I'm not familiar with DC, but was this near the neighborhood I've seen lately where random well-to-do folks are being randomly mugged, assaulted, and killed? I know hindsight is 20/20, but I would have gone inside the place if I felt unsafe.

some people are perfect assholes anna...they prey on innocent, nice girls.

Hope you remain safe in the many more rainy days to come in NYC

Dude, I would have frickin' raged! One of my biggest pet peeves is guys that seem to think that a woman in a public place is somehow obligated to engage in conversation/ be receptive to chat. And it sometimes seems if you are anything short of a stellar bitch on heels from the get-go, it's an invitation. Aargh!

Yeah, I don't miss that aspect of the Morgue at all.

This seems like an appropriate moment to send a shot out to The Blank Noise Project. Lots of psychos out there it seems.

You should have said "The Jerk store called and there ....."

Thats a Seinfeld reference by the way.

Nothing is as sad as a bunch of drunk frat guys egging each other on. It doesnt matter what is said, but it will be followed by high 5's to each other and everyone saying "Your so fucking crazy bro!!"

This seems like an appropriate moment to send a shot out to The Blank Noise Project. Lots of psychos out there it seems.

Check out Holla Back as well. A N N A, consider submitting this to HollaBackDC.

maisnon beat me to it. I heard about Hollaback on NPR this past weekend. Although, when I think about it, I'm skeptical about its effectiveness because there's scant law enforcement on street harassment, picture or no picture. But then again, I'm a dude.

Imagine if you did wear deodorant....... They probably wouldn't have left you alone. Hopefully their foul comments won't ruin what otherwise seemed like a neigbhorhood you enjoyed.

Maybe tasers are legal in DC? I think your right, they definitely wouldn't have been so mouthy if you had a German Sheperd with you and were brandishing a taser or pepper spray.

Stay safe...

I'm skeptical about its effectiveness because there's scant law enforcement on street harassment, picture or no picture.

The point isn't to prosecute (as you pointed out, the behaviour usually isn't illegal.) Street harassers often seem to feel that they have a right to harass - like your (female) very presence in a public thoroughfare means that you should expect and accept being "hollered at." Taking pics with your cameraphone (which many on HollaBack do) is, in a sense, indicating that there are consequences. In the right situations, I often talk back and the reactions are quite interesting. For example, I have found that construction workers are often embarassed if you walk up to the fence and ask them to repeat themselves, etc. etc.

From HollaBack's FAQ:

Street harassment is a form of sexual harassment that takes place in public spaces. At its core is a power dynamic that constantly reminds historically subordinated groups (women and LGBTQ folks, for example) of their vulnerability to assault in public spaces. Further, it reinforces the ubiquitous sexual objectification of these groups in everyday life.

I am so pissed right now I cant tell you, been in a situation where person with whom I was on phone with had a somewhat similar incidence, feel as helpless today as I did that day.

maisnon,

mais oui. I suppose shaming in various forms is the only safe retaliation. Sacre bleu.

Thanks for the warm and fuzzy memories, Anna. I'm thoroughly frustrated right now thinking about how many times versions of this scene has played out in my life. Right after it happens, I hate myself for not having a better reaction. Then I go home and fantasize about humiliating them in the worst possible ways. Then I feel bad for fantasizing about such abuse. Then it gets repressed, and we all know it's downhill from there.

I've dealt with this many times. My best advice? You need to develop a nasty (temporary and able to turn on and off at will) attitude for when you get pushed. Being nice gets you somewhere half the time... the other half you need to verbally hit them where it hurts. They'll call you all types of names, but they usually walk away defeated. Otherwise, I am not against calling the cops...

Right after it happens, I hate myself for not having a better reaction. Then I go home and fantasize about humiliating them in the worst possible ways.

Sruti, I too always think of a great comeback... hours later. I usually just walk away wordlessly because these experiences usually infuriate me and ruin my mornng/afternoon/evening. I like Oneup's suggestion for developing a temporary attitude. Mr. Pooja has urged me to take photos and post them on HollaBack; I haven't yet.

A nice Diwali(or Christmas) present for Anna would be a pepper spray or taser. Maybe a baton.

I guess I feel the need to stick up for the neighborhood (because I live there), but its not all bad. I don't like going down to 18th on thurs, fri, sat nights because of the frat-tastic element, but none of those people live there. The rest of the week, I feel perfectly comfortable as an Indian woman in the neighborhood.

So yeah, it sucks that this element fouls up an otherwise very inviting, very ethnically-diverse neighborhood, and makes people who are actually respectful of others feel uncomfortable.

This would be a wonderful Diwali/Christmas gift.

A N N A-

So sorry you had to go through that. I was harassed on a train in India when I was 15 and I never felt so disgusted in my life.

It sometimes feels like one of those dreams where you are trying to say something, but no words come out of your mouth.

Peace be with you girl. We understand.

Disgusting behaviour really.

It got me thinking last weekend, when this girl I was talking to at a party said that they were howled at, whistled at, honked at, at least 10 times within a 10 block walk in Georgetown. In her words, she felt like she was raped as many times. We are also hearing about recent crimes against innocent bystanders in this area, so please be watchful!

Ugh, that's horrible Anna. So sorry you had to go through that experience. I would definitely get some pepper spray, if only to intimidate the a**holes to back off. I hope the memory of this night doesn't attach itself to your great Tryst memories!

Being nice gets you somewhere half the time... the other half you need to verbally hit them where it hurts. They'll call you all types of names, but they usually walk away defeated.

You're not afraid they'll get physical? I'm teeny tiny; I couldn't take on a bunch of drunk bro-dogs even if I had mace.

It sometimes feels like one of those dreams where you are trying to say something, but no words come out of your mouth.

That's so true, exactly how I feel when I've been harassed by pigfaced assholes...

It's the pack of those testosterone-overloaded, drunk guys and your sudden realisation of vulnerability that reminds ya why we still need feminism...

Also this is not meant to detract from the power and message of your piece... but just because I'm doing a Writing paper right now and v aware of this...is there an inconsistency in tense changes in the first bit?

Sorry Anna {{{huggs}}} I understand and feel your pain.

Taking pics with your cameraphone (which many on HollaBack do) is, in a sense, indicating that there are consequences. In the right situations, I often talk back and the reactions are quite interesting. For example, I have found that construction workers are often embarassed if you walk up to the fence and ask them to repeat themselves, etc. etc.

I really want to address this because after I heard the show on NPR I thought long and hard about this a long time. I've lived in NYC for 20 years and struggle with this on a daily basis. Often it doesn't come in your face disgusting and offensive but rather sly on the DL and dirty, someone walking by and whispering something nasty or someone attempting to "innocently" block your path while you try to walk down the street. And the words are hurtful and disgusting but they leave you scarred and ruin your day.

I experience a lot of comments where I ignore them and keep walking and the guy will usually say "Well fuck you then bitch you ugly anyway." And that brings me to the point of the above. It's a power issue not as much as a "vigilanti" issue. Taking a picture of one of these assholes will not and does not stop them. It is more of a tactic to empower you as a woman. Secondly I am uncomfortable with recommending this to anyone because sometimes taking someone's picture has consequences. You wouldn't want a man to retaliate and further harrass/intimidate you. Hollering back only makes you go down to their level of existence and I'm not sure in the long run and from personal experience it really helps. It has left me feeling utterly violated and strained when I have to say something back.

Personally for me Construction workers are like priests and usually don't say offensive stuff just unwelcome stuff. But the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting. I hate to make this about race but after 20 years of living here I reserve the right to say this. This shit I've heard is so creative and so vile it makes you wonder what kind of animals raised these assholes. And worse are those that come upto you and forcefully want to talk to you, they won't touch you but they keep walking next to you say shit to you and when you ignore them go off on a rantage of filth cursing you out for rejecting them.

I don't know what the solution to this is where the fuck are the other civilized men when this shit happens? I don't need a man to protect me but I certainly need him to take notice of what is happening with his own gender and do something about it. Why are more men not standing up and taking a stand against the assholes that stand on the corner of the street and say shit to every girl that walks by?

This is such a sore topic for me, sorry I'm all worked up over it and it's early. I've ended up in altercations that led to the cops being called over the years and as I've gotten older I've calmed down but it doesn't make it any less hurtful.

walking around with a pair of scissors labeled "Home Vasectomy Kit" couldn’t hurt either....

I have anger-management issues, and I'm afraid that if someone tries to mug me, there'll be blood. Mine or theirs, depending on how quick I can be, but there'll be blood.

Obviously, I need to get out of this mindset. Rationally speaking, I know it's not worth it: I can always cancel the credit cards, I never carry that much cash anyway, and nothing of sentimental value. Just hand over the stupid wallet, and let go the Jet-Li fantasies.

All of which is to say: I understand your fury. I detest any and all violations of my personal space.

But, in the clear light of day, nothing beats ignoring an idiot. Here we say "don't feed the trolls," and the same applies with real world assholes. Don't give them the satisfaction of troubling you. My guess is that most of them don't want to do physical harm-- what they want is interaction. Some people are so starved of intimacy that they'll settle for the abuse you might throw their way.

Deny them that, you'll have the upper hand. Yes, they'll probably insult you some more, but they'll leave disatisfied.

Keep cool, Queen of Sheba, and stay safe.

(I need to take my own advice too!)

But, in the clear light of day, nothing beats ignoring an idiot.

My guess is that most of them don't want to do physical harm--what they want is interaction. Some people are so starved of intimacy that they'll settle for the abuse you might throw their way.

It has nothing to do with interaction or intimacy...

Oh I agree, Pooja. Much the same is true, in a way, of porn. But monkey-mind persuades itself that it's connected to intimacy and interaction. In reality, as you say, it's a power issue.

That's why the asshole bothering a woman in public never says, "I did it because I was a jerk" but instead "I did it because she was beautiful." And that's why he acts surprised (he often genuinely is!) that she doesn't turn round and play the game, or act flattered, or tell him her name etc. "What, I can't tell a woman she looks nice?" etc.

Clueless, and it isn't the woman's duty to give him a clue.

NPR did a recent podcast on Holla Back NYC

But monkey-mind persuades itself...

Dude, leave us out of it. It's you guys who are the mutants, not us.

Oh, and no offence to Rajni or any other macaques is intended in my last comment. "Monkey-mind" is a Buddhist expression for the baser human urges.

Clueless, and it isn't the woman's duty to give him a clue.

Fair, but whose duty is it to give these jerks a clue?

Rajni you beat me to it. Time stamp on our comments is identical!

Fair, but whose duty is it to give these jerks a clue?

Everybody, in all possible ways. But not you at that time in that place. That's the big exception.

But if you're in a work environment and guys are "being guys," if the situation is right, say something. If I'm around family and some Neanderthal uncle shoots off his mouth, if the situation is right, I'll say something. All kinds of opportunities.

But it's not your job to educate a drunk Guido at the busstop. Not because he doesn't need educating, but because the personal cost to you isn't worth it.

I speak as a man, and I beg your indulgence if I fail to understand fully.

ANNA, I am very sorry to hear this happened to you.

And worse are those that come upto you and forcefully want to talk to you, they won't touch you but they keep walking next to you say shit to you

This sort of thing still happens to women in some parts of India too, even reasonable-sized cities.

I don't know what the solution to this is where the fuck are the other civilized men when this shit happens? I don't need a man to protect me but I certainly need him to take notice of what is happening with his own gender and do something about it. Why are more men not standing up and taking a stand

I did both my undergraduate and postgraduate degrees at colleges in London which had absolutely huge South Asian student populations. Whenever a desi girl was harassed in this way, a typical response was for a bunch of her male desi friends (and/or brothers and cousins, if available) to pay a visit to the offending parties -- if they could identify them -- and threaten to beat the crap out of them if they tried to pull that kind of stunt again. Some people would of course apply some remedial discipline right there. The same thing would happen if a desi guy had been on the receiving end of racial harassment from anyone.

The risk of about a dozen solid-steel karas rapidly aimed in the direction of the jerk's face was usually sufficient to solve the problem.

However, Mr Kobayashi's advice about how to deal with this in a work or social setting would be more appropriate in those particular scenarios.

My co-worker was harrassed last week while standing in a line at the DMV...at the FREAKIN DMV! An older looking man started whispering in her ear "hey, you gotta nice ass". She just lost it and started screaming "get away from you f**in f**k". The security guard came over and then she pressed charges. Obviously she was shaken up when she got back to work and told us her ordeal.

But it's not your job to educate a drunk Guido at the busstop. Not because he doesn't need educating, but because the personal cost to you isn't worth it.

Part of responding (or not responding) is the message you are sending yourself. When I say something, or take someone on - it's in a situation I feel is fairly safe (i.e. the middle of H&M - not joking!, construction workers on Wilson Blvd in Arlington next to my law school at 1 pm, etc. etc.) I could be wrong, of course. The reason I do it is partly for them, a la my earlier comment - but mostly it's for me. It's so that I don't have the yucky powerless, "I shoulda said ...", "I can't believe that guy thought he could say..." feeling.

I've been silent about street harassment most of my life (because, of course, that's how most women are raised.) Speaking up one out of a hundred, possibly one out of a thousand incidents has made me feel more empowered.

Who's job is it to educate? I don't think it is mine. I would love to see more guys telling their guy friends that it is not cool instead of what I do see - that a certain brand of harassment comes from guys in groups.

You're not afraid they'll get physical? I'm teeny tiny; I couldn't take on a bunch of drunk bro-dogs even if I had mace.

Important concern, Shruti. The most important thing for prevention is not how prepared you are to retaliate, but how prepared the harrasser thinks you are. This naturally places all women, smaller people, brownz/asians(from the stereotype) in a position of having to deal with this more often. A big man too might be very unwilling to retaliate when harrassed by an unruly bunch, but no one would ever know because people wouldn't bother him in the first place.

Unless it's the same asshole bothering you repeatedly, in which case, punishment (mace, taser) would help. But so would the cop anyway in that case.

Strength to you all.

I've been silent about street harassment most of my life (because, of course, that's how most women are raised.) Speaking up one out of a hundred, possibly one out of a thousand incidents has made me feel more empowered.

Maisnon, you're right.

That's exactly the limitation I face as a guy trying to think through these things. My point of view is too theoretical. A woman's practical experience says, "Talking back sometimes makes me feel powerful." And who am I to dispute that?

Anna - thats the worst feeling that one can have. you should probably avoid those assholes..and not entertain any of their slurs.

I've had similar instances (just replace 'sexual slurs' with 'racial slurs')...all alone 2am in the night! Initially I used to reply back..and sometimes even try to explain that I'm not a "Taliban" or an "Arab". The best way to deal with such morons is to discourage them by politely refusing them once..and subsequently ignoring them altogether.
I realize that there are lot more things to consider if the slurs are sexual in nature (as opposed to the racial ones).

I would love to see more guys telling their guy friends that it is not cool.

Or just saying something, anything when the harassment is so blatent. As JoaT said, "I don't need a man to protect me but I certainly need him to take notice of what is happening with his own gender and do something about it." I was recently harassed (lewd comments) in a workplace cafeteria by one of the food handlers. I was in line with a group of men all of whom heard what the man who was preparing my lasagna was saying. Not a peep from one of them. I reported the cafeteria worker to human resources (which as Mr. K. said, it the right thing to do in this situation), but wouldn't it have been nice if the well-dressed young man behind me had said something, too?

And that's why he acts surprised (he often genuinely is!) that she doesn't turn round and play the game, or act flattered, or tell him her name etc. "What, I can't tell a woman she looks nice?" etc.

A lot of these greasy m.f.'s think they're doing you a favor by hitting on you. What? You're not flattered? Some guy that was 'tawking' to me on the street once tried to persuade me by finally sharing that he liked 'heavy women'. Ok, so you're greasy, keeping me from going where I have to go, now you're calling me heavy, and you think that's going to make me have some sort of epiphany that you might be the guy for me? Yeah.... sala.

But for a lot of guys, it's also a numbers game. It's a low risk investment of not more than a minute or two. If they shoutout five girls randomly on the street, and even one responds positively - that's still one girl who their weak game has worked on. Who cares about the other four? They didn't know them anyways. So why not holler at any women you'd be willing to sleep with? But it sucks because they've only wasted a few seconds or minutes - and you've been left feeling icky.

In a crowded train situation where someone is trying to rub up on you and I've lost track of how many times it's actually been a middle aged desi uncle, I've learnt that to speak up, look the person in the eye and ask the person to stop is sufficient. I proceed to usually embarrass them.

Gone are those days and as a direct result of being older that I put up with some fuck trying to cop a feel. I don't think so. Words are one thing, the minute you touch me it's all over. You could be a 500 lb gorilla this shortie is going to make you scream mama. If it's a older man he usually will not be confrontational and back down or most of the time walk away from embarrassment.

I did both my undergraduate and postgraduate degrees at colleges in London which had absolutely huge South Asian student populations. Whenever a desi girl was harassed in this way, a typical response was for a bunch of her male desi friends (and/or brothers and cousins, if available) to pay a visit to the offending parties -- if they could identify them -- and threaten to beat the crap out of them if they tried to pull that kind of stunt again.

