kuppai?

oh, and i'm on the road tonight and tomorrow. everyone enjoy the color-wars! peace out >8-)

Kuppai = trash. Learn some Tamil already, yaar!

"Chaiyya Chaiyya" was also used in the opening credits of Inside Man.

I think.

That was definitely Chaiya Chaiya on the premiere of Smith- although it was very oddly placed, and might be the only thing about the show I enjoyed (ok, fine, there was a lot of eye candy as well).

Well..she looks ugly by "Indian standards".

There's no need to have a color-tussle although it seems unforuntately possible.

But, Major Props to Anchal's sentiment. I think its needed and true. I think most Indian people would feel better about themselves if dark skin was valued in our community. The majority of us live along a color spectrum we don't seem to value as highly as the exceptions on one end. Thats a recipe for poor self image. Its our call; accept ourselves and fight to love ourselves if need be, or play a frank charade by which most of us deny what we see in the mirror everyday as reality, and hope we are "mistaken" for someone else. Sorry, thats just an opinion, subject to change through introspection

stay brown, and proud!

(ok, gone for real)

"Chaiyya Chaiyya" was also used in the opening credits of Inside Man.

I think

it did... my frieds and i were initially confused, then were grooving in our seats :)

Conversely, the only personal features I find appealing are my brown skin and black eyes.

hmm, there are actually two other ones if u look closely:) the dark skin plus the caucasian features are appealing.

well i guess u don't have to look closely:)

#10 and #11. oops, idiot that comment was referring to yourself.

Actually a lot of Indian models who have made it big are as brown as they come. Noyonika Chatterjee (mesmerising curls!) , Sheetal Mallar, Madhu Sapre etc. have ruled the indian runways at some point in time. But it looks like a schism has developed between the fashion and movie/advertising worlds. More about that over here.

I opened this thread with some trepidation, but did expect to see one or two comments on how hot this chick is (similar to the ones re Salman's bit o crumpet). Their absence perhaps speaks more loudly than any violent argument about colour. Alas.

By every standard, this one's a bit o crumpet too - so why the silence? Is there something I, as a mere female, am missing? Or does it just boil down to her being dark?

Her hair sucks. Cut it, Please.

she is fine as hell. The blue contacts have got to go, but damn.

Well- *I* noticed while watching ATM the other night, that anchal is the only girl with a FIGURE. She had boobs, and even a little bit of junk in the trunk. Comparitively, i find it immensely annoying that all the other girls have stick thin figures - (perpetuating bulimia and too skinny culture of the "Feed Lindsay and Ricci" era). It's good to see the desi woman keeping it real with the curves. And oh, did you see the clip for next week when her inner bitch comes out and she hangs up the girls phone- I like her already.

BUT WHY with the contacts? They make her look weird. I wonder if they'll make her take them out as we progress. You know how Jay and Tyra get.

Is there an expectation that the way to gauge whether an adult finds someone attractive is if they type the word "hawt" ???

Wow, she's smokin'...! Agree with Taz, she's got sweeet booty and the lovely chocolate complexion to boot. She needs to lose the lenses, though - that just makes her eyes look weird.

Ahem, o great arbiter of "Indian Standards", you gotta get your eyes examined. The sista's a hottie by any standards.

I am going to bet anything that Tyra's going make Anchal cut her hair in the "makeover episode."

My favorite part of the episode was when Tyra turns to Nigel Barker, who is half Sri-Lankan, and says something to the effect of, "You're Indian; you know what she's talking about."

Speaking of Indian standards, the 2006 Miss India is oh so deliciously brown: Natasha Suri.

so why the silence? Is there something I, as a mere female, am missing? Or does it just boil down to her being dark?

Why the need for validation and I think you are being offended too soon. You want people to call her hot just cause shes dark? She has flawless skin and I love the even brown tone (a prereq for models) but I dont find her attractive. Something about the structure of her body and I can't stand pretty much all the other skinny chicks on there so its obviously not that. The world of modeling is rigorous and a model really needs to be versatile. At the end of the day its more about how you portray whatever look you are peddling whether its makeup, hair or clothes and less about the actual face or even the tone of your skin. If African models can make it in the business I don't see any reason why someone with her beautiful skin tone can't.

I think most Indian people would feel better about themselves if dark skin was valued in our community

its kind of weird but all indian celebrities in america are actually dark

k penn, parminder nagra in ER, that dude from heroes tv show, and almost every other guy or girl....

its as if ghoras beleive that all indians are dark, or maybe only darker indians are getting into show business...

anyway i was just trying to say that in american media, desis portrayed in general are pretty dark

not that anything is wrong with that at all...

so yeah.. even if dark skin might not be valued in our community... it appears that it is certainly valued in the amerika :-)

that 'Chaiyya Chaiyya' bit also caught my attention...

Nothing wrong with the skin color at all. She has beautiful skin. But the face...eh...not very inviting. Nice figure oui, but I wouldn't approach her at a party. Her facial features might be nice for modeling but that don't make you pretty. Rest easy girls.

its kind of weird but all indian celebrities in america are actually dark

Infact most of the American born desis are a little bit on the darker side (when compared to their indian born counterparts)..be it punjabi, gujarati, tamil, marathi etc. I know that I'm sounding quite un-PC ...apologies ...but I always had this question. What might be the reason for this ?

I'm sorry, but Anchal is foinne as HELL! No von Mises, I agree with you that see has beautiful skin, but we have to agree to disagree with everything else. She has curves, face and hair. The woman is fine as all outdoors.

