September 14, 2006
Montreal slaughter nutcase was desiNews
The individual pictured here is Kimveer Gill, who walked into Dawson College in Montreal yesterday, dressed in black from head to toe and carrying what witnesses described as a “huge machine gun,” and opened fire, killing an 18-year-old woman and critically injuring at least five other people. Gill died in the incident, shot either by police or by himself. Gill, who left a wealth of information about himself at his page on vampirefreaks.com (username: fatality666) was 25 and desi:
Gill, who is known to other users on the website as Fatality666, describes himself as Indian, 6-foot-one, who was born in Montreal on July 9, 1981.
Gill wasn’t just your typical deranged guy with violent fantasies. He was obsessed with guns and knives and posted numerous photos of himself armed online. He enjoyed a videogame based on the Columbine massacre. His “personality quiz” on the site matched him with Adolf Hitler, Satanism, the Angel of Death, werewolves, and other morbid connections. He boasted of his whisky drinking. And so on:
“I think I have an obbsetion (sic) with guns … muahahaha,” is the inscription below another picture of Gill aiming the barrel of the gun at the camera.
“Anger and hatred simmers within me,” said another caption below a head shot of Gill grimacing.
The site also has lengthly lists of likes and dislikes. On the “likes” list are: first-person-shooter video games, “Super Psycho Maniacs roaming the streets freely,” massacres, trenchcoats, destruction and “crushing my enemies skulls.”
He also shows a penchant for semi-automatic handguns, combat shotguns, sawed-off shotguns, assault rifles and myriad other weapons.
He dislikes: “The world and everything in it.”
“But to be more specific,” he continues, he hates jocks, preps, country music, Hip Hop, “all those who oppose my rule.”
Gill seems to harbour particular disdain for authority, including police, “all the government on Earth,” “bible-thumping know-it-alls” and God.
The desi angle in this story is, as they say, developing: We know nothing about Gill’s life story yet. But he was desi, and we report the good and the bad here. We’ve also talked about desi goths, though this guy was clearly mentally ill, not a “normal” goth. This story also reminds us of how much evidence of psychopathic or violent intentions resides in plain sight on the Internet. You could look at this guy’s web postings as cries of pain that weren’t heard by anyone other than a small echo chamber of people with similar inclinations. Lots of trees fall in this forest every day; few are heard.
Kimveer Gill put up an image of a tombstone and epitaph on his web page: “Lived fast died young. Left a mangled corpse.” Well, he left two — his own and that of an innocent young woman, with five more struggling to survive.
siddhartha on September 14, 2006 11:27 AM in News · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Siddhartha - I'm not so sure his words are so unusual. There's a certain subculture of goths/metalheads who talk like that. I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't tell his profile from tons of others on the same site. I'm not saying that all goths / metalheads are mass murderers / terrorists. I just don't think that his blog ravings are all that rare.
I think I speek for everyone here when I say MOTHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU###################@@@@@@@@@@@@@ER!!!!
Am ignorant about this...What is a normal goth?
I am surprised because when I was watching the news people were describing the gunner as a white guy.
So far the Canadian police (as usual) have been sketchy on the details. They have not yet formally identified him, nor indicated exactly how he was killed.
An excerpt from the Toronto Sun article gives some indication of his state of mind before the killings.
On Tuesday, a day before the shootings, at 5am Gill is reported to have launched a tirade against authority figures.
"It's not only the bullies' fault, but the principal's fault for turning a blind eye ... it's the police's fault for not doing anything when people complain (ooooops) my mistake, the cops are corrupt sons of whores, so it's not like they can do anything about it. F--- the police."
Gill then allegedly added that he was disgusted at society, which allowed people to behave like "assholes" to each other. "Society disgusts me," he wrote.
Four hours earlier at 12.56 a.m., he is said to have posted the stark message: "F- people, F- Life."
And therein lies the inherent problem with racial profiling. Most people would not bat an eyelid while creating a profile to fit this sort of annihilistic behavior, usually white, suburban, teenager with a penchant for violent video games.
Depends on the context... I don't think the police would be looking for a Black person if they are looking for an Aryan Nation member.
shades of dave chapelle
This is scary. Reminds me of the Gus Van Sant movie about the school massacre in America.
Siddartha - "You could look at this guys web postings as cries of pain that werent heard by anyone....."
please spare us - the world doesn't understand me...so i will go on a blood thirsty rampage, excuse.
he was a cowardly punk and nothing more.
Disgrace to the race.
Good thing he shot himself.. this wouldn't have looked very good on his biodata.
Vikram,
Apparently you've never heard of Clayton Bixby.
But jokes aside, I agree that context definitely applies to the situation, but usually there'll be a signature to a particular crime. No one's obviously going to be looking for a brother when someone finds a burning cross, and in much the same way, when we see Columbine style shootings, that in itself serves as a signature crime, which has been thus far associated with angstridden white teenagers. That's the profiling that I was referring to, the kneejerk reaction to think that it must've been a bunch of white boys who must've done this.
