I'm not familiar with DC, but was this near the neighborhood I've seen lately where random well-to-do folks are being randomly mugged, assaulted, and killed? I know hindsight is 20/20, but I would have gone inside the place if I felt unsafe.

some people are perfect assholes anna...they prey on innocent, nice girls.

Hope you remain safe in the many more rainy days to come in NYC

Dude, I would have frickin' raged! One of my biggest pet peeves is guys that seem to think that a woman in a public place is somehow obligated to engage in conversation/ be receptive to chat. And it sometimes seems if you are anything short of a stellar bitch on heels from the get-go, it's an invitation. Aargh!

Yeah, I don't miss that aspect of the Morgue at all.

This seems like an appropriate moment to send a shot out to The Blank Noise Project. Lots of psychos out there it seems.

You should have said "The Jerk store called and there ....."

Thats a Seinfeld reference by the way.

Nothing is as sad as a bunch of drunk frat guys egging each other on. It doesnt matter what is said, but it will be followed by high 5's to each other and everyone saying "Your so fucking crazy bro!!"

This seems like an appropriate moment to send a shot out to The Blank Noise Project. Lots of psychos out there it seems.

Check out Holla Back as well. A N N A, consider submitting this to HollaBackDC.

maisnon beat me to it. I heard about Hollaback on NPR this past weekend. Although, when I think about it, I'm skeptical about its effectiveness because there's scant law enforcement on street harassment, picture or no picture. But then again, I'm a dude.

Imagine if you did wear deodorant....... They probably wouldn't have left you alone. Hopefully their foul comments won't ruin what otherwise seemed like a neigbhorhood you enjoyed.

Maybe tasers are legal in DC? I think your right, they definitely wouldn't have been so mouthy if you had a German Sheperd with you and were brandishing a taser or pepper spray.

Stay safe...

I'm skeptical about its effectiveness because there's scant law enforcement on street harassment, picture or no picture.

The point isn't to prosecute (as you pointed out, the behaviour usually isn't illegal.) Street harassers often seem to feel that they have a right to harass - like your (female) very presence in a public thoroughfare means that you should expect and accept being "hollered at." Taking pics with your cameraphone (which many on HollaBack do) is, in a sense, indicating that there are consequences. In the right situations, I often talk back and the reactions are quite interesting. For example, I have found that construction workers are often embarassed if you walk up to the fence and ask them to repeat themselves, etc. etc.

From HollaBack's FAQ:

Street harassment is a form of sexual harassment that takes place in public spaces. At its core is a power dynamic that constantly reminds historically subordinated groups (women and LGBTQ folks, for example) of their vulnerability to assault in public spaces. Further, it reinforces the ubiquitous sexual objectification of these groups in everyday life.

I am so pissed right now I cant tell you, been in a situation where person with whom I was on phone with had a somewhat similar incidence, feel as helpless today as I did that day.

maisnon,

mais oui. I suppose shaming in various forms is the only safe retaliation. Sacre bleu.

Thanks for the warm and fuzzy memories, Anna. I'm thoroughly frustrated right now thinking about how many times versions of this scene has played out in my life. Right after it happens, I hate myself for not having a better reaction. Then I go home and fantasize about humiliating them in the worst possible ways. Then I feel bad for fantasizing about such abuse. Then it gets repressed, and we all know it's downhill from there.

I've dealt with this many times. My best advice? You need to develop a nasty (temporary and able to turn on and off at will) attitude for when you get pushed. Being nice gets you somewhere half the time... the other half you need to verbally hit them where it hurts. They'll call you all types of names, but they usually walk away defeated. Otherwise, I am not against calling the cops...

Right after it happens, I hate myself for not having a better reaction. Then I go home and fantasize about humiliating them in the worst possible ways.

Sruti, I too always think of a great comeback... hours later. I usually just walk away wordlessly because these experiences usually infuriate me and ruin my mornng/afternoon/evening. I like Oneup's suggestion for developing a temporary attitude. Mr. Pooja has urged me to take photos and post them on HollaBack; I haven't yet.

A nice Diwali(or Christmas) present for Anna would be a pepper spray or taser. Maybe a baton.

I guess I feel the need to stick up for the neighborhood (because I live there), but its not all bad. I don't like going down to 18th on thurs, fri, sat nights because of the frat-tastic element, but none of those people live there. The rest of the week, I feel perfectly comfortable as an Indian woman in the neighborhood.

So yeah, it sucks that this element fouls up an otherwise very inviting, very ethnically-diverse neighborhood, and makes people who are actually respectful of others feel uncomfortable.

This would be a wonderful Diwali/Christmas gift.

A N N A-

So sorry you had to go through that. I was harassed on a train in India when I was 15 and I never felt so disgusted in my life.

It sometimes feels like one of those dreams where you are trying to say something, but no words come out of your mouth.

Peace be with you girl. We understand.

Disgusting behaviour really.

It got me thinking last weekend, when this girl I was talking to at a party said that they were howled at, whistled at, honked at, at least 10 times within a 10 block walk in Georgetown. In her words, she felt like she was raped as many times. We are also hearing about recent crimes against innocent bystanders in this area, so please be watchful!

Ugh, that's horrible Anna. So sorry you had to go through that experience. I would definitely get some pepper spray, if only to intimidate the a**holes to back off. I hope the memory of this night doesn't attach itself to your great Tryst memories!

Being nice gets you somewhere half the time... the other half you need to verbally hit them where it hurts. They'll call you all types of names, but they usually walk away defeated.

You're not afraid they'll get physical? I'm teeny tiny; I couldn't take on a bunch of drunk bro-dogs even if I had mace.

It sometimes feels like one of those dreams where you are trying to say something, but no words come out of your mouth.

That's so true, exactly how I feel when I've been harassed by pigfaced assholes...

