Abhi,

I wouldn't speak so soon. You stil have to meet Pardesi Gori tomorrow. As matchmaker- matchmaker, I don't forsee you being on the market much longer after tomorrow... ;-)

I think she counts as upper caste. There is no incentive there. Show me the money!

As an upper-caste Bengali I have to let you know you're a jerk! Lucky bastard.

You stil have to meet Pardesi Gori tomorrow

zing!

shit like dis makes me happy i'm an american :-) brown ass no bar....

WWGD?

Actually, Pardesi Gori would count as an untouchable (all non-Hindus are untouchables), presuming she actually IS white as she claims (and not some particularly clever and malicious desi troll). Doubt the deal holds for unions between brahmins and white untouchables though.

Incidentally, what's to keep people from marrying, splitting the pot, then divorcing their spouses? Or merely dumping them and taking up with others? Won't this sort of thing encourage rampant immorality? Seems to me the thing hasn't been thought through.

But the best offer is the Bicycle scheme in TN and Karnataka. Schoolgirls get a bicycle free to get to school. :)

Abhi, it's all upside for you -- your kids will retain brahman status

Last year, the pastor of a black church in LA offered $5 to any white person who would attend service saying "Sunday morning 11am is the most segregated time in America". Most members of the congregation were enthusiastic and offered to put up the money and when the news spread, many white people decided to join this church (for free).

50,000 rupees? pffff. Abhi, in some parts, one can collect over Rs. 10 million (1 crore) for just being in the right caste and finishing college (plus being born with the right kind of genitals). I don't know if your Gujju status gives you this. Of course, this is "criminal" and it won't be the government giving it to you, but you can be sure they at least won't get in your way.

Incidentally, what's to keep people from marrying, splitting the pot, then divorcing their spouses? Or merely dumping them and taking up with others? Won't this sort of thing encourage rampant immorality? Seems to me the thing hasn't been thought through.

They will never learn. This chinese village has a 98% divorce rate.

as my friend iton udesenata would say: "she got a big booty?"

Yesterday my editor in chief wanted to make this very issue his top topic of discussion and frankly i was not convinced ? what is there to discuss in it.The whole idea may be absurd to us but as you said for a country whose
75 percent of population struggles to basically feed themselves two times a day the money is a fortune.Lets face
the facts that marriage pre dominantly is a business transaction in most families. The caste divide is a ugly
reality in india where death is the only punishment for a person who crosses it.Nothing absolutely nothing not
even eductaion is going to erase this line.But maybe the aspiration of affording 3 instead of 2 meals a day,a
piece of land or a bullock may be able to pull off what emotions,conditioning or the screams of a burning child
could not.

Time to look for higher caste bride eh! have to practice my break-off speech
"I don't want to break our ties, but sigh! Life has to go on, and it is a matter of National Importance"

DharmaQueen:
Actually, Pardesi Gori would count as an untouchable (all non-Hindus are untouchables)

As a practising "upper caste" hindu in india, i'd have to say this is news to me. So all Muslims and christians are untouchables? Wow, founding a new school of "dharma" to be queen, are we?
While I have seen hindus go "all religions are the same and equal" (the other extreme), i have not come across any hindu equivalent of the islamic concept of non-believers. Can u edu(ma)cate me?

As a practising "upper caste" hindu in india, i'd have to say this is news to me. So all Muslims and christians are untouchables?

i have read DQs point in books. perhaps the practice is different. i am to understand that some brahmins treated rajputs at mlecchas because of their reputed central asian ancestry. i just checked google books and there are many references to muslims, and fewer, but still some, of british, as mlecchas. perhaps this is not accurate, but i don't mind being educated.

p.s. of course the hindus were not always in a position to enforce the position of the muslims and british as mlecchas. the point was (in the books) that the theory entailed they were.

Abhi,

You gotta give us better blog-crack than this.

Regards,

Kiddie

well christians and muslims do not follow under the caste category they come under the marginalized section.
well i guess mostly every christian and musilm has a hindu lineage (somebdy in the tree had converted) therefor
that caste holds. But in india lawfully the caste for them is regarded as none.therefor i guess they wont fall
under the criteria,

Sad. If that government directive is true. Won't it encourage touts to marry, obtain the marriage certificate, get the cash reward, and share the booty? I mean.. wtf. To try to blot out something like casteism - and other social divides after 60 odd years of self-rule(which is what the Indian independence movement was supposed to empower all Indians with) with a directive like this can at best be called laughable. I _so_ want to add an expletive to express my emotion at this, but maybe that would be inappropriate.

But what are we doing about this? What am I doing? The sad thing is, all political parties will want to rally behind stuff like this. For all the "world's largest written constitution" and "taking the best from all constitutions of the world", I wonder where we have really got to. And what am I doing about it?

Madhurima,

The caste divide is a ugly reality in india where death is the only punishment for a person who crosses it.

Huh?

Abhi buddy,

I have a lot of factors working against my search for a bride/girlfriend here in the U.S.,

Restricting your options to Indian (presumably Hindu) girls may not necessarily be helping matters -- especially considering the smaller numbers of desis in the US (percentage-wise, compared to the total population) and the fact that the Indian community over there isn't as concentrated and "close-knit" as it is in Britain. Unless you genuinely do only want to marry an Indian woman, which is of course none of my business and not something you need to justify to me.

I'm just voicing some objective thoughts so please don't interpret this as being facetious or anything; it's just something which occurred to me a while ago, as you've mentioned the difficulties in finding suitable partners a few times previously.

Razib,

i am to understand that some brahmins treated rajputs at mlecchas because of their reputed central asian ancestry.

I have some Rajput ancestry myself (very long story) and I hadn't heard of this kind of behaviour. As far as I know, the people who became known as the Rajputs were officially "inducted" into the warrior caste via various ceremonies by the local brahmins. At least according to various scholarly tracts on the matter; you may have also heard the myth of the Rajput clans "springing out of the fire" at a ceremony on top of Mount Abu in Rajasthan, but it stands to reason that this was probably more likely to be referring to the aforementioned induction ceremony.