If you don't want to approach her, that's perfectly fine...because I most certainly will.

Infact most of the American born desis are a little bit on the darker side (when compared to their indian born counterparts)..be it punjabi, gujarati, tamil, marathi etc. I know that I'm sounding quite un-PC ...apologies ...but I always had this question. What might be the reason for this ?

I believe this is because we spend more time outdoors and are not as obsessed with being lightskinned. How many Indians in India actaully enjoy going trekking, camping, swimming etc. Especially Indian women. I know I love the sun and being outdoors, but none of my cousins in India do.

brown_fob:

Infact most of the American born desis are a little bit on the darker side (when compared to their indian born counterparts)..be it punjabi, gujarati, tamil, marathi etc. I know that I'm sounding quite un-PC ...apologies ...but I always had this question. What might be the reason for this ?

I really haven't observed this. Maybe its because you subconsciously contrast them to the white people around. A bit like that one-hand-in-cold-other-hand-in-warm-water experiment.

How many Indians in India actaully enjoy going trekking, camping, swimming etc.

A lot, a lot the ones who can afford. Another, lot of them struggle for the daily roti (bread) as that is of paramount importance.

In places like Gangotiri (in the Lesser-Middle Himalayas), trekkers have littered the place all over. I knew girls who did pretty tough treks in Himalayas.

Don't forget, the largest mountain chain on the face of the earth is in India/ Nepal - the mighty Himalayas. People live there - like in Leh, they trek day in, day out. Most of the sherpas in Nepal are women. They are the toughest climbers on the face of the earth.

but I always had this question. What might be the reason for this ?
brown_fob, it is very simple that you have a larger sampling in India compared to USA, 1 billion to 2.5 million of Indian/ South Asian ethinicity, that's all. With billion people, larger number of any given complexion is present. Other thing is the background, in USA, you have a broader spectrum of complexion due whole mix of ethnicities from all othe over the world, so minor differences are not noticble to you. In India, the bandwidth is smaller, so minor differences stand out.

I do not know where you are from, if you are a Kashmiri, then your majority complexion seen in your home is different compared to America, where are seeing immigrants from all over India/ Pakistan/ Bangladesh/ Nepal.

BadIndianGirl's explanation sounds pretty good. Kush, the number of people who hike is really small (for whatever reason) , don't you think?

I really haven't observed this. Maybe its because you subconsciously contrast them to the white people around. A bit like that one-hand-in-cold-other-hand-in-warm-water experiment.

It seems true among the celebs. In India, being dark would pretty much rule you out of celebritydom. Among common people, I doubt it's because of contrasting with white people. I'm proposing a rather baseless theory that it's because the well-to-do and the light-skinned intersect a lot in India, whereas most ABD's of all colors are "well-to-do" atleast to the eye of the newly arrived. So, if you were had a fairly upper class (economically) life in India, you'd find your immediate environment in the US populated by a greater percentage of dark desis.

However, I'm sure that when you look at the whole desi population in the US vs. whole pop. in the old country, the latter will, on an average, be darker.

Kurma,

I agree really a small percentage hike in India as it is an upper middle class undertaking. No doubt.

However, why do we forget a woman in a village is outdoors all the time - farming, getting water from the well. Also, a poor urban woman on construction sites. Judging India from your cousin Bublee/ Guddi/ Pinky's behavior (as BadIndianGirl was doing) is highly errorneous (as majority of Indians are not urbanizued middle class yet).

We are also forgetting that significant population in India lives in lesser-middle Himalayas from stretching from Ladakh to Sikkim. They are really tough people.

She's very good looking, great figure, features, bone structure, everything. The hair is disproportionately long though, and drowns out her more delicate face - she needs an Aishwarya-length mane instead. Hate the coloured contacts and the pale frostly mauve lipstick - ewww. Wear makeup that suits you, girl, not some idealized J.Lo stuff.

Interesting observation that Indian celebs in the US tend to be on the darker side - I don't know if it really is true, but it's plausible (though I don't think of Parminder as darker than average). Perhaps it's because if producers want a "distinctly" Indian character, they want someone who is as different-looking from Joe WASP as possible. I was watching a film that had Shiney Ahuja in it with a friend last night, and while I think Shiney is as Panju-looking as they come, said friend thought he "didn't look Indian." I'm sure the perception of what "Indian" looks like depends on whether you've met mostly south or north Indians. I wonder what the proportion of South to North Indians is in the States.

Kurma:

BadIndianGirl's explanation sounds pretty good.

I disagree. For one, the US sun is very benign in terms of intensity compared to the US. Texas, for example, is considered extremely hot by US standards, but by Indian standards it is well near the median. The latitude of South Texas is approximately that of Delhi, so the Sun hits far more directly in most of India.

Secondly, most Americans I know do not see much of the sun on an average day. Its usually into the car, to the office, back in the car, and home. Its a lot harder to avoid the sun in India. People don't have cars, public transport is messy, marketplaces are open(though there are a few malls now). Those who hike/camp catch some sun, but how much will it be really? Maybe 4-5 hrs every other weekend? Thats really not much.

I really haven't observed this. Maybe its because you subconsciously contrast them to the white people around.

In India, being dark would pretty much rule you out of celebritydom.

statistics indicate that she is foine.

What a bunch of hypocrites on this thread. Of course, lead by our very own brown_fob. I think I speak for a substantial chunk of the male population when I say Anchal is super-hot. All the talk about dark and light-skinned desis is a bunch of BS.

JOAT - take a hike. I didn't suggest she should be found attractive cuz she's dark. I suggested that despite the fact she's obviously hot there was a strange silence on the fact (when I entered the thread) in comparison to, say, the one on Salman's tartlet - a silence which might be attributable to the fact that Anchal's dark.

I think ABDs tend to be slightly ligher than the desis in India because the Sun is not as harsh here as it is in India. Hell, in most places the Sun doesnt come out as much and for as many days as it does in India.

Dharma Queen (#38):

I suggested that despite the fact she's obviously hot there was a strange silence on the fact (when I entered the thread) in comparison to, say, the one on Salman's tartlet - a silence which might be attributable to the fact that Anchal's dark.

It's a weekend. The cats are on the prowl. They'll be back with a vengeance on Sunday or Monday, fresh off their frustrating weekend.

Dharma Queen:

If by Salman's tartlet you mean Katrina Kaif (I'm not sure which earlier thread you're referring to), are you suggesting that Anchal is even remotely (like even 1%) as gorgeous as Katrina? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I don't think Anchal is hot personally (I hope she doesn't read SM), obviously some people find her good-looking, but I think there are some pretty clear-cut cases where there's just no comparison to be made...unless you're Anchal's mom (who probably would also agree that Katrina is way hotter).

All the talk about dark and light-skinned desis is a bunch of BS

I'm with you on that one. Hello we are a brown race in case anyone hasn't noticed. The average person walking down the street in any major city in India IS dark. WHY do we question why the average person in the US is dark??? Why do we even bring up the color issue. It's irritating as shit. And Kal Penn, Nagra and Mr Hero AREN'T abnormally darker than any other Indians, they look like any other average Indian walking down the street in India.

And DQ you need to get a grip on yourself. Getting all flustered about why people aren't appreciating her when obviously according to you they should be and because she's dark is bullshit. That sounds too much like some people that make noise that they aren't getting hired because of racism when it's quite possible they simply aren't competent.

JOAT,
I respectfully disagree. The average ABD may be darker than the average urban Indian. This is very much due to the fact that ABDs are much more fitness conscious. They hike, run, jog a lot more than their counterparts in India. In other words, they spend more time outdoors. The urban Indian tries to avoid the outdoors if at all possible.
The average ABD also looks leaner and fitter. Have you seen the paunches on some of the affluent males in Delhi/Mumbai? ABDs also seem to have better skin tone and less fat on their faces and necks. I don't know if this is due to a different diet.

DesiDawg I simply disagree. I see the same brown people everywhere, we arent talking about fitness or skinny/fat I'm talking about simply the color of our skin. We have better skin/hair here than our counterparts in India but the color of the skin, the average Indian is as dark as we are and I lived there nearly half my life.

I just find the whole discussion of who is more darker irritating to say the least. We are a dark race why is it even discussed? I wonder if Asians discuss their eyes the way we discuss the color of our skin. And this happens in all Indian forums. It is what it is, what is there to discuss? Its not like we are a white race to talk about "abnormalities".

I remember seeing this one 50s era B-grade American film about Anglo Indians living in India. At one point the main character, an adolescentish girl, is like, "Mummy, I am going out," and Mummy is like, "You are going out in the mid day sun? But you will get dark...".

At that, she jumps on the back of a friend's bike (I may be making that part up), waves good bye to Mummy, and unfurls the most memorable line of an otherwise forgettable movie (and one that deserves quoting far and wide) - "It's not the sun that makes us brown!"

Take that, Fair&Lowely!

JOAT,
Notice that I said that the average ABD may be darker than the average urban Indian. Just as I think the average rural Indian is much darker than the average urban Indian. Just a function of who spends how much time outdoors not to mention who spends more on "Fair and Lovely"/ "Fair and Handsome" skin whitening creams.

In any case, these are just my personal perceptions with no scientific evidence to back this up.

Skin color is a national obsession in India-note the numebr of beauty salons offering skin bleach treatments/skin lightening laser treatments. Not to mention the continuous bombardment of ads touting fairer skin as a pathway to a better husband/wife, a better job.

You may find it all irritating but that's just the way Indian society is.

DesiDawg I get your point. I just find that despite living in the west we are still obsessed with this issue. I know the "whitening" business is huge business in India and don't think it's going to go away anytime soon. I recently met someone who was as dark as me but had blond hairy arms and a blond hairy face. It was not attractive to say the least.

The average ABD is probably a little lighter (again, only to indian eyes) than his ethnic kin from gujarat or andhra or wherever his/family hails from. However, being that there are a disproportionate amount of indians here from gujarat and south india, the average ABD is noticeably darker than the average delhi punjabi or marwari. I am Indian born and was told by a number of white Floridians that I don't look Indian, although I feel like I look like a very stereotypical punjabi brahmin. In India the range of phenotypes we consider "indian looking" is a lot broader than for the largely dark gujjus and southies here.

Secondly, Ms. Joseph's color is fine; what I don't like about her is her chapati shaped face which lacks angles and is just wayyy too round.

Desidawg, Joat etc -

No ..I'm not a hypocrite and I have no axe to grind. I'm as brown and as "Indian" as anyone out there. You may find my question "irritating" but that's just you. I'm not afraid of discussing "touchy" issues.
I've been in the US for well over 6 years now..and my sample space isn't that small.

Kush - I'm not from Kashmir. I'm from the Hindi-speaking region..cow belt..and I've been all over India.

Vivek, LOL.