Couldn't agree more. The student who was killed is possibly Desi too: Anastasia De Souza
but hes fair skinned, so all would be forgiven...
I lived in Colorado at the time of the Columbine shootings. A year later I put on my camos and went paintballing in Littleton. Half way through the day they told us that the two killers would practice on that very field. Chills. I love paintball though.
he leaves behind a mother. any thoughts to spare?
his blog is crazy! holy crap!
sure - let's take over lisbon as well while kicking at the cadaver.
shit doesnt fly in a vacuum - it's an alimentary thing.
Cauvery:
Yes, I have, and I have also heard of Robert Sterling Wilson. As with any statistical pattern, there are always outlier points. But I wouldn't throw out all historical information based on a few anomalies. Most crimes are in fact solved by careful correlation with past patterns and information.
Yeah I just looked at his blog and got scared. I'm never making fun of goths again.
Says here that Montreal has suffered two similar psycho shooting sprees on it's university campuses in recent years, including one where a professor shot four of his colleagues.
"I am surprised because when I was watching the news people were describing the gunner as a white guy."
Well, he's got light skin - so when someone is running through a crowd shooting people up - it's easy to see how he would be mistaken as such. Not to mention that it may have been "expected." Some of the french messages say he has a strange first name - indicate that they don't expect him to be anything other than white - or that this is a strange first name for a white person.
Most news stories on the subject do bring up his "Indian ancestry" - I wonder why? I'm not being conspiracy-theorist, but it is strange, no? That that would be an impulse at all?
However, his goth and trench-coat status, do take precedent - which is also pretty dumb. I'm no goth, but it's pretty telling that we always want to paint people who do crazy shit like this as "the other" I have to agree with the sentiment that his page doesn't stick out that much - except for the pictures of him posing with guns.
>he leaves behind a mother. any thoughts to spare?
"Good wombs bear bad sons" - Shakespeare's "The Tempest"...I think
It is tragic for his family, no one brings new life into the world envisioning this as a scenario. I hope his parents weren't indulging his gun fetish. Isn't difficult to get assault weapons in Canada ?
Here is another little tid-bit: The main/lead quote on his blog is from the movie The Crow (probably one of my top three favorite movies ever)
It could be argued that he thought he would be resurrected like the character of Brandon Lee in order to become an invincible killer of killers.
i'm glad american brownz aren't "bady boyz." less p**sy but at least these outlier m**herf**kers don't pop up that often (excepting random muslims who decide to go on anti-jewish rampages in seattle).
Um... don't know what your malfunction is... I had a Goan friend by that name so as I said it is a possibility. I don't say for sure she was Desi.
Um... don't know what your malfunction is... I had a Goan friend by that name so as I said it is a possibility. I don't say for sure she was Desi.
ps. I hate that this murderer loved "the Daily Show"!!
To be honest, I thought the US would produce the first Indian origin wacko.
Tragic. Horrible. But I have a question for you non-psychopathic desi dudes out there. Apart from Kimveer's first name and the one place where he listed his heritage as "Indian," he chose to affiliate himself almost completely with angry white Goth-ness. So -- if you're a desi guy growing up in the burbs, and you can't or don't want to wear a model-minority-math-nerd-spelling-bee-winning label, how DO you define yourself culturally? Do a lot of young desi guys tend to sway white/Goth rather than white/skater-cum-surfer-dude or ghetto/hip-hop? What else is there for teen guys? Either way, do you end up feeling like a poser or wannabe?
"To be honest, I thought the US would produce the first Indian origin wacko."
Another sad story:
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001783.html
We did: Biswanath Halder (although he was an FOB). See previous posts: 1, 2.
Biswanath Halder
Cowardly or not, if he was genuinely mentally ill rather than just being a malicious jerk, I think it would be worthwhile for people to refrain from some of the more callous comments that have been posted on this thread. Not that this would be of any comfort to the victims, of course, who deserve our sincere sympathy first and foremost.
Tragic that someone like this managed to slip through the net.
Goans more likely to use the "z" in Desouza than others.
If he used the CX4 Storm shown in the pictures, that is not classified as an assault weapon.
i remember being a little incredulous when the parents of the Columbine massacre perpetrators said they had no clue or hint that their sons were capable of such a thing, despite their rooms being a shrine to dysfunction and violence. i wonder if this young man managed to hide his nihilistic feelings and unhealthy obsession with violence and guns from his parents and friends and teachers at school (when he was there) or if they just didn't think it would ever come to this and was a passing phase? especially after Columbine, these similar signs and symptoms should ring warning bells in the people closest to them. sounds like he was bullied as well.
it is.
although as a random nugget - toronto's gun club has its firing range on the top floor of union station in the downtown core, plumb next to the financial district. and its co-president is a desi dude.
i am mulling the ramifications for the ruling conservative party. Part of their platform was a disbanding the gun registry - intended to be wildly popular among the 'rod and rifle' type, and equally wildly unpopular among the 'hemp and henna' type.
this incident will grow into something big - can bring down the conservative government. there are a couple of other political footballs here - arms for border agents, gun running laws (across the border) etc. let's see how this grows.