It's the pack of those testosterone-overloaded, drunk guys and your sudden realisation of vulnerability that reminds ya why we still need feminism...

Also this is not meant to detract from the power and message of your piece... but just because I'm doing a Writing paper right now and v aware of this...is there an inconsistency in tense changes in the first bit?

Sorry Anna {{{huggs}}} I understand and feel your pain.

Taking pics with your cameraphone (which many on HollaBack do) is, in a sense, indicating that there are consequences. In the right situations, I often talk back and the reactions are quite interesting. For example, I have found that construction workers are often embarassed if you walk up to the fence and ask them to repeat themselves, etc. etc.

I really want to address this because after I heard the show on NPR I thought long and hard about this a long time. I've lived in NYC for 20 years and struggle with this on a daily basis. Often it doesn't come in your face disgusting and offensive but rather sly on the DL and dirty, someone walking by and whispering something nasty or someone attempting to "innocently" block your path while you try to walk down the street. And the words are hurtful and disgusting but they leave you scarred and ruin your day.

I experience a lot of comments where I ignore them and keep walking and the guy will usually say "Well fuck you then bitch you ugly anyway." And that brings me to the point of the above. It's a power issue not as much as a "vigilanti" issue. Taking a picture of one of these assholes will not and does not stop them. It is more of a tactic to empower you as a woman. Secondly I am uncomfortable with recommending this to anyone because sometimes taking someone's picture has consequences. You wouldn't want a man to retaliate and further harrass/intimidate you. Hollering back only makes you go down to their level of existence and I'm not sure in the long run and from personal experience it really helps. It has left me feeling utterly violated and strained when I have to say something back.

Personally for me Construction workers are like priests and usually don't say offensive stuff just unwelcome stuff. But the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting. I hate to make this about race but after 20 years of living here I reserve the right to say this. This shit I've heard is so creative and so vile it makes you wonder what kind of animals raised these assholes. And worse are those that come upto you and forcefully want to talk to you, they won't touch you but they keep walking next to you say shit to you and when you ignore them go off on a rantage of filth cursing you out for rejecting them.

I don't know what the solution to this is where the fuck are the other civilized men when this shit happens? I don't need a man to protect me but I certainly need him to take notice of what is happening with his own gender and do something about it. Why are more men not standing up and taking a stand against the assholes that stand on the corner of the street and say shit to every girl that walks by?

This is such a sore topic for me, sorry I'm all worked up over it and it's early. I've ended up in altercations that led to the cops being called over the years and as I've gotten older I've calmed down but it doesn't make it any less hurtful.

walking around with a pair of scissors labeled "Home Vasectomy Kit" couldn’t hurt either....

I have anger-management issues, and I'm afraid that if someone tries to mug me, there'll be blood. Mine or theirs, depending on how quick I can be, but there'll be blood.

Obviously, I need to get out of this mindset. Rationally speaking, I know it's not worth it: I can always cancel the credit cards, I never carry that much cash anyway, and nothing of sentimental value. Just hand over the stupid wallet, and let go the Jet-Li fantasies.

All of which is to say: I understand your fury. I detest any and all violations of my personal space.

But, in the clear light of day, nothing beats ignoring an idiot. Here we say "don't feed the trolls," and the same applies with real world assholes. Don't give them the satisfaction of troubling you. My guess is that most of them don't want to do physical harm-- what they want is interaction. Some people are so starved of intimacy that they'll settle for the abuse you might throw their way.

Deny them that, you'll have the upper hand. Yes, they'll probably insult you some more, but they'll leave disatisfied.

Keep cool, Queen of Sheba, and stay safe.

(I need to take my own advice too!)

But, in the clear light of day, nothing beats ignoring an idiot.

My guess is that most of them don't want to do physical harm--what they want is interaction. Some people are so starved of intimacy that they'll settle for the abuse you might throw their way.

It has nothing to do with interaction or intimacy...

Oh I agree, Pooja. Much the same is true, in a way, of porn. But monkey-mind persuades itself that it's connected to intimacy and interaction. In reality, as you say, it's a power issue.

That's why the asshole bothering a woman in public never says, "I did it because I was a jerk" but instead "I did it because she was beautiful." And that's why he acts surprised (he often genuinely is!) that she doesn't turn round and play the game, or act flattered, or tell him her name etc. "What, I can't tell a woman she looks nice?" etc.

Clueless, and it isn't the woman's duty to give him a clue.

NPR did a recent podcast on Holla Back NYC

But monkey-mind persuades itself...

Dude, leave us out of it. It's you guys who are the mutants, not us.

Oh, and no offence to Rajni or any other macaques is intended in my last comment. "Monkey-mind" is a Buddhist expression for the baser human urges.

Clueless, and it isn't the woman's duty to give him a clue.

Fair, but whose duty is it to give these jerks a clue?

Rajni you beat me to it. Time stamp on our comments is identical!

Fair, but whose duty is it to give these jerks a clue?

Everybody, in all possible ways. But not you at that time in that place. That's the big exception.

But if you're in a work environment and guys are "being guys," if the situation is right, say something. If I'm around family and some Neanderthal uncle shoots off his mouth, if the situation is right, I'll say something. All kinds of opportunities.

But it's not your job to educate a drunk Guido at the busstop. Not because he doesn't need educating, but because the personal cost to you isn't worth it.

I speak as a man, and I beg your indulgence if I fail to understand fully.

ANNA, I am very sorry to hear this happened to you.

And worse are those that come upto you and forcefully want to talk to you, they won't touch you but they keep walking next to you say shit to you

This sort of thing still happens to women in some parts of India too, even reasonable-sized cities.