Amitabh, you caught me. I'm Anchal's Mom. Don't diss my baby.

JOAT, take a hike. Twice. It is slightly weird, to say the least, when a thread on a girl with Anchal's hourglass figure, youth, gorgeous hair etc doesn't get any catcalls from the males on SM. While she may not be everybody's favorite dish, she's got to be a few people's. You're the one jumping to conclusions that I'm jumping to conclusions.

Anand,
Very interesting and profound statement indeed. Especially the part where you criticize an aspiring participant for her "chapati like face".
Maybe you would be so kind so as to put a picture of yourself on this blog. I would be surprised if you receive any charitable comments on your face and physique.

IMHO, she's totally da bomb. Maybe she should wear a different top?

DesiDawg so according to you the only people who can criticize beautiful people are those that are prettier or more perfect? And if someone is attractive to one they have to be attractive to another? Am I reading you right or you wouldn't be asking Anand to post his picture?

I think out of the entire models on this season of America's Next Top Model, Anchal is the only one who has a chance. Her bone structure is amazing. But her body may be too curvacious for today's standards of modeling. Which of course is unfortunate and dumb.

As to the beauty standards in India, there is a double standard there. Commercial models are fair-skinned and dainty. Runway models are more dusky and curvacious today. Of course, Ms. Aish Rai didn't help the situation when she advertises for lightening skin products for Loreal in India. Yet on Oprah she argues the lightening skin is wrong. Which is it, Miss Rai???

Ms. Aish Rai didn't help the situation when she advertises for lightening skin products for Loreal in India.

Hey really? Id like to know more. Does anyone know how I can find Indian ads on the web?? Irrespective of what she stated on Oprah if she's peddling "whitening" stuff in India I'd be seriously disgusted. She of all people who doesn't need any more money should seriously consider some social responsibility towards not perpetuating the white craze in India.

JOAT,
I am all for criticism. However, where does one draw the line between uncalled for mean behavior and fair critique? I think saying that someone's face is round like a chapati does cross the line.

Full Disclosure: I am not Anchal's mom :-)

Secondly, I agree with you that all this discussion about dark and light is BS. That's why I say it's based on fitness, outdoorsy behavior, lighteneing creams etc etc. Maybe you did not read my initial post.

I am not a male model, but just as I can criticize a pro athlete's performance despite being over six feet two inches tall and weighing 160 lbs myself, I can be a man with a large nose and glasses and criticize an aspirant to be a supermodel.

Personally I am getting really annoyed by people getting their panties in a bunch when other exhibit a strong preference for fair skin or any physical attribute. Listen up people, you are not born with a right to be considered beautiful. There is no law that requires equal appreciation of fair skin , dark skin, fat face, skinny legs or whatever. I don't think there is any conspiracy against dark skinned people either; if dark skinned people were indeed as desirable as fair skinned folks then sexual attraction would overpower any feeble attempt to keep the dark folks down. The preference exists because it is rooted in biology, just as there is a biological preference for tall muscular men over short and fat or short and skinny men. Deal with it and move on with life.
I think if all ethnic groups had the exact same proportion of skin colors and body types, there would not be all this wailing and gnashing. Its because the proportional distribution of phenotypes varies across the world that this issue takes on such emotional and political overtones. Let it go people, accept who you are, accept other people's estimation of your looks and just live your life !

She da bomb diggity fo sho.

Ooooh I am so impressed now. The esteemed professor Anand has used the term phenotype in his posting. Just throw in a couple of irrelevant high school biology terms in the mix and you are now suddenly the world's expert on genetics and indeed sexual psychology.

And oh, I so love the way the post ends with an exclamation mark. Like it's the end of a profound and far reaching argument.

One of Aish's "whitening" ads....may take a while to find the Loreal one. The one below is her latest Lux soap ad. (click on the picture to read the text!)

http://www.ashforever.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=606&pos=1

Desidawg:

I sense some resentment in your post; are you one of those ABDs who fell through the model minority cracks and failed high school biology or something ? Its well known around the world how abysmal the American public school system is, but Indians have typically not been affected by it. Maybe your deep suspicion of english grammar and biological terms is just a reflection of your more typical american high school performance.

Amitabh,

If by Salman's tartlet you mean Katrina Kaif

I believe that your friend is referring to the recent discussions about Padma Lakshmi, Salman Rushdie's partner.

Anand - Yeah right, there's a biological preference for light skin. Hence the physical repulsion of white masters for their black slaves, the dislike of black men by white women everywhere, the freedom of Indian maids from sexual harassment by their Saudi employers, the stereotype of the sexy pasty-faced Northern European as opposed to the non-sexy Mediterranean etc etc etc. The evidence for your theory is overwhelming. NOT.

The biological preference you refer to is bunkum. Now the social preference is another matter.

Aish's Loreal White Perfect Ad: (yes, the name is disgusting!)

http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-28,RNWE:en&q=%22white%20perfect%22%20aishwarya&sa=N&tab=wi

Anand with your irrelevant last post you have proved once again that you are a troll. Further postings shall not be dignified with a response.