I don't think race has anything to do with this. Rather, it's just another example of disaffected and angry suburban males acting out. I have no idea what causes this type of behavior, but something has to be done. I was especially surprised that this took place in Canada. Unfortunately, school shootings in the States are no longer as shocking as they should be. I didn't realize that the problem spread to Canadian youth as well.
A 25 year old man hating on school, jocks and other assorted stereotypes from a bad teen flicks.
Now there's a clue to the mystery.
yeah, its not like hes still in school getting bullied or something. that IS wierd.
this mad man had THREE guns???
he was readying for war
hairy_d:
His parents probably deserve some of the blame. I know kids aren't robots programmed by their parents. But if I'd had gone so far off the rails as this SOB, the least my parents would have done is to prevent me from hurting others. My dad literally would have tied me up and sat on me so that I wouldn't bring this kind of misery to the world.
hairy_d:
Turning it to politics... any thoughts to spare on these "political footballs"?
List of things Kimveer hates from his blog:
-American Government
-Anyone Who Supports The American Government
-Capatalists(sic)
-Bible Thumpping Know-It-Alls
-Church Going Assholes
-Catholics
-Republicans
-All Priests
But he's a big fan of the Daily Show..
Subtract the Vampire/Goth stuff and you have the nice beginnings of a lefty blog! I'm sure we're going to see as much condemnation of leftwing hate as we would have of rightwing hate.
Couldn't resist that jab, but obviously the guy's got more problems than being a leftist. He hates basically everyone and everything that wasn't him.
Bowling for Columbine has been undermined. Canada was such a good foil vis a vis the USA regarding guns. Now Canada has lost a little of that. Pity.
His list of "hates" seems very simplistic and not well thought out for a 25 year old - even if he does watch the Daily Show.
And, c'mon, for those who say the parents have some responsibility - HE'S 25!!! At some point you have to take responsibility for your own life. I'm not saying that they didn't mess him up somewhere along the way, but he's 25!!!!
43. Irene:
The so called lefty jab is is way off. The nut jobs behind Oklahoma had similar pet peeves.
metric:
??? Where have you been? Dayzee parents R 4 LIFE! They ROCK!
Maybe Kimveer's an orphan? Could explain some things.
And I heard and hear a thousand and one leftists bring that up as an example of right-wing, white, Christian hate. And that let to massive condemnation and examination of right-wing talk radio, militia groups, etc by people at that time. Some of that condemntation was legit, and I would hope that people would find the time to do so again. Like starting with that film glorifying the assasination of Bush that premiered a bit down the road from Dawson college a few days ago.
A group of people coming together, following certain philosophy and converting it to a plan of action.
Vs.
Some punk w/ too many guns, randomly spewing hate.
Theres a difference, dont you think?
If youre thinking of a lefty gone mad, Unabombers your man.
Not Kimveer Gill.
Huh? Many on the right said that they sympathized with his goals but that he went too far. Gore Vidal, a prominent right wing figure, lionized him. I never heard right wing figures denounce McVeigh's goals in the same way that they demand that Muslims denounce the Islamicists. As I recall, some congressmen even had some non-negative things to say about him, but I don't remember who.
The Canadian gun registry has been described a total disaster, costing the taxpayer $ 2 billion:
Gore Vidal, a prominent right wing figure? My friend, you need to think about that, you couldnt be more wrong.
Contra-fing # 50- "Huh? Many on the right said that they sympathized with his goals but that he went too far. Gore Vidal, a prominent right wing figure, lionized him."
If Gore Vidal is a "prominent right winger", then I am Prophet Muhammad.
Mitali (#30): Kimveer's last name is Indian too. And please don't suggest that what this utterly evil man decided to do or the identity he embraced is an alternative to the "model-minority-math-nerd-spelling-bee-winning label". The man had a rich historical, cultural, religious, and linguistic heritage, had he chosen to embrace it.
Contra-fing
Gore Vidal is a not a right-wing figure. He's run as a Democratic Party candidate at least twice, called William F. Buckley a "crypto N@zi", and is very harsh on Bush, Cheney, Reagan, Rumsfeld.
Vidal lionized McVeigh because's Vidal's mentally ill or r*tarded. Take your pick. He thought McVeigh was framed. Vidal also expressed the same mentally ill or r*tarded opinions about conspiracies around 9/11.