Jai this isn't a practical solution when it comes to a street thug and someone you don't know.

several orders of WTF would have been rightly deserved! geez Anna... what a night!

i have had to comply to always being plus one whenever i'm in any downtown at night and always regret nights out with the girls alone. seriously having one guy there is usually enough to ward off most of the jacka$$e$!

mr kobayashi... thanks for your comment... we defn need more guys to help change attitudes.

and jai, i agree... my guy friends have definitely helped me get rid of some idiots or helped implant a hesitance to repeat that sort of behaviour again. you know what sucks though, is when that behaviour comes from a desi guy... for some reason the disrespect always feels greater.

But in general, about your experience, ANNA - it's terrible that you had to deal with what you did, especially with the guy who tried to get up on you under your umbrella. Those kinds of guys are the worst - you tell him you have a BF (who is he to know otherwise) - and he continues to push up on you. Why? Because your 'boyfriend' is on the phone, and not there with you in person to defend you. So he thought that he had the freedom to do what he wanted. Those kinds of guys can respect/fear the strength of another man, but have no respect for women. So what if your fake-boyfriend wasn't there? You didn't want him under your goddamn umbrella, and he just figured there was nothing you could do about it, so he was going to do what he wished.

What an a-hole.

This sort of thing still happens to women in some parts of India too, even reasonable-sized cities.

Jai Singh, it has reached epidemic purportions in North India.

When I did my college (11th, 12th) in Bombay, there was this guy who would follow me everywhere and I didn't even know who he was!!! He freaked me out because he kind of looked underworld don-ish...big car (when most other kids didn't have their own car), lots of money, so cheap and ugly and lots of ugly, boisterous friends.

He even knew when my birthay was and exactly where I lived! It was awful because of those awful stares and I kept feeling I would get kidnapped. One day I was waiting for my bus and I turned back and there he was. I felt so mad. I told my girlfriend "come with me, I am going to scream at this guy". I shouted at him in front of everybody...calling him a creep and what not. And his reply in hindi was "sorry main english nahi bolta" (sorry I don't speak English). I felt like an idiot. He DID look like he would not know english. Worst, I had practiced for this moment for ages. I knew what I was going to say and I said it with such fury and he didn't even understand a word!

Anyways long story short, I reported him to my principal and the police and that nonsense stopped from the next day. It was really awful expereince and I hope it doesn't happen to anyone else. In India I felt more vulnerable because of there are a lot of roadside romeos there. They follow you, make catwhistles etc ... especially in Bombay. That changed me a lot because I stopped wearing small skirts or makeup. Even now, I almost always wear jeans and no makeup. Plus I used to take advantage of raksha bandhan. I would tie so many rakhis to creeps...it was funny. Plus in India if someone is being creepy, calling them "bhiya" (Brother) usually helps most of the time.

That part of DC used to nice and safe, but I guess not anymore. I feel both sorry and enraged reading the whole incident.

Ew, I remember getting cat-calls from the rickshawvalas when I was 6 years old and visiting!!

I was recently harassed (lewd comments) in a workplace cafeteria by one of the food handlers. I was in line with a group of men all of whom heard what the man who was preparing my lasagna was saying. Not a peep from one of them. I reported the cafeteria worker to human resources (which as Mr. K. said, it the right thing to do in this situation), but wouldn't it have been nice if the well-dressed young man behind me had said something, too?

Pooja I hear you. And I'm shocked people behave this way. There was a UPS driver that I used to encounter in my old building all the time who'd say shit to you while you were on the elevator. It was forced interaction and I really resented it. Eventually I just reported him and just like that it stopped. But there would be other suits on the elevator and no one once said to him "Stop, you are being disrespectful."

Unfortunately the following is also true and sometimes it doesn't allow men the opportunity to say something. There is a guy who sells bags in front of my office building in midtown. I avoid him like the plague but he'll say things if I'm even across the street. Things like "Baby you look so fine today". "Wow mama you are smoking today." It's not disgusting but it's NOT welcome. And it's embarrassing because other coworkers are around me walking by in the morning or evening.

Often I'm with a friend who works down the block when I go to the subway and whenever he is with me the guy doesn't even look my way. I've told the friend many times to watch out for him but he never says a peep when he's with me, only when I'm alone. Which IS a power position thing and it really makes me angry. I really want to deal with it but unsure how to go about it. I'm open to suggestions. I want him to stop. Telling me I look nice everyday in a dirty way is NOT welcome. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear "Goodmorning sweetheart how you doin?" I don't want to hear "You look so good in all over brown like a chocolate" (he said that yesterday) fuck stop saying shit to me and I want him to stop.

JOAT,

Jai this isn't a practical solution when it comes to a street thug and someone you don't know.

I know.

Possible solutions:

1. Ignore them.
2. Try to think of a suitable withering verbal response (although that will risk exacerbating the situation further if he's enough of a jerk).
3. Take physical self-defence classes. If the guy "crosses the Rubicon" and touches you, then know how to temporarily incapacitate him so that he backs off.

Many bullies will only pick on those they think are vulnerable. They will back off if their "target" isn't afraid to retaliate, although it may sometimes require them getting a bloody nose (actual or metaphorical) for them to get the message.

I agree with Jai, one important point I learned in a self-defence class during my undergrad years was that look at the person who is being creepy. Take a mental note of the clothes he is wearing, the colors, the type of shoes etc. Just doing that will make you look strong in front of his eyes because they know when you observe them. You don't look as vulnerable as you would if you put your head down or look the other way.

Sumiti,

you know what sucks though, is when that behaviour comes from a desi guy... for some reason the disrespect always feels greater.

Well, yes, because theoretically the desi guys "should know better". However, you deal with it in the same way anyway.

Welcome to Britain. I did say that we destroyed the "nerdy desi victim" stereotype a very long time ago !

Pardesi Gori,

it has reached epidemic purportions in North India.

It's always been bad in some regions there, and the offenders concerned frequently don't pay any attention to how young or old their target is. I've heard from older female relatives that the "rudeness" in this matter has got worse in recent years, although I don't know if this perspective is accurate or just a matter of misplaced nostalgia for non-existent "safer" times.

For those of you who aren't from the DC area and are not familiar with Adams Morgan, this recent article from the Washington City Paper may provide some helpful context.

They will back off if their "target" isn't afraid to retaliate.

Most women I know want to "retaliate" (actually or metaphorically), but are so dumbfounded at the moment at which it (man copping a feel in a crowded bus, man leaning out of moving van to make a lewd comment, man pushing himself under your umbrella a block away from your apartment and requesting, no, demeanding, a kiss [yes, this has happened to me too]) happens, they just don't. know. how. to. react. Your mind just shuts down. To restate what Meenakshi said, for a lot of women, it "feels like one of those dreams where you are trying to say something, but no words come out of your mouth."

I agree with Comment # 54.

Imagine feeling like a loser when a girl looks at you as if you were patronizing her - you dont need to thank, but dont tell me that I was being sexist. It happened and hence I keep my trap shut and only help when sought.

45.
A few years ago Delhi police carried out a sting operation. The harassed woman would casually turn around say “Police. You’re under arrest. Oh, and b t w, you’re on camera.”

Much hilarity ensued. Studs tearing up / “Madam I beg of you. Please don’t show the tape to my wife.”, etc.

Sweet.

Oh, ANNA! What a f*ckawful night!!

Seriously, is there any tactic that works in this situation? Ignoring it makes you feel like a victim and icky, and standing up for yourself can go either way... sometimes it escalates, sometimes you scare the prickless wonder off.

At a show in NYC, we went out to the sidewalk between band sets. I exited the club first, followed by Mr. DD. Some punkass kid, standing up against the wall in front of the club, looks me up and down, looks at Mr. DD, and exclaims "You're f*cking her??"

I think I got 2 steps in before I realized what this little shit said, Mr. DD hardly registered it-- he had his NY blinders on. I whipped around, stuck my finger in dude's face and yelled "WHAT did you just say??!!!" -his friends actually backed away from him, as if his shit-talking was actually across the implied line of street-thug decency and he was on his own. One even said "you on your own, kid"

Starting with "how dare you!" and moving into "do you have a sister? would you kick somebody's ass if they talked to your sister that way? I AM somebody's sister, asshole..." and "what about me walking by means it's your right to comment on me?", etc etc etc. But the guy was like 18, so it was an easy fight. The bouncer of the club made him come back over to apologize, and he's like "I meant no harm..." -Talking like THAT you meant no harm? You need a M-F*ing word-a-day calendar then, because your vocabulary is in dire need of expansion.

My only regret in that situation? I should have flat decked his ass. ;)

I have to say, this is my ONE area of expertise, since I encountered it DAILY in India.

For the first couple of years I was totally devastated everytime it happened, it left me in tears actually. Plus, add the confusion of not knowing the language or whether or not a riot will start if you retaliate, and you can imagine the fear in my beating heart. But after living there for a while, learning hindi and getting to feel "a part of it all", I learned the ropes with "eve teasers".

If it's just something like some guy wanting to cozy up to you under your umbrella while your talking on a cell phone, the best way to make him feel like he does not exist is to simply pretend you never even saw him and keep on chatting away with your back turned towards him. That's a big insult.

But when it comes to actually TOUCHING - nothing short of a counter-attack will do.

That might be easier in India where the men tend to be smaller and often-times AFRAID of women who counter-attack. In India they always start running when I do this, but over here, I don't know. I was never harrassed in USA so the dynamics indeed may be different.

In India there is starting to be a backlash against the Blank Noise Project girls and the guys are saying, "if he looked like Hrithik Roshan you wouldn't be complaining".

Well, that depends on how Hrithik makes his move. There is a big difference between someone politely showing a genuine interest in you and some guy on the street walking behind you hissing.

Anyway, in India I carry a big safety pin with me on public transportation. If any elbow finds it's way to my breast on an overcrowded bus - someone gets pricked.

It works. They move away.

Pooja, that's so painful (comment #54). And you describe it so well, as does Anna in her original post. And it's alarming to be reminded, once again, of the frequency and constancy of this blot.

I'm not ashamed to call myself a feminist, even if I'm aware of the internal contradictions of that identification. For a long time now, I've thought misogyny one of the most pressing of our social problems. But, unlike racism and homophobia, I don't see it getting better. We're too used to it, too invested in it.

There are words and stories in our culture about man vs woman that would cause riots if they were white vs black or even white vs brown. Over and over again, the media depicts women as weak, foolish and sexually available. And the media expresses the will of the people. It's not an exagerration to say that we function within a woman-despising culture. And it's a lot worse in many places outside the US. The jerkoffs who grab women on the subway are only the tip of the iceberg.

There is only one solution. Strong women. Because that's what human beings understand. The language of power.

But if we're talking about power, there's all kinds.

There's mace, there's the knee in the balls, there's DD's murderous wit (yo!), but there's also other, more profound and farther reaching kinds...

Bidismoker (#54) and Prasad (#57) - Same thing happened to me a couple of times. In both instances, I ended up making a fool of myself..'cos the girl(s) somehow thought that I was "being sexist" and "asserting my manlihood(!!?)" by trying to help her. I backed out immediately.

Why won't guys understand that NO means NO?

For the two years I lived in DC carless, street harrassment was a daily part of living there. Out of all the US cities I've been to, is by far the worst. Men feel entitled to harrass. they hoot and holler, then call you ugly if you ignore them, you always have this fear that the next one will take it physical- I even got propostioned for sex on the green line once. You learn to walk across the street if you see someone walking to you, back tense, no eye contact. And when I moved back to LA, one of the first things I noticed how I could share a sidewalk with a man and I didn't have to be afraid.

I was involved back then is a street harrassment training (back before holla back, I think)and it was really helpful. It wasn't about yelling back at your harrasser but talking back at him telling him that you didn't like what he was doing. (The premise is guys think that you like it, or they are following the momentum- the good ones when talked to will actually stop what they are doing). I don't think I have my pamphlet on this anymore...But they do have a group listserve for DC street harrassment. Don't">http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/dontcallmebaby">Don't Call Me Baby.

No one should EVER feel scared to be a woman that says no. Mad props for talking back Anna.

Another piece of advice given to women (though I've only heard this while in India) is to draw attention to the harasser, shaming him in public. Any anecdotes as to the effectiveness of this tactic, ladies of SM?

Another question;

Have these guys actually had success with this kind of approach with women before?

If so, then it's understandable while they keep doing it. But if not, why the hell do they keep on? I mean, if you've hooted and hollered at 500 women and not one of those 500 women responded in a positive way (meeting you for dinner later that night), then why the hell keep doing it?

And, what exactly do they expect from women? I mean, do they expect the woman to be like, "I'm so charmed by your approach and good looks, HELL YEAH, let's meet later"?!?!?!

It's like in India when I'm buying fruit and some really ugly dude says, "kiss me"....
Now, if I would've send, "Chello mera room..." would he actually have KNOWN what to do with me?

Or the 13 year old kid who passed me in the street and said, "I want to fuck you".

Had I taken him up on the offer would he know the first thing about pleasing a woman?

I just can't figure out what the hell these guys want/expect.

Pooja,

I've shamed and beaten up plenty of guys in India. It works. Generally any type of retaliation worked for me there. I wouldn't know about USA though.

The biggest thing was for me to first overcome my own shame at making a public spectacle in India. They took some time. Now I'm totally comfy with it and do it regularly, as is needed.

Good advice Taz. The post certainly brought up so many ugly memories. I have usually dealt with the hoots/hollers/inappropriate comments by simply ignoring it. In my experience, 9 times out of 10, it doesn't work and instead I get yelled at comments like "effing slut, who does she think she is... skank.. ya da ya da ya da." It always makes me cringe but I've resigned to pulling out my trusty pepper spray. Turning around and speaking to them could be a good idea, but I generally don't like confrontation, and it creeps me out to talk to the creep-os.

I certainly would not think a man is a sexist if he tried to help out. It would be kosher as long as he didn't ask me out for a date afterwards.

I was basically told to fuck off by a couple different girls in college because "they didn't need our help." One girl basically insinuated that it was sexist for me to assume that a girl needed a man's help in such a situation. I merely apologized and moved on. Since then, I've largely ignored the rudeness I notice is prevalent among other males, because I don't want to impose my apparently backward worldview on modern women.

God, this is sad. What we NEED is more men who will stand up and say to other men "What you are doing is not right." The fact that these men are being shamed into silence is sad. Sure, women can do it for themselves, but working TOGETHER is even better. Feminism isn't about reversing roles of men and women; it is about giving everyone an equal voice.

I read this and I wanted to kick those guys into the middle of next week. My first thought was "She needs pepper spray ... any time a guy said something not cool, they get to cry." ... but we live in such a litigious society ... I don't think you can do that... however, if he touches you, like the umbrella guys, then he DESERVES pepper spray, or worse.

What gave any man the idea that he has a RIGHT to touch a woman he doesn't know? And what makes them do this? Are so many men in this world perverts? I believe in the goodness of humanity and don't think that's the case... but there's definitely an underlying societal OK that is given to them, gives them this license.

Women can change that. But men have a responsibility to speak out too. Women have every right to defend themselves; they don't need a knight on his white horse. But if it becomes socially unacceptable *between men* for a guy to grab a woman on the street or catcall her, the behaviour will eventually cease.

I've shamed and beaten up plenty of guys in India

beaten up!!!

beaten up!!!

Senax - hell ya!!!!

And I know I'll have to do it again.

I always prepare myself psychologically for that before going.

Like One-up said - a Durga avatar that can be turned off and on at will, when neccessary.

Comment 69 Uvacha: I certainly would not think a man is a sexist if he tried to help out. It would be kosher as long as he didn't ask me out for a date afterwards.

That basically sums up how we guys feel - just because we help, doesnt mean we are gonna ask you out!

I would love to see more guys telling their guy friends that it is not cool.

True, but the problem here is that like attracts like. I can honestly say that NONE of my dude friends would ever behave this way, even in our worst state, so my telling them that it's not cool isn't very productive. On the other hand, jerks like these tend to move in packs. I, and most sane men, avoid crowds like this and quite frankly, you'll have to work hard to convince me that I should spend more time with these people in order to teach them respect for women. That's there parents' job. If there parents failed, it's probably too late at this point to try to convince them otherwise.

reminds me of the sex & the city episode where a construction worker is harassing Miranda, daily, in front of his boyz. Finally one day she turns around and totally loses her shit, "you got what I want?? you got what I need?" and proceeds to list the problems she's got in her life... and says something to the effect of "can you handle that, can you give me what i need?" and the guy is so mortified he apologizes.

alas, life is not like sex & the city ;)

Pardesi Gori:

How exactly do you beat up guys? Also, when someone is being creepy, what exactly do you say to them? I really want to learn the words because when I am in those situations I don't know what to say immediatly.

Kudos to you girl for being so strong.

Another piece of advice given to women (though I've only heard this while in India) is to draw attention to the harasser, shaming him in public. Any anecdotes as to the effectiveness of this tactic, ladies of SM?

Useless. There is no sense of shame-as-a-bad-thing left in America. Most of these guys probably have parents that were too busy to instill a sense of values in them anyway, if they were even there in the first place. They'll just call you a skanky ho and walk on to harass the next girl, feeling like they still got the upper hand.

I am usually a very nonviolent person ... but when guys dehumanize us like that, I wish I could beat them to a bloody pulp and get away with it.