Dharma queen:
You are also confusing rape with sexual attraction. Sexual violence is a form of control and domination. The rape you mentioned in Saudi Arabia or the American South is similar in nature to prison rapes where the urge to dominate and control is the motivating force and not sexual attraction. The proportion of white women married to black men is infitesimal. Typically it is the least desirable of white women who marry or date black men as can be clearly seen in the shopping malls in America. Finally the intra-European stereotypes you mentioned go both ways. Mediteranneans are indeed sometimes stereotyped as sultry with anglos considered pasty. However, mediteranneans are also often stereotyped as short and pudgy and swarthy in contrast with the tall willowy and aristocratic "nordic" (danny devito and schwarzenegger in Twins). There are some exceptions to the general preference for fairer skinned people such as Heidi Klum and Boris Becker, but thats why they generate so much buzz, because they are an exception to the general rule. Human behavior is indeed an interesting phenomenon to watch.

i'd need to wake up beside her and see how she fares after a long night of wiggles and wriggles. she could be one of those models who's a borderline CHUDAIL.

oh, and didn't know about Katrina Kaif until you mentioned her, Amitbah. *droooool*

you are not bo

rn with a right to be considered beautifu>

well said Anand. The thing is this type of physical preference is common among every culture. The oriental ppl for instance prefer big round eyes(inspite the fact that vast majority of those ppl don't have it). I really don't see any chinese girl gettin on prime time tv and complain about how she is preceived in her community. It doubly reeks when she talks about making a statement about the color of her skin being beautiful... yet lets change the color of the eyes. Kindo hypocritical. Lets call her for what she is... a superficial dudedtte with possibly low self esteem and little future trying to do what she can to get some sympathy and attention. I believe she has succeded in the attention part... and sympathy might come from Tyra Banks(which probably was the point).

AC,

I've mentioned Katrina Kaif a couple of times before on SM (you probably missed those comments as you were no doubt busy with more antics involving Pinky).

Amitabh's right on the money about her. Very nice indeed. Salman (Khan, not Rushdie) is a very lucky guy.

I always suspect that the colorists are also racists, and probably homophobes and sexists as well...Anand's comment about white women and blacks certainly confirms this. You need to get out more, Anand. In my city, there is a very large proportion of interracial couples, many of whom are attractive middle class whites with attractive middle class blacks. Tell me, how do Indians fit into this complexion-determined scale of attractiveness you've set up in your rather sad little world? Let me guess - the fair ones are just able to snag the uglier whiteys, right? Because snagging Whitey is what they so desperately want to do?

Lets call her for what she is... a superficial dudedtte with possibly low self esteem and little future trying to do what she can to get some sympathy and attention. I believe she has succeded in the attention part... and sympathy might come from Tyra Banks(which probably was the point).

Hold your horses there buddy. Without knowing her or anything about here, to call her sueprficial now that was very judgemental of you.

By the same token we all work at gas-stations, 7-11s or drive cabs right?

Chitowndesi,

East Asians favouring big eyes is a modern phenomenon. In Sei Shonagan's Pillow Book, for instance, the favoured eye is the most pronouncedly East Asian of all - extremely narrow and long, with no fold. Old Chinese and Japanese pictures depict heroes and heroines with just such eyes. The big-eye trend (and the accompanying desire for lid surgery) is most probably the result of exposure to Western (read white) beauty ideals.

dharma queen:

I have no interest in being a "racist" (meaning hating people because of their color) but I do believe in honesty. Perhaps you live in some exceptional city in America. I live in New York City and the VAST majority of white women who pair with black men are what would be considered unattractive in the US. By that I mean they are overweight, and of very homely countenance. I am not implying a hierarchy nor am I implying that this preference for fair skin is iron clad and absolute; however, it is present as a general rule. There are occassional exceptions but for the most part, all else being reasonably equal, fair skinned people, especially women, are preferred over their darker skinned counterparts as sexual partners. This exists in india, the middle east, among the japanese and this phenomenon is simply too pervasive to be explained by a few generations of relatively superficial western dominance. Even among the whites, there is a distict preference for fair haired women.
You, and a lot of ABDs who discuss this issue, sound really bitter and seem to have some sort of emotional investment in this issue. I don't know what it is but t seems like some kind of childish necessity to disparage those characteristics that are appreciated but that you may not possess yourself.

Anand,

Has the possibility struck you that the preference for fair skin you consistently observe may stem from socio-economic reasons and not from biological ones?

I live in Montreal. We tend not to have racial/ethnic ghettoes in Canada, with a few exceptions - in any case, I think it's fair to say that the stratification between classes is not nearly so severe here as in the States. And in my city, you consistently observe the crossing of the color/complexion line without class implications (ie mediocre black chick with hot French guy).

Lastly, the crack about a personal axe to grind is a cheap one, and oft repeated by those who sense their arguments to be weak. It can't be warded off without ridiculous measures (ie I'm hot! I'm really hot!) so I won't bother.

dharma queen:

I think you and many others who share your belief that non-western people found their own features just beautiful and then along came the white man who defeated them and controlled their minds are crediting the white man with a lot more power than he actually has. Could it remotely be possible that all humans find some western-ish features to be more beautiful and that once exposed to it they find it better than their own features ? You never know with human behavior. In the case of Japan, who have competed with the western world on an equal footing since the 19th century and have outclassed america in many industries, there is no reason for them to want to look american because of being the submissive party. It might just be that some wstern traits like round eyes and fair skin are basically appealing to humans around the world. On the other hand, some western traits among women such as large bones, and wrinkled skin at a young age are not. Once again dharma queen, deal with it.

Aish's Loreal White Perfect Ad: (yes, the name is disgusting!)

Thanx Notkissed. I'm just sitting here with my mouth open. Wow. This is definitely something to yak about at work.

BTW since when are interracial couples the norm? Even in a big city like NYC they have only become more visible in the past 10 years or so. Racial divides in the meantime still exist in the rest of the US.