This is of course further complicated by the fact that Rajputs also historically claimed descent from the warriors present during the Kuruskhetra war described in the Mahabharata, and Rajput royal families used to take it even further back with regards to Suryavanshi and Raghuvanshi clans (I believe the latter was the royal dynasty of Rama). The historical validity of this is a blurred subject, but perhaps something to consider.

Anyway, I don't want to detract from the main topic but just thought I'd add my own 5 cents as this is part of my own heritage. Back to finding a suitable bride for Abhi :)

Jai, old bean, eyebrows were raised nationwide worldwide upon reading that Abhi the Eligible will soon be a Doctor of Philosophy in Something or Other.

Jai- is Rajput ancestry common among Punjabis? Does this pedigree function as a caste determinant in Punjab in any way?

I must stress that I find the caste system and any other system of human taxonomy, whether it has its basis on race, socio-economic factors, etc. to be deplorable and wholly incongruent with the humanist and democratic perspectives I espouse, but I still regard it and its machinations with the same fascination I reserve for serial killers, religious extremism, Bill O'Reilly, and other blights upon humanity.

Everyone on this blog is an upper caste Hindu yet they are magnanimous enough to step down down from their privileged pedestals to speak against casteism today.I am so affected by their noble thoughts that I vow to spawn a few more lower caste Hindu kids in your honor,so that your upper caste progeny could kiss them and hug them and yet again assert their"upper casteism" on them.

As a practising "upper caste" hindu in india, i'd have to say this is news to me. So all Muslims and christians are untouchables?

No, they're not. As a Christian some self-conscious distant family friends changed their name from Lobo to Lobo-Prabhu to show that they weren't from a lower caste, and some Indian Catholics retain their castes. Even though my family doesn't recognise the caste system at all we do have an historian cousin who found out our caste and there are people who are v aware of it. After reading the God Of Small Things I thought I was lower caste and was doing v well feeling tragically sorry for my ancestors who had to brush away their own footprints etc. until someone killed it and said our original Hindu name was Brahmin. Sucks ass when you turn out to be the oppressor! :P

Abhi,

sometimes 'matrimonial help' can work against your favour. I receive regular emails for my joke profile FatAndBlack from Shaadi.com...and when I was checking my email on my laptop during a law lecture guess what pops up on my gmail in full view of those around me? NOT a good look...

DJ Drrrty Poonjabi,

is Rajput ancestry common among Punjabis?

Less common amongst Sikhs, the greater proportion of whom are Jatts. However, the Patiala royal family are Rajputs, for example. I also believe that significant numbers of Rajputs and other members of the professional warrior caste joined the Sikh cause during the militarisation of the community in order to assist Guru Hargobind with their expertise in warfare, several generations before Guru Gobind Singh formed the Khalsa and the militarisation of Sikhs occurred en masse.

I'll let Hindu Punjabis on SM detail how common it is amongst them, although I believe the actress Preity Zinta is a Rajput (she's originally from Shimla in Himachal Pradesh, which used to be a part of Punjab as we all know).

As I mentioned, my own family's link to the Rajputs is a very long story indeed. Like Ennis, I like to keep personal information divulged on SM to a minimum in order to maintain detachment and my own anonymity, unless it's of some kind of benefit to the discussion or in order to clarify the context of any comments I make, so I don't really want to go into any great detail here.

Does this pedigree function as a caste determinant in Punjab in any way?

Unfortunately it probably does amongst those who are so inclined.

Non von Mises,

Yes yes, I know I was stating the obvious, it occurred to me even while I was writing it. I was just trying to help a brother out. I'm sure Abhi's got everything already figured out anyway and (hopefully) knows exactly what he's doing ;)

I receive regular emails for my joke profile FatAndBlack from Shaadi.com..

Ooh ooh, do we get a link to your vaguely offensive profile? How about letting us snicker at some of the emails?

Everyone on this blog is an upper caste Hindu yet they are magnanimous enough to step down down from their privileged pedestals to speak against casteism today.I am so affected by their noble thoughts that I vow to spawn a few more lower caste Hindu kids in your honor,so that your upper caste progeny could kiss them and hug them and yet again assert their"upper casteism" on them.

Something leads me to believe you post comments from under a bridge while you wait for billy goats to cross.

Jai - thanks for the informative response, I appreciate your answer.

Like Ennis, I like to keep personal information divulged on SM to a minimum in order to maintain detachment and my own anonymity, unless it's of some kind of benefit to the discussion or in order to clarify the context of any comments I make, so I don't really want to go into any great detail here.

I've met Ennis and, based on his own admission, he fiercely protects his privacy out of fear that his successful moonlighting as an Elvis impersonator is discovered.

Whoops, I just let the cat out of the bag. @=)

DJ Drrrty Poonjabi

--Something leads me to believe you post comments from under a bridge while you wait for billy goats to cross.

Thats not what I wanted you to believe.Anyways failure to understand my sarcasm and then alluding to some silly fable to cover it up makes me wanna call you a
Dee Dee Dee
lol

DJ Drrrty Poonjabi

--Something leads me to believe you post comments from under a bridge while you wait for billy goats to cross.

Thats not what I wanted you to believe.Anyways failure to understand my sarcasm and then alluding to some silly fable to cover it up makes me wanna call you a
Dee Dee Dee
lol

Whoops, my bad. A lack on intonation inherent in text makes it difficult for me to differentiate the Moornam from the Spoorlam.

The fable was supposed to be a snide way of refering to you as a troll, but I see that you failed to understand that as well. All is good in the end. @=)

There you go again Dee Dee Dee!!!
Trolls n dolls n goats.
Huh
You should have called me sponge bob or something,because I am not too familiar with Norwegian myths.
But I digress,Mr Dee Dee Dee you still don't get my point.Your friend Tashi did.
Anyways I tried hard.

do you think 'caste' is a necessary evil - we seem to be gravitating to it socially anyway - and havent escaped its lure in conversation anyhow. class segregation is inevitable and we seek race, language, religion to band together for centers of power. the absence of caste is the absence of social net for a lot of people as seen in modern india - the problem with indian cities is the absence of a social net, because government does not have an alternateive - we see escalating crime, senior abuse - in spite of government rulings - the strongest/most prosperous communities are those that have banded together around caste or creed to create niche societal spaces they leverage for industry or professional services, witness the diamond marts, the weavers, the rug industry, the morgue services etc. to repudiate caste outright may nto be wise - because while its abuses are abominable, its absence would leave a vacuum that would be chaotic.

excellent post Abhi. As a fellow guju brahmin, I'm considering making a marital trek to the motherland too. I can really use that $1,100 to finally pay that loan shark who keeps breaking my limbs..

