September 15, 2006
We Are Perfect (Thanks to Our Humility)Issues
Here we go again:
They have funny accents, occasionally dress in strange outfits, and some wear turbans and grow beards, yet Indians have been able to overcome stereotypes to become the U.S.’s most successful immigrant group.
Another season, another self-congratulatory article about desis as a model minority. At least this piece — by “BusinessWeek.com columnist and accomplished businessman” Vivek Wadhwa — drops the M-bomb from the outset. It’s titled “Are Indians the Model Immigrants?” and after the self-exoticizing intro (funny accents! strange outfits! turbans!), goes through the usual recital of achievements: median household income, hotel ownership, doctors and academics (sans supporting data), Indra Nooyi. All of which leads to this burning question:
Census data show that 81.8% of Indian immigrants arrived in the U.S. after 1980. They received no special treatment or support and faced the same discrimination and hardship that any immigrant group does. Yet, they learned to thrive in American society. Why are Indians such a model immigrant group?
I’ll let you read the article to find out the incredibly profound answers, which Wadhwa offers “in the absence of scientific research” (i.e., by pulling out of his butt) and “as an Indian immigrant” who has “had the chance to live the American dream.” You’ll learn, for instance, that such uniquely Indian traits as education, family values, humility, and “determination to overcome obstacles” account for the community’s great fortune. But let’s jump to Wadhwa’s 12th and final explanation:
12. Integration and acceptance. The Pew Global Attitudes Project, which conducts worldwide public opinion surveys, has shown that Indians predominantly hold favorable opinions of the U.S. When Indians immigrate to the U.S, they usually come to share the American dream and work hard to integrate.
Indians have achieved more overall business success in less time in the U.S. than any other recent immigrant group. They have shown what can be achieved by integrating themselves into U.S. society and taking advantage of all the opportunities the country offers.
Again, this last claim (more success in less time) is devoid of any supporting data, let alone its assumptions about the meaning of “success,” but hey, fuzzy math is only one of the characteristics of the “model minority” argument, which also trots out sociological traits that are somehow supposed to be specific to the group in question, and doggedly avoids any contrary evidence. But what makes the argument noxious isn’t so much the grab-my-nuts boosterism or even the total disregard for socio-economic difference within the community in question (dirty laundry for us to hash out in places like this blog), but the implied statements about other immigrant or ethnic groups, which, if they are not as “successful” as Indians are, must therefore be inherently lacking in the bootstraps department. After all, Indians “received no special treatment” and “faced the same discrimination and hardship that any immigrant group does,” yet “they learned to thrive in American society.”
Those who wish to engage these assertions on the issues might start with the fact that selective immigration policies aimed to brain-drain skilled professionals into the US is very much “special treatment” from the get-go. I’m sure that claim about Indians having faced the same discrimination as “any immigrant group” could use a little data-driven scrutiny too.
Still, Wadhwa has done us all a favor, by deploying the “model minority” argument in such candid fashion. We know these views are prevalent in some sections of the community; now we have a complete statement of the case and its underlying logic. You be the judge. All I can say is: Macaca, Please!
siddhartha on September 15, 2006 11:30 AM in Issues · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Macacas rule. There I had to get post #1.
-Russell Baker
Applies to some desis I know too :) ....
siddhartha, I saw this CSPAN thing with Bill Cosby, and an editor ? from the Washington Post and a bunch of other African American leaders in DC. They talked about what they could do as a community to improve things for young African American men, in particular - and they had two great kids talk who've made it out of rough neighborhoods talk about what allowed them to 'make it. They each had a strong parent as a role model and they each had a parent who stressed education. They were able to say no to a lot of nonsense because of this. It wasn't easy. Go back and look at that list: he starts with education, with family values and stresses community networks. Make fun all you want - it's a model that would work in any community. It's harder in some than in others, for sure. The deck was stacked in a good way for Indian immigration to the states. But don't pooh-pooh all of it.
If you stay in school, if you don't have kids when you can't afford them (monitarily or emotionally), if you have a strong community network and strong beliefs in yourself, you can accomplish a lot.
It's harder in some than in others, for sure. The deck was stacked in a good way for Indian immigration to the states. But don't pooh-pooh all of it.
I think a lot has to do with the type of Indian immigrants who come to the US. I am pretty sure if the desi construction industry diaspora was to be shipped over to North American, the results would be different.
Yeah, I thought the "humility" part was kind of ironic. His paper basically read, "Here are ten reasons why me and my peeps are better than everyone else. On top of all these wonderful qualities we have, we're humble about it." Really?
I meant if the desi construction industry diapora was shipped over to North American from the Gulf, the results will be different.
Having been born and raised here with 7-11 camel jockeys, and then apu, being pricipally iconic of Indian-Americans, I welcome the long overdue correction. Is it excessive? Yes. But imo, necessary.
MD, this notion that Black people care insufficiently about education, family and community gets on my very last nerve, whether it's coming from model-minority types or from the so-called African American leaders, who are a sorry bunch. Sorry to generalize, but if we are generalizing, white people in this country could learn a hell of a lot from black folks about family and community values. As for education, you give me a school funding system that delinks resources from property taxes and/or evens out resource allocation across metropolitan areas, and i'll give you a hell of a lot of educated Black people, not to mention Latinos and working-class whites. Some people are scared by that prospect, including the so-called leaders.
I think the Mexicans share the same family values, networking, sticking up for each other, community etc.
Also Mexico happens to have a per capita income almost 20 times than that of India. Still the Mexicans are not faring off too well. A lot of this has to do with the type of Mexicans who cross over the border and the type of Indians who fly over to the US. Some people have made the point that the Mexicans because of their large numbers dont have similar incentives to learn English etc. and hence their relative poverty. I dont really buy the argument because the Cubans in Miami are doing quite well with similar numbers. In the Mexican case, a lot has to do with the fresh supply of the most desperately poor labor coming in through the borders every day. Before the Clinton years, a lot of the migrant labor also could come in and then go back to Mexico after the season and that was a disincentive for the migrant labor to take a long term approach to living in the US.