And are we confusing the issue of race versus color of skin?? My friend Stacey is black but about 10 shades lighter skinned than me. She's still black and I'm still Indian. We are still two different races which have cultural differences that are more in play in a relationship between two people than simply the color of their skin.

This is a curiously american concept of calling someone with 1 black great grandparent as black. I know this stems from the one drop rule, but it makes some Indians look ridiculous, especially the dark ones who like to claim they are "Aryans" or "Caucasians" when in fact they are much darker than people considered black in America. Indians are very good at weaving tangled webs of pride and emotion when confronted with blunt cold reality.

It's quite surprising that the families of quite a lot of people posting here are so colour-obsessed. Is this a rural-vs-cosmopolitan thing, or generational?

You can't blame Caucasians for traditional concepts of beauty around the world. Beauty has always been defined by what is rare in a society. In East Asia, big eyes, plump cheeks and fair skin are beautiful because 1) it is not common and 2)a plump body and fair skin meant that women/men were of the upper class (they didnt work outside, hence lighter skin and had access to food). This concept of beauty used to be part of old European society as well, but there is no correlation between the two.

Of course now Caucasians want to be thin and dusky. Asians still define beauty by fairness but the plump part is somewhat out.

Societal beauty is just what you are not.

Anand,

You have not addressed the following: The Japanese and other East Asians did find extremely narrow, long eyes, and small noses, desirable - prior to contact with whites. Many black tribes consider that the blacker the skin, the more beautiful. If I am not mistaken, there were traditional skin-blackening agents used by many African women. Now urban, middle-class Africans find light-skinned, European looking African-Americans to be their ideal. It's called the colonization of the mind.

And while the Japanese might have competed on an economic level with the West, Japan has, since the second World War, been under the thumb of the West in terms of any real power. Besides which, being the one successful Asian nation does not automatically make the Japanese free from the insecurity of the powerless - any more than being the only successful minority in a room full of white people makes you more likely to love your non-whiteness.

This is a curiously american concept of calling someone with 1 black great grandparent as black.

This does not happen.

Notkissed,
In East Asia, 'big eyes' were not traditionally viewed as beautiful - long, narrow eyes were.

East Asians favouring big eyes is a modern phenomenon. In Sei Shonagan's Pillow Book, for instance, the favoured eye is the most pronouncedly East Asian of all - extremely narrow and long, with no fold. Old Chinese and Japanese pictures depict heroes and heroines with just such eyes. The big-eye trend (and the accompanying desire for lid surgery) is most probably the result of exposure to Western (read white) beauty ideals.

I'm sure u get my point. Which is that every culture has its own idea of physical beauty. I can care less what the reasons for those are, but they exist everywhere. Whether its oriental ppl prefering round eyes, white ppl prefering blue eyes and blond hair with tan olive skin, there is a preference. You don't see ppl of those culture going around saying "my ppl are bad racist judgemental and don't like me because I don't have those features and I want to prove them wrong."

Hold your horses there buddy. Without knowing her or anything about here, to call her sueprficial now that was very judgemental of you.

yep don't know her, but have read enough to make an opinion. And these were all my personal observation/opinion.

By the same token we all work at gas-stations, 7-11s or drive cabs right?

19yo sales clerk.. not in school i presume, a true winner here!!

she is hot tho

Why is everyone letting Anand get away with the blatantly racist 'only ugly white women pair up with black men' line? The guy's a bigot.

Jai: I totally didn't make the Padma Lakshmi connection...I was thinking Salman Khan, not Rushdie. I think Padma is far from hot too...Now Katrina...well, see below (you too AC).

http://gallery.techarena.in/showphoto.php/photo/7966

DQ just tell us what to type and when to type it and that'll be that. You let us know when A) ogling is good B) when its bad C) who to yell at next

:-)

You don't see ppl of those culture going around saying "my ppl are bad racist judgemental and don't like me because I don't have those features and I want to prove them wrong."

What about all the east asian men who are pissed that so many asian girls think white guys are where its at?

Now urban, middle-class Africans find light-skinned, European looking African-Americans to be their ideal.

There's a dearth of black men who prefer lighter skin. Most black women prefer very dark skinned men with stereotypically negroid features. And I say stereotypically because it is possible for black people who haven't been significantly mixed to have what people would consider caucasian features. Nadine is a good example. Anyway, black women used to only want lighter skinned men, but they are no longer popular.

dharma queen:

Is that the best you can come up with ? Screaming "racist" is a pretty poor debating technique. I have stated repeatedly that while there ARE exceptions, it is much more common for white women who are either unatractive by american aesthetic standards or lower class or both to pair up with black men.No one living in the western world is going to deny that.
Also, regarding your comment about the japanese, my point was that they maight have found asian eyes beautiful before encountering westerners, but it might be possible that after they met westerners, they started preferring rounder eyes because it might be that rounder eyes are ore agreeable to humans in general. Its just a hypothesis. And the relationship of east asians to americans and europeans is not nearly the same as that of nonwhites in america to american whites. The east asians defeated russia back in 1909, they defeated the brtish and the dutch soundly in WW2 and they gave america a far tougher fight than did the germans. The japanese also managed to trash america's electronics industry and car industries so they have no reason to feel inferior to the western world. Any western cultural attributes they adopt are purely out of their own volition, not the "colonization of the mind" crap you are spouting. It may just be that they now find rounder eyes better, and not because they feel inferior to americans. Even Indians, who have been dominated by the brtish for 200 years, do not find anglo-saxon beauty better than the homegrown fair skinned indian look, which existed and was put on a pedestal long before the brits came to india. You seem to be too much in awe of the white man and his alleged power to colonize minds and hearts. Get out of your little canuck existence and see the world a little. I am done with this senseless topic.
Cheers

I have stated repeatedly that while there ARE exceptions, it is much more common for white women who are either unatractive by american aesthetic standards or lower class or both to pair up with black men.No one living in the western world is going to deny that.

