A question for readers of Post Secret. Are these picture postcards (as opposed to the actual comment) made by site bloggers or are they made by those who posted the secret?

My secret:
I always put on a brave face but I am scared to go into the basement alone, especially when it is dark and the monkeys are grumpy.

Abhi - the postcards are made by those posting the secret. Postsecret.com doesn't have bloggers - just one guy, Frank, who puts up the postcards he receives. The visuals are all original creations made by people sending in secrets.

Since its inception on January 1, 2005, PostSecret has collected and displayed upwards of 10,000 original pieces of art from people across the United States and some parts of the world (international readers have also been known to send in postcards). The idea of the project is simple: completely anonymous people decorate a postcard and portray a secret that they have never before revealed. There is no restriction on what the content of the secret must be, only that it must be completely truthful and must never have been spoken before. Entries range from admissions of sexual misconduct and criminal activity to confessions of secret desires, embarrassing habits, and hopes and dreams. [wiki]

I've never heard of PostSecret but I can't say I relate much to the sentiment in the image, although I see how one could relate. First, who says it would be easier to be white? Yes, white skin probably affords certain privileges, but if one were to compare individual to individual, we all deal with a lot of the same problems (office politics, family squabbles, relationships, illness, loss of loved ones, etc., etc., etc.) regardless of race. Besides, if I was born white, who's to say I would be born under similar circumstances? I was raised in comfortable circumstances by a close-knit family that happened to be brown. Would I trade that in to be born into a poor coal-mining family in Appalachia? Probably not. I guess my basic point is, as the post card states, that this person thinks it would be easier. One can't know if it will be easier, so we should stop wasting those brain cells that are asking "what if?" and instead use them to figure out how to best play the cards we are dealt by asking "what now?".

My community was born out of love, Sikhs, and have withstood every trial and tribulation. My peeps will give their head before their virsa. Of course, this is not something expected on a personal level, but the values behind it are deep. Khoob khoob sadaa roop!

No grief for this person though, my respects to them!

sriram, i think you make a very good point. one implicit assumption of course is ceteris paribus. another point is that i think in a generation cosmetic surgery and what not might allow people to become whatever race their want (e.g., much more effective and less damanging skin lighteners).

I was raised in comfortable circumstances by a close-knit family that happened to be brown. Would I trade that in to be born into a poor coal-mining family in Appalachia?

Well sais, but I think the question is, would you be better off if you had been born into all the same circumstances you were born into EXCEPT for being white?

"Yes, white skin probably affords certain privileges"

What are you talking about? Dont you know, after MLK stood in Washington DC and said "I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers. That's exactly what happened! MLK couldn't even get to the end of his speech, the little boys and girls joined hands and ran around so much.

Don't pollute the brown-waves with insinuations that previously existing differences continue to persist today in different ways.

I can't diss someone for feeling that way. Must be some circumstances that lead the person to feel that way. Perhaps maturity and experience might fix it. I myself secretly wish I was a man everyday!

I can't diss someone for feeling that way.

that reminds me-- on the random-assed chance that the artist who created this confessional collage reads this blog, i want to make it clear that i was not dissing them. at all.

Perhaps maturity and experience might fix it.

...and a friendly, supportive ear. Sometimes it can be really hard to be the one that stands out in a sea of white faces, no matter how old/experienced you are. Who knows what their day-to-day circumstances are or what kind of support network they may (not) have access to? Hope that person is able to find the encouragement that they deserve.

Umm...the person who created this card could have been white/black/cobblinasian/octoroon etc. I suspect there's no verification process. Even if that is the case, this is not to say there isnt/aren't brown(s) who wouldn't share this sentiment.

My secret is that I am going to take a 2 hour lunch cuz I need to check out a new Argentinian joint in Queens.

I can honestly say that when I was a teenager I shared the sentiment of the person who submitted the postcard. Now I can say I'm proud of being Indian without any question. It took me a little while to get here during the rough years of adolescence when circumstances allowed white friends certain freedoms that I couldn't possibly attain. Now I realize that I had many freedoms as well, I just didn't know they existed. There are many seemingly social "norms" for "Western" society that even as an adult I have not experienced or will not experience out of respect and/or fear of my parents. When faced with decisions that may cause a culture clash in my head, I can be proud of being Indian and have sudden envy of "what could be" had I been a different culture. These moments hurt but can be overcome-- it takes time and understanding.

To envy the group that possesses social privelege is a normal and easy feeling-- but to learn to love what you have and who you are can be very difficult.

All of that aside, what would life be without yogurt, rice, and mango pickle to end dinner????

would you be better off if you had been born into all the same circumstances you were born into EXCEPT for being white?

My answer is specific to my personal experience. I have absolutely nothing to complain about with my lot in life, so aside from superficial things like salary and people's perception of me, the answer is no. I do not think I would be better off.

JOAT also raises a very good point. In my experience, society's insults towards me as a desi man pale in comparison to society's insults towards my sisters, regardless of their race.

I have peeked at their website a few times since it first put it's face out in the publicity machine and have always come away with the feeling that a fair portion of the cards on the site are completely faked.

Maybe by the person who runs the site or most probably by the people who send in the cards.

JayV

glad you posted about this anna... i wrote something about this postcard in my own blog this morning... this Indian gal wishes she was white....because it would be easier...and to be quite honest..I think I agree...that it would've been easier to be white while growing up.. however, at this moment and after growing up and getting past most of the 'growing pain's'..i'm ultimately glad & thankful to have my culture, upbringing, values, and other untangible things that being 'brown' has provided me..

Have you ever wanted to be of a different race, color, sex, creed? I think 99.9% of people have wanted to be in others shoes at some point in their lives... every race has it's own difficulties... the grass only seems greener... although at times you are sure the grass is truly greener on the other side... I found this postcard to be thought provoking..

"offers at least one confession which gives me chills; on September 30, a few of you shivered, too."...

And this is the one that gave you chills? What about the one confessing MURDER right on the same page???

In my experience, society's insults towards me as a desi man pale in comparison to society's insults towards my sisters, regardless of their race.

agreed. most of my female friends have privately sometimes wondered aloud what it would be like to be male. i don't see a symmetric sentiment (publically or privately).

And this is the one that gave you chills? What about the one confessing MURDER right on the same page???

It shouldn't be surprising that I chose the Sepia postcard vs. the sensational.

And this is the one that gave you chills? What about the one confessing MURDER right on the same page???

Exaggerate much? I know this is off-topic, but if you're referring to the postcard I'm thinking of, I believe we're more likely talking about assisted suicide or something. I guess I feel its a fine line for some people, but chill out.

I think the idea of that PostSecret site is pretty cool, even if some of the submissions are faked. I'm glad you turned me on to it. It reminds me of the catharsis that comes from institutional constructions like the South African "Truth & Reconciliation Commission." It's somehow useful to be reminded of the kind of secrets, guilts, and regrets everyone around us is carrying with them all the time, that we don't even know about.

Exaggerate much?

It's probably not even that. I had to go back and reread them to see which one I'd missed. Much more charitable likely interpreation--loved one going into surgery, writer says, "don't worry, you won't feel much pain," loved one doesn't make it out of surgery. No sense of closure, no way of knowing what it was like, guilt at possibly false reassurances, all wrapped up in general grief. That's all.

I thought how true it was when I read it first time. When I was a kid and even now sometimes I think along the lines of 'I wish I had brains bigger', 'I wish my parents were richer', etc., etc. But then immediately I think I have to deal with the cards that are dealt to me. I am sure not insignificant of people feel the same at times.

I love PostSecret and read it often. This is possibly the first postcard I'd seen from someone explicitly desi. Yes, there is no verification process, and some of them may be faked. I do think most postcards are sincere, and that even the faked ones -- though fake to the creator of the card -- reflect sincere sentiments.

When I was a kid and even now sometimes I think along the lines of 'I wish I had brains bigger', 'I wish my parents were richer', etc., etc.

i wonder what % of people around these parts would roll the die if they had to be transformed into the random white person :) i wouldn't take that risk, i'd prolly be stupider :) (and not as good looking :) i think most feel the same. just because we don't have 'white skin privilege' doesn't mean we don't have privilege.

First, who says it would be easier to be white?

every race has it's own difficulties... the grass only seems greener.

On a tangential note, this is one of the reasons I'm against affirmative action. I don't think being black, brown, gay or whatever is overall a worse lot in life than being white.

most of my female friends have privately sometimes wondered aloud what it would be like to be male.

I myself secretly wish I was a man everyday!

I've occassionally asked myself what it would be like to be female, and while I personally shudder at the thought, I don't think it's so bad to be a girl. Statistically speaking, women are more likely to suffer from self-esteem issues and men from narcissism. This might explain why women are more likely to wish they were men than vice versa. Because, honestly, I think women are just as good as men ;)

I love PostSecret. And I'm so glad the PostSecret site doesn't allow discussion of the entries; there's no room for immature judgement like I'm seeing here. Come on, people.

"Perhaps maturity and experience might fix it."

I totally disagree Jane. I consider myself a mature mid-20s working woman who has a great relationship with my family. However, when things come down to me dating and my parents refusing to acknowledge my relationship with a white guy who is NOT a doctor and me wishing that things would be easier if I was white, is an issue of frustration and cultural gap, not maturity and experience on my part. There are plenty of reasons this person might feel this way, many of which that could extend to miscommunication and misunderstanding between the parent and child. I don't think it's fair to look at this person as someone who's an ABCD or "immature" by any means. There are plenty of American born Indians out there that struggle with these cultural issues because that gap between parent and child is never closed or lessened. Or because there is a lack of compromise on either side. It's often frustrating to hear from well-rooted American born Indians that kids should just accept their culture and be proud of it...but when you're exposure has been so limited or when your family and you are not willing to compromise on certain issue and bridge the gap with genuine understanding and love, I can see how some people can get caught up in the never-ending circle of denial and confusion.

Someone should write a PostSecret card about educated SM readers who refuse to use the subjunctive.

brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown, brown. [Link]

I am curious to know, if there is a similar sentiment that religious-minorities in India feel? Does a middle-class Muslim/Sikh/Christian teen feel that life in India would've been better if he/she was a Hindu?

Someone mentioned a coal-mining white-family from Appalachia in a previous comment. I went to Virginia Tech for my undergrad. VT is almost in the heart of coal-mining country near the border of West Virginia. I went there from Qatar, where I had grown up, and in essence it was almost thru the Indians of American origin that I met at VT that I encountered the most obvious discrimination. The majority of white people that I encountered there were in general accepting of who I was. However, the people of Indian-origin were in a sense almost embarrassed to be seen with me. I looked like them, but, was very different. The clothes I wore, the way I spoke, what I knew about America was all very different. Maybe my case was an exception, but, I feel like the way those people treated me was in a way an extension of the sentiment on the post-card. They wanted to be seen as (White) Americans and one way of showing that was probably to show that they had nothing in common with me inspite of the shared racial/cultural heritage.

It's often frustrating to hear from well-rooted American born Indians that kids should just accept their culture and be proud of it...but when you're exposure has been so limited or when your family and you are not willing to compromise on certain issue and bridge the gap with genuine understanding and love, I can see how some people can get caught up in the never-ending circle of denial and confusion.

my personal way is to be me, and then define the world around me... by definition, those around me are those who CHOOSE to be with me.

anyhow this is a philosophical discussion - another time.

"i think most feel the same. just because we don't have 'white skin privilege' doesn't mean we don't have privilege."

You're 100% right. (no sarcasm here) There is class privelage, able-bodied privelage, and all kinds of other privelage in addition to white privelage. But I think the implication in the post card is, [all other things the same] it would be easier. And it works in that direction, because for every rich powerful "brown" guy there's usually a white equivalent, taking the USA as geographical context. Don't get me wrong though, I think wishing you were white, as a way to make things "easier" for yourself is psychologically damaging, but it's a logically sound thought process.

But many whites say the same thing too, "it's so easy for minorities, etc, they get all these special handouts, if I was black it'd be so easy...", and they too have the same implication, that is, with all other things the same, but given the socially stratified history of the country, all things can never be the same. A white one-legged busboy still gets through airport security quicker than a billionaire of muslim descent. A white person doesn't go through their entire life being reminded of his skin color.

A white person doesn't go through their entire life being reminded of his skin color.

that's not true thanks to people like you :) or, to be precise, a non-college educated white person.

It Wasn't Me!