The rest of your post is as fact-based as is your comment about Vidal. There was massive condemnation of McVeigh. I'm not going to google all the quotes for you, He was also put to death which is as severe condemnation as you are going to get. If some idiot Congressman was less than unequivocal, then s*r*w him, but you're talking a minority there.
**This filter is harsh.
i'd say you're very lucky if you do not have anyone within your immediate or extended family with psychological disorders or behavioral issues.
in any case i'd recommend folks step back and let this play out in the media.
this can not have been an isolated issues but some questions need to be explored. why am i pointing it out? because good or bad, he was part of the society we live in and we are all connected in some way or the other.
1. was this person deranged ? was he was on drugs?
2. who is the weapon registered to? where did it come from? what was its path into canada?
3. where did this jobless person get the money to buy the weapons? on the dole? theft? drugs?
4. his mother has been referenced in this ? but not the father? where is the father? what is the history to this man?
5. what is the societal fabric for this man's family? he is a loner? what about his family?
well put, hairy d. debating whether this guy -- or the columbine kids, or whomever -- was "right" or "left" really misses the point. this is a human tragedy and perhaps the media sleuthing and more information about how gill got to the point he did, with the weapons to act on it, will help us learn something from it.
Is Anne Coulter a prominent conservative? She said:
"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building."
Does that sound like denunciation to you?
Roger Ebert's take on something similar in his review of Gus Van Sant's movie Elephant.
Contra-fing:
What? Are you serious?
If you say that your only regret was that Mohammed Atta didn't fly into the Aryan Nation's compound in Idaho, does that mean that you aren't denouncing him? I think by choosing a completely different target you are clearly denouncing his actions.
She's a shock-jock-type columnist. Her statement is contemptible hyperbole, but you are misunderstanding her.
A really interesting book on boys and violence is called Lost Boys by James Garbarino. I had to read in grad school and it lends a lot of perspective on how to prevent horrific cases such as this terrible shooting in Montreal. It's worth the read and is quite well-written-- ironically, the book came out in January 1999-- just a few months before the Columbine incident occurred. I wonder if the shooter had Antisocial Personality Disorder. In any case, I send peace and my thoughts to the family of the victims.
Why do these whacko campus shootings always happen in Montreal ?
15 years ago there was a guy who didn't get into engineering program he wanted supposedly because of affirmative action, so he walked into an engineering lecture at McGill told all the males to stand up and leave and then opened fire on the women, killing 17.
American browns go on shooting sprees when people hack into their websites.
My last words here, since I don't want to trollishly drag this out.
If you say your only regret about somebody's actions is XYZ, then that means that you don't disagree with what they did. Oh yeah, it was great, the only thing that could have made it better would be if they had attacked civilians in the middle of new york city instead.
So not only is she an apologist for terrorism, but she wishes that he had done something which would have killed more people.
Ah yes, she's a "shock jock". So's Farrakhan, but I never heard conservatives give him a pass based on the fact that he's trying to get a reaction. A lot of the islamicists out there are too. Just becuse she's blonde and white, people say "Oh, she couldn't really be evil". Imagine that same statement coming out of the mouth of a bearded imam.
Oh, and I was trying to remember Helen Chenoweth. Popular former congresswoman from Boise, and poster-child for the militias. The democratic incumbent had won his seat by 21%, she beat him the next election by 11%. Not a fringe character, although she was the one of the most conservatives member of congress. I don't recall the quote though, but she's said plenty about how the militias are right, how the US government uses black helicopters, how Milosevic was right, etc. She stepped down only b/c she had promised a voluntary 3-term limit.
Just like Cynthia McKinney, Anne Coulter represents the fringe and doesn't speak for the majority of the conservatives. She is in it for - book sales at any cost.
IreneFingIrene, I would rather slide down a banister of razor blades and land into a vat of salt and vinegar than attempt to defend Ann Coulter's sanity.
After recovering from a 15 minute laughing seizure upon reading this:
Even taking your warped analogy, the differences between the Aryan Nation compound and the WTC I think are a bit larger than the Murrah building and the Times offices. She's a "shock jock" that's not taken seriously by anyone with ears and a fully functioning auditory nerve. When her bullshit book Godless came out, notice no one responded to that claim, because intellectually she's about as deep as a wading pool, but more people just jumped on her "9/11 widows are bitches because they support Kerry" or whatever she said.
HMF - As much as I dislike Anne Coulter, I know, I wouldn't be able to do this.....
"I would rather slide down a banister of razor blades and land into a vat of salt and vinegar than attempt to defend Ann Coulter's sanity."
You are one tough cookie, HMF.
Overheard today in Mtl:
Guy 1: Yeah, he had some weird name.
Guy 2: Was he Arab?
Guy 1: Kimveer or somethin.
Guy 2: Yeah, he was Arab. (In a tone implying all is now resolved).