I don't know what the solution to this is where the fuck are the other civilized men when this shit happens? I don't need a man to protect me but I certainly need him to take notice of what is happening with his own gender and do something about it. Why are more men not standing up and taking a stand

I did both my undergraduate and postgraduate degrees at colleges in London which had absolutely huge South Asian student populations. Whenever a desi girl was harassed in this way, a typical response was for a bunch of her male desi friends (and/or brothers and cousins, if available) to pay a visit to the offending parties -- if they could identify them -- and threaten to beat the crap out of them if they tried to pull that kind of stunt again. Some people would of course apply some remedial discipline right there. The same thing would happen if a desi guy had been on the receiving end of racial harassment from anyone.

The risk of about a dozen solid-steel karas rapidly aimed in the direction of the jerk's face was usually sufficient to solve the problem.

However, Mr Kobayashi's advice about how to deal with this in a work or social setting would be more appropriate in those particular scenarios.

My co-worker was harrassed last week while standing in a line at the DMV...at the FREAKIN DMV! An older looking man started whispering in her ear "hey, you gotta nice ass". She just lost it and started screaming "get away from you f**in f**k". The security guard came over and then she pressed charges. Obviously she was shaken up when she got back to work and told us her ordeal.

But it's not your job to educate a drunk Guido at the busstop. Not because he doesn't need educating, but because the personal cost to you isn't worth it.

Part of responding (or not responding) is the message you are sending yourself. When I say something, or take someone on - it's in a situation I feel is fairly safe (i.e. the middle of H&M - not joking!, construction workers on Wilson Blvd in Arlington next to my law school at 1 pm, etc. etc.) I could be wrong, of course. The reason I do it is partly for them, a la my earlier comment - but mostly it's for me. It's so that I don't have the yucky powerless, "I shoulda said ...", "I can't believe that guy thought he could say..." feeling.

I've been silent about street harassment most of my life (because, of course, that's how most women are raised.) Speaking up one out of a hundred, possibly one out of a thousand incidents has made me feel more empowered.

Who's job is it to educate? I don't think it is mine. I would love to see more guys telling their guy friends that it is not cool instead of what I do see - that a certain brand of harassment comes from guys in groups.

You're not afraid they'll get physical? I'm teeny tiny; I couldn't take on a bunch of drunk bro-dogs even if I had mace.

Important concern, Shruti. The most important thing for prevention is not how prepared you are to retaliate, but how prepared the harrasser thinks you are. This naturally places all women, smaller people, brownz/asians(from the stereotype) in a position of having to deal with this more often. A big man too might be very unwilling to retaliate when harrassed by an unruly bunch, but no one would ever know because people wouldn't bother him in the first place.

Unless it's the same asshole bothering you repeatedly, in which case, punishment (mace, taser) would help. But so would the cop anyway in that case.

Strength to you all.

I've been silent about street harassment most of my life (because, of course, that's how most women are raised.) Speaking up one out of a hundred, possibly one out of a thousand incidents has made me feel more empowered.

Maisnon, you're right.

That's exactly the limitation I face as a guy trying to think through these things. My point of view is too theoretical. A woman's practical experience says, "Talking back sometimes makes me feel powerful." And who am I to dispute that?

Anna - thats the worst feeling that one can have. you should probably avoid those assholes..and not entertain any of their slurs.

I've had similar instances (just replace 'sexual slurs' with 'racial slurs')...all alone 2am in the night! Initially I used to reply back..and sometimes even try to explain that I'm not a "Taliban" or an "Arab". The best way to deal with such morons is to discourage them by politely refusing them once..and subsequently ignoring them altogether.
I realize that there are lot more things to consider if the slurs are sexual in nature (as opposed to the racial ones).

I would love to see more guys telling their guy friends that it is not cool.

Or just saying something, anything when the harassment is so blatent. As JoaT said, "I don't need a man to protect me but I certainly need him to take notice of what is happening with his own gender and do something about it." I was recently harassed (lewd comments) in a workplace cafeteria by one of the food handlers. I was in line with a group of men all of whom heard what the man who was preparing my lasagna was saying. Not a peep from one of them. I reported the cafeteria worker to human resources (which as Mr. K. said, it the right thing to do in this situation), but wouldn't it have been nice if the well-dressed young man behind me had said something, too?

And that's why he acts surprised (he often genuinely is!) that she doesn't turn round and play the game, or act flattered, or tell him her name etc. "What, I can't tell a woman she looks nice?" etc.

A lot of these greasy m.f.'s think they're doing you a favor by hitting on you. What? You're not flattered? Some guy that was 'tawking' to me on the street once tried to persuade me by finally sharing that he liked 'heavy women'. Ok, so you're greasy, keeping me from going where I have to go, now you're calling me heavy, and you think that's going to make me have some sort of epiphany that you might be the guy for me? Yeah.... sala.

But for a lot of guys, it's also a numbers game. It's a low risk investment of not more than a minute or two. If they shoutout five girls randomly on the street, and even one responds positively - that's still one girl who their weak game has worked on. Who cares about the other four? They didn't know them anyways. So why not holler at any women you'd be willing to sleep with? But it sucks because they've only wasted a few seconds or minutes - and you've been left feeling icky.

In a crowded train situation where someone is trying to rub up on you and I've lost track of how many times it's actually been a middle aged desi uncle, I've learnt that to speak up, look the person in the eye and ask the person to stop is sufficient. I proceed to usually embarrass them.

Gone are those days and as a direct result of being older that I put up with some fuck trying to cop a feel. I don't think so. Words are one thing, the minute you touch me it's all over. You could be a 500 lb gorilla this shortie is going to make you scream mama. If it's a older man he usually will not be confrontational and back down or most of the time walk away from embarrassment.

I did both my undergraduate and postgraduate degrees at colleges in London which had absolutely huge South Asian student populations. Whenever a desi girl was harassed in this way, a typical response was for a bunch of her male desi friends (and/or brothers and cousins, if available) to pay a visit to the offending parties -- if they could identify them -- and threaten to beat the crap out of them if they tried to pull that kind of stunt again.