Dear DJ Drrrty :)

From FatAndBlack, 4 foot 11, heavy set, lower caste, non-handicapped (yep that is actually a search option on the site, handicapped or non) and NZ citizen...

More About Myself

My Personality, Long-Term Goals, Partner Expectations, etc

hi. i am (sic) young professional with moderate values looking for a like-minded person to share fun, exciting and pleasant times with. i have an unconventional appearance for a woman of my culture, but i believe that internal qualities are the most important. i am very career-focussed and have so far been successful in my chosen profession, and intend to keep climbing the corporate ladder. i am very family-oriented and would like to have more children in the future. i already have two from my previous relationship with a european man, but my rejuvenated christian belief has let me have faith that love can happen the second time around!

Sample message:

" hi. how r u gorgeous. i am from fiji having a visitors permit of two months before i am returning to suva. at present i am staying with my sister and her husband in south auckland. maybe we can meet, i like to get to know u. am looking to settle in new zealand working in autoshop in fiji. i am awaiting your reply."

Dear Lower Caste:

Anyways I tried hard

Yeah, mate, you really did :)

No, they're not.

But the clear majority of Christians in India are Dalit converts.

I thought I was lower caste and was doing v well feeling tragically sorry for my ancestors who had to brush away their own footprints etc. until someone killed it and said our original Hindu name was Brahmin. Sucks ass when you turn out to be the oppressor!

Like very many non-Hindus, its interesting you manage to tell us of your Brahmin lineage (albeit couched in apologies and caveats). This way you get to be a "progressive", a Christian who has transcended it all apparently, and still of the "highest" caste.

Neat trick

!!!

Abhi: Search for bride is making your life miserable ?? I thought I have heard it all before. This is a new one! True, you are not getting any younger, but what counts is "young at heart", age does not matter - at least that's what they tell me - As for mountain of debt excuse, in just less than a year,starting next January your NASA hefty salary will wipe out all that. Yo Parents have been insisting "it's time" since you started shaving, anyway - like at age 12?. The last handicap that "You Blog" - if anything, should help and not hinder your chances of getting a suitable girl. Let us forget about "cashing on" your "Gujarati Brahmin" heritage. You are just a born "Brahmin" - like I am. One is "Brahmin" by one's "Karma" and not "Janma". It will happen when it will happen! And when it will happen - probabbly in a split second - you won't even know it that it happened. Trust me I have been there.. Love.. Dad
Taz: I hope you are right. After meeting this "Fair Foreign Girl" - Abhishek is off the "Available" list.

I guess nothing panned out during your weekend away at that wedding. Did you not stop at a CVS, beta? Oh, no -- now I'm really sounding like an Auntie, and I'm WAY too young for that. :)

50,000 to Brahmins?!

I would think you would have to pay the other castes to marry a Brahmin.

No, don't get your panties/boxers in a twist. I think a life sentence of Thayir Saadam(curd rice) is worth at least a few lakhs. I'm married to one of those and its torture. I am truly deprived. I can only dream of Biryani and juicy steaks. Who will pay me?

Caste Away,

I based my statement on the mounds of stories which tell of Hindus in old times refusing to eat with the British and with Muslims because they were 'out-castes', refusing to invite them into their homes etc (practices which, interestingly, were thrown out the window in some quarters because of economic interest). In my family whites were regarded, a few generations back, as out-castes. I believe that just as the Japanese became 'honorary whites' during the era of apartheid in S.A. due to such economic interest, whites gradually became the out-castes who were somehow acceptable.

Not being a scholar in casteism, however, I welcome edu(ma)cation from someone who is.

Just back from a visit to India. I am angered by the talk of caste everywhere (North/South India). This comes up during conversations
about marriage, elections, persons who clean the home, neighbours ad nauseam.
I have a way to fix this caste issue once and for all time.
From now on all kids shall have their father first name as their last name. In three generations when all the oldies die out
caste is history.

#41.
just an educated guess but perhaps the lower castes don't need as much enticement on average to marry people of higher castes.

Abhi, TFF!

Perhaps you'll be off the available-eligibles list after the L.A. meetup-

but in the meantime, i just wanted to chime in that you should by no means consider blogging as a detriment to finding girl-love.

I started bloging just around the time i got engaged, 'cos once names like "snow-monkey" and "mango-monkey" come out of the woodwork, there's very little opportunity to exercise your voice on other important schtuff--the state of the world, for instance :)

Guys- I am an FOB, with nary an ABCD friend, thus this curious query.

Do the ABCDs (read, cool accented, amreekan citizens) amongst you get bombarded with girls/marriage prospects by aunties/uncles on your visits to desh?
If yes, over the last decade, (due to economic progress) has this changed at all ?

Taz: I hope you are right. After meeting this "Fair Foreign Girl" - Abhishek is off the "Available" list.

I love Yo Dad, can I just say? As for taking Abhi off the available list tonight, there ain't nothing that I'm not willing to do for the sake of entertainment value for the mutinous. Call it hands on investigative blogging.

DJ DP

How can anyone not get the three billy goat gruff reference? I thought it was quite clever. I fondly remember that story as the first play i ever acted in. I was 5 and in kindergarten. I crawled in my hands and knees and played a goat.

I've met Ennis and, based on his own admission, he fiercely protects his privacy out of fear that his successful moonlighting as an Elvis impersonator is discovered.

Whoops, I just let the cat out of the bag. @=)

"I don't smoke dope, I don't drink Bourbon, All I wanna do is shake my turban!"

I based my statement on the mounds of stories which tell of Hindus in old times refusing to eat with the British and with Muslims because they were 'out-castes', refusing to invite them into their homes etc

I'd heard the same thing about white people being "out-castes" as well. The eating test is a good one - if somebody refuses to eat with somebody lower caste than them, will they eat with a white man? Also, as I recall, there are temples in the south where white people are not allowed, again for caste reasons.