And I've always considered Canucks to be more nuanced than...other people.
Polytechnique massacre was fourteen years ago. This city is in complete shock that this could have happened here. Most people in the school couldn't recognize the sound of gunfire - they thought it was a firecracker at first.
I agree with whoever - think it was Hairy D - said some questions should be asked about this guy's history. It is strange that his father is never mentioned. He may have a history of emotional or physical abuse.
Seems like everyone's spending a great deal of time dissecting the intricacies of this nutbag's political leanings (political leanings! As if someone like this was alive long enough to understand politics at any real level!).
Again, the why of it all is very simple. It is not the mysterious thing so many people seem to think. I'm not making excuses or trying to rationalize anything. But people seem to want to understand his behavior, because to a relatively well-adjusted adult, this seems so alien and frightening that the mind tries not to understand it.
First, this guy seems very young (yes, I know he's 25). His writings in his blog all indicate a near universal form of rejection. A person doesn't get to this level of emotional fervor without some fairly serious trauma (and I don't mean being hit or someone sexually molesting him...trauma can just as easily be having difficulty fitting in with his peer group, or undergoing a humiliating experience, for instance). The result is a buildup of rage, coupled with a lack of understanding of the consequences of this kind of action.
I think that the kid had a major alpha-male complex. That is, he was forcibly relegated to something near the bottom of his social totem pole, and was compelled (that's not a strong enough word, really) to react against it. If you do not agree with seeing yourself as a victim, and yet feel victimized by some sort of social system (a group of people, the police, your family, etc), then the only alternative is to take action. You're squeezed by your own image of yourself as strong, worthwhile, etc.
Since he had a somewhat-limited imagination, the action he picked, fantasized about, and finally acted on, was direct and brutally violent. It has shades of the kind of "if I do this, people will be sorry" thinking that characterizes younger suicides. It was a simple, direct statement, but also a balancing of his emotional books.
It can be tough to spot kids like this, because they may indulge in some weird stuff without ever once showing signs of violence. And one of the things that people never seem to notice is the role his peers probably played in all this. Blame the parents all you like, but kids are often just as influenced by their friends (and sometimes by their enemies) as by their parents.
And right now, I bet his parents are beyond anguish. Can you imagine raising a child, only to have it come to this? He shoots and kills people on a college campus in a Columbine-style rampage? Even if they neglected him horribly, this is still rough.
because intellectually she's about as deep as a wading pool,
If that simile is original ( I am sure it is ), I am wowed. Good job.
They interviewed some of his high school classmates. He has twin younger brothers and one girl said that the three of them were 'loners' with 'side-parts' and 'collar shirts'. I guess the goth thing came a bit later.
Also, I haven't been glued to the coverage by any means but I haven't heard anyone in the media mention his ethnicity yet, much less bring it into the analysis.
Personally, I think when it comes to ending a human life, everyone knows the consequences of their actions. In this case, it wasn't accidental in any way. When you load the clip into the gun and pull the trigger, you know damn well the consequences of what you're doing. I come off as pretty pissed myself at the shit that's happened to me, but you don't see me on the 5 oclock news.
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (sp?) - felt ostracized the same way, shot up their school.
Trey Parker, Matt Stone - felt ostracized the same way, created South Park
I'm not sure what you mean by alpha male, but its usually understood in the context of attracting women, and this transposes itself onto the larger, more general "social worth"
Let's take my example, I've been "nice", supplicant, essentially "Beta-male", to women that [NOTE: I DO NOT CONDONE OR SUPPORT OR PRACTICE OR WOULD EVER PERPETRATE SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST ANYONE AT ANY TIME BUT ONLY MAKE THIS STATEMENT FOR PURPOSE OF ARGUMENT, EXAGGERATION, AND HYPERBOLE], I'd probably have to rape one just to come back to normal.
Again. not on the news.
I don't see this at all, in almost all cases, loads of evidence comes out as to how this person said violent things, or exhibited erratic, neurotic behavior. It could be a case of hindsight is 20/20, but in most cases there are enough signs. Maybe it's a case of the Canadians thinking, "those wackos are all in the states, not in our town" But I'll agree that blaming the parents, while might be theoretically correct, isn't practically useful in any way.
truly a tragedy. as for canadians being more nuanced than americans, it is true in certain areas, like vancouver or toronto that have high desi populations. i am not sure about the number of indians in montreal, i do however know there is a significant arab population there because of their language policy as it pertains to immigration(algeria being a former french colony). it's just sad that this young man had to inflict such senseless carnage on innocent students because he felt so ostrasized and angry at the world.
Just like Cynthia McKinney, Anne Coulter represents the fringe and doesn't speak for the majority of the conservatives. She is in it for - book sales at any cost.