Jai this isn't a practical solution when it comes to a street thug and someone you don't know.

several orders of WTF would have been rightly deserved! geez Anna... what a night!

i have had to comply to always being plus one whenever i'm in any downtown at night and always regret nights out with the girls alone. seriously having one guy there is usually enough to ward off most of the jacka$$e$!

mr kobayashi... thanks for your comment... we defn need more guys to help change attitudes.

and jai, i agree... my guy friends have definitely helped me get rid of some idiots or helped implant a hesitance to repeat that sort of behaviour again. you know what sucks though, is when that behaviour comes from a desi guy... for some reason the disrespect always feels greater.

But in general, about your experience, ANNA - it's terrible that you had to deal with what you did, especially with the guy who tried to get up on you under your umbrella. Those kinds of guys are the worst - you tell him you have a BF (who is he to know otherwise) - and he continues to push up on you. Why? Because your 'boyfriend' is on the phone, and not there with you in person to defend you. So he thought that he had the freedom to do what he wanted. Those kinds of guys can respect/fear the strength of another man, but have no respect for women. So what if your fake-boyfriend wasn't there? You didn't want him under your goddamn umbrella, and he just figured there was nothing you could do about it, so he was going to do what he wished.

What an a-hole.

This sort of thing still happens to women in some parts of India too, even reasonable-sized cities.

Jai Singh, it has reached epidemic purportions in North India.

When I did my college (11th, 12th) in Bombay, there was this guy who would follow me everywhere and I didn't even know who he was!!! He freaked me out because he kind of looked underworld don-ish...big car (when most other kids didn't have their own car), lots of money, so cheap and ugly and lots of ugly, boisterous friends.

He even knew when my birthay was and exactly where I lived! It was awful because of those awful stares and I kept feeling I would get kidnapped. One day I was waiting for my bus and I turned back and there he was. I felt so mad. I told my girlfriend "come with me, I am going to scream at this guy". I shouted at him in front of everybody...calling him a creep and what not. And his reply in hindi was "sorry main english nahi bolta" (sorry I don't speak English). I felt like an idiot. He DID look like he would not know english. Worst, I had practiced for this moment for ages. I knew what I was going to say and I said it with such fury and he didn't even understand a word!

Anyways long story short, I reported him to my principal and the police and that nonsense stopped from the next day. It was really awful expereince and I hope it doesn't happen to anyone else. In India I felt more vulnerable because of there are a lot of roadside romeos there. They follow you, make catwhistles etc ... especially in Bombay. That changed me a lot because I stopped wearing small skirts or makeup. Even now, I almost always wear jeans and no makeup. Plus I used to take advantage of raksha bandhan. I would tie so many rakhis to creeps...it was funny. Plus in India if someone is being creepy, calling them "bhiya" (Brother) usually helps most of the time.

That part of DC used to nice and safe, but I guess not anymore. I feel both sorry and enraged reading the whole incident.

This is exactly why I never approach girls I don't know in restaurants or bars. I'd rather miss out on a few dates then become one of those creeps.

Ew, I remember getting cat-calls from the rickshawvalas when I was 6 years old and visiting!!

I was recently harassed (lewd comments) in a workplace cafeteria by one of the food handlers. I was in line with a group of men all of whom heard what the man who was preparing my lasagna was saying. Not a peep from one of them. I reported the cafeteria worker to human resources (which as Mr. K. said, it the right thing to do in this situation), but wouldn't it have been nice if the well-dressed young man behind me had said something, too?

Pooja I hear you. And I'm shocked people behave this way. There was a UPS driver that I used to encounter in my old building all the time who'd say shit to you while you were on the elevator. It was forced interaction and I really resented it. Eventually I just reported him and just like that it stopped. But there would be other suits on the elevator and no one once said to him "Stop, you are being disrespectful."

Unfortunately the following is also true and sometimes it doesn't allow men the opportunity to say something. There is a guy who sells bags in front of my office building in midtown. I avoid him like the plague but he'll say things if I'm even across the street. Things like "Baby you look so fine today". "Wow mama you are smoking today." It's not disgusting but it's NOT welcome. And it's embarrassing because other coworkers are around me walking by in the morning or evening.

Often I'm with a friend who works down the block when I go to the subway and whenever he is with me the guy doesn't even look my way. I've told the friend many times to watch out for him but he never says a peep when he's with me, only when I'm alone. Which IS a power position thing and it really makes me angry. I really want to deal with it but unsure how to go about it. I'm open to suggestions. I want him to stop. Telling me I look nice everyday in a dirty way is NOT welcome. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear "Goodmorning sweetheart how you doin?" I don't want to hear "You look so good in all over brown like a chocolate" (he said that yesterday) fuck stop saying shit to me and I want him to stop.

JOAT,

Jai this isn't a practical solution when it comes to a street thug and someone you don't know.

I know.

Possible solutions:

1. Ignore them.
2. Try to think of a suitable withering verbal response (although that will risk exacerbating the situation further if he's enough of a jerk).
3. Take physical self-defence classes. If the guy "crosses the Rubicon" and touches you, then know how to temporarily incapacitate him so that he backs off.

Many bullies will only pick on those they think are vulnerable. They will back off if their "target" isn't afraid to retaliate, although it may sometimes require them getting a bloody nose (actual or metaphorical) for them to get the message.

I agree with Jai, one important point I learned in a self-defence class during my undergrad years was that look at the person who is being creepy. Take a mental note of the clothes he is wearing, the colors, the type of shoes etc. Just doing that will make you look strong in front of his eyes because they know when you observe them. You don't look as vulnerable as you would if you put your head down or look the other way.

Sumiti,

you know what sucks though, is when that behaviour comes from a desi guy... for some reason the disrespect always feels greater.

Well, yes, because theoretically the desi guys "should know better". However, you deal with it in the same way anyway.