However, it's not clear this applies to Pardesi Gori since she seems to have been raised a hindu, so I imagine at some point she was given some caste status. I dunno - what caste are the ISKON-ites? Saheli - do you know?

please. whites are the new brahmins. just look at the grin on the faces of desi men and women with white partners. if you go white, you've achieved something. as much as your families might complain about a white partner, if they converted to your religion would they still complain? and would they respond the same way to a Black partner? i doubt it.

and yes, i'm exaggerating to make a point with "whites are the new brahmins"

anyway, I think this is a good incentive system; at least it cancels out some of the possible class conflict potentially caused by dowry issues. i don't think intermarriage is a panacea for oppression - otherwise you could negatively correlate intermarriage rates with racism, which is highly questionable - but as far as the caste system, maybe it's a good thing.

Unfortunately, these rates are way lower than the opportunity cost of foregone dowry payments. However, they may go some way to defray the other costs associated with marrying somebody lower caste, the financial costs associated with business ostracism, etc. It wont help people in small villages where people are afraid for their safety if they marry out.

please. whites are the new brahmins. just look at the grin on the faces of desi men and women with white partners.

This gives a new twist to the often used term - Boston Brahmin.
:-)

Abhi
The amount offered in WB is musch lower than in Gujarat because caste is not such a deal there. Au contraire in Gujarat I doubt even the 1000 bucks is gonna achieve anything.

No, don't get your panties/boxers in a twist. I think a life sentence of Thayir Saadam(curd rice) is worth at least a few lakhs. I'm married to one of those and its torture. I am truly deprived. I can only dream of Biryani and juicy steaks. Who will pay me?

dont mess with puli ogre and thayir saadam. u will make me angry. you will not like me when i am angry.

JesusChrist, it's hella freakin' time that this smelly string I've worn since I was a kid helped me to snag a buxom wife and some cash! On behalf of the academy, I'd like to thank all that is holy, kind and loving that those long hours of Gayatri recitation with my uncles in the Nagpur heat has finally reached their long-fated destiny.

Hallelujah!

Do the ABCDs (read, cool accented, amreekan citizens) amongst you get bombarded with girls/marriage prospects by aunties/uncles on your visits to desh? If yes, over the last decade, (due to economic progress) has this changed at all ?

I am 22 and already they are sending pcitures, faxes, emails and whatnot. I wanna go back to visit but i am scared for my future.

"I don't smoke dope, I don't drink Bourbon, All I wanna do is shake my turban!"

Ennis, I've been laughing ever since I read this line. Thanks for introducing me to Peter Singh.

From now on all kids shall have their father first name as their last name. In three generations when all the oldies die out caste is history.

Some of us already do that. Actually some of us down south, have been doing that for close to fifty years now.

thanks brooklynbrown... all i needed to see was a roo checking out the gonads of another roo. the things i know now that i wish i didnt.

One is "Brahmin" by one's "Karma" and not "Janma".

Thank you Yo Dad! Now the rest of the Brahmins need to catch with that!

thanks brooklynbrown... all i needed to see was a roo checking out the gonads of another roo. the things i know now that i wish i didnt.

The funniest part about that link is how it puts "The Rocking Sikh" on the same level as Catherine Zeta Jones? Is this a reflection on her marriage to uber-geezer Michael Douglas? I'll leave that up to you.

Thank you Yo Dad! Now the rest of the Brahmins need to catch with that!

Yo Dad is extremely enlightened. Most "traditional" Brahmins I've talked to in religious contexts would never concede this. Brahmanas to them by janma (birth) and not karma and guna (as the Gita holds) or the Vajrasuckica Upanishad.

Yo Dad is extremely enlightened.

Ha! Myself and Yo brother (and we won't even consider Yo Mom) would disagree with you there. Hell, that might even be a ban worthy comment :)

until someone killed it and said our original Hindu name was Brahmin. Sucks ass when you turn out to be the oppressor

of course, this is why everyone has to mention that their ancestors were brahmin.... :-)

I am in my late 20's and still do not know what caste my ancestors were. It was never talked about, and since I picked up on alot of subtle information as a youngster, I assume that it wasn't even hinted at. I am guessing that there is alot of inter-caste marriage in most of my extended family. And I'm not curious, either. It was only when I visited these boards did I get that people care about this.

My question is, do most of you grow up with a knowledge of your caste, and/or discussions about it?

u will make me angry.

I'll try harder...

Puli Ogre in da USA is really a Thayir Saadam? Or is the moniker 'Thayir Saadam' reserved for girls? : )

It was only when I visited these boards did I get that people care about this.

i have the same experience.

My question is, do most of you grow up with a knowledge of your caste, and/or discussions about it?

i only understood issues of caste or status as it pertained to my own family when i went to bangladesh, and only via implication and inference (and subsequent checking in google).

p.s. my own familial background is "mixed" in a variety of ways, so that might be the issue...when you lack purity you don't pass on memory of it to your children.

vivo @ #44

just an educated guess but perhaps the lower castes don't need as much enticement on average to marry people of higher castes.

Upper Castes and Lower Castes will sit down together and figure out how to diddle the Indian Gov't, get the pay-out and still keep their castes. New levels of cooperation will be witnessed by history.

of course, this is why everyone has to mention that their ancestors were brahmin.... :-)

Good one. This is like that color issue thread (guranteed 500 comments BTW) where similar thing .......

On a more serious note:

If the Indian government wants to better integrate the North and the South, the East and the West, who should they pay to marry whom?

I request the Mutiny scholars to work this out as they usually do: using statistics and complex algorithm.

"Good one. This is like that color issue thread (guranteed 500 comments BTW) where similar thing ......."

it is better to light than dark, and brahmin than dalit. my point would be the same as in the color thread: in the USA these differences are irrelevant. we can acknowledge they exist, but lingering over them is a waste.

different in brownland of course.

it is better to light than dark, and brahmin than dalit.

just to be clear, i don't mean it is objectively better or should be better. but if you mention something, even to slight yourself, that is an indication of the status it confers. this is not true of everyone of course, it is a generalization. but few people talk about being black skinned or dalit in a way that indicates that they know others will envy them :)

Razib: Does rural, Bangladeshi Muslim village society have caste distinctions? My impression was that the majority of Muslim farmers there basically form one homogenous group.

