September 25, 2006
Allen's Cavalier remarks surfacePolitics
On Sunday Salon.com published a very provocative article about Sen. George Allen of “Macaca” fame (thanks for the tip Subodh and “Sparky”). To those people who have been defending him, including members of the Indian American Republican Council (IARC) and some Indian American business men in Virginia, I am sure this story will be of interest:
Three former college football teammates of Sen. George Allen say that the Virginia Republican repeatedly used an inflammatory racial epithet and demonstrated racist attitudes toward blacks during the early 1970s.
“Allen said he came to Virginia because he wanted to play football in a place where ‘blacks knew their place,’” said Dr. Ken Shelton, a white radiologist in North Carolina who played tight end for the University of Virginia football team when Allen was quarterback. “He used the N-word on a regular basis back then.”
A second white teammate, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he feared retribution from the Allen campaign, separately claimed that Allen used the word “nigger” to describe blacks. “It was so common with George when he was among his white friends. This is the terminology he used,” the teammate said.
A third white teammate contacted separately, who also spoke on condition of anonymity out of fear of being attacked by the Virginia senator, said he too remembers Allen using the word “nigger,” though he said he could not recall a specific conversation in which Allen used the term. “My impression of him was that he was a racist,” the third teammate said. [Link]
Here is one more tidbit:
Shelton said he also remembers a disturbing deer hunting trip with Allen on land that was owned by the family of Billy Lanahan, a wide receiver on the team. After they had killed a deer, Shelton said he remembers Allen asking Lanahan where the local black residents lived. Shelton said Allen then drove the three of them to that neighborhood with the severed head of the deer. “He proceeded to take the doe’s head and stuff it into a mailbox,” Shelton said. [Link]
I am interested of course in what these former teammates have to say about Allen as it has bearing on the whole “macaca” incident. However, I am equally blown away by how similar this is to when former Presidential candidate John Kerry got “swift-boated” during the 2004 campaign. At that time it was some of Kerry’s former Vietnam war comrades that cast aspersions on his character from their interaction with him decades before. Here it is Allen’s former teammates on the UVA Cavaliers. Are we about to see political karma played out before our eyes? Another Presidential hopeful’s ambitions thwarted? I am going to predict so. Many macacas are known for their belief in karma after all. :)
abhi on September 25, 2006 12:21 AM in News, Politics · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
I don't know that the swift-boat comparison will be complete until the following happen:
a) this starts getting run in anti-Allen ads funded by a nebulous 527
b) that 527 turns out to be funded by backers of Jim Webb
c) it turns out that the accusations made were almost certainly false.
Since in this case, the accusations fit in with the general CW about Allen's character, "c," at the very least, seems less likely to happen than it did in the swift-boat incident (where the accusations were completely out of left field).
Just to be clear I am only making a superficial comparison between the two. We all know that major media in the U.S. will only report on the superficial and that voters will probably also react to the superficial. If people really understood the shadiness behind the whole Swift-Boat affair then it wouldn't have affected Kerry's chances. The whole point is that people didn't care to look into it. Here, whether this turns out to be true (very probable) or motivated by shady interests won't matter and will have the same effect as it did on Kerry. I'm not going to complain. :)
interesting development, abhi. unless more people come forward, i doubt the MSM will give this too much play. In this way, perhaps the Juanita Broderick rape accusation against clinton (credible in my opinion, and i belived anita hill as well) is a better analogy. The MSM is more hesitant when it comes to "private" behaviour.
The swift boat vetrans's accusations or farenheit 911 accuastions were more public in nature and thus more easily became part of the public discouse.
But in the age of blogs and 527's, the MSM may not matter as much.
Manju, before the Blogosphere existed (as you mention at the end) you would have been right. Right now this is spreading like fire and will be among the top searches at Technocrati.com. If it wasn't for the leaked intelligence report about Iraq (which will be headline #1 for the rest of this week) this would be right near the top. Just watch the blogosphere do its thing :)
Some years ago a incident involving Hillary Clinton, supposedly making an anti-Jewish remark in the early 70s came to light. Her comments on the matter (in 2000):
Doesn't seem like her 2008 Presidential plans have been derailed by that.
Typical Vikram. Cite something from
leftright field that attacks the other side. Do you think an alleged off-hand remark is really relevant in a post about a deer's head being stuck in a black family's mailbox? I don't think so.Vikram:
the problem w/ the hillary clinton example is that the anti semitism charge is basicly a one-off. Bill, on the other hand, had muliple accuasations of sexual harrassment (kathleen willey, juanita broderick, paula jones) so the charge went furter, though i don't think it really stuck...he more or less remains a popular womanizer rather than a sexual predator.
Allen is more like bill, multiple incidents and one caught on tape.
Vikram: I think the issue is how the story plays into the already existing narrative. Other than folks with axes to grind, no one really thinks of HRC as anti-Semitic. Thus, the story doesn't fit in with the narrative, and gets dropped. Allen, on the other hand, has graciously allowed people to spread the "closet-racist" meme through, inter alia, his "macaca" comments. Thus, this story fits very nicely into the emerging Allen narrative, and thus will likely get more traction.