In India, in most cases and most times it doesn't matter what faith you belong to but how much money you have in comparison to the people around you. As long you have money, you have power. With these two things you can get away with anything even if you belong to minorities (There are quite a few such examples if you troll through recent news). So I would say poor people are the ones that get oppressed in India.

what's with some of the meanness, y'all?
I think it's totally human to wish, at some point in your life, for something that you're not. Whether for straight/curly hair, lighter/darker skin, more/less money, fatter/thinner, more/less excitement, taller/shorter, whatever... to be a different race or a different gender, because it may be perceived as easier, is within the same lines. Besides, the point of Post Secret is to air all the little things that people think or feel, yet realize that verbalizing them and having such statements attributed to themselves is probably not socially accepted.

I wish I was 5'1" so I could become a gymnast, walk on my hands, and join the circus.

"that's not true thanks to people like you :) or, to be precise, a non-college educated white person."

Funny, you actually prove my point with your smiley face. If my opinions or "camp" as you like to call it, had nearly the effect that you claim it to have, why joke about it? But the white world view can dismiss me as a "reverse" racist, whatever the hell that means, and call the viewpoint "leftist gibberish." MLK, Malcolm, Medgar Evers, Stokely Carmichael, all these folks constantly "reminded" white people about their skin color - but were dismissed as quickly as they came (three of the four were dismissed by a bullet)

HMF, let's declare a ceasefire until we hit 200 comments on this thread.

I wish I was an immigrant to an imaginary homeland so I could construct my world to my ideals.

Oh.

there's no room for immature judgement like I'm seeing here. Come on, people.

Where do you see immature judgement?? Every person is discussing it with compassion.

I totally disagree Jane. I consider myself a mature mid-20s working woman who has a great relationship with my family. However, when things come down to me dating and my parents refusing to acknowledge my relationship with a white guy who is NOT a doctor and me wishing that things would be easier if I was white, is an issue of frustration and cultural gap, not maturity and experience on my part.

Maturity and experience allows you to manage the cards that are dealt with you rather than experience deep frustration. As we grow up and lose the luxury of throwing our hands up in the air we learn to deal with what and who we are and find creative ways around it. Maturity and experience will eventually allow a person to deal with the frustration and manage the cultural gap. No one says life is a peach. Maturity and experience allows you to shape the world around you rather than define yourself according to the world around you.

coudlnt this be fake "postsecret"?

Guys,
I just posted my first secret. I hope I did it right. Don't judge me.

". Maturity and experience will eventually allow a person to deal with the frustration and manage the cultural gap. No one says life is a peach. Maturity and experience allows you to shape the world around you rather than define yourself according to the world around you."

Jane, this is true. But another question worth asking is, is firefly's "wish to be white to ease things" and the fact that she's in a relationship with a white male entirely uncorrelated throught processes?. Surely one doesn't necessarily imply the other, but it's not clear to me they are completely independent.

If I had my choice I would prefer to be truly brown(er).
Some part of my preference for dark skin is simply aesthetic, but I'm sure it also involves a desire to be more connected to "real" desis... to a community and culture that at times still seems out of reach.
Of course I probably don't truly appreciate what I'd be losing by being darker. Having lived my entire life being able to pass as white, I'm like the stereotypical spoiled rich kid who grew up never understanding the value of money...

I just posted my first secret. I hope I did it right. Don't judge me.

You keep claiming how you have no free time. Yet, somehow, I just don't beleive you.

bd, tanning salons. i know of one biracial woman (light skinned black father, white mother) who tried this out to feel 'more black.'

I know from past summers spent outdoors that I can get remarkably dark with enough sun.
I've never tried the tanning salon thing. That seems creepy somehow... not to mention the fact that too much UV is not good for your skin long term...

I just posted my first secret. I hope I did it right. Don't judge me.

ROFLMAO OMG you kill me...

But another question worth asking is, is firefly's "wish to be white to ease things" and the fact that she's in a relationship with a white male entirely uncorrelated throught processes?

I didn't even think about this. Good question.

This is all very interesting.

I've never wished I was white, although I have wished for other things. As has been said before, I don't think there is anything better about being white. I have had so much luck in life (knock on wood) that I wouldn't trade it for something that I *think* might be better.

If anything, I've wished I was more Indian so I would be better accepted by my desi peers or relatives.

I reread the comments on this post about 6 times before I decided to comment myself. IT WAS ME. that postcard isn't fake and I made it about a week ago after a judge spent 30 minutes of a one hour clerkship interview asking me if i would ever move back to india--indicating his automatic assumption that i was born there and whether i was going to have an arranged marriage. i was there to be interviewed just like any other potential candidate and instead... it just devolved into a discussion about my heritage and not about the law. which frustrated me and drove me to get something off my mind.

i'm the one who combed magazines trying to find the perfect image to indicate my thoughts and then painstakingly pasted my words onto my card.

i appreciate your thoughts of compassion, but in all honesty... its just something i think about everyday. i'm so very proud of my desi identity but there is at least one moment everyday where i wonder if it would be easier to be white. would i be able to go through an interview without being questioned about my heritage? could i possibly have a rational discussion with my parents about my love life? what would it be like to be blonde or a brunette? would i have an easier time putting on makeup? would band-aids actually match my skin tone? would i actually WANT to get tan when i go to the beach?

its all just small things i wonder about... it was just a postcard. it was my secret that i'd been dying to get off my chest... i never anticipated it would create quite the discussion it has. and for that... i truly am sorry if its got you all thinking there's some desi girl self-hating everytime she looks in the mirror... b/c that's not the case.

i don't know how you all are going to respond to this post... perhaps chickpea will email me a note of sympathy? or i'll trigger rounds of "that's such b.s." or "she's making this up." But i don't care. i wanted my secret out and in the open so i sent in a postcard. i hope you don't all make me a pariah for what i've done or the fact that i'm being honest and telling you it was me.

i love this blog and i don't want to have to leave it...

and anna? don't weep for me and don't get chills up your spine... i was just saying what i thought was the truth... doesn't mean i'm not proud to be brown b/c i am.

Damn, that's a ballsy move by you.

i hope you don't all make me a pariah for what i've done or the fact that i'm being honest and telling you it was me.

i love this blog and i don't want to have to leave it...

And why exactly would any (sane) person who reads this blog ask you to leave it or make you a pariah? The whole purpose of the blog is to generate discussion, and you did just that.

that's awful AMU.

though i may have sounded flippant in my earlier comments (also as eponymous_D) it's only because i am not as brave as you as to open up like you have.

my secret: sometimes i wish i didnt have to take it on the chin all the time.

i love this blog and i don't want to have to leave it...

And why exactly would any (sane) person who reads this blog ask you to leave it or make you a pariah? The whole purpose of the blog is to generate discussion, and you did just that.

agreed... that the purpose is to generate discussion but i think i was afraid that people were going to jump on me for feeling the way i do.

agreed... that the purpose is to generate discussion but i think i was afraid that people were going to jump on me for feeling the way i do.

If anything this is one place where if 2 jump on you 20 more will jump on those two. If you read up the vast majority of people understand the sentiment, have felt it at some point or the other and tried to decipher it. You got people thinking and talking. No one is going to attack you for being honest.

And if they do I will personally kick their arse!

Come on! Chin up and just like Sriram said, who would ask you to leave for saying that.

Even I, being born and bred in India, was often found saying to my friends that "Whites have a fair advantage (pun intended) all over the world". I dont say that now because I dont feel that way anymore. It was during my 'American-formative' years that I said those words, only till I found peace walking in my brown shoes.

agreed... that the purpose is to generate discussion but i think i was afraid that people were going to jump on me for feeling the way i do.

Everyone has secrets, and every minority in this country has most likely wondered at some point (and to varying degrees) how much easier life would be as someone white. It is brave of you to out yourself though. Kudos!

i was afraid that people were going to jump on me for feeling the way i do.

I think most of us (ok ok not tryin' to speak for you all) have feelings similar to yours, although they may manifest themselves differently. As I said before I never wished I was white, but I desperately wanted my name to be Sylvia.

Seriously.

P.S. Totally dig the collage.

I still feel ceterus paribus, that wh!tes have it easier. ive thought this a lot. ive just never told anyone...

...never know who will drop in :)

I think most of us (ok ok not tryin' to speak for you all) have feelings similar to yours, although they may manifest themselves differently.

I've always wanted to be The MAN (who is white). That's why I try so hard to use this site in order to be his brown version.

If anything this is one place where if 2 jump on you 20 more will jump on those two.

AMU,

That is so cool. Takes courage to lay claim to a postcard that you thought was anonymous in a community forum (albeit still anonymous.)I have note book pages of postcards I wanted to make and submit, just never got the courage.

"I still feel ceterus paribus, that wh!tes have it easier. ive thought this a lot.."

Not to sound too "lefty" but how exactly is this a point of contention? Eliminating a native population, rebranding the elimination as "settling" or "discovery", and building an economy and infrastructure on forced labor is liable to give one's community relative advantages!

"but I desperately wanted my name to be Sylvia"

This is something I thought of doing a while back, releasing a list of "American-compliant" Indian/South Asian names. And by "white compliant" I mean easy to pronounce. Of course, Indian Christians have a leg up when it comes to the name department, right A n n a?

And by "white compliant" I mean easy to pronounce

there are two issues

1) pronounciability for english speakers
2) familiarity with the name

my name is #1, but, they often it initially cuz they aren't familiar with the name. psychologically when you hear a name like 'john' or 'alex' you don't break it down phonetically, you 'recognize' it and so recall and rememberance is easy. if you have phonetically memorize a name, even if it is easy, people often scramble things. e.g., razib -> rabiz, razid, rasheed, raheem, etc. (when the movie 'juice' was out, 'raheem' was very common).

I think this is a much ado about nothing. Whoa is me for I am not white. If it is a real post, it's probably some insecure teenager who has way too much time on her hands. Nice collage though. Very creative.
How could indian people not love their browness? Our beautiful natural tans that all the white folk wish they could have.

My secret: I can't stand this annoying blog, but I visit anyway.

Interesting view point (again no sarcasm here)

But, I would say names like John and Alex *are* broken down phonetically, even when little white boys and girls are learning it. They just learn them earlier then they learn names like razib. Therefore, your points 1 and 2 are pretty much the same thing. The only thing is, if an unfamiliar name falls into category 1 (that is, the phonemes used in the foreign name exist in the english phonetic alphabet) it becomes easier for it to eventually fall into category 2.

Another issue of familiarity is syllabic emphasis, which is purely taught and remembered, as it's nowhere contained in the actual letters used, so I'm sure you get:

RA-zib
ra-ZEEB

every now and then?

When I say "easy to pronounce" I basically mean sharing phonemes that exist in the English phonetic alphabet, and having vowels with unambiguous phonetic counterparts, such as "A","I",and "U", (E and O can go multiple ways)

Therefore, your points 1 and 2 are pretty much the same thing.

most people know me can say my name really easily after a few tries. this is not true for all brown people from what i have gathered. there is also a contrast between japanese names and chinese names. the former are eventually masterable (although english speakers add emphases where there should be flatness), but the latter are often never mastered (e.g., compare two grad students and their relationship to the white native PI).

Another issue of familiarity is syllabic emphasis, which is purely taught and remembered, as it's nowhere contained in the actual letters used, so I'm sure you get

i don't think this is true actually. 99% of people say ra-ZEEB when they read it aloud for the first time (e.g., doctor's office). when they shorten 99% of the time it is 'zeeb' (i've commented on this as acquaintances/friends do this no matter the social group). it might be a hard-wired bias, or it might be due to the way english emphasizes syllables, but the manglings and pronounciations are not random (they always get 'ra' correct, but tend to mistake 'zib' and replace it with something else).

my dear all mixed up...

i smiled when i saw this:

perhaps chickpea will email me a note of sympathy?

i got my note of kindness yesterday after a rough weekend....

and you know i'm always here for you..my dear..and i'm proud of you and really happy that you let it out.... i understand where you come from...as i mention in my blog... i thought those same things...the grass always seems greener...

sometimes when i was a child... and was frustrated with my fantastic parents (mmom-spicy falafel and dad-baba ganoush), i imagined what life would be like if i was amitabh bachan and parveen babi's kid... (yeah.. jaya badhuri was out!)... i know...brown hindi filmi dream..

Hey!

I saw this postcard and saved it, it really startled me because I love PostSecret and this is the first time a racial/cultural one has been about/by an Indian...

Freaky because it was on the same day that there was a show about Indian girls competing in beauty pageants not allowed to go further because it wasn't felt they would represent NZ accurately...

