September 15, 2006
American BabelFashion
Back in the day, I had an Italian co-worker who had the oh-so-Italian name “Enzo” coupled with the deadly, oh-so-Italian accent. The amazing thing about Enzo was that it didn’t matter one bit what was actually coming out of his mouth - the ladies in the office always had the same swooning reaction, “oh Enzo, say ‘operating system’ again. It sounds so sexy.”
Blech.
Despite having a pretty American accent myself (with an occasional touch of TX), I knew enough about how the world worked to know that one day, just once, I’d love to hear women swoon at the Indian accent. And on that day, my proverbial ship would finally come in and perhaps a few perceived ethnic slights would be righted. But, as Russell Peters once quipped, the primary thing the Indian accent is good for is cutting the tension.“The primary thing the Indian accent is good for is cutting the tension.”
The lesson? Enzo’s Italian accent evoked the exotic beauty, power and grace of a Ferrari the same way DesiTalk brought forth the rugged manliness of Apu.
So, the following commercial didn’t really move my meter much. TV Junkie that I am, I’ve usually got the boob tube on in the background while working. And, as a result, I probably get more than my fair share of 30second pop culture. So like many of you, I’ve come across a series of TV commercials for L’Oreal Cosmetics starring none other than our own Aishwarya Rai…
Exhibit A - an Aishwarya commercial for L’Oreal cosmetics uploaded to Youtube some 6 months ago and thus probably close to a year old. Listen carefully as she, dealing with the intractible tragicomedy that is life, asks if you too “Feel Like Your Dark Hair is Too Dark?” -
Clearly a voiceover. And a bad one at that. And, for now at least, I’ll direct our ethno-authenticity hounds away from the “solve life’s problems / lighten your hairSolve life’s problems / lighten your hair” message.
Still, there’s an important lesson to be gleamed — Aish’s Color / Clarity / Contrast / Symmetry highlighted by blue eyes might be good enough for America’s brunette, aspiring suburban diva’s. BUT, producers feared her accent would detract from the overall motif. Perhaps her voice was seen as an unanticipated touch of Apu where the audience was expecting Enzo. Oh well.
But waiddaminut. Let us observe social evolution before our eyes in less than 12 months. The latest series of L’Oreal commercials has begun to air with a decidedly different tone -
From the innocently posed inquiry “ready to transform your lashes?” to the bold call to action “dare to be daring” we hear Aishwarya and her [uptown / gentrified] desi accent in its raw, full, transformative glory. You, the tired, huddled, housewives of Des Moines with 2.1 kids could be her. In your aspirational dreams. With just the right mascara. Sort of.
Nevertheless, for a moment, let us recognize that while the political wheels of social equality get tripped up by Macaca-gate and whatnot, Madison Avenue appears to be delivering a certain type of progress. However, it’s a front many activists prefer to ignore, others consider inherently antithetical to progress, and some, arguably, wish would go away altogether — the mass market. Middle America’s dreams & aspirations. Wal-Mart’s feminine beauty aisle.
And what shall we call this strange domain? How about The Real World.
An interesting tactical debate for Afro-American observors has been the degree to
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There goes the neighborhood. |
Gay advocates similarly debate the delta between Will&Grace and QueerEye vs. QueerNation and their contribution towards the ongoing sea change in Gay acceptance over the past decade… For African-Americans, Gays, and other historically marginalized groups, both prongs have certainly contributed, but there are important lessons that emerge from trying to tease apart which was and is more effective today and moving forward. Important political lessons.
My opinion should be pretty obvious. But, back to more pressing matters. Legions of desi’s should brace themselves for the moment when The Accent is finally sexy — and that matters to my Real World. While Aishwarya’s undubbed voice might serve as a small step for commercial America, it’s a giant leap for DesiKind.
vinod on September 15, 2006 12:59 PM in Beauty, Fashion, Issues · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Can I just say that I once knew a boy from Bombay, and whether he knew it or not, I'd be swooning every time he said anything, because he had that pseudo-semi-british, distinctly Bombaite, sexy accent thing going....
ohh and all my gora friends thought it was hawt too
Aishwaryas undubbed voice might serve as a small step for commercial America, its a giant leap for DesiKind.
It will happen one day, Nixon bro. Like the French.
On the tangent, Aishwarya has had a language/ accent coach (I read it a while ago). It is very distinct if you compare it to her earlier interviews in English. Even 800 number folks in India go to accent schools.
Now Salma Hayek, another story.
well there are different types of indian english accents, as there are american english and british english accents. some are considered more appealing than others. i'm not sure middle america will ever fully accept the apu-type indian accent, the same way that many americans with strong southern accents or other strong regional accents, or australians with really strong aussie accents or brits with non-bbc accents are forced to or choose to change their accents to generic american accents. the same way that many foreigners singing in english choose the generic american pop english accent instead of their own nation's version of english.
Oh, how I love me an Aishwarya post! All this undubbing happened immediately after she had those rounds of interviews on Letterman, CBS, etc. It's like Loreal realized that hey, if she can go on talk shows with her natural voice, maybe she can pull off two short sentences in our commercial! Anyway, I'm just glad they got rid of that horrible dubbed voice.
I'm excited about her upcoming roles in Provoked and The Last Legion.
...but then again, she could just stand there and smile and I'd be excited.
Brilliant post.
ok.. i just wasted 1/2 min on aishwarya rai's desi ad .. and you know how the mind wanders...
since this blows hair 12 times, and it calls out for daring... i'll take the leap of faith and try it on my back.
hellowww layd-ies. you may scratch my belly.
there's a snl sketch in there somewhere.