Are you serious? Ann Coulter is very mainstream Republican. Do you know how many speaking arrangements she has and goes to for speaking at massive conservative crowds at think tanks, college republican speaking arrangements, best sellers and the rest.
salil maniktahla and mitali perkins are the only two commenters on this thread who make any sense (apologies if i missed any other similarly politically disposed individuals). the rest of you need to get a good look at reality: mental illness actually exists in the diaspora. this kid's behavioral patterns were not reminiscent of those of a healthy and nurtured one...and that "problem" was as much his as it is yours, desi.
...and if it scares the sh*t out of you because you don't want to be labeled as a "crazy brown dude(ette)"--because of all that nice stereotyping that you all whine about being "bad for our community"--then maybe you ought to start recognizing/accepting the existence of mental illness within your community so that it may be identified in young people before they come to such tragic ends. but maybe that is too much to ask since most would instead indulge in a little gossip-fest over why kimveer gill was so messed up in the first place, right?
on another note, i *love* how little these comments have little to do with anything other than talking smack about the dead kid. how morbid. karma's a 'natch, dear friends, please revise your thought processes.
more for your thoughts...
I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that mental illness exists in the desi community. I'm all too aware of it belonging to a S. Indian community that won the Lancet's prize for having the highest documented suicide rate in the world. Not all of us view neuropathology as the sole source of evil in the world, which is why many of us not looking for first causes beyond "Mr. Gill was a bad seed". Furthermore, those of us who grew up desi here in the US/Canada/UK in the 1970/80s dealt with the same exclusion & school yard beatings but would never take it out on innocent people.
Is there any evidence that he was mentally ill other than he killed somebody? The music subculture that glorifies death and killing is large, and includes bands like Zyklon-B (death metal) and the Khmer Rouge (punk). His writings seem quite banal, albeit twisted. Why get all defensive about his presumed mental illness when we have no evidence in favor of it.
The Globe and Mail has mentioned that he was Sikh, but that's about the extent of the racial references. He was much more a violent metal goth than he was brown, if you have to pick just one category to put him in.
Some trivia: All his guns were properly registered. It was a semiautomatic he used, not technically an assault rifle, as fully automatic machine guns are illegal in Canada.
And Metroblog has a picture of Anastasia DeSousa, FYI.
Raincoaster, link please?
It's also not clear in what sense he was a Sikh. From his remarks in his own blog he's either an atheist or a satanist. He makes no reference to self-identifying as a Sikh, although he does self-identify as a desi.
We can all speculate about his upbringing/parents/race/was he bullied as a child/ desi or sikh....it doesn't matter. We must concentrate on the fact that this school had open doors policy. Why? We live in Montreal and the murder rate of 20 per year pales in comparison to 20 to 30 murders per day in a city like New york. We beleive that we are safe and never think about anything bad happening like what happened yesterday. Maybe times are changing and we have to start locking are doors.....I know that I am double checking my tonight for the saftey of my children.
P.S. The poor girl who died is of portuguese decent and her parents are well known in the portuguese community.
Ennis:
I'm interested in this reaction from you. Did he need to explicitly self-identify as a Sikh to be one, or was it enough to occupy the broader position of having Sikhism as his "background religion"? Or is being loosely affiliated with a particular community no longer good enough; would he have had to wear the relevant physical markers to be a Sikh? Because he was probably born one, judging from a quick look at his name. Why is the "sense" in which he was a Sikh relevant to a discussion of why he shot people, or at all, unless there is concern here with drawing boundaries around who is, or can claim to be, or can be called, a Sikh?
Here's the link to the Globe and Mail article.
His quiz results say Satanist/Atheist, but those quizzes are pretty much just jokes. It doesn't seem like religion entered into his life much at all, to judge from his Vampirefreaks site
Sorry, the article's been changed. Here's a better one.
portrait of a killer
Checking her website, there's no speaking schedule so prolific as the one you state, most political commentators would have their schedule on their site, if indeed it existed. It depends on what you mean by mainstream, if you mean the media covers her, when she opens her mouth, then yes. But the media follows Paris Hilton's every move also. Why? because people want to, but can't tear their eyes away.
But when Ann opens her mouth, I think it's somewhat similar to Fallwell opening his mouth. Ann sells more books because she has nicer legs. When Michael Moore puts something out, the entire republican spin machine kicks into overtime, because they consider him a threat, a threat with influence. When Ann opens her mouth, the sensible people of the world turn and say "You're still around?"
Isn't that enough?
Is everybody who kills mentally ill? Mentally ill has a meaning in terms of brain function, attitudes, beliefs in general. Do you not believe that "normal" people can commit murder?