Even if it was some teenager's melodramatic wish I think there is a grain of 'truth' in there that makes you look again. Sometimes a roughly made postcard can say more than a million essays and books on postcolonial identity.

i loved it, AMU, because it spoke to me too.

i completely understand how you feel!!

On the name issue:

Just to clarify, Sylvia has nothing in common with my real name, it was just something I liked when I was 5.

I'm always intrigued by people who "westernize" their names, whether by choice, or because others have done it for them. Often it's a natural nickname (Sanjay=Jay), but I had to laugh (sorry if you do this) when I heard my cousin Anupama's best friend refer to her as Pam at her wedding. I was like, "Who the F is Pam?"

I emphatically refuse when people who have just met me ask if I have a nickname. I have several, but they're terms of endearment from loved ones, not shortened versions for lazy strangers.

Call it a chip on my shoulder if you must, I've come to terms with that.

HMF,

Asides

:This is something I thought of doing a while back, releasing a list of "American-compliant" Indian/South Asian names. And by "white compliant" I mean easy to pronounce. Of course, Indian Christians have a leg up when it comes to the name department, right A n n a?

Not a sentiment shared by Padikekuddy Shaji Kurilose and Vazhakattan Markoseachhan. ( some Purathana Sooriyani Christhiyanis..)
Here is what Vivek Cherian uses : "We Wake Cherry Ann"
Totally funny!

And big props AMU for saying it was you :)

It's so brave because seeing your postcard posted up on PostSecret would already make you feel exposed, but exposing yourself to the possibility of the trolls that sometimes plague this site is even braver!

I didn't weep for you, maybe had more of a bittersweet smile because that's what it evoked for me.

An inner pride conflicted by outer hesitance because of what the world tells you...

Made me a bit scared of my summer clerkship interviews... I had a similar experience last week when I won some funding for a non-profit business idea I had for helping indigenous and Polynesian kids through drama and writing. Most of the (old white) people who asked me about my idea didn't ask about it at all, just about how long I'd been in the country, how I could speak so well etc.

Very brave to admit your secret alongside your brown pride though :)

..and when I mention my given Christian name, some insist on the existence of "orignal" Indian one.

"Padikekuddy Shaji Kurilose and Vazhakattan Markoseachhan"

huh? Are you saying they're Christian? Most Indian Christians I've met in the US have Christian names, wow, learn something new every day.

"I'm always intrigued by people who "westernize" their names, whether by choice, or because others have done it for them. Often it's a natural nickname (Sanjay=Jay), but I had to laugh (sorry if you do this) when I heard my cousin Anupama's best friend refer to her as Pam at her wedding. I was like, "Who the F is Pam?""

This practice kind of confuses me too. I won't go as far to say that is similar to when black men conked their hair, but it's definitely in that direction.

I won't go as far to say that is similar to when black men conked their hair, but it's definitely in that direction.

Well, I for one am glad that you didn't go quite that far.

I think this is a much ado about nothing. Whoa is me for I am not white. If it is a real post, it's probably some insecure teenager who has way too much time on her hands. Nice collage though. Very creative. How could indian people not love their browness? Our beautiful natural tans that all the white folk wish they could have.

what i wouldn't give to be an angsty teenager again... but alas... i'm not... i'm a grad student. sorry to disappoint...

and thanks for the props on my creativity... give me a can of rubber cement and a couple magazines and i'll be happy for hours.

AMU, ignore the haters. alas, love is silent, but rancor speaks :-)

amu:
just out of curiousity's sake.. how did you find out that your postcard was online on the blog? or was it just by chance you saw it on SM... just wanted to know how you felt about it when you saw it over the internet...

see ya soon in la biblioteca my dear... :)..

chickpea,

how did you find out that your postcard was online on the blog?

i read postsecret every week.

AMU - I haven't experienced your feelings since I was about thirteen, but your honesty in declaring them is very impressive.

A side issue in relation to the interview questions you got: In Canada there are laws against asking inappropriate questions during interviews about race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation etc. Rights to equal treatment are entrenched in the Charter, and employers like this boneheaded judge would be dragged in front of the Human Right Commission. Can someone please explain to me WHAT IS FRIGGING GOING ON in the States?

amu, been there sister!

during my med school interview to ucla, the physician (a psychiatrist i might add!!!) spent a significant amount of time questioning me on whether i would be subject to an arranged marriage and how this would play out on my professional pursuits. what ever happened to "why do you want to be a doctor?"

i most certainly wished i was someone else that day.

On the main issue, All Mixed Up, I feel for you and I wonder if you had more support if you would not feel like that. I think it can be awful lonely to be in situations where you feel, alone, and maybe you think if you were not desi you would not be alone?

side issue,

I've occassionally asked myself what it would be like to be female, and while I personally shudder at the thought, I don't think it's so bad to be a girl.

Well, I wouldn't want to actually change genders, but it'd be cool to communicate emotions and make emotional connections like many women are able. And also it would be nice to not have to prove yourself in the way dudes are expected to have to all the time. Sometimes it'd be cool to just admit I can't do XYZ thing and ask for help. As a dude, not as possible.

-chuckle-

Sahej, are you internalizing this though you do say it better.

..and when you got to put your name down at a noisy restaurant what's the name you randomly choose :-) ?

Dharma Queen,

There are such laws in the US too. But what are you going to do if they do ask such questions in the Interview and you really want the job? You will have to answer to that person's satisfaction or they will not "feel comfortable with you" when writing up your interview report.

Amanda,

You answer the questions, then quietly file a report with whatever regulatory/legal bodies take care of these issues down South. Or you sue the pants off them, whether you get the job or not (isn't sueing the pants off people a national sport down there?) If you get the job and do any of the above - yes, you're going to feel the heat. Better that, though, than going home and wishing you weren't Indian. That's the truly sorry state of affairs.

Im a white guy who married a Desi girl two years ago. During my trip to India several months ago I was reminded of my skin color on an almost hourly basis during trips downtown or to various temples and monuments. It may not have been my skin color necessarily but the juxtaposition of my incredible pale hue was next to my wife's rather dark brown skin tone. Needless to say I was given a window into how my wife feels as one of a few brown people when she accompanies me to church or other functions where the majority of people are white. There were different types of stares during my trip to India: stares of curiosity from strangers, stares of amazement and happiness from children, and rude, angry stares from disapproving locals. It's hard to blame someone for not understanding another person's perspective or point of view if he or she has never been exposed to the same experiences. As Addicus remarked to Scout in To Kill A Mockingbird, "You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view... Until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it. "

The Post Secret is thought provoking and promotes a sensible discussion. In the end people are always facinated with the qualities that they do not possess. White people want to have a rich dark tan, so we sit underneath ultraviolet lights to achieve this goal. Indian matrimonial proposals constantly tout the "Fair-skinned" characteristics of the future bride and fairness cream is sold in cosmetic stores to help women achieve the effect of lightening their skin. As someone mentioned before the grass only seems greener on the other side. There is beauty within all of us and it is only waiting for us to find it. Be yourself.

As someone mentioned before the grass only seems greener on the other side. There is beauty within all of us and it is only waiting for us to find it. Be yourself.

Sorry, Christopher, but my understanding of this postcard is not wishful thinking that life could be better for a desi as someone white; rather that life would be easier. Specifically, that if she had been a white candidate, AMU wouldn't have inappropriately been asked about arranged marriages during an interview. The point is that she couldn't "be herself", because she had already been stereotyped by another.

Comparing this to a white person getting UV treatments to "have a rich dark tan" for aesthetic reasons isn't at all similar. The contexts and power dynamics for thse two identity fantasies are vastly different. More analogous would have been escaping the "rude, angry stares from disapproving locals" that you and your wife received while in India if you had been desi.

What, no shout out to Maisnon?!

i wonder what % of people around these parts would roll the die if they had to be transformed into the random white person :) i wouldn't take that risk, i'd prolly be stupider :) (and not as good looking :) i think most feel the same. just because we don't have 'white skin privilege' doesn't mean we don't have privilege.

Not me, man. The devil you know...is...well...me. :-)

BrooklynBrown - Fair enough, but the postcard is going to evoke different responses and stir up different topics for different people. In my humble opinion there is not necessarily one correct interpretation of that postcard although the author may have intended there to be only one.

Stereotypes are a fact of life. There's nothing we can do about their existence. We can combat them with interaction, knowledge and understanding. I grew up in a suburban college town in Texas and went to a small tree lined liberal arts college in New Jersey. Everyone in Texas assumed I went to a gritty urban school off the Turnpike next to a nuclear power plant, while people in New Jersey assumed I lived on a ranch, rode and horse, and asked where my cowboy boots were. As an American, I am automatically labeled as loud, brash, ignorant, arrogant, and imperialistic by the majority of the world based on the actions of the US government or US citizens that often occurred prior to my existence on this planet. There's nothing I can do about this initial perception, but hopefully people come to the understanding that not all Americans are George Bush or Donald Rumesfeld.

Ignorance abounds and there are idiots everywhere who will say and do stupid things either out of mere ignorance or through a deliberate effort to cause harm. To quote the great physican Sir William Osler, "One of the first essentialls in securing a a good-natured equanimity is not to expect too much of the people amongst whom you dwell. " - Aequanimitas.

that reminds me-- on the random-assed chance that the artist who created this confessional collage reads this blog, i want to make it clear that i was not dissing them. at all.

I reread the comments on this post about 6 times before I decided to comment myself. IT WAS ME.

what are the odds of this ?!

Great post, Christopher. I can't speak for every desi who lives in the West, but I can honestly say that the postcard sentiment is spot on. When you hear about racial abuse in the news and nationalist political parties saying we don't belong here, then you think that we wouldn't have to
put up with this crap if we were white. But I rationalized this sentiment last year after the 7/11 bombings: it was somewhat painful to travel the tube (subway) or buses for the first couple of months, as people would stare at you either scared or angry.

Having said that, I have not felt that doors were closed in my life because I was Indian, much the opposite.

Christopher,

I think the analogy to India is the more appropriate one versus the idea of having a tan. While it might be nice to be browns-skinned from an aethetic point of view, the unfortunate fact is, our color here also marks is negative ways. If only it was a neutral phenotype. Although I think in the generation behind me, things are vastly different, and skin color is almost down to something thats just a superficial difference.

But I think if you were in India, it would be hard for you, depending on the circumstances. I can see how it would give you a window into how your wife might feel here.

Hairy,

I think you're right, probably very similiar sentiment!

and anna? don't weep for me and don't get chills up your spine... i was just saying what i thought was the truth... doesn't mean i'm not proud to be brown b/c i am.

...and please don't tell me how to feel. you created art and i had a reaction to it. i have the right to express myself, just as you do.

i think it's great you came forward and revealed that it was your postcard because it inspired a lot of supportive mutineers to reach out to you, but i can't say that i understand the last part of what i quoted from you. like you, i am proud to be brown, but unlike you, that is EXACTLY why i don't wish that i were white. it's one thing to ponder an easier life, it's quite another to wish for it on a daily basis. still, i'm sorry for your interview experience. many of us have been there and it's awful. i wish it had been easier.

but i can't say that i understand the last part of what i quoted from you.

maybe AMU just means that she does not want to be pitied ... though there is a lot of empathy for the emotions she expresses in the secret, there is also a lot of pity doled out as well

You answer the questions, then quietly file a report with whatever regulatory/legal bodies take care of these issues down South. Or you sue the pants off them, whether you get the job or not (isn't sueing the pants off people a national sport down there?) If you get the job and do any of the above - yes, you're going to feel the heat. Better that, though, than going home and wishing you weren't Indian. That's the truly sorry state of affairs.

So the sue crazy American culture has permeated up north as well. Do you really believe this? A curiosity tangent discussion, albeit inappropriate in nature and despite making the person being interviewed terribly uncomfortable is worthy of suing someone? You don't think for a minute that it's just highly overreacting? And you recommend it even if the person gets the job? Would that really be the right way to start off in a new job?

Being in adverse situations prepares us with the appropriate defenses the next time. One can ignore it and wish s/he were white but if it happens again and again and the person would naturally develop a defense to deal with the issue. At some point something internal kicks in and you stop hating yourself and begin loving yourself. This is what I meant earlier when I said maturity and experience in life eventually makes these insensitive situations better manageable.