An equally lame comment. Why do right-wingers always have to bring in Bill Clinton's sex life anytime a Republican is on the ropes? It's kind of sad.
Nothing like a tu quoque fallacy (clumsily applied, at that) to brighten your day, I always say!
Brilliant. If you compile all of the comments Vikram has ever left on this blog the Tu Quoque slaps you across the face.
i didn't bring up his sex life. I bought up his alledged use of power against women (broderick, jones, willey) which is part of the public discourse. What he did w/ monica is of no interest to me. Read up on youe simone de beauvoir, abhi.
*Abhi (along with 100s of readers) rolls his eyes and shakes his head*
This story should be worth a couple of hundred Godfather parody Photoshops on fark.com...
Abhi, I just want to say that your sarcasm is making me laugh out loud. It's also highly satisfying to read. Ha!
Whether or not the deer's-head-in-the-mailbox story is for real, that painting was enough to make me break out in hives. I'm sort of hypnotized by it thought - the departure from reality, the eery nightmarish mood of it...the genius behind this is singlehandedly creating his/her own Theater of the More and More Absurd movement in the art world.
I was initially distracted by the bizarre expression on the youngest daughter's face and wondering whether the painter is just some sort of subversive who is all the more brilliant for getting the Allen family to pay for this act of lunacy. Then I looked at the television hovering above her head and noticed that it's on FOX. Some things are just too good to be true...
Sorry. I meant to say, "I'm sort of hypnotized by it though..."
I second Abhi's eye rolling.
Manju, you can't just type something and then five minutes later go 'Uh, nooo, I sooo didn't say that,' 'cos it's kinda there for everyone to see that you did. :)
Stick with it, brother, imagine if we had that sex crazed amoral maniac running the world's most powerful country right now? Oh no, we've got THE DEVIL instead :) Mwahahahahahahaha
I wonder what the choices for Indian-American Republicans and their organizations are. I suspect that many will dismiss these anecdotes as "youthful indiscretions" because GOP policy goals such as a strong defense and lower taxes mean more to them than the possibility that their Senator would have spat on them 30 years ago. Some in that crowd may even go so far as to condemn the man he was 30 years ago yet say that he's different now -- of course avoiding recent facts like the noose, the Confederate flag, voting against the civil rights act, opposing MLK day, and the macaca incident.
These macacas are the type of people that were Allen standing in front of them in a Klan robe handing out tax refunds, they'd call him sir, grab their money and then shuffle 'n jive for the crowd. News of racist incidents from 30 years ago won't change their minds one bit.
Brooklyn Brown I tend to agree with you. I want to state that the civil rights movement was not for most blacks, a campaign to get whites to like them. It was for access to education, employment, equal treatment under the law, housing etc. Many people who do not identify the church 'as being the vanguard of political/empowerment issues- can and do make the distinction between personality and politics. There are so called republican issues that [Blacks] endorse, but because of characters like Mr. Cavalier it makes one uncomfortable to embrace the Republican label.
There are so many dog whistles used that entrench and confuse class issues with race and serve to keep people in their places. After the last political election much was made about [white] folk voting against their own economic self interest to support Republicans. I have definitely met Whites who took a hard line Republican stance on something purely I suspect because they thought it would prevent undesirables read Blacks, illegal Mexicans from benefiting from something that could have helped themselves.
I am shaking my head here. it reads like a jab with a straight and a hook.
But - for a child growing up in segregated america - with possibly uninformed parents - dont you think allen's attitude would have been somewhat common. if allen made a public apology - expressed remorse - would you forgive him? I am bringing this up because I would consider it - I have made mistakes in the past but have learned. I know people at work who have occasionally made bigoted, sexist remarks - and I cant help but wonder at the environment their children are growing up in - these slurs are probably part of household chit-chat.
i would however now take a deep hard look on the policies allen has pushed in the past few years to understand how entrenched the bigotry is in his beliefs system.
we know he's a racist...
I believe in Karma Chameleon...;)...how many more incidents or past stories do we all need?
Allen's racism spans all skin colors that don't reflect his and his 'football' familiy... oh yeah, and puhhhleeze blame the CUBS training camp for teaching him how to dip... he changes colors and stories to the tune of the song... 'I didn't what macaca meant (um...bullsh*t).... Let me hold an ethnic rally (paaathetic)...Let me hang another Confederate flag (Oh I didn't know it was hurtful to people...--umm...bullsh*t)
Don't mess with macacas. That is all I have to say.That, and I especially feel sorry for those macacas and other ethnic minorities who live in Virginia if this doofus wins.
Well, stick a fork in Allen's campaign. He's done.
Vikram has a point abhi. You are far more forgiving of politicians on the left, and please don't bring up Biden as an example. Clinton is the perfect foil: if you can roll your eyes at the Indian American Republican Council house macacas, I can roll my eyes at the Clintonista house macacas. Er, wait, this is about women not color so the progressive men don't really care, do they?
Sorry, but this is the reason I left the democratic party. Watching certain feminists trash their principles because of Clinton. I actually voted for the guy, and I have the same mixed up feelings a lot of americans who are middle of the road have about him. Politicians lie all the time, they shuffle, they dissemble, the pull the wool over your eyes. But, somehow, that finger wagging I did not have sexual relations with that women just really pissed me off: don't do that. Don't look in that camera and do that. I know why some people don't like Bush or Allen, but what I don't get is why the same people overlook Clinton's mendacity. Two wrongs don't make a right, do they abhi, I mean why should I as a women be at all annoyed at the way those women were treated by the media and large chunks of the left? Just because the right went bats*it crazy in the 90s does not make it okay.
Brooklyn Brown, your trashing of Indians that don't agree with you politically is getting old. Yeah, the only thing in the world I care about is money. That's why I work in a teaching hospital and make less than half of what I would in the private sector. Why do you think your tactics will work? Why do you think I am any more inclined to come over to your side politically when all you do is look down on anyone who does not agree with you 100%?
To simplify: the defense IARC is running for Allen is no different than the defense progressive men and women, who are supposed to actually give a damn about harrassment towards women, run for Clinton. Get it, Einsteins?
Let me guess, MD: wrong side of the bed.
These macacas are the type of people that were Allen standing in front of them in a Klan robe handing out tax refunds, they'd call him sir, grab their money and then shuffle 'n jive for the crowd. News of racist incidents from 30 years ago won't change their minds one bit.
Well put BB. Bravo!
MD, you may wanna take some of those prescription pills you forgot to take this morning. Take it easy.
My point was clear: that desis who vote for Allen while acknowledging his history of racist acts must be placing other values above their own civil rights, values such as defense and lower taxes. This wasn't a personal attack, but now, frankly I'm just sorry that my point hit too close to home for you.
I have no desire to convert you, MD. You've already converted once. It doesn't really matter to me if you'll do so again -- with or without your cute little ad hominems against me. But please, keep 'em coming!
My point and implication being that Hillary Clinton is a better politician than George Allen as she has weathered the racism charge twice (if you include the Gandhi incident) quite easily.
I don't live in Virginia Brooklyn Brown and I already stated I wouldn't vote for a man who uses the n word or a man who said that the Naval Academy was 'horny women's dream' or whatever Webb said thirty odd years ago. Actually, I don't care what he said thirty odd years ago, he was a young man and foolish, I wouldn't vote for him based on his Iraq stand or economic populism. This isn't the first time you've called Indian Republicans house macacas or the first time you've refused to see my point.
No, explain it to me: why is ignoring harrassment of women, and decades of it, any worse than ignoring racism? Explain it to me.
And as for the conversion part, my point has been some people are into forming political blocs to actually get to some goal, while others are in it for the intellectual purity and to prove that they are better than others.
The sad thing about all this is that black people have known all along that the guy is a stone cold racist. As chick pea said, how much more evidence do you want? But the political calculus of the Republican Southern Strategy launched in the 1960s is that you win seats by courting white nativist sentiment, eve at the risk of alienating black people. The Southern Strategy basically provided (and still provides) political cover and legitimacy for some straight-up racists to run for office.
So, it turns out that there's an incumbent Republican senator from the South who's a racist? No shit. What's sad is that it's taken him dissing the model minority for the shit to finally hit the fan.
it turns out that there's an incumbent Republican senator from the South who's a racist
This is the end of the innocence.
Hehe. Nicely put Head Macaca..nicely put.
The fan is full of crap now...Too bad so sad Allen...
Go back to your dipping ways...
Do you guys really believe this crock?
No, Not the stuff about Allen having used the epithet "nigger", but, that he is the only one who ever used it ?
No, Kritic, I don't believe that George F. Allen Jr. is the only person to have ever used that word. Indeed, I am sure that several other Americans have used that word. So, what is your point?
MD, it's America, you are free to change your party affiliation and vote as you choose. But if you want to support your cause I'd suggest that you leave 'mendacity' out of it.
Last I checked, no one was maimed, tortured, killed or jailed in conditions that contravene the Geneva Convention because of Bill Clinton's mendacity .
Thousands of American soldiers did not die because of Bill Clinton's mendacity.
Hundreds of billions of military dollars were not spent because of Bill Clinton's mendacity.
Whole societies will not have to pay an untold personal and monetary toll for generations to come because of Bill Clinton's mendacity.
Here we are, six years into an administration that has given new meaning to this word. After all that has happened in these six years, if you cannot understand that there are many kinds of mendacity in this world, if you do not get that the repercussion of certain mendacious acts simply cannot be compared with certain others, if that's not possible then I merely ask that you refrain from abusing SAT words in this fashion.
Kavita, why do you hate freedom?
LOL!
fantastic points kavita...
the ets would be proud of you...and so would princeton review, kaplan, and the barrons guide...
Wow, this is really distrubing...the prospect of more Ethnic Rallies, I mean!
just more fodder for stephen colbert and jon stewart...