(DQ here I come, just for you my sweet)

Dharma Queen,

You make it sound like Asia was just this isolated place with no movement or travels until the Whites came along. This is vastly incorrect. Trade throughout Asia has happened for centuries. Arabs, Indians, Southeast Asians and East Asians have all traded with each other and in fact passed cultural and religious traditions.

Within China itself, there are so many ethnicities. Further West you go, you will encounter more Tibetan/Indian looking people. Further South, more Thai looking people. Further North, more Mongol looking people.

It wasn't like East Asians never saw a round eye before. You can't blame just Whites for this concept of beauty - there was migration and travels throughout Asia before the modern age.

Something about the structure of her body and I can't stand pretty much all the other skinny chicks on there so its obviously not that.

I'm with JOAT. She has that typically annoying model body. Her boobs are OK but she needs more junk in the trunk and her legs are way too skinny. Her face, while perfect, is almost too much so, like a manniquen, and somehow not sexy. i theorize that with so many gay men in the fashion industry, they've imposed their gay aesthetic on the female form, essentially de-sexualizing it by removing attributes men are genetically wired to lust: breasts, hips, and body fat (a secondary sexual characteristic).

the world would be a better place if we let beyonce and bipasha basu lead the way. I, for one, would love to be behind them.

What about all the east asian men who are pissed that so many asian girls think white guys are where its at?

I think its a different topic. More asian men are forced to be single because their counterparts don't prefer their looks. Lets call it sexual deprevation? Are darker indian girls deprived? My observation is no. Anchal might be doing just fine in that dept. lol

Can you really seperate historical factors from present-day factors without doing research? How are you going to determine whether someone's preference is due to something that happened to them 5 mintues ago, or something that happened in their culture 500 years ago? Why not focus on your own personal aesthetic preferences or historical information, if possible

Why is everyone letting Anand get away with the blatantly racist 'only ugly white women pair up with black men' line? The guy's a bigot.

In my experience, the above is not true...I've seen MANY gorgeous white women with black guys. Although I'm not a sociologist, my gut impression is that maybe 10 years ago (when white woman-black guy combos started becoming more noticeable), many of the white women were doing it to rebel, be wild, piss off their parents, etc. or because of certain alleged (but probably accurate) anatomical traits. But I think now they do it because they genuinely like/love the black guy they're with, and many of the said black guys are indeed polished, educated, stylish, and successful. And in my experience, white women in the good old USA are not racist or prejudiced when it comes to dating someone...if they find you attractive and fun to be with, they'll date you, period. Indian men included.

I'm with JOAT. She has that typically annoying model body. Her boobs are OK but she needs more junk in the trunk and her legs are way too skinny

To each their own, but her boobs are smoking and her body is fine - (all for you DQ)

Anand,

I live in the Western world (though judging from your disparaging comment about Canucks, you don't consider Canada part of it) and would absolutely deny your ridiculous claim that only ugly or poor white women pair up with blacks. And yes, making such a statement qualifies you as a bigot (not to mention the remark about the 'little Canuck existence').

Your inconsistency is mind boggling. So now you state that Indians prefer fair-skinned Indians, but do not like the even fairer Anglo-Saxon beauty - in stark contradiction to your previous hypothesis about fair skin being biologically preferred, period. You missed my point about the Japanese. They could trash the Americans/Europeans in various domains; that wouldn't keep them from being the only Asians in the 'club'. And as such, there might be an overwhelming desire to conform to the ideals of the club.

dq:
"would absolutely deny your ridiculous claim that only ugly or poor white women pair up with blacks"

Maybe you need to take the time to read harder...I said this is the case most of the time although there are exceptions.

My point about Indians was that the preference for fair skin was not absolute but general. That means there is a tendency for all else being equal, fair skin is preferred. In India, a fair indian girl IS typically preferred to a dark indian girl. A fair anglo girl wil not be preferred because all else is NOT equal; her fairness is too foreign looking and carries some cultural connotations that are at odds with typical indian ideals of femininity. On the other hand, I have noticed that some middle eastern and mediterannean girls get much more attention because their fairness more closely approximates indian fairness. Sexuality and physical attraction are too complex for crackpot women like yourselves to sanitize with your politically correct nonsense.

Chitowndesi,
Yes, I might have made it sound like Asians were like Native Americans, or something, and had no contact with whites prior to a certain time. Not what I meant to do - nor do I 'blame Whites'. I blame those who internalize ideals of beauty based on power dynamics or socio-economic factors, whoever they are. I do think many Asian cultures have adopted the ideals of Western nations because these nations have been dominant for a long time. Possibly, as they become less dominant, Asian cultures will go back to valuing those aspects of their own physiques which are unique to them (ie tilted long narrow eyes).

