 2 people still results in close to 50%, then concerted effort by more than 2 people for them should result in better odds, not worse."

Ever heard the saying "too many cooks spoil the broth?" Emotional issues, and person to person relations are non-linear processes. You most certainly cannot say 2 people give X amount of help to creating a lasting decision, therefore 20 people will contibute 10X, or something like that. Even making a general statement like "better odds, not worse" is not completely obvious and unproblematic.

One must really delve into the nature of why families get so involved, I argue it's not for the ultimate benefit of the individuals at hand, rather for the benefit of society at large. and that's where your linear progression argument breaks down. Now, this relates to sakshi's comment about marrying a family and not a person - implicit in this is, the individuals needs and desires take a back seat to towing the line.

Sashi:
"No amount of "due diligence" or a number of "test drives" are good enough guarantors that it will all work out"

"a careful review of the available social science evidence suggests that living together is not a good way to prepare for marriage or to avoid divorce""

But people test drive cars and practice due diligence anyway, right? Pre-marital co-habitation is one method, not the only one. I believe that social dynamics, relationship maintenance, connecting emotionally, or as the ubiquitous female buzzword "chemistry" are skills like any other - playing piano, riding bikes, solving differential equations - and can only develop with practice. To those that recoil and say "No way! You make it too serious and scientific bla bla" I call them naturals, they naturally develop those skills, and rarely have to think of their mechanics. But make no mistake.. they ARE skills.

I see no logic in a society that decries people developing these skills, then expects them to be masters at the drop of a hat... Nearly every "aunty" and "uncle" that I've spoken too (those open minded enough to even have this discussion) agrees with me.

I'm not sure I find such comments offensive, amusing maybe, but not offensive. Esp. since much of what is true for us today w/r/t marriage, dating etc. has only been true for the past generation or so. Yeah, WE know about it b/c we have direct exposure to the change in ideas and practices that has happened so quickly (just 1 generation in my family), but why would others know that at all unless they personally knew brown folks who defied the traditional image (and most Americans, be they white, black, etc. do not personally know brown people at all given we are still a small fraction of the overall pop.)?

I think the reactions here could afford to be a bit less knee-jerk and maybe a bit more understanding of the other in this case.

"Look sad! Indian bride never smiles! You'll ruin the bloody video!" - Bend it Like Beckham

lol maisnon -- you beat me to it!

I also am not claiming that arranged marriage is perfect, but as Amardeep pointed out, forced marriage is extremely rare among second generation Indians and even urban middle and upperclasses in India now. There's stigma attached to the idea of meeting someone through family that is not always jsutified. I oppose forcing someone to marry as much as anyone else; but I also think it is disrespectful to my parents and the thousands of other happily married arranged couples to say that they were somehow "wrong" to choose the path they did. As for the socio-economic argument, it's actually only true to a point. Statistics show that those with the highest levels of education and income tend to get divorced at high rates as well. I don't like how peopel view this issue as some sort of dichotomy, where Indians have it wrong and the West has it right. There is obviously things wrong with both systems; the fact that marriage in America has become basically a temporary arrangement is a good indication of this.

I attended some 4-5 wedding during my last trip to India.
A fairly new concept that I saw in all these marraiges was that of "DJ" and "dance floor".
Friend and family made sure that the bride and groom did shake their booty on the dance floor.
btw..all the brides that I saw were "happy" and smiling.

I think the reactions here could afford to be a bit less knee-jerk and maybe a bit more understanding of the other in this case.

NEVER...

Sound the gongs. Rouse the hounds. Take to the streets.

IT's clobber MUTINY-time!!!

I believe that social dynamics, relationship maintenance, connecting emotionally, or as the ubiquitous female buzzword "chemistry" are skills like any other - playing piano, riding bikes, solving differential equations - and can only develop with practice.

However, these skills are not taught in systematic way in our childhood, in schools, or in families. Rather, the first 10--20 years of our adulthood is spent in learning these skills. In other words, we learn these skills after our careers begin or after our marriages begin. It is nothing to do with arranged marriages or love marriages.

"Look sad! Indian bride never smiles! You'll ruin the bloody video!" - Bend it Like Beckham

Exactly, my friend. Exactly.

HMF @ 38: I agree with the point you make regarding development of "relational" skills. That said, I think these are skills (I am thinking of kindness, empathy, emotional resilience etc more than the skills required to "romance" effectively - this is not to implay that "romance" skills are not required but that they are minor, atleast in my system of thinking) that someone accquires (or learns over) a lifetime from his/her entire web of relationships (family, friendships, work relationship etc), and not necessarily from "test drives" alone. Again, as you said, not every one has to "test drive" in order to learn the "soft" skills required for great marriages - they can acqure from other sources as well.

but I also think it is disrespectful to my parents and the thousands of other happily married arranged couples to say that they were somehow "wrong" to choose the path they did.