Jai and Drrty Poonjabi:

Rajputs among Hindu Punjabis are rare; Rajputs among Sikhs are to be found but constitute a small percentage of the overall Sikh population; however, ironically, Muslim Punjabi Rajputs (all in Pakistan) are quite common, especially in the Potohar region (Rawalpindi and surrounding districts). For that matter, most of the Mirpuris in the UK are of Rajput background. Mirpur is near the Potohari area, and its dialect is similar to Rawalpindi Punjabi. I don't know many details about the gradual conversion of Rajput clans to Islam in Punjab but it was fairly widespread.

Razib: Does rural, Bangladeshi Muslim village society have caste distinctions? My impression was that the majority of Muslim farmers there basically form one homogenous group.

honestly, i don't much about this. but yes, there are distinctions. your family name is a good indicator. those with mughal ancestry vs. those without. just to be clear, my own family has branches which are recently coverted from hinduism (my paternal grandmother, maternal grandfather's family sometime in the early within generational memory), so i was including that in. my mother made a reference to her father's familial name (which i never new), and it sounded familiar. i googled it, and it matched the occupation which she mentioned exactly in the hindu caste list for bengalis. she never said that the family was originally hindu, but to remember caste occupational profession suggests to me that it was more recent than i had understood.

If Indians have learned tact then THAT'S a big change over the past decade!

Do the ABCDs (read, cool accented, amreekan citizens) amongst you get bombarded with girls/marriage prospects by aunties/uncles on your visits to desh? If yes, over the last decade, (due to economic progress) has this changed at all ?

Not in the desh. Here's my take: If you're from a village, you are an attractive prospect to families there. If you are from the cities and are from an upper middle class family, you become semi-mlechha, and are not as attractive to the people there. I think Indian females in India prefer Indian males to ABD males. People may disagree.

Here, my parents were like, "we know people if your interested," once every six months or so. No high pressure, but that's just my experience, again, people may have different experiences.

In addition to the Muslim Rajputs, another notable thing about the Potohari region (Rawalpindi, Chakwal, Jhelum, Gujjar Khan, etc) is that it had a decent amount of Hindus (about 15-20%) prior to Partition, and the culture there, even among Muslims (who were predominantly descended from local converts anyway) had a strong Hindu stamp, in terms of wedding rituals, fairs and festivals, superstitions, etc. I believe a lot of that has changed in the decades post-Partition. There used to be some major Hindu temple complexes in that region as well, now completely in disrepair; many Sikh shrines and some major gurudwaras as well.

Benazir Bhutto is a famous Muslim Rajput, although from Sindh.

Abhi, you should marry whomever you want, but only if she allows you to pass down the family title of "Yo" to indicate your descendants.

Restricting your options to Indian (presumably Hindu) girls may not necessarily be helping matters -- especially considering the smaller numbers of desis in the US (percentage-wise, compared to the total population) and the fact that the Indian community over there isn't as concentrated and "close-knit" as it is in Britain.

It depends on who you realate with, but as I've gotten older I've noticed that people TEND to marry those of their educational, social, religious background (yes, even people who are secular like many Jews in NYC). There is nothing wrong with that, but sometimes I worry b/c there are EVEN FEWER Bangladeshis here in US (for me)!!!

This is nuts- I spelled my NAME wrong!!! LOL!!!

I meant LESS Bangladeshis than Indians (above post). Seriously, I need to get cracking on finding a guy...

Here, my parents were like, "we know people if your interested," once every six months or so. No high pressure, but that's just my experience, again, people may have different experiences.

Yes, that is like my family. I think FOB girls/guys get more proposals, but I haven't known A LOT of them. It's more "normal" to them than to ABCDs (DUH!!!)

Razib, how does one find out if they have Mughal ancestry? Just curious...

please. whites are the new brahmins. just look at the grin on the faces of desi men and women with white partners.

It's GREAT to see happily married people, no matter what race in our modern world. There are many reasons for this though, I feel that top one is that upper and middle-class desis and white folks have TONS in common in the US cities and suburbs. Hey, they grew up around each other since the '60s, right?

how does one find out if they have Mughal ancestry

ask your family back in the old country, they are more interested in this stuff. surname can give you a clue. a lot of the time it is made up, but to be "mughal" really means in the broadest sense that your family received a sinecure and title from the mughals at some point. in bengal many mughal families used to speak urdu until they were assimilated in the 19th and early 20th centuries. just keep in mind a lot of the past is just made up stuff to make people happy about their "past." everyone is the descendent of slaves & kings.

just look at the grin on the faces of desi men and women with white partners.

you want to know why i have a grin on my face??? .... >8-)

God, not another bogus goverment scheme that can be ripped off by local officials ! Sigh ! When will we stop accepting this kind of easily corrupted handouts?

Now promising that every indian child will complete 10th grade, now, that would be worth something. But then there would be little money to rip off, isn't it?

Re: these caste distinctions, maybe I just grew up in some parallel universe, but 50% of my high school class and maybe upto 75% of my college class married across jati and religous background. Many of these weddings had some quite complex negotiations: how do you explain to orthodox tamil hindus that a fish has a key role in a bengali wedding? And the need for the punjabi baratees to have 7-8 drinks each before they arrive at the staid UP brides home? I wont even get into the parsee-himachali wedding or the ahom-tambram combo. And all this in the 70s and 80s! Admittedly, I grew up in a big city and went to one of these places that accept 0.0001% of all applicants.

Neat trick

!!!

It's not a trick. I never tell people about my caste, and if they assume I'm lower caste I don't correct them with being Brahmin because I'm not. It's embarrassing and stupid. And I know I'm in a v small minority and even refused to believe it and thought that historian person had just made it up but it's been verified through the type of dialect and diet habits or something. But I just wanted to show that not all people who have converted are Dalits because they're not. If I was a Dalit but knew of people who weren't I would have mentioned them, it just happens to be me.