AMU are you doing something about how you feel? How do you cope with it once you are past the "well I'm not white" issue?

maybe AMU just means that she does not want to be pitied ... though there is a lot of empathy for the emotions she expresses in the secret, there is also a lot of pity doled out as well

OK, its hard to know what her state of mind might be given the relatively lack of amount of information, which is reasonable. But, we all know this topic cuts a lot of us to the quick. We've _all_ gotten to points where its hard for us for no other reason than we are desi/brown, ect. We've all had those moments when we "look in the mirror". I applaud AMU for bringing this out. Is there pity? Is it directed at her, or it is directed at the choice we're all faced with? No thinking desi has never thought to themselves, wtf is going on when something not cool happens. I remember a friend laughing at me when some ijiot told me I was the color of, you know. This was my best friend, we were in Junior High, and I was never able to be the same around him. My reaction at the time was not to internalize though. Because parrellel to any thing I may have encountered from others, I was brought up to know my history as a desi, and, it was a natural output that I became very proud. Some ijiot calls me something and I go home and remember my mom telling me about Bhagat Singh with tears in her eyes? No contest man.

So I think, there might be some pity in there. Maybe its misplaced. I sure hope its misplaced and that AMU has her sources of strength. To the extent an emphermeral thing can give support, keep your head up AMU.

Peace, Love, and Strength

AMU,
I appreciate your postcard. It reflects a very simple, and very old truth about assimilation. Actually, such expression is probably one of the healthiest ways to express the disquiet someone might feel when placed in a parallel position to the one described.

ANNA

it's one thing to ponder an easier life, it's quite another to wish for it on a daily basis.

AMU are you doing something about how you feel? How do you cope with it once you are past the "well I'm not white" issue?

i don't think i expressed myself fully. i'm PROUD to be desi. i love my identity and what it makes me and who it allows me to be. but sometimes... i wonder what it's like to be not me. it's not about coping... i am who i am. and i'm proud to be who i am. i'm not white, i'll never be white, and that's okay.

Amanda:

There are such laws in the US too. But what are you going to do if they do ask such questions in the Interview and you really want the job? You will have to answer to that person's satisfaction or they will not "feel comfortable with you" when writing up your interview report.

I don't know if there are regulations barring it, but corporations are definitely instituing policies in their HR departments prohibiting such questions being asked. At the last company I worked for, interviewers were prohibited from even asking what ethnicity a candidate was. Their interview had to be based on their own specific skills, work experience, etc. Realistic hindrances to being a successful candidate were discussed, but you couldn't make conversation in the interview and say, "hey, so where are you *originally* from"? You really shouldn't be made to answer such questions.

But there are ways to handle it with tact nonetheless. If they ask you questions about how an arranged marriage would affect your employment you could just say that regardless of the circumstances surrounding your marriage, it would affect your in the same way any employee getting married would, and in any case, it wouldn't affect your job performance. You've answered their question, and still kept your business to yourself. :)

Do you really believe this? A curiosity tangent discussion, albeit inappropriate in nature and despite making the person being interviewed terribly uncomfortable is worthy of suing someone? You don't think for a minute that it's just highly overreacting?

An interview is not the place for the interviewer to satisfy his/her curiosity. You are there to determine if the applicant has the skills necessary for the job. Questions about race, religion, sexuality are bordering on the illegal. Hence, the "overreacting".

Umm...the person who created this card could have been white/black/cobblinasian/octoroon etc. I suspect there's no verification process. Even if that is the case, this is not to say there isnt/aren't brown(s) who wouldn't share this sentiment.

Not to discount that there may be brown people who share this sentiment, but I wondered the same thing when I saw this, having encountered 'educated white progressives' who veiled their own prejudices and insecurities in a pity party for minorities. I knew some who would do their best to convince me that I couldn't get a job, buy a home in a 'good neighborhood' or even walk down the street as easily because of so much societal prejudice against my name and color. In fact, it seemed to really upset them when I said "You know, it's really not THAT bad."

"Christopher,

I think the analogy to India is the more appropriate one versus the idea of having a tan. While it might be nice to be browns-skinned from an aethetic point of view, the unfortunate fact is, our color here also marks is negative ways."

Exactly, this is the same argument I've heard many whites use like, "When I'm on the basketball court in venice beach, they assume I can't play just cuz Im white...." or something thereabouts. Just how important is playing basketball or "having a great tan" when compared to more intrinsic human qualities such as, honesty, integrity, vigilance, etc.. all of which are accorded to white people more disproportionately, a priori

But I think if you were in India, it would be hard for you, depending on the circumstances. I can see how it would give you a window into how your wife might feel here."

I'd say a foggy window at best. The US has a irrefutable, undeniable history of negative treatment against minorities.

I don't see how having a different skin color would be easier per se considering most of the brown teenagers I know act white anyway. It might be easier to be white if the person was constantly stopped in the airport by the color of their skin or got strange looks when mentioning their religion so I think adults would be more likely to have this feeling (and by adults I mean like middle aged). Most adolescents don't even stress they are Indian so maybe this girl shouldn't stress it so much if it bothers her to say the truth. She doesn't have to make a big deal out of it unless her culture plays a huge part in her life.

HMF -

Are black Americans any more clued into desiness than white Americans?

Is it easier for black Americans to pronounce the name Priyamvada Subrahmanian than it is for white Americans?

Do black Americans understand and accept the concept of arranged marriages more than white Americans, and hence, are they less likely to inquire from above mentioned Priyamvada in the cube next to their's at work if she had an arranged marriage?

Why is it white Americans that are by default accused of these things? Is it because the commenters here have very little, if any, exchange with black Americans?

That would be my assumption, because my experience with black Americans is that they are NOT more clued in or even neccessarily more respectful than white Americans of desis/desi cultures.

Anyway, I'm just really wondering about this after reading so many comments about whites in vis.a.vis desis on this site.

JOAT,

Yes I believe this. I am thirty four years old and have had jobs since I was fourteen - and I've never once been subjected to the types of appalling questions people on this board have. I'm convinced this must be because of the equality provisions in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you have no Human Rights Commissions, or their equivalent, down there, then some other legal action MUST be taken. To sit and weep is cowardly. Speaking out and protesting have ways of severely curtailing this sort of behaviour. After all, why should you suffer to get a job you are qualified for? Why should you be subjected to distressing and unfair questioning to obtain what you deserve? Even if you get the job, why should you have had to pay a steeper price for it? A lawsuit - in the absence of other legal alternatives - is to my mind EXACTLY what such situations call for.

"But I think if you were in India, it would be hard for you, depending on the circumstances. I can see how it would give you a window into how your wife might feel here."

.........."I'd say a foggy window at best. The US has a irrefutable, undeniable history of negative treatment against minorities"...........

Um, in many small towns and villages of India, shop-keepers and street-roamers openly yell out "lal bandar", pink moneky, to white people. If it's not that then it's "firangi", "angrez", "videsi", "moti", "putli", whatever.

Where does this happen on such a scale in USA to minorities? Shit! You'd be slapped with a law suit!

And it's not limited to the white firangs either. Plenty of my African friends reported being called out "kalu" to in the streets of India, real loud!

They obviously think we don't know any Hindi.

DesiDancer,
"Whether for straight/curly hair, lighter/darker skin, more/less money, fatter/thinner, more/less excitement, taller/shorter, whatever..."
With your long list of bodily attributes, it almost read as if you wrote "more/less excrement".

senaX,
"what are the odds of this" -- I'm still an unconvinced skeptic. Sorry, AMU, nothing personal, I just don't believe you. Don't feel bad, I don't believe in most things.

Pardesi Gori,

"Are black Americans any more clued into desiness than white Americans? ... Is it because the commenters here have very little, if any, exchange with black Americans?" The newly immigrated Africans are quite aware of Indian culture. The same is not true with European immigrants who seem just as Occidental in outlook and clueless about India as European-Americans (I hate having to say "non-hispanic whites in America"). And, remember that most commenters grew up in white suburbia and not in the black 'hoods.

HMF - By no means did I try to use the tan/fair skin analogy to point out that I know what it's like to be oppressed, because as a WMA (shout out to Pearl Jam) I don't. I may get a small glimpse when I'm put in a situation where I stand out, but I don't get pulled over by the cops if I'm driving a nice car and I don't get stopped every single time at the airport. The US was founded by white men and white men have in large part ruled the corporations and controlled the media since the county's inception, so things are going to be slanted in large part to the white male point of view. Yes there are some inherent advantages to being white, just as there are inherent advantages to being a male. I didn't create these societal prejudices and rules and I certainly did not ask for them.

As for the tan/fair skin bit I was merely pointing out what Spike Lee did in Jungle Fever in that there is often this sense of dissatisfaction with who we are and how we appear physically. In my brief 33 years on this planet I've found that for the most part we as humans are more alike than we would like to admit, both in positive attributes like love and compassion as well as negative values such as hatred and racism. The Spanish and Italians get just as angry about their illegal immigrants from North Africa as the people of Arizona, Texas, and California are about immigrants from Mexico. The point is that we are not as different as we like to think we are. Sure we look different on the outside, we may speak a different language, we may pray in a different way and refer to God by a different name, but deep down in side we all want many of the same things: love, family, happiness, and a Porsche 911 turbo (just kidding).

Meeting people and learning about their culture and background is really the only way to break down the assumptions that exist in everyone's mind. I might like to believe that I am free of all prejudices, but I'm not. I human. I am flawed and assumptions are going to pop into my head based on images perpetuated by television, music, film, and various experiences. The best I can do is to try and put those assumptions aside and just each person on his or her merits. The film Crash probably did a better job illustrating some of these points than my rambling post, so if you have not seen it check it out.

There is nothing wrong with wondering what it's like to be someone else but in the end you are who you are. For what it's worth AMU, I the postcard was though provoking and brought out a lot of good discussion.

"Ernest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

I don't think is some kind of existential issue. Its hard to be a minority. Its hard even if you have money or whatever else you might have. Sometimes you wish the thing that made you different did not make you different. And yes, its because we're all the same, and it hurts to be made to feel different. I think Indian people as much any other group in the US know we are all the same in many ways; because we see the world in kind of two lights; our world is an object lesson in that fact much of the time.

And yet, there is something quite sad about wishing you were not who you are because there is discrimination against you. Once you have felt that, the world is slightly different. To ask that question is not such an easy thing to do. Its deeply painful, and deeply hurtful. I don't think anyone can castigate All Mixed Up, but we can feel in a way upset that this question is asked to us again. Its moments like these, whether on a blog or in some other way brought up, in which you are left really wondering; why? Why is it like this? I wish I had some words of solace to comfort my own unease. It'll pass, but I am left with the question; will it always be thus?

Um, in many small towns and villages of India, shop-keepers and street-roamers openly yell out "lal bandar", pink moneky, to white people. If it's not that then it's "firangi", "angrez", "videsi", "moti", "putli", whatever.

Where does this happen on such a scale in USA to minorities? Shit! You'd be slapped with a law suit!

And it's not limited to the white firangs either. Plenty of my African friends reported being called out "kalu" to in the streets of India, real loud!

HMF - By no means did I try to use the tan/fair skin analogy to point out that I know what it's like to be oppressed, because as a WMA (shout out to Pearl Jam) I don't. I may get a small glimpse when I'm put in a situation where I stand out, but I don't get pulled over by the cops if I'm driving a nice car and I don't get stopped every single time at the airport.

Agreed. Thanks for your honesty.

The US was founded by white men and white men have in large part ruled the corporations and controlled the media since the county's inception, so things are going to be slanted in large part to the white male point of view. Yes there are some inherent advantages to being white, just as there are inherent advantages to being a male.

Let's look at this a bit deeper, the first Europeans to come to the United States were escaping persecution, they were not the elite, nor did they leave in any kind of grand fashion. In fact, they were unprepared for the journey, and wouldn't have survived had the native settlers not been there when they arrived. Since you seem to be a fan of quotes, here's one:

"The Europeans were able to conquer America not because of their military genuis, or their religious motivation, or their ambition or greed. They conquered it by waging unpremediated biological warfare" - Howard Simpson, invisible armies, the impact of disease on American History

I didn't create these societal prejudices and rules and I certainly did not ask for them.

No, you didn't, and no one is asking you or anyone else to feel guilty. Another quote:

"I am not interested in anyone's guilt. Guilt is a luxury we can no longer afford, I know you didn't do it, I didn't do it either, but I am responsible for it because I am a man and a citizen of this country and you are responsible for it, too, for the very same reason." James Baldwin, Playboy interview 1964

Sure we look different on the outside, we may speak a different language, we may pray in a different way and refer to God by a different name, but deep down in side we all want many of the same things:

I agree 100%, but again, call me lefty, if a segment of the population says collectively they "get different things" based on certain differences (and there is sufficient history and evidence to prove this), irrespective of how superficial and "un-genetic" those differences are, it's just as much a responsibility for the group in power to combat that system (if they genuinely believe in an egalitarian society), as it is for the group making the claims in the first place.