I meant "their" parents. My lack of spelling skills always gets the better of me.

The better looking the guy, the more likely his rudeness and inappropriate forwardness will be tolerated. I've seen it countless times with my friends, when the big ugly dudes might get chewed out for something that totally works for other guys. We had one guy in my pledge class, who's pledge name was "Ken" because he was so classically good looking, you know curly blonde hair, blue eyes, the whole deal. Thing is, the guy was a complete and total asshole. He was incredibly pretentious, rude and misogynist. he would basically get drunk at the bar and call girls bitches and sluts. And it didn't matter, because they were usually happy he was speaking to them. I used to live next to him, and as much as I hated the guy, I couldn't say his approach wasn't successful.

Bidi, this is what alot of Indian guys are saying to the BNP girls.

Wow. Such women must have real low self-esteem if they don't mind being treated like shit by a guy just coz he's "cute". On the other hand you do see guys that tolerate just about anything from a woman if she's "super-hot". Superficial people with no self-respect.

the kind that prefers Christina Aguilera's philosophy to A N N A's

What is Aguilera's philosophy?

Two words:

pepper spray.

I just can't figure out what the hell these guys want/expect.

they expect to get away with it! it's a bravado thing or something... and they don't give a f$#& about a woman's respect.

I was going to suggest Jai Singh's #51, self-defence/martial arts, but I felt that this is some kind of elephant in the room and people don't want to talk about it. The woman in my life took these up at the first opportunity she got in order to deal with experiences like this. It's not like it needs any special fitness or anything. In fact, she was quite unathletic when she started. Now, I'm looking forward to getting some help and protection from her presence if I get into a sticky situation. I know we all have busy lives. I know we shouldn't have todo it, the harrassers should stop etc. But aren't there some things that one just has to do? Dedicating a few hours a week for just one year to do this should give you confidence for your whole life. The sooner you get started, the better. This weekend is a time to start as any other.

#77- when in the subway and creepy frotteuristic dude is bothering you, a loud and simple "you can take your penis off my leg now" usually works ;)

"if you've hooted and hollered at 500 women and not one of those 500 women responded in a positive way (meeting you for dinner later that night), then why the hell keep doing it?"
For majority of these sad wankers, that's the only realistic chance of conversation / contact w/ women.

I am usually a very nonviolent person ... but when guys dehumanize us like that, I wish I could beat them to a bloody pulp and get away with it.

I often want to take out my Swiss Army knife and carve an "A" onto their foreheads, for "A**hole."

Been There Seen That -

I usually run after them and they run away in fear before I get a chance to beat them up.

But I have beaten plenty. Hitting, punching, whatever it takes.

As far as pepper spray and stun guns..... well, I did carry a stun gun through town one night and wouldn't you know - that's the one night I didn't get harrassed. And I was really pumped to stun someone too.

I didn't carry the stun gun anymore coz I had a fear in my mind that the guy would fall back on a brick wall and get a concusion or something and I'd have to face a long Indian legal battle which would only reach verdict when my great-grandkids were having kids or when I achieved mukti/moksha.

I always have this fear that if I do something really bad to the guy, his family or neighbors will retaliate and have me kicked out of India (easy to bribe the FRO) or something major.

So, basically I just stick with slapping, punching.

I tell you, the safety pin on public transportation works like a charm! And I picked up that idea from a TIMES OF INDIA article written by a woman giving advice to India's female population on how to deal with "eve-teasers" and "roadside romeos", as they are called.

Have these guys actually had success with this kind of approach with women before?

Sumiti - appreciate your input but Toronto is not DC. Parts of Colleg St get bad - but never as bad as this. There is still a sense of community - people who work there, live there - makes a big difference.

Bidismoker, good to see you back here.

I see the direction you are headed in. Like PG said, a lot of Indian guys say such things. Related to the BNP, read this post from Hemangini

Sorry, I meant "are asking such things"

I was basically told to fuck off by a couple different girls in college because "they didn't need our help." One girl basically insinuated that it was sexist for me to assume that a girl needed a man's help in such a situation. I merely apologized and moved on.

Imagine feeling like a loser when a girl looks at you as if you were patronizing her - you dont need to thank, but dont tell me that I was being sexist. It happened and hence I keep my trap shut and only help when sought.

I'm really sorry guys. On behalf of all women out there let me be the first to apologize for this. This is where feminism has fucked over some women that don't understand what it means.

In India there is starting to be a backlash against the Blank Noise Project girls and the guys are saying, "if he looked like Hrithik Roshan you wouldn't be complaining".

Believe me I've heard it too. If he was attractive you wouldn't mind. Well you know what he's not, in fact he's butt ugly, so which part of I'm not interested is not clear? Reason doesn't work in this case but putting someone down gives me sick satisfaction.

Have these guys actually had success with this kind of approach with women before?

Unfortunately I'm ashamed for mankind to say yes. I have seen guys use the same disgusting line on me on someone else right after and the woman is responsive!! So these dickwad think all women must like it.

reminds me of the sex & the city episode where a construction worker is harassing Miranda, daily, in front of his boyz.

Just once I actually got the courage to walk upto the guy after he went on everyday and say "OK lets go come on, your place or mine, or should I just come down into the construction site?" to which he turned red and said "Lady I was just kidding, sorry!"

This reminds me. There was a series called Subway Stories on HBO years ago. One of the stories had Ajai Naidu & Sarita Chowdhary in it. They were in the subway. He was with another friend who started picking on her because she was Indian, then Naidu went on to harrass her and touch her I think. She went apeshit and beat the crap out of Naidu. Both ended up at the precinct. Then he apologized or something to that effect. But those words, the Indian slurs brought such bad memories back for me when I saw that show I cried.

If someone violates me physically I have no problem ending up on the wrong side of the law. None. Have done it before. Will do it again.

Two words: pepper spray.

There are fairly strict pepper spray laws in NYC. You have to be over the age of 18 and register yourself as a legal pepper spray carrier. But pepper sprays can be problematic. More often than not people end up spraying themselves. They are cumbersome and not always easy to carry in your palm as you walk. You also end up spraying everyone around you as a result of discharging it and in a crowd it ends up being a legal offense. So it sounds like an easy solution but it's really not. Generally the only people that carry pepper spray now are law enforcement officers.

I wish they had a zapper of some sort. I just go by and zap someone and it sends a mind numbing painful zap to the man's penis so that he's rendered useless and in pain for at least 24 hours!! Any Mutineers want to take this up??? I can find you at least 1000 women who will buy it!

On the pepper spray idea, in DC, pepper spray must be registered with the police.

BidiSmoker, the best way to talk to a woman you do not know is to say, "Hello, my name is [BidiSmoker]."

My favourite "street shaming" happened in Amsterdam. I was on Oude Hogenstraat (sp?) and it had just started raining. All of the tourists were huddled on either side of the street under the awnings. This guy stood on the corner and yelled "VROUW" at me ('Woman' in Dutch - dude, seriously???) He (finally) figured out that I'm more of an English speaker and asked me to come talk to him, I said I didn't have time. He said, "You don't have even a minute?" And I said, "NOT FOR YOU!" The gratifying part was having everyone laugh at him. FOR ONCE, I think it might have made him think the next time he was tempted to holla at some chiquita.

Also good: telling the guy trying to cop a feel in the crush of people waiting for drinks at the bar that he could remove his hand from my ass or I would allow him to choose which testicle he'd lose.

Re: SATC, Miranda's harasser - after she gives her litany of complaints and is says something to the effect of "let's go, big boy!" says "Take it easy, lady .... I have a wife!"

I got very inspired reading all the comments on this post and decided that the next time someone disrespected me, I would certainly say something. I thought these things as I headed for the bathroom at work. And a co-worker, acquaintance I have hung out with before, stops me to say "hi" and chat while the entire time staring at the breasts (literally, he didn't look at me). All the inspiration vanished, and once again, I said nothing, but this time politely smiled and walked into the bathroom to get away from creep-o. *Sigh* I'm not even pissed off anymore, I just don't want to deal with it...

Sumiti - appreciate your input but Toronto is not DC. Parts of Colleg St get bad - but never as bad as this.

hairy_D - i appreciate your comment but are you a woman? :)
and btw the greatest disrespect i have ever experienced from desi guys has been in toronto clubs... perfect way to ruin the night!

it may not be as bad here as it is in DC but it still happens. it is an issue in many communities everywhere in world. different degrees does not excuse the act itself - disrespect should not acceptable, not even once.

And a co-worker, acquaintance I have hung out with before, stops me to say "hi" and chat while the entire time staring at the breasts (literally, he didn't look at me). All the inspiration vanished, and once again, I said nothing.

I once asked a man "What's the matter your mother doesn't have any?" and it stopped him. It made me feel vile to bring his mother into it but it put things in perspective and he stopped. The staring at the breasts things blows my mind. I mean this shit happens in my office building even if you have a turtleneck on. WTF.

3. Take physical self-defence classes. If the guy "crosses the Rubicon" and touches you, then know how to temporarily incapacitate him so that he backs off.

Many bullies will only pick on those they think are vulnerable. They will back off if their "target" isn't afraid to retaliate, although it may sometimes require them getting a bloody nose (actual or metaphorical) for them to get the message.

To those who want to take such classes, make sure you don't get to some fancy shmancy class where you're taught some crazy moves, whatever. Martial arts are good way of making a establish a good foundation, but it takes a lot of practice. Boxing, Muy Thai, BJJ, are some forms that establish a good base for fitness as well as fighting/defending.

In most confrontational situations, your adrenalin will spike so much that you'll wind up 'locking' up. That and when you do engage, most will throw wild haymakers flailing and swinging. For those of you who can't think of anything witty to say back, well, adrenalin has a bit to do with that, too. Gross motor movements -knee to the groin, open palm strike to the face, if grasped in a forward bear hug bunching your fingers up like you're about to eat rice with your hands and gouging eyes, elbow strikes, are good basic effective techniques which most folks like us (those whose jobs don't deal with confrontation on a daily basis) can use under high stress situations.

Breathe.
Maintain an assertive and calm posture (note: not aggressive).
Never try escalating a situation (easier said than done, I've had my fair share of stupid bar brawls. Looking back, absolutely stupid, you never know what someone is carrying).
If shit hits the fan (from a defensive posture), don't hold back. Fish hooks, bite, whatever. Get out of the situation and call 911. If you're unarmed and are faced with weapons. Run (call 911).

Flashing the cell phone to idiots threatening to call 911 works really well, too. Cellphones provide a good deterrent. I've used that a couple of times.

the entire time staring at the breasts (literally, he didn't look at me). All the inspiration vanished, and once again, I said nothing, but this time politely smiled and walked into the bathroom to get away from creep-o.

Ah, yes. I have said, "They don't talk, you know" before. (The person, a non-English speaker, stammered that he didn't know what I was talking about. So, you're blushing to the roots of your hair because....?) Another common is "the EYES are up here." Or the ever-popular suddenly dropping your head to boob-level.

Girls I love the good ass comebacks to boobie staring. Duly noted. Bidi -- it is never inappropriate to insinuate that a woman looks younger then her age.

You're not afraid they'll get physical? I'm teeny tiny; I couldn't take on a bunch of drunk bro-dogs even if I had mace.

No, I am not afraid. I grew up in a bad area and I've had a very mature body since before I reached my teens... so I learned how to ignore and deal with men very early. I am always aware of my surroundings, and I use them to my advantage. I am never in an area where I am outnumbered in that way...

I'm not trying to be rude Anna, but in the future, if you cannot (or just dont want to have to) convince some jerk that you don't want his attention, the best thing to do is remove yourself from the area. Yes, you should be able to go and do what you want, but that's not how life goes.

I wish they had a zapper of some sort. I just go by and zap someone and it sends a mind numbing painful zap to the man's penis so that he's rendered useless and in pain for at least 24 hours!! Any Mutineers want to take this up??? I can find you at least 1000 women who will buy it!

DD: a knee to the groin (or punch) works just as well and is equally painful.

hairy_D - i appreciate your comment but are you a woman? :)!

and btw the greatest disrespect i have ever experienced from desi guys has been in toronto clubs... perfect way to ruin the night!

but the root of the problem is the absence of accountability among the transients and the spinelessness of the locals to take charge of their neighborhoods.

isnt there a case study from montreal where a group of seniors took back their neighborhood from crackheads - just by putting up a bridge table and playing there until they had reclaimed their community.

anna, i'm sorry this happened to you... i was horrified to hear that someone could talk like that to you.

:(

Anna – I’m sorry you had to go through that.

I was basically told to fuck off by a couple different girls in college because "they didn't need our help." One girl basically insinuated that it was sexist for me to assume that a girl needed a man's help in such a situation. I merely apologized and moved on.

Imagine feeling like a loser when a girl looks at you as if you were patronizing her - you dont need to thank, but dont tell me that I was being sexist. It happened and hence I keep my trap shut and only help when sought.

Bidismoker and Prasad – That is annoying and has happened to me too. Most women who react like that don’t realize that the guy who tried to help, is probably the type of person who would stand up for anyone regardless of gender.

I’m not sure how public humiliation would work in the States, but I agree with PG, it is pretty effective in India. I’ve seen a couple of Dharma Adis being dished out in Chennai as a result of someone being called out for “eve teasing”

I wish they had a zapper of some sort. I just go by and zap someone and it sends a mind numbing painful zap to the man's penis so that he's rendered useless and in pain for at least 24 hours!! Any Mutineers want to take this up??? I can find you at least 1000 women who will buy it!

That’s a great idea.

Zap-on, apply directly to the penis
Zap-on, apply directly to the penis
Zap-on, apply directly to the penis

I am never in an area where I am outnumbered in that way...

Great point. It all starts from situational awareness. Guys and girls get mugged all the time. A good friend was on the receiving end of a brutal mugging and fortunately he didn't wind up dead, but ultimately it was his lack of situational awarness (and being a drunk dude who wandered off) that put him at a disadvantage.

All men stare at women's breasts.

No, not all.

I do, and you do, but not all.

All men stare at women's breasts. The smarter and more well-mannered they are, the better they hide it. But everyone does it.

Yes I realize. I've caught men catch glances in the past, hell even my own friends but that's the difference. Doing it in my face while I'm looking at you signifies utter disrespect for me as a person considering you are a coworker. If you are doing it on the sly from afar without letting me know well I don't know it happened and it's best that way.

DD: a knee to the groin (or punch) works just as well and is equally painful.

I don't want to be touching some slimeball or be anywhere near him. Just want to do it from afar. And anytime you initiate a physical attack you open yourself to be attacked back. Nothing would stop a man from hitting you back. I don't think that's wise.

Please excuse my persistence. Why is it only the guys who are even talking about self-defense classes/martial arts and women on this thread with one exception, not even acknowledging it? Some of these classes are meant specifically for women. You don't need special courage if you are equipped with the right skills i.e. the perspiration obviates the inspiration.

these things are mostly a product of class and parenting

One more minor gripe about your comment, Bidismoker (but I assure you, it's nothing personal!).

I don't know what you mean by "class" here. If you mean "classy," as in "sophistication," well ok, I have nothing to add.

If you mean "class" as in the so-called lower classes are more likely to do this, then you've got the wrong end of the stick. The problem is not just with the fat, ugly, gross, illiterate apes. The problem is also very much with the graduate-degree-holding, Thomas-Pink-wearing, fit and good-looking, six-figure-earning apes. If anything, they're the ones who think they have the right, and who are the most baffled when "she makes a big deal over nothing."

We have seen the enemy and he is us.

......In India there is starting to be a backlash against the Blank Noise Project girls and the guys are saying, "if he looked like Hrithik Roshan you wouldn't be complaining". .......

Believe me I've heard it too. If he was attractive you wouldn't mind. Well you know what he's not, in fact he's butt ugly, so which part of I'm not interested is not clear? Reason doesn't work in this case but putting someone down gives me sick satisfaction.

JOAT - I LOVE THAT!!!

Exactly! As if a woman does not have a right to respond positively to a man who is showing legit interest in her!!!

There is something about comments like those that say, "well, if you are turning me down you got to turn down every other man too."

We women have every right to pick and choose who we are going to respond to.

Again, what part of "no" is not understood by these buffoons?

It's like the laws of "mutual attraction" were never heard of by them.

Why is it only the guys who are even talking about self-defense classes/martial arts and women on this thread with one exception, not even acknowledging it?

Because with all due respect Kurma I think it's impractical to tackle daily verbal harrassment and the general rubbing up on the subway with "self defense classes". Hitting hurting anyone physically when all they did was said bad shit to you (no matter how vile) is not a smart thing to do. It also means you physically attacked someone first and the consequences of this can be dangerous to a woman.

I would defend myself if I was attacked otherwise I have to resort to shouting back or bitching about it. I'm 5'2 and I'm pretty strong and I learnt this because I got my ass kicked defending my brother in a bar brawl and then learnt later that the guy who beat me up had a broken nose and was beaten badly too thanx to yours truly. But seriously I was fairly hurt because he didn't think "Oh girl let me not hit her". He nearly broke my ribs thank you very much. I find that kind of altercation on a daily basis unnecessary.

Self defense is good if someone is trying to attack you physically rape you or kidnap you or something more grave. Daily eveteasing does not warrant beating up a guy as much as I'd love to kill them, it's just not practical advise. At least not in NYC. Because the guy might take a gun out and shoot me!