Absolutely correct except for the very last part. The problem is that many people are not given a "choice" in exactly which marriage path to take -- it's either the arranged-marriage route or nothing. This point is particularly relevant with regards to what happened amongst the parents' generation, but it still frequently applies to many 2nd-Gen South Asians in the West too.

Less so these days, at least here in the UK (amongst Hindus & Sikhs if not necessarily Muslims), but it's still an issue in some quarters.

I fail to understand why anyone would expect people who do not come from cultures where arranged marriages are the norm, to understand the dynamics of the different kinds of arranged marriages.

It's like me going to a small village in Rajasthan and expecting the people to understand the complexities of the American dating scene. It is something unknown to them and hence a curiosity in which they will have many misunderstandings.

How many times have I been asked, no, told - "so, there is free sex in America." I'm like um, no, nothing is free in American except for internet use in libraries.

Come on!

No one will understand these things unless they are exposed to them.

Why should someone who is not exposed to something be expected to "get it".

It is up to us, the people who HAVE BEEN EXPOSED, to explain the hows, whys, whats, when and wheres of such things.

There are reasons for everything a human being does. Often times the very same reason is why two different human beings do OPPOSITE things.

Example;

I'm asked several times why in America grown children "abandon" their parents to live on their own. I explain that while in India a young man's responsibility is proven by staying on in the house of his parents and taking over their previous responsibilities of running the household, in America, a young man or woman's responsibility is proven by moving out and getting a job and place of their own. The reason is more or less the same - proving adult responsibility, but the outcome or action takes a different form.

The form is different because the cultures and environments are different.

It is not true that the average age of Americans and Indians entering into marriage is about the same. For educated people - yes. But that is not taking into account India's millions of rural, less educated folk - a group that seems to be often overlooked in comments on internet forums. Those people are still marrying in their teens and younger, by the millions.

Ask any of the domestic workers in the homes you stay in when visiting India at what age were they married. My experience in asking this question is all under the age of 18.

Very young marriages were also common in USA not too long ago. My grandmother was married at 14 and my grandfather was in his twenties. Nowadays this would be considered a crime and my grandfather locked up.

#48, spoken like a true Sage. Great comment.

"HMF @ 38: I agree with the point you make regarding development of "relational" skills. That said, I think these are skills (I am thinking of kindness, empathy, emotional resilience etc more than the skills required to "romance" effectively - this is not to implay that "romance" skills are not required but that they are minor, atleast in my system of thinking) that someone accquires (or learns over) a lifetime from his/her entire web of relationships (family, friendships, work relationship etc), and not necessarily from "test drives" alone. Again, as you said, not every one has to "test drive" in order to learn the "soft" skills required for great marriages - they can acqure from other sources as well."

You must be a woman (if you're not, don't take offense, a lot of women think this way) I think kindness, empathy, are natural qualities, no one is born an adulterer or mass murderer or anything else for that matter. It's a matter of uncovering them. Romance skills (actually I don't like that term, I prefer social dynamics) can only be acquired from test drives. Just "being yourself" is worthless as a pile of fly ridden dog shit. And I also make the point that India has an in-built systematic tendancy to supress said development, in so far as I know.

Why should someone who is not exposed to something be expected to "get it".

Then what the hell were they doing in a drum circle playing tablas? (I'm with deb in the drum circle hating.)

Shruti, I fai to see the connection between drum circles and having knowledge about arranged marraiges.

Drum circles are for drumming.

ah, our friend Pardesi Gori has returned in a new form with a new moniker. How long before we start hearing how terrible all Indian men are, which is why arranged marriage is necessary?

Gautam, for some men that may definetly be true. But I am not against arranged marraiges. I think they are a reasonable option.

In fact, I know several non-Indians who wish some sort of system like that was available as an option to them.

The problem is though, when one has high expectations, or too many expectations, dating on one's own or meeting "suitable boys and girls" through family connections becomes a ferris wheel. You just keep going round and round and round hoping you will meet the perfect one until one day you realize you are old(er) and lonely and should have just "settled" for one of them.

This is common amongst both desis and par-desis in their say, mid to late thirties.

The problem is though, when one has high expectations, or too many expectations, dating on one's own or meeting "suitable boys and girls" through family connections becomes a ferris wheel. You just keep going round and round and round hoping you will meet the perfect one until one day you realize you are old(er) and lonely and should have just "settled" for one of them.