Halwa Puri - is Bobby Jindal a Hindu or a Catholic? Why?
the political fallout (blow up the pic to read the fine print)
1/2 minute snapshot - there's a minority government in place with the provincial quebec party providing the necessary bump to keep the conservative party in power. the conservative party has wanted to ban the gun registry and made it their party platform. the quebec party is now coming out against it. one is going to push reason. the other will counter with emotion. my take and hope is that harper backs off. so this is the first fallout.
next steps. they will trace the path of the gun. i anticipate the sales-channel to be scrutinized and bring out the drug nexus. it may lead into the hell's angels and gun-running. potentially greater legal powers for the law authorities to operate cross-provincially. we shall see.
Personally I don't, I think any act of murder is a mentally abnormal act, but even in the more "normal" cases of murder, it's usually pointed, planned, and well premeditated. Ranging from assassination of figures like MLK and JFK, to the attempted cheerleader hit in texas. All are well thought out. Even from what little we know, I think it's safe to conclude his brain was functioning abnormally.
By common Canadian standards, he is probably still 'Sikh'. He was born to Sikh parents and made no efforts to renounce his parents religion. But the Sikh angle is pretty irrelevant. All the press is about funny dressing Goths, and how the community shouldn't be blamed for the actions of the individual, how Goths have been vocal in condeming Gill, how Gill is not a true 'Goth', and how Goth means 'peace' in Gothic.
(I'm somewhat happy, and extremely unhappy for being happy, that the guy did not have a Punjabi Muslim name and was not born to Punjabi Muslim parents. Even under identical circumstances, the nutsos would be having a field day. Even as it is, there are still popular right-wing Canadian sites where commentors are revealing the true Muslim identity of Kimveeer Gill.)
There is, I think, a Desi angle here, highlighted a bit by comment number 70 (I also saw that interview about how the Gill kids were side-part nerds that were always picked on). Also stories about how the Gill family never mixed or socialized with their neighbours. Of course, being a socially ostracized, ultra-dorky Desi in a non-desi neighbourhood does not turn you into a mass-killer (too many here can relate to that identity), but it doesn't help.
If Gill were born and raised in (heavily Sikh) Surrey or Abbotsford, would he have been less alienated?Or would his mental illness simply have been expressed in a duifferent way?
Dude. Er...it kind of sounds like you're angry.
A few points of clarification:
I never claimed that this was "accidental." Far from it! It was very deliberate. But you seek to understand his actions; I'm explaining what motivates a person to pick up a gun and start shooting. It's very simple. It's a complete lack of understanding.
Alpha-male is not really a good term. It generally refers to the dominant male in wolfpacks, but it gets stretched to human society because we're somewhat analagous in certain ways (and not so much in others...we don't really run in packs, and when we do, there can sometimes be multiple dominant personalities, not necessarily constrained by gender). I'm not sure what your own example says, though. Could you clarify?
You say "I would never do this," but I posit the following. There are a great many pressures that prevent you from wasting your peers after a bad day at work. First, your parents probably raised you at least semi-right. Next, you have friends you can probably vent to (or at least SM to post to) when you have a bad day and they'll either hear you out or maybe even offer something constructive. Also, you have a deep understanding of morality: you care about the consequences of your actions. You would not want to subject your own family to that kind of pain, and probably not some stranger's family, either...because you are capable of empathy.
Empathy is a luxury, though. The disenfranchised rarely feel empathy towards anyone but themselves, and frequently with good reason!
And finally...I am deeply, deeply, disturbed by your last sentence in my quote.
Agreed. Even on a cultural level, if you're light skinned and wearing a mohawk, you're probably passing.
I don't know - writing in public places that he hates G-d, and publicizing beliefs that are either atheist or satanist sounds like a pretty complete renunciation to me.
From stuff I've read more recently about his family, I think you could say that he grew up with Sikh parents. But he seems as Sikh to me as Bobby Jindal is Hindu.
Incidentally, about integration and separation, it did strike me that he had an integration name. There is no name Kimveer. If you google it, he's the only one who comes up. He's clearly meant to be called "Kim". It's like naming him Davideep, or Matthewpreet or Jiminder. It would seem his parents wanted him to "fit in" to mainstream Canadian society.
More on his social context:
This was not a family living in a ghetto.
Why would his "Indian" ancestry be mentioned at all??
While I can see why skin colour/appearance may be useful in nabbing a suspect, I don't get why, after the fact, would need to be outed as "Indian" How is this useful or relevant information? I have read this info in just about every article.
Did newspapers mention Timothy McVeigh's ancestry after the bombings? Did they say he was of Scottish or Irish ancestry?
Do these journalists not think about this? Or are they so privileged so that they don't even have to think about it?
It's a quote from his blog, it's how he described himself. That's the justification, whether you find it satisfactory is a different matter.
Journalists still get to choose the quotes.
I do agree that the goth factor is the biggest focus in this case, but still, trying to paint this dude as the scary immigrant is another. I'm not saying it's concious, deliberate decision - it's societal - and it's troubling - and it needs more thought.
Ennis wrote:
Incidentally, about integration and separation, it did strike me that he had an integration name.