The original "Mad Max" movie had all the Australian accents dubbed over with American voices when it was released in the US. Took a while for Aussie accents to become "sexy" . Even now most Australian actors like Hugh Jackman, Anthony LaPaglia etc disguise their native accents so that they can get more "mainstream" work (atleast in the US).
Good post!
V, agree with the pop culture and advertising observations, but this gives me pause:
Come again?
p.s. here's the first SM post which dealt with Loreal's ridonkulously lush Aish-scara...
It does depend on the type of Indian accent. I doubt people listen to Fareed Zakaria's voice and start giggling to themselves, "Man, he talks funny." One of my accounting professors (Indian) back at GW spoke with an accent that did seem to draw a bit extra attention from my female classmates.
A funny take on accents was done on My Name is Earl, where Earl has to get on the right side of karma by teaching English to immigrants, since the past he made fun of accents. They flashback to him in a hospital, where an Indian doctor says to Earl, "This is bery bery bad, you will get an inbection." Earl points at him and says, "Ha hah - Bery Bery! You can't say v's!" The extra in-joke is that he speaks with a comical Southern accent.
My Name is Earl
There were some Nokia t.v. ads that aired here in Canada, last year. Although no desi's were present (it was a product power shot) the voiceover dude wasn't the voiceover dude that's used to voiceover every commercial (and movie preview) that requires a voiceover: it was a female desi with an accent. No, not an obnoxious caricature accent; but a refined accent. There was definitely some "insider" work here, because without that insider perspective, it would have been the generic voiceover dude's voice. Good job "insider" !! You made me nod in recognition of your attempt to revert stereotypes! I smiled at you that day! :-)
I fail to see how a former Ms. Universe speaking in a convent school super upperclass accent on a commericial for makeup does anything for the people of the U.S. that sound like Apu.
I'm not opposing this commerical, it really doesn't make a difference to me, but "a giant step forward for desikind"? Please. A giant step forward would be if an Indian person that looks like someone you might find on the street is held up as a sex symbol, or if an Indian person with a normal immigrant accent (like Apu's except that Apu is a white guy) would get a regular role where he was allowed to be a real person instead of an outdated stereotype. I have about as much in common with Aish as I do with Salma Hayek or Catherine Zeta Jones; that is to say, nothing other than the fact I think she's hot. She does little for my self-image, and I question whether it helps any other brown folk either, other than reinforcing the whole "Indians are OK and even hot as long as their hair, skin and eyes are all light colored".
Anything that comes out of Ash's mouth is gonna sound good!
Don't know if your friendly neighborhood engineering TA's accent is as sexy though.
BidiSmoker (Gautham?) - I always thought the Apu accent was highly exxagerated for comic effect. But if people perceive that to be accurate, then I see your point - it doesn't do anything for the "real brown person" especially the working class.
aishwarya in upcoming remake of umrao jaan (she certainly has a tough act to follow):
http://movies.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=1993396
http://movies.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=1993398
No kidding - recently, I had a girl swoon over my accent.
All I said was "Jolly Rancher" and she went, say it again.
I said - do you like it?
She said - I love it, when you say.
I said - do you love it?
She said - I luurve it.
I said - I am P
She said - I am Pat
and she said - I am Pat, mckroch.
and she said - I am Pat my crotch.
I said - turn around.
How old are you...5?
Word. I'd like to think the SM community is a little funnier/more sophisticated than that
Funnier, yeah. More sophisticated?
I know you are, but what am I?
Oh, wait.
"How old are you...5?"
His friends are a RIOT too! Just read his blog, and get ready to be exposed to extreme funniness.
That was not an attempt to be funny or humorous, nor was it fictional. The same girl told me that she is PR person for playboy. Now, did I believe everything that she said?
Whats up with all this snide, ppl? Its friday, relax.
I always said nothing is harder in the world then a Indian man finding a date outside of his race. Every race on the planet has something sexy about them.
White Guys: Every model is a white guy, the blue eyes dont hurt either
Black Guys: Are famous for, well you know
Latino's: The latin lover sterotype
East Asian's: Kung Fu is awesome, ripped bodies
Indian's: Perception is lives in house's made out of cow dung because we love worshipping cow dung.
If an Indian man can over come that and still get a woman then he should go done in Pimp history.
Shallow thinker-
It's the exotic tan!
(I will ask Pardesi Gori the answer to this when I see her...)
Prasad (and the subsequent commenters) made me laugh loudly...
Jolly Rancher is the official pick up line to be used at the meetup tonight...
Really? That sucks. I was going to go with:
"Excuse me, are you mutinous? No? Would you like to be mutinous with me?
or how about:
"Excuse me, do you have any Sepia in you? Would you like some?
*apologies for the threadjacking.
I fail to see how a former Ms. Universe speaking in a convent school super upperclass accent on a commericial for makeup does anything for the people of the U.S. that sound like Apu.
I think it helps a little bit. And every little bit helps. Whether this would be progressive or not depends on who you ask. First off, I think this commercial would play quite differently in India versus the United States. Aishwarya would be alternative look/darker complexion/Indian accented/desi in the US, but in India, she would be mainstream look/towards the fairer end of the complexion spectrum/American/videshi accented/phoren. I don't have any numbers to support this, but we already know that there is a premium placed on "fair"ness in Indian society, there is a market for skin-lightening creams, "fair" actresses work better in Bollywood, et cetera. I think it is reasonable to think that this ad as it is would _reinforce stereotypes_ of what is cool and what is good-looking in India.