Respec

Um, in many small towns and villages of India, shop-keepers and street-roamers openly yell out "lal bandar", pink moneky, to white people. If it's not that then it's "firangi", "angrez", "videsi", "moti", "putli", whatever.

Ever wonder if this could be because of large-scale oppression of Indians during the British Raj. Indeed in many small towns, any white is an angrez. They are not sophisticated enough to distinguish yanks from aussies from brits.

Where does this happen on such a scale in USA to minorities? Shit! You'd be slapped with a law suit!

Get real-in the US, this happens every day in high schools, in factories.... You name it. There wouldn't be courts to hear the cases if every single case of racial slur was the cause for a lawsuit.

Some of these comments are really bad--I cannot imagine asking such questions of a desi during an interview. If it comes up, address the problem. They used to ask women questions about marriage, children, etc., even if the lady was single and ambitious. Now they can't. Things change if you speak up.

HMF commented: "Not to sound too "lefty" but how exactly is this a point of contention? Eliminating a native population, rebranding the elimination as "settling" or "discovery", and building an economy and infrastructure on forced labor is liable to give one's community relative advantages!"

HMF, do you ever stop. (ask a silly question)
Slaveholders formed a very small percentage of whites, and included a few mulattos and a very few blacks; I know that of which I speak for I am descended from both slaves and slave holders; I have wills left by white ancestors leaving property and slaves(!) to their black or mulatto mates, most of which relationships amounted to common law marriages. Do I identify as black? No. Too long ago, too little portion, nor do they regard me as such in any way, obviously.
I also have seen wills left by black and mulatto ancestors which mentioned the disposition of their slaves. They were usually more concerned about having them baptized than freed although both sometimes occurred.

As for the north, there was a significant portion of free blacks. Could be because slavery was not pragmatic there, but the abolitionists were almost all idealistics northerners who looked on southerners as living a crule fantasy of biblical proportions. Even barbarianism.
In any case, the mines and factories were manned mostly by immigrants from Europe and by American (whites), by and large. The American South was pretty much an Anglo version of South America. Until Ford encouraged large numbers of blacks coming up from the south to work in Detroit, blacks were not a huge presence in factories, and when it was, their labor was paid.
In fact, it is well known that the Irish immigrants, both in the north and the south, were used for the more dangerous and dirty jobs because black slaves were more "valuable." This is a matter of record and was mentioned by a black friend who had studied about it.

If the U.S. as a whole benefited from slavery, it was indirectly. Sugar and such was cheaper because of slave labor. The non-plantation part of the U.S. would have progressed just fine WITHOUT slavery and would then have been free of its "legacy" which persists to this day. Slavery is a great a shame on this country, but this is also the first country to outlaw it and to fight a war with the ending of slavery as one of its factors.
I am sure India and every other country in the world has things in its history to be ashamed of. You just seem to resent that Americans did so well for a while in spite of it. Generally speaking people live better here, in a material sense, than they do elsewhere. Otherwise, why the constant influx? I am not a jingoistic patriot and don't really even want to live the rest of my life in the U.S., but I call it as I see it.
The native people were displaced and "unpremeditated biological warfare" was waged against them? Maybe. They had no immunity against certain diseases, Again, a very bad thing, but it is not the first time in history this has happened and if you feel it was so evil, why are you here? You're also part of the waves of immigrants that have been displacing them for centuries. I wouldn't count on your color to exonerate you--the native Americans waged some pretty bloody and genocidal warfare among themselves, despite the current pc warm and fuzzy images of them as corn growing peacnics.
My personal feeling is that a large part of the U.S. should be given back to the native Indians but i think the Mexicans are taking care of that even as we write.

but this is also the first country to outlaw it

With all due respect, that is not quite true. The United Kingdom was the first country to outlaw slavery.

Quote from Wikipedia:

"Following the work of campaigners in the United Kingdom, the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act was passed by Parliament on March 25, 1807. The act imposed a fine of £100 for every slave found aboard a British ship. The intention was to entirely outlaw the slave trade within the whole British Empire. The Slavery Abolition Act, passed on August 23, 1833, outlawed slavery itself in the British colonies. On August 1, 1834 all slaves in the British Empire were emancipated, but still indentured to their former owners in an apprenticeship system which was finally abolished in 1838."

I think I threw up in my mouth a little reading all these comments. I can't believe this many people have wished to be white. The more the Man tries to keep me down, the more I realize how disgusting it is and how glad I am I'm not a part of the oppressive majority. I mean, because someone treats you like crap, you want to be like them? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I know a lot of people are going to get on my case about this comment, but I don't care. Someone needs to point out the idiocy of such a sentiment. It's like saying Jews should wish to be Nazis or ethnic albanians should aspire to be Serbs. This is not a normal healthy reaction to the prejudice in American society. This is a confused, misguided appraisal of the world we live in. If the Man is keeping you down, the solution is not to become one of them, but to rage against them.

Allow me to be the first to flame you for this shrill and spurious nonsense. In my discussion with Vinod on the model minority thread, this is what I referred to -- using Lenin's phrase -- as "Infantile Leftism: a leftism of gestures only, not substance or study." Here's the link to the comment in full.

I can't believe this many educated, interesting and intellectual desis have shared this sentiment. This has basically ruined my day. We obviously have a lot of work to do.

No, you have a lot of work to do. I am busy right now but I can return to this thread in a few hours and give you some pointers.

So glad you asked. Check back later today.

Bidi,
No one here is congratulating AMU on her feelings, and many have gently pointed out that they may be rooted in immaturity etc. But the girl put herself out on this forum in a gutsy way. That's why people don't want to attack her. If you read between the lines, many people here are telling her to grow up.

Someone needs to point out the idiocy of such a sentiment. It's like saying Jews should wish to be Nazis or ethnic albanians should aspire to be Serbs.

Um, there is a sentiment in here whose idiocy needs to be pointed out -- but it's not the one you have in mind.

Bidi,

I don't see it as a larger community problem (except insofar as people are still subjected to such appalling questions during interviews), but as something akin to white and Asian teenagers wishing they were black. It's as aimless and silly as that. People may be exaggerating to express solidarity with AMU, and perhaps also as a concrete extension of the Oppression motif which, from time to time, makes its somewhat ridiculous appearance on the sepia stage. ('We're so oppressed we've always wanted to be white!') Gimme a break. None of the brown kids I hung out with ever expressed this sort of feeling. I expressed it once in an angst-ridden confession to my parents when I was thirteen. Who knows themselves at thirteen? My mom rolled her eyeballs and that was that. I can't recall ever 'feeling' it again.

Reading these comments is becoming rather painful. First off, Bidismoker, I thinking your making an unreasonably large intellectual leap when drawing the analogy between those aspiring to be Nazis and those who might believe that life might be a little less complicated on the other side of the fence. Second, it's not your place to decide whether its right or wrong to have those thoughts, and from your comments it seems like you are passing judgment. This discussion started out questioning why people have those thoughts, and what might be done to change that mode of thinking. Simply saying it's wrong to think that way does not further the discussion with respect to either one of those questions.

because someone treats you like crap, you want to be like them?

It's that feeling of wanting that power for yourself - to be able to be superior to someone else. The ass-kicker, and not the ass-kickee. 'The white people have the power, so I want to be white.'

I'm not saying I agree with it, (I absolutely agree with you, BidiSmoker, but I'm just explaining what I think the mentality behind it to be.

I realize I should probably keep my more extreme thoughts to myself in retrospect.

You should not feel the need to censor yourself. I have no problem with extreme thoughts so long as they further the discussion and are presented in a respectful way. At least for me, whenever someone starts making a comparison to the Nazis, red flags are raised and whatever argument is being made immediately loses a lot of its credibility.

Bidismoker,
Please don't attack ad hominem. You're embarassing yourself. Your tone undermines the validity of your points. I might say that I agree with some of them, by the bye.

Slaveholders formed a very small percentage of whites, and included a few mulattos and a very few blacks; I know that of which I speak for I am descended from both slaves and slave holders; I have wills left by white ancestors leaving property and slaves(!) to their black or mulatto mates, most of which relationships amounted to common law marriages. Do I identify as black? No. Too long ago, too little portion, nor do they regard me as such in any way, obviously. I also have seen wills left by black and mulatto ancestors which mentioned the disposition of their slaves. They were usually more concerned about having them baptized than freed although both sometimes occurred.

Oh hello, slaveholders formed a small percentage for the same reason yacht-owners form a small percentage now, it's a luxury. It's expensive. Just because people didn't own slaves doesn't mean they objected to the principle. Either way, there's sufficient evidence to show the economic strength and infrastructure owes a large amount to slavery - AND it's ramifications. That is, 3/5 compromise to give blacks a lesser vote, Jim Crow, etc... As my man Chris Rock says, when I say slavery, I mean "From 1620 to 1965, plus or minus two weeks depending on when your town got the message"

Slavery is a great a shame on this country, but this is also the first country to outlaw it and to fight a war with the ending of slavery as one of its factors.

AH yes,, Winston Churchill's famous statement very relevant "America can always be counted on to do the right thing, after it's exhausted all other possibilities."
I'd contend that ending slavery was not about recognizing a crime was committed, or that slavery is immoral. It was about practicality. The north couldn't win the war and unify the nation, unless they enlisted these men to fight.

" Again, a very bad thing, but it is not the first time in history this has happened and if you feel it was so evil, why are you here?"

My being here has to do with circumstances I couldn't control. I always love it when right wing people go on and on about how this country is great because it encourages free speech, dialogue and internal critcism,
but as soon as anyone makes use of those rights, they're branded unpatriotic and asked why they're here?

"The native people were displaced and "unpremeditated biological warfare" was waged against them? Maybe"

What maybe? The first Europeans in the US were of the lowest rung in European society, they didn't have access to medicines, didn't wash regularly, weren't hygenic, and brought a plague that decimated 50-60% of the native population?

"You're also part of the waves of immigrants that have been displacing them for centuries"

which is why, when I lived in California I voted for Indian gaming to not pay "theea feaa sheaa" as Arnold put it, because as you verified, they kinda already have.

I think I threw up in my mouth a little reading all these comments. I can't believe this many people have wished to be white. The more the Man tries to keep me down, the more I realize how disgusting it is and how glad I am I'm not a part of the oppressive majority. I mean, because someone treats you like crap, you want to be like them? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I don't understand why some people pray to one god but diss another, I don't understand why some people choose to eat chicken but not beef so on and so forth but I do understand that they are people who are entitled to their POV regardless of how ridiculous I think it is. Without emapthy life is devoid of connections and connections can only be made with people if you take the time to understand and respect their POV. Empathy is a character trait you can develop for free. It doesn't cost money. And you seem in desperate need of some.

But you've never been young and you've never been in a situation that made you wish you were something other than who you are just so you wouldn't have to struggle. Of course you didn't. Reading your rantage makes me put you in a even lower maturity scale than AMU. You think wanting to fit in culturally is the same as wanting to be a Nazi? Jesus think before you write.

What a teaser. I hope you have something better than how writing music reviews for the Boston Globe is helping solve the race problem in American .

WTF I hope you don't expect civility when you can't seem to be civil to save your life?

In related news, my girlfriend tells me I am never again to compare my SIL to Hitler. Or Mussolini. Or Stalin. She hasn't yet stricken Idi Amin from the list, though, so I'm going with that one for now.

I suppose I should grow up one of these days, too.

The more the Man tries to keep me down, the more I realize how disgusting it is and how glad I am I'm not a part of the oppressive majority

This is even funnier now given your apparent contrition. You, my firend, are the true definition of keyboard-gangsta...

I'd contend that ending slavery was not about recognizing a crime was committed, or that slavery is immoral. It was about practicality. The north couldn't win the war and unify the nation, unless they enlisted these men to fight.

Stupid contention. You need a lesson in US history. Yes slavery did end because most Whites in the North found it immoral and ungodly. And that was a big reason for the civil war.

my girlfriend tells me I am never again to compare my SIL to Hitler

You, my firend, are the true definition of keyboard-gangsta...

You guys are killing me.....hahhahaahah

Jilted_manhood,

You are not entirely correct. At the beginning of the war, Lincoln was willing to let the south preserve slavery in some form or another if the states promised not to seceed. After secession, the war began. The Emancipation Proclamation was only issued after public support for the war began to deteriorate and Lincoln needed a broader moral goal for the conflict that extended beyond preservation of the Union. So, while he did believe in the morality of Emancipation, Lincoln was also a political pragmatist and used the issue to gain political clout to continue the war.