Isn't this true of every culture? Isn't that why Internet dating has exploded here? I fail to see how this is a uniquely Indian situation.

In every culture, people that are attractive or wealthy are the most prized as mates. Often, it is some type of exchange, as in a very attractive girl will marry a less attractive guy because he is wealthy, or vice versa. Everyone also likes to believe they are more desirable than they are. This isn't restricted to arranged marriage; I know a lot of brown people in their 30s here that consider arranged marriage once they figure out that they aren't going to meet Mr or Ms. Right and want someone that fits their definition of acceptable. or "suitable" if you will.

Gautam, I clarified above I was speaking of both desis and pardesis.

Just a quick glimpse of some of the comments made on this site about white southerners should tell us differently.

You hit it on the nail! Here's another;

"I also don't like to parade nude in front of strangers in a shower but that doesn't mean I'm prude. I can appreciate that that's what *you* want to do."

Jilted manhood, I don't understand how the statement about communal showering displays something racist/ignorant about white southerners or 'rednecks' or whichever group. Can you explain?

Manju, there may be comments diplaying similar ignorance on this site, but in context of THIS discussion, I didn't see any. Sure dumb comments abound across any human group, but this particular thread is about one particular specific interaction, and its existence doesn't automatically mean desis here are propogating the 'model minority myth' or whatever. And I didn't see signs of latent racism in this post. It was simply an ignorant person making totally preventable ignorant comments. C'mon!

HMF, I think you're not responding to the simple question I posed. I'll rephrase it here. I don't have anything more to add.

Why do you think arranged marriages are simply an inferior way of getting married, in comparison to self-arranged ones?

Let me simplify, and repeat: There is no evidence that free-will marriages as seen in the usa (or anywhere else) for example, have a higher success rate than arranged marriages as seen in india (or anywhere else) for example. In addition, since free-will has a 50% chance of succeeding, it appears to me that its no better than flip of a coin, hence, it makes sense that other methods be in action, in effort to produce a better result. This is why I believe your viewpoint in dissing the arranged marriage concept is wrong.

Nowhere in this or elsewhere have I claimed to hold arranged marriages superior to other paths to marriage. But I do believe its not inferior to other ways of getting hitched.

One take on the no smiling....

If you read alot of Indian epics, folklore, etc, a common theme is "lajja bhushana stri", shyness is the ornament of a woman. Many stories are built around this. I think this is why you will find a general sort of reservedness in some Indian women in public and it is considered by some Indians from various regions and cultural backgrounds to be "too bold" for a woman to smile, laugh, dance at her own wedding. At such weddings you will not find men and women dancing together but the women in one group, men in another. Not all weddings in India are like this by any means. However many are. It depends on the people, their cultural background, social conditionings,belief systems, etc. A good sanskrit word that sums up the above is "samskars" or psychological impressions gained over a lifetime.

It is not uncommon to find women in India who feel that to even initiate sexual contact with their husbands first is taboo. Again this ties into "lajja bhushana stri".

The same things could be said for women across many cultures, but we are talking of an Indian wedding and therefore I remain India specific and am sharing with you what has come into my circle of experience only.

Jilted manhood, I don't understand how the statement about communal showering displays something racist/ignorant about white southerners or 'rednecks' or whichever group. Can you explain?

I didn't mean you were being contemptuous of Rednecks in particlular. But I did think you were hinting on the allegedly dissolute ways of White people in general. The more I read your comment I feel that's not what you meant. If that's so I am sorry.

"The problem is though, when one has high expectations, or too many expectations, dating on one's own or meeting "suitable boys and girls" through family connections becomes a ferris wheel. You just keep going round and round and round hoping you will meet the perfect one until one day you realize you are old(er) and lonely and should have just "settled" for one of them."

The more prevalent problem is, when one has too low expectations, or forgoes (or is barred from) determining what their expectataions are, and are forced into marrying someone, it becomes more like a tilt-a-whirl, without a seatbelt. Now the tilt-a-whirl might be more fun in the short term, but if I absolutely had to choose between one or another, I'd go with the ferris wheel.

As for why the bride wasn’t smiling: uncomfortable outfit? Awkward hair? Cultural expectation?

To quote the videographer in a certain Gurinder Chadha film: "Eyes down, eyes down! You'll spoil the bloody video."

:-)

It is not uncommon to find women in India who feel that to even initiate sexual contact with their husbands first is taboo. Again this ties into "lajja bhushana stri".