If this were adopted as part of a global campaign, there would be an inflexion point. There is going to be a certain number of people who are going to be better off because of it, and there is going to be a certain number of people who are going to be worse off. This is similar to the way many, many policies work. For instance, people who are below the inflexion point in terms of a certain socioeconomic profile (and this is not just based on income) get more from the state than what they pay, and people who are above the inflexion point pay more to the state than they get from it. A lot of folks in India and America would benefit from un-desified marketing campaigns, but a much larger number of brown folks in India would probably get hurt. The numbers are probably not even comparable. (In terms of numbers, it would, in fact, play quite similar to John Kerry's "fair trade" monkey economics - far more people would get hurt by these restrictive trade policies than would benefit).
If by Madison Avenue, you mean the advertising industry in India AND America, then I think you are right. It is not surprising to me that there are many people in India who blame Madison Avenue for being part of the problem, but Madison Avenue ain't going away any time soon. The only way out, as far as I see, is for the ad to be adapted for an Indian audience, very possibly by Indian advertising companies, and such adapatation might even help undoing these stereotypes for brown folks back in the homeland.
"Don't you know? I'm from the land of the Kama Sutra"
"I'm like chocolate milk. Not as good for you, but tastes a hell of a lot better."
Very iconoclastic post Vinod. Funny and thought provoking. I see why Rand chose you to be her boy-toy.
Funny you said this. B/f reading SM, I associated the word exotic mostly with italian supercars. Now I know "to exoticise" is a very very bad thing to do, despiste the fact that americans do it to europeans all the time. In fact, when I was younger i used to exoticise european women; I dreamed of sitting in cafes sipping wine and eating fois gras while discussing philosophy with a dark, sopisticated, mysterious woman with an accent. When I finally got a european girlfriend, i found most of what I wanted but she preferred KFC with a Coke.
people are individuals not representatives of a culture, but i'm sure enzo didn't mind fulfilling some american woman's exotic fantasy.
Manju-
I think that's a good point. Most guys don't mind being exoticized if it includes more women paying attention to them. Then again, all the desi sistas I know hate it. Maybe the guys would too, if it ever happens. But something tells me, if it was cool or exotic to be Indian, we'd have a lot more ABDs pulling thick Apu accents and putting oil in their hair to increase their chances of getting exploited by the Man, wait the Woman
Before the appearances most Americans would have watched the ad and said "this woman looks Caucasian but has an accent I wonder where she is from?" thus taking attention away from the product. After the appearances people would have said "I've seen her before on Letterman and shes Indian, I wonder why she doesnt have an accent?", thus taking attention away from the product.
I wish it had to do with Indian accents suddenly being considered more acceptable or sexy, but I think its just about the effectiveness of the ad. Same thing for Salma Hayek etc, who are very recognisable and associated with their accents.
The first two paragraphs were addressed to BidiSmoker and the last one to Vinod. Should have clarified that.
Most guys don't mind being exoticized if it includes more women paying attention to them.
I wonder what the image of Indian people is among gay people, assuming there is one.
oh c'mon. there's gotta be at least one gay indian.
"I wonder what the image of Indian people is among gay people, assuming there is one."
Sadly, sterotyping and racism exists within sub-groups and sub-cultures, even if those groups themselves, have been historically discriminated against. Why we can't learn from our own experiences and apply it to others, I don't know.
This topic frustrates me to no end.
Interesting post. It seems that every accent which is popularly considered "sexy" in the U.S. belongs to some group of white people, wheter Brits or Frenchmen or whatever. I think plain racism has a lot to do with which accents Americans consider to be sexy. If people from some European country talked like Apu, would it be considered sexy?
Agree with post #34. If an average Appu looked like John Abraham/Milind Soman/me ;-), the accent would be considered exotic and sexy..
"Interesting post. It seems that every accent which is popularly considered "sexy" in the U.S. belongs to some group of white people, wheter Brits or Frenchmen or whatever. I think plain racism has a lot to do with which accents Americans consider to be sexy. If people from some European country talked like Apu, would it be considered sexy?"
i'm not sure that's necessarily true, although it may be for some people. after all, you see american tv making fun of german and nordic (swedish) accents, which are generally not considered sexy, hence they are mocked. again, it depends on what type of brit accent. i don't see americans considering cockney or heavy northern england or scottish accents sexy. they specifically go for that james bondish, queen's english, oxford, cambridge accent.
Coolest desi accent of all time: The carribbean-desi accent
Nastiest desi accent of all time: White-guy trying to imitate a desi accent... sounds nasty
i'm not sure that's necessarily true, although it may be for some people. after all, you see american tv making fun of german and nordic (swedish) accents, which are generally not considered sexy, hence they are mocked. again, it depends on what type of brit accent. i don't see americans considering cockney or heavy northern england or scottish accents sexy. they specifically go for that james bondish, queen's english, oxford, cambridge accent.
True, not every white accent is considered sexy (Russians come to mind), but every accent which is usually considered sexy in the States belongs to some group of whites.
:oh c'mon. there's gotta be at least one gay indian
Manju, I have a few gora friends who play for the other team. They are about as attracted to Indian dudes as the Taliban is to Greco-Buddhist statues.
Interesting post. It seems that every accent which is popularly considered "sexy" in the U.S. belongs to some group of white people, wheter Brits or Frenchmen or whatever. I think plain racism has a lot to do with which accents Americans consider to be sexy. If people from some European country talked like Apu, would it be considered sexy?
Not sure about that - which would most Americans consider sexy - a Polish accent or a Caribbean accent?