Welcome to Britain. I did say that we destroyed the "nerdy desi victim" stereotype a very long time ago !

Pardesi Gori,

it has reached epidemic purportions in North India.

It's always been bad in some regions there, and the offenders concerned frequently don't pay any attention to how young or old their target is. I've heard from older female relatives that the "rudeness" in this matter has got worse in recent years, although I don't know if this perspective is accurate or just a matter of misplaced nostalgia for non-existent "safer" times.

In response to why the well-dressed man didn't react:

I was raised in a very traditional, chivalrous sort of manner, that you always open doors, pay the check, treat women with respect, etc. While my natural instinct in a situation like you girls are describing would be to try and help out or tell the guy to beat it, I was basically told to fuck off by a couple different girls in college because "they didn't need our help." One girl basically insinuated that it was sexist for me to assume that a girl needed a man's help in such a situation. I merely apologized and moved on. Since then, I've largely ignored the rudeness I notice is prevalent among other males, because I don't want to impose my apparently backward worldview on modern women.

That being said, I would definitely do something if I thought a woman was in actual physical danger, was someone I know, or was Indian. It would be too hard to suppress the impulse to help.

For those of you who aren't from the DC area and are not familiar with Adams Morgan, this recent article from the Washington City Paper may provide some helpful context.

They will back off if their "target" isn't afraid to retaliate.

Most women I know want to "retaliate" (actually or metaphorically), but are so dumbfounded at the moment at which it (man copping a feel in a crowded bus, man leaning out of moving van to make a lewd comment, man pushing himself under your umbrella a block away from your apartment and requesting, no, demeanding, a kiss [yes, this has happened to me too]) happens, they just don't. know. how. to. react. Your mind just shuts down. To restate what Meenakshi said, for a lot of women, it "feels like one of those dreams where you are trying to say something, but no words come out of your mouth."

I agree with Comment # 54.

Imagine feeling like a loser when a girl looks at you as if you were patronizing her - you dont need to thank, but dont tell me that I was being sexist. It happened and hence I keep my trap shut and only help when sought.

45.
A few years ago Delhi police carried out a sting operation. The harassed woman would casually turn around say “Police. You’re under arrest. Oh, and b t w, you’re on camera.”

Much hilarity ensued. Studs tearing up / “Madam I beg of you. Please don’t show the tape to my wife.”, etc.

Sweet.

Oh, ANNA! What a f*ckawful night!!

Seriously, is there any tactic that works in this situation? Ignoring it makes you feel like a victim and icky, and standing up for yourself can go either way... sometimes it escalates, sometimes you scare the prickless wonder off.

At a show in NYC, we went out to the sidewalk between band sets. I exited the club first, followed by Mr. DD. Some punkass kid, standing up against the wall in front of the club, looks me up and down, looks at Mr. DD, and exclaims "You're f*cking her??"

I think I got 2 steps in before I realized what this little shit said, Mr. DD hardly registered it-- he had his NY blinders on. I whipped around, stuck my finger in dude's face and yelled "WHAT did you just say??!!!" -his friends actually backed away from him, as if his shit-talking was actually across the implied line of street-thug decency and he was on his own. One even said "you on your own, kid"

Starting with "how dare you!" and moving into "do you have a sister? would you kick somebody's ass if they talked to your sister that way? I AM somebody's sister, asshole..." and "what about me walking by means it's your right to comment on me?", etc etc etc. But the guy was like 18, so it was an easy fight. The bouncer of the club made him come back over to apologize, and he's like "I meant no harm..." -Talking like THAT you meant no harm? You need a M-F*ing word-a-day calendar then, because your vocabulary is in dire need of expansion.

My only regret in that situation? I should have flat decked his ass. ;)

Interestingly enough, I wrote a story about a similar situation for my writing class last night. You can read it on my blog if you want, I wrote it because I noticed this kind of behavior is fairly prevalent among the crowd you are referring to (young, college aged males). It's nothing great, but it's pretty coincidental that you posted this the same day.

Acutally DesiDancer, it sounds like your husband should have decked him. It seems more like a challenge to him than anything else.

I have to say, this is my ONE area of expertise, since I encountered it DAILY in India.

For the first couple of years I was totally devastated everytime it happened, it left me in tears actually. Plus, add the confusion of not knowing the language or whether or not a riot will start if you retaliate, and you can imagine the fear in my beating heart. But after living there for a while, learning hindi and getting to feel "a part of it all", I learned the ropes with "eve teasers".

If it's just something like some guy wanting to cozy up to you under your umbrella while your talking on a cell phone, the best way to make him feel like he does not exist is to simply pretend you never even saw him and keep on chatting away with your back turned towards him. That's a big insult.

But when it comes to actually TOUCHING - nothing short of a counter-attack will do.

That might be easier in India where the men tend to be smaller and often-times AFRAID of women who counter-attack. In India they always start running when I do this, but over here, I don't know. I was never harrassed in USA so the dynamics indeed may be different.

In India there is starting to be a backlash against the Blank Noise Project girls and the guys are saying, "if he looked like Hrithik Roshan you wouldn't be complaining".

Well, that depends on how Hrithik makes his move. There is a big difference between someone politely showing a genuine interest in you and some guy on the street walking behind you hissing.

Anyway, in India I carry a big safety pin with me on public transportation. If any elbow finds it's way to my breast on an overcrowded bus - someone gets pricked.

It works. They move away.

Pooja, that's so painful (comment #54). And you describe it so well, as does Anna in her original post. And it's alarming to be reminded, once again, of the frequency and constancy of this blot.

I'm not ashamed to call myself a feminist, even if I'm aware of the internal contradictions of that identification. For a long time now, I've thought misogyny one of the most pressing of our social problems. But, unlike racism and homophobia, I don't see it getting better. We're too used to it, too invested in it.