Ever heard of the rendition policies under Clinton Kavita? Care to look them up? Try searching for extraordinary rendition and Clinton, Kavita.
By the way, I'm thirty nine this october. I took the ACT, not the SAT back in the day.......it's not such a big word, actually.
Saddam is gone. That is a good thing. He started a war with Iran in which what, a million, died? Well, at least the middle east was stable back then. He drove the Marsh Arabs off their land, he gassed Kurds. I'm glad he's gone. If Baathists and Islamists and sectarians blow up mosques and schools, then that is their fault, not the fault of the coalition forces.
What did Madeline Albright say about Iraqi children and sanctions? Care to look that up Kavita? By the way, I heard her speak at a women's forum here in town. When asked her favorite part about being Secretary of State, she said she enjoyed the 'little people.' Words fail me. Even with my SAT vocabulary and all.
Did young soldiers die in Somalia, Kavita? Did Clinton send them there? It's not on the order of thousands, so I guess it doesn't count, huh.
For understanding the mindset of Allen and other Republicans, this book from master strategist Kevin Phillips is a must read. Republicans wink wink to racists policy has been instrumental in the South turning completely Republican. Allen is an exception, most of the racism is more subtle and insidious like Reagan starting his election campaign from Neshoba County Fair in Mississippi.
I'm 39 this October as well, MD, and I took the SAT. Not sure what your point is. But if you were born on the 16th, then we may be each other's evil twin.
But your grasping for the trespasses of the Clinton Administration is truly ridiculous. Of course it committed trespasses! It was only the government of the most powerful country on earth. Shit, if you want to look at the causes for our current predicament, you could blame all the US administrations since Nixon for their unstinting support of the Saudi monarchy and miscellaneous other oil satraps, without which the political conditions for the rise of Wahhabi extremism would not have been in place, let alone the funding.
So, sure, blame everybody. Throw all the bums out, I say! Let's find a bunch of political virgins and elect them to office! That's the logical conclusion of your argument.
If you think there is moral equivalence between the Clinton and Bush Administrations, well, hey, that's your belief. We're talking morality here, so rational argument takes a back seat to our personal beliefs and biases.
Just appreciate that many of us who think the Bush Administration has caused far greater harm to the country and the world than its predecessor did, do so not out of ignorance or denial of the trespasses of Clinton and everyone else, but in full awareness of the record.
Have a nice day.
Kobayashisan,
Allow me to offer the wisdom of another George, that sage philosopher of a bygone era - It looks like the road to heaven / But it feels like the road to hell
Freedom, baby. You've gotta give for what you take.
Is anyone really shocked? A white male in the south was raised in a racist society, turned out to be a racist!
In the strange ways of the world, we probably are some kind of karmic desi twins, siddhartha, although evil? Ouch.
As for the ACT point, I was just making a stupid joke....growing up where and when I did we took the ACT not the SAT.
No, you make exactly my point! I get tired of simplistic versions of right and left. You know, all right all devils all left all angels. It's not so straightforward. That's my point. I wouldn't vote for Allen, but I once voted for a man who deeply offended my sensibilities as a sometime feminist. I actually don't think he was such a bad president. All presidents are deeply flawed. Adults make adult decisions. You can sit it out or you can get involved. When people diss the desi voters voting for Allen in certain derogatory 'shuffle and jive' terms, I object. I think the Allen voters are simply wrong in their calculations: I don't think they are bad people, anymore than I think people who voted for Clinton are in favor of extraditing everyone to a Syrian prison. Do you understand the point I am making?
If Baathists and Islamists and sectarians blow up mosques and schools, then that is their fault, not the fault of the coalition forces.
It is the responsibility of the occupying power to provide safety and security to the occupied people. The killers are responsible and so is the US for its failure to provide adequate responsibility. Technically, the occupation is over now so that should change things.
I'm not defending Allen (I think he's generally a s&$!head) but there's two questions I have to ask and a point I want to make:
1. Does he still feel this way? I mean, hell, people in college can be all kinds of jerks that they no longer would advocate.
2. It was 30 years ago, right, and in some areas of the country that attitude really was still acceptable. But people do grow and change.
And the thing I keep thinking about is that in America, the real American dream is not the being economically prosperous and being able to raise a family and do what you want with all the freedoms you get. That's only part of the equation. The thing that's really the distilled essence of America is the ability to start over again. We started as a country where people could get away from the problems of wherever they came from and be reborn, start anew. I still think that that's part of the reason why people continue to come here. In the US, when you get down to brass tacks, it doesn't matter where you came from (or shouldn't, though current political trends seem to indicate otherwise) but what you're making of yourself now. You were Dalit back home. Not here. We don't care. Your dad was the town scoundrel and everyone in the old country wouldn't give you a chance to do anything because of your bad family name? Not here.
So we should consider if Allen's remade himself, if he's given up that old way of thinking and repented. And I say that as a person who finds Allen generally repugnant.
MD: Out of curiousity, would you agree that the Republican 'Southern Strategy' involves pandering to the racist tendencies of some voters in the South? That in every election, the Republicans offer code words, symbolic gestures to that segment of the electorate?
Al M, what are you, Chris Wallace, with the loaded questions? Am I supposed to take that question seriously? You are wagging your finger at me right now, aren't you?
I'm curious about the response to Al-Mujahid's very good point in #50 (and earlier in #43). The fact that this isn't just "so and so used a word." But that there's a wink-wink pattern of "we all know what we think of those people." Lots of race baiting, lots of code words. Along this line, Allen's deeper offence wasn't "macaca," it was "welcome to America," the way he used it in a certain context in front of a certain crowd. The way he presented one definite idea of who belongs, and who's a visitor.
What do you make of that long-standing and still-continuing pattern, MD?
LOL@Chris Wallace.
I am serious though. Maybe you have a different take on the Southern Strategy. I see things through a leftist prism.
Those "simplistic versions" -- the one you mention and its reverse -- are common out there in the culture, but in the context of this site and the conversation that takes place here, your point is a straw man. Whatever else you think of it, the political discussion that takes place here is anything but simplistic.
You're judging on personalities, not politics and parties. Let's say you are a feminist and an anti-racist. If you vote for Clinton despite Monica, you're giving one individual a free pass for his personal behavior. If you vote for Allen despite the track record that we are discussing here, you are not just giving an individual a free pass, but also rewarding a calculated and orchestrated political strategy that provides cover for bigotry.
You can reply that in either case, it's a free pass, it sets a bad example, and you don't give free passes to anyone. If you actually manage to hold that standard in your life, then bully for you. But a free pass to an individual and a free pass to an overarching political strategy are two different matters.
"Shuffle and jive" is a historical reference, as you know; "house macaca" makes such a reference as well. You may find these terms distasteful, but they aren't calling Allen voters bad people. They are simply pointing to the historical legacy of people of color accomondating racists. There's a whole history of that in this country.
Funny you should bring up that example on this day.
Does anybody remember when Jesse Jackson referred to NYC as "hymie city" -- in case anyone doesn't know, hymie is an insulting word for Jews. Caused quite a rucus but Jackson still does whatever it is he does. However, I have heard that Jews once routinely referred to gentiles as "goys" which is also pretty insulting.
Epithets for race, gender, nationality, etc. are a part of the language, unfortunately, like curse words. Nowadays in the workplace--the one sacred area in which all prejudices must be left behind as the races meet in name of efficient money making--we are all expected to control our tongues and swallow our prejudices no matter how little we personally matter in the great scheme of things. I don't give a tinker's damn about Allen, but few of us would want our private thoughts, much less our youthful thoughtless words, scrutinized out of context. So no politician, dealing with our money, our lives, our futures and our countries, should be allowed to get away with devisive speech for which a policeman or secretary or mid-level manager, or some other poor schlub would lose their job. At the very least, a person shows no self control running their mouths like that. But again--if all politicans were so honest we wouldn't have to worry. They are doing far worse things than using the odd and silly epithet. It's the devil you don't know that's most dangerous.
"You were Dalit back home. Not here. We don't care."
I thought i was a macaca here. Different words, same racism.
i say to hell with the virginia race...
we all need to support the retired math teacher from missouri and his quest for oprah for president in 2008... hmm..maybe then she'll get GM to give all americans brand new cars then... hot diggity damn...getting a sponsor to give you all the cars..then taking all the credit... oprah you're a hell of a genius...
How, exactly, is the current scrutiny of Allen's words occurring "out of context"? (Also, how do you know they were "thoughtless"?)
Didn't Allen grow up in Southern California and Chicago ?
haha... now john grisham and stephen king are endorsing webb..and as per king:
wha...!!
"out of context"... "odd and silly epithet"... there's a massive disconnect here. i have been on every side of the racial-social-political spectrum - just part of being an indian - and people who use derogatory comments for other races/religions/castes are rarely doing this as a joke. there are genuine feelings of hatred and/or virtuosity and/or superiority involved. these are not the people i would have running for political office because i feel their emotions would cloud their judgement and blind them to those outside their immediate field of vision (IFOV).
i am sorry - but i really think you are talking out of your ass.
Another Presidential hopefuls ambitions thwarted?
doubt it - only skeptical b/c hillary clinton made a similarly ridiculous comment as the senator of NY, and still manages to flounce around unscathed, that is, unless only republicans are capable of racism
Oh my, how did I get painted as an Allen defender here? I'm deeply disappointed because I like his stands on many issues but I think what he has said in the past is beyond what I can accept and I've stated that repeatedly. I wouldn't vote for him if I was in a position to do so.
Look, I just have spent too much time recently around the contentious, cranky, divisive big tent of the right with it's libertarian, Wall-Street, social conservative, paleoconservative etc, types, in the last few years to believe this nonsense about code words purposely using race as a motivator. I mean, a lot of us disagree on the war. Okay. Fine. But this whole calculated bigotry for votes thing is just silly. It's a fiction when applied to the party as a whole and all the people in it.As for Allen? Jeez, how do I know? His legislation and policies, except for the whole MLK thing, seem okay to me. Some of his personal behavior on the other hand is, uh, questionable. Anyway, I'm not an Allen defender. I am a crank and possibly hormonal (oh, do not go there, sometime feminist......)
You guys should see me on rightie sites. What? You think only SM gets this kind of love?
"How, exactly, is the current scrutiny of Allen's words occurring "out of context"? (Also, how do you know they were "thoughtless"?)"
The sepia discussion is not out of context. It is entirely in context. I was referring to the object of the discussion--epithets, and what provokes them.
Do you really think anybody with ambitions and any exposure to modern society in this litigious age would use racial and sexual epithets in public thoughtfully? The only people who get away with it and still make money are rappers. Desis have a right to know what candidates really think about brown and black people, and white for that matter. Just don't hold your breath for the truth. Like I said, if only everybody's bigotries were as stupidly transparent as Allen's.
This Allen guy seems pretty immature and from his track record he's a racist because people who actually live in Virginia and deal with him, have that impression and I'll take their word and their experience. I'd never vote for him and anyway, I live in Maryland where there are several desi candidates, should I wish to rally round the brown.
I was really thinking more of other cases--the Hillary one might qualify, though I don't like her either.
What it boils down to is, you can get hung up on words. It's deeds that matter.
I have echoed a similar point in #21 that if the guy is genuinely contrite, then he deserves a chance. more importantly does his political career show signs of racial bias? I dont have the answer. I am hoping someone from Virigna might offer some insights.
MD - tersely, b/c I'm in a hurry. Here's an article that argues that Allen has a long history of coded racist appeals:
This is a well known white supremacist organization. He knew exactly what he was doing with that photo.
Hairy_D:
But he grew up in California. All of this Southern stuff is an affectation. He used to be a surfer boy.
"...there are genuine feelings of hatred and/or virtuosity and/or superiority involved. these are not the people i would have running for political office because i feel their emotions would cloud their judgement and blind them to those outside their immediate field of vision (IFOV).
i am sorry - but i really think you are talking out of your ass."
whew, OK, hairy-d, I get where you're coming from and maybe I am too complacent, but I do think we have frame exactly what is we are afraid of HERE in this country. I don't mean that Allen should be forgiven or that we don't have to protest racist remarks. Of course we do.
However, working where I work, I am cynical about politicians and know how shallow so much of their talk is. They are pretty useless, really. The "out of context" remark has upset people. It doesn't mean Allen, ok. It means that speech can, in many circumstances, be taken out of context and given meaning it wasn't meant to have, i.e. Allen meant to be an asshole. I didn't mean to be an asshole. See?
I have already admitted that shows his lack of self-control, consideration, and probably, brains. I admit that I am not giving sufficient consideration to other desi (and other minority) experiences.
You're right, I expressed myself badly. Peace.
I'm glad that we both agree that desis in Virginia who vote for Allen are wrong. "Shuffle and jive" was used to discuss the power dynamics at play; these people are making wrong decisions that let Republicans know that you can still get a desi to vote for you even if you had a noose in your office, took photos with white supremacy groups, and called desis "monkeys". I'm not sure how you read that I called them bad or evil. Please explain. I would use the term stupid, though.
MD, you're not the only person who has found fault with Clinton, Albright, and Christopher -- some of which I would definitely agree with -- but I would still choose Clinton over Bush anyday.
Maurice,
This is not an isolated incident. If Allen has grown or changed in any way it's in the creative ways he uses to justify his racism. And your remark about America as the land of transformations is funny because Allen moved from southern Cali to Virginia in order to transform himself. Look what he's transformed himself into!
to hairy-d:
oh, I posted my response before I read your response to my first response to siddhartha. Please let's just go with the mutual apologies. We all basically agree that Allen and his ilk are jerks and we have to keep our jerk-o-meters operative at all times.
Does anyone besides me think that all this sniping at Allen could have the exact opposite effect as intended and motivate his base? I mean who do you think has more votes in Virginia- good old boy rednecks that don't mind someone that keeps them dark people in their place, or minorities and hyper-sensitive liberals? I hope Webb wins, but I would not be surprised if Allen still carried this thing.
The past is the past. People can change.
I think what matters most is Allen's attitude now, in the year 2006. That is the only thing that should be scrutinized.
In the last 15 years, Virginia has had 3 Democrat Governors, one of them an African-American.
I grew up in the South, and though my family faced a lot of racism in the early 80s (death threats against my parents and two bomb threats from the Klan), I do honestly think that many Southerners flinch at being associated with a racist. Some don't, you're right, but many do.
What started this scrutiny about Allen was the macaca incident of a few months ago. That uncovered a pattern. It's that pattern that I focus on now.
yes, allen is a major league creep.
and yes, this weblog has a clear liberal bias, because of the nature of the posters and the views of most of the commenters. look at ennis' assertion that there was 'relative silence from the world of blogs' about the bombay bombings, after which he details the breakdown of major blogs which shows quite clearly that the right-wing blogs were more interested/hooked in to the story than the left-wing blogs.
that's life. stupid commenters here on the right are highlighted in a bright & shiny fashion because many people are fact-checking their ass. those on the left get a relative pass. it's a function of the culture.
Brooklyn Brown, my point is that at one point or another we have all voted for people who did things we found utterly reprehensible. You have, I have, we all have....unless you never bothered to vote. That's what I'm saying. Does that excuse certain behaviors? No. But careful how you extrapolate from Allen to other Republicans.....
PS: BrooklynBrown, how have I never read your blog? I like - the overheard in New York excerpt was funny.
Okay people, stop wasting my time!
But this whole calculated bigotry for votes thing is just silly. It's a fiction when applied to the party as a whole and all the people in it.
I am presuming that you dont follow American politics closely, because if you did, you would have not made the above statement. The Republican 'Southern Strategy' is not a fiction. It is and has been a reality of American politics for the past 40 years or so. I am sure you also believe that Reagan campaign start from Neshoba County Fair was purely accidental.
>>> a deer's head being stuck in a black family's mailbox?
Is there a racial significance to this act? i mean this is a horrible act whether it was stuck in ablack family's mailbox or white family's mailbox, right?
But this whole calculated bigotry for votes thing is just silly. It's a fiction when applied to the party as a whole and all the people in it.
Please dont create strawman. No one is applying it to all the people in the Republican party or to every elected official of the republican party. But to suggest that it does not exist is plain naive and ignorant IMO.
I am a die hard democrat but I do understand that the Dems do pandering of their own. Why cant the Republicans also admit that there has been race baiting in the Southern states over the past few decades by the Republicans?
Re the Southern Strategy, as I said in comment #32: the political calculus of the Southern Strategy is that you win seats by courting white nativist sentiment, even at the risk of alienating black people.
The Southern Strategy is established history. That it results in providing cover to racists is a logical political implication. Whether racist code is deployed in a given political campaign is a case by case mattter. However, the Southern Strategy provides a tactical justification and incentive for deploying such code.
"Polls reflect what people are thinking in reality... and reality has a well known liberal bias" - Stephen Colbert
The Southern Strategy is established history. That it results in providing cover to racists is a logical political implication. Whether racist code is deployed in a given political campaign is a case by case mattter. However, the Southern Strategy provides a tactical justification and incentive for deploying such code.
Good point! The 'Southern Strategy' has played a key role in the complete decimation of the Democrats in the South. I do however believe that the next crop of Republican Southern politicians will rely more on the 'Evangelical strategy' as the Southern strategy is on the decline now.
It's more a function of not being able to defend the indefensible. Six years of rhetoric measured against reality is quite damning, culture or not, for all Administrations. It's just that this Administration drew very stark lines.
Polls reflect what people are thinking in reality... and reality has a well known liberal bias" - Stephen Colbert
you're a case in point. comment 46 was false, you just trotted out the stereotype of racist southern whites, when anyone who has scratched the surface of allen's background knows he's a half-jewish kid who was raised all over the country and most prominently in california. but hey, you had your stereotypes, why did deeper? multiple other people alluded to southern racists and their cultural history, so you weren't alone in your ignorant misimpression.
Siddartha -
"No, Kritic, I don't believe that George F. Allen Jr. is the only person to have ever used that word. Indeed, I am sure that several other Americans have used that word. So, what is your point?"
My point is that many a congressmen and senator, from either party, must have used a derogatory term to describe a minority, including women, a la Jim tailhookwasanobigdeal webb. so, why the extra scrutiny towards allen. esp, since, your blog, which i love and respect, btw, already covered the south asia pertinent, "macacca gate"
p.s. my point on the liberal bias of the blog isn't to suggest it should be changed. it is what it is, but when vikram, and to a lesser extent manju, trot out tired republican talking points in a "foxnews fair & balanced" manner they get smacked pretty badly. when HMF repeats leftish gibberish-cant ("whiter power structure" blah blah "skin privilege" blah blah) there isn't a concomittant response from the principals (some random non-lefty tries to engage usually).
The deer's head in the mailbox basically means, "If you don't do as I tell you and stay in your place, I'm going to get you." Kind of similar to the horse's head in the bedroom from the Godfather. I think to a white person's mailbox it would just be a random act of vandalism since it wouldn't send the message "you better...or else." To a black person, though, it's a hate crime meant to intimidate.
multiple other people alluded to southern racists and their cultural history, so you weren't alone in your ignorant misimpression.
Pointing out the fact that a segment of the Southern electorate who votes Republican has been race-baited is not a misimpression. Do you disagree with the assertion?
Because Indian business men/women and the IARC continue to support him.
Jim tailhookwasanobigdeal Webb = tu quoque fallacy (see comment #10)
Pointing out the fact that a segment of the Southern electorate who votes Republican has been race-baited is not a misimpression. Do you disagree with the assertion?
no, i was pointing out to the conflation of allen with that subculture. HMF & his kind have a theory of the situation, and they just applied their theory. allen is X, Y entails X, so allen is Y. but he isn't. "fact checking" theories requires a culture of criticism, and leftish ideas do not come in for the same criticism here that rightish ideas do.
for example, you alluded to mexican american family values, did you not? empirically mexican americans, and latin americans in general, actually have very high out of wedlock birthrates and what not. the theory is isn't correct, but few people on the right or left bother to check it.