Manju, I have a few gora friends who play for the other team. They are about as attracted to Indian dudes as the Taliban is to Greco-Buddhist statues.
why is why there is no gay sex tourism to south asia? :-) i know of gay white dudes who are way too into telling me about their brown conquests....
"True, not every white accent is considered sexy (Russians come to mind), but every accent which is usually considered sexy in the States belongs to some group of whites."
i see. sorry if i misunderstood. i think it goes along with what the culture also considers to be the most physically attractive or the standard - europe has for the most part always had a cache for americans, especially if you watch old Hollywood movies. a trip to europe (the mother continent for many) was considered a sign of culture and affluence. maybe now that it's available to more people, it will lose some of that cache in time. you can already see some american women rebelling against the idea that has been forced down their throats for decades: that french women are somehow innately more sophisticated, beautiful, and the global fashion icons. while that may have been true before for americans, not so anymore.
let's face it, unfortunately even indians, including some of those i know who were born and raised in the u.s., make fun of the apu-type stereotype and people with those accents. which accent do diasporic indian comedians/actors choose when they want to inject some humour into their routines/roles? the apu-type accent, not the aishwarya-accent.
I see. sorry if i misunderstood. i think it goes along with what the culture also considers to be the most physically attractive or the standard - europe has for the most part always had a cache for americans, especially if you watch old Hollywood movies.
I agree, it is some form of Eurocentrism (I believe that's what you're saying).
let's face it, unfortunately even indians, including some of those i know who were born and raised in the u.s., make fun of the apu-type stereotype and people with those accents. which accent do diasporic indian comedians/actors choose when they want to inject some humour into their routines/roles? the apu-type accent, not the aishwarya-accent.
That's very true, I know desis born and raised here who clown the Apu accent. I think they are eager to show that they are "Americans" and disassociate themselves with the "fob" image.
"I agree, it is some form of Eurocentrism (I believe that's what you're saying)."
in a nutshell, yes. much better than my longwinded attempt.:)
Neale
Indeed, and the term for someone gay who chases desis exclusively is Curry Queen.
"Indeed, and the term for someone gay who chases desis exclusively is Curry Queen"
"i've heard Basmaati queen"
Yeah, and those are both "favourable" terms, right?
No, no, it's too tempting!....
I'm a bit worried though about 'gender equality' among desis. A family friend who lives in the US wrote a shite book called 'Impressing The Whites' that had one important point in it...Asian women are often given a niche of acceptance as Exotic Hotties. And I've found that there is a belief (similar to Arab/Persian people) that desi girls are much hotter than the guys in general. I'm not saying there's no Jon Abrahams out there, I'm just saying that people seem to think there's more Preity Zintas.
And yeah, Vinod, Aish's upper class desi accent is hot, but Apu's 'two seconds away from being deported but that will be 19.99 thank you please come again' accent...no.
"I wonder what the image of Indian people is among gay people, assuming there is one."
Oh honey, we're everywhere. We exist in pockets, though. I can't make a case for other gay Indian men but for myself, I find myself off-putting to men who are often times very specific about wanting to date ONLY white men and sometimes I find myself coveted crazily by white men who have a fetish for South Asian gay men. it's a meat market, really, but in the gay dating scene, Indians do havea distinct niche and there is a definite demand for them. It's just if you can find where the demand is and Middle America is the worst place to be a double minority, regardless of gender or ethnicity.
I've never dated an Indian guy though -- mostly because the supply was nonexistent, but that should change with a proximity to NYC.
And I do think that Aish's L'Oreal advert was a step in the right direction. I just wish she'd be more militant about her promo work and about forcing a foothold in Hollywood. Hollywood's take on Indians is awful -- and Apu is voiced by a white guy -- Hank Azaria (fabulous actor in real life if anyone's seen !Huff.)
Erm, not really, but they reflect "badly" on the person doing the fetishistic/exoticizing, rather than on the (desi) one being exoticized.
Neale, there's a whole stream of these, right.... I had also heard rice queen (but I think that's supposed to refer to someone Asian chasing white people)....
Shallow Thinker, on your point, I think there are some famous desi men who are swooned over by gringas (e.g. Sonny Mehta, Shashi Tharoor, SRK, Amitabh Bachchan, AB 2.0, etc), but it's just that no one of them has reached a critical mass yet. But that day must be fast approaching...
I'm a bit worried though about 'gender equality' among desis. A family friend who lives in the US wrote a shite book called 'Impressing The Whites' that had one important point in it...Asian women are often given a niche of acceptance as Exotic Hotties. And I've found that there is a belief (similar to Arab/Persian people) that desi girls are much hotter than the guys in general. I'm not saying there's no Jon Abrahams out there, I'm just saying that people seem to think there's more Preity Zintas.
That may have something to do that men in general are just more blunt about what they find attractive, and in keeping track, ethnicity is one category. Women seem to keep such opinions to themselves. Although I will say that many female undergrads third year abroad in Europe seemed to have been used for reasons other than studying.
Ok, since we've veered off in a gay direction for a second, may I just mention, for anyone in Bombay reading this, that there is going to be a special premier screening of Amol Palekar's Thaang (The Quest), sponsored by the Humsafar Trust (which does such good work outreach and advocacy work for gay men in and around Bombay) on September 30 at 9pm at the INOX Cinema at Nariman Point?
If there was a URL for it, I'd put it in events section.
The organization is throwing its support behind the film because it deals with a wife who catches her husband in flagrante delicto with another man, and what happens after that, and apparently because it deals quite frankly with the subject matter, distributors are balking.