The youth in India can reclaim India's true heritage by arousing a nationwide sexual awakening. Until then India won't really be free.

As for why the bride wasn’t smiling: uncomfortable outfit? Awkward hair? Cultural expectation?

Gas?

HMF - I see what you're getting at. You might've seen what could be described as "passionless" marriages among Indian couples. Some of my Indian friends complain that this is the kind of marraiges they grew up witnesses between their parents. No holding hands or showing affection in front of the kids, etc. More or less a duty, yada, yada, yada...

This takes place worldwide. I guess there would be no way to gauge if arranged marriages have more of a chance of turning out like that as opposed to non-arranged.

Many people prefer to opt for arranged marriages, even after being through the dating scene and having the oppurtunity to choose for oneself.

Example; I have a very attractive and financially successfuly Indian male friend who had no problem attracting women. Yet, he really had no time to invest in dating and going from woman to woman to try to find someone suitable. So finally he just told his mom to go ahead and find some women and he would be willing to meet them. After meeting several and "not feelin it", he finally was introduced to someone he "liked". They dated a few times and communicated via phone, internet, etc, and finally married. That "like" grew into love after some time.

Funny, he still says he wish he would have married a non-Indian because he was looking forward to the excitement of a "cross-cultural" relationship. But he just did not have the time to invest in all that pre-marriage relationship building and possible heart-break. At his age and position he wanted to go for a sure thing.

Is his marriage "passionless"? I don't know.

I think passion is a spontaneous thing in the beginning but something that may have to be worked on to keep burning years down the line. That's what all these relationship books are about we see so much of these days.

Personally I think relationship courses should be given to kids in high schools everywhere as part of the carriculum.

Gas?

"HMF - I see what you're getting at. You might've seen what could be described as "passionless" marriages among Indian couples. Some of my Indian friends complain that this is the kind of marraiges they grew up witnesses between their parents. No holding hands or showing affection in front of the kids, etc. More or less a duty, yada, yada, yada..."

It's not about passion, it doesn't bother me that my parents or their generation don't go around calling each other honey and babes every 2 seconds, and hold hands in public or any of that nonsense

"Yet, he really had no time to invest in dating and going from woman to woman to try to find someone suitable. So finally he just told his mom to go ahead and find some women and he would be willing to meet them. "

This is a little different, he actually made the choice to turn back to the system, on his own timing. I would contend that if he were forced to use the system like many, he wouldn't speak so highly of it. When I lambast the arranged marriage system, it's the guilt, fear, and constant haranguing to do it by a certain time, that I abhor.

HMF - I hear ya!

I'm not even an Indian and I get that all the time in India. At first I took major offense at it (mostly for religious reasons), but now that I'm more chilled with time and age, I just joke around about it. But yeah, if it's annoying to me and I'm not even a "spoke in the wheel", so to speak, then I can imagine how fed up you and others would be with constant harangueing.

"It's not about passion, it doesn't bother me that my parents or their generation don't go around calling each other honey and babes every 2 seconds, and hold hands in public or any of that nonsense"

LOL! That is sooo funny, baby, honey, cupcake! ;-)

Isn't it common to give pet-names or nick-names to loved ones? I don't see what's so funny about it. Unless you call them "Rinku" or something like that.

In some parts of India the husband gives an entirely new first name to the wife. From Shruti to Omkaraa, or Lalita to Arpita.

In the area of India where I reside, women generally do not call their husbands by their first names, there are folkloric reasons for that and it is tied in to "respect". When they want to get their attention they say, "soon"... listen. Not "Suno Vikram", or "Sweetheart suno", but simply, "soon".

"Baby" on the other hand is a common nickname for sisters. I had one Indian male friend who was like a brother to me and he was always calling me "baby". I thought he was calling me "baby" the way my fiance does and I wrote him an email saying, "don't call me baby". He was like, "that's an affectionate name for my younger sister, what's the big deal".

And then I noticed that amongst several Indian families in my area, there is always a "baby" in the family.

I don't see what's so funny or non-sensical about giving pet-names to people.

Sorry, dude/dudette. I may have inhaled some laughing gas, because when I read this:

"I don't see what's so funny about it.Unless you call them "Rinku" or something like that."

I almost PEED my pants! "Rinku" - LOL! Keep it up - you're cracking me up!

Rinku. Dinku. Chintu and Munnu. Yeah, we get a good laugh out of those too. How about "Pinky"?

Regarding Shruti's expectations that every drum circle kid in America bangin on tablas know about the intricacies of Indian mating rituals... why? For what? will it help their drumming?