This way you get to be a "progressive", a Christian who has transcended it all apparently, and still of the "highest" caste.

Calm down mate. In fact I have this thing with a friend of mine where if Indian people do ask us our caste I always say I'm an outcaste to make them uncomfortable. I don't even know what the middle ones are, and to this day my highest source of knowledge on the caste system is an Arundhati Roy novel. Maybe you think I sound like so many non-Hindus, but I don't know that many so I can't really comment on that.

But you seem a bit aggro. You need a hug :)

Sumiti and Desitude: Thanks.

Abhi and rest of the Yo Yo's (Saheli has a good point) may disagree but sometime people who are far away can see the light or "Aura" much clearer than those who are nearby and "in your face" all the time. If there is indeed a place we call "heaven" up there somewhere - which I personally do not believe - as both heaven and hell is a state of mind and it is right here - I assure you "GOD" worthy of my respect will not check at the gate whether one was born "Brahmin" or "Shudra". Lighten up folks and marry whomever is willing to bite the bullet with you. Life is an accident, and still largely an unsolved mystery. Right Razib ??

But I just wanted to show that not all people who have converted are Dalits because they're not.

this is objectively true. nevertheless, in the context of this blog you have to be careful of what you say *shrug* color & caste matters. no one here is slyly implying that their ancestors were dalits.

look, i had an acquaintance of mine mock me because my family was of muslim origin, and everyone knows that "muslism are converted from dalits." i didn't say, "not all." i simply said, "and what kind of primitive is preoccupied with such trivialities?" (i wasn't as polite, but you get the gist)

a true king does not claim royal ancestry, he comports himself like a king. a primitive should be made to feel primitive first, the facts of history are relevant second.

and what kind of primitive is preoccupied with such trivialities

and tashie, if you do that in your "real" life, more power to you. i didn't mean to generalize based on one comment, but i have noticed a tendency for muslims and christians to claim brahmin ancestry* (generally in a offhand i-don't-care manner) to the point where you would wonder if most indians were brahmin at some point :-)

It was only when I visited these boards did I get that people care about this.

Yeah, same.

My question is, do most of you grow up with a knowledge of your caste, and/or discussions about it?

Not at all. I only asked about it this year because I was stunned that an Indian girl at uni asked me what mine was in the course of conversation. I only lived in India until I was 8 so I had caste-free times in India too :)

I know what some people mean, after reading this whole thread, about people mentioning that they're actually from a higher caste. I wouldn't have mentioned mine unless someone unaccurately said that all converts are lower castes, just because it's an historical error. Maybe the statistical relevance is small, but then it's about the same as the population ratio of desi's in the USA and people still think that's important.

I know that because of my religion and maybe even my complexion (desitude, do I get points for saying I'm darker-skinned and still hating colourism?) people think I'm lower caste but I've never even brought it up in 'public' until now.

I don't think that people's 'original status' should make their views on things less authentic. I have dark skin and hate the 'Fair and Lovely' complex but I also recently found out that my family were a higher caste ages ago so I'm not allowed to dislike the caste system, desitude? So does that mean it's okay for me to hate colourism but not the caste system because I'm obviously just showing off about some genetic random factor that mattered (literally) 200 years ago to my family, because I'm darker skinned I understand the pain of fellow dusky maidens of not looking like Aishwarya...

Get a grip. I don't care if a lower caste/upper caste/no caste person says they hate the caste system, because I think it sucks ass too.

in the context of this blog you have to be careful of what you say *shrug* color & caste matters. no one here is slyly implying that their ancestors were dalits.

Yeah, I realise that now looking at the comments of some people that they've grown up a lot more Indian than me, whereas I don't speak any Indian languages or know much history etc.

i didn't mean to generalize based on one comment, but i have noticed a tendency for muslims and christians to claim brahmin ancestry* (generally in a offhand i-don't-care manner) to the point where you would wonder if most indians were brahmin at some point :-)

And you're right, a lot of people do say that they were higher caste. Which is why I didn't believe what my parents said for ages because it sounds about as unlikely as an elephant jumping out of my ass and proposing to me in the next five seconds.

When I said what my original status was I was saying it in a 'How crazy is that, huh, that for once it's actually true but it's all so dumb' kinday way because I have honestly grown up without it ever being an issue, or with any Indians I know thinking I'm lower caste anyway and me not even knowing caste names or my own one until this year.

But I'm guessing that people on here have grown up with much more Indian contact than I have and also with a much greater awareness of caste, so it did look like one of those things when someone's showing off and trying to act cool at the same time. It was sincerely not meant that way, because to me even the fact that people commenting on here have grown up with so much more caste system exposure is kinda depressing.

tashie,

perhaps some of us need to be proactive and take a "pledge." the reality is that when

person x says they "this & that"
person y responds that "my community is even more this & that"

pretty soon the whole thread devolves into "only brahmins of blah blah blah preserve the true traditions of blah blah blah" vs "the brahmins of blah blah blah aren't real brahmins, while the khatris of blah blah blah are true aryans who preserve true blah blah blah...."

i don't know if i have left big hints on this blog of what my personal background is aside from being bangladeshi and "mixed" as i said before (i did a quick search but the SM search algorithm is pretty loose). someone could connect the dots pretty obviously. i have also made references to my trivial complexion differences from my brother, but i made that a relative assertion. so i'll take a pledge: i won't get all primitive, no way, no how. the only way people will know what color i am is by meeting me (the pic on my website is fake), the only way people will know of my familial background (whether it is fake or real, i don't know) is through personal communication. let's as many of us try and do this so that the comments don't always devolve into status-signally via trivial (color) differences or unearned ones (familial background).

(p.s. i reserve the right to talk about how blonde and leggy my gf is, glory that comes via personal attainment is all kosher :)

p.s. and i know for a fact that not everyone who talks about their brahmin ancestors or fair complexion is status signalling...but sweet seeds can bear poisonous fruit.

Kritic,
I got bombarded with proposals after I inherited a bit of property in India. Before that, I definitely was a mleccha. Got bombarded by ABD parents before that, though. They started with all of us in our teens - poor things - and saw their best-laid plans go awry.