"They have funny accents, occasionally dress in strange outfits, and some wear turbans and grow beards, yet Indians have been able to overcome stereotypes to become the U.S.s most successful immigrant group."
not being either gung-ho anti model minority or pro-model minority, i'll just say this: apparently, given the above line, some indians haven't been able to overcome stereotypes and, in a fit of insecurity and perhaps attempted humour, feel the need to reinforce them by trotting them out, thus showing others they have indeed assimilated and integrated by viewing themselves as others see them. sadly, i've had the misfortune to meet a couple of these types. although to be fair to the author, i think i understand what he's trying to say with that line, but it just rankles nonetheless.
Siddhartha, thanks for a great post.
and this i like even more than your original post:
Hear! Hear!
On a tangent: Didn't Survivor (Race Wars edition) air yesterday? Was it as insufferable as expected?
Also Mexico happens to have a per capita income almost 20 times than that of India.
Not true, its more like 3.3:1. 10,000 vs. 3100 (use purchasing power parity). Also about 50% of Mexico's wealth is controlled by the top 25 families.
It was another of those perfect northern California days. In Macacavale, right off Lawrence expressway and 101, Macaca-dad piled Macaca-kid in the child-seat and slammed the door of his 2001 Toyota Corolla DX. Don't be a naughty boy he drawled in a TNagar-meets-Dallas accent.
He then patiently waited for Macaca-mom and Macaca-wife to join him on their weekly trip to the Macaca grocery store. Damn what was taking them so long. As it is, he was irritated by the fact that the damn module wasn't compiling. The bugs were driving him crazy. Maybe it's time I stop coding and move on to program management he thought.
But those damn program management roles were so hard to come by these days. As it is, his job had been Bangalored three times already. Ah well he mused- at least I have a job. Just then Macaca-wife and Macaca-mom came out. "Saari huni we got held up" his wife intoned in her Cuddalore-meets-well-Cuddalore accent.
As the white Corolla DX headed down Lawrence expressway, they passed row upon row of Macaca houses. From near and afar came a cacophony of noises-Carnatic music playing, a SUN TV newscast, pressure cookers whistling. In his car, Macaca-dad adjusted his 80$ ray bans, turned up his power windows and turned on 101.3 K101 to drown out the noise.
When was the last time I interacted with a non-Macaca he wondered? I work in a Macaca body shopping company. I shop in a Macaca grocery store. I drive 15 miles to watch Macaca movies in Macaca theater in Macacamont. The 7-11 guy and the gas station attendant are Macaca. My neighbors are Macaca. Even my son's classmates are all Macacas.
They were able to say no to a lot of nonsense because of this. It wasn't easy. Go back and look at that list: he starts with education, with family values and stresses community networks. Make fun all you want - it's a model that would work in any community
Thats bull shit. The problem with American education has as much to do with the way the funding is set up for public schools as it has to do with self-blame. Have you seen the resources the urban schools operate on? I am surprised that anyone can graduate from those schools. The State/Federal government need to maintain some parity in public schools across the nation. The poor will not have a half ass decent chance at success if the schools as long as the schools are funded by area property taxes.
"As for education, you give me a school funding system that delinks resources from property taxes and/or evens out resource allocation across metropolitan areas, and i'll give you a hell of a lot of educated Black people, not to mention Latinos and working-class whites. Some people are scared by that prospect, including the so-called leaders."
Amen! Education, community networks etc - We'd all like to believe these are all you need. But when you aren't getting an equal access to education, funding, loans, housing etc, you don't even begin to acknowledge basic needs. History is what separates the plight of a black person versus the plight of an immigrant. I know that alot of people will say, "but now things are different" blah blah - well, it's not that simple. Please don't use the Indian community, or any other community as a model of what the African American community should be. We would love to believe that if you "work hard" you can do anything - but the truth is, you get ALOT OF HELP from people along the way, whether it be your parents, or people of the same background who interviewed you for your first job, or someone in your community who gave you a good reference. And, let's face it, African Americans are outed from these beneficial social networks more often than not. That's not saying that immigrants are "in" - our parents had their fair share of grief and discrimination. The reasons they "prevailed" are more complex than this "humble" story.
I had a philosophy T.A. who tried to convince our group that if Jewish people prevailed in light of everything else, so should african americans. I didn't have the ammunition to argue with him at the time - I was ignorant - but something didn't sit right with me and I sought out information to better educate myself. He was a bigot - I can't believe he was a T.A.
Siddhartha, very well struck. Respect!
Some people who taste a little success tend to completely forget their solidarity with those whose conditions they share. Because, let's face it, all this talk of "discrimination and hardship" and "no special treatment" is a pointed reference to African-Americans (and, to a lesser extent Latino Americans). "I worked hard, why can't they?" This is the mentality that leads a lot of desis to make lower taxes their political priority. This is why a recently Americanized desi will get up and support George Allen.
The very idea of "model minority" implies that there's a right way and a wrong way to being a minority. Self-congratulation by those who're doing it right, sneers at those minorities who are perceived to be doing it wrong.
That's why a recent commenter could ask you, Siddhartha, what the hell you are doing living in Harlem. What the hell are you doing in Harlem? The shared history of enforced migration, or indentured labor, of Satyagraha, what's all that to you?
What our "model minority" brothers and sisters see is that they have "taken advantage of all America has to offer," and if history and societal structure make it impossible for others to be the same, sucks to be them.
That solidarity with those that suffer, the very solidarity that gave India the moral high ground against the British, has it made it over with Indian immigrants to the US? No doubt, yes. In some cases. But just what does the modern day Mutiny consist of? Lower taxes? Admission to medical school?
The work for social justice that many desis are doing in the US is being undone by others. Divide and rule is still in full effect.
Not true, its more like 3.3:1. 10,000 vs. 3100 (use purchasing power parity).
I stand corrected. I took the Mexican $10,000 based on PPP and India's $500 at face value, so the 20:1. How much is India's per capita income at PPT?
"The work for social justice that many desis are doing in the US is being undone by others. Divide and rule is still in full effect."
This is very f'n frustrating. My sister puts long hours into social justice research and presentation. One young man, of a visible minority background came out and said, "I attend X school, and I feel there was no discrimination". This is all it took to negate my sister (and her coalition's) statiscially valid research. One, ignorant statement by someone who did not look into the facts, numbers, details, history of the matter. Let me assure you, the administration applauded him for his "brave admission" and he felt great about it.
Of course they care, siddhartha, when did I say they did not? Calm down and think rationally about what I am saying. Are you saying that everything is hunky dory in all communities? That there are communities we shouldn't care about? I wasn't talking about an expensive African American upper middle class Atlanta community with mansions on every block and trust-funds and demographics that make desis look poor. I was talking about a poor DC community. Sheesh. You know, I could actually just give a shit about communities that are struggling.
Vouchers, I say. Vouchers. Why shouldn't parent's have a choice? The evidence that African American parents care is the overwhelming support for vouchers.
One of my best friends in Chicago is a teacher in a public school: the teachers can barely read, the superintendent has embezzled in the past and still can't get fired and lives up north in a ritzy suburb and the kids go home to lousy family dynamics and walk through neighborhoods infested with crime. We are failing these kids and I don't want to waste another generation because we can't manage to get public education right after how much money and how many years? DC spends a lot of money - it's just thrown down the crapper into badly managed public schools.
Elements of this have been mentioned before (in the EPIC THREAD), such as when I summarized Vijay Prasad's take on the model minority myth -- namely, the way that it's deployed by the media against African-Americans. Wadhwa plays into that.
Very good points, metric. In addition, I'd add that the mass slavery of blacks in America is a uniquely appalling historical event. It's hardly surprising that a mere sixty years after full legal equality, things aren't quite sweet and rosy.
In the early nineteenth century, one in every five people in New York City was African-American. And they were all slaves. In other words, they were treated exactly like farm animals, and had been for several hundred years.
Those of us whose parents were not born in the US can hardly begin to understand what that means in terms of damage to the psyche. There's your humility.
Vouchers, I say. Vouchers. Why shouldn't parent's have a choice? The evidence that African American parents care is the overwhelming support for vouchers.
Because vouchers are only a choice for the affluent. Also the vouchers will mean that the relatively affluent kids will leave the schools as part of their private school tuition would be funded by the voucher pay back. The vouchers dont cover the whole cost of tuition in private schools, so only those kids will leave public schools who can afford to pony out the additional amount to make up the difference between the vouchers and the private school tuition. This leaves the pubic school now with even poorer kids and fewer resources. How will this help the public school system? Also most private schools where vouchers can be used are of religious denomination (up to 98%). So the choice in practical terms is only limited to religious Christian, Jewish and Islamic schools.
MD, I didn't say that you said that they don't care. I said that the argument espoused by the Cosbys of the world includes the notion that African Americans today care insufficiently about education, family, community. It's very much a moral argument, even if it also acknowledges economics. You are referring to those arguments approvingly, and you yourself go on to say:
so it seems fair to say that you are least partially endorse the argument, no? As for rich black folks in Atlanta suburbs, no, I wasn't talking about them either, and I don't know where you got that I was. I'm taling about the 'hood, you're talking about the 'hood. We just clearly have very different diagnoses of the problem, and different solutions to offer. Finally, when you say:
I simply don't understand what you are talking about. Care to clarify?
As for strong community networks, that is what I am saying! Indians get a lot of help from extended family. That's just what I'm saying. What's so controversial about that? It is totally different being African American, I don't for a second believe you don't get discriminated against, but what the hell is wrong with stressing certain basic facts? That isn't pitting anyone against anyone. Those two kids, regardless of their color, got out of a tough spot because of good parenting and paying attention to education. They didn't go to voucher schools. They were in a rough neighborhood. Why can't we look to their experience? Why negate it?
siddhartha, I'm too busy to make a decent comment. Let me put it this way: I care very much about poor children who are failed by their families, their communities, their society and their government. WE may have different solutions to the problem, but I care very much. You know I've seen those kids (or adult versions) autopsied okay? THe one I remember the most at the Cook County morgue was of a young man who killed himself in jail. His personal notes were all about how his mother wanted to abort him, how he never felt any love, how he could never get a break. That breaks my damn heart.
Tangentially: Siddhartha, I actually agree with Cosby's argument. When your house is on fire, it's a bad time to start arguing about whether it was arson or accidental. I don't think he (of all people) misunderstands the enormity of the past, and its bearing on the present. What he's saying is that, the house is burning and help is not forthcoming from without. Painful stuff, but it needs to be out there. I'm not feeling Dyson at all.
OK, back to desis.
What a load of macaca crap. It never ceases to amaze me how Indians insist on perpetuating this model minority nonsense. When you start out with one billion people, and take out a small group of the brightest (the most educated) and others who may be less educated, but are nonetheless risktakers by virture of wanting to immigrate to a new place, you will end up with a successful group.
BTW, I wonder if that Montreal nutjob who shot up all those people is in our model minority.
Is it just me or do many of MD's arguments end with the topic of autopsies? :)
Indians get a lot of help from extended family. That's just what I'm saying. What's so controversial about that? It is totally different being African American
Because Indians come from a country where the state cannot provide anything period. In Western Industrialized democracies, assimilated people over time will usually stop relying on families because there is no need for that.
"Those two kids, regardless of their color, got out of a tough spot because of good parenting and paying attention to education. They didn't go to voucher schools. They were in a rough neighborhood. "
The few individuals who "prevaill" or "get out" are exceptions - while inspirational, these kinds of stories are excuses to keep things the way the are, rather than giving kids in these rough neighbourhoods equal opportunity as a kid in a rich, white neighbourhood. We can expect everyone to be exceptional! Not everyone can be, by way of genetics and other factors. There are limited resources to these communities, that is impossible for only a small handful of kids to even get to prove they are exceptional. And I would even venture that alot of exceptional, talented, gifted kids aren't making it because of a lack of resources.
Yet, we accept a kid who grew up in a safe white, high class neighbourhood who "succeeds" inspite of a lack of any kind of exceptional qualities - and we'll say he's GREAT and so hardworking to boot.
What are you talking about? Who is negating their experience? Where have I written that good parenting and education aren't good things? Of course they are good things! My point is that there is a very prevalent argument out there that poor people, especially poor black people, are somehow lacking in those qualities. It's a noxious argument that sets up a lot of bad public policy. Whether I hear it from Bill Cosby, Louis Farrakhan, Vivek Wadhwa or yourself is immaterial. I think that all those people are severely underestimating the effect on poor communities of disinvestment in public education (among other factors. The "War on drugs" and revoving door prison system doesn't help either.). It's an honest disagreement, so there's no need for you to "sheesh" me or insinuate that I don't think you care about the disadvantaged. Rather condescending of you, actually.
When you throw more money at education, everything gets fixed. Its as simple as that. 8 year olds need a laptop computer and those poorer sections of society where 8 yr olds cant afford laptops are going to stay behind. Its simple. Mo' money Less problem !!!
When you throw more money at education, everything gets fixed. Its as simple as that. 8 year olds need a laptop computer and those poorer sections of society where 8 yr olds cant afford laptops are going to stay behind. Its simple. Mo' money Less problem !!!
Have you ever been to a poorly funded school?
Kobayashi, that's the part I am cool with too. It's the moral grounding of that strategic observation that is potentially problematic. Knowing whether it's arson or accident IS important, especially if one wants to prevent the fire from recurring.
Re: help not forthcoming from without, it's clear that anyone waiting for government assistance in this country now is barking up the wrong tree, unless they're rich. Self-reliance hasn't been this urgent in a long time. A lot of us need to learn how to do more with less.
Damn, brown folk of the subcontinent got no street cred.
I have a dream, that one day, just like every other minority of the United States, desis will earn street cred. Whether it be the hipster alternative lifestyle folks or ghettos and their gangs. Only way to forge a united front is to ensure we earn respect where it counts, on the streets of LA, Chicago, DC, and NYC!
Some brothas and sistas are fighting the good fight, but there isn't enough of them, yet.
I plan on changing that. We will pursue a policy of crack, crime, samosas, and real gangs (none of the wannabe Devon Boyz shit from Chicago).
GD, Latin Kings, Bloods, Crips are all on notice for the new power that will rule the streets - Macacas. Our sign will be holding our hands up high, slightly bent at the elbow, while flashing the padma kunjara then moving the arms mid mody and flashing the shankha varta.
i have no time...but represent MD. i'll be back tonight >8-)
At the same time, please dont forget US spends several times more on education per student compared to other developed nation and still dont have a whole lot to show for the spending.
yeah, this is the land of the illiterates (roll eyes).
Some poor people are lacking in those qualities you mentioned and it does contribute to poverty, but it's a chicken and egg thing. It's not wrong to state that certain actions will serve you better in life. Whether you have chance to take that better action partly depends on your circumstances, but when you have a choice, make a better one.
Autopsies are kind of grim, so it stays with you....I can't help bringing it up. It's something I wish I hadn't seen. I really wish I hadn't. Sorry guys for being repetitive.
Siddhartha, you were the one who started this with the whole scolding nature of your first comment after mine: as if I said that Black communities et al don't care about families or education! I never said that. I brought up a specific example of a specific community and you set me off. It sounded like you were making an accusation about my motives. I'm sorry if I was wrong.
I never said that this is the land of illeterates. I am talking about comparison with other developed nations. India/SA countries dont even come close to US education level.
I agree. Also, my impression is that many of the people in the 'risktakers', the second group, already have a fairly secure net in place thanks to their extended family, so there is some close relative already in the US, who is willing to sponsor them and can guarantee them a job once they are here.
Also, the people in the 'bright' group are usually not only educated, but also come from relatively privileged backgrounds in India. This is specially true in recent years, because scholarships have been harder to come by(at least before you land in the US). So you need to prove you have a truely obscene amount of money(in Indian rupee terms), say $50,000, in your bank account in India, to show you could afford to pay the tuitions and living expenses.
I agree with a lot of what Siddartha said, but I feel I should throw this in:
I went to a failing public school in a city in Michigan, which basically has the worst economy in the country. Our school was 35% minorities, and only 20-25% went to college after school. And that's after about 40% dropped out. Like most of my classmates, I was more interested in getting high and skipping class then studying. But I managed to graduate and get into a good school in spite of my criminal tendencies. The reason? My desi parents were constantly riding my ass.
Like most good liberals, I attributed this success to my privileged Socio-economic status in comparison to my peers. But the fact of the matter is, even the desi kids whose parents ran gas stations and doughnut shops did better in school than the white children of professionals. There's simply no denying that Asian-Americans in general have a much greater focus on education. I started to wonder why, other than the generic cultural reasoning, so during my year off from college I returned to my school as a teacher.
It was even worse than when I left; the students, whether white, black or brown were all largely apathetic. The reason schools fail in America is very simple: bad teachers and bad parents. These are inherently unrelated to race. But highly educated parents (like the majority of desi immigrants) tend to be focused on education themselves. As for teaching, most inner city public schools lack good teachers. Guess what the first criteria is for most desis when deciding where to live? the schools. Still, I noticed that even among the felons I was tasked with educating, it was the one or two desi kids (not rich, usually very middle class or lower) who really studied. Because they knew their parents would whoop their asses if they didn't get As.
The solution is simple: every race should start whoopin' more teenage ass. I had extremely liberal parents, but if I had failed to get into college they would have probably castrated me. This was not the case for my white and black friends, even some of whom were my parents' colleagues. I don't think it's a racial issue, but culturally, Asian cultures just seem to hold education in higher esteem than Western societies. Notice how the Ivy Leagues are so full of Asians and Jews; does anyone really believe they are genetically smarter? It's not all politics (though politics is a big reason African-American students are denied access to education). Whatever the cause, the solution is to change the prevailing attitude that doing well in school isn't "cool" or makes you a "nerd". I know even I held that view, and most Indian kids I know believe the opposite.
As a former teacher and a daughter of a current teacher, I need to make a few points:
1. It's not always about the quality of the school or how much tax dollars are pumped into the school. I used to teach in the east suburbs of LA, which has high concentrations of newly-immigrated, lower-middle class Latinos and East Asians. Both groups of kids come from the same income groups, and their parents have the same education levels. Guess which group of kids always outperforms the other?
2. That being said, however, the parent and teacher expectations of these kids tragically vary between groups. For example, the parent of E. Asian child that does not speak any English will demand that their kid is put in English-only classes. These kids almost always learn English within a year. Unfortunately, non-english speaking Latino kids are often put in bilingual classes, where they're often treated like special education students, and their English skills end up severely lagging those of their peers for several years later. It's really sad, but this is why I'm fervently against bilingual education. Either it needs serious investment and reform or we should just engage in English-only instruction.
Notice how the Ivy Leagues are so full of Asians and Jews; does anyone really believe they are genetically smarter?
Plenty do. Even mainstream academics, like Harvard's Steven Pinker, who no one categorizes as a Neo-Darwinian racist, are open to this viewpoint as a measure of man, as unpalatable as it obviously is.
The goalposts are shifting.
Mr. Wadhwa is smoking the same myth-making crack that so many desis in the U.S. are addicted to. The Siddhartha / Kobayashi tag team succinctly dissected this both in the post and comments 8 & 16 (you two need your own Leander Paes / Mahesh Bhupathi style center court chest slam thing). I'm just adding my two paisa by suggesting that desi immigrant "success" also has a lot to do with an unabashed love of "prosperity".
Model minority? Word?!? Brutha, we are practical materialists! Failure will not well tolerated! There are no second chances! Get your kundi to medical school or you'll end up patrolling the hood as as a subzhiwallah, ya heard?! Between the kind of social sanction that Hinduism gives to the pursuit of wealth and the generations upon generations who have endured a continual scarcity of the most basic necessities, the greed + fear combination is a pretty strong motivator.
You can dress it up in prettier ways, but greed + fear are a major component of our "success".
Add to that the stranglehold of hierarcy that is all too familiar to those who have grown up on the subcontinent and it makes folks pretty astute about figuring out who is lowest on the totem pole in any given society. And pretty quick to dissociate from them.
Then, when melanin puts you in the same part of the rainbow as whoever you perceive to be lowest, you'll do krazy things, like prostrate yourself to George Allen types. (It doesn't hurt that he belongs to a party that has an elephant as it's mascot. I mean, who can resist a political party that gives props to both Lakshmi AND Ganesh?)
This is a great time to plug my favorite TV show The Wire on HBO, which would be of profound interest to people like Siddartha and others on this board. This season especially is about Baltimore's public schools and the challenges these kids face despite being smart and even motivated. For anyone who hasn't been to an inner city school and wants to know what it's like, or simply enjoys great writing and acting, check it out on Sunday night at 10pm on HBO or watch it On Demand.
Excellent post Kavita. Greed is good.
I see quite a few resumes and any desi with 5 years US experience want 6 figures, and many get it. Most are not the cream of the crop from India, nor from highly connected families. Some incompetent ones are riding the 'desis are smart' bandwagon and getting more than their worth, but that is the American way; more power to them.
Bidismoker (Gautham): Why did your parents let you go to such a bad school?
Because it started to deteriorate while my sister was in school, and because the only other options were boarding school or a Catholic school, and my parents were not about to send me away at 14 or into the den of the enemy to be converted.
Also, while I don't want to seem like I'm diminishing the challenges faced by inner city residents and minorities, back in India my dad was very poor and grew up without a father. He lived in one room most of his life and didn't even have money to pay his school fees. He still managed to become a doctor through sheer hard work. He often says that people in the projects, trailer parks and on welfare here in America have it so good that they don't feel the need to work. I argue with him about it, but in fairness, his upbringing was even tougher than most of these innercity kids we are referring to.
This wont last forever. We are 1st generation Americans for the most part and have no choice but to study because people dont travel to the other side of the planet to play with a ball and after we start popping out 2nd and 3rd and 4th generation Indian American's, Indian's will have just as many fuc# up's as everyone else.
The Wire rocks.
I say, have a voucher system for public schools. The school gets $x per student that chooses to attend there. Fewer students, fewer $$s. Tie school administrator's pay to a broad spectrum of goals - including student graduation rates, college enrollment etc. We have got to get a little Darwinian with our schools.
I agree with the Greed+Fear thesis. Lets get rid of social security.
Another thing is that, it's not like all a Indian has to do is hop over the boarder and he's in the USA. Indian's for the most part have to go through the lengthy process of seeking approval from the government before they can move here and who gets selected? For the most part it is people who hold advance degree's in engineering and medicine. These people might not always go into that field, they might for example open a gas station or something. For a person to pick up and move to the other side of the world, they have to be motivated and thus alot of Indian's are living the "American Dream."
If India was where Mexico is then there would be a whole lot of poor Indian's living in the USA too.
Claiming the immigrants' burden ain't so heavy is just as abominable as the "pull yourself up from your bootstraps" argument. Both groups used as rhetorical puppets.
I went to a poorly funded (70-80% "minority") urban school till we moved and then attended a richly funded public school that wasted my parents' property taxes on athletic fields and non-essential personnel. Fairly reasonable and comparable educations in both. School funding reaches a ceiling where you get commensurate gains and that ceiling is reached pretty quickly.
A good education ain't such a complex formula: good teachers, rigor and discipline.
The harder question is how to get Johnny to pay attention/not fall asleep/not talk back when he spent the nite watching his mom get smacked by her boyfriend and trying to care of his little sisters by his damn self...speaking of rhetorical puppets!
sid, stop drinking the Haterade. Evrything is fine.
Bidismoker,
I have to agree with your Dad. I am FOB and grew up in India. It is true that the "poor" here have it so good that they have no idea what is being poor like a really poor person in India. I am trying to be a know-it-all, but its hard for anyone who goes on short visits to India to really see the level of poverty (and also the inspiring stories of people who overcome odds).
If you get a chance read the story of Sarathbabu whose grew up in the slums (literally the slums) and went on to get an MBA from India's top management school and now running a successful business.
in comment #57 I should have said "I am NOT trying to be a know-it-all...."
word, word, double word, triple word and quadruple word! the wire is the absolute pinnacle of television right now. it's entering its fourth season. the three earlier ones are all classic, and 1 and 2 are available on DVD. don't sleep!!!!!
bidismoker, i haven't yet caught last sunday's episode... was out of town w/ no hbo... i need to catch up before this sunday.
re: the bigger discussion on schools -- these are some huge questions and one thing is for sure, the old orthodoxies are outdated, whether they are those of the left or the right. i think some measure of school choice is necessary given the state of things; i also think this should not be a fig-leaf to justify avoiding the massive infrastructure investment and revalorization of the teachng profession that are both needed. i appreciate the testimonials of the teachers here; y'all are on the front lines, maximum respect.