There are words and stories in our culture about man vs woman that would cause riots if they were white vs black or even white vs brown. Over and over again, the media depicts women as weak, foolish and sexually available. And the media expresses the will of the people. It's not an exagerration to say that we function within a woman-despising culture. And it's a lot worse in many places outside the US. The jerkoffs who grab women on the subway are only the tip of the iceberg.

There is only one solution. Strong women. Because that's what human beings understand. The language of power.

But if we're talking about power, there's all kinds.

There's mace, there's the knee in the balls, there's DD's murderous wit (yo!), but there's also other, more profound and farther reaching kinds...

Bidismoker (#54) and Prasad (#57) - Same thing happened to me a couple of times. In both instances, I ended up making a fool of myself..'cos the girl(s) somehow thought that I was "being sexist" and "asserting my manlihood(!!?)" by trying to help her. I backed out immediately.

Why won't guys understand that NO means NO?

For the two years I lived in DC carless, street harrassment was a daily part of living there. Out of all the US cities I've been to, is by far the worst. Men feel entitled to harrass. they hoot and holler, then call you ugly if you ignore them, you always have this fear that the next one will take it physical- I even got propostioned for sex on the green line once. You learn to walk across the street if you see someone walking to you, back tense, no eye contact. And when I moved back to LA, one of the first things I noticed how I could share a sidewalk with a man and I didn't have to be afraid.

I was involved back then is a street harrassment training (back before holla back, I think)and it was really helpful. It wasn't about yelling back at your harrasser but talking back at him telling him that you didn't like what he was doing. (The premise is guys think that you like it, or they are following the momentum- the good ones when talked to will actually stop what they are doing). I don't think I have my pamphlet on this anymore...But they do have a group listserve for DC street harrassment. http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/dontcallmebaby">Don't Call Me Baby.

Another piece of advice given to women (though I've only heard this while in India) is to draw attention to the harasser, shaming him in public. Any anecdotes as to the effectiveness of this tactic, ladies of SM?

Another question;

Have these guys actually had success with this kind of approach with women before?

If so, then it's understandable while they keep doing it. But if not, why the hell do they keep on? I mean, if you've hooted and hollered at 500 women and not one of those 500 women responded in a positive way (meeting you for dinner later that night), then why the hell keep doing it?

And, what exactly do they expect from women? I mean, do they expect the woman to be like, "I'm so charmed by your approach and good looks, HELL YEAH, let's meet later"?!?!?!

It's like in India when I'm buying fruit and some really ugly dude says, "kiss me"....
Now, if I would've send, "Chello mera room..." would he actually have KNOWN what to do with me?

Or the 13 year old kid who passed me in the street and said, "I want to fuck you".

Had I taken him up on the offer would he know the first thing about pleasing a woman?

I just can't figure out what the hell these guys want/expect.

Pooja,

I've shamed and beaten up plenty of guys in India. It works. Generally any type of retaliation worked for me there. I wouldn't know about USA though.

The biggest thing was for me to first overcome my own shame at making a public spectacle in India. They took some time. Now I'm totally comfy with it and do it regularly, as is needed.

Good advice Taz. The post certainly brought up so many ugly memories. I have usually dealt with the hoots/hollers/inappropriate comments by simply ignoring it. In my experience, 9 times out of 10, it doesn't work and instead I get yelled at comments like "effing slut, who does she think she is... skank.. ya da ya da ya da." It always makes me cringe but I've resigned to pulling out my trusty pepper spray. Turning around and speaking to them could be a good idea, but I generally don't like confrontation, and it creeps me out to talk to the creep-os.

I certainly would not think a man is a sexist if he tried to help out. It would be kosher as long as he didn't ask me out for a date afterwards.

I was basically told to fuck off by a couple different girls in college because "they didn't need our help." One girl basically insinuated that it was sexist for me to assume that a girl needed a man's help in such a situation. I merely apologized and moved on. Since then, I've largely ignored the rudeness I notice is prevalent among other males, because I don't want to impose my apparently backward worldview on modern women.

God, this is sad. What we NEED is more men who will stand up and say to other men "What you are doing is not right." The fact that these men are being shamed into silence is sad. Sure, women can do it for themselves, but working TOGETHER is even better. Feminism isn't about reversing roles of men and women; it is about giving everyone an equal voice.

I read this and I wanted to kick those guys into the middle of next week. My first thought was "She needs pepper spray ... any time a guy said something not cool, they get to cry." ... but we live in such a litigious society ... I don't think you can do that... however, if he touches you, like the umbrella guys, then he DESERVES pepper spray, or worse.

What gave any man the idea that he has a RIGHT to touch a woman he doesn't know? And what makes them do this? Are so many men in this world perverts? I believe in the goodness of humanity and don't think that's the case... but there's definitely an underlying societal OK that is given to them, gives them this license.

Women can change that. But men have a responsibility to speak out too. Women have every right to defend themselves; they don't need a knight on his white horse. But if it becomes socially unacceptable *between men* for a guy to grab a woman on the street or catcall her, the behaviour will eventually cease.

I've shamed and beaten up plenty of guys in India

beaten up!!!

beaten up!!!

Senax - hell ya!!!!

And I know I'll have to do it again.

I always prepare myself psychologically for that before going.

Like One-up said - a Durga avatar that can be turned off and on at will, when neccessary.

As I've said, I don't utilize this approach myself, but I was in a fraternity in college and I have a lot of friends that do. Basically, in response to PG's question, yes this approach works, depending on the context.