Nelly Furtado is hot

brown. 100. Rani Muhkerjee. Sex. Love. Intercourse. Colonialism. Liberation.
Fin

I think the Japanese are smart enough to relize that they will never be able to conform to the "club." They are in fact very conscious of being japanese, discourage immigration to japan and have no intention of slyly whitening themselves. Once again, you are putting a little too much trust in the power of whites to exert mind control over others. Did you grow up in some all white town where people called you paki or something ? I don't mean to be offensive but you seem to have this tremendous pre-occupation with skin colors, white people, and race and seem to have this view of whites as securely masters of the world with others in crouching servility and desperate to imitate the white folks.

Anand,
The personal attacks you make are very revealing - attacking my nationality, implying I have a personal axe to grind, calling me a 'crackpot woman'. This behaviour is not at all inconsistent with your bigotry, I'm afraid, and changing your statement about white-black pairings to include 'most' and not 'all' is a pathetic attempt at introducing nuance into your bigotry.

Japan belongs in the club

I think Dharma Queen and Anand need to get the sexual tension out of their systems, book a room and just do it!

LOL!

Anand,
You are the one who, servilely, believes white skin to be so desirable that hot black men will pair up with ugly and generally undesirable white women to have access to it. The only servility here is in your mindset.

RE: Don't forget, the largest mountain chain on the face of the earth is in India/ Nepal - the mighty Himalayas. People live there - like in Leh, they trek day in, day out. Most of the sherpas in Nepal are women. They are the toughest climbers on the face of the earth.

While I saw many women and children porters(for lack of a better word) along wtih men in Nepal, the vast majority of sherpas(guides) are men. The Nepalis do make a distinction between porters and sherpas. It was amazing the amount of weight they carry in their baskets(upwards of 130 lb) supported only by thin straps and a headband. Even some of the older children, let alone women, can carry more weight than the average in-shape westerner could, and climb at a fast pace. I agree though that Nepalis are truly the best climbers on Earth. Most just don't have resources to go around the world climbing mountains just beacause they are there.

An interesting experience for me was that I got better treatment as a brown tourist than the white tourists. Nepal is down with the dark skin.

I have mentioned that the preference is general and not absolute since the first post I made about the skin color issue.Go back and read harder. I think the bluntness of the debate is getting to you and since you are unable to withstand honest debate, you want to retreat to your politically correct bunker. Anyway, its is a fact that you are a woman, it is a fact that you are a "canuck" (hardly an "attack" on your nationality; no more than a "yank" is an american or a "brit" is an englishman), and your obsession with white people and their alleged power over the minds of millions of non-westerners is very bizarre and symptomatic of a "crackpot" or altered state of mind. You inhabit a very strange and easily offended world indeed full of mind control, desperate internalized images of colonialism..a very harrowing and odd world. I would definitely recommend that you get on some xanax or lithium.

the world would be a better place if we let beyonce and bipasha basu lead the way. I, for one, would love to be behind them.
LOL. Ain't that the truth? I never got it when people said Kate Winslet (image not entirely SFW) was fat.

Anand,

You've never seen DQ so you have no idea what she's like, so please stick to real arguements and not character attacks. Its unpleasent to watch.

My favorite part of the episode was when Tyra turns to Nigel Barker, who is half Sri-Lankan, and says something to the effect of, "You're Indian; you know what she's talking about."

pooja: that was my fave part too... had to rewind my tivo 3 times to make sure i understood her... tyra is a bimbo plain and simple or has no cajones... (aka when nicole ritchie was on her show--per the best week ever via vh1--and said 'why do people make fun of skinny people? we don't make fun of fat people' (tyra wore a fat suit once on her show..and was made fun of..but she didn't bother to cough that one up to ritchie)--anyhoot, bimbo or no bimbo, that girl has made an empire and has more moolah than most of us here... props to her people for that one! cha-ching!

Sahej
I am all for logic and reason, however DQ started this little personal battle when she said it was "bigoted" if you notice the fact that white women dating black men tend to be of the type not considered beautiful by mainstream America. I think the "racist" or "bigot" label gets thrown around a little too easily and most often by brittle people who can't handle a debate that offends their oh-so delicate sensibilities or disturbs the imaginary world they like to inhabit.

mi amore ma cherie my love meri jaan

Anand,

Maybe bigot is a word that is thrown around too frequently and I can see how someone would react to it. My apologies to you, as an uninvolved third party if you've been misaccused of bigotry. not having read your opinions in detail on this thread I can not say what I would think of your statements of course. But nonetheless, my apologies still at your offense

While I saw many women and children porters(for lack of a better word) along wtih men in Nepal, the vast majority of sherpas(guides) are men. The Nepalis do make a distinction between porters and sherpas.

Yes, I should have meant "many are women" too but it is a significant number if you are talking about world class climbers. Even in that category, they are significant number of sherpanis (a women sherpa). Even in an Everest climb, they are often carrying the load till the final summit (pen-ultimate stop). A lot of sherpas have summited Mt. Everest.

However, in a daily life, just working and carry load/ wood in farms, roadside, country side in Himalayas then - "most" shepras are women is not wrong. That was the jist of my argument for day to day life in Himalayas.

PS: I am using "sherpa" instead of "Sherpa" in my discussion. A Sherpa (with capital) is a race of Tibetan origin. Often sherpa = Sherpa but not always.

When women talk about looks they turn really evil and just point out the most meaningless flaws on each other. When guys talk about looks it comes down to will you bang her or not and call me dumb but the guys way of evaluating beauty is a much better way.

Which clip on the TV.com Smith site has the Chaiya Chaiya song on it?

An interesting experience for me was that I got better treatment as a brown tourist than the white tourists.

Chaiya Chaiya on opening credits in Inside Man:

ht