Desitude,
I never notice grins on the faces of those with white partners; around other desis, they invariably look uncomfortable. Second: Most middle-class Indians, like white liberals on race, know the party line when it comes to caste - always say modern day casteism is wrong, and that caste was originally either/or a 1)division of labour 2) based on workers' guilds 3) based on merit. I haven't heard any middle-class educated Indians defending the existent caste system in India as a good thing.

Metric,
My parents were always conscious of caste - my father was always bashing his caste (he was a Commie when young), and my mother proud of our caste. It was still somewhat real to them. Partly, I think, because both my parents' immediate families suffered during the Bengal Partition, and struggled as the 'genteel poor' (a la Victorian lore), there was a clinging on their parts to the (un)reality of caste. Sort of like shabby Russian emigres working in menial jobs can talk about how many serfs their grandparents owned, or something.

You guys ever been in a mixed FOB-ABD gathering? The ABD men seem perfectly comfortable chatting up FOB women. FOB men are usually shunned by ABD women like they have the plague. This is the weirdest form of social behavior I have observed.

I occasionally call a brahmin over to help me honor the gods. little man don't look oppressive to me :) the social order in India is in transition; the link between birth and occupation has been shattered; yes, the high achieving brahmins are now your professors and project managers, but the modes of oppression in India need reassessment, its far more complex than the Marxist-inspired "evil brahmin" worldview. i suspect what really rankles people-- especially non Brahmin Hindus--is arrogance more than oppression.

anantha (#57):

From now on all kids shall have their father first name as their last name. In three generations when all the oldies die out caste is history.

Some of us already do that. Actually some of us down south, have been doing that for close to fifty years now.

Boy howdy! In my family my great-grandfather was the last one to bear a caste name, and my grandfather was born in 1913. That doesn't mean they've stopped observing the caste system, though...

Inter-caste marriage has to be one of the most important ways to dillute caste consciousness and begin the process of erradicating it altogether. That and a reservation policy based on socio-economic status and not purely on caste. To quote Jay Billington Bulworth:

All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color.

Yeah! Enough sexual repression! Let's get it on!

Oh yeah, and it might help to dump caste consciousness in the diaspora as well...

sorry, bad formatting:

anantha (#57):

From now on all kids shall have their father first name as their last name. In three generations when all the oldies die out caste is history.

Some of us already do that. Actually some of us down south, have been doing that for close to fifty years now.

hi. I am just trying to understand all this. I am in a brand new relationship with an Indian guy. About 3 months. Im american, white, and christian. He is from India, he has been here in the USA for 7 years. hes a Hindu and a Brahmin. Hes been throwing alot of culture-isms at me...and gave me a copy of the Gita to read... and Yes, I thought Brahim was like an old family name or something...until I googled it, and came upon this site and others. So now I am starting to feel a little uneasy. It all seems a little racist to me, and hes made a point to mention to me that "where [he] comes from, [he] is considered to be 'fair'", which just made me laugh, because well..I like a man with a little tan ;) ....Then another time he was taking me to meet his friend...who was "dusky" as he put it. I had no clue what the term meant. So he explained it to me...and well I was a little perplexed as to why he kept mentioning her skin tone. Yes, skin tone is something he mentions often, like I think Ive heard about my skin tone 1000x. Im very pale, too pale, I dont like it, he loves it, and is always mentioning it.

Anyway, I think he is a bit fetishistic about skin tone and ancestry...Im not sure, he seems too intelligent to be like this, but sometimes, I think my new boyfriend could be something of a racist. Not anything like the crazy ones..but in a subtle way, or maybe there is something in the culture I dont understand yet.

Sophie:

It is impossible to generalize the role caste plays in the mindset of a desi person, irrespective of whether they were born in India or not. There are highly educated people who still succumb (sp?) to the segregation of the caste system. Likewise, there are many who realize it is antiquated and irrelevant in the modern world. I would also like to point out, and I'm sure many readers know more about this subject than I, that caste is not necessarily a product of any original Hindu philosophy. Rather, it developed over a long period of time due to societal stigmas and pressures.

The point I am trying to make is that you should ask your boyfriend in direct terms about his feelings with respect to caste, tradition, religion, etc. If he his very conservative in his views, then there might be some troubles ahead. At the same time, don't let the fact that he grew up in India cloud your judgment. There are plenty of people from the motherland who view the caste system as it, in my humble opinion, should be viewed (as something antiquated and damaging to the society as a whole). I think a frank talk with your boyfriend should happen sooner rather than later.

vikatakavi

I was refering to the custom of murdering youth who rebelled against the caste divide.

sophie, you have very good reasons to be uneasy. "fetishistic about skin tone and ancestry" - the guy sounds like an insecure pighead. sorry for this, but woman, its gonna be a tough ride.

I think my new boyfriend could be something of a racist. Not anything like the crazy ones..but in a subtle way, or maybe there is something in the culture I dont understand yet.

Sophie: I think you understand the culture perfectly well. Go with your instincts. You seem like the type of person who sees intuitively, what it takes others a lifetime to realize.

Yes, skin tone is something he mentions often, like I think Ive heard about my skin tone 1000x. Im very pale, too pale, I dont like it, he loves it, and is always mentioning it.

This is the type of indian man, we will gladly let you have.

DJ DP

How can anyone not get the three billy goat gruff reference? I thought it was quite clever. I fondly remember that story as the first play i ever acted in. I was 5 and in kindergarten. I crawled in my hands and knees and played a goat.

Thanks, Taz. I also thought the reference was deserving of a gold-star-on-the-forehead (along with your breakout performance as a bakri) but alas, it seems that South Asians sadly grow up without any knowledge of goats. @=)

The four varnas (sometimes translated as "castes") are mentioned in the Gita wherein Bhagavan Sri Krishna declares that he is the creator of these four divisions of human labour and then the gunas (qualities) of each are listed systematically. However, it more or less ends there. Krishna does declare that the varnas arise from guna and karma (qualities and actions), no mention of janma (birth), but the argument is that certain gunas and karmas will be inherent in certain births and that is why that soul took birth in such a family.