A lot of guys are just fat, stupid bastards who can't really get women anyways, so they treat them with hostility, which masks their desire. But another perspective exists. The better looking the guy, the more likely his rudeness and inappropriate forwardness will be tolerated. I've seen it countless times with my friends, when the big ugly dudes might get chewed out for something that totally works for other guys. We had one guy in my pledge class, who's pledge name was "Ken" because he was so classically good looking, you know curly blonde hair, blue eyes, the whole deal. Thing is, the guy was a complete and total asshole. He was incredibly pretentious, rude and misogynist. he would basically get drunk at the bar and call girls bitches and sluts. And it didn't matter, because they were usually happy he was speaking to them. I used to live next to him, and as much as I hated the guy, I couldn't say his approach wasn't successful.

I never understood this myself, and still don't. But there is definitely a segment of the population, the kind that prefers Christina Aguilera's philosophy to A N N A's, the kind that reads Maxim instead of SM, where this is not that far from standard operating procedure.

Comment 69 Uvacha: I certainly would not think a man is a sexist if he tried to help out. It would be kosher as long as he didn't ask me out for a date afterwards.

That basically sums up how we guys feel - just because we help, doesnt mean we are gonna ask you out!

I would love to see more guys telling their guy friends that it is not cool.

True, but the problem here is that like attracts like. I can honestly say that NONE of my dude friends would ever behave this way, even in our worst state, so my telling them that it's not cool isn't very productive. On the other hand, jerks like these tend to move in packs. I, and most sane men, avoid crowds like this and quite frankly, you'll have to work hard to convince me that I should spend more time with these people in order to teach them respect for women. That's there parents' job. If there parents failed, it's probably too late at this point to try to convince them otherwise.

reminds me of the sex & the city episode where a construction worker is harassing Miranda, daily, in front of his boyz. Finally one day she turns around and totally loses her shit, "you got what I want?? you got what I need?" and proceeds to list the problems she's got in her life... and says something to the effect of "can you handle that, can you give me what i need?" and the guy is so mortified he apologizes.

alas, life is not like sex & the city ;)

Pardesi Gori:

How exactly do you beat up guys? Also, when someone is being creepy, what exactly do you say to them? I really want to learn the words because when I am in those situations I don't know what to say immediatly.

Kudos to you girl for being so strong.

Prasad #74:

Word. Women interpret any male attention always as being sexual, and probably for good reason, given the prevalence of incidents like the one A N N A describes in this post. It does make it harder for men who are not creeps to be involved- we are automatically assumed to be part of the problem. Which again, is why I basically don't talk to any women that I am not expressly introduced to.

Another piece of advice given to women (though I've only heard this while in India) is to draw attention to the harasser, shaming him in public. Any anecdotes as to the effectiveness of this tactic, ladies of SM?

Useless. There is no sense of shame-as-a-bad-thing left in America. Most of these guys probably have parents that were too busy to instill a sense of values in them anyway, if they were even there in the first place. They'll just call you a skanky ho and walk on to harass the next girl, feeling like they still got the upper hand.

I am usually a very nonviolent person ... but when guys dehumanize us like that, I wish I could beat them to a bloody pulp and get away with it.

I meant "their" parents. My lack of spelling skills always gets the better of me.

The better looking the guy, the more likely his rudeness and inappropriate forwardness will be tolerated. I've seen it countless times with my friends, when the big ugly dudes might get chewed out for something that totally works for other guys. We had one guy in my pledge class, who's pledge name was "Ken" because he was so classically good looking, you know curly blonde hair, blue eyes, the whole deal. Thing is, the guy was a complete and total asshole. He was incredibly pretentious, rude and misogynist. he would basically get drunk at the bar and call girls bitches and sluts. And it didn't matter, because they were usually happy he was speaking to them. I used to live next to him, and as much as I hated the guy, I couldn't say his approach wasn't successful.

Bidi, this is what alot of Indian guys are saying to the BNP girls.

Wow. Such women must have real low self-esteem if they don't mind being treated like shit by a guy just coz he's "cute". On the other hand you do see guys that tolerate just about anything from a woman if she's "super-hot". Superficial people with no self-respect.

the kind that prefers Christina Aguilera's philosophy to A N N A's

What is Aguilera's philosophy?

Two words:

pepper spray.

I just can't figure out what the hell these guys want/expect.

they expect to get away with it! it's a bravado thing or something... and they don't give a f$#& about a woman's respect.

I was going to suggest Jai Singh's #51, self-defence/martial arts, but I felt that this is some kind of elephant in the room and people don't want to talk about it. The woman in my life took these up at the first opportunity she got in order to deal with experiences like this. It's not like it needs any special fitness or anything. In fact, she was quite unathletic when she started. Now, I'm looking forward to getting some help and protection from her presence if I get into a sticky situation. I know we all have busy lives. I know we shouldn't have todo it, the harrassers should stop etc. But aren't there some things that one just has to do? Dedicating a few hours a week for just one year to do this should give you confidence for your whole life. The sooner you get started, the better. This weekend is a time to start as any other.

#77- when in the subway and creepy frotteuristic dude is bothering you, a loud and simple "you can take your penis off my leg now" usually works ;)

"if you've hooted and hollered at 500 women and not one of those 500 women responded in a positive way (meeting you for dinner later that night), then why the hell keep doing it?"
For majority of these sad wankers, that's the only realistic chance of conversation / contact w/ women.

PG-

You're right, it's not restricted to girls. People tend to let anyone get away with a lot more depending on their physical attractiveness. But I think that's true for the vast majority of people; I know my anecdotal experience is that the more attractive you are, the more noxious you are allowed to be without anyone minding, male or female.

Aguilera's philosophy was that being slutty=girl power. It's quite big now, ask the average girl under 20 that watches MTV.

I am usually a very nonviolent person ... but when guys dehumanize us like that, I wish I could beat them to a bloody pulp and get away with it.

I often want to take out my Swiss Army knife and carve an "A" onto their foreheads, for "A**hole."

Been There Seen That -

I usually run after them and they run away in fear before I get a chance to beat them up.

But I have beaten plenty. Hitting, punching, whatever it takes.