RC
I agree with my Dad also. The point I always try to make to him is that lower-class minorities in general and African-Americans in particular have specific socio-political constructs that prevent them from advancing apart from some remarkable cases of self-improvement. My Dad didn't have money, but he did have an educated mother and grandmother whose only hope for him was to see him educated, even though they couldn't really afford his fees. Still, they made it work somehow. My time as a teacher taught me that if a kid's parents don't care how he does in school, there is nearly no way to convince them it's important. Nothing can substitute for parental love and guidance, not even material wealth. If Indians have something to be proud of, it's how important family is to our culture. Even the servants in our house in Chennai have aspirations of sending their children to college.
Siddartha-
The last episode was dank. I know there isn't much of a desi angle to the story, but I'd love to write a post for SM on the Wire just because it's such a great show that everyone should watch and no one does. It should be required viewing for all Americans in the suburbs.
Bidismoker:
I TiVo and watch it religiously. It is, in my opinion, the best show on TV. I lived in Baltimore for a year, and they've captured the feel of that city to perfection. It's gritty and raw without being forced or unbelievable, and the stories are really powerful.
I kind of wish for a desi angle on it, too.
This may be somewhat off-topic but I'm curious if the "most successful ethnic group" statistic includes Caucasians, or just non-whites. Does anyone know?
This may be somewhat off-topic but I'm curious if the "most successful ethnic group" statistic includes Caucasians, or just non-whites. Does anyone know?
yes to the first.
This might be long...
We don't care enough about some of these things. Or at least, we don't care about them in the right way. I'm not foolish enough to say that black people bring all these things on ourselves, but there is a particular absence of personal responsibility in my community. I think that was Cosby's essential point (to which I agree) despite poor delivery.
These people are not always "exceptional" and I know this because I am one of them. And I meet students like me regularly. I came from an inner city neighborhood. My high school had metal detectors and was right in the middle of the hood. But it also had great programs that not enough black students took advantage of. All my APs and IB credits were paid for. Students of all races (and economic status) came to our little school in the ghetto to take advantage of our programs. I was, and in many ways, still am quite poor. I am not a genius... and I am quite unremarkable (though, I think most of my ivy-league peers are unremarkable [read:normal]as well). I don't really know how to explain it, but we aren't splitting atoms here (well, maybe some of us). I just hate to be thought of as some genetically superior super negro. Other black people can do this too. To say they can't just cuts off hope from the very beginning.
Actually, I'm going to break my responses up...
I need to expand on this... and this is, of course, my opinion.
Black people care about education. But we expect others to do the educating for us. There are a lot of black parents who will blame the school for something, but won't join the school's PTA. Or, when their child comes home, they don't nuture their children's intellect... because that's something for the school to do. Moreover, a lot of these parents do not properly dicipline their children anymore, so when they get to school teachers are too busy trying to shut kids the hell up than teaching. I love the feeling of being in a predominantly black class, but when I started going to classes with mostly white kids in the burbs, I noticed a distinct difference in the way classes ran.
Cultural note: Black kids are a lot more active in their learning on the middle and high school level. If the teacher engaged us, we were highly responsive and gave a LOT of comments... which doesnt bode well for covering lots of material. Sometimes, we really just needed to shut up. I think the pred. white classes I've been in are a bit too sterile, but when it came time for AP exams, all the material had been covered.
Family is important, so I'm not even going to provide a counter arguement for that. I had never heard of black people disowning their children in real life until I'd heard about Alan Keyes.
Community. Black people will rally over something really quickly. But the staying power you need to actually make changes isn't there. A lot black people will not support even those black businesses that are well run... we have a sense of community, but as a group, we have lost our way.
I would say that there is a difference in how education is seen not just between Indian-Americans and Black- and Latin-Americans but Americans as a whole. And as someone said earlier, we may see the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generations start to slack off as their families become more "Americanized".
There is no denying the fact that money plays a very important role in an immigrant's social assimilation.
Most of the people who come from India can be broadly classified into two categories.
- Educated, holding advanced degrees (or an intention to pursue grad studies and then 'settle down' in US).
- Not highly educated (high school)..they usually end up working at gas stations, driving cabs etc.
The first group has absolutely no idea about the hardships that are usually faced by the people in the 2nd group.
We (the 1st grp) pursue our advanced degrees, get high paying jobs, move into suburbs, raise our kids..and have enough money to pay for their kids' college tuition etc. Once we are "succesful", we start this whole "model minority" chest thumping and start comparing ourselves to other immigrant groups. One thing that we usually overlook is the plight of the 2nd group..those who started in this country with petty hourly wages, difficult working conditions, long and titring hours etc.
When we compare our "model minortiy" with Mexicans, South Amercians etc, we should also take into account this 2nd group.
"Education" is the only reason why this 1st group is "sucessful". Parents in India lay great emphasis on education..'cos they don't want their kids to grow up and do low-paying jobs. Back in India, our housemaid (who was uneducated) sent her kid to an English medium school becuase she wanted him to succeed in life.
From Wadhwa's article:
3. Hard work. With India's competitive and rote-based education system, children are forced to spend the majority of their time on their schooling. For better or for worse, it's work, work, and more work for anyone with access to education.
Does anyone else find this profoundly depressing? Only three professions are acceptable, and children spend their childhoods in a rote-based learning system that means 'work, work and more work'. Emphasis on education is great, but this sounds almost like child abuse and a recipe for psychological dysfunction. If he is advertising Indians as a model minority, he is not doing a great job.
Unfortunately, its true; the Indian education system sucks quite a bit. But is this true for the 2nd gen'ers too? Are there professions that are socially acceptable, and others that are not? Some insight would help this FOB.
I agree with your entire post... There was a quantitative study done recently on what it would cost a black student if they were associated with "acting white." It has its flaws, but its interesting to see how much culture and society affects black students.
Very true. The hardest thing for me was dealing with the large number of teachers who would tell me I wasn't suited for their classes. That I couldn't handle the work, and maybe I should drop some of my APs. Oh, and my counselor who basically asked me why I would ever think of applying to some of the schools I did. But this didn't happen in the city. This happened in the burbs. This is why I'm an advocate of making black people more accountable to their own actions... instead of this "lets help the savages who cant help themselves" view that seems to be so popular on the liberal side.
I've noticed this... and while I think some degree of fear is reasonable, I LOVE the fact that love in my family is completely unconditional. I'd have to do something absolutely crazy to get ousted from my family... and even then, my family would probably just tell me they'll send me their prayers while they ship me to a mental hospital...
As for my ancestors. I feel its a slap in the face to the people who came before me to act like black people have it worse now than they did back in the day. A lot of the problems that black people have are psychological residuals from slavery and from laws that made things impossible... and the problems need to be treated that way. We have a collective lack of self esteem.
These types of discussions are extremely fuzzy. I think the statistics would show that, as as group, Nigerians have comparably high earnings, educational status, etc. as South Asians. Does that mean that Sub-Saharan blacks oinnately are more intelligent than other human populations? Hardly. Rather, the high earnings of Nigerian immigrants, who almost invariably arrive in the U.S. with advanced degrees, leads credence to the weight of "brain drain" immigration policies. In other words, highly educated immigrants from all over the Third World were favored by U.S. immigration policy. Genetics or socioligical characteristics have little or nothing to do with the matter.
As a sidenote, it seems that certain countries such as Nigeria and India have failed miserably at retaining it's highest achievers, where as Latin American countries have largely been successfull at retaining its professional middle class. The dearth of Mexican-born doctors, lawyers, dentists, architects and other types of professionals in the United States is telling. Middle class Mexicans by and large do not emigrate. In Mexico, in fact, there is a certain stigma attached to emigration, as it is viewed as the last option of the uneducated and underemployed. Interestly, in many Third World countries, it is quite the opposite, people who leave India, Nigeria, etc. for the U.S. are viewed as the "cream of the crop." Fascinating
One-up;
Thanks for the link. I knew about the negative connotations with "acting white", but I did not know there was an actual study.
"You can dress it up in prettier ways, but greed + fear are a major component of our "success".
"I've noticed this... and while I think some degree of fear is reasonable, I LOVE the fact that love in my family is completely unconditional. I'd have to do something absolutely crazy to get ousted from my family... and even then, my family would probably just tell me they'll send me their prayers while they ship me to a mental hospital..."
I hear you there. I can't say it's universal trait, but desi parents have very high expectations. This can be a good thing or a bad thing - and it all comes down to the mental stability (how good of a role model) each individual parent is. A shitty parent with high expectations - that just sets a kid up for failure. A great role model/parent on the other hand, with high expectations - great results. I think this can be said for any culture, though really. If you've got a parent that expects you to get straight A's without any investment on their part; whether it be tutoring, lectures on self-esteem, driving you around the city to get to the library that has the one book you need, or to those soccer practises - that's just crazy. Education and success requires a big investment on the part of the parents. I've seen desi parents who don't put this investment in, and still expect straight A's, because Patel's kids got a scholarship or whatever, but don't realize that they're a part of the equation. So, I do agree, that parenting is probably linked to the success of the kids.
I'm from and grew up in the bmore area. wish i had hbo. so how could they work in a desi angle?
oneup - it's great to hear your experiences.
brown fob - one interesting wrinkle is that the 2nd group is sometimes related to the first: the first sponsors the 2nd (sponsors relatives) and gives them a leg up. Anyone else come from an anchoring family that sponsored relatives and kept those relatives and paid for their education, food, etc, 'till they got settled? I'm surprised that hasn't come up at SM before. Sometimes the 2nd group doesn't understand how hard it is to be the first anchoring group, education and all.
Can I add my two cents?...
I agree with a lot of the comments that parental involvement is the biggest part of a childs educational success, that part being mostly fear. Being from a west indian family (caribbean), for me it was never a choice of was I gonna go to college or not, it was more which college/univeristy am I gonna go to, and I went to one of the worst high schools in brooklyn. Like oneup we had metal detectors, and we also had daily fights, some of which I was involved in, but through all that I managed to take advantage of all the classes and double discovery programs through columbia and nyu that my school offered. Because my mum stayed on my ass and she had a personal relationship with my guidance counselor regarding my progress and what I could do to imporve, I also benefited from the wonderful teachers that I happened to have, I know a lot of inner city kids aren't lucky enough to have teachers that care, case in point my boyfriend, and he's jewish, he just happened to go to a school that was predominantly black where no one gave a crap.
I don't know if I agree too much with the notion that as soon as 3rd and 4th gens start popping out they will adopt the kind of apathy towards education that most american children seem to have. A significant part of my family has been in the US for a few generations and the children are still ridden as hard as we were growing up, like me and my sibs, my little cousins can honestly say that they go to school year round, it's summer school in the summer and private lessons after class for whatever subject they're lacking in.
I think though that like indians, west indians don't want to be put in the same category as african americans, ok so I know this for a fact. A lot of west indians view african americans to be lazy and don't want to be seen as the same and will tell you at every opportunity that they are jamaican etc. I even know children whose grandparents are from the caribbean, who will tell someone they are jamaican, guyanese, trini etc even though both they and their parents where born in the us. And even though a lot of west indians are the same colour as african americans, they absolutely cringe at the idea of their child bringing home an african american boyfriend or girlfriend. IMO I think that is the biggest reason that west indian parents drive their kids so hard at educational pursuits, to them education equals opportunities for material gain as well as status, they think (mistakenly) that if they can elevate themselves enough, no one can mistake them for their african american counterparts.
You said it, bro! Who gives a s*** about community networks and education. We need a serious dose of badassness.
And it looks like that's your downfall Siddartha, at least in the case of the 'Let's Give Them Vouchers Dammit I'm A Professional And Don't Want My Taxes Going to Lazy Ass Black People' contingent.
I find it so depressing that people will unite in indignant outrage at one comment on a mohawked student, but either be silent or vociferously entrench the systemic discrimination of African Americans in the US. It's almost as baffling as people's distaste of talking about colonisation's impact on India.
I guess another non-statistical aspect of being a model minority is believing that discrimination and an unfair playing field are a-ok because hey, they make you work harder to get to the same place, and isn't hard work and effort what we're all about?
If you look at the inequality in any society, and attribute it, its going to be attributed in a few ways. If you had a country in which most purple people were well off and most green people were not, you would have to come up with some reason why that is. In my mind, I believe the level of difference between people is small, even in intelligence. Do you really think 90% of the work we do, or the school work we do, could be done only by us and no one else? I think all this talk about bootstraps and individual effort is bunk. Let me be really cheesy. Paneery. How many parents hold up their newborn baby and think to themselves; I'm going to make sure this child has no motivation to learn, study, or work. Instead, I hope to teach him how to effectively court legal trouble or perhaps become the victim of some kind of violent act. No one does this. We all start out with hope, and pretty much similiar attributes. And then society either lifts us up by degree or drags us down. There but for the grace of god/why hath thou forsaken me (or the prevailing structure of society) go I
peace and love, bruv :-)
And that's where I draw the line. People need to be careful with confusing psychological and social issues with people just being flat out lazy. At the end of the day, Indians, West Indians, East Asians and whoever else were NOT there when black people were getting hosed in the streets, locked up, and assasinated by the government.
I have never heard of this. At least not as being a widespread epidemic.
Which is really messed up considering the large numbers of Jamaicans, Trinis, St. Lucians, etc. who come here and have no focus on education whatsoever. But there's a point here:
Compare Chinese, Japanese, Koreans to say... Vietnamese, Khmer, and Laotians
Compare Nigerians, some West Indians, Upper middle class blacks to... american blacks, british blacks (aren't brit blacks mostly west indian in origin?)
I'm not sure what the desi equivalent would be... But I do think its interesting that these subgroups don't get mentioned when people get all rah rah about the success of their particular ethnic group. Because really, you may look black, but at least youre not, you know... black black.
Anyone else come from an anchoring family that sponsored relatives and kept those relatives and paid for their education, food, etc, 'till they got settled? I'm surprised that hasn't come up at SM before
Maybe you are just very lucky to know some really magnanimous desis. I work with the 2nd category of desis and the kind of abuse I see, the shit the 2nd category people get from their 1st category families/friends is scary and sad.
Things are not all that great for the guy standing behind the counter of his chachas store. In most cases he works 12 hours a day (including Sundays) gets no benefits, no days off, washes his chacha's car in the morning, cant get his wife over from Delhi because he cant afford to, gets hell from chachi all day, has to secretly send money over to his own family etc.
The family networks that people here so fondly talk about are modern day slavery contracts.
wanted to correct something...i don't think individual effort is bunk. its important. but to not factor in the part played by outside forces (outside oneself) seems illogical. and yes, i think i work hard and deserve what i have
"does anyone really believe they are genetically smarter?"
uh, yeah, and my name ain't razib. and please--no nazi/fasci remarks, puhleez. It was the perceived brainiest, cleverness, of the Jews, not their dumbness. Come to think of it, so did the commies--Pol Pot went after the literate, the educated. So did the Red Cultural Revolution of China. So did Stalin.
Science has been quietly accumulating evidence in that direction for years now, but the social sciences are still in denial and hold to faith-based egalitarian beliefs. We have just seen the little brown desi who needed desi bone marrow. There are aspects of the brain linked to personality. Why not other mental traits?
and money isn't the answer. More money has been spent in the D.C. public school system than anywhere else--the city government is predominantly black--and the results are no different. I am not saying it's genetic. I'm just saying there is no scientific reason why that should not be given consideration.
Crash. Flash. Immaoutahere
brown jean queen,
do i know you? hhhmmm....
I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying black people had it harder, I'm saying that black americans were the ones fighting for the equal rights in this country that these new immigrant groups are enjoying.
And I just wanted to clarify that I was referring to all races here.
oneup...
wasn't trying to offend, just saying it the way I know it to be, and yes, you are about us not being there when african americans where fighting their battles for equalities in this country, which is why non of us have to right to judge african americans based on media recieved impressions that are not indicative of the african american popolutaion as a whole.
As for whether or not west indians cringe at their children bringing home an african american, trust me they do, they'll never say anything in front of your face, they'll be perfectly polite...til you're gone. My grown uncle went behind his familys back and married an american woman he had been dating because he knew what the response would be had he even told them, and he was right. The entire family freaked out, not because she was crazy (as I knew and they later found out), but because she was a "black yankee". Tell your girlfriends you have a new boyfriend, the first question is (in my case usually) "is he black?", if yes the second is "is he american?" If he is "why?" Trust me I've heard that stupidity too many times to count and not just directed at myself. West induan people are very clannish.
What about the FOB guy who is dating the "American girl" albeit however fat and ugly. He quickly becomes a legend among his fellow Fobbies. Emails and phone calls are traded coast to coast.
And oh, "American" equals white for most FOBs.
AnjaliToo
You make a very valid point. 5 years ago I saw an interview on mixed couples in Mumbai. There was a girl from Mumbai who had moved to the US for grad school and met an African-American in NY.
Before getting married, they decided to go to Mumbai. The extended family was shocked when they met her would-be spouse. They had clearly been expecing a white.
Its kinda screwed up, but most minorities are like that towards african americans. I know a lot west indians might not like it if their kids bring home a white boy/girlfriend even if he is american, but they would prefer that to them bringing home an african american, my parents included. Though my mother keeps asking what happened to that "nice" indian boy I used to date, if only she knew.
Razib and Brown Jean Queen,
I find your arguments about genetically inherited deficiencies/attributes v interesting, so how about you throw some data at me rather than pointing to that all-consuming humanitarian liberal fuzzy wuzzy conspiracy that keeps silencing those brilliant minds of science?
It all reeks suspiciously of the alleged scientific belief that indigenous people where I live are genetically more prone to be violent because of their higher rate of gang membership, crime and domestic abuse... I thought it was because they were oppressed for hundreds of years but woops maybe a tiny pattern on their DNA just got rearranged and screwed it all up.
I honestly can't believe shit like this still gets thrown around in opposition to rather than as a tiny factor along with social and cultural impacts on individuals' life choices, if it is true in the first place. It makes me sick. Even if there are tiny genetic differences between ethnic groups that give us different qualities collectively - Jews, Parsis, Chinese, Indians... I still believe that the impact of such differences pales in comparisons to the social and cultural expectations placed on individuals in a society, as illustrated in the data that Oneup (amazing! with all those defective dumbass black genes just killing off any possibility of original thought!) linked in his/her comments.
And please stop acting like martyrs for some Great Cause of Science. Like I said I'm not saying there aren't scientific racial differences, just provide links to the data rather than acting like members of some mysterious cult shielding others from the truth...
If data is used along with other studies to help bridge racial inequality then that's great and science has served its purpose. If it is used as an excuse to avoid helping those inferior races who often happen to be the most historically oppressed, then science can bite my hardworking, A-plus, dutiful, obedient, model minroty ass.
*minority.
I typo when I'm angry.