Siddhartha:
Since I brought Clinton into the mess, let me clarify that I wasn't using him to provide cover for conservatives who'd like to vote for Allen but to rather show why the charges should be taken seriously (which is pretty clear as my post 7 is aimed at vikram). I know how you're oppossed to the tit for tat game in politics so I don't want to pracitice it lest you sik Kobayashi on me like you did to Rushdie ;-]
But Monica is a strawwoman. jones, broderick, willey charge him with harrassment and rape. This goes beyond the personal and violates the public morality of a feminist. now i understand that clinton's behaviour could be defended, but no desi dem is making that argument...rather they are saying the behaviour is private.
Razib, you're also a case in point. To parallel you, anyone who has scratched the surface of Allen's background knows he found out only a few weeks ago about his Jewish ancestry. To use it in an argument intended to promote his multicultural upbringing is disingenuous -- especially for someone who famously claimed how much they know at the tips of your fingers(forget where your quote is). You also need to fact check. "but hey, you had your stereotypes, why did[sic] deeper?"
"family values" means different things to different people. having kids out of wedlock is not as much of a social more for latinos as it is for most desis. on the other hand, latino families expect their children to take care of one another more so than desi families do.
To parallel you, anyone who has scratched the surface of Allen's background knows he found out only a few weeks ago about his Jewish ancestry.
i knew he found out "a few weeks ago,"* and i shouldn't have used the term half-jewish, but he knew he was half-tunisian, and certainly knowing french is not the norm for a southern "good ole boy."
as for how much i know "at my fingertips," you seriously doubt that? puleez.
* i don't really believe this too much, the lumbrosos are not unfamous
"family values" means different things to different people. having kids out of wedlock is not as much of a social more for latinos as it is for most desis.
i don't care what latinos believe family values means. i know what social conservatives and liberals in the USA are trying to impart by this, and i don't think high rates of illegitimacy count.
Yeah, "family values" has also a fatherf***ing codeword for many things in the past.
...has also been a ..
for example, you alluded to mexican american family values, did you not?
When was that?
Abhi, you say:
But you defend the use of the allen story even if it proves to be untrue because of the swift boat ads:
Tu Quoque?
No, I said I'd be personally happy if it hurts him because of the karmic irony. Tu Quoque is only pertinent in the middle of an argument or debate.
Here is an example for you:
"Hitler was bad. He killed millions of people."
"Oh yeah, the fire-bombing of Dresden was bad also. A lot of people got killed"
Nice try though. It isn't going to keep people from continuing to roll their eyes at your ridiculous interjection of Clinton into this.
AMJ, here.
#72 This is due to, I believe the highly educated and well off residents in northern va(dc area). this area isn't made up of mostly native southerners I believe. it's also not considered "the south" by the inhabitants and in general generally i think. of course i guess the latter may only hold true for people who know about northern va. of course you might know all this. also don't forget the democrats were considered the racist party pre civil rights era (hope I got it right). this country has a racist history. isn't just modern repubs. also the north can be racist too. i mean people complain about racism all over the country. i doubt black people are saying it's all hunky dory in detroit or boston. isn't boston supposeed to be really racist? now i wouldn't want to live in the rural south or even the south really (grew up in MD). maybe a highly educated area. im just saying it's not all one-sided.
also brooklyn brown would you mind describing where u grew up. ie what region of state, size of town, demographics of populace. just curious.
disclaimer: not as smart/informed as the posters here. so just to cover this or any follow up responses i may have, i am admitting to stupidity or most anything else youse guys can dish out. this is assuming someone actually responds to this.
SO RAZIB, HOW'S THE VACATION? ARE YOU GOING THROUGH SM WITHDRAWAL PAINS? HAVE YOU COMMENCED REPLACING ONE ADDICTION WITH ANOTHER?
oh, and my point isn't that you are trying to use that fact to forward some specific point, but that disputable background facts abound. when right-wingers bring their talking points to the table they get torn down by a thousand cuts really quickly. not as common on the left, unless you are saying something negative about hindutva. just the nature of the game around these parts....
SO RAZIB, HOW'S THE VACATION? ARE YOU GOING THROUGH SM WITHDRAWAL PAINS? HAVE YOU COMMENCED REPLACING ONE ADDICTION WITH ANOTHER?
dude, wutz up with the skreeming? :) i'm back at work.
just to be clear, not being on the computer & working on a weekend counts as vacation for me.
#105. oops sorry. generally don't do that. guess i wanted the q's to stand out.
Abhi:
Wow. Nice parsing. Very Clintonesque.
BrooklynBrown in #73
The KKK bomb threatened your family in the 80s?
Wow. Those things still go on?
Aren't they afraid of being taken to court and sued or something?
It's hard to believe that post 60s anything of that sort from the KKK would take place.
They must not realize the world they live in.