If I go to an Indian village and guys there wear polyester pants with belts and button down shirts with ties instead of dhoti/kurta, should I expect them to know about any Western mating rituals in detail? How about if they play the trombone or recite Wordsworth (pretty popular in India). ?

I just don't see a connection.

And yes, arranged marriages are a weird concept for people who have not grown up in a culture where they are the norm. Just like having boyfriends/girlfriends is a weird concept for many people who grow up in cultures where there is no dating.

The best thing is to not take offense at innocent comments that arise due to ignorance and lack of exposure to said culture, but rather, take it as an oppurtunity to SHARE in a FRIENDLY way, your own personal experience of arranged marriages, keeping in mind that those would be your own personal experiences and that other forms of arranged marraiges do take place wherein the bride and groom are very very young and there is no choice and hence, the innocent comments made in ignorance by above drummers are not entirely off for a whole lot of people in India. Even if those people are not in your family and social circles.

Something tells me that Beige Sage you have chosen the grimmest nook of India as your home.

Mutineers often take umbrage when Americans are so unfamiliar with our culture that they must resort to stereotype, as if they should be familiar and as if we do not do the same with foreign cultures. Just a quick glimpse of some of the comments made on this site about white southerners should tell us differently.

Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winner!

i pulled the plug after years of serial dating both on and offline -- bars, clubs, craigslist, NETIP, Wendy's, the mall, match dot who? shaadi dot what? -- ultimately getting hitched to a little hellraiser - just kidding honey lovely lady after having only met just once -- over the course of lunch at her (and her parent's) home in Punjab.

for someone who used to live in manhattan and fork over $100 to the gayest man alive aka my "stylist", so they could groom my coiffure of three dangling whiskers that mercifully grace my scalp into an arrangement i was convinced would get me laid, i thought it would be a cold day in hell before i march down dowery lane and sign up for an arranged marriage and ultimately get wed in 3000 BC earth Rajasthan (and Punjab).

sure, there was tremendous pressure embellished with off-the-shelf dramas, like ...

mother: arre beta, main budi hogi. maybe once i rest in GRAVE, God will answer prayer and then maybe you will get the married *sniff sniff*
me: God is a satanic bisexual who eats beef. didn't you hear?
father: beta, main tumko kaisa samjao? DAHRR-LEENG, please talk to your son.
me: you people are all crazy. this is an aslyum, not a home.
mother: tameez se baat kar!
...
but push came to shove and what i once thought was an insatiable appetite for dating women who list Kiehl's Lip Balm as one of the five things they can't live without, had finally weakened into semi-disinterested afterthoughts. oh...and i eventually BRAINWASHED myself into believing that things like love and falling in and out of it, as well as relationships and dating and the sparks that fly when you're having a "bonding" moment with that cute brunette discussing thread counts and who you just mentally undressed, and, interestingly, looks GREAT even though you can't really tell because she just buried your face in her tits and now you've got a silly shit-eating grin on your face and people can't figure out what the hell is wrong with you, is all just CIRCUMSTANTIAL.

it took one part balls, two parts idiocy and a dash of faith to look at my, who was, at that time, soon-to-be wife, and tell myself, confounded with the mangled hindsight that i was about to

resign all notions of "dating" and "just do it" (minus the fun and coolness and catchiness of the Nike brand), that she is now and will forever be "the one".

and besides, i will NOT repeat another million-mile long barat that started just outside of Udaipur, finally commencing in Chandigarh. it wasn't exactly the Ritz-Carlton and i didn't QUITE get propped up onto a white stallion (it was more of the mule-ish/donkey variety that, i was told, was FIT FOR A KING, LIKE ME) but everyone had way too much fun and that's all that (ever) matters.

Photo: Totolal, we're no longer in Kansas.

and although hurtful things are sometimes said ...

her: I WAS SOLD A BAD BILL OF GOODS. you never told me you blah blah and blah!
me: THEN RETURN ME
her: i SHOULD!
me: you are a GREENCARD HO. you won't do shit!
her: don't threaten me! i'll pick up this phone right NOW and tell my mother that i'm through with you!
me: your DEAR MOTHER is at the temple right now praying that my man-seed yield her three grandsons. she has no time for your bakwaas.
her: i'm so stupid. i can't believe i got married to you!
me: i know. arranged marriages SUCK. they're horrid! if it wasn't for that sumptuous bum you rock, you would be more or less useless to me.

[[[filthy arranged marriage sex ensues]]]

the kicker is that we get along fabulously and laugh hysterically and makes knocks about how moronic arranged marriages are indeed and how we swear we'll never allow our children into one while throwing back bujia over hot cups of chai and getting crazy with mom. seriously, being pussy-whipped never felt so good. (you can go throw up now) but part of me chides myself for being foolish enough to take as big a risk as i did, but then again, i have a horrible gambling itch.

and my parents? lord, you'd think they were medicated or doping behind my back. they also have a NASTY case of the "I told you so's".

father: ha! ha! oh, beta. i'm so glad you came for dinner!
me: I LIVE HERE
father: ha ha! oh yes yes! how was work?
me: o.k. I had to g...
father: SEE? I TOLD YOU SO. WAS I NOT TELLING YOU SUCH? BUT NO! TU BADA NATAK WATAK KAR DIYA! HO HO! HA HO!
me: that only adjusts your status from completely INSANE to tolerably NUTS. OK?
father: HA HA! oh beta! ha ha!

of course NOW their new complaint revolves around when we plan on having kids. *sigh*

ITS MADNESS, I TELL YA

Insert obligatory Apu & Manjula reference here.
[__________________________________________]

hilarious post, AC.
I don't think its anyone's claim here (if it is, speak now, or forever keep your peace ;) ) that love marriages are better than arranged marriages...but, simply that (as many people have pointed out), one should be allowed to have a choice...

as an aside, the love marriage trend seems to be growing in india...i don't have a single friend back in desh who got hooked through an arranged marriage...

If I go to an Indian village and guys there wear polyester pants with belts and button down shirts with ties instead of dhoti/kurta, should I expect them to know about any Western mating rituals in detail? How about if they play the trombone or recite Wordsworth (pretty popular in India). ?

I just don't see a connection

Beige Sage, your new name aint doing ya any favours. The difference - or the connection - is the resources that people in western countries have to find out about other cultures and the presence of immigrants from these cultures in their own countries in ever-growing numbers.

Joining a group where you play the tablas shows in interest in Indian culture that's not mainstream - western clothing is mainstream in India, but tablas and traditional instruments aren't known to many other Beige Sages. No it's not fair to expect people to know everything about every other culture, but I think the whole arranged marriage thing is a sore point because people have been through convos like the overheard one so many times.

listen!! if you have nothing positive to say about indic folk, keep your jalebihole SHUT and help me procreate.

Great line, hairy_d :)

AC that was a hilarious and thought provoking post. The mentions of Kiehl, Rajasthan and Manhattan resonated loudly.

Regarding Shruti's expectations that every drum circle kid in America bangin on tablas know about the intricacies of Indian mating rituals... why? For what? will it help their drumming?

If I go to an Indian village and guys there wear polyester pants with belts and button down shirts with ties instead of dhoti/kurta, should I expect them to know about any Western mating rituals in detail? How about if they play the trombone or recite Wordsworth (pretty popular in India). ?

I just don't see a connection.

Fair enough, Beige Sage, I am guilty as charged. I shouldn't have made the connection, just because I hate both drum circles and people who make asinine assumptions about my culture. I'm not compelled by the excuses you made in either's favor, but in the scenarios you presented, I admit that they are not clearly connected.

And on this particular point:

Regarding Shruti's expectations that every drum circle kid in America bangin on tablas know about the intricacies of Indian mating rituals

I have no such expectations. Especially not from Americans. I merely wish they would give some thought and some respect to the culture from where their tabla came. Is that really unreasonable?

I like what HMF and Beige Sage have been saying. And I agree that "relationshipping" (a verb that a friend of mine uses constantly) is definitely a learned skill that gets better with practice and time. I did and said crap to boys when I was younger that I wouldn't do now. But I am grateful that I've had the boyfriends I've had, I'm still friends with most of them and they helped me be who I am today. I love all of them for what they were to me at a particular point in time, at a particular point in my development. I thought my college boyfriend was my "soulmate" but looking back, we've both changed and taken different life paths and couldn't be together now. Point being, I also don't like the idea of marriage/not getting divorced as some sort of proven marker of relationship success. I consider most of my relationships to have been successful for what they were, you know?

Secondly, I've been told by a few Brit Asians that it was well-known (at least 10-15 yrs ago, I dunno about now) that the whole "assisted introduction" thing in the late teens and early 20s was a way to get a quick, strings-free shag. Kids would agree to it, go take a walk together while the parents were talking and get it on in a car or something, and then come back and say "No, I don't think it'll work out. Who else do you have for me?" So I suppose that's an interesting combination of Western dating and Eastern tradition. ;)

"lajja bhushana stri" indeed!
Maybe someone needs to go to the malls of South Bombay next time they're in the old country.

Secondly, I've been told by a few Brit Asians that it was well-known (at least 10-15 yrs ago, I dunno about now) that the whole "assisted introduction" thing in the late teens and early 20s was a way to get a quick, strings-free shag.

You know what? My friend recently joined a famous intenational website devoted to matchmaking amongst desis. I'm sure you all know the name of it. He is approaching 30 and getting the usual hassle to try and find a nice girl by his family, get married, settle down.

Anyway, in the last 6 months or so he has hooked up with five or six girls across the country. It's a freakin' meat market. Boys and girls are hooking up and getting laid all on the understanding of their families that they are seriously complying with the gentle pressure to find a mate, then meeting similarly inclined people, half wanting to meet someone for marriage, half horny as hell and wanting to just have fun before the noose of marriage and the thirties come along. I chatted to someone else and he says it's the same, what a way to meet girls/boys for no strings attached fun. All undercover of course. And all those aunties and uncles thinking you are such good and nice boys and girls for doing as they say hahaha. My friend is oversexed now. Total shagfest.

Sometimes it sucks to be in a relationship.

How about this FOB ad ;-)
Tamil Iyengar boy,177/65/US$95K. Btech IIT Madras/MSCS UT Austin. Working as a software engineer in Redwood shores looking for a suitable match. Girl must be fair/tall/must play veena/know Bharat Natyam/cook rasam and be obedient. Software engineer with H1B under processing preferred. Send horoscopam and details to...

HMF, I think you're not responding to the simple question I posed. I'll rephrase it here. I don't have anything more to add.

Why do you think arranged marriages are simply an inferior way of getting married, in comparison to self-arranged ones?

Because your question fails to take into account the Indian historical, philosophical, and religous context of the place marriage has in human existence. I've explained in this thread and many others, the arranged marriage system as it's coupled with the belief that marriage exists to support the underlying societal structure, rather than support the individuals at hand, in my view, is quite inferior.

I've already expounded on how guilt, fear, asking questions like "you're 30 and not married, what will the neighbors think?" etc.. do nothing but subvert the society it intends to serve.

Another poster gave an example where the individual voluntary requested the parents to help out - and in that sense, the parents become just another feeder source. But when parents impose their own timetable, based on knee-jerk social conditioning, I believe it does more harm than good.

Let me simplify, and repeat: There is no evidence that free-will marriages as seen in the usa (or anywhere else) for example, have a higher success rate than arranged marriages as seen in india (or anywhere else) for example.

There you go again. Using your limited definition of "not getting divorced = success". It's an uncritical and imcomplete analysis.

In addition, since free-will has a 50% chance of succeeding, it appears to me that its no better than flip of a coin, hence, it makes sense that other methods be in action, in effort to produce a better result. This is why I believe your viewpoint in dissing the arranged marriage concept is wrong.

I've already addressed your erroneous usage of the 50% statistic in the context of desi's born and growing up in the United States, and your simplistic view that "well if two people can only get it 50% right, 10 people should be able to raise it to 70%, right?" reduces the problem to a linear, rational process. If anyone tells you marriage is a logical, rational, well-thought out process, I'd request him to share some of the crack he's smoking.

Often with a complex emotional issue, more people might actually hamper the situation, this isn't like trying to build a car.

Nowhere in this or elsewhere have I claimed to hold arranged marriages superior to other paths to marriage. But I do believe its not inferior to other ways of getting hitched.

True you haven't, but many that tout the 50% statistic over and over again usually do hold arranged marriage as superior.

Anyway, in the last 6 months or so he has hooked up with five or six girls across the country. It's a freakin' meat market. Boys and girls are hooking up and getting laid all on the understanding of their families that they are seriously complying with the gentle pressure to find a mate, then meeting similarly inclined people, half wanting to meet someone for marriage, half horny as hell and wanting to just have fun before the noose of marriage and the thirties come along. I chatted to someone else and he says it's the same, what a way to meet girls/boys for no strings attached fun. All undercover of course. And all those aunties and uncles thinking you are such good and nice boys and girls for doing as they say hahaha. My friend is oversexed now. Total shagfest.

To get minorily sociological about it, from what little I know UK culture is very liberal in regards to sex. And so is US culture. Out here, I'd guess if you go out on a date with someone and have any kind of chemistry, the chance of a hook up is good (although I am throw-back sidaa sadaa)....so these people are just doing what is done in our society, albeit with a hue of sepia thrown in. If John and Sally in their late 20's early 30's meet up coming from across the country, hit it off and have some chemistry, you'd make no money in Las Vegas betting against a hook-up and no one would think to say a thing about it being illicit. If Happy and Bubbles (these are real names btw) get it on, they're just being real americans all night (thats billy joel right?)

Sahej

Yeah, but I have a sneaking admiration for Happy and Bubbles driving from London to Manchester to shag each other then saying 'see ya later' all the while their conservative parents think they're being sidaa sadaa and submitting to the whole dot com matchmaking rigmarole. It's all about context, and the hormones raging underneath those happy-smiley-respectable profiles and photographs. Nothing wrong with a bit of sexual mutineering amidst the bullshit and hypocrisy of the desi marriage industry.

Amardeep, thanks for drawing attention to my little experience. And thanks for the comments, all.

Earlier, I would have protested and tried to convince/explain to people why their ideas are wrong, but I began to realize that these assumptions are SO deep-rooted that they are extremely difficult to erase. I also receive periodic reminders of how almost everything in an Indian wedding can be SO alien to Americans.

Most American friends of mine who attend a traditional Indian wedding for the first time find it a shocking experience. One of my colleagues came up to me one day and described an Indian friend's wedding she'd just been to. She was most shocked by the fact that 'The guests did not even bother to pay attention when the actual ceremony happened (the saat-pheras etc), but just continued talking and eating and stuff'.

Besides the amusing assumption that an Indian wedding with 400-500 people is HUGE, the conflation of 'arranged marriage', 'forced marriage' and 'child marriage' was really quite cringe-inducing.

One possible solution, when you guys get married the next time, do it in a somewhat traditional Indian way and invite as many Americans as you can!

'The guests did not even bother to pay attention when the actual ceremony happened (the saat-pheras etc), but just continued talking and eating and stuff'.

Because subconsciously, no one gives two shits about the two people getting married, it's about fulfilling a "debt to society"

HMF @ 50: "I think kindness, empathy, are natural qualities, no one is born an adulterer or mass murderer or anything else for that matter. It's a matter of uncovering them. Romance skills (actually I don't like that term, I prefer social dynamics) can only be acquired from test drives."

Isn't "uncovering" the EQ type skills/ qualities (such as kindness, empathy, emotional resilience etc, which you say are innate human qualities - and to which I agree with reservations) a matter of learning through the more complete web of human relationships than just romance/ dating/ "test drives"? One can be an effective/ charming "dater", and never be any further in uncovering/learning these skills, mainly because they are usually learned (and come into play) in the long run. And all this reminds me of a story of Buddha.

That said, your ciritique (@ 86) on how the "arranged marriage" system can be a deadline-based, guilt-tripping, societal pressure cooker is quite on the money .

Insted of getting frustated, one should try to "educate" others about their culture and traditions

if people were genuinely intersted in another person's culture, they would take the time to learn it themselves...

just look at how many fob's come and settle in US - it's not like they go asking ghoras directly about their religion or culture - you just learn things as you go on .. and if its something you don't understand and it doesnt really matter - well then you keep your mouth shut...

if some ghora asks you about arranged marriage, there is some sarcasm involved in the question - it's really stupid and pretentious of a ghora to ask someone if their parents will arrange their marriage for them when the desi is there with his/her girlfriend/boyfriend...

and btw, its not just in india arranged marriages are poplular.. its common in asian culture in general...

And who invented this love-marriage term anyway? Does anyone know anything about its origins, usage, etc? Is it restricted only to the desi community? I never heard an American describe their marriage as a love marriage.

And it does not seem to describe all Western marriages very well. For example, would the marriage of Anna Nicole Smith to Howard Marshall qualify as a love-marriage? Maybe love-marriages should be called self-arranged marriages, just to make it clear that the people getting married decided on their own accord. The term love-marriage imputes them a motive they may or may not have.

its David Bowie, and its Young American in the song lyric. song.

Spose I agree with you Red Snapper. Although....why not kick it all away and tell the community to go stuff it? But anyway, lets leave Happy and Bubbles to their deed!

Because subconsciously, no one gives two shits about the two people getting married, it's about fulfilling a "debt to society"

The peope attending the wedding? Not really. It's about food and aunties on the prowl.

Spose I agree with you Red Snapper. Although....why not kick it all away and tell the community to go stuff it?

Yeah, I think most people just think, screw it, save the heroics for later when you bring home a Muslim/Hindu/Sikh/Black/White boy or girl whom you want to marry. In the meantime, just do what you always do, sneak behind their back and have fun doing what men and women do, just the same way you always have done with backwards Indian parents! When you reach a certain age you realise some things arent worth the hassle and you choose your battles. Everyone does undercover things these days.