If Kimveer's parents chose the name because they wanted him to be caled "Kim" at school, they were doing him no favours. Other than amogn elderly Englishmen, 'kim' is a girl's name. Life ain't easy for a boy named Sue. (His brothers are named Anmol and Balroop.)
As for his background being mentioned, I don't see anything offensive. The victim's portuguese heritage is also mentioned in every article on her. Your ethnic background is part of your identity. Kimveer's brown heritage It would have been mentioned if he had died fighting Taliban in Afghanistan, or if he got elected Premier of Quebec.
"As for his background being mentioned, I don't see anything offensive. "
I am not saying that his ethnic identity has nothing to do with him on a deeply personal/individual level, or yours has nothing to do with you - but it has nothing to do with this case. EVEN more telling - I don't know the ethnic backgrounds of alot of the soldiers that died in Afghanistan, because the newspapers don't mention this. I don't know our Prime Minister's ethnic background - because the newspapers don't mention it. Sure, I could do a google search on their last name - but my point is, the newspapers don't mention these facts. Why? When you're Canadian, you're Canadian, why go back 1, 2, 3...8 generations and write about the ancestral background? This seems to be a favour granted to non-whites, more often that not.
That could have been prevented had the parents spent time sowing the seeds of that understanding.
Alpha male in the human setting is usually used to describe someone who's socially powerful - basically someone that can pull chicks. By saying he has an "alpha male" complex, it in part insinuates he doesn't do well with the womenfolk. My example was, in effect, "I don't do well with women either, (perhaps I suffer from the same alpha male complex) but I'm not locking and loading any time soon."
You're too kind. no really.
SM admins are you getting this? Not only are you providing a space for intelligent debate on relevant issues, you're preventing horrific, deadly rampages as we speak!
The premise behind my post is: what's happened to him that hasn't happened to truckloads of other people? So I don't attach it to purely environmental causes. Sorry, but I see no reason to grant him any quarter on this.
[NOTE: I DO NOT CONDONE OR SUPPORT OR PRACTICE OR WOULD EVER PERPETRATE SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST ANYONE AT ANY TIME BUT ONLY MAKE THIS STATEMENT FOR PURPOSE OF ARGUMENT, EXAGGERATION, AND HYPERBOLE]
After a quick search of which articles mention that Kimveer Gill was a Sikh, there seems to be a greater tendency for aricles from India based media to state that Gill was a Sikh.
Relatively speaking, the Indian media are making a bigger deal out of him being Sikh (or being born into a Sikh family) than the Western media. It's a known fact that Sikhs are usually portrayed unfairly and negatively in Indian media, so it doesn't surprise me.
Google News Search for kimveer+gill+sikh
I don't think that the Western media is going out of its way to say that Gill was Sikh. Obviously some will mention it, its a fact. Most are just using what Gill said on his website - that he is INDIAN.
Metric -- I see your point. Ethnic background is mentioned when the person seems not to be a 'real' Canadian. Gordon McGordon or Laurent Leblanc. But it's not always a white thing -- Major Hess von Krudener, the soldier killed in Southern Lebanon recently, had his Dutch background mentioned in news stories. Probably becuase he had a funny name, and the newspapers needed to 'explain' it.
If so, then the statement wasn't necessary in the first place. Rape fantasies are cool only between informed consenting adults. If you were trying to tell us that you wrestle with violent inclinations, that's one thing (and you should get help). But if it was just for shock value, not cool. Let's try to keep this a safe and open space where everyone can be comfortable.
His background is part of the story because in Canada you're always a hyphenated-Canadian. I've been described in the press as Irish-Canadian. It's just a multiculti thing.
I agree that the Goth angle is where it's at. Not all Goths are into murder, obviously, but Gill was a violent, nihilistic and suicidally depressed man, and part of the way he expressed that was an ongoing fascination with death. Hence, Goth. The real story here is the mental illness that is so obvious in his blog.
One very interesting fact is that he was a regular on this website, where he consistently posted that kids who post on their blogs their intention to shoot up a school are all "joking," each and every one of them.
And the gun trail is not going to lead anywhere. All of his guns were properly registered and Gill himself says that he wasn't a druggie. He was a drunk.
Tony, you're right. The Indian media is tribalist, and this confirms negative stereotypes widely held about Sikhs. So of course they use it. I'm sure this is big on whatever the desi equivalent of soc.culture.us-asian.indian is these days. However, I doubt these same media outlets described Biswanath Halder as Hindu.
Point taken. I don't wrestle with violent anythings, I guess shock value is the closest thing. It was more of a "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse" type thing, as in "I've been so nice to women to no avail that..." Didn't mean to offend.
just thought i'd share it because this is the first practical application i've come across for the gun registry. it does make sense. let's say gill had committed a lesser violent assault - surely the registry would hav