The abolitionists were careless of the future of the union. "If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off " was the text they preached. They despised the unionists as people who put self-interest ahead of righteousness, and they considered any measure short of abolition or partition to be a bargain with evil. They baited the unionists with charges of hypocrisy and greed; the unionists responded by accusing the abolitionists of goading the South into secession, and by trying to run them out of town and sometimes to kill them. Before there was a war against the South, there was a war within the North.

That's from The Metaphysical Club, by Louis Menand, a lovely historical text about how ideas, and the willingnesss to contend over ideas, drove the formation of American society.

The picture was complicated. There was a "war within the North," as Menand says, but with time the continuing venality of the Southerners, combined with the economic pressure they applied to the North, united the Northern factions, and gave sufficient impetus for a war.

I guess I just can't understand why that postcard elicited so many favorable actions. It's still reprehensible in my book.

i have seen many (re)actions such as yours which have deemed it reprehensible but i haven't seen one favorable reaction to the postcard ... just because you can see where AMU is coming from and understand the reasons why she felt this way, doesn't mean that you are having a favorable reaction to it

I do think there is a profound disconnect between people like Shruti and myself and the rest of the commenters.

I'll be interested to know whether Shruti endorses your comments in this thread. No infantile leftist, she. Fight your own battles, kid.

dharma queen,

i'm just catching up on the comments. thank you for the following :

JOAT,

Yes I believe this. ... A lawsuit - in the absence of other legal alternatives - is to my mind EXACTLY what such situations call for.

The Emancipation Proclamation was only issued after public support for the war began to deteriorate and Lincoln needed a broader moral goal for the conflict that extended beyond preservation of the Union

More importantly keep the British from entering the wrong side of the war(Which they were seriously considering).

Simple concept. I grew up and went to a Junior High school where i was one of only 2 indian kids in the entire school. Back in the day every image you got about india was negative. You open the book and it talked about cast system. Any video shown in the class showed immense poverty and illiteracy. One of my Anthropology classes showed a video about female infanticide. These were the lenses thru which the world i knew looked at me. I haven't read the entire comment list, but let me step out as one of the few guys you wished I was White(caucasian to be more pc). Was I wrong? Thinking back, yes. But was I wrong to feel the way I felt... Heck NO!!! I had my reasons. Every aspect of my life growing up would have been easier. I would have had more lenient parents who didn't gripe about my one B thru out the year. I wouldn't have had to learn music in strange languages I didn't understand. There would probably have been little to no barrier on which girl I could date... no making fun of curry smell and the list can go on for miles. But i realize that my upbringing has made me a stronger person and i appreciate the values that my indian culture has instilled in me. Ultimately thats what matters, we all go thru stages in life including one where we wished we were someone else. But most of us grow out of it.

I've never once been subjected to the types of appalling questions people on this board have. I'm convinced this must be because of the equality provisions in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you have no Human Rights Commissions, or their equivalent, down there, then some other legal action MUST be taken.

LOL you say down there like we are south of the equator or something. And the EEOC pretty much lays down the rules on employment practices in the United States.

Discussions during an interview can venture into a lot of directions and while it is the responsibility of the interviewer, the person being interviewed needs to take some charge of where the discussion is going. And this is why I said maturity allows someone the ability to navigate these kind of sticky situations.

To prove malice by suing is next to impossible. I'm not a lawyer but the suggestion seems impractical. I'm not questioning the inappropriateness of the questions I'm questioning the ability to really do something substantial about it in the line of "suing" someone. It's just not tangible or feasible. People throw that word "sue" around a lot in the United States and it makes me cring everytime I hear it where it is not exactly necessary. There are plenty of agencies that one can complain to that do take complaints of these kind seriously without trying to make money off a bad situation.

Back in the day every image you got about india was negative. You open the book and it talked about cast system.

i was looking at a 6 year old's multimedia presentation on China (made in MS moviemaker with slide show + voice overlay) the other day. the project needed to include something about wildlife, social practices, sport, clothing, language, art. so the kid had something about a tiger (tigers are getting extinct), a rather gruesome foto of a misshapen foot (they bind women's feet), a shot of a flying monk (kung-fu) etc.

HMF in comment # 44; "Jane, this is true. But another question worth asking is, is firefly's "wish to be white to ease things" and the fact that she's in a relationship with a white male entirely uncorrelated throught processes?. Surely one doesn't necessarily imply the other, but it's not clear to me they are completely independent."

Exactly! How many of us women determine our self-worth, wants, desires, etc. in relation to the men in our lives?
Never before have I ever thought to be something other than what I am until I entered a relationship with an African centric black American man. It would be so much easier for both of us if I were a black woman into the same things he is. It's always in the back of my mind how he probably wishes I were a highly educated professional corporate black woman like the women in his family and the women at his workplace.

I find it very disturbing that otherwise independent, self-confident women become filled with anxiety, doubt and insecurity when paired with men.

As far as women wanting to be men...... well, how come the majority of transvestites and transexuals are men trying to be women? Ever notice that?

haha. self-congratulation for others' errors is a powerful opiate

True that.. but you can't argue that those were\are not issues in India particularly on a cultural level. An older wiser person realizes that that's not all there is to it. But for a teenager image is everything.

I find it very disturbing that otherwise independent, self-confident women become filled with anxiety, doubt and insecurity when paired with men.

If a man questioned himself, tried to make himself better suited for a relationship with a woman and "changed" himself to accommodate the woman would you be as disturbed?

As far as women wanting to be men...... well, how come the majority of transvestites and transexuals are men trying to be women? Ever notice that?

I'm not convinced if the above is true. Perhaps as women we spot male transsexuals better than female transsexuals.

JOAT -

I'm not referring to "self-improvement" in the above. I'm speaking of thoughts like, "if only I were white I my relationship with my boyfriend would be easier to navigate", as in the case of the desi woman with the white non-doctor boyfriend who posted above and expressed a similar sentiment. Or in my specific case, "if only I were a highly educated professional black woman then my relationship with my boyfriend would be easier to navigate and I'd be able to fit into his social circles more".

can i just ask why my maturity is on the line here?

i'm 26. i'm a grad student. i'm not a child. and my postcard reflects what i was thinking at the time. i understand how that can be offensive to someone, but its still what i thought and how i felt. and i'd rather be honest that the thought occurs to me pretty much once a day. that doesn't mean that i'm not thrilled to be desi... or that i don't go to india once a year for at least 2 to 3 weeks to see my family. or that i don't read indian literature, go to temple, dance to indian music, speak fluent hindi, watch hindi movies, or do other things that i like to do. pretty much the only thing i can't do is make a round roti... they're always lopsided ;)

when i said i thought it would be easier... it's because sometimes i get tired of feeling like i'm a walking talking indian wikipedia. there are somethings i dont know. and i won't know. that's just the way it is.

you can "throw up in your mouth" or whatever. i don't really care. but i don't want you all to assume that i'm a teenager who didn't put a lot of thought and time into that postcard because i did.

AMU maturity (at least when I'm referring to it) isn't the opposite of immaturity (childish etc) rather it signifies 'life experience'. A 40 year old has more experience than a 30 year old who has more experience than a 20 year old in navigating uncomfortable situations. If I knew what I know now when I was younger life would definitely have been easier. Once upon a time I was angst ridden over people pestering me about getting married. I got better about responding to that now and it truly only came with time and understanding people and growing up a little.

Dear AMU, i posted earlier that i respect you for laying bare your low moments in so plain a fashion. i imagine there are others on the board who feel the same but feel they have nothing to add or feel there's no need for you to defend your perspective. it must sting after a while to see all these barbs slung your way.

how about we just let AMU do her thing and let her decide if she needs to do some learning/growing, and she can do it in her own time, in the way she pleases...

feminism 101 - let her be the boss of herself.

JOAT:

A 40 year old has more experience than a 30 year old who has more experience than a 20 year old in navigating uncomfortable situations.

Do you really think so? Of course, a 40 year old has lived longer than a 30 year old...but that does not translate into life experience. For example, I have a friend who escaped from war-torn Croatia at 22, buried both her parents, and now has moved back to help her people. I imagine she has more life experience than me, even though I am 15 years older than her.

My $0.02, for what they're worth:

How many people are actually satisfied with their appearance and how they're perceived by the rest of the world? We can have pride in ourselves, our achievements, our lineage, our culture, our environment, our college mascot, our whatever, but in the end how others perceive us (or rather how we perceive these perceptions) DOES make a difference, and this can be due to a whole range of physical characteristics - skin color, hair color, eye color, hair type, body type, weight, height, etc. etc. And yes, of course it would be easier for me if this or that was different, and obviously some of these characteristics figure more prominently than others.

I think most people spend so much time coming to terms with what's in the mirror that it's a freaking miracle anyone gets anything done at all.

BidiSmoker,

For what it's worth, I was pretty taken aback by your initial comments and found them totally inconsistent with your usual tone, and I thought the tone of your retraction was much more in line with your usual internet persona, which brings me to this:

BidiSmoker (#134):

It just really disturbed me that so many people that I had come to respect shared this sentiment.

It's all downhill when you confuse internet persona with personality. For example, I know that I must come off as pretty darned intimidating to most of you - yup... but it would probably astonish you all to learn that I am in fact 5'2", 87 pounds, and...

...what? I don't...?

Oh.

#146:

Maybe it's because we're younger, but we don't seem to have the same view of being Indian as the older ABD's.

For the record, we've had our share of disagreements, and I'm 24.

Do you really think so? Of course, a 40 year old has lived longer than a 30 year old...but that does not translate into life experience. For example, I have a friend who escaped from war-torn Croatia at 22, buried both her parents, and now has moved back to help her people. I imagine she has more life experience than me, even though I am 15 years older than her.

I really do believe this and didn't when I was younger. I believe it because I've learnt the value of listening to my parents and their life experiences and believe very strongly that people who have been around longer might just know a thing or two more than me even if it isn't actual knowledge of something, being around longer gives you a better ability to handle life.

And there will always be exceptions but the average 22 year old has not has as much life experience as your friend just as the 22 year old newcomers that start in the corporate world around here. They still lack real world working experience as someone older.

whoa! ack! help! Someone delete #146, please!

I mean #163!

"Stupid contention. You need a lesson in US history. Yes slavery did end because most Whites in the North found it immoral and ungodly. And that was a big reason for the civil war."

Quoted from the US archives:

"Despite this expansive wording, the Emancipation Proclamation was limited in many ways. It applied only to states that had seceded from the Union, leaving slavery untouched in the loyal border states. It also expressly exempted parts of the Confederacy that had already come under Northern control. Most important, the freedom it promised depended upon Union military victory."

That doesn't sound like someone who's morally opposed to the institution of slavery.

Are black Americans any more clued into desiness than white Americans?

in specifics, no, in a general sense yes, that is, they know what it's like to be a minority culture in a majority demographic, that has had a documented history of mistreating minorities.

Is it easier for black Americans to pronounce the name Priyamvada Subrahmanian than it is for white Americans?

No, and they too may have misconceptions regarding pronounciations, etc... but what they wont have is a feeling that their way is the "normal" correct way. They have experience of having their own "culture" as separate from the "normal, average" way.

I remember I wrote a story about a character that goes between being Indian and being western (a topic that has been mined over and over again, I know) but the person evaluating didn'tt understand and asked the question "Does she want to be Indian, or normal?" See the mentality? white = normal, and that'd be ok if white was a naturally developed categorization, instead of a power-based imposed one.

And there will always be exceptions but the average 22 year old has not has as much life experience

why are the pots and kettles talking about maturity and age?
i don't think you can make any generalizations about maturity based on age unless you have at least a generational age gap ...
but aren't most of the people on this sight in the 25-35 age range? at least, isn't that the average age range?

I do think there is a profound disconnect between people like Shruti and myself and the rest of the commenters. Maybe it's because we're younger, but we don't seem to have the same view of being Indian as the older ABD's.

I'll be interested to know whether Shruti endorses your comments in this thread.