As far as pepper spray and stun guns..... well, I did carry a stun gun through town one night and wouldn't you know - that's the one night I didn't get harrassed. And I was really pumped to stun someone too.

I didn't carry the stun gun anymore coz I had a fear in my mind that the guy would fall back on a brick wall and get a concusion or something and I'd have to face a long Indian legal battle which would only reach verdict when my great-grandkids were having kids or when I achieved mukti/moksha.

I always have this fear that if I do something really bad to the guy, his family or neighbors will retaliate and have me kicked out of India (easy to bribe the FRO) or something major.

So, basically I just stick with slapping, punching.

I tell you, the safety pin on public transportation works like a charm! And I picked up that idea from a TIMES OF INDIA article written by a woman giving advice to India's female population on how to deal with "eve-teasers" and "roadside romeos", as they are called.

Have these guys actually had success with this kind of approach with women before?

Sumiti - appreciate your input but Toronto is not DC. Parts of Colleg St get bad - but never as bad as this. There is still a sense of community - people who work there, live there - makes a big difference.

Bidismoker, good to see you back here.

I see the direction you are headed in. Like PG said, a lot of Indian guys say such things. Related to the BNP, read this post from Hemangini

Sorry, I meant "are asking such things"

I was basically told to fuck off by a couple different girls in college because "they didn't need our help." One girl basically insinuated that it was sexist for me to assume that a girl needed a man's help in such a situation. I merely apologized and moved on.

Imagine feeling like a loser when a girl looks at you as if you were patronizing her - you dont need to thank, but dont tell me that I was being sexist. It happened and hence I keep my trap shut and only help when sought.

I'm really sorry guys. On behalf of all women out there let me be the first to apologize for this. This is where feminism has fucked over some women that don't understand what it means.

In India there is starting to be a backlash against the Blank Noise Project girls and the guys are saying, "if he looked like Hrithik Roshan you wouldn't be complaining".

Believe me I've heard it too. If he was attractive you wouldn't mind. Well you know what he's not, in fact he's butt ugly, so which part of I'm not interested is not clear? Reason doesn't work in this case but putting someone down gives me sick satisfaction.

Have these guys actually had success with this kind of approach with women before?

Unfortunately I'm ashamed for mankind to say yes. I have seen guys use the same disgusting line on me on someone else right after and the woman is responsive!! So these dickwad think all women must like it.

reminds me of the sex & the city episode where a construction worker is harassing Miranda, daily, in front of his boyz.

Just once I actually got the courage to walk upto the guy after he went on everyday and say "OK lets go come on, your place or mine, or should I just come down into the construction site?" to which he turned red and said "Lady I was just kidding, sorry!"

This reminds me. There was a series called Subway Stories on HBO years ago. One of the stories had Ajai Naidu & Sarita Chowdhary in it. They were in the subway. He was with another friend who started picking on her because she was Indian, then Naidu went on to harrass her and touch her I think. She went apeshit and beat the crap out of Naidu. Both ended up at the precinct. Then he apologized or something to that effect. But those words, the Indian slurs brought such bad memories back for me when I saw that show I cried.

If someone violates me physically I have no problem ending up on the wrong side of the law. None. Have done it before. Will do it again.

Two words: pepper spray.

There are fairly strict pepper spray laws in NYC. You have to be over the age of 18 and register yourself as a legal pepper spray carrier. But pepper sprays can be problematic. More often than not people end up spraying themselves. They are cumbersome and not always easy to carry in your palm as you walk. You also end up spraying everyone around you as a result of discharging it and in a crowd it ends up being a legal offense. So it sounds like an easy solution but it's really not. Generally the only people that carry pepper spray now are law enforcement officers.

I wish they had a zapper of some sort. I just go by and zap someone and it sends a mind numbing painful zap to the man's penis so that he's rendered useless and in pain for at least 24 hours!! Any Mutineers want to take this up??? I can find you at least 1000 women who will buy it!

On the pepper spray idea, in DC, pepper spray must be registered with the police.

BidiSmoker, the best way to talk to a woman you do not know is to say, "Hello, my name is [BidiSmoker]."

My favourite "street shaming" happened in Amsterdam. I was on Oude Hogenstraat (sp?) and it had just started raining. All of the tourists were huddled on either side of the street under the awnings. This guy stood on the corner and yelled "VROUW" at me ('Woman' in Dutch - dude, seriously???) He (finally) figured out that I'm more of an English speaker and asked me to come talk to him, I said I didn't have time. He said, "You don't have even a minute?" And I said, "NOT FOR YOU!" The gratifying part was having everyone laugh at him. FOR ONCE, I think it might have made him think the next time he was tempted to holla at some chiquita.

Also good: telling the guy trying to cop a feel in the crush of people waiting for drinks at the bar that he could remove his hand from my ass or I would allow him to choose which testicle he'd lose.

Re: SATC, Miranda's harasser - after she gives her litany of complaints and is says something to the effect of "let's go, big boy!" says "Take it easy, lady .... I have a wife!"

I got very inspired reading all the comments on this post and decided that the next time someone disrespected me, I would certainly say something. I thought these things as I headed for the bathroom at work. And a co-worker, acquaintance I have hung out with before, stops me to say "hi" and chat while the entire time staring at the breasts (literally, he didn't look at me). All the inspiration vanished, and once again, I said nothing, but this time politely smiled and walked into the bathroom to get away from creep-o. *Sigh* I'm not even pissed off anymore, I just don't want to deal with it...

Sumiti - appreciate your input but Toronto is not DC. Parts of Colleg St get bad - but never as bad as this.

hairy_D - i appreciate your comment but are you a woman? :)
and btw the greatest disrespect i have ever experienced from desi guys has been in toronto clubs... perfect way to ruin the night!

it may not be as bad here as it is in DC but it still happens. it is an issue in many communities everywhe