Ok, sorry, back to the Aish topic....
A family friend who lives in the US wrote a shite book called 'Impressing The Whites' that had one important point in it...
Tashie, now that we've made friends over caste :) I actually want that book! Richard Crasta, right? Its supposed to be hillarious.
To add more noise to Sepia, I put Google to work and unearthed the following "outlier" photos of Ms. Rai:
without makeup
in those 80s hairstyles
as a dorky teenager
What miracles time and the right kind of makeup can wrought! ;)
We're only till you get that hug you need and stop being aggro and realise that I wasn't showing off. Having grown up exposed to mostly white people and sheep means that I never got exposed to that old joke that all non Hindus try to say they're not upper caste. Being part of that thread made me aware of it so I can see the eye rolling from over here, but it was sincerely not meant in a show off way. I was just commenting to DQ that what I myself thought was true too was in fact not totally true, of all converts being from one group. That was the first time I'd even said it and I only even bothered to ask about it this year. I can't help my Bounty Bar upbringing other than engaging in therapeutic cultural contact by visiting what my sis calls the FOB blog.
Anyways, no you don't want that book. Richard Crasta or Avatar Prabhu as he likes to call himself is a self-conscious bad writer who takes the unoriginal Unsuccessful Indian Writer route of criticising Rushdie (by calling him the holy cow of Indian literature), showing off that he didn't become a doctor but did an MA instead, and writing prose so purple it made my eyes bleed.
"That phrase needs to go the way of bagged spinach."
off topic but i just had to throw away all spinach and mixed greens, fresh bought from the store. annoying but necessary :(
What! Put your sister on the blog please.
Hey,its Friday....
Palakgate
She's 15 and wears blue eyeshadow in broad daylight. I don't think you need to worry :)
Neale, really curious now - what do curry and basmati queens find so appealing in desi guys (aside from their IQs...)?
Btw, there's a gay Indian comic who did the Just For Laughs festival here in Mtl, and who is hilarious...
Over here those L'Oreal ads with Aish are dubbed in Dutch. I think this is the same for all non-native English speaking countries. It's really surreal to watch.
What miracles time and the right kind of makeup can wrought! ;)
You forgot the plastic surgery, the botox, the $200/hour personal trainer, the dietician...
That may have something to do that men in general are just more blunt about what they find attractive, and in keeping track, ethnicity is one category. Women seem to keep such opinions to themselves. Although I will say that many female undergrads third year abroad in Europe seemed to have been used for reasons other than studying.
KXB maybe men are more indiscriminate. Some will go after anyone with the right kind of plumbing irrespective of...ahem which "category" that person belongs to.
Nice one, Vinod.
OK, this to all the ABDs out there: How many of you can "tone down" your accent when speaking to aunties/uncles? Also, this can be a particularly handy skill, if you plan on doing a Power-point presentation for a South Asian audience:D
Peace
UMM
What "accent"? To ABDs the FOBs speak with weird accents :-)
Touché Desidawg,
Well, let me rephrase: How many ABDs can mimic the erudite FOB accent (picture Indian news-reader reading English news) without coming across as condescending?:)
"Women seem to keep such opinions to themselves"
Perhaps about more explicit sexual details, but definitely not in general about who they find hot/exotic. Moreso than looks, I think there's a negative stereotype about the behaviour of desi guys: they're sexist, expect women to cool and clean and respect their mommy. Maybe that's ultimately the cause of the 'turn off.'
Though I must say, it's not only the goras who run after the 'exotic' desi girl. Look at bollywood dances these days. You'll see the actors dancing with tons of white girls, especially blond white girls, in skimpy clothes. The girls act like they're crazy about the dancing actors. Do you see any white men dancing behind desi actresses? No.
What's wrong with respecting your husband's mother? Many of the divorces amongst ABDs I know are the result of the inability to do just that. Of course, men should respect their wives' parents too (although at least in the northern Indian culture that's a fundamentally different relationship)...and I recognize some mother-in-laws are evil...but there is a major attitude problem that a lot of desi women have from the get-go regarding potential future in-laws...it leads to a lot of unhappiness all around, and the husband is always caught in the middle. And from what I've seen, the women are often more unhappy later on when they're divorced and alone.
Regardless of what accent you sport right now, its always an ice breaker to switch to Super Apu and get a laugh. As for the best accents I think its mine! (Arent I just sooo modest?) Not as clipped as the English, or as harsh as the Australian's, purely, Durbanite-South African. Although I do apologies for the very Capetonian accent of the popular SA (South African/South Asian) comedian Riaad Mossa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9G9A15AU4w
We need to stop hating on Ash, always support the brown. Comment #27 Bidismoker, I love the chocolate milk line, I am going to be using it on all sorts of people today...
...expect women to cool and clean and respect their mommy...
Pardon me for being a stickler for grammar, but some posters on here need to spend a teeny weeny bit of time composing their thoughts.
so first you cool down the old woman with a pitcher of ice. Then you clean her with soap and water. Finally show her some respect?
:-)
DesiDawg, thanks for being the spelling and grammar police. Most people who read that post, I'm assuming, will realize that a comma's missing, and that the 'l' in cook is supposed to be a 'k.' (
Amitabh, I was only pointing out a negative stereotype. There's nothing wrong with respecting someone who respects you as well. The other stereotype about Desi inlaws is that they are interfering, they don't have respect for the privacy of their adult children etc. While I'm not saying I believe all this, I'm pointing out that these may be some of the reasons while white women will not find desi men necessarily appealing. (If there are any grammar/spelling mistakes in this post, DesiDawg, please feel free to point it out in your snarky way.)
The other stereotype about Desi inlaws is that they are interfering, they don't have respect for the privacy of their adult children etc. While I'm not saying I believe all this, I'm pointing out that these may be some of the reasons while white women will not find desi men necessarily appealing.
So at the bar, at parties, get-togethers and indeed in all forms of social interaction while mildly inebriated- white women think ahead to marriage, the interfering in-laws and the "baggage" that a desi man carries?
Deep, very very deep.
Maybe the answer lies in basic physical attraction?
Occam's razor "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"
Desi men who get divorced are also unhappy and alone. There's a school of men out there who persistently think of women as basically unmoored without a man, adrift and perhaps sinking. In fact, study after study shows that it's men who suffer most from not having a woman in their lives (mentally and health-wise). Single women, for some unfathomable reason, come out on top, enjoying better mental and physical health than married ones.
Dharma Queen:
All that is true...I'm just talking anecdotally from several cases (close friends) that I have seen. And yes, I am biased towards my (guy) friends' points of view. Usually for guys, getting married a 2nd time isn't so tough... but a lot of these divorced women have close to zero chance with another Indian guy from a decent family... and my main point was, that (in the particular situations I'm talking about) although the women were so unhappy in their marriages, and couldn't compromise in order to make things work, their lives post-divorce are even worse...utter loneliness, and the prospect of children/marriage very bleak. Some are having affairs with co-workers, some haven't even managed that. One friend's ex-wife just couldn't get over him, and I wonder to this day why she didn't just try to make her marriage work...even if that meant compromising as far as his parents were concerned. Now of course if a woman has a very strong sense of self, and does need to be with a guy in order to feel fulfilled, etc. then I guess it's better for them to leave an unhappy marriage and be alone...but at least be happy after that! Which from what I've seen is rare. I'm sure other people have their own anecdotes which can contradict what I'm saying.
UMM, how many erudit FOBs can pull that accent off without coming off as condescending? I have routinely been accused of being a classist capitalistic pig whose head must roll in the new revolution. All this, because I have a thing for antiestablishmentarian types.
Amitabh,
Don't have all that much experience of desi-desi relationships breaking up, so you may be right about these paradigms. However, the one desi-desi breakup I witnessed up close was that of my parents, and my Dad couldn't get over it (though he would have died rather than admit it), while my mom got over it and had a few flings into the bargain (admittedly with non-desis). She did date one Ismaili guy, though, who had absolutely no problem with her being divorced. So I dunno...
I think desi women who are open to non-desi men can move on quite easily. Of course, we are talking about desi women who don't care too much about social stigma etc.
The first person who reaches for the "woman needs a man" quote gets a serious ass-kicking, ok?
I think women are basically the greatest ambassadors for race relations ever. Men may hate on other men's color, but they love other colors of women! Not that this is relevant to anything, really.
Anyway, I've noticed far more social stigma attached to being divorced with the "younger" generation (20- and 30-somethings) than with desis of my parents' generation. Maybe because they're just more familiar (and sympathetic) with marital strife, I dunno...but I know a few people my own age who are divorced and try and hide the fact in their dating lives (usually with disastrous results).
Oy Vey Desidawg, you don't have to bring in marriage into the picture. I should have said parents instead of 'inlaws.' My mistake again. I do think there's a negative stereotype. Think about it, how many gori women would be comfortable about thinking of dating a man, whom they perceive, is sexist/controlling (and is a mommy's boy). This is somewhat similar to the stereotype that guards these women against being attracted to middle eastern men (in my opinion some are the most gorgeous men in the world!). They are afraid of the negative stereotype that middle eastern men are controlling and sexist.
Amitabh, "but a lot of these divorced women have close to zero chance with another Indian guy from a decent family... and my main point was, that (in the particular situations I'm talking about) although the women were so unhappy in their marriages, and couldn't compromise in order to make things work, their lives post-divorce are even worse...utter loneliness, and the prospect of children/marriage very bleak."
Amitabh, perhaps you should consider that many desi women don't consider 'marrying a desi man from a decent family and then breeding offspring' to be the highlights of life. Compromise is the key here--both men and women have to compromise. And sometimes, even when people try to compromise the best they can, it just doesn't work out. It's very condescending to think everything's the woman's fault. Very 1970s hindi movie attitude: ladki boj hoti hain, a woman's husband is like her god etc. Even my very traditional and old grandmother agrees that that attitude's idiotic.
Aditi,
Strongly agree.
Btw, part of the reason some ABD women avoid FOBs is the assumption (sometimes completely wrong) that a FOB will impose on them these ideas about women's lives being chiefly about marrying, compromising and breeding.
DQ: Yes, the assumption is sometimes completely wrong.
Many of the so-called FOBs these days have had in fact much more freedom (growing up) than their counterpart ABDs.
Some things that are considered commonplace in India are unheard of in the US. Kids in 5th grade (in India) cycle their way to school..kids in 8th grade (both boys and girls) drive bikes/scooters etc to school. Parents are not over protective of their kids..and usually give them a lot of space while growing up.
A lot has to do with the fact that most(?) desi parents in US are still stuck in the 1970's definition of being a "good desi kid" while the parents in India have moved on.
Brown Fob,
Yeah I can see that. My eyes were opened recently when I met a FOB chick, born and raised in Mumbai, who is far wilder than I was at her age (early twenties) - she has tattoos and piercings and writes articles in a local rag about not shagging her (non-desi) bf because she's too absorbed in the book she's reviewing for the rag.
Actually, my mom is a FOB chick who's a lot wilder than me, come to think of it.
DQ:
Interesting.
Being "wild" was not what I meant. The so-called FOBs are not stuck in age old mentality when it comes to relationships, marriage, sex etc. They might or might not be "wild" ... but one thing that is true is that they have moved with the times.
Many of the so-called FOBs these days have had in fact much more freedom (growing up) than their counterpart ABDs.
I also happen to agree with DQ and think our parents are pretty "wild." Many fob women and men in their 40s have held on to marriage out of inertia, and then one day they have an epiphany: I'm here, nothing is stopping me from leaving and having some fun for a change. so they have relationships and occasionally remarry - usually, in my experience, with other divorced desis! They feel especially free when the kids have left the house.
Jamaican accent as well as some Latino accents are also considered sexy.
Indian Americans are disproportinately Nerds. Nerds are not sexy. This why Asian accents in general are not considered sexy. Also applies to nerdish Europeans like Germans or Russians.
Some things that are considered commonplace in India are unheard of in the US. Kids in 5th grade (in India) cycle their way to school..kids in 8th grade (both boys and girls) drive bikes/scooters etc to school.
Since when did they start calling "classes" in India "grades"? There seems to be an obsession in FOBs to convert everything to its American equivalent. People on here will understand what you're talking about even if you stick to the desi terms.
Risible,
Your Dad's not single, is he? If he is, maybe we can 'arrange' something. Right here on SM. (Of course, we'll have to let them meet first. I don't believe in the old ways, just seeing some photos and then poof! you're married. I've moved with the times.)
DesiDawg:
Last I heard, they still called it "5th class" and not "5th grade" in India. The reason why I wrote "grade" was to avoid unnecessary confusion (as most of the readers here are americans). Infact I first wrote "class" ...but then the sentence "Kids in 5th class cycle their way to school..kids in 8th class drive bikes/scooters etc" sounded a little confusing (class = strata).
FOBs don't have an obsession to "convert everything to its American equivalent". Its just that they try to avoid unnecessary confusion. Small things like "class" vs. "grade" , "passed out" vs. "graduated" don't matter a whole lot.
Its the big issues (pronouncing one's name) which are more sensitive.
DesiDawg:
Yes some might...but some won't. Its always better to avoid unnecessary confusion.
If I start using "proper desi terms", then I'll have to explain a lot of things.
DesiDawg:
WTF?
Dharma Queen:
Just to clarify, I'm not a fob..raised in NY/NJ area since I was 3. Although I enjoy debating with you and respect your point of view (if you remember during one of our previous debates you mentioned a beautiful Bengali line about a gypsy having forgotten her homeland, I still remember that one), some of your approving comments above regarding your mom's flings and how cool you find 'wildness' in a person, show me that we are poles apart in some very fundamental ways and probably approach things from very different perspectives. Anyway, I do agree with the following that you said
It's the women who want/need an Indian husband (ABD or not) for whatever reason who can get messed up in the event of a divorce; and given the large number of single Indian women who badly want to get married to an Indian (maybe only for their parents' sake), yet could have married a non-desi years ago, I think this is a major factor in many people's lives.*Sigh* Perhaps you should analyze the problem from a different point of view Amitabh. People feel unfulfilled if they do not do what makes them happy (of makes them feel like they are a worthwhile human being). Doing everything to make their parents happy without thinking about themselves at all, is perhaps, the main reason why a lot of desi men and women are depressed.
I know of quite a few Indian marriages where the primary reason why the marriage did not land up in divorce was because the woman kept compromising. Quite a few of them compromised to the point of loosing their own sense of self. I think that no matter what race of partner you would like to have, you need to foster a sense of self within yourself (male or female) in order for a marriage to be fulfilling for both parties.
I've noticed that there is a tendency among Indians to lay the burden of a successful marriage on the woman. A lot of times if a woman leaves the marriage and goes back to her house, she is told that she has to go back to her husband and make the best of it. The Indian society itself tends to attach a lot stigma to divorce and I think it still exists. There is this attitude that a woman cannot make it alone in life. My own mother always tells me that my life begins when I get married. It is an absolutely ridiculous attitude to have. I know of a woman who was married off to a guy in India, after a year of marriage (and a child later) the husband demanded that her father sign off all family wealth in his name. When the father refused, the husband divorced teh woman. Now the daughter is a highly educated, intelligent woman. Instead of giving his daughter the emotional support needed to ensure that she survives and moves on with her life, he decided to go on a hunt to find another husband for her. This kind of attitude brings down the value of an individual.
I think there needs to be a slight shift in attitude from 'compromising and suffering for the sake of family' to 'trying your best and then realising that there is nothign than can be done and to cut your losses'. A shift from focusing solely on family to focusing on family WITHOUT loosing one's self of individuality as well. Finding a balance between the two is the key in mind.
I've noticed that there is a tendency among Indians to lay the burden of a successful marriage on the woman. A lot of times if a woman leaves the marriage and goes back to her house, she is told that she has to go back to her husband and make the best of it. The Indian society itself tends to attach a lot stigma to divorce and I think it still exists. There is this attitude that a woman cannot make it alone in life.
Priya, some of the things you mention simply do not happen in today's India-at least among the educated. 20 years ago yes maybe. I doubt you are talking about people from the talukas here.
I know of a woman who was married off to a guy in India, after a year of marriage (and a child later) the husband demanded that her father sign off all family wealth in his name. When the father refused, the husband divorced teh woman.
I put very little credence on hearsay. You only report the woman's point of view here. The man would have a totally different take on why the marriage collapsed. As Confucius said "In the middle lies the truth".
Agree with you Vinod. One small blabber for Aish. One giant leap for our kind. Wish it was a better commercial, though.
My two cents on the desi-desi breakup. First of all, it is still rare guys...and gals. Secondly, the woman does reorient herself after the breakup much faster than the man. It has nothing to do with being desi. Women have that ability. Read Shakespeare. Man dreams, hallucinates, harbors weird emotions that cause nothing but tragedy. Woman steps in, sorts things out, even if she has to assist him in a little murder, and sometimes she can save him, sometimes not.
DQ: No not my dad, he is still keeping my mom happy :) I was thinking of an uncle actually who I wouldn't reccommend. Let me ask around though, I have lots of family in Canada.
My two cents on the desi-desi breakup. First of all, it is still rare guys...and gals.
Its rising. My parents are from the "greatest generation," the one that came in the 60s, before there were little indias to walk into and bollywood movies available on demand :) and among them very many women in particular have said 'i've spent a life being a good indian wife and mother, ive done my duty, its time to move on, to find out with romance is really like, what making love for real is like,' etc.
you can see from amitabh's comments that even for a two gen the bias in marriage is strongly in favor of males (patriarchy) so i feel sorry for unhappy ladies who know only people within the ghetto of their extended family or subculture (like Punjabis or Tamils). it helps to make friends widely, among other desi communities, and among americans too, so that if you decide to leave you will have support, because most women within your ghetto will be too chicken to think that way :)
And some of the happiest marriages ive seen are second time older desi go-arounds, the happiness, the love, the relief, is palpable.
Risible - joke about the arrangement, man - my mom would kill me!
Amitabh - I respect you too, as you always treat your fellow commenters with kindness and consideration. I do think, however, that you have some very conservative ideas. What's not to approve, for example, when a middle-aged desi divorcee, like my mom, decides not to give up on happiness and life but to give dating a try? Frankly, for me her courage and spirit are breathtaking, given all of the disapproval and psychological baggage she has had to overcome. She was miserable in her arranged marriage with my father, and I strongly approve her, yes, in her belief that there is someone out there for her, and her active efforts to find this person. I do not understand why this would not be approved by someone as evidently kindhearted as you. Is she supposed to commit some sort of emotional sati, and burn in silence for the rest of her life?
Priya - Agreed. I've seen this attitude directed at women in my own family, which is highly educated and not from the boondocks (the particular branch I am thinking of is located in Mumbai).
"Priya, some of the things you mention simply do not happen in today's India-at least among the educated. 20 years ago yes maybe. I doubt you are talking about people from the talukas here."
My experiences are limited to the first generations Indians (outside of India) that I have come into contact with. And I can definitely tell you that those ideas still exist among their parents, and they are pretty strong. I do believe that the level of influence these attitudes have on the children has somewhat been reduced because the next generation concentrates a bit more on individuality, rather than doing somethign for the sake of pleasing their parents and keeping the peace.
As for the situation I spoke about, well I know the family very well and I know both sides of the story, I'm not in the habit of indulging in heresay myself :)
Not to disparage the quest for true love, I am reminded of a scene from Fiddler on the Roof. The old farmer is confused when he finds out that one of his daughters is, you guessed it, in love. Wondering what this thing called love is, he very meekly asks his wife if she loves him. To which his wife replies, "For all these years, I have cooked for him, cleaned for him, bore him children... and he still asks me if I love him."
This scene from Fiddler epitomizes the concept of marriage among the first-geners, of which I am a card carrying member. Aside from some really bad and brutal situations from which the victim, whether the woman or the man, must escape because it is definitely not love, I don't know if love is anything more - or less - than what the poor Russian peasant said in that song from Fiddler.
But don't take my word for it. My only expertise on the subject of love comes from a happy marriage that is now going on 34 years to a woman who can cook, clean and fire one of our managers at our company with equal ease. No docile Indian woman here.
"I put very little credence on hearsay. You only report the woman's point of view here. The man would have a totally different take on why the marriage collapsed. As Confucius said "In the middle lies the truth"."
The situation I brought up was not intended to discuss the reasons for the break up of the marriage, but rather the attitude of the lady's parents. My point is that the parents (who by the way are highly educated) should provide the support the woman needs to be able to survive on her own. If she finds a life partner along the way, then good and well. But the focus was on getting her married off ASAP after the divorce came through. Marriages break up for many different reasons, and when this happens both parties are goign to have to deal with trauma that comes with such a difficult situation. People need time to work through it and to finally move on when they are ready to do so. Indian society tends to have this idea that women cannot survive on their own, and that a woman needs a husband to be able to survive. That idea is still very much prevalent, even among highly educated people.
Because of the stigma attached to divorce, not to mention economic difficulties, and trouble among family members, most desi women - especially IBDs (FOB's a horrible term, really) - do not get out unless the situation has been brutal and unbearable.
Dharma Queen,
I'm fairly new to the site, so I am not familiar with all the abbreviations used....what does IBD and FOB stand for? :)
Priya,
IBD - Indian Born Desi
FOB - Fresh off the Boat
ABD - American Born Desi
ahhh, thank you very much!
Floridian, even the Russian dude could tell that there was something strange and wonderful in what his daughter felt that he missed out on. Hence his grudging approval of the match. Sounds like you were lucky enough to find the same thing, someone whose spirit you admire - not just someone who cooks, cleans and bears your children.