BidiSmoker, I know you've already admitted your lack of civility in those comments and have already been carved by other people. I'm just really amused by this whole thing because as much as I don't want to rub salt into the wound, I have some information that is going to make the fact that you spoke for me even sillier: Until 4 years ago, I was the biggest white supremacist and internalized racist you'd have ever met. Not just because being white would have been easier, but because it would have made me better. And because Indians were ugly and backwards. And I'm not an ABD - I came here when I was six, and my parents raised me with, you know, the stereotypical Bihari values. I didn't even grow up around white people somewhere out in the middle of Bumblefuck, USA. I grew up in LA, going to elementary schools that were predominantly Latnio/Chicano and East Asian. Only two white people in 5 years. And I still wanted nothing more in the world than to be white.

After fours years of anorexia, bulimia, hate for all white people by default, having my ass schooled by the strength, wisdom and compassion of some key figures in my life that were white, militant activism for Asians/WOC/environmental sustainability, and a selectively leftist college education (during which all of the above happened, in that order), I know I'm a leftist and proud to be whatever I was born as.

I'm also acutely aware of how useless and patronizing infantile leftism can be to the people who it claims to defend/represent (you see how the assumption of representation already makes it problematic?). From my organizing experiences, I've realized how disconnected I am from the people I'm defending - people who I identify with - because of differences in privilege. Sometimes I'm the disprivileged (i.e. amongst white liberal environmentalists), but most of the time I'm the one who has too much privilege to be speaking for the people I identify with, even if they are women of color. I can't understand the depth of their struggle because it is nuanced differently from mine. I'm staying left, and I'm going to keep organizing, but if I don't keep an open mind, then I'm doing everyone a disservice.

What I'm trying to say is that leftist gestures have their own important function (mostly for galvanizing and showing support), but we as people can't function on a practical level on gestures alone. The knee-jerk reactions are useful for inner motivation, but when used to make conclusions about the practical world, they make all the conclusions sound the same. For me, knowing but denying that not everything should be reduced to the same conclusion created a lot of cognative dissonance. It either makes you empty because you stop thinking, or it makes you angsty because you know there's something missing that you may not be able to admit to yourself. Philosophy privileges itself over action, and theoretical reasoning is too simplistic to account for, or used to oversimplify, the multidemnsional reality of our lives.

Going back to the heart of the issue, I know that there are other people of color, including desis, who still feel the way I used to feel about race, but that doesn't mean that AMU's experience was anything like mine. In all the comments she's posted here, she hasn't revealed much beyond the "I'm proud to be desi, but I just wonder..." sentiment, so that's all we got - we got no right making assumptions. I see nothing wrong with having a [insert adjective] reaction to AMU's postcard, but casting judgement on her life and character is uncalled for.
...sorry I wrote the King James version of my comment

Amusing to see desis whining about their low caste status outside the indian subcontinent :)

Instead of playing the innocent victims of "unjust" discrimination, how about looking at it as karmic blowback for the abominable way low castes are treated in India? After all, what goes around comes around; as you do to others so will be done to you.....isnt this the just, universal law of karma?

Interesting that it did not occur to anyone of you that the low castes of India suffer far greater humiliations and indignities than desis do in racist america, and much of the rest of the world.

Shruti,

amazing post.

After fours years of anorexia, bulimia, hate for all white people by default, having my ass schooled by the strength, wisdom and compassion of some key figures in my life that were white

As much as it may shock people around here, I do not "hate all white people by default" either, although I did go through a similar phase (except the eating disorder part).

how about looking at it as karmic blowback for the abominable way low castes are treated in India?

This is ridiculous, then what about the low castes meeting the same treatment in the US? shouldn't they be billionaires here? First of all you have an immature understanding of karma. neglecting that the word means "action" itself. Even if karma places you into a sub-standard situation, that doesn't, and shouldn't preclude one from doing something about it.

HMF, I sure hope you don't, that kind of stuff is very counter-productive. You gotta reject the dark side of the Force dude!

AMU,

As my man Rakim once said, "Don't sweat the technique". Your postcard struck a nerve and provided many topics for discussion, including several tangents regarding the real reasons behind the Emancipation Proclamation and the Civil War (uh War Between the States...that's a Rocky and Bullwinkle reference to the fact that there was "nothing civil about it."). Here I thought it was all about slavery.....at least until I saw on Fox News that it was a cabal-like plot by the Democrats to keep the price of powdered whigs down (Zoolander). I still like the Simpsons explanation when Apu is taking his citizenship test and starts into a diatribe about the social and economic implications of the war and the examiner simply replies, "Slavery, just say slavery."

All this intellectual rambling is making my inferior public-high-school-educated brain hurt. I've got to frame the Che Guevara posters in my room and alphabetize my collecion of Satre novels.

"All I need to know is that a man is a human being - that is enough for me; he can't be much worse." - Mark Twain

"That's what she said." - Michael Scott

You just used an Apu reference in the thread (partially) about growing up desi..... Why not friggen qoute Jhumpa Lahiri at the very least

Because his reaction to Apu (is most probably) much different than someone with a desi background, growing up here. For group A to understand group B's disposition takes much time and humility. But even I won't deny a certain amount of progress, considering it began as:

"Goodness Gracious! Was anybody hurt?"

"No'm, just a n*gg*r"

- Mark Twain

Is helping improverished children just an infantile leftist gesture?

Not in the least. It is most commendable. But my tendency is to assume the best of people anyway. I'm not surprised that you do good stuff. The comments I made were based on the things you've said here, just as we all comment here on what other people say here. Ultimately this is not about personality, but about politics. You said something nasty to AMU, and then you retracted it. That's all good, and it speaks well to your personality. We all say stupid shit sometimes.

But the underlying issue is political. You presented a political worldview that struck me, and clearly others, as a classic example of "infantile leftism" in the sense that term was deployed in in the other thread. There, Vinod was repudiating a whole range of arguments by reducing them to the "straw man" of conspiracy theories about "The Man." I and others argued why that is a ridiculous reduction. They you turn up ranting and raving about... "The Man," and basically about how white people are all oppressors and not to be trusted, not to mention the more absurd connections that you drew and have since retracted. You became Example A of precisely what Vinod was using to discredit a wide range of considered and intelligent opinion. Unproductive, at best.

On the personality stuff, man, there's no problem. You're obviously a good brother, and besides, none of us is qualified as an ultimate arbiter of personality. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, etc. But the political discussion remains.

Peace

A very interesting post. Though again, it frustrates me to no end that you and siddartha think that you can assume that I make "infantile leftist gestures only" without knowing the first thing about me. I left college for a years to work as a teacher in a impoverished public school. I volunteer at an orphanage every week. I fund-raise for a destitute children's home in Coonoor. I might not be quite sophisticated as you people but I try to do my part. Is helping improverished children just an infantile leftist gesture?

dear bidismoker - i've gone to bat for you before (i think even a year back when we both had different noms-de-plume) because i've got good vibes off the net on you - but as my Teacher told me, "you must not just BE good, you must look good also". There were some rash words you said. It is possible to recover but take it on the chin. A plain non-verbose apology would have sufficed. but you need to do build some fortitude old boy. i'd recommend a pilgrimage to sabarimala .

I don't know that what Bidi said deserves all of these cries of 'shame!shame!'. He spoke his thoughts as honestly as AMU and, like he has already said, he didn't mean to attack her or cause offense to anyone else. His analogies were extreme but he's twenty-four. At twenty-four I walked around with a shirt with a picture of Malcolm X pointing a gun out a window on it and the words 'By Any Means Necessary'. And do we only want warm and fuzzy sentiments expressed on this site? Give the kid a break.

You mean this?

http://img.thefreedictionary.com/thumb/7/79/Malcomxm1carbine.gif

DQ, Whats wrong with wearing such a shirt? I wouldn't consider that picture extreme, during that time, Malcolm felt his life was in danger, both from the NOI and white racists, his house was firebombed. Notice he's in his house peering out, it's defense.

I know the thread's kinda moved on, but I feel I have to respond to Pardesi Gori's #154:

As far as women wanting to be men...... well, how come the majority of transvestites and transexuals are men trying to be women? Ever notice that?

Although in our culture transwomen are much more visible, both on the street and in the mass media, this does not mean that they are a majority. There are many reasons for this, some having to do with the general rule that, as JOAT said reversedly in #156, transmen pass in daily life much more easily than transwomen. It also has to do with the stories our culture privileges, what our culture thinks is a joke, tragic, threatening, etc. So although (because of the stigma attached to cross-dressing or transitioning) there are no solid numbers on trans folks, transwomen are by no means a clear majority.

Also - I'm sure you typed your comment without thinking too much about it, but the phrasing "men trying to be women" is incorrect and deeply hurtful to trans folks. Transwomen and even male cross-dressers are not "men trying to be women." Men cross-dress for a variety of reasons, but I don't think any of them would say they are trying to be women while doing so. And transwomen are not "men trying to be women" - they feel they ARE women, and are simply trying to live that way, recognized by the larger world as such.

I don't want to hijack this thread into a discussion about transsexuality or transgenderism, but I would like to say that we all speak from a position of some privilege(s) - and for most of us, one of these is the privilege of being non-trans.

But just because you don't agree with my comments doesn't mean you have some special insight into my character.

BidiSmoker, my whole long comment wasn't a lecture at you. It was a mixed response to you, Siddhartha and the topic of the post. The story was for AMU and everyone else, the discussion of infantile leftism was for Siddhartha and the general contrarian nature of the comment was for you. The reason I felt the need to be contrarian was because you spoke for me when you said that you and I had something in common (age) that disconnected us from the rest of the older commenters who sympathized with AMU. I just wanted to say that I sympathized with her too, and age had little to do with it. I also felt the need because ever since revealing my age, I've been wary of people infantalizing, patronizing, and/or dismissing me because they assume my perspective is narrow and limited. Hope that clears things up. I'm still on your general "side". I never doubted you're a good guy, and certainly never assumed anything about your personality or offline character. Peace, bro :)

Lizzie, thanks for your comment. I know it's a bit a of a threadjack, but I also cringed when I saw "transvestites and transexuals are men trying to be women". Those identifiers are all wrong, and don't even consider deliberate genderqueerness and transgender passing privilege. Reppin' for my trans homies, I just gotta say that y'all know more transgendered people than you think ;)

The Association of Indians in America launched a successful campaign to have Asian Indians included within the "Asian or Pacific Islander" category rather than the "Caucasian/White" category in the census, believing that the conferring of this minority status would bring benefits to the community. Accordingly, Asian Indians are today classified under the "Asian or Pacific Islander" category.

http://www.everyculture.com/multi/A-Br/Asian-Indian-Americans.html

Instead of playing the innocent victims of "unjust" discrimination, how about looking at it as karmic blowback for the abominable way low castes are treated in India? After all, what goes around comes around; as you do to others so will be done to you.....isnt this the just, universal law of karma?

Macacaroach - Gandhi said the exact same thing in regards to Indians in South Africa at his time.

...Is it easier for black Americans to pronounce the name Priyamvada Subrahmanian than it is for white Americans?...

No, and they too may have misconceptions regarding pronounciations, etc... but what they wont have is a feeling that their way is the "normal" correct way. They have experience of having their own "culture" as separate from the "normal, average" way.

Um, is this your personal experience or are you just assuming?

Lizzie and Shruti,

Transgender is different from transvestite and transexual, although a transgendered individual may opt for either or both.

I know a few transgendered persons and I understand the difference.

If I inadvertently offended either of you - I'm sorry. In my experience I have met more men than women who desire to be the opposite gender, though of course, my experience is not universal. Any statistics on this?

PG,

it's observed and pretty damn obvious too. How many black comedians make jokes about their existence being wildly different than the mainstream. "White people do this.. black people do this..." Every black comedian in the 90s more or less got by on this model alone (with the exception of Chris Rock, and other greats). It's been done so much that now people think its hack material.

HMF

I am not sure if this is related, over 90% of Indians said they'd like to be born as Indians again given a choice, in a poll by Times of India.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2070264.cms

Of course they must have had their 'moments' too, when they wished they were somewhere else :) ...

HMF

The black Americans in my social circles (ALOT) do not see Indian culture as "normal". In fact, my experience is that more white Americans than black express a respectful interest in India's cultures.

But again, this is just my experience within my social network.

I've seen alot of tension and stress between black Americans and Indian Americans regarding things like lifestyle and particularly sexual morality.

Though Indians may draw from black Americans' struggle for equal rights, still, I find it out that professionals living very comfy lives try to identify so much with non-pros who are struggling.

"The black Americans in my social circles (ALOT) do not see Indian culture as "normal". In fact, my experience is that more white Americans than black express a respectful interest in India's cultures."

I never claimed this. I said black Americans know what it's like to have their behavior/culture treated as abnormal.