For once I agree with Pardesi Gori's posts. I have observed that the attitude towards women in North India has steadily worsened. It's practically impossible for even older women like your grandma to travel on public transport without being felt up. It's really disgusting.

In general, crime against women is totally out of control even in New Delhi. The government is asleep at the wheel.

Regarding MACE - a friend of mine carried some with him to India and gave me one. On my return journey to USA, it was comfiscated by the police at JFK.

Why is it only the guys who are even talking about self-defense classes/martial arts and women on this thread with one exception, not even acknowledging it?

Speaking for myself, I haven't brought up martial arts, etc. because Anna's post is about street harassment - i.e. verbal, not physical. If someone say some stupid shit to me, and I respond with physical self-defense, that's called assault (and battery.) It is not generally considered self-defense legally (a la the "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" rubric.)

Jane,

That's the point. It's self-defense. It's not the answer to how to deal with public sexual harrassment ("eve teasing" is so euphemistic). No one is suggesting you initiate a kung-fu style attack. The right thing to do is all the other suggestions above - the non-violent and shaming tactics, manipulating the situation in clever ways or the mildly violent ways that some others have suggested like pin pricking etc. But self-defense classes are a solution to "Wow, I wouldn't have the courage to do that. I'm small. What if they physically attack me? ".

ok... i don't want to be stoned for this comment, but i'm being honest... what about the responsibility of girls/women in propagating the image of a women as a sex-toy that a guy can wind up anytime he wants?

there are girls/women (like those in this discussion) who feel that disrespectful behaviour is not welcome, but there ARE others out there that like the "Hey Baby" comments and the attention and seek it out.

i feel like that the work happening here gets undone in a minute by them... when guys get away with it once, they think they can get away with it again... and they would perhaps rather take their chance to get what they want than to start giving women some respect.

do all women out there respect themselves? and if they don't, does their attitude influence the way guys treat women in general?

And anytime you initiate a physical attack you open yourself to be attacked back. Nothing would stop a man from hitting you back. I don't think that's wise.

I thought you were talking about zapping a dude's nuts in self defense, not attacking them. The same technology could be used for dudes to zap women's ovaries or whatever from afar.

Attacking someone is never a good idea.

geez, typical adams morgan scum..
you have friends in DC, anna; point them out to us so we can bring the pain. mutiny style.

You know what track came up on my ITunes while I'm reading this thread?

That's why I'm talking, one day I was walking
down the block I had my cutoff shorts on right cause it was crazy hot
I walked past these dudes when they passed me
One of 'em felt my booty, he was nasty
I turned around red, somebody was catching the wrath
Then the little one said (Yeah me bitch) and laughed
Since he was with his boys he tried to break fly
Huh, I punched him dead in his eye and said "Who you calling a
bitch?"
U N I T YYYYYYYYY

Surely, you don't think the people who suggested self-defense/martial arts think it's wise to escalate a situation unnecessarily. The good thing about self-defense/martial arts is that it comes in handy for that other scenario as well. It's like being rich - convenient in many ways.

People, please give this option some thought.

i feel like that the work happening here gets undone in a minute by them... when guys get away with it once, they think they can get away with it again... and they would perhaps rather take their chance to get what they want than to start giving women some respect.

I'm not stoning you for this remark, sumiti, but I think you would be hard-pressed to produce a woman who would welcome the comments hurled in Anna's example.

Hitting hurting anyone physically when all they did was said bad shit to you (no matter how vile) is not a smart thing to do. It also means you physically attacked someone first and the consequences of this can be dangerous to a woman

Speaking for myself, I haven't brought up martial arts, etc. because Anna's post is about street harassment - i.e. verbal, not physical. If someone say some stupid shit to me, and I respond with physical self-defense, that's called assault (and battery.) It is not generally considered self-defense legally (a la the "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" rubric.)

Sorry folks, but these posts show a train of thought where 'martial arts' is considered offensive in nature. You're thinking of it's use as in hitting someone first. If situation dictates (a person is charging full steam at you, rushing you), you may have to throw the first punch/elbow/whatever. Bottom line - being prepared is a lot better than not.

You see, even while exchaning verbal insults, having a basic self defense skill set at your disposal magnifies the assertive, calm, and collected attitude one projects. You're only focusing on the physical aspect here. Benefits from training, keeping your cool, and projecting a confident (yet cool) attitude helps in many aspects of your life, including a verbal confrontation.

Have you seen anyone literally shaking, barely able to talk, so angry and frustrated? They are not in control and are already at a disadvantage. Adrenalin is getting the better of them. Now who is to say this verbal situation doesn't escalate into something more?

"do all women out there respect themselves? and if they don't, does their attitude influence the way guys treat women in general?"

Sadly there are many women with incredibly low self-esteem that translate leering and disrespect, any attention really, into positive attention. This scene pops to mind.

1L year of lawschool my crim law professor took us on a tour of a maximum security prison. Of course the men were out of control. Most of us girls simply ignored it. However, there were a good handful of girls that absolutely loved it. I could hear them commenting behind me during the tour and saw them flaunting themselves. They loved the attention. It was absolutely insane.

The situation in the worst for unaccompanied foreign (white) women who visit India. I have seen tourists walking around Delhi being continuously harassed. In the eyes of the average North Indian male, white skin equals loose morals. I have to say that this sort of behavior never happens in Bangalore, Chennai or Hyderabad. It seems to be a unique product of the ultra-macho jat-punjabi-gujjar mindset.

Surely, you don't think the people who suggested self-defense/martial arts think it's wise to escalate a situation unnecessarily. The good thing about self-defense/martial arts is that it comes in handy for that other scenario as well. It's like being rich - convenient in many ways.

People, please give this option some thought.

Ditto.

But self-defense classes are a solution to "Wow, I wouldn't have the courage to do that. I'm small. What if they physically attack me? "

Yes all good and every woman should get it. Personally after having lived here for 2 decades and having had my share of altercations/attacks etc I am prepared by real life more than a class could prepare me. But self defense doesn't address what happened to Anna or happens to 100s of us daily and what most of the women are talking about on the board perhaps that is why you haven't seen anyone gungho about it.

what about the responsibility of girls/women in propagating the image of a women as a sex-toy that a guy can wind up anytime he wants?

But Sumiti by that you are assuming that only the woman who dresses like Britney Spears is the one getting harrassed. 99.9% of the time I have seen men harrass and disrespect women who are dressed perfectly normal and are doing nothing to bring attention to themselves. By implying that it's a woman's responsibilty to clean up her image you are shifting the blame of what is happening on the women rather than holding the men responsible for their poor behavior.

Unfortunately we are only responsible for ourselves. If another woman standing next to me chooses to be half naked it's her perogative. I prefer to hold a man to standards that assume he knows the difference instead of letting him say the same thing to both of us.

And let me be the first to tell you, dressing sexy, feeling sexy isn't because a woman has no respect for herself. I think feminism tends to throw this phrase around. If you want to look attractive to men you have no respect for yourself. Not true. It is extremely empowering if done the right way and appropriately. So if my cleavage is showing a little I prefer that a man look from afar. It doesn't earn him the right to come touch. Remember it is still your body your person whether you are clothed or not.

I thought you were talking about zapping a dude's nuts in self defense, not attacking them. The same technology could be used for dudes to zap women's ovaries or whatever from afar.

Your realize I was being facetious right??

I got kicked out of the DMV today!!

The guy working there started yelling at me because he thought I didnt have all of my papers out ready for him to look at, but I did and he felt stupid for yelling but I went off on him telling him "even if I didnt he didnt have the right to yell and talk down to anyone!" and then I told him that a guy making 3 dollars an hour isnt in a position to tell anyone anything and I think that was the one that got me kicked out.

It almost got physical, but I didnt think it would look right with my foot up a middle aged man's ass. Why are people that work at the DMV such jerk's?

Is this mess with people who post on SepiaMutiny week or something?

In India there is starting to be a backlash against the Blank Noise Project girls and the guys are saying, "if he looked like Hrithik Roshan you wouldn't be complaining".

Another thing which I find strange in North-India is ...that for some strange reason, girls take more objection to slurs if they are spoken in Hindi (by a paan-wala, rickshaw-wala etc). The same sentence when translated in English and spoken by a dude is perceived to be less offending!
Same is true in Indian movies...an expletive/slur spoken in hindi is a no-no..while the same in English is shrugged off easily. Why are there such double standards ? IMO, these actions should be condemned irrespective of the language in which they are hurled.

A female friend was once being harassed by some frat boy at a midtown NYC bar. Some racial comments but nothing as serious as the words directed at Anna. So a mutual male friend took the guy outside, around the corner, away from the prying eyes from the bouncer and street traffic and "housed" the dude. A little blood on the sidewalk, some rumpled and torn clothing, and one dude who'll think harder about his expressing his ugly attitudes.
Violence and justice applied properly can be a beautiful thing.

I think you would be hard-pressed to produce a woman who would welcome the comments hurled in Anna's example.

brimful: the "you slut" comment... no, it would not be welcomed, but the “Excuse me, sweetheart, I’m not tryin’ to bother you, but what’s your name?” comment... i think that would be welcomed and would pass with some women out there. i have seen it happen next to me... the guy goes home with what he wants and the girl lets him. the next time he's out, he sees a girl like Anna and tries his luck. with no luck he may think 'you win some, you lose some'... or in a drunken state might lash out with 'you b*tch' or 'you slut' if he doesn't get what he wants.

Darlings, you look them in their face, smile and say: YOUR MOTHER!
And then let the f***er try and come closer, my 3 inch heel is itching to imbed itself in his toes or his ba**s.

This problem exists just about everywhere, and due to the fact that many women just walk past or try to get away as soon as possible is the reason that it is still happens on our streets. Women, you need to stand your ground and yell at the top of your voice, because chances are there will be some girl who took some defense classes and has been waiting to try out her skills, if not the bastard could do with being shamed. Remember you give people power over you. Oh yeah, go for the throat, a little pressure and he isn’t that tough anymore....

there ARE others out there that like the "Hey Baby" comments and the attention and seek it out.

This is SO true. I was once telling a friend about how i sometimes felt unsafe walking to work b/c this one dude kept catcalling me and she said, "well, i wouldn't feel threatened by that. I love it. I take it as a compliment."

Some women feel proud of the fact that they get catcalled. Especially if they get attention and their other girlfriends don't.

I have to say that this sort of behavior never happens in Bangalore, Chennai or Hyderabad.

It might partly be due to the running gag in tamil movies by vivek and vadivelu getting their ass kicked by undercover woman police officer everytime. Its funny(getting their ass kicked that is). And then after getting caught he calls her akka(sister).

Movies play a big role in determining whats cool and whats not. Movies/sitcoms constantly show how a nice guy does not get a girl and how if you act a little bit rude, hot chicks fall for you. Then thats what most of the morons are going to do. At the end their goal is to get the girl.

The situation in the worst for unaccompanied foreign (white) women who visit India. I have seen tourists walking around Delhi being continuously harassed. In the eyes of the average North Indian male, white skin equals loose morals. I have to say that this sort of behavior never happens in Bangalore, Chennai or Hyderabad. It seems to be a unique product of the ultra-macho jat-punjabi-gujjar mindset.

Yes, Delhi is bad for that, DesiDawg, but worse I have found to be the interiors of UP. It's not limited to jats-punjabis-gujjars. Tilak adorned brahmin youths with Ramayana in hand setting off barefoot to the nearest temple are just as guilty.

South India is more polite than North India in general. Yet I've been harrassed there too. I got felt up on a Goan bus by a 75 yearish grandfather with cane and I smacked him so hard in the face the whole bus almost shook. The odd thing was that the young women on the bus were laughing. I felt very self-conscious because I didn't know if they were laughing at me or him, since I don't understand Konkanese, or whatever lang they were speaking.

For those who did not see what he was doing (nobody), they probably thought I was some manners-less gori memsahib sans tazeeb disrespecting an elder.

Oh, and I am so sorry that you had to go through this, Anna. You take care and let us know if you need a posse/entourage to go out again!

Jai wrote in #34
Whenever a desi girl was harassed in this way, a typical response was for a bunch of her male desi friends (and/or brothers and cousins, if available) to pay a visit to the offending parties ... and threaten to beat the crap out of them if they tried to pull that kind of stunt again

sirc wrote in #132
So a mutual male friend took the guy outside, around the corner, away from the prying eyes from the bouncer and street traffic and "housed" the dude

Consequences for street-level sexual harrassment ("eve-teasing" for the desis) are nice, but what if you are a woman without male friends? The tribal honour system ("don't mess with my woman!") isn't really the best solution to men with dehumanizing sexual attitudes.

I apologize that this is somewhat off topic but Anna mentioned Heritage India on Connecticut and I had a humorous anecdote associated with it. My wife and son and I went there to dine one evening. As is our habit, we all washed hands before dining. When we came out, my son told my wife, "Guess what we saw in the bathroom?" My wife nearly turned white and held her breath. "We saw a giant cockroach". A visiable wave of relief came over my wife. "Oh is that all," she said.

Luckily he didn't notice the artwork. We won't go back there.

I don't understand Konkanese...

Konkani

but what if you are a woman without male friends?

concealed carry baby :)

they probably thought I was some manners-less gori memsahib sans tazeeb disrespecting an elder.

I guess you meant to say "tehzeeb" or maybe "tameez".

But Sumiti by that you are assuming that only the woman who dresses like Britney Spears is the one getting harrassed. 99.9% of the time I have seen men harrass and disrespect women who are dressed perfectly normal and are doing nothing to bring attention to themselves. By implying that it's a woman's responsibilty to clean up her image you are shifting the blame of what is happening on the women rather than holding the men responsible for their poor behavior.

i understand what you are saying JoAT.... what i am trying to elude to and wasn't clear in saying perhaps is that it is a cycle...

the guy might have gotten away with harrassing a girl who may not have perceived his behaviour as harrasment per say (she could be dressed like britney or perfectly normal)... that guy then tries to get away with harrassing/disrespecting a girl the next time he's out because he has gotten away with it before.... not to say that girls that like to dress up (say like britney spears) do not have respect for themselves or are the ones letting them get away... i am not associating a woman's image with her behaviour... i am trying to elude to the fact that some women allow for the disrespect and harrassment of the guys to continue... the same time others are trying to undo it... it's a little counterproductive.... it frustrates me sometimes, that's all.

Wait a minute guys, Martial arts fans

I trained shotokan karate for about 5 years (right now, I have taken a break) with some elite masters - including Sensi Stan Schmidt on his visit to Houston from South Africa.

Remember: Any disciplined art does wonders but please do not get a sense of false security. Sure, a expert martial artist can kill few people with minimal effort.

However, I am going to paraphrase Sensei Stan Schmidt:

Unless you have mastered a martial art (be it shotokan karate, judo, kung fu, or plain street fighter) for 10-15 years, do not be stupid - just avoid the situation with minimal impact. He himself gave an exmaple of being mugged in South Africa and not reacting to avoid escalation.

There is a word in Japanese for such philosophy: Zanshin - It [also] means paying attention to our lives. So avoid such situations if you can or as soon as possible.

I remember while commuting back from college in a crowded bus, my classmate reaching out in anonymity & groping a young woman.
Next day I confronted him & he said "Dude, girls like that".
Girls like that?!! That day I began my 'educate-an-a**hole' campaign. After that he stopped doin 'that' in my presence, either out of shame or fear.
The number of seemingly educated(med students,grads) people subscribing to this 'girls like that' view is staggering.

I remember while commuting back from college in a crowded bus, my classmate reaching out in anonymity & groping a young woman.
Next day I confronted him & he said "Dude, girls like that".
Girls like that?!! That day I began my 'educate-an-a**hole' campaign. After that he stopped doin 'that' in my presence, either out of shame or fear.
The number of seemingly educated(med students,grads) people subscribing to this 'girls like that' view is staggering.

Varchasva, some people DO like that, but I think I am safe in saying they are the MINORITY.

Your realize I was being facetious right??

I guess that got lost in translation :) computer-retina-brain. I've actually ran into folks that really felt that way, though.

But self defense doesn't address what happened to Anna or happens to 100s of us daily and what most of the women are talking about on the board perhaps that is why you haven't seen anyone gungho about it.

Again, you're focusing on the physical aspect of self defense. Now, there are a shit load of BAD, VERY BAD, classes someone can take that DO NOT focus on how to verbally alter a situation to your advantage (read: de-escalation). Any good self defense system would focus on verbal first as a foundation, body language, as well as physical aspects of defending yourself from assault - Verbal, physical, psyhcological, whatever. Every situation also doesn't merit a response, some do, all to different levels depending on the dynamic.

I participated in a course that specfically addressed these things. Girls in the class, in situations simulated by the instructors (that included real knives as a psychological tool to get adrenalin up and fear) were breaking down, crying. Guys like myself were getting VERY amped up and jumpy. Some in the class were karate/TKD black belts and THEY were suprised how verbal situations or projections of confrontation made them 'unlearn' things so fast. Actually, those black belts were in the class as a mandatory requirement for their next level tests. Law enforcement have taken similar classes. Most in the class were never in a serious situation before. Some who were had traumatic memories of defeat/abuse (which amplified their fear/passive-aggressive tendencies).

The idea is to build you, me, or anyone else up to have a basic understanding of how to deal with conflict better. Self defense should include people reading books on philosophy also, on how to train the mind. You've learned many things intuitively based on life experience, many have not had such opportunities. We live quite insulated lives where most expect others (authorities, good behavior, civility) to protect. Protection of the mind, body, and your cared ones starts with the individual.

More on Zanshin

Zanshin is defined as a relaxed state of total awareness allowing complete attention to the moment: the focusing of the mind (without thought or emotion) on everything in and around you.

One can learn that through martial art or just common sense.

Sorry, Anna about the hassle. Maybe, sometimes, physically removing oneself is not a bad idea either.

Is that like "unagi"?

I keed. I keed.

Very well put, Kush. "Paying attention to our lives"; I like that. It's not easy to put yourself in the mindframe to do sudden violence to a stranger. And it's not easy, once you do so, to do it "cleanly," with minimum damage to yourself, and to him. It's all well to talk about eye-pokes, but would you really want to permanently blind a guy because he "brushed" your breast? The first line of action should be to defuse the situation. As someone says, one polite refusal, then ignore, ignore, ignore.

I think it's part of why I subscribe to the (apparently radical) view that verbal disrespect can be quelled if you choose not to be disrespected by it. Someone calls you a slut. It's yucky, it's awful, but you're not a slut, so technically speaking, it's not your problem. You don't have to accept it.

But, as the comments here have made clear-- very many good comments, by the way-- it's rarely so simple in practice. And if there's a physical aspect, there's a whole different set of rules...

Kush:

I don't think those of us who've brought up martial arts are advocating and aggressive stance. One needs to do whatever it takes to get out of a situation in the best condition. Sometimes it involves walking away. Another time it may involve posturing differently. Each situation is different and understanding the dynamic of what to do and when takes a lot of work.

However, everyone, especially women who shy away from martial arts should participate in some form merely to build a good foundation. Some of the guys I've worked with have continually sounded off that women have much better form in martial arts (therefore for size/weight ratio are far more effective) because they don't fall back into bad habits of using brute force like men do.

There is no subsitute for common sense. Martial arts, a concealed weapon, verbal skills are all tools when used correctly help. When not, you get into trouble.

I think it's part of why I subscribe to the (apparently radical) view that verbal disrespect can be quelled if you choose not to be disrespected by it. Someone calls you a slut. It's yucky, it's awful, but you're not a slut, so technically speaking, it's not your problem. You don't have to accept it.

I agree. In U.P. they use the word "rundi", which literally means "widow", but it has come to mean "slut" or "ho", in the context with which it used on the streets.

Amazing how when I didn't know Hindi I had no idea what these guys were saying, and I assumed they weren't saying anything bad in the streets. But after learning Hindi, oh my god, I was exposed to bad language all day long. You hear it through your windows all day long, coz that is how guys in the streets refer to each other - ma chod, bhein chut, etc. It really started bringing my consciousness down.

Anyway, back to the "slut" word. When you say, "you're not a slut", in the above, what is your definition of slut? Because different people have different standards of sexual morality, so I guess that it's all relative. To some people I may be a slut and to others I may be living almost like a nun, just for example.

If she were a "slut", according to whatever standards, would it then be ok to call her such?

why do you think this happens in Adams Morgan (US Census 2000 numbers)? Something about the location?

One important thing to remember is that this is their problem, not yours - which helps in not feeling so...um...defiled.

PG,

I think you are misinterpreting Mr. K intent. I think his message is the same as No one has the right to upset me but me, if I let people get to me with their words, I have helped them achieve what they set out to and Rundi btw implies prostitute and widhwa is a widow.

It's all well to talk about eye-pokes, but would you really want to permanently blind a guy because he "brushed" your breast?

That is NOT what I said. Hence getting good training, just like a good education, good job, is fundamental.

think it's part of why I subscribe to the (apparently radical) view that verbal disrespect can be quelled if you choose not to be disrespected by it. Someone calls you a slut. It's yucky, it's awful, but you're not a slut, so technically speaking, it's not your problem. You don't have to accept it.

No this is not radical. Growing a 'thick skin' is essential to such confrontation.

In U.P. they use the word "rundi", which literally means "widow", but it has come to mean "slut" or "ho", in the context with which it used on the streets.

Wait that's news to me. I thought rundi meant hooker and widow means vidhwa in hindi?

Hey Anna - sorry that you should have to experience this.

I've had similar situations on public transport late at night - drunk punks trying to pick a fight while insisting that I reveal the whereabouts of Osama.

Btw you're wrong. You reacted in a dignified way; they didn't get the reaction that they wanted out of you. So you did win!

Wait that's news to me. I thought rundi meant hooker and widow means vidhwa in hindi?

News to me, also. I've never heard a widow being called a rundi.

Rundi means widow in bangla bhasha. At least it's used that way in bengali books, perhaps it's a word borrowed from another language.

It came to mean "prostitute" because of the phenomena of some young widows being supported by male (friends) or "sponsors", which was deemed "whorish" behaviour by the society they were living in at the time.

And also, some widows felt they had no other viable option to support themselves other than turn to prostitution. But in medieval times, the word "rundi" meant widow.

Anyway, I understood Kobayashi's point, but the word slut and him saying she wasn't one made me think, "well, what IS one? or who is one?"

"Another piece of advice given to women (though I've only heard this while in India) is to draw attention to the harasser, shaming him in public. Any anecdotes as to the effectiveness of this tactic, ladies of SM?"

In india things can get really ugly for an eve teaser.In my city,if there are couple of 'concerned citizens' around and they take the initiative in kicking their asses a bit then preety soon it turn into a full fledged mob attack on the poor souls.

Wait that's news to me. I thought rundi meant hooker and widow means vidhwa in hindi? News to me, also. I've never heard a widow being called a rundi.

according to an online sanskrit dictionary:

1 raNDa mfn. (cf. %{baNDa}) maimed , crippled L. ; faithless (see %{zAkhA-r-}) ; m. a man who dies without male issue MW. ; a barren tree ib. ; (%{A}) f. a term of abuse in addressing women , a slut (others `" a widow "' ; %{bAla-r-} "' , a young widow "'). Ka1v. Pan5cat. ; Salvinia Cucullata L. ; Anthericum Tuberosum L. ; a kind of metre Col.

well you find both slut and widow there... so i guess it may depend on context and which part of india.

PG:

Bidhoba is the bangla word for Widow in Bengli, not to threadjack any further please back up your assertion with facts if any.

But after learning Hindi, oh my god, I was exposed to bad language all day long. You hear it through your windows all day long, coz that is how guys in the streets refer to each other - ma chod, bhein chut, etc. It really started bringing my consciousness down.

Right. Hindi is the only language in which people address each other with words like motherfucker or cunt. In fact, English doesn't even have a word for motherfucker or cunt. Oh, wait...

Can we accept that sexual harassment is prevalent in India as it is everywhere else in this benighted world, and get back to Anna's post and the useful conversation that it has launched?

"Rundi means widow in bangla bhasha. At least it's used that way in bengali books, perhaps it's a word borrowed from another language."

Makes sense to me as the word for male widow in vernacular hindi is "randwa"

On the side note, how are you guys able to put the quotes in such a nice format, when I click the quote tab, nothing happens, is it cause I am using mozilla?

Apologies for the broken link

"English: Widow
Romanized Bangla: Transliteration Schema bidhobA
In Bangla Script: বিধবা "

Wantok: HILARIOUS note at the end of your comment. Heh.

Aguilera's philosophy was that being slutty=girl power. It's quite big now, ask the average girl under 20 that watches MTV.

I think the words slut and slutty have to be defined.

This theme also runs through Desi Riot Grrrl thread.

In short, you do the right thing whenever possible, without regards to the result. To me, that's class, the way my parents raised me.

Horn OK please.

The "Hey Baby" syndrome happens to me EVERYDAY as I walk crosstown on 29th Street in NYC. Now, more than ever I am afraid to say something back because of the rampant illegal (or legal) gun problem. I have even looked on Amazon for books that teach you one liners to combat this. No such luck.

I agree with a lot of you that I would rather not further instigate the situation with retaliating physically and would rather remove myself from the situation as quickly as possible. It also helps that I have one of those faces that looks like I'm frowning, when I am actually not - so I've been told that I look intimidating. It helps - but not too much.

However, this is rather interesting: I walk the same walk everyday to work and one day, it started raining. I had no umbrella so I pulled my scarf over my head and scurried on. The same construction guys, standing under the same scaffolding did not say a word. The same guys who unload a truckful of crappy $1 items didn't say a word. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

Horn OK please.

HHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA. Man, everytime I see that anywhere (yes even in India) I chuckle. I can almost hear those funky air horns (or Trucker's being creative with the horn).

Some DJ should mix the sounds of Indian truck horns and name the CD "Horn OK Please".

Another thing which I find strange in North-India is ...that for some strange reason, girls take more objection to slurs if they are spoken in Hindi (by a paan-wala, rickshaw-wala etc). The same sentence when translated in English and spoken by a dude is perceived to be less offending! Same is true in Indian movies...an expletive/slur spoken in hindi is a no-no..while the same in English is shrugged off easily. Why are there such double standards ? IMO, these actions should be condemned irrespective of the language in which they are hurled.

it's vice-versa here, you can cuss in Hindi all you like but it doesn't have the same shrink-and-gasp effect as English. It's that foreign words don't have the same power or force as the bad words in our mother tongues. No matter what language is your first, you grew up knowing the "Bad" words that were off-limits to you.

I took a women's self defense seminar ( 5 days long, 4 hours each day) offered by the police department in San Diego ( at the UC campus ). Until recently, they would not allow men to attend such a class - it was taught by the cops and on the last day we got to kick the cops (who wore some protective gear) in all kinds of places.

They gave us a huge booklet on how to minimize risk and how to present a calm and assertive demeanor. They know from statistics that 95% of men who harass women do not want a fight, so if they see that you are assertive, they will go away.

It is offered all over the country (US). I do not remember the name of the program now, but will look it up and post in the evening.

Pardesi Gori:

I tell you, the safety pin on public transportation works like a charm! And I picked up that idea from a TIMES OF INDIA article written by a woman giving advice to India's female population on how to deal with "eve-teasers" and "roadside romeos", as they are called.

Very smart!! I'll try that next time I am in India. In Bombay about a decade ago, rumors were that near Victoria Terminal (Downtown), people were pricking people with needles infected with AIDS. They were doing that because they were sad that they had got infected with AIDS and wanted other people to suffer too. During that time, people used to get so scared if they felt a prick in a public, crowded area.

This comment of mine is not about dealing with the immediate situation and ONLY about the long term. So, please read it that way and talk about the practicality for the short term.

But self defense doesn't address what happened to Anna or happens to 100s of us daily and what most of the women are talking about on the board perhaps that is why you haven't seen anyone gungho about it.

It will help in the long term because

This naturally places all women, smaller people, brownz/asians(from the stereotype) in a position of having to deal with this more often.

Why is it that Asian shopkeepers get attacked and taunted a lot more than some others? Because the attackers think they can get away with it. Why is it that a woman walking with some male friends is much less a target of unwelcome attention? Because such a woman is, in the calculus of a physical scenario, a force to be reckoned with. Now, imagine the day when just a woman alone is such a force. It would be nicer if the problem started going away. We can all try to change men's minds on why they should not be bothering women. But it would also be good if we do some things to change their minds on why they cannot be bothering women.

Human nature is such that it tends to refrain better from what it cannot do than from what it should not do. Or as we might say in Hindi, laaton ke bhoot, baaton se nahin maante and we are all laaton ke bhoot in some sense. Again, I'm strictly talking about the long term in this comment.

There is thus certainly a selfish interest for me (and you) in more women kicking some ass when necessary.

Yes, retaliatory violence has serious consequences but so does silence. There's a whole range of options in between those extremes ofcourse. I would NEVER advocate anyone becoming a vigilante, the safest option to defuse a situation is usually to ignore. That's what I tell my imaginary sister.

Damn, I have a funny, kind-of related story to tell, but I think people will jump on me, cuz it will seem callous.

sorry to hear about your day but you just wasted 5 minutes of mine by telling us a story that is common no matter what race you are.

sorry to hear about your day but you just wasted 5 minutes of mine by telling us a story that is common no matter what race you are.

You forgot to mention the waste of 5 more minutes typing the above drivel. Does making something common make it any less offensive? Or should Anna have checked that with you before she wrote it?

But the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting. I hate to make this about race but after 20 years of living here I reserve the right to say this. This shit I've heard is so creative and so vile it makes you wonder what kind of animals raised these assholes.

joat,

no one has a right to say this, so let's not go there

Rani (post # 181) I'm not a woman but even I can anecdotally say that JOAT is correct.

no one has a right to say this, so let's not go there

I sincerely wish this wasn't true but it is. The average harrasser on the street is non white if I must dilute it, yes Indian men are included in it but only within Indian neighborhoods Jackson Heights, Oak Tree Road etc.

you just wasted 5 minutes of mine by telling us a story that is common no matter what race you are.

Really? White girls are told that their p*ss**s taste like curry, too? I had no idea, Tommy. Thank you for enlightening us.

and talk about the practicality

Rani (post # 181) I'm not a woman but even I can anecdotally say that JOAT is correct.

I sincerely wish this wasn't true but it is.

how sad

I have been twice racially taunted in Adams Morgan.Both times on the 18th street strip. Once a black dude called out ' Own a cornerstore or some'. Another time I walked into an Ethiopian restaurant to get a drink when another patron already at the bar started shouting at me ' get out of my home you Indian or Paki'. Both times I swear it was totally unprovoked. I am the kind of guy who, if doesn't hit back, is tormented long thereafter and that's what happened because I had let it go. When I told about this to a friend he said well that's not 'intellectual racism ' because it was coming from Black dudes.

sorry to hear about your day but you just wasted 5 minutes of mine by telling us a story that is common no matter what race you are.

You wasted your own time, YOU CHOOSE to come to this site and to read this particular post.

And I hate that attitude: "everyone goes through it, so why are you the only one bitching." BAH!

ANNA I'm sorry to hear about your day/night...it seems to be pouring in your world, but rest assured there are those of us who believe (as should you) that things will get better :P

I have gotten catcalled, whistled at, followed, groped, harrased, abused, yelled at, the list is quite long...

I think for me the situation that I felt most empowered in was a time on the train when I was talking to a friend of mine I hadn't seen in ages. We were giggly, but by no means obnoxious, and some guy started trying to get in on our conversation. We tried to politely brush him off, and then he started getting abusive, first telling me to go back to my country and then telling me what he'd like to do to me and where he'd like to put it. I was on a train to the burbs with loads of moms and dads, and I started verbally sparing with the guy once it got to the point of being sexual. NO ONE stood up for me, and after about 1 min of back and forth with this idiot, once even standing up and pleading with someone, anyone to step up and ask this guy to stop.

I finally just stood up and yelled at the entire train car about how horrendous it was that everyone was sitting uncomfortably watching this guy harrass two innocent girls. Everyone on train was silent, hanging their heads, BUT the harrasser felt bad enough to move.

Talking back can be empowering, but it's not always the wisest way to go.

Sometimes all it takes to disarm the person is a smile a nod, and as much as I sometimes hate doing it, I have found that in many situations where someone just calls me pretty while I walk down the street this tactic ends the comments there (not that I think it would have worked with the creeps ANNA discribes)

Sometimes all it takes to disarm the person is a smile a nod, and as much as I sometimes hate doing it, I have found that in many situations where someone just calls me pretty while I walk down the street this tactic ends the comments there.

See I realize this might make my life easy at that point but I can't get myself to do it. I absolutely cannot get myself to acknowledge unwelcome behavior. And all it does is begets more such behavior the next day. Most of these incidences happen going to or from work and I have to walk the path everyday and most of the time encounter the same people. If I allow them to think it's OK for them to behave that way it will only escalate.

When I told about this to a friend he said well that's not 'intellectual racism ' because it was coming from Black dudes.

Your friend is an idiot.

Anna, very glad that you posted this. I don't have any adequate words for how bad I feel for you and everyone that has to deal with this kind of dehumanizing behavior, but I think this discussion, from the comments, is a good one. No one should ever have to feel unsafe because of unwanted advances or other aggression. Like many have said, I think it's just an assertion of power by very weak people on others. Unfortunately, it can be extremely dangerous, besides emotionally violating a person. I don't think talking back in most situations is wise. The pin idea for bus/subway rides seems good and of course drawing attention to it when you are in a public place IS important.

As hard as it is, you have to keep reminding yourself that it is not a reflection upon you and under no circumstances should you put up with it on a regular basis from people at work/school etc. Report the behaviour, learn self defense, but above all don't let what others say crush your own self esteem. I've helped friends out in different situations of this type and it really makes me angry. I agree that it is extremely important to speak up against these kinds of attitudes in conversations. As in, when people you are around make extremly sexist or racist, dehumanizing comments. It is very important to let them know that it's not okay, even if it is not directed towards you or anyone in the room. Any physical or verbal unwanted sexual advance is inexcusable. If the idiots doing it don't know better, those around them need to speak up and not leave it to the victim.

Speaking up is very very important in that situation. Especially if it is some fool you know. Explain to them why it's not right. I once had to go after a guy in high school for touching girls (I'll spare you the details). I heard about it after the fact and confronted the guy. The worst of it was that he was apologizing to me thinking it was wrong because the girl was somehow mine or some crap. I tried to explain that it had nothing to do with me and that it was just wrong period. Anyway, for what it's worth, all I could think to do was to make him apologize directly to the girl he hurt. In a confrontation, most times if you try and fight with comebacks it just eggs people on. They want to get a reaction out of you. Anyway, others have said all this already, please be safe out there and don't ever take this stuff lightly. It can escalate into anything before you know it.

ugh, i can totally relate to this story, anna!! sometimes we are ignored or pushed around, other times we are aggressively pursued in a very off-putting way. where is the middle ground?? i know it exists somewhere-- i'm still looking for it!

and WHY do some men believe that if a girl is not interested in their advances, suddenly using the word 'slut' is appropriate to mask feelings of rejection??

'Your friend is an idiot.'

Well that was the crux of what he said. Without having to reveal much about myself or my friend, I have to tell you that not only is he not an idiot but someone who'll probably get profiled on this blog soon ( or maybe he already has been! ). Many here will immediately recognize his name!

Here's a sort of related comment. While at a party with many friends a few years back, there was a jerkoff guy hitting on every girl in the place, quite obnoxiously usually. When he came over to talk to the girl i was dating, she kinda just pulled me in between both of them, and he went away. Later in the evening (everyone being a bit more drunk), while dancing, the jerk-off reached over and blatantly swiped his hand across my girlfriend's chest. I was a bit tipsy, and am usually a non-violent jain, but i totally lost my shit. I lurched at the guy and got two lucky punches into his lip, before we were seperated. I had split open his lip, and i had his blood on my hand. The bouncers immediately threw us both out. As the then gf waked out the door, she was furious with me and insisted on cabbing it home alone. she was annoyed first of all for my drawing attention to the fact that she had been accousted, and then for the fact that i threw a punch.

Even after many years, I'm still proud of my one moment of Rockyesque action, this girl (now just a distant friend) still thinks i was in the wrong.

unrelated, but interesting that she felt I was in the wrong by drawing attention to the action by hitting the perv.

When I lived in Colorado I once went to a club with four of my girl friends. I went to sit down or something and I saw two of them waving for me to come to the dance floor. There was a guy who was getting way too friendly with them. As I walked up the dude says to me, "oh, I'm sorry which one is your fiance?" At this point I realize that one of my friends must have told them that I was their fiance so the guy would leave them alone. But which one said it? I did the only thing I could.

"Both of them."

s***, i would have hit that dude myself!!

much as i preach nonviolence and really believe in it-- when it comes to that type of thing, it's hard not to fly off the handle and deck the idiot who tried to violate another person.

it's a double-standard, but i'm sticking to it!

But the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting. I hate to make this about race but after 20 years of living here I reserve the right to say this. This shit I've heard is so creative and so vile it makes you wonder what kind of animals raised these assholes.

JOAT, that's not acceptable. Not acceptable.

"the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting"-- are you saying they're disgusting because they're Black and Hispanic?

"what kind of animals raised these assholes"?-- Fine, you've had encounters with assholes. That means their (Black and Hispanic) mothers are animals?

What the hell is wrong with you? It won't do. You're better than that.

Imagine if PG started saying things like that about North Indian men?

This seems like karma. I've met women like that including Anna and they definitely are not the most receptive to a smile or a joke. As Anna had put it to a friend of mine later....this guy tried to talk to me and he was a paralegal (this was said apparently in such an arrogant way that even my friend had to walk away). Unfortunately, I told her this to see her reaction. Actually, I am a lawyer at a top 5 law firm. So her musings as the victim aren't all true.

I tried, but cannot possibly read through all the comments. Forgive me if this has been said before...

I'm not sure that "ignore it" is appropriate advice in this situation. Yes, when a dude whistles at me when I walk by, or says "nice rack" or whatever, I mostly ignore it. This is easier to do if you or he is just passing. In Anna's situation, she was pretty much stuck. It's hard to "ignore it" when you're being touched.

Sometimes on the subway in NYC I don't know whether I'm being felt up or it's just because it's crowded. And it's not always Black and Latino men as has been suggested.

Unfortunately, I told her this to see her reaction. Actually, I am a lawyer at a top 5 law firm.

In other words, you are a pompous jerk who likes to manipulate people. Thanks for sharing.

are you saying they're disgusting because they're Black and Hispanic?

No I'm saying that the disgusting men happen to be Black or Hispanic and I'm not going to be PC and say "most" of the time because it's ALL the time but I'm limiting this to NYC because this is where my daily life is.

That means their (Black and Hispanic) mothers are animals?

I reserve the right to believe that any man who behaves like an animal was raised by animals. The notion of humanizing him by bringing his mother into it is yours my friend. I'm not even thinking that far.

Imagine if PG started saying things like that about North Indian men?

See I don't even know what to say to that because sadly I believe that is true as well. In my personal experience the majority of desi men who harrass women tend to be north Indian and I'm not even talking about India. If you go to Jackson Heights or Oaktree road the thugs that stand on the corner and say shit to women are most of the time Punjabi guys. The guys who harrass women at desi concerts, festivals etc are usually Punjabi guys.

I feel a lot of anger reading this. When I was in college I took to walking female friends back to their rooms during the evenings because I just can't stand the kind of behavior those guys engaged in. I took it seriously too. When a few rapes happened on campus I took to carrying a shinai because if I got the f***er who was doing them I was going to beat him 100 ways to Sunday. Twice in Philly I've walked up next to women that were being accosted by homeless and acted like they were my girlfriends to pull them out of the situation.

I don't put up with that kind of stuff, and Anna, dearheart, you shouldn't either. I know that DC's outlawed handguns, which is a shame. If you lived in PA, I'd tell you to buy a gun and carry it with you. I don't advocate people acting like Dirty Harry or pointing a gun at people for every little slight, imagined or not, but in this case, if things had gotten more out of hand, it could have been seriously dangerous for you. But then, you already knew that. :(

JOAT,

I think generalizing/stereotyping any race or culture is unacceptable.

I can speak for punjabi's and refute your claim but cannot speak for a**holes that exist in every race and culture.

I reserve the right to believe that any man who behaves like an animal was raised by animals.

What is it today with blaming human problems on animals, anyway? Leave us out of your sordid goings-on!

I'd hate to say this but I too got this kind of trash almost solely from non-white men. Mostly it's Turks, Moroccans or Surinamis, and the occasional Afro-Caribbean. I think it's in their culture to believe that women are inferior. I don't see any reason to be PC about it. White men usually go about it by winking or making remarks that are not exactly welcome but not disgusting either.

When a few rapes happened on campus I took to carrying a shinai because if I got the f***er who was doing them I was going to beat him 100 ways to Sunday.

I had a friend who started carrying around a shehnai ... but that's not the same thing. A shinai is just a rhythm instrument, whereas a shehnai can carry a tune.

197.
I agree w/ you re: generalisations.
JOAT's choice of words may be questionable but her comments are not completely off the mark.
My black and Puerto Rican friends have been at the receiving end of brotherly love far too many times.
Some of them have even stopped going to clubs.

anna,

my energies are focused on swinging that friggin pendulum back for you ...

and to borrow your words:

Dearest JOAT,

I'm not going to be PC and say "most" of the time because it's ALL the time The guys who harrass women at desi concerts, festivals etc are usually Punjabi guys

I weep for you.

tamasha:

In Anna's situation, she was pretty much stuck. It's hard to "ignore it" when you're being touched.

Well..thats true. It is a difficult situation and there is no easy solution.
If I were in Anna's place, I would have moved away from the sidewalk and gone inside the restaurant. This does not mean that I'm in any way belittling what she did.

I can speak for punjabi's and refute your claim but cannot speak for a**holes that exist in every race and culture.

I feel like we (not necessarily you and I but on SM) go down this path a lot. This path of political correctness. It's past 5 on a Friday and I'm tired. Certain cultures are more prone to certain behavior than others. Are you telling me that the assholes are evenly spread thru all the races in the city of NYC? I urge you to ask this question to women in NYC that have to take the subway everyday. They'd laugh at you. And no I'm not being scarcastic I'm being dead serious. I'd even go as far to say that it's more Hispanic men than black men who indulge in rude machismo but rarely others.

What is it today with blaming human problems on animals, anyway? Leave us out of your sordid goings-on!

Oops sorry Rajni but I don't include monkeys in the animals category. Monkeys are smart! Won't happen again.

do a root cause analysis. it is totally rumsfeldian to say - "kick the guy!", "it's the darkies". the problem is you if you use a neighborhood but have little vested interest in it besides a meal and a drink. cities must evolve to create a collaborative spirit among its citizens or the selfish isolation of the individuals will make the city implode.

put up a community rec center in adams morgan. the cost for the investment will be more than made up when young families or empty nesters figure out the place is safe and start moving in to live there and real estate valuations bounce.

I weep for you.

Yeah that's great. Are you just offended because you are Punjabi? This isn't some personal vendetta against Punjabis for cryin out loud. I know them love them am friends with them have dated them but too bad the poorly behaved ones tend to be north Indians for the most part. And it's not like the disrespectful attitude towards women from certain cultures in India is exactly a secret. This was exactly my point about Hispanics. I seriously believe they think it's OK for them to behave that way because they do that with their own women.

Hairy,

The problem in Adams Morgan is a different one. It's the problem of the neighborhood that has become the drinking strip for dumb young people from all over the city and suburbs. The demographic particularity of Adams Morgan at night isn't racial or ethnic, it's about age. Young people, and drunk; many post-collegiate and most of them educated enough to theoretically know better. It's the pack mentality, as someone pointed out earlier. Then of course a neighborhood where this is going on will attract its fair share of solo hustlers and creeps who want in on the action.

It's a double- or triple-shame because about ten years ago, Adams Morgan was one of the most enjoyable neighborhoods in the country. O tempora, o mores...

Talk of double standards.
Most of the commenters here make hue and cry when some white politician stereotypes all desis as a cab-driver, gas station worker or a 7-11 worker. Now those very people (esp. JoAT) are trying to stereotype all "black and hispanics men" in NYC as "downright disgusting".

This is disgusting.

Huge difference between. I sincerely hope you see it before you take blind offense to it.

No I'm saying that the disgusting men happen to be Black or Hispanic

all "black and hispanics men" in NYC as "downright disgusting".

I'm sorry you had to go through that ANNA. What total jerks.

Well JOAT, in your original comment you actually said this:

But the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting.

Given that turn of phrase I can see why people are taking you to task.

This is what you said in #23

Joat:

Personally for me Construction workers are like priests and usually don't say offensive stuff just unwelcome stuff. But the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting. I hate to make this about race but after 20 years of living here I reserve the right to say this. This shit I've heard is so creative and so vile it makes you wonder what kind of animals raised these assholes.

Certain cultures are more prone to certain behavior than others.

Is that so?

JOAT,

I don't think you ought to get defensive and explain yourself to every Tom, Dick and brown_fob.

She is not calumniating entire peoples. She is telling the truth which many here don't have the guts to tell or admit.

No, JOAT, what you said is "the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting," and that's not acceptable, no way, no how.

If the mayor of London said, "the Indians and Pakistanis in this city are downright disgusting," I know exactly what my reaction to that would be. And if he later says, "Well, I didn't mean every last one of them," I still know what my reaction would be.

Brown_fob, THANK YOU. Why, I wonder, aren't others speaking up? Is this kind of language acceptable here?

JOAT,

I still believe generalizing any culture is incorrect. I know it is late, and there is a whole lot of generalization of Indian girls, which I know is incorrect. As regards to numbers, I did not talk about them being evenly distributed, but there might be a common probability distribution (for a**holes) with variable mean and stand deviation, which might depend on sample size and geographical location.

As regard to Punjabis...go to a Gurugwara this Sunday (if you have not gone there yet) and count the a**holes (you might get a better distribution rather then oaktree).

When I lived in Colorado I once went to a club with four of my girl friends.

I gotta start blogging.

It also makes no sense. If the Black and Hispanic men in NYC are downright disgusting, how do you account for the ones who don't harass you? Have they somehow lost their intrinsic Black or Hispanic disgustingness?

Alternately, if the Black and Hispanic men in NYC are downright disgusting, yet at the same time there exist Black or Hispanic men in NYC who don't harass you, then it isn't the propensity to harassment that makes them disgusting in your eyes.

If neither of these is true, then it means that either every Black and Hispanic man you see does actually harass you, in which case I can't contest your claim. Or, it means you should rephrase your original comment so that it more accurately reflects your opinion.

brown_fob and Mr Kobayashi, I agree with you!

Just a note..
Aren't some of the comments here getting a little "personal, non-issue-focused flames; intolerant or anti-secular comments; and long, obscure rants"

I saw a sign on a train in India that more or less said

"Talking, staring, looking, ogling, smiling, breathing in the general direction of women is strictly prohibited"

In the club "Purple Haze" in Bengaluru (which I think is on... Brigade? I don't remember maybe some native bengalurians here can confirm that) I approached a set of women there with the line "Hi, do any of you work in a bank?"
Yes, not exactly a stunner as far as opening lines go, but I didn't open with "Hey b*tch, come s*ck my c*ck"

I had 3 staff members converge on my location asking the girls if it was ok, who I was, whether I was harassing them, etc.. etc.. In a society that protects women this much, and in general discourages all forms of male-female interaction, it's hard for me to understand the phenom of eve-teasing as it's called. Not that I deny it or anything. Just as I believe a white person can never understand a minorities position/experiences in the US. A male can never understand a female's experiences either.

These paradox's are vexing though.

Are you telling me that the assholes are evenly spread thru all the races in the city of NYC? I urge you to ask this question to women in NYC that have to take the subway everyday. They'd laugh at you.

I would say pretty much, yes. Evenly spread. And I am a woman in NYC who takes the subway every day. The gropings, winks, lip-licking, tongue-flicking, staring, self-pleasuring, unwanted comments and solicitations come from a wide variety of races and cultures.

Tamasha,

Somehow I think it is the media that is generating these stereotype images. I feel like JOAT's comments are in the same league as "all browns are terror*sts".

Let us criticize the crime, not stereotype it with a culture and then criticise/hate/dislike the culture.

The problem in Adams Morgan is a different one. It's the problem of the neighborhood that has become the drinking strip for dumb young people from all over the city and suburbs. The demographic particularity of Adams Morgan at night isn't racial or ethnic, it's about age. Young people, and drunk; many post-collegiate and most of them educated enough to theoretically know better. It's the pack mentality, as someone pointed out earlier. Then of course a neighborhood where this is going on will attract its fair share of solo hustlers and creeps who want in on the action.

It is a problem of disenfranchisement. Which explains why JOAT's tormentors have been disproportionately black and hispanic - presumably the majority demographic of transients in NYC.

I daresay, the jerk population in Adams Morgan is predominantly white. again, a reflection of a population that sees itself as passing through with little interest in settling down and building a life in that part of the city.

i can understand such communities arise around border towns such as tijuana or windsor because of the trucker population and their preferred entertainment options. it is sad that the heart of the american government has been left to the louts.

i blame the property owners - for having leased their land to vendors and transient restaurateurs. i blame the local residents for giving up their housing to rental untis. i blame chain restaurants who squeeze out the family eateries. i also blame the university housing for not plannign communal spots in the neighborhood. put up a recreational center in the neighborhood. most meatheads i knew in college were also tremendously disciplined, honorable people - there has to be a NIMBY attitude - and a collective sense of responsibility and community policing to make real change.

this is my neighborhood. can anyone on this forum say that for Adams morgan?

Abhi_az,

Somehow I think it is the media that is generating these stereotype images.

I feel like JOAT's comments are in the same league as "all browns are terror*sts".

A lot of guys are just fat, stupid bastards who can't really get women anyways, so they treat them with hostility, which masks their desire. But another perspective exists. The better looking the guy, the more likely his rudeness and inappropriate forwardness will be tolerated. I've seen it countless times with my friends, when the big ugly dudes might get chewed out for something that totally works for other guys. We had one guy in my pledge class, who's pledge name was "Ken" because he was so classically good looking, you know curly blonde hair, blue eyes, the whole deal. Thing is, the guy was a complete and total asshole. He was incredibly pretentious, rude and misogynist. he would basically get drunk at the bar and call girls bitches and sluts. And it didn't matter, because they were usually happy he was speaking to them. I used to live next to him, and as much as I hated the guy, I couldn't say his approach wasn't successful.

I never understood this myself, and still don't.

It's called the Halo Effect. It's where one quality tends to obfuscate other qualities and even enhance them. "The Complete and total asshole" behavior is rendered moot because the recipient generally thinks of it as temporary and fleeting and intrinsic to his nature, which is assumed to be positive.

correction:

temporary and fleeting and not intrinsic to his nature

The "Hey Baby" syndrome happens to me ...

I can see what JOAT is saying, but I don't think that can be generalized to every woman's experience (and I don't think she tried to generalize it to every woman's experience either). In my NYC experience, I get the most comments from men of color, but maybe it's just because they are just more vocal about their commenting. Some comments are gross and qualify as harassment, but a lot of comments I get are more a friendly "Hey beautiful." Of course, it would be nice to not get comments at all and be allowed to meander through the city anonymously. The creepiest comments I've gotten are from white men. Everyone has their own way of dealing with it; I just pretend I have invisible earplugs on (unless the comment is respectful, to which I give a hesitant and confused half-smile).

"Of course, it would be nice to not get comments at all and be allowed to meander through the city anonymously"

So if a Brad Pitt walked up to you and said "Hey baby, I think you're gorgeous" You wouldn't enjoy that?

Look, I'm not defending vulgar, nasty remarks, or violent attacks, or anything like that! But proactive, and borderline socially aggressive behavior is something most women expect. Sorry if this thread was meant to be a train of "OMG that's so bad! I would have kneed him in the balls" type messages...

HMF - IMO, most of the girls are smart/wise enough to recognize the difference between vile remarks and 'good-natured' ones.

I don't necessarily agree with the way JOAT phrased it, but as a woman having spent over a dozen years living all over California, the men who harrass me, leer at me, and yell at me from their cars are overwhelmingly Black or Hispanic. I'm not going to begin dissecting the reasons for this, but that's the hard and fast truth of what I (and JOAT) put up with on a daily basis. It's not stereotyping, it's the knowledge that you come away with after dealing with this sort of bullshit for years the second you step outside your door. Maybe it is a geographical phenomenon... who knows. Do these men who happen to be Black or Hispanic represent all men from that particular racial group? Definitely not, and I can say that with certainty as well. Perhaps some of you have had different experiences in this regard, and that's fine. But having sadly been through constant harrassment as well, I have absolutely no trouble believing that JOAT's comments are coming from her personal experiences rather than inherent prejudice, regardless of the way her comment came across.

My experience in big cities or public transportation in the US is limited, but I have only experienced comments like "Hey beautiful" almost exclusively from Black men in Los Angeles. They were never agressive or physical, and I took them as compliments since they were friendly.

Some comments are gross and qualify as harassment, but a lot of comments I get are more a friendly "Hey beautiful."

Thats more my experience. And I'll admit, I love the "hey beautiful"s because often it really is just a guy being kind... not to mention that in many places it is expected that black people who do not know each other will say hello to each other in a crowd of people. For me its less of a come on than a show of solidarity.

Black and latino men are more likely to act on their interests and I can't blame them. That bravado, when it doesn't cross the line into harrassment, can be very attractive... There are many women who get annoyed with guys who can't just come out and say what they want. I don't think I'd be with my boyfriend if he didn't show signs of it.

"Of course, it would be nice to not get comments at all and be allowed to meander through the city anonymously"

So if a Brad Pitt walked up to you and said "Hey baby, I think you're gorgeous" You wouldn't enjoy that?

Duh. Of course I would! =P I'm just saying, most of the times I'm in the mood to focus on where I'm going. It takes mental effort to come out of my reverie, quickly deduce whether the comment is sketchy/scary or not, and then respond. The reason why it takes effort is because those kinds of situations can quickly escalate into something scarier (like pple starting to follow you home) if your response is not right (esp with the creepies out there). I think a lot of women can relate to that.

And as I said before, when the comment is respectful, I don't ignore it and I respond politely (either with a smile or "Thank you"). I know it takes guts (and some game!) for a man to be respectful like that, and I respect and appreciate that in return.

It's not stereotyping, it's the knowledge that you come away with after dealing with this sort of bullshit for years the second you step outside your door.

Brown dissenter, saying that all the men who have harassed you have particular characteristics is not stereotyping. It's an account of personal experience. However, look at what JoAT said:

But the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting. I hate to make this about race but after 20 years of living here I reserve the right to say this. This shit I've heard is so creative and so vile it makes you wonder what kind of animals raised these assholes. And worse are those that come upto you and forcefully want to talk to you, they won't touch you but they keep walking next to you say shit to you and when you ignore them go off on a rantage of filth cursing you out for rejecting them.

That's a sweeping generalization about all men of a particular kind. But she told us later on that it's not just black and hispanic men who harass her (she describes harassment by Punjabi men too). Furthermore, I know (having observed JoAT in a mixed race crowd) that not all Black or Latino men that she interacts with harass her.

I want to second both Mr.K and Siddhartha - that kind of jumping to sweeping conclusions is neither accurate nor useful. We have both black and latino readers here, and I don't want to let that sort of statement stand undisputed.

Look - I have no problem with saying "all the people who have done X to me are Y" - that's a statement of personal experience. I can't argue with that except where I know it's not true (and it wasn't here). But saying "All Y do X" is seriously uncool. It's also patently false.

This is uncomfortable for me b/c I've met JoAT IRL now, and I got along with her. But that sort of statement is wrong on multiple levels.

If you go to Jackson Heights or Oaktree road the thugs that stand on the corner and say shit to women are most of the time Punjabi guys. The guys who harrass women at desi concerts, festivals etc are usually Punjabi guys.

ennis, whatever, she might have said about Blacks and Hispanics, JOAT did not make a generalization about Punjabi guys. Even her subsequent remarks were only her hypothesis that such behavior among those men (not all Punjabis) comes from their home cultures.

JOAT did not make a generalization about Punjabi guys.

Agreed. Nor did I say she did. However, her admission that she is also harassed by Punjabi guys deflates her earlier more sweeping claims about Black and Hispanic men. It is neither true that all Black and Hispanic men harass her, nor is it true that she is only harassed by Black and Hispanic men.

Look, if JoAT wants to say that most of the harassment she has experienced has been from Black and Hispanic men, that's a statement of personal experience on her part. However, that's a far cry from what she said.

See I realize this might make my life easy at that point but I can't get myself to do it. I absolutely cannot get myself to acknowledge unwelcome behavior. And all it does is begets more such behavior the next day. Most of these incidences happen going to or from work and I have to walk the path everyday and most of the time encounter the same people. If I allow them to think it's OK for them to behave that way it will only escalate.

JOAT, i didn't mean this for the daily offenders, but the ones you meet randomly...

I meant "Latino" above. They generally don't like to be called "Hispanic".
----------------------
Many on SM have mentioned that South India treats women better than the North. While this is true, the South also has a long way to go. By all accounts, Mumbai treats women the best, certainly better than Hyderabad or Chennai. I don't know about Bengaluru (Banglore).

It is neither true that all Black and Hispanic men harass her, nor is it true that she is only harassed by Black and Hispanic men.

ennis, i think you're right that you have to be careful how you word things on such sensitive topics, and whether she meant too or not JOAT opened up a can of worms, and now we're talking about race as opposed to sexism. that being said, it seems disingenous that JOAT would have meant that "all Black and Hispanic men harass her" or that "she is only harassed by Black and Hispanic men." an observation trend does not mean that the line isn't noise and that the pattern is deterministic. that being said, i think the commenter who pointed out the socioeconomic confounding variables probably has a point, tying it to race as opposed to the correlation of race with socioeconomic parameters is probably not correct.

whatever guys... have you ever lashed out to an act of violation. here's a story.
my friend told me about how he was assaulted by some kids in paris - he had his camera stolen and had a knife slice his ear. one guy ran out - the other he caught and proceeded to bang up. as he was bashing the thug's head againt the pavement, a wagon with policeguys rolled up - the fighting guys each got to say the story - but as my buddy told me, "who the hell do you think they'd believe. me, or some black guy from the street.". in context, i didnt think this was off-color given what he'd been through but it might seem different to someone walking in. give a little space here.

it seems disingenous that JOAT would have meant that "all Black and Hispanic men harass her" or that "she is only harassed by Black and Hispanic men."

Razib, look at the phrasing. If I make the following statement "Indian men are under 5'6" tall" that means "all Indian men are under 5'6" tall" not that some are. Statements made about groups without qualifiers are commonly understood to apply to all members of that group.

No, JOAT, what you said is "the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting," and that's not acceptable, no way, no how.

If neither of these is true, then it means that either every Black and Hispanic man you see does actually harass you, in which case I can't contest your claim. Or, it means you should rephrase your original comment so that it more accurately reflects your opinion.

Which explains why JOAT's tormentors have been disproportionately black and hispanic - presumably the majority demographic of transients in NYC.

Siddhartha, Ennis & Kobayashi, Abhi_Az, others I dont know what to say. Unfortunately I think we are stuck in the semantics of language and my initial statement while going off on a rant. I could have cleaned up my sentence structure. And perhaps I am unable to communicate this as well as I could.

I sincerely believe you aren't truly seeing my point. The men that harrass me on a daily basis comprise of black and hispanic men and I wish this weren't the truth but this I truly believe after having lived here for as long as I have. I've attempted to say this in several different ways but everyone is offended by it and I really don't know how else to say it differently to get my point across. It has nothing to do with the men who dont harass me who also are black and hispanic because the ones that do are.

This isnt about generalization but a constant experience with a group of men who happen to comprise of black/hispanic men. I however don't known again how to step away from the above belief because I am proven right over and over again on a daily basis. I think people would like to believe that I am being malicious but that isnt true at all. There isn't some deep seeded hate filled place this is coming from. This is daily experience day after day year after year decade after decade that I cannot step away from.

Does this cut down on all the other positives the cultures bring to the table? Absolutely not. Does this put down ALL Hispanic and Black men? Come now. That would be silly even by a long shot to believe. It has nothing to do with ALL the other qualities. We are talking about men who harrass and in my experience that is how it has been.

These are experiences out of NYC. I take the train from Queens into Midtown and back everyday. Why have I never been harrassed by an Asian man for example? Again I'm not trying to be scarcastic but has never happened? Maybe I look like them so the Hispanic and Black men think its OK to harrass me? I have no idea. But sadly even when it's not me and someone else the above stands true.

ennis, i reread the post. see what you mean.

but to be clear, JOAT has a record on this blog. she should have rephrased what she said, but i don't think she meant what she said in a literal manner.

JOAT has a record on this blog. she should have rephrased what she said, but i don't think she meant what she said in a literal manner.

I hope not. That is the reason why I'm phrasing my disagreement as one with what she said rather than a personal disagreement with her.

but to be clear, JOAT has a record on this blog. she should have rephrased what she said, but i don't think she meant what she said in a literal manner.

Bingo! I would have never thought that saying "Black and Hispanic men in this city are disgusting" would be taken as "All Black and Hispanic men in this city are disgusting" when clearly in my mind I was talking about the ones that harrass me. Implied but not clearly stated. My bad.

And the following sentence about being raised by animals well that applied to all harrasses and this comes as a angry harrassed girl rant and not attached to the above statement which is how Siddhartha and someone else read it. They were two independent angry rants.

I couldn't have imagined that saying "a disgusting man who harrassed me was raised by animals" would be up for debate but unfortunately it was. It's the same line of being angry when I say "I want to chop some guys nuts off when he tries to rub them against me." Please does anyone actually do this in reality? I'm allowed to be angry enough at someone doing that to think that without being challenged for thinking it.

I have no problem with you chopping off the nuts in question, roasting them, grinding them and serving them as a shot of expresso. I'm with you 100% on unwanted genital touching.

I have no problem with you chopping off the nuts in question, roasting them, grinding them and serving them as a shot of expresso. I'm with you 100% on unwanted genital touching.

That's what I need a zapper for. The sharp object (safety pin) idea was fabulous but seriously I don't know if I want to be anywhere near someone who is doing that. If it's too crowded and I have nowhere to go I just get off the train. Not worth it.

...brown?

WAY off topic, but:

Isn't the safety pin idea dangerous? Do you sterilize them after each "use" or are we dealing with shared needles here?

I'm no doctor (much to the chagrin of my family) but can't diseases be spread that way?

WOW! This Janeofalltrades chick is PMSing all over this board. You have an old Indian woman's way of thinking. I wouldnt be surprised if you order acid be thrown on your son's bride if she doesnt pay enough dowry.

Bangalore is pretty safe- as long as you are sensible ( read: in a group). Me and my girlfriends have hit the night spots many times- sometimes taking an autorickshaw back home at 2 am... not a problem- Guys at clubs are pretty decent too.. They get the clue if you imply that you are not interested. Public transportation is very safe- The strictly enforced separate sections for men & women help a lot. If you ever want to humiliate an "eve teaser" don't worry the junta will rush to your aide.
In JOAT's defence- I like her- she's always very sensible- give her a break- she's already said that she had a long day.

I hate to make this about race but after 20 years of living here I reserve the right to say this.

I can second JOAT on this. There is a HUGE difference in BEHAVIOR between black/hispanic men and white in the way they relate to me. I know it's not PC to say, and people don't want to hear it but it's true. With me, I know it's because of the brown skin. I don't think they're necessarily the same way with white women, but it's like they see the brown skin and think it gives them an "in".

With me, I know it's because of the brown skin. I don't think they're necessarily the same way with white women

mebee quantitatively less, i don't know, but most of my females friends (white) observe the same (not with blacks as none live around there, but latino day laborers). also the same with lower class whites ("white trash"). a friend of mine who lives in the upper west side told me that she hadn't understood how poor whites behaved until she went to college upstate. her contention was that in NYC that whites tend to be young professionals, artists or monied. you don't get much of the "coarser" blue collar types, those roles go to non-whites.

That's what I need a zapper for.

I think this might be better.

Hat tip to Looney Tunes and Acme.

Holy moly, Anna! I'm feel sick for you. Isn't that weird, I was never harassed for 27 years living in the U.S. (nor were most of my friends), and since I came to London, it's been disgusting. I thought harassment of women in clubs and on the street was just a British thing. :) Yesterday on the train I heard the woman behind me start freaking out. "Could you get your arm out of my space?" One minute later: "I already told you, could you get your arm out of my space? What's wrong with you? Is this what they do in your country? Where are you from? Sri Lanka?" "Yes." "Is this what men do to women in your country?" I was like, bloody hell, what's going on and who is this chick guessing at some dude's origins? I finally got a look at them when I got off the train, and it was a British Asian woman, sitting next to a very very dark, barrel-chested Asian man with his arms crossed.

A question to all the SM ladies...
When you are a guy at a cafe or at a bar....and you see a girl...
what would be an UNdisrespectful way of approaching her?
because disrespecting someone, is never the objective...

Anna:
I am so sorry to hear about this! When I lived in Bombay I was so used to this that whenever I go to NYC I have the same Bombay instincts, elbows out, sharp kada.....too bad you are in my space because you aren't meant to be there! About catcalls I would ignore but if something ridiculous happens, you have to show that you are not vulnerable!

A N N A, I feel the anger and frustration as though it happened to me, because variations on those scenarios have, in fact, happened to me. Also the repeated following by the same creepy guy on a subway over the course of several weeks when I was a teenager taking the train to school. Uchh.

I do want to chime in on the martial arts thing. Forgive me if I'm repeating what someone else said. I haven't been able to read through all the comments here. (How do y'all do it?? I got home after a full day out and there are 246 comments to sift through, just on one post!) I got pretty close to earning a black belt in a Korean martial art. Then life and circumstances led me in other directions. But I do remember the satisfaction of seeing what I could actually do. I've broken boards on my head and with speed kicks, and put guys who were much bigger than I am in headlocks. But it's true that even with that background and training, one can freeze in the middle of an actual confrontation. Someone very close to me was mugged right downstairs from my apartment one evening. He was a third degree black belt. His immediate reaction was to just give the guys (there were two of them, with knives) everything he had, and avoid a fight. He managed to get away with just a bruised jaw (although he did lose his laptop, phone, palm pilot, wallet, etc.) So all in all it was a good outcome. But he was furious at himself for not making note of what they guys looked like, and for not trying to overpower them. They were holding their knives out away from them in a manner that indicated that they clearly didn't know how to use them well. Here he was, somone who'd sparred four armed black belts for his last test, and he felt he'd just frozen. It turned out it was the right thing to do, but he was seething, and felt violated (especially since these guys now had all his information, contacts, e-mails, etc) and helpless. Did martial arts really help him? Who knows. Perhaps his training gave him the presence of mind to not fight back, and in a situation in which his physical being was being threatened, that was good. I don't know. I get so furious and so enraged at the feeling of helplessness when I'm being harassed, but whenever I think of actually retorting something, I worry that the guy in question is a complete freak and will come after me with an HIV-tainted syringe or something. So I just get myself out of the situation as fast as possible and then indulge in all kinds of fantasies of torture, without feeling any guilt. And I do make sure to always be aware of my surroundings: where the exits are, how many people are around, who looks like someone I could ask for help, whether my cell phone has a signal, etc.

I do notice a change in my behavior recently, though. The other day, I was in a playground, and some drunken jerk shuffled over to lean (on the outside) against the fence that surrounds the playground. He was staring at me. My daughter and I were about ten feet away from him, on a bench. He started calling things out to me. I ignored him, and encouraged my daughter to go play further away. But then he started talking to her, and of course, as a two year old, she stared at him and listened. He told her her mother was a "puta." That was it. I walked over to him (staying beyond grabbing reach), looked him in the eye, and said "You're a tall, white man in your fifties wearing workboots, a plad red shirt and jeans. You've got ten seconds to leave before I call the police." Of course he said go ahead, call the police. I did, and he left, lurching down the street. What would the police do? At most they would haul him into the station and keep him until he'd sobered up. But it did feel good to do something. And the cops did show up.

Please stop complaining about what JOAT said. I agree with JOAT. No self respecting Chinaman will ever harass JOAT or any other girl because of the great cultural values given to the Asiatic man by his mother. The Negroids in NYC are a different matter altogether. The negro mother usually does a poor job of raising her sons.

Oneup wrote:

it is expected that black people who do not know each other will say hello to each other in a crowd of people. For me its less of a come on than a show of solidarity. ... Black and latino men are more likely to act on their interests and I can't blame them

Perhaps this is a cultural gap? A black man approaches a Desi woman as he would a black woman, assuming common pigmentation means common cultural attitude. Unaware that Desis belong to the pickle-up-the-ass genus of Victorian colonial culture.

That's not to say that some cultures aren't more misogynist than others. But without hard data, speculating on this is an invitation to anecdotal stereotyping.

Really -- is there any good social science data on street level sexual harrassment? Surveys on the nature of the harrassers, their background etc?

With proper data, you could design a concerted public campaign against street sexual harrassmeny, like MADD or government sponsored anti-smoking and anti-racism campaigns. Given public will, street level sexual harrasment could be stigmatized the way workplace sexual harrasment is currently stigmatised. Maybe we can't totally eliminate it, but we can certainly try harder.

After reading Freakanomics, I have begun to see an economic angle behind most things that happen around us. For example, a married physician is less likely to indulge in the kind of behavior which could cause him to take a trip to prison, destroy his marriage and wreck his successful practice. The level of economic progress in different races may also play a part in the perception that most harassers come from a particular race.

Also, the rich banker is probably driving his BMWer to work and you won't be running into him at the street corner or in the metro.

The instincts may all be there but the fact that you have more to lose by your behavior can cause restraint!

But the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting. I hate to make this about race but after 20 years of living here I reserve the right to say this. This shit I've heard is so creative and so vile it makes you wonder what kind of animals raised these assholes. And worse are those that come upto you and forcefully want to talk to you, they won't touch you but they keep walking next to you say shit to you and when you ignore them go off on a rantage of filth cursing you out for rejecting them.

Doesn't this very story have people who seem to be of multiple ethnicities? What does that say towards this theory. Maybe it says some behavior is written off and generalized and other behavior is taken to indicate something specific. I am sure you are harrassed by men in NYC JOAT. And that sucks. Its not really a trick to turn that into a generalization like you did.

But what you're missing is, particularly when you then generalize toward Punjabi men as well; you're talking about us. We do not have the luxury of walking around with signs over our heads saying; "We're not those kinds of brown men." We will all guarenteed get this expectation at some time or other.

I would not ask you to change your opinion. However, consider how other people feel. At this point, this comment seriously deflates me. What is the use of solidarity, empathy, understanding, when people who have been reading your comments for months still think like this.

The thing I don't think you realize is; we're people. We're brown men. That means something, and its not always something good. I would like to be able to say hi to women on the street and not be assumed I'm "one of them".

And yeah, in punjabi culture, there is something that could be termed "akh tha ishara" or "akh that mukabala." Its called a meeting of the eyes. Its not meant to be demeaning or degrading though. I am sure some idiots have acted badly and they were Punjabi. But you are generalizing and that's a choice.

Its enough to make you want to throw up your hands; if women who have grown up with brown skinned men and have called them lovers and friends can so easily just turn to ready-made generalizations, thats not very hopeful. And the other thing is; JOAT I don't doubt for a minute alot of other people feel the same way. Trust me, men of color do notice this difference

And yeah, in punjabi culture, there is something that could be termed "akh tha ishara" or "akh that mukabala." Its called a meeting of the eyes.

Sahej, don't want to generalize but the Punjabi "Mundas" at most parties I have gone to indulge in the most aggressive, loutish behavior you can imagine. Meeting of the eyes doesn't mean you have to put your paws on every girl on the floor.

I was walking down a street in Southhall 2 years ago with a friend and his wife. They had been married the previous month and she was still wearing the "chura"-red bangles from the marriage and she wasn't skimpily dressed-she was in a salwar kameez. The cat calls and comments were so loud and offensive that we had to cross the street. And this happened when there were two guys with her-I dread what could happen to a single woman on those streets.

if women who have grown up with brown skinned men and have called them lovers and friends can so easily just turn to ready-made generalizations, thats not very hopeful.

So what do you expect them to do? Just because you share your skin color with them, they should put up with your blatantly sexist behavior?

So what do you expect them to do? Just because you share your skin color with them, they should put up with your blatantly sexist behavior?

I haven't described sexist behavior that needs to be accepted.

Sahej, don't want to generalize but the Punjabi "Mundas" at most parties I have gone to indulge in the most aggressive, loutish behavior you can imagine. Meeting of the eyes doesn't mean you have to put your paws on every girl on the floor.

I was walking down a street in Southhall 2 years ago with a friend and his wife. They had been married the previous month and she was still wearing the "chura"-red bangles from the marriage and she wasn't skimpily dressed-she was in a salwar kameez. The cat calls and comments were so loud and offensive that we had to cross the street. And this happened when there were two guys with her-I dread what could happen to a single woman on those streets.

I have been in Punjabi-Diaspora areas most of my life and have never seen this. If I were to see it, I would intervene.

This is a blog for sharing ideas; I have considered JOAT's ideas, and hold her no grudge. I wrote my ideas so they in turn might be considered

I haven't described sexist behavior that needs to be accepted.

Sorry Sahej, I didn't mean you. I meant that if a huge proportion of a particular group indulge in such behavior, some decent folks will also get stuck with a label. That's sad but that's the way it is.

I have been in Punjabi-Diaspora areas most of my life and have never seen this. If I were to see it, I would intervene.

Try and intervene when there are 15-20 guys doing this.

When you are a guy at a cafe or at a bar....and you see a girl... what would be an UNdisrespectful way of approaching her?

Say hi and introduce yourself. Really. If she isn't interested you will know right away and can move on to someone that will appreciate your sincerity.

WOW! This Janeofalltrades chick is PMSing all over this board. You have an old Indian woman's way of thinking. I wouldnt be surprised if you order acid be thrown on your son's bride if she doesnt pay enough dowry.

What can I say? Comments like these make me sincerely appreciate all the other tolerant and incredibly intelligent folks on here who inspire me every single day to be a better person. SM isnt just a addiction for me I think I would be a lesser being if I didn't get to read the words of wisdom from the folks here like Anna, Jai, Abhi, Al Mujahid, Kush T, Ennis, Sahej, Sonia, Ismat, Red Snapper, Chickpea, Amardeep, No Von, Razib, Kobayashi, Kurma, Pooja, Oneup, Desidancer, Siddhartha, Hairy and so many others. Thank you for the comment. I just realized how offensive I may have sounded all day without trying to for you to write that and yet others were completely civil towards me. It makes me respect these people even more.

I would not ask you to change your opinion. However, consider how other people feel. At this point, this comment seriously deflates me. What is the use of solidarity, empathy, understanding, when people who have been reading your comments for months still think like this.

Sahej this isn't about all Punjabi men I assure you. This isn't some kind of a death sentence on all punjabi men but will it kill you to acknowledge that the aggressive desi boys tend to generally be from the north and aggression and harrassment has often a fine line in between.

Just as when my male friends complain that desi women have sticks up their asses and wouldn't give them the time of day unless they were a doctor or lawyer. Just look at so many of the ads on Indiandating asking for specifically that, even when women are not themselves. I believe it. I've seen it. Women behave like total bitches to perfectly nice guys because they may not necessarily come across as "wealthy". I know its not all women and I don't take it personally but I won't dismiss it because I know a lot of men who have had this experience.

I am a brown woman and I love brown men but we were talking about personal experiences and I've lived in Queens for 20 years, went to school and college here and North Indian men were always far more aggressive than men from elsewhere. And when my own boys indulge in stupidity and god knows we've all been guilty of stupidity I will give left arm to correct them. The thing is most of them have grown up and don't need to be corrected. The average desi boy will be the first one to come rescue a desi girl if she was in trouble if that makes you feel any better but can we at least acknowledge that misplaced bravado can be a bad thing sometimes?

Sahej this isn't about all Punjabi men I assure you. This isn't some kind of a death sentence on all punjabi men but will it kill you to acknowledge that the aggressive desi boys tend to generally be from the north and aggression and harrassment has often a fine line in between.

Just as when my male friends complain that desi women have sticks up their asses and wouldn't give them the time of day unless they were a doctor or lawyer. Just look at so many of the ads on Indiandating asking for specifically that, even when women are not themselves. I believe it. I've seen it. Women behave like total bitches to perfectly nice guys because they may not necessarily come across as "wealthy". I know its not all women and I don't take it personally but I won't dismiss it because I know a lot of men who have had this experience.

I am a brown woman and I love brown men but we were talking about personal experiences and I've lived in Queens for 20 years, went to school and college here and North Indian men were always far more aggressive than men from elsewhere. And when my own boys indulge in stupidity and god knows we've all been guilty of stupidity I will give left arm to correct them. The thing is most of them have grown up and don't need to be corrected. The average desi boy will be the first one to come rescue a desi girl if she was in trouble if that makes you feel any better but can we at least acknowledge that misplaced bravado can be a bad thing sometimes?

JOAT,

Nothing will kill me but what actually kills me; ;-). I would agree to anything if I thought it was true. I happen to not think its true about Punjabi people; thats as honest a statement as yours. If I saw a problem I would right quick try to solve it. For instance, I have seen Punjabi people be loud and parties and jaw at each other, so I can say that is true. I have not though seen Punjabi people mawing women.

I will be un-PC to admit your statement doesn't come out of left field. HOWEVER, the second part is, it takes an effort to not generalize. You said you were tired, and also, maybe you were just tired of putting up with tired-ass people harrassing you for no reason. So you said what you said. I actually respect the honesty of it. I do not think you're alone in your statement. But I am asking you to consider that brown skinned men like me will be stigmatized for these beliefs. There is a progression from your statement to the stigmatization, especially if your statement is left unconsidered.

Anyway, I think you feel under seige, but I want to say that I think you're being left ot to dry because you're saying what other people also believe. So I for one do not hold you as a bad person. In fact I consider you a good person for being honest, even though what you honestly said, I feel is hurtful in some general way.

Sorry Sahej, I didn't mean you. I meant that if a huge proportion of a particular group indulge in such behavior, some decent folks will also get stuck with a label. That's sad but that's the way it is.

If it was a huge proportion, being around enough punjabis I think I would have seen it left, right, and center. While I have seen a-holes being a-holes while being punjabi, I have not seen a-holes being a-holes because they were punjabi.

Try and intervene when there are 15-20 guys doing this.

So you would have people believe you had to walk a cordon of 15-20 guys barking out lewd and threatening comments to your group to the extent you had to escape the area to be free from danger? In broad-day light in Southall UK? Ok.

So you would have people believe you had to walk a cordon of 15-20 guys barking out lewd and threatening comments to your group to the extent you had to escape the area to be free from danger? In broad-day light in Southall UK? Ok.

Sahej
I didn't say cordon. They were all standing around on the sidewalk and there were 2 others in a car with loud Punjabi rap playing that kept driving up and down. I haven't seen such behavior even in India.

The sad part is that all 3 of us are also Punjabi and we were treated this way. My friend and his wife still live in London and they have stopped going there.

People driving in cars up and down the street with loud music blaring are stupid

People driving in cars up and down the street with loud music blaring are stupid

Let's be honest here for a second Sahej. If this was a predominantly Tamil immigrant neighborhood such as the one near Gare du Nord in Paris or a Gujarati dominated neighborhood would this have occurred? Hell No. This can only happen in the ultra-macho-gold-chain-wearing-bhangra-rap-listening Punjabi areas. Yuck!!!

Googling around, there is a Indian blogproject on street harrassment in that country

http://www.blanknoiseproject.blogspot.com/

Some cool activism, some t-shirts, and a lot of personal testimony (blogathon 2006). I haven't gone through to see the punjabi/non-punjabi ratio.

Let's be honest here for a second Sahej. If this was a predominantly Tamil immigrant neighborhood such as the one near Gare du Nord in Paris or a Gujarati dominated neighborhood would this have occurred? Hell No. This can only happen in the ultra-macho-gold-chain-wearing-bhangra-rap-listening Punjabi areas. Yuck!!!

Honestly? I think your statement is bigoted. Unless you have something useful to say I think you can find another person to peddle these ideas to

In fact I consider you a good person for being honest, even though what you honestly said, I feel is hurtful in some general way.

And will you accept my sincere apologies that it isn't meant to hurt. I don't want to drag it on. I want people to consider it. I honestly don't go to desi concerts or Jackson heights anymore largely as a result of these situations. Interestingly there are other Indian neighborhoods now in Queens as well and this behavior is non existent there. I've gone to alternative desi concerts and events in central park and other places and never encountered such behavior from Indian men ever at these venues so it's not everywhere but there are certain segments of this part of the world that are teeming with badly behaved youth that for the most part go unnoticed, ignored and worse unchecked.

Is it possible that by Punjabi you mean Sardar? Because by god Sardars are the most respectful group of desi men ever. Infact I will only get into a cab if it's a paaji because they are the nicest peeps ever. Honestly I can safely assume that if a man is wearing a pagdi that he is without a doubt respectful towards a woman. So when I say Punjabi I really mean north Indians so I apologize if this further causes anyone ire.

And will you accept my sincere apologies that it isn't meant to hurt. I don't want to drag it on. I want people to consider it. I honestly don't go to desi concerts or Jackson heights anymore largely as a result of these situations. Interestingly there are other Indian neighborhoods now in Queens as well and this behavior is non existent there. I've gone to alternative desi concerts and events in central park and other places and never encountered such behavior from Indian men ever at these venues so it's not everywhere but there are certain segments of this part of the world that are teeming with badly behaved youth that for the most part go unnoticed, ignored and worse unchecked.

Is it possible that by Punjabi you mean Sardar? Because by god Sardars are the most respectful group of desi men ever. Infact I will only get into a cab if it's a paaji because they are the nicest peeps ever. Honestly I can safely assume that if a man is wearing a pagdi that he is without a doubt respectful towards a woman. So when I say Punjabi I really mean north Indians so I apologize if this further causes anyone ire.

I don't think you need to apologize, but your apology is graciously excepted. JOAT, I can't admit to something I don't believe. I simply have not seen these people, or if I have seen them, I think of them as a-holes, not Punjabi a-holes. I know all types of people who happen to be punjabi; I have never found the stereotypes of punjabi people accurate, thats point blank. I don't mean just Sardars, although perhaps Sardars are more cognizant of the right thing to do, as they make a choice everyday to do the right thing by putting on their Pugdi. Still, I don't think you can generalize about anyone, even Sardars.

There are localized expectations of behavior, and where these expectations are low; as in a bar; as in a college town after a football game; as in a desi concert in Jackson Heights (which I take from your description), low expectations create bad behavior.

Other than that, maybe we both need some sleep, na? Good night JOAT. :-)

Fair enough Sahej. Have a good night.

but can we at least acknowledge that misplaced bravado can be a bad thing sometimes?

JOAT, I cross streets, go into tunnel vision, and pretty much make myself as unapproachable as possible to avoid having guys (mostly black) try to talk to me. You're not alone... but by now I think you realize the problem wasn't so much what you said, but how you said it. Don't feel too bad.

Somebody may have already pointed this out in the tome of comments, but some of our Muslim sisters argue that the niqab liberates them from worrying about this kind of abuse. Doesn't that put the responsibility WAY on the female end of things when it comes to maintaining respectful relationships between men and women? Inevitably, anyway, the burka of age falls and we all become invisible -- especially in America. Or do we then shift to encountering agist attacks instead of sexual harassment? On that cheerful note, good night, dear Mutineers. And Anna, get another dog, why don't you?

Somebody may have already pointed this out in the tome of comments, but some of our Muslim sisters argue that the niqab liberates them from worrying about this kind of abuse. Doesn't that put the responsibility WAY on the female end of things when it comes to maintaining respectful relationships between men and women?

Some women may view it that way but I wouldn't endorse such a view. If a women is wearing a niqab to feel protected, one must ask protected from whom? and why?

Women are too beautiful inside and out. Humanity is robbed of its humility by boxing up the better sex. Modesty is a state of being and should apply to both male and female.

Besides, callipygian is too cool of a word to waste =)

I have to agree with the comment someone made about Black and Hispanic men. I recently moved back to NYC after college and it's been a jarring experience. I recently wore what I think of as one of the more conservative tops in my wardrobe and after being propositioned by 5-10 (black or hispanic) men, I put a leather jacket over the top although it was a warm day. It makes me feel dirty and I hate it - and it makes me hate them.

I grew up in North India..and went to college in Bombay. We had a pretty good mix in our hostel...people from North, South and East.
From my personal experience, I feel that people from the South were less likely to indulge in so-called "eve teasing" (mostly stupid comments etc.) as compared to those from Northern states (Punjab, Delhi, UP, Bihar). I don't know the real reason behind this. At this point, I'd like to say that I'm not trying to make any sweeping generalizations. Its just from my "personal experience".
Language might be one of the reasons....most people in Bombay understