if the phone rings at 4am, it better be a booty call

i'm guilty of salivating when i hear the term auntie/uncle...
i was once called by an uncle at 6am while on vacation in ooty (yes india) by some random uncle who tracked me down in order for me to give his son advice on taking the SAT's 10 years ago...

what the hell do i look like? the princeton review?
that happened again a few times 5am calls when i was back in amrika from aunties and uncles who heeded advice for their dear beta's...and their academic future/s?

i forbid my parents to freely give out my digits afterwards.

'beta you should help everyone'...'yeah mom, i need my sleep and my sanity and don't want to be hoarded by crazy parents like the father in spellbound.'

um. okay. i told them in that case, i'd change number and wouldn't give it to them :)
case closed.

I'm generally VERY polite and formal when dealing with uncles/aunties. I just can't help it.

That doesn't mean I'm formal when dealing with mamas/masis/chachas/buas, etc. With them I'm respectful but relaxed, and joke around a lot, etc. By uncle/aunty I'm specifically referring to non-related elders, parents of friends, etc.

Uncles/Aunties are on their own special pedestal in my world. Even if they're annoying as hell, I would feel extremely guilty if I thought I disrespected them.

Although in my family, you don't really cross a certain line with even a cousin or sibling if they are significantly older than you. But that's less in my generation (and looking to the future, some of my cousin's kids don't seem to have much respect for anybody); also my dad's family is much more into this formality and respect thing than my mom's family, although both sides have it.

:) I must be really thankful for having no relatives, distant or close, in this country. The friends who call me at 4 AM, well, more power to them.

i had an interesting experience the other day. thought i would share. there is an oblique reference to this post - just some things that are ingrained and probably no one can learn or un-learn after a certain age.

i was at the neighborhood grocer last night, rooting in a bin for firm onions. this old lady (well, in her 40's maybe) was a few feet away. she tipped over a little mound of red potatoes. they were quire firm and rolled all over. Some to near where I was standing. I was still rooting around like a pig after fungus when she came over to pick up this potato near my foot. i pulled away, bent down and up in a flash with said potato. she seemed surprised and i thought about my reaction for a while. i suppose it was just the thought of an 'older' person touching my feet that went agaisnt the grain. part of being desi i guess. some of you (amitabh?) may relate to this.

I had a distantly related Aunty I had never seen or met before in my life introduced to me at a family function. She nodded her head and stared at me briefly and and then asked me (without saying hello) in front of a load of my relatives, 'How old are you? Why arent you married yet?'

Dont get me wrong, a little teasing from an Aunty you know is fine. But I don't know how I managed to hold my tongue and not tell her to f**k off. I suppose the fact that we were at a religious event and I my mother was standing next to me. Some of them are bloody awful. I'm not joking, some of them are real interfering devil women.

I'm with Bidismokers philosophy in #7. When it's someone my parents don't know I decide who is "uncle" & "auntie" worthy. If they decide to use the title for themselves I usually laugh. I'm too old to be pulling the "come here and tell auntie your problem" shit. And single women like me draw aunties like moths. Don't even get me started on the uncles!

Incidentally after absolutely loving the peace and quite of my new home I just moved into I unfortunately learned that I share my bedroom wall with a "auntie's" bedroom wall. Joy!!

I've been there all of 10 minutes and she's already managed to piss me off. She somehow thinks because I'm desi and single she can knock on my door any ridiculous hours to chat! Fuck that. I'm not home.

I have no shame not opening the door while being home knowing she's knocking. Not getting in that habit. The last time I ran into her she tried the "Oh it's nice that you live next door now, remember your auntie is right next door, think of me as your mom." NOT!

i suppose it was just the thought of an 'older' person touching my feet that went agaisnt the grain. part of being desi i guess. some of you (amitabh?) may relate to this.

Dont be so Hindu-centric in your desi view ;)

'How old are you? Why arent you married yet?'

Ah - Red Snapper is female, I see :) I never knew ...

I do have my own auntie/uncle story, but it has to do with somebody my grandfather's age. I was at an Indian grocery store a few years ago when I saw an old man buying a handful of bulbs of garlic. When it looked like he didn't have enough money, and was about to reduce his (fairly small) purchase, I slipped the cashier a dollar to cover the shortfall. He never thanked me, and I never wanted him to.

However, in this case the man was my grandfather's age, poor and black. My grandfather had died years before, but I still missed him something fierce. I was more than happy to pay an extra dollar, almost as an offering to his memory (although that's not a Sikh custom). It hurt to see somebody that age so poor.

Still, that's a very different situation. Uncles and Aunties are (usually) wealthy, middle-aged, and brown. It's not that they are unable to take care of their lives and need some help, it's that they're nosing into yours, or want something from you. Am I supposed to feel submissive to every brown stranger who calls themselves "uncle" or "auntie" ?

Dont be so Hindu-centric in your desi view ;)

I share my bedroom wall with a "auntie's" bedroom wall. Joy!!

So, what we really want to know is ... do you have to pound on the wall at night to tell them to keep it down? Are you unable to sleep because of the thumping of the bed frame against the wall and the creaking of the bed springs?

I gotta say, knowing that Auntie is on the other side of the wall would certainly dampen my ardor. I suggest not mentioning it to any young swains.

So, what we really want to know is ... do you have to pound on the wall at night to tell them to keep it down? Are you unable to sleep because of the thumping of the bed frame against the wall and the creaking of the bed springs?

Dude I never hear her, auntie lives with a son I've never seen, there is no uncle! And everytime I roll over in bed I have a feeling she's on the other side with her ear to my wall. My friends came over the other day and were causing a ruckus and banging my bed against the wall to see if they could get a reaction out of her! She wasn't home. **sigh**

I gotta say, knowing that Auntie is on the other side of the wall would certainly dampen my ardor. I suggest not mentioning it to any young swains.

Oh yeah you bet are you kidding me though everyone I mention that to seems to get a naughty look on their face. I don't blame them. They don't freaking live there!!

Hairy-d;

Since when did women in their 40s become "old ladies".

Wow.

Hm...I wonder if said auntie was actually a telemarketer. My sister gets lots of desi aunty-type telemarketers in NYC and says they are the most persistent people who will not shut up even when she informs them she's on the national Do Not Call list.

My sister gets lots of desi aunty-type telemarketers in NYC and says they are the most persistent people who will not shut up even when she informs them she's on the national Do Not Call list.

Your sister must be super nice because I just say hold on and hang up! :-) I don't have a land line and it eliminates a massive number of calls other people seem to get.

Since when did women in their 40s become "old ladies".

Do you realize uncles and aunties have their own uncles and aunties? It's kind of the familial equivalent of a business rule - everyone has a boss.

Y'all have inspired me. Since I'm largely entertainment-deprived out here on the West Coast, I'm going to conduct a survey, and put on my bestest FOB accent and call all my friends at 4am, introducing myself as "Raj Uncle," and making inane queries to get advice for my poor beta, Buntu, who will never get into med school without some to worry over him and help him make a perfect score on the SATs, even though Buntu is four years old.

I expect this will be highly enlightening.

I also expect shortly to have even fewer friends than I do currently.

if the phone rings at 4am, it better be a booty call

These days, you never know, Beta.

I LOVE that shirt! I have it, and I'm going to buy another one for a friend!

God god, don't get Red Snapper started. He's got a Pavlovian response alright.

(Not that there's anything wrong with that...)

hairy_d:

I was still rooting around like a pig after fungus when she came over to pick up this potato near my foot. i pulled away, bent down and up in a flash with said potato. she seemed surprised and i thought about my reaction for a while. i suppose it was just the thought of an 'older' person touching my feet that went agaisnt the grain. part of being desi i guess. some of you (amitabh?) may relate to this.

Ennis:

Am I supposed to feel submissive to every brown stranger who calls themselves "uncle" or "auntie" ?

I not only "salivate" or become "submissive", I freak out when I'm forced into culturally dissonant behavior. I work at a hippie joint where the workers sometimes don't even come in with shoes on (read: really laid back, egalitarian environment). Sometimes, we have to page each other using an intercom. Well, our accountant is a desi uncle who I have a casual, but always respectful relationship with, and I hate, HATE paging him because I would have to address him personally (remember, hippie store, everybody equal, no corporate formalities, etc). It would just be too weird to get on a loud intercom and say, "Pradip Uncle, can you come to the front please? Pradip Uncle, to the front, thank you," in front of all the workers and customers [of varying ages]. Anyway, I use only his first name on the intercom, but it makes me uncomfortable the whole day I'm there with him.

I know that if my parents were there they would smack my arm and make me apologize for not using the "Uncle" honorific. "Beta, I don't care vat those goras do. Ve are Yndian so he is Uncle to you!"

As for the feet touching thing, that's more an age/hierarchy thing, but it still applies because aunty-/uncledom is basically nothing more than an age/hierarchy thing. I would have done the same thing you did. My older friend is aware of my sensitivity to what one does with the feet (touching, pointing at sacred things, stepping on books etc) and he likes to freak me out by sneaking up on me, prostrating, and touching my feet with both his hands and head. I instantly jerk back and then flap around like a fish out of water for a few seconds because it's just soooo weird to have that done to me, esp since I'm just a snotnosed 21-year-old.

"I would have done the same thing you did."

By "you" I meant hairy_d.

>>As for the feet touching thing, that's more an age/hierarchy thing, but it still applies because aunty->>/uncledom is basically nothing more than an age/hierarchy thing. I would have done the same thing you did. My >>older friend is aware of my sensitivity to what one does with the feet (touching, pointing at sacred things, >>stepping on books etc) and he likes to freak me out by sneaking up on me, prostrating, and touching my feet >>with both his hands and head. I instantly jerk back and then flap around like a fish out of water for a few >>seconds because it's just soooo weird to have that done to me, esp since I'm just a snotnosed 21-year-old.

do you feel the same way when you get a pedicure from an elder lady?

do you feel the same way when you get a pedicure from an elder lady?

It would feel weird for the first instance-- you know, intuitive response. I don't usually get pedicures, but when I do, I go to where I know there will be younger workers. If it had to be an older woman, I would just try to imagine her as an aunty applying henna on my feet, which doesn't register in my book as "wrong". The henna application is a deliberate and controlled exchange, and no one looses their status doing it.

Taz emailed me this a while back. I just thought I'd remind everyone that aunties aren't all bad. Especially if you are on the wrong side of 30 and they are one of those hot young aunties who are just a few years older than you. :)

Abhi, you fail to give Manju his due credit. He linked to that shirt just a few comments before yours.

If folks keep forcing me to defend Manju's rights(!), I might have to defect over to the brother's side.

Damn. I guess I didn't pay attention to my own advice.

If folks keep forcing me to defend Manju's rights(!), I might have to defect over to the brother's side.

No! Abhi, pay attention, bro.

do you feel the same way when you get a pedicure from an elder lady?

firstly, it is my temperament - i do not like lording it - even when getting shoes shined at those airport thingies - i would rather sit elsewhere and let the guy work on them solo - rather than sit on a throne like seat and have someone work my feet.

just to make the distinction - there was one occasion whn i had severe cramps after a race and this older person massaged my calves and thighs - didnt have any qualms then - i suspect because the purpose was therapeutic.

Well, our accountant is a desi uncle who I have a casual, but always respectful relationship with, and I hate, HATE paging him because I would have to address him personally

My mom is a physician who treats cancer, and she often works with a group of three Pakistani medical oncologists...they are all about 20 years younger than her, and you can see their discomfort at having to call her by her first name in the hospital. In social settings they all call her 'ba ji'. I love this aspect of our culture...for that matter, there is this Gujarati lady who runs a convenience store near where I work, and she always says 'Hi Amitabh' whenever I walk in...I don't want to call her by her first name, yet she's only 10-15 years older than me so aunty doesn't sound right, so I end up not calling her anything, I just say hello.

My mom is a physician who treats cancer, and she often works with a group of three Pakistani medical oncologists...they are all about 20 years younger than her, and you can see their discomfort at having to call her by her first name in the hospital. In social settings they all call her 'ba ji'.

i work with these folks in india. part of some interaction... this accountant asked me for some invoice and said, "dear mr. ___, please be so kind as to etc etc". I wrote back. "Hey M_, please dont be so formal. i would really like it if you'd call me ___". No response. Anyway, i shoot over the invoice. The guy writes back the next day, "dear mr. ___ , thank you for your prompt response... etc". i've tried telling him the same another time but it's like he's ignoring me and now i've given up.

but think about it. i can see all these jobs being outsourced. who would you rather have working the phones? i know i'd prefer someone in india for whom this is a career than some gum chewing thug who's just collecting burger money. that being said, the new brunswick call centers are pretty good.

Indian/Pakistani exchange students always call me Bhabi and I love it. Though, I wouldn't hate if some kid calls me with my first name but please no Aunty for me.

sounds like the indian version of dustin's hoffman's THE GRADUATE, of course in your case it would be;

"aunty shabnam, are you trying to seduce me"

GOD! that sounded so wrong.

;)

Taz emailed me this a while back.

There's a reason why I e-mailed it to Abhi. Fetish, maybe? I'm not saying, but I'm just sayin'....

If an AILF fetish means you find Tabu hot, then count me in. Although, the "A" could mean Amma as well as Aunty. For myself, wearing the shirt, I like to think of it as Aunty, because I'm looking forward to being an AILF regardless of whether or not I have kids ;)

If folks keep forcing me to defend Manju's rights(!), I might have to defect over to the brother's side.

C'mon aboard Kobayashi. We Republicans have always known how to have a good time, and some of use could use your help when it comes to sweettalkin' the ladies, men, boys.

(We'll leave the "sweettalkin' the AILF's" to Abhi and the Dems; I mean, that's really sick.)

the title “uncle” or “auntie” just doesn’t cut any ice with me

i'm 100% with you, bro. i've had aunties calling me at 4am touting their amway websites. i'm not kidding.

i'm 100% with you, bro. i've had aunties calling me at 4am touting their amway websites. i'm not kidding.

Ok I had this aunty call and try to sell me some long distance plan. She kept pestering me for ten minutes. All along, I was telling her that I don't use that much anyway. Finally I told her No, I don't want to switch carriers! She switched to Hindi and said "Mujhe to pehle hi pata tha. I am wasting my time".

I mean WTF lady you are disturbing at 9 pm on a Friday night and now you're going to scold me for not buying the shit you're peddling.

Couple of weeks back on a friday nite, I make a quick pit stop at this CVS to buy a pack of Trojans, go to the front desk and there is this Aunty there, and for some inexplicable reason I felt really really embarassed, like I was doing something sinful or shameful. I was a wreck, shuffling back and forth; the primal part of my brain screaming flight and my more evolved part telling me its too late and that its an offense.

She just smiled and reached out for the pack scanned it and said 5.39. There was a twinkle in her eyes as if she knew I was uncomfortable and thought it was funny. I gave her my Amex, took it back, signed the reciept and left. I dont think I will ever go back to that pharmacy again. This is one of those incidents that are seared into your memory though they have no real significance at all. I need a shrink.

Yeah. Next time use cash - don't you know she could read your name on the Amex Card, and then you're in real trouble?

Beige Sage...Next time ask her if she has a daughter.

Will I be going to a hell that I don’t believe in, populated solely by aunties bent on making me miserable?

Ennis my son,

It sounds like there'll be some requisite time in purgatory. But redemption is nigh, for he who forgiveth and is reconciled unto The Sarihadeen shall receive his reward in the Kingdom to come.

part of speech: n.
pron.: 'sa-ree-ha-deen
defn: a global network of middle aged women of subcontinental extraction committed to carrying out marriage focused jihad on nubile brown youths
see also: Auntienet

For the most part, I embrace The Auntiehood. I even love being called Auntie so long as the child involved is less than 5 yrs old. But there are many breeds of Auntie. There are AILFs and there are other moderate Auntie types and then there is The Sarihadeen. Until such time as the progressive Aunties are able to unite against their militaristic counterparts, I see no end to the daily acts of terror against innocent (or rather, not-so-innocent) desi singletons.

However, one of the best lines for combatting The Sarihadeen came to me from an Uncle who said, "Everyone should get married. There's more to life than happiness." But I keep that play in reserve and brandish it only when I sense that "Don't You Want To Have The Babies?" Auntie is setting up for a pass to "So You Want to Die Alone?" Auntie.

At this point things usually get ugly - pallus flying, sambar splattering - and then it's every macaca for herself.

Made-in-brownland desis are immune to the powers of Uncles and Aunties! Maybe because they are the Uncles and Aunties. Muahahahaha!

I probably don't salivate as much as I should, but I am obliging. However, it is SEVERELY stressful when North Indian aunties start talking to little ol' South Indian me in Hindi. Smiling and nodding; it's worked so far.

Well luckily aunties don't call my home at weird hours. But often when they call they don't mention their name and demand to ask who I am.*sigh* But on the whole the aunties(my mother's friends) are ok, because they're mostly significantly younger than my mother. Although my best friend went through the marriage talk routine, I don't get any of that because they probably know what I'm like anyway. :p

Another thing that occured to me - if I'm in a taxi cab in NYC with a date, I never make out or do any kind of PDA if the driver is an elderly desi, especially if it's an elderly sardar. With non-desi drivers I couldn't care less (I'm talking PDA with my date, not the driver, just to be clear).

(I'm talking PDA with my date, not the driver, just to be clear).

Phew thanx for the clarification man! :-)

ennis, i think you shd clarify whether by "aunty" you mean any random desi ladies who are older than you, or people who actually are family (and/or family friends).

because you can hang up on the former, but with the latter, it might result in mahabharat II...

This is hilarious.

JOAT -

Go easy on that next door aunty. She is most likely very lonely, probably assumes you may be too, and on the pretext, offered you friendship.

Though I know what you mean - give them an inch and they WILL take a mile.

This was one of the reasons I left India. I found it hard to maintain a personal, private life there.

It's difficult because if you open up to them and extend friendship - they can take over your life and start advising you on how to act within the parameters of what they deem "indian culture", and then if you keep a respectful distance, they think you are being cold and rude and you may have to go without a helping hand when in need or a hot homemade meal when you are sick.

Boundaries are blurred.

That being said, I bet that aunty next to you was really hurt when she knocked on your door and you did not answer even though you were home. Could it be possible to invite her in for a five minute chat and then say something like, "aunty, I'll be spending the night at my boyfriend's tonite so I have to get ready and go?" Seems like that kind of statement would show her that you are a woman who lives on her own terms and is open about it and thus closed to any kind of prying and advice on how a single Indian woman should act.

That's kind of what I did during my last tenure in India, I acted really bold, but nice, and it kind of put up a natural barrier between me and the aunty types, but still left room for some exchange - on my terms. When they see you might be vulnerable and "shame based" (more on that below), you are prey for them and the cultural police. However, a very straightforward, bold and unashamed woman kind of throws them off kilter and they don't know exactly how to react to that, so they don't.

It works.

Regarding comments 45 by Beige Seige and 52 by Amitabh -

It's all about shame-based cultures versus guilt-based cultures. Something I though alot about during my years in India. I went there guilt-based and came out shame-based, to the point where just recently when me and my bf were purchasing condoms I had the exact same reaction you did above when I saw the cashier was an Indian man, not even an old one. I totally ran out of that store and left my bf to take care of the rest. And was thanking god that I did not know this man and that he did not know I had any contact with India or was practicing an "Indian" religion.

But for me, it is not limited to Indians. I do the same thing in regards to non-Indian people over 60ish. I tend to act more shame-based and conservative in front of old people of any background because I am sensitive to the fact that they grew up in a different era when morals were different and American culture was also more shame-based.

But for Indians I have no age limit. There's a small, intimate, family run Indian restaurant here that I frequent and they know me now. I took a few different male friends there on occasion, though I was hesitant to do so each time. Just recently a new male friend asked me to take him there and my reply was, "they are a conservative family and everytime I go in there I'm with a different man, so it doesn't look good." He's not even Indian and it was hard for him to "get it", and I think he might've even been offended. Anyway, he waited in the car outside while I ordered take-out.

I just find the whole thing a bit disturbing that I'm carrying this shame-based baggage with me wherever I go now, because that was one of the reasons I left India - I couldn't deal with this type of thing. And here I am superimposing the same stuff - UPON MY OWN SELF!!!

I see how it keeps me in a kind of immature, child-like state or mentality, where one feels one has to "sneak around" the authority figures. All of this and I'm in my thirties.

I'm not blaming anyone but myself for taking this on.

In addition to the above; another twist on the word "aunty".

In the area of India where I resided it is not uncommon for young men to have their first sexual experiences with older married women. Hence, there IS INDEED an aunty fetish amongst them, and you will often here them chiding unknown 20-30 something women in the streets, especially if these women appear to be from out of town with a sultry-ish, "hello aaaaauuuuuuuuunnnnnnty", and then a chuckle.

By the way, what does AILF mean? Is it aunty-in-law-fetish ?

Pardesi Gori,
You need therapy. I don't mean this in jest. Get help.

ack, my computer dies the day I'm outed as an aunty coward :)
Beige Sage,
"This is one of those incidents that are seared into your memory though they have no real significance at all. I need a shrink."

Join the club ;)

Sleepy! I was hoping you'd show up sooner or later, given that we are all discussing your post ... Glad you could make it, even if you had to use the library computers ...

PG - AILF is a variant of the term MILF. It is not related to the term ALF.

I have developed a foolproof system for avoiding the legitimate aunty calls - the will-you-drive-across-Toronto-to-save-me-five-cents-on-lemons calls. It's called developing a reputation for incompetence. I happily agree - nay, volunteer - to take on such tasks, and then forget about them entirely. Within three or four reiterations of this approach, the aunty in question, should I volunteer, hopelessly rolls her eyes and says no, that she'll manage, very kind of me, etc.

mwahahah.

That being said, I bet that aunty next to you was really hurt when she knocked on your door and you did not answer even though you were home. Could it be possible to invite her in for a five minute chat and then say something like, "aunty, I'll be spending the night at my boyfriend's tonite so I have to get ready and go?" Seems like that kind of statement would show her that you are a woman who lives on her own terms and is open about it and thus closed to any kind of prying and advice on how a single Indian woman should act.

I simply don't believe in creating lies to avoid people. I believe in being up front and blunt so its honest and in the face. She hasn't knocked on my door since she did it in the beginning when I moved in a few weeks ago. Every time I see her I do chat with her a bit and am respectful. She is well aware that I live on my own terms because she was all beside herself when she learnt I bought the place and I live alone. I'm not responsible for her lonliness and see no point in being bothered by it. Everytime she's caught me I'm off somewhere and every single time she'll make the same statement "Seems like have a lot of friends huh!" Yeah.

Pardesi Gori,
So you think all of this is a result of shame? I don't know, to me it could be a ton of things, respect for instance? A taxi cab driver you're going to be around for 10 minutes maybe, perhaps it wouldn't hurt him to see a PDA but do you really think it's going to change his mind if it's already made up? I don't really think offending people's sensibilities just for the sake of offending them is really that great a way to change people's minds about anything. In some cases yes, being offensive will get a point across and in other cases, you give respect and surprisingly, you often get respect back.
I disagree with my parents and older relatives on a ton of things and I'm certainly not ashamed of who I am, but I also try to have some respect and understanding for where they're coming from...if I'm not losing anything by being respectful. I think we all know when there's a case for standing up and fighting, and when there's not really a reason to throw a hissy fit.
I know couples who have nothing to do with South Asia, they still won't start making out while sitting around with friends or parents. How does that fit in with the shame thing?
If you think your actions stem from "shame" then yeah, that's a problem. I just think it's simplifying things a bit too far to take all these experiences and reducing them to the single feeling of shame. People are a little more complicated than that I think.
o.k. I'm done. Shame, that word gets me every time :)

Holding someone's hand or giving them a hug or light kiss is not disrespectful, nor is buying a condom, yet Amitabh, myself and Beige Sage all feel weird doing these things in front of elder Indians (them) and any-age Indians and any ethnicity old persons (me).

Yeah I think it's shame coz otherwise if it was just a matter of respect, we would feel weird doing in front of anyone - regardless of age or ethnic background, if we really felt these things were disrespectful.

Clearly, the only way to change this is to stage large kiss-a-thons in places where aunties congregate. And snogfests in taxis.

'Holding someone's hand or giving them a hug or light kiss is not disrespectful, nor is buying a condom, yet Amitabh, myself and Beige Sage all feel weird doing these things in front of elder Indians (them) and any-age Indians and any ethnicity old persons (me)'

I appreciate your feelings. However this is not true for all of us neither are all older Indians prudish. This is demonstrated by the risque discussion taking place on this thread with the full knowledge that Yo Uncle is most likely around. Hey even his son is hawking AILF shirts here!. And this is certainly a very positive thing (at least to me). This filial chumminess is representative of that in many many households in India not just in that of Indian Americans.

PG,
"nor is buying a condom"

I agree, no problems there. Even with my aunty phobia, it's still important enough that I have no problems buying them from someone who looks like my mom. My point, people are different, let's not assume we all act the same and feel the same. That's why I put in that little part about it being a problem if we end up making important decisions motivated by feelings of shame.

am i living in bizarro-land, or does it seem that everytime PG says something it's put under the microscope for antidesi stereoptypes, while she's making no more a gerneralizaton than anyone else. what the hell does she need href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003828.html#comment90717"> therapy, for, b/c she's acting a little neurotic around older desis like every other person on this thread? she's doing that b/c she's internalized desiness, obviously.

and the nitpicking comment about "shame". would that even have registered if a brown person said it?

she probably repects and identifies with indian culture more than i do but is being asked to walk a tightrope as thin as dental floss.

All I know is that I've established a very firm boundary with aunties. The minute marriage comes up, I always ask them how their latest piece of family drama is playing out, or remind them of the last time a particular son/daughter-in-law was being bitched out to my long-suffering mother, and then tell them THAT'S why I don't plan on getting married any time soon. If I'm really annoyed, I also point out that it's not their business. And heavens preserve the aunty who's like "you've gained weight", because I have only one response: "I guess it happens to us all haan, aunti ji? You've definitely packed on some pounds around the stomach." My mother's started retreating rapidly (and taking me with her) when she senses one of those scenarios approaching.

I do tend, however, if unprovoked, to tone down my behaviour/language around the aunty/uncle crowd. Force of habit I guess. But I refuse to indulge them beyond the limits of polite behaviour, which does NOT include 3:00 a.m. phone calls.

I actually agree with comment # 69. I don't get it when many here deride Pardesi Gori. I used to think she had some obnoxious history on this blog. Her comments usually include her honest observational takeaways in India. Even though her experience might not reflect the overall reality in India, I have never read her coming back at any of her detractors with reciprocal contempt.

Jilted,

Yeah PG takes it with grace. She deserves better treatment than she gets. She's derided because she's white, a newcomer, and says exactly what she thinks, whether it's conventional or not.

Amitabh, what about calling the nice Gujarati lady 'Didi'? (That works in Punjabi too, right?)

I got called Aunty by this hot eighteen year old in India once. I just know he wanted me. Probably had an AILF shirt and everything.

for that matter, there is this Gujarati lady who runs a convenience store near where I work, and she always says 'Hi Amitabh' whenever I walk in

You can always add "ji" after her name or just use "ji" in talking to her.

The ji term is not ageist.

Manju,
"and the nitpicking comment about "shame". would that even have registered if a brown person said it?"

Maybe it's just me but that was kinda why I reacted the way I did, using a word as strong as shame (and I think it is a very strong word and maybe that's where our differences lie?) to describe our everyday behaviours and actions does provoke a reaction. It usually didn't take very long for someone to come up with self-hatred as a response to a brown person using it in class, it's not right but it happens. Anyway, since I got a rep for being remorseful :) and thinking better of things I've said, I do apologize to Pardesi Gori if I came across as nitpicky, that wasn't the intention. I just think it's a little excessive to take something as small as having issues buying condoms from an aunty and ascribing it to shame, but yeah, anyway it's one of my many pet peeves :)

Actually, that usage of shame, in terms of shame vs. guilt cultures, is an academic one. The idea is that shame cultures are driven more by concerns about reputation, whereas guilt cultures are driven more by concerns about absolute rights and wrongs. I think PG was adapting that here, saying that our actions towards Aunties and Uncles have less to do with our absolute sense of what people older than us deserve and more to do with particular social codes.

On a tangential note - I have noticed (at a couple of parties and 'functions') that people who normally speak with Canadian/American accents switch to a more Indian-sounding one when talking to uncles and aunties. I don't have much contact with uncles/aunties myself, but I've noticed that I tend to Indianize my accent a bit, when I do. I wonder if it's some sort of vestigial sign of respect.

In the area of India where I resided it is not uncommon for young men to have their first sexual experiences with older married women. Hence, there IS INDEED an aunty fetish amongst them, and you will often here them chiding unknown 20-30 something women in the streets, especially if these women appear to be from out of town with a sultry-ish, "hello aaaaauuuuuuuuunnnnnnty", and then a chuckle.

DQ, Jilted and Manju
I am one of those who has put down PG with some not-so-kind words. So guilty as charged. However if you take a look at some of her observations(including the one above), they irritate me helluva lot. They are very prejudical and do not reflect the reality that is India. Indeed, her India is one of snake charmers and elephants.

Now to the assertion that she doen't respond to these put-downs. I think her sole purpose is to come on this board and irritate people like myself by throwing out these archaic comments that insult Indian society. She probably gets a chuckle out of our frustrated responses. Sometimes I wonder why someone who detests India and Indian society spends so much time on this board.

I once called a fat bald desi dude "uncle." He turned out to be one year older than me. Thank god he wasn't an aunty. although, i once made the classic "when are you due" mistake.

Manju,
There is a term EPND-Ever Pregnant No Delivery which is used to describe such fat pot-bellied uncles.

DesiDawg:

the example you give of PG's offensiveness is a case in point for me too. I read it before you objected, and saw no offense at all. As far as I know it's not a stereotype and vaguely negative at best, but I can't speak to it's accuracy. I suppose blacks and hispanics have been stereotyped as hyper-sexual, but indians? although, to my eyes, everyone seems pretty horny in india, but i thought that was because i was brown in brownland as oppossed to brown in whiteland. still, it's no venezuala.

my guess is that if you're part of the tribe (geneticly) you're allowed to make these observations. i recall an indian friend of mine saying that all the "society" housewifes in dehli were having affairs and no one in the group objected. I suppose this observation may have a different twist if he were white.

I guess desi's are like the Zoroastrians and Jews. Thank god you can become an American in a day.

In the area of India where I resided it is not uncommon for young men to have their first sexual experiences with older married women. Hence, there IS INDEED an aunty fetish amongst them, and you will often here them chiding unknown 20-30 something women in the streets, especially if these women appear to be from out of town with a sultry-ish, "hello aaaaauuuuuuuuunnnnnnty", and then a chuckle.

DQ, Jilted and Manju
I am one of those who has put down PG with some not-so-kind words. So guilty as charged. However if you take a look at some of her observations(including the one above), they irritate me helluva lot. They are very prejudical and do not reflect the reality that is India. Indeed, her India is one of snake charmers and elephants

This is not entirely untrue. There is an element of truth to it. In those crowded gullis, extended families...little fun with an aunty goes easily unnoticed.

Also, about fifteen-twenty years ago, the codeword for girlfriend for the rest of the world was "cousin". If somebody was seen or talked too much about a cousin, he/ she was really not a cousin. Today, that is not needed.

I think PG is more informed than most of the commenters here. Her intepretation might be deeply flawed often or she sees things with from her narrow viewpoint at times but she has a grasp on the fundamentals more than lot of them here.

Now, let me give a simple example, how many astute people harp on practice of Sati here while critiquing India/ Hinduism/ Indian culture on SM - a lot of them, sati this, sati that. Read on wikipedia about Sati was really prevalent in its heyday (~ 1% of widows) and since 1947, they have been only 40 cases reported. Now compare such thing to Jonestown or David Koresh's Waco. It is just an example to show that we give a lot of browns a free pass for their ignorance. Consistency, man.

In the area of India where I resided it is not uncommon for young men to have their first sexual experiences with older married women. Hence, there IS INDEED an aunty fetish amongst them, and you will often here them chiding unknown 20-30 something women in the streets, especially if these women appear to be from out of town with a sultry-ish, "hello aaaaauuuuuuuuunnnnnnty", and then a chuckle.

DQ, Jilted and Manju
I am one of those who has put down PG with some not-so-kind words. So guilty as charged. However if you take a look at some of her observations(including the one above), they irritate me helluva lot. They are very prejudical and do not reflect the reality that is India. Indeed, her India is one of snake charmers and elephants

In the comment above, this part was quote from PG, and DesiDawg

lol!

I think PG is more informed than most of the commenters here. Her intepretation might be deeply flawed often or she sees things with from her narrow viewpoint at times but she has a grasp on the fundamentals more than lot of them here.
Now, let me give a simple example, how many astute people harp on practice of Sati here while critiquing India/ Hinduism/ Indian culture on SM - a lot of them, sati this, sati that. Read on wikipedia about Sati was really prevalent in its heyday (~ 1% of widows) and since 1947, they have been only 40 cases reported. Now compare such thing to Jonestown or David Koresh's Waco.It is just an example to show that we give a lot of browns a free pass for their ignorance. Consistency, man.

I dont understand your point?

77. DD
I am a borderline uncle who's spent majority of his life in matrubhumi. I don't find PG's auntie fetish comment offensive at all. It actually seems fairly spot on.
Back in late 80s AILFs were simply known as bhabis.
Many of my, er, friends spent their summer holidays on bhabi-scoring expeditions.
This isn't "I-know-a-friend-who-has-a-friend" type of deal. I have seen it happen many times.
Not a proud moment for us, but them's the facts.

This age/hierarchy thing is ideally supposed to work in reverse too...that is, those who are younger than you should be treated with kindness and sort of 'looked after', for lack of a better term. Those Pakistani oncologists I mentioned in post 36 all treat me like a younger brother. Once I got in a car accident with an older desi dude, it was totally my fault, and although I can't say this with 100% certainty, I think because I was younger than him, his only concern seemed to be if I was OK or not. And when I find out how young some of you guys (BidiSmoker, Shruti, etc.) are it makes me less likely to be harsh in my responses to you if I disagree with you on something (although BidiSmoker would probably call that patronising). But actually, that is stupid of me, since age is not a factor on these blog discussions, we are all on the same playing field here, and once we engage in a discussion we have to treat each other as peers. Plus obviously we can't all know every person's age here. My point is that for those of us who were conditioned this way, age can be a powerful thing.

I dont understand your point?

It was an example of using past India/ South Asia to discuss the problems of present India/ South Asia.

Sometimes, over-blowing a particular problem out of proportion knowingly or unknowlingly.

All this was in the context that is not only PG who can be charged of orientalist.

Just a generic example.

Kush,

Your comments are always levelheaded and fairminded. PG-lynching has become an SM blood sport to the point that I suspect she's taken on the symbolic role of the White Oppressor for some. Whether you agree or disagree with her (and for the most part I tend to strongly disagree with her views on India) her points have almost all been raised by other brown-skinned SM commenters.

Your sister must be super nice because I just say hold on and hang up!

I do it the "seinfeld" way where i ask them for them homephone so that i call them later or something. ;)
Manju uncle, thanks for the t-shirt. gross but funny

There is an element of truth to it. In those crowded gullis, extended families...little fun with an aunty goes easily unnoticed.
Also, about fifteen-twenty years ago, the codeword for girlfriend for the rest of the world was "cousin". If somebody was seen or talked too much about a cousin, he/ she was really not a cousin. Today, that is not needed.

and yes i agree with PG about the "aunty-fetish" or bhabhi-fetish for that matter. Its not something to be proud of but it still happens.

Man, you know there's nothing hotter than a kuri in a salwar kameez. An indian woman in her 30's in a salwar.........pure hotness, the hottest thing ever. And now if she's got a guth, even hotter. And now if she's speaking punjabi/hindi hotter still. And now, and this is my fantasy, if she's making chai....hot

And when I find out how young some of you guys (BidiSmoker, Shruti, etc.) are it makes me less likely to be harsh in my responses to you if I disagree with you on something (although BidiSmoker would probably call that patronising).

Yeh kya baat hain, Amitabh Uncle? I don't need this either. I consciously throw down the gauntlet, so I don't expect any coddling, only civility as a matter of reciprocity, because I'm usually civil. So unless you want me to address you as Amitabh Uncle, carry on as you have been :)

Your comments are always levelheaded and fairminded. PG-lynching has become an SM blood sport to the point that I suspect she's taken on the symbolic role of the White Oppressor for some.

Oh ffs, DQ, please give the melodramatic tone a rest sometimes. I knew PG was not making things up to oppress us or whatever. She's not White Oppressor, she's a cross between White Ignorant and White Creepy. The fact that people respond to her is actually a testament to how much weight they're giving her words. If she were considered nothing but a troll with nothing to contribute then no one would have responded. There was some truth to her comments, so people responded. I see nothing wrong with what sleepy said -- it's something she could have said to any desi person as well. Even when she makes sense, PG's language and tone are hard to stomach on a blog were we value cultural orientation and a certain kind of discretion in the diction. In the end, all I can say is that PG has extensive knowledge of desi cultural performity, and very little about the actual desi mindset. Is that ok to say, or am I still oppressing the white woman?

An indian woman in her 30's in a salwar.........pure hotness, the hottest thing ever. And now if she's got a guth, even hotter. And now if she's speaking punjabi/hindi hotter still. And now, and this is my fantasy, if she's making chai....hot

ummm.... should she be barefoot and pregnant too?

Yes, all the hate piled on Pardesi Gori makes me sick.

Comment #56 by PG is great and I just don't see why the "shame" thing was offensive. Fine "shame" might be a little broad - so simply qualify it! Or one of the meanings of what she says might be negative. But why does the most negative meaning always get assumed when she says it? Almost everyone else gets the benefit of the doubt.
Pardesi Gori just writes a little differently from most people here - speaking more from personal experiences and less from abstract analysis. It's true that she doesn't state all this in her comments and they might appear too broad. So what? Others do that from time to time too.

Perhaps it helps to realize that most of her observations on desis are NOT about ABD's or about other desis in the West. In fact, the context is not Western at all. So, please don't view it through the same lens that a brown American would normally view the comments of an American (especially white American).

As for exotification by her, it's not as broad as some make it out to be. Even if it is, fine, we can talk about it on that thread. Why does this scenario have to happen?- When she makes an excellent point on some other thread, somebody or the other will jump on it with "That's Pardesi Gori again!". I thought that was the point of all this anonymity - we deal with comments on a thread-by-thread basis and on their own merit. What does it matter who made it? Maybe it was the troll from yesterday's thread. If today's is great, we can just talk about it, can't we?

As for people complaining about her changing her handle all the time, is it possible that it's because of all the hatin'? Someone says that "Pardesi Gori" is offensive. Then she becomes "Natural mystic" or something else and people go "No. that 's really PG".

Pardesi Gori's perspective is unique. She clearly has been very observant while in India. She's quite open about the things she dislikes about India . Many Indians also dislike many aspects of Indian culture. Maybe this comes from having to endure it (newsflash- there's plenty about Indian culture that sucks). Not like that tourist who can visit, pick and choose what they like and be politely silent about what they hate.

"Cousin", Kush? Heehee. The main benefit of claiming cousinhood was that cousins can be distant and no one could know whether the person was lying.

ummm.... should she be barefoot and pregnant too?

Sumiti,

If you were to imagine a desi guy in an achkan making you some tea after a long day....I would not begrudge you. Or a WASPy dude in a cardigan, or whatever. Its just an image. To me it has nothing to do with yoked domesticity. A Salwar Kameez, a guth, and making tea aren't inherently images of suppresion to me. I guess you found a totally different meaning for my image than I intended. It was a light hearted comment. I guess it could be taken as you assumed, but that's not the way I wrote it. Wear what you want and don't give an f what I like. Seriously I don't mind for a second. Wear a tiara, wear some $500 shoes, wear sandals, wear those little white skirts, wear a burqa, whatever you want

BTW, sorry for the pissy tone. Unless you were being pissy. In which case, I don't want beef anyway. If anyone needs help liberating themselves from patriarchy, I am down to the extent as a dude I am able to get it. for real

To me it has nothing to do with yoked domesticity.

got it...
i made that comment bc i keep coming across guys who claim to be libertarians but still carry the domesticated wife fantasy not realizing the deep rooted patriarchy in their thinking.

anyhoo, truce!

Nah, I think although I do want the familiarity of some of the aspects of the desi household, I also would not want to be in an unequal relationship. I can't explain the guth thing, it might be a Punjabi theme. I do like chai, and the image is kind of intimate...making tea and all. Anyway, truce honored!

Sahej, what's a guth?

Shruti, I may be a Dharma Queen but I wasn't being melodramatic or singling you out in some way. Beta. Maybe you were the one making white oppression noises, I dunno, but it seems to have been coming from all directions. And no one's arguing PG was being oppressed (except maybe PG) -I'm saying she was being straight out lynched. No time for oppression.

Sumiti, yeah I briefly dated this Bangladeshi guy who told me his most romantic fantasy was based on this desi movie moment where a couple is giving a house party, the guy is in the living room entertaining the guests, his wife is getting a tray out of the oven, and their eyes meet. Bleh.

It means ponytail as in lumbi theri guth, they lal theri parandi ;-)

BTW.....your bf's fantasy could well have included that you and him were a team and had a bunch of nice warm friends over. And maybe their eyes meet so they could plan their rogering when the party was over.... Its at least possible

Hmm Sahej, what exactly do you mean by 'team' and 'nice warm friends'?...you're making me regret I didn't stick around for details...

Dharma,

Why not let your mind should wander over the possibilities...

Just kidding! Warm friends as in people you've known a long time and good conversation.

Geez....

Will I be going to a hell that I don’t believe in, populated solely by aunties bent on making me miserable?

It's like living in a Wodehouse story!

DDiA,

As we say in Bengali, Aunties aren't Bhadralok.

(Not sure Wodehouse ever conceived of the hot young Aunt...)

Folks - Stop calling me Beige Sage. Its BEIGE SIEGE.

So unless you want me to address you as Amitabh Uncle

Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!! Please!

this is gonna sound v dumb but what does 'pavlov' mean?

Every time I read the title of this post I think of pavlova, then I get hungry. I'm guessing you're not comparing aunties to giant meringe-and-cream desserts.

Being in my late twenties I find it very difficult to call anyone who is younger than 40 an 'auntie' or an 'uncle'. There's especially a lot of confusion with people who are less than 10 years older where a person might want to be referred to as uncle/auntie while their spouse wants to be called bhai/bhabi/first name.

So I have many cases where X uncle's wife is Y bhabi and W bhai's wife is Q auntie.

this is gonna sound v dumb but what does 'pavlov' mean?

Tashie, given Ennis' use of the word "salivate", Pavlov refers to the psychologist/physiologist who developed the "classical conditioning" theory. He's implying we're submissive to Aunties or Uncles because that's just what we're trained and conditioned to do instead of acting logically or rationally.

Amitabh:: alrighty then. But I'm telling you, I'll know it if you're holding back or patronizing ;)

It would be unnatural of me if I purposely abstained from expressing my middle-aged, first-gen views on the topic of the infamous desi age hierarchy. I enjoy Sepia Mutiny and try to remain age neutral when writing my posts. I learn a lot from the youth that populates this site just as I learn from my own ABD, my 14-year old daughter. Compared to the knowledge, awareness and sensitivity I have found in the second-generation ABD's, I think my generation that grew up in India was terribly deprived indeed. Some of us, especially the academically inclined, might have had all the knowledge but not the same refined perspective.

Back to my intended comment. Growing up in India, we had the exact same Auntie issues as you do. The more things change,... you know the rest. We resented the subservience to age because the older generation didn't have to do anything to earn it except get old. It was almost a parallel to the caste system.

In the 33 years I have spent in America, the one thing that has become ingrained in me is that value is based on accomplishment. No accident of birth, no biological or sociological quirk is supposed to confer anything on you. There are plenty of exceptions, but America is still a meritocracy that works. So obviously, the Auntie-ji syndrome is in stark contrast with everything that is good and worth preserving about America.

But as I have aged, I must confess I find a certain comfort in some of the rigid Indian values that, ironically, exempt you from meritocracy. It is nice to be respected by the youth for who I am - just a 54 year old man. No need to show further credentials, resumes or past accomplishments. There are a number of groups that I belong to where you are sized up and slotted in the hierarchy according to what you bring to the table. And that's fine. But I cherish my desi society here and in India as a haven where the rules are suspended and respect offered, all for the sake of one little personal attribute, one minor accomplishment that will be freely available to every human being some day - age. And that boys and girls, is egalitarianism of a different feather.

Floridian,

I appreciate your perspective and my parents have voiced similar opinions. In most circumstances, I whole-heartedly act respectfully to older folks. And, if you are like my parents, I do think you present "credentials" when you are within the desi community. You are a father, you have worked for the past 33 years, you are a contributing member of society, and you have 54 years of life experience. Anyone who meets you will likely know these things just by looking at you (not to indicate that looks can't be deceiving, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt). There is no card for these accomplishments but they are all accomplishments that ought to be admired and they are accomplishments that some of us have yet to achieve. So, if you were to offer friendly advice on family, career, or some other area in which you have all this experience, wouldn't it be in my best interest to at least listen? I would only ignore your advice if it was in an area to which I know that you have never been exposed, or if I think you are a complete crack-pot, which is something I very much doubt.

Wow is right.

So far I've learned that I'm six months away from being an old lady (What's up Bidismoker!) so please just excuse me as I cut through some massive childishness:

1. I've been reading this blog for about six months and writing on it for about three (although sporadically because my old ass needs to travel for work and I am too tired what with the advent of age-related diminished capacity to blog on the road--I need my rest if I want to stay regular). I agree with the observation that PardesiGori gets smacked around waaaaaaaaaay tooooooooooooooo much.

Isn't it time to find another activity betas/betis?

2. What is this about Bengalis not believing in Aunties being bhodrolok? That might have been for insular families that did not mingle across cultures. For those families who had ties with different groups--such as the Anglo Indian, Persian, Syrian Chirstian, Jewish, Punjabi and Assamese--the usage of Auntie/Uncle was/is a sign of respect. As in *You are older than me and not related to me, but I will give you the respect and familial attention that I would to my own mashi/mesho, pishi/pishe, etc. or else I will get into all kinds of trouble.*

If DharmaQueen has been taught to view Aunties as something less than desirable (even in jest), please, consider that she espouses a view that is not all that inclusive.

3. Vikram, my new, somewhat younger Punjabi neighbor addresses me as Prithaji, comes over with Trader Joe's snacks and beer. This is awesome, in my opinion. My wish is all of my neighbors, presently and in the future, do the same.

4. Finally, if I were to meet you in person, Floridian, I wouldn't call you Uncle. I would call you Older Brother--unless you specifically asked me to adress you otherwise. So taking a little liberty, thank you Floridian Da, for what you wrote. Elegantly put and to the point.

\"In the area of India where I resided it is not uncommon for young men to have their first sexual experiences with older married women.\"

Are you serious? One may get killed if caught having an affair with a married woman and very few married women will risk their marriage and life to have affairs with young men.
It is true that some young men(teenagers and those in early twenties) in India do fantasize about aunties but it is just that, a fantasy. In India men have strong emotional attachment to their mothers and these aunty fantasies are adolescent or hormonally induced feelings towards their mother but safely displaced onto other older women, maybe some aunties vaguely remind these men of their mother when they were kids --just my theory.

I remember this happened when I was about 17.
This couple (parents' friends) who were both in their early 40s (mind you so were my parents at that time), came over to our place with their 5 year old son.

The lady asked her son to address me as "aunty." Now, personally I don't give a rat's arse as to what one chooses to address me as...mainly because it's highly unlikely that I am ever going to run into or meet these people ever again.

But when I addressed this lady as aunty, she was quite offended...asked me to call her didi or just by her name...(mind you again, that this lady was my mother's age!)

Now I am not one to preach to my parents who stay friends with...but how hypocrite are these people??

A similar situation happened to me when I was in India last year. Lady asking to not be called aunty but then asked her young son to call me aunty...and I was what...20!

Maybe I look too old...but I am just trying to address the hypocrisy of these women here...

Anyway, this is just a terrible rant...delete it if you wish...

Prithadi (I'll take your word for it when you say you're decrepit - as I am merely old, that makes you my didi):

You can't be a Wodehouse fan. W has a great book entitled 'Aunts aren't Gentlemen'. Aunties aren't Bhadralok is my as-close-to-matching riff off that - please see DDiA's comment above.

If there are ethnic or cultural implications to the term 'aunties' (which you seem to indicate), they escape me.

A similar situation happened to me when I was in India last year...I was what...20!

please tell me there was a typo in your post - did you mean "30" or "40"..?

please tell me there was a typo in your post - did you mean "30" or "40"..?

No I meant 20

oh... sorry "brown girl" - i was reading across my multiple screens and associated your post #115 with dharma queen... 21 years just didnt jive with DQ's breadth of life experiences.

Are you serious? One may get killed if caught having an affair with a married woman and very few married women will risk their marriage and life to have affairs with young men. It is true that some young men(teenagers and those in early twenties) in India do fantasize about aunties but it is just that, a fantasy

no . Pardeshi gori is right .this has become quite common in india..and more so in urban india. Most of my friends and friends of friends have one or more story abt their experience with aunties .and i think that some of them are just making story , but some of these stories are true.as i have seen them ..a lot of guys have their sexual experience ( even kissing) with landlord's daughter or landlady .

and i also think that PG has more knowledge abt indian reality than those who lives in US/UK and just come here for vacations .She has lived in india.Though many times her conclusions are wrong or very general . but what she says is more reality based and not theoreical like many others here.

though she thinks too much about indian -male -oppressing-females and wht she think abt indian(hindu) culture is somewhat theoretical .

Prithadi (I'll take your word for it when you say you're decrepit - as I am merely old, that makes you my didi):

You can't be a Wodehouse fan. W has a great book entitled 'Aunts aren't Gentlemen'. Aunties aren't Bhadralok is my as-close-to-matching riff off that - please see DDiA's comment above.

If there are ethnic or cultural implications to the term 'aunties' (which you seem to indicate), they escape me.

DQ,

Sorry: It is because I am decrepit that I missed your reference to *Aunts aren't Gentlemen" altogether. I love Wodehouse but hard for me to rembember things these days ;)

I'll get into the cultural implications for the term *auntie* later, after a nap.

no . Pardeshi gori is right .this has become quite common in india..and more so in urban india. Most of my friends and friends of friends have one or more story abt their experience with aunties .and i think that some of them are just making story , but some of these stories are true.as i have seen them ..a lot of guys have their sexual experience ( even kissing) with landlord's daughter or landlady .

I second this. I've lost track of the stories from guys from India as well. I know of at least 5 totally different guys, 2 from Delhi, 2 from Mumbai and 1 from Madras that have told me similar type stories. In fact one of the guys from Mumbai, a childhood friend got one of the "bhabi's" in his society pregnant. Yup she had the kid, the husband believed it was his and the kid looks exactly like my friend. And it appears the whole "society" they live in knew about this.

To explain to those who questioned why I used various monikers, it's because I found myself getting banned within 2 minutes of posting a comment under the name "pardesi gori". Otherwise, I prefer "pardesi gori", though "bibi # 1" was fun for a while too.

I recently discovered that my IP address changes frequently due to the fact that I'm using dial-up and that explains why I would be banned one day and able to post the very next, and this has been happening for the past two weeks.

Regarding Desi Dawg's comment; "Indeed, her India is one of snake charmers and elephants."
What exactly is WRONG with snake charmers and elephants? Yes, in the area where we reside, snake charmers are not at all un-common and we get the odd elephant gracing us with her slow, elegant trod also.

Semi-nomadic "gypsies" also come through, set up their tents and attempt to earn an honest living through street performance. Is there anything wrong with these scenarios? India is not just INFOSYS and Barrista frappacinos. In fact, the majority of Indians in India are poor people who do not have 24/7 electricity. That's why I fail to understand the angst of the writer who took offense when a non-Indian American asked her, "where you come from is there electricity?". She must've been part of that rare 1% or so who DID GET 24/7 electricity, in which case maybe she was living in a posh 5 star hotel.

It seems there is a large group of Indian Americans who appear to be ashamed of the fact that most of India does not have 24/7 electricity, people still use donkeys to transport bricks for construction, snake charmers still roam village areas to entertain families in their courtyards come evening time, semi-nomadic peoples still travel by foot and set up their tents in villages in order earn a living for their children the way in which their parents earned for them - by providing entertainment to settled people, and yes, elephants are not an un-common site.

What is so hard to digest about all of this? Do not the snake-charmers and goat-herders deserve to breathe the same oxygen as the software engineers and INFOSYS CEOs? What exactly is there to be ashamed of? I fail to understand.

........."Sometimes I wonder why someone who detests India and Indian society spends so much time on this board."..........

I'm not the one living in denial of India's poor, India's nomadic, India's snake-charmers and India's animals roaming the streets. By denying these people and animals you will not be able to wish them away. And why would you want to? This is again, something I fail to understand.

If anyone asks me, "so where you stay is there electricity?" - I don't get upset. I explain that we have more than enough electricity to survive but we are not 24/7 consumers of it like we are when in America, and it has shown us that one does not need 24/7 electricity in order to be happy. One learns to store 3 days amounts of water in advance, in case water is turned off (frequently happens), and yes, it can be physically hard at times, but it's do-able.

What is there to be ashamed or embarrased of? Rather, I think unneccessary consumption of the earth's limited resources should be more a reason for shame than going without.

As regards the "WHITE OPPRESSOR". Please! As if black Americans are any more clued into "desiness" than whites, just by virtue of having more melanin.

I took a Jamaican friend to the DEMYSTIFYING INDIA exhibit/festival and at the end of the day he STILL thought they were talking about Native American Indians! And there is a sizable community of Indians living in Jamaica. Go figure.

So the next time your black (or white) neighbor asks you if you "worship cows", don't get upset, just explain to them that the cow is a sociological symbol in India due to the fact that India has been primarily an agrarian-based society in which cows were central due to their contributions of grazing grass, providing milk which was then used to make protein rich paneer which sustained a population which did not derive alot of protein from animal flesh, and due to this, the cow is RESPECTED, but NOT worshipped as THE ALMIGHTY CREATOR GOD.

Abrahamic religions reserve the word "worship" for God and divine personalities, whereas in Hinduism, the word "puja" can be used for just about anybody, humans or animals, but the context of how it is used is different when applied to Divinty. There's a difference between "go-puja" and "Ishwar-puja" and the difference is well known to a Hindu, but not known to someone who is not familiar with the different concepts of "worship" in Hinduism and is relating that word to their Abrahamic idea of the same.

Break it down and people WILL be able to understand and even relate.

I was not surprised when my African American boyfriend asked me about child marriages in India. He was correct in assuming that many, MANY people still have them - just check out any rural village for confirmation. However, I will be surprised the day when I meet someone and tell them that I reside in India and they say, "so tell me about INFOSYS." Then I would have to tell them that INFOSYS with it's high-tech employees represents a very small minority of people in a country where the majority lives a very rural and quite rustic lifestyle......... and there is absolutely nothing shameful about that - cows, elephants and all!

PG:

However, I will be surprised the day when I meet someone and tell them that I reside in India and they say, "so tell me about INFOSYS." Then I would have to tell them that INFOSYS with it's high-tech employees represents a very small minority of people in a country where the majority lives a very rural and quite rustic lifestyle......... and there is absolutely nothing shameful about that - cows, elephants and all!

Okay, so I related to most of what you said, until I came to this.

It seems odd that you would take the trouble to explain how Infosys is not "typical" India (whatever that might be), and then justify India to them, just in reply to a question about Infosys. Do you take the same trouble to explain how, say, North Carolina is not all RTP, and that there are people who don't have 24/7 electricity just miles from RTP, if some questioned you about Reasearch Triangle Park?

If not, why the cognitive dissonance?

Pardesi Gori aka bibi#1

I will attempt to demolish just two of the casual untruths about India. I have no desire or the time to go line by line through your rant and disprove every single point you make.

That's why I fail to understand the angst of the writer who took offense when a non-Indian American asked her, "where you come from is there electricity?". She must've been part of that rare 1% or so who DID GET 24/7 electricity, in which case maybe she was living in a posh 5 star hotel.

56% of Indians have access to regular electricity. (Source:Indian Power Minsiter, FDI roadshow in NY city, 25/4/2006)

people still use donkeys to transport bricks for construction, snake charmers still roam village areas to entertain families in their courtyards come evening time

India is the #2 market in the world for mobile telephony. 5 million connections are added every month

India has 80 million TV sets. That means 400 million people (average of 5 people per family) have access to public TV

800 movies in Hindi are made each year in Mumbai

I could go on but I rest my case. Like I have said before, you need to stop posting untruths on this board or you will get challenged every time.

DesiDawg, I've lived in India since the early 1990s, so I am well aware of all of this. 56% of all Indians have access to "regular electricity"? Depends on what is meant by "regular". I reside in a small town that up until recently was a village and is very fast becoming what some might refer to as a "suburb" type of environment, but that is stretching the term "suburb" to it's very out limits. Yeah, we have regular electricity. It is regularly going off and on. And our area is known for having the most electricity within, like say 30 kilometers all around us.

Dehli has more electricity, especially if you stay in places like New Friends Colony, Rajouri Gardens, etc. But even then, it is not 24/7. So what? Nothing to be ashamed of.

The "labour class", as it is called in India - the construction workers who transport bricks via donkeys and the domestic workers, etc, are SOMETIMES also seen to be carrying cell phones, so no contradiction there. But I've seen that, again, in the metros and surrounding areas.

If you go into the interior villages, which comprise MOST of India (India is not defined by it's few metros), well, there is less cell phone use, but nowadays it would be more common to see cell phones than home phones (land lines). Still, alot of people take a half kilometer or so walk to the nearest PCO/ISD/STD booth (STD in this context does not stand for Sexually Transmitted Disease).

India is both rural and "high-fi" - often simultaneously within the same village/household/individual.

PG:

In fact, the majority of Indians in India are poor people who do not have 24/7 electricity. That's why I fail to understand the angst of the writer who took offense when a non-Indian American asked her, "where you come from is there electricity?".

*speechless*

PG:

India is both rural and "high-fi" - often simultaneously within the same village/household/individual.

LOL. I have this vision of an Indian riding a bullock-cart while singing in perfect stereo - or do they have surround sound as well as hi-fi?

Venu, "hi-fi" is what UPites term "technology". Took me some getting used to as well.

I agree with venu #125 on all counts regarding PG's #124. Desidawg, what's your point regarding the TV's? Why can't I have access to a TV and also be a using bullock carts/donkeys? I want to mention also that rolling blackouts are considered regular electricity and not necessarily a 24/7 supply. Actually rolling blackouts are better than other forms of "regular" since you'd at least know when it's going to be.

PG:

Are you by any chance White Trash from this post as the tone is awfully similar.

PG:
A word of advice from an Uncle-ji. Why do you have to announce to the world, through your name and your writing, that you are a white woman living in India? Is that persona at all essential to your outpourings on SM? I think you are regarded by some as a cultural infiltrator, even when what you say is often true and always untainted by value judgment. You are also stereotyped, unfairly of course, as a hippie slumming in India with no moral right to pontificate about our culture, even though your 15-year tenure on the streets of India have earned you the right. Heck, in less than fifteen years, we first-generation Indians become experts on American life, politics, economy and culture.

I concur with most of your observations because I have lived the life and still do when I am visiting India. And believe me, I am not ashamed of anything Indian. Since technology leapfrogs over infrastructure, you do see in the "gulleys" of Banaras a street vendor with a basket of vegetables on his head and a cell phone stuck in his ear. Doesn't make India any worse. Heck, I would take 8.9% annual GDP growth and the strong fundamentals fueling the Indian economy over our mature US economy anyday. Besides, a nation's or a culture's worth need not be measured by its economy.

I got a kick out of that term, hi-fi. I understood what it meant. By the way, which UP city? Not Banaras, is it?

I agree with venu #125 on all counts regarding PG's #124. Desidawg, what's your point regarding the TV's? Why can't I have access to a TV and also be a using bullock carts/donkeys?

Kurma,
I was actually responding to PG's assertion about people using snake charmers for entertainment...

I've lived in India since the early 1990s, so I am well aware of all of this. 56% of all Indians have access to "regular electricity"? Depends on what is meant by "regular". I reside in a small town that up until recently was a village and is very fast becoming what some might refer to as a "suburb" type of environment, but that is stretching the term "suburb" to it's very out limits. Yeah, we have regular electricity. It is regularly going off and on. And our area is known for having the most electricity within, like say 30 kilometers all around us.

Pardesi Gori,
First of all accept my sincere apologies. I only take issue with your "selective reporting bias" and not with you.

However, I bet if someone would only look at the quality of life in rural Arkansas and Alabama, that would make the US seem very backward indeed. Maybe you need to explore the Indian cities more?

DD (DesiDawg) -

I'll pose a similar question as Kurma, why can't someone watch TV AND watch a snake charming performance? They can, and they do. Alot of people.

First of all, I'm not the one assuming that snake charmers, brick-carrying donkeys and limited electricity are backwards. YOU are assuming that because that is what you think and that is what you are ashamed of.

I'm not. It's all part of normal life in India.

Your suggestion that I spend more time in the cities - for what exactly? Slightly higher access to electricity? Multi-plex theatres with AC? What benefit would I get from spending more time in metros? What's wrong with the small towns and villages?

That being said, I do spend quite a lot of time in Delhi. Again, the electricity is not 24/7, donkeys still carry bricks there, cows still roam the streets, and yes, there is an occaisonal "gypsy" carrying a wicker basket --- guess what's in the basket? A cobra.

Pardesi Gori - I love your comments. As someone who grew up in India, I think you "GET" it better than most commenters here. You Represent!

I hereby with the powers bestowed upon me as the self appointed president of the Akhal Bharathiya Sanskriti Aur Sampradhay Samiti designate you as official spokesperson of Desilog in Desiland Janata ;)

I hereby with the powers bestowed upon me as the self appointed president of the Akhal Bharathiya Sanskriti Aur Sampradhay Samiti designate you as official spokesperson of Desilog in Desiland Janata ;)

Honour humbly accepted, dhanyavad.

why can't someone watch TV AND watch a snake charming performance? They can, and they do. Alot of people.
Do you know that circus troupes have died out in India due to lack of an audience response? Only in your "village", a lot of people watch a snake charming performance.

First of all, I'm not the one assuming that snake charmers, brick-carrying donkeys and limited electricity are backwards. YOU are assuming that because that is what you think and that is what you are ashamed of.

Really! So using animals for labor instead of loaders and trucks is progress? I guess the whole industrial revolution wasn't really a step forward?

You are right- I am not proud of the backwardness, the poverty and hunger that exists in rural India.

thenks very interisting