"I've seen alot of tension and stress between black Americans and Indian Americans regarding things like lifestyle and particularly sexual morality."

Just because two people are shat on by the same third person, doesn't mean they can't have differences amongst themselves. Look at Saddam and Osama, both hate the US, but don't really get along themselves either....

ok - what in the name of bodisatva is a pecola. wikipedia sez it is an anthropomorphic penguin and i am cofnused. vy vould vous vant to veep, anna?

i'm surmising here mr. hairy that it is because a penguin is black on the outside but white on the inside.. hence a feeling of wanting to be white? who the holy lima beans knows? but that is just my take of it... here is a pic of the pecola you are referring to from the tv show...

but then i came across this story..called the bluest eye..in which the character pecola who is black, yearns to have blonde hair/blue eyes...

both intrepretations are good in my opinion..but then again.. i'm not the author of the post.

hope you are well mr. hairy! go eat some mangoosteens for moi ;)

Sahej - the point about the Simpsons reference was not meant to be a comment on desis or growing up desi. Since I grew up as a priveleged upper middle class white boy I have no idea what that is like, other than being pushed into the Debate club, Academic Decathlon, MathCounts, and taking the PSAT and SAT a year early for "practice". Seriously though I have no real personal experience about what it is like to be disenfranchised, oppressed, or discriminated against. The closest I've come is getting a lot of awkward stares when I went to India with my wife and her family and I know that does not really count. I merely meant to point out the overly simplistic, instant-oatmeal version of history that we as Americans (I do mean all of us not just privileged upper middle class white boys like myself) are spoon fed in high school. I realize the Simpsons, as a cartoon television show, would hardly qualify in a proper debate, but I thought this thread could use a little more humor.

Penguins are both white and black on the outside and judging from the movie March of the Penguins I think the only things a penguin cares about is staying warm, not breaking that egg, and not getting eaten by a seal or a shark.

"One Love. One Heart. Let's get together and feel alright" - B Marley

Chris,

Not knowing your tone, I apologize if I misread you. In fact I was not making a strong statement one way or another, it was a mild joke. I do think though that most people do already know we're all the same. I'm not really sure if there too many more places this conversation on the thread is going to go, but like you I'm interested in what other people think. I really have enjoyed your perspective. Cheers bro

HMF brah, I want to give you some advice. This might seem presumptious but take it with a grain of salt. Use outrage, don't let outrage use you. The time will come when you will be tested, and you'll know it, because the wind will get knocked out of you, and you'll go down on one knee. Consider these moments a blessing because then you'll be in it for real. Do not waste your strength on battles that don't need to be fought. Learn from everything around you. You do have a lot to learn still man. That's not a knock on you, but it should actually be a relief. You'll never save anyone no matter how many words you write or what thoughts you think. We're all in this together, every last creature. Some people will help and some will hurt each other, and it might not be who you expect. Discount no one.

Peace One Love; We're all Related

Lizzie and Shruti,

Transgender is different from transvestite and transexual, although a transgendered individual may opt for either or both.

I know a few transgendered persons and I understand the difference.

If I inadvertently offended either of you - I'm sorry. In my experience I have met more men than women who desire to be the opposite gender, though of course, my experience is not universal. Any statistics on this?

As a male-to-female transsexual I would like to voice my opinion on this issue of terminology, not as an expert, but as someone who is forced to use these terms to describe herself to others. (And because my friend Shruti does not like to speak for others, something about the subaltern or what not ;)

First, transgender is an umbrella term which encapsulates a number of terms, including crossdressers, transsexuals, transvestites, intersexed individuals, etc. Whereas transsexuals and transvestites are more specific peoples within the transgender population. Transgendered individuals transcend, go beyond what is perceived as gender, that is the gender binary; whereas transsexuals, are the ones who actually desire to transcend/transform to the other "sex", or what society deems as the signifier of sex, the genitalia.

As for the issue of male to female transsexuals outnumbering female to male transsexuals, one cannot know for sure the exact numbers. I have heard sources claiming the ratio is close to 1:1, and others saying that MtFs outnumber FtMs 3:1. It would not surprise me if MtFs do outnumber FtMs, but I do believe that the numbers are about par. It is in this society still more appropriate for females to act "tomboyish" than a man to act as a "sissy" per se. A person born - rather assigned at birth - as a female is able to have more gender roles that "she" can perform as, whereas a person deemed a "male" is highly limited to masculine performity and ostricized for acting otherwise. Thus a person who identifies as a FtM, can in fact "pass" as a male, if he is able to signify thru his performance, without taking hormones. However, does it makes this person a "transsexual"? This is where the fuzzy edges of the term comes into play, and where there is no clear answer. Is the person "more" transsexual if they have SRS (sex reassignment surgery) or if they "pack" (for FtMs) or "tuck" (MtFs)? What is defined as "transsexual" in statistics? Does one consider themselves "transsexuals" after their surgery? It is impossible to say with certainty if in fact there are more MtFs than FtMs. However, the range of gender roles performity allowed to female individuals is much more wider, that in fact many may not need to identify as "transsexual" in order to express the masculinity within themselves. Whereas, males have no choice but to transition in order to express their femininity.

HMF, that's the shirt. Only it had 'By Any Means Necessary' written on top, which gives the picture a completely different message than when you know the story behind the picture. Nothing wrong with the shirt, I loved it - it's just not something I would wear today, ten years later. Cause I don't really believe in 'By Any Means Necessary' anymore - your blood cools when you get older, and your head clears too. I'm not being patronizing, because there are times I miss the energy and fire of being in my early twenties and seeing things in such terms.

The black Americans in my social circles (ALOT) do not see Indian culture as "normal". In fact, my experience is that more white Americans than black express a respectful interest in India's cultures.

Pardesi, you hang out with black people who can't tell the difference between native americans and indians... I *seriously* question the validaty of any extrapolation based on your circle of black friends. Everyone is entitled to say what they want, but I would *personally* like it if you didn't try to generalize... Black america doesn't seem to be your area of expertise.

"I've seen alot of tension and stress between black Americans and Indian Americans regarding things like lifestyle and particularly sexual morality."

Black and indian people aren't even likely to mix in large numbers on a more than superficial basis in most places... even so, those judgements are indicative of indians not being able to understand blacks and not the other way around.

"The black Americans in my social circles (ALOT) do not see Indian culture as "normal". In fact, my experience is that more white Americans than black express a respectful interest in India's cultures."

I never claimed this. I said black Americans know what it's like to have their behavior/culture treated as abnormal.

Exactly, HMF. Black people may be ignorant of different cultures, but once you start dealing with educated black people, they are MUCH more likely (than other educated white people) to understand what its like for other minority people to be marginalized.

Heh. Thanks for #197, Kara... that's a lot of information right thurr. Why didn't I ever consult you when queerness was the actual topic of a thread?

To chick pea (#193), thank you so much for bringing up the origin of "Pecola". "Pecola" is in reference to Pecola Breedlove, a little black girl in Toni Morrison's debut novel The Bluest Eye.

It's true that Pecola was so hated in her community that she wished that she had blue eyes, so she would by anyone and everyone that came in contact of her.

It's a sad, but very good novel.

Can we do a hip hop thread because I've got Memory Lane by Nas in my head all of a sudden

Hip hop thread for all us over-priced wanna be desis who drive lamborgenis and front about poverties that we ain't never seen

word to the pharmacist saajanay
;-)

mr. huey, you are welcome... i have yet to read this morrison story...

Shruti, perhaps because I was not as critical as I am now.

Dear CP! Thanks for the tip and the link to Morrison's story. thinking out loud. Probably a stretch to link AMU to Pecola, but as a literary device it made a stark backdrop against which to formulate one's opinions. made for moral clarity. no room for gray. good tactic. peas on earth.

Chick pea, I hope you do read The Bluest Eye. Every person of color, black and non-black alike, and even white people should read that novel to realize how some can believe that having blue eyes or blonde hair and voila, they will be loved by everyone that sees them.

I hope someday that someone will make it into a movie.

Chick pea, I hope you do read The Bluest Eye. Every person of color, black and non-black alike, and even white people should read that novel to realize how some can believe that having blue eyes or blonde hair and voila, they will be loved by everyone that sees them.

Disagree. it is a novel not gospel truth. if you want to know The Truth, you must read this book and the scales will fall from your eyes, like buffalo off the side of a cliff.

what in the name of bodisatva is a pecola.

who the holy lima beans knows?

the scales will fall from your eyes, like buffalo off the side of a cliff.

:D Y'all are so cute.

It WAS a "Bluest Eye" ref and I am somewhat surprised that it didn't come up until now. Then I started to think that it was so obvious, it didn't merit comment. That and I felt self-loathing over the whole "eye"/"weep" linkage...ahhh, I tried. :)

Uhh, hairy_d...what does racing bicycles have anything to do Pecola or obsession of blue eyes?

Speaking of Pecola, there was this Indian American model, Anchal Joseph on "America's Next Top Model." She wore blue eye contacts when she was first on the show. I kept thinking about Pecola Breedlove, b/c like Pecola, Anchal, a dark-skinned woman of color, thought that she was prettier with blue eyes also. After the judges told her that she was so pretty that she didn't really need them (in fact they said she was prettier without them), Anchal started crying and took them off and haven't wore them since. Talk about a "Bluest Eye" flashback.

If only Pecola Breedlove had someone to tell her that she was pretty...

there was this Indian American model, Anchal Joseph

huey... check it out here...

Uhh, hairy_d...what does racing bicycles have anything to do Pecola or obsession of blue eyes?

"There is no picture-perfect body for cycling, and a rider's potential should never be judged just by looking at him... so we see many different builds on riders. We see them with chicken chests, with bow legs, with long bodies, and with short bodies. Each can be a good build for cycling... I remember back in the mid 1960's when the Italian pursuit team competed in Poland. Their best rider, a fellow named Ursse who was world champion in the individual pursuit, stood almost two meters tall. .. The next best rider on the team was a little guy... Even spiders... "

mr. huey...all of anchal's blog angst has been wrtten about before here... i think it's a tactic for her to harness sympathy from tyra and the others on the panel... people on that show have played the race, i am going blind, etc..card before..(thanks miss shruti as well since i see your link)..

ahh mr. hairy peas on earth and happy legumes to you all ;)... (miss shruti that one is FOR YOU!)

miss anna: great title.. you always have layers of insight in everything you write about.. much appreciated.

HMF brah, I want to give you some advice. This might seem presumptious but take it with a grain of salt. Use outrage, don't let outrage use you. The time will come when you will be tested, and you'll know it, because the wind will get knocked out of you, and you'll go down on one knee. Consider these moments a blessing because then you'll be in it for real. Do not waste your strength on battles that don't need to be fought. Learn from everything around you. You do have a lot to learn still man. That's not a knock on you, but it should actually be a relief. You'll never save anyone no matter how many words you write or what thoughts you think. We're all in this together, every last creature. Some people will help and some will hurt each other, and it might not be who you expect. Discount no one.

Sahej, you forgot to add, "Be.... excellent to each other.... party on dude.."

Aight, point heard but not taken. ;-)

Aight, point heard but not taken. ;-)

Whoa... bogus.

Ok man

If you want to pretend you're fighting a revolution in your own head for the next 20 years, be my guest

By the way I was trying to give you advice I thought you could use, and I apologize if I was presumptious or arrogant about it. I may have made a mistake.

I too understand the place this comment stems from. I was born in Brooklyn, NY but I now live in the deep south. My parents are from Trinidad, my grandparents are from India. You look at me and I look Indian, you talk to me and I sound like an ABCD. The love of my life had the balls to tell me that I wasn't "Indian enough" whatever that meant. I spent the majority of my life not fully fitting in anywhere. I didn't understand why the "real desi kids" at school didn't want to play with me. I so envied the box each of you fit into. I think I've finally grown up enough that I appreciate the paradox that I am. and people can only make you feel small if you let them. But I have to say I am more wary of "Indian" people than any other ethnicity. No other race has ever been as out and out mean.

dear all indian women who wish to be white,
i can understand how you feel that the white race is more beautiful than you.and i am deeply troubled by your dislikening for your heritage.i am white,and my aunt and cousin are indian through my fathers brother.i think indians are the most gorgeous race in existance.i think indian models are far more beautiful than ANY american model.i am deeply,deeply, attracted to indian women.Not once,have i ever seen an "ugly" indian individual (even men).you are all beautiful and dont let anyone else every tell you otherwise.Take pride in who you are,god made you indian for a reason.you're all beautiful.:]-Amy(NY)

how can you want to be a white oppressor?