Elsewhere in the Gita Krishna says that from "varna-sankara" or "mixing of varnas", degradation of society ensues. However, what exactly is meant by "varna-sankara" is not easily determined and various Gita commentators have slightly differing views.

It's interesting to note here though that in Sanskrit "varna" also means "color".

My understanding is that gotra is family lineage and varna is one's occupation. It seems that somewhere along the way, the two got merged.

Where does jati play into this? Is jati one's varna or one's family lineage?

Where does jati play into this? Is jati one's varna or one's family lineage?

I second that question. I've never understood the distinctions here.

1) The fourfold varna system has always been an ideal, and in reality never existed in large parts of India. For example, in South India, the Ksatriya and Vaishya is practically absent, though in modern times, some communities have claimed membership in both varnas. Some commentators believe varna can only be based on birth, and other claim that its based on qualities. The ancient literaure has examples of both types of arguments. In modern times, the push has been to make varna based on qualities, though sections of the orthodox are committed to the birth-based view (eg. Shankaracharyas). The government of India is siding with the quality view. Eg, it opened up the priesthood to non-Brahmins in a 2002 Supreme Court ruling.

2) Jatis are birth-based endogamous communities, eg. Punjabi Khatris, Jat Sikhs, Tamil Iyengars. Jatis exited before varna, and are not static. New jatis come into being all the time, and they rise and fall in the social hierarchy, which is based on locality.

3) Having a low ritual staus (varna) does not mean you have a low social status. Eg., Bengali Kayasthas are categorized by the orthodox as Shudras, but they are part of the "bhadralok."

madhurima,

I was refering to the custom of murdering youth who rebelled against the caste divide.

When did that happen??.. and in what scale?. I know even now we hear about such incidents in rural areas in newspapers.. But is it Ok to generalise based on a few incidents??..

For example, my family has a history of inter-caste marriages, I myself and my brothers have married outside caste and religion. And we are alive ( ... :-) ) and have never experienced any harassment from anyone in India... And a considerable number of my collegemates married outside caste though I would like a further higher percentage...

Also, I belong to a "low caste" and brown skinned..

Yes, I'd also like to know to what extent such murders are taking place. Inter-caste marriage is common in India. Maybe it's not the majority or even half of the marriages, but it is a big enough percentage to be considered common.

I've heard of people being cut-off from family inheritances for this, but I've never heard of any murders or such extreme measures.

What about the dissolution of culture?

Many people take cultural pride in their family lineages (gotras) and family occupations that were passed down through the milleniums. By obliterating that, culture and customs associated with those gotras or varnas may also be obliterated.

I am against caste-based discrimination, and against the sometimes big deal that is made out of inter-caste marriages, but what is wrong if one takes pride in one's family culture and continues the (positive) customs?

Sophie,

I can't think of one relationship I have where me and the other person meet eye to eye on all ideological issues.

You have to determine the extent of your differing viewpoints and if they are so great as to effect the emotions between you.

Sounds to me that he is a person who prefers light skin to dark. You are light skinned, so that works in your favor.

Try being in a position where he prefers your opposite skin tone but is with you as a "concession". That is a million times worse.

Caste is a division of society in India. Every society has it's divisions. I dare say that every human has her/his prejudices, whether they are vocal about them or not, or consciously aware of them or not.

Again you have to determine if these things are so important as to warrant a break up of an otherwise very loving union.

I'm in the same position myself but by the sound of it, my situation is much worse than yours, since I am not the coveted skin tone or race. I'm the "concession".

When the rest of the world is realizing the excesses and injustices of the caste system, would you believe that ISKCON (the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, otherwise known as "hare krishnas") has a branch that is working to implement it within the western world, amongst those not born into the hindu fold???

Several of the organization's websites detail this.

I just happened to find myself here. I too am dating a Bramin man, (and I'm a white whitey white Girl). He isn't hung up on color, but does get hung up on guilt. Because of guilt, he has to keep me a TOTAL secret. I understand that he respects his parents and doesn't want to hurt his ENTIRE family with this love, but what of our future?

I love him, he loves me and we want a future, but I fear he feels like he has to bear all of this responsability to his "culture" even if he is an AMERICAN now. He still is the only son. I don't envy him his "proper genitals" if it means he isn't supposed to love the person he loves.

I just happened to find myself here. I too am dating a Bramin man, (and I'm a white whitey white Girl). He isn't hung up on color, but does get hung up on guilt. Because of guilt, he has to keep me a TOTAL secret. I understand that he respects his parents and doesn't want to hurt his ENTIRE family with this love, but what of our future?

I love him, he loves me and we want a future, but I fear he feels like he has to bear all of this responsability to his "culture" even if he is an AMERICAN now. He still is the only son. I don't envy him his "proper genitals" if it means he isn't supposed to love the person he loves.

Chaos -

Been there, done that, got the salwar/kameez.

It will not work.

Insist that he introduce you to his family NOW. If they are not in the same country where you two are, insist to speak to them on the phone. If he refuses, save yourself a future heartbreak and move on.

Its a shame that some one has to offer money for marrying lower caste girl. It could have already been practiced by many Indians with their own interest by now. In a country where people have more superstitions and beliefs in swamijis, gurujis etc, I doubt this will work. There is still a stigma associated with those born to intercastes particularly if one of the parents are upper caste. This experiment might not work immediately but could make some difference in far future.

Are whites respected? I dont know, I'm not so sure actually. I spent a year in India, Some people respected me, but I was also called a Lal Bandar alot in the North (people assumed I didn't understand any Hindi). Of course there are lots of people in India, and they have a range of views. Many Indians like other cultures, and intermarriage is also possible nowadays I agree. But some also don't respect us and commonly use words like Lal Bandar for whites, and for other types of mlecchas they use Chinky and so on. In India being called a Lal Bandar was almost normal for someone like me-it was so common I almost thought it was my name! I got used to it but I could see that a lot of people are corroded by jealosy & envy in North India (not very good for their blood pressure or stomach acidity I suppose). I'm a vegetarian teatoataller and a Yoga teacher, but anyway, I'm also a Lal Bandar. What caste is a Lal Bandar like me supposed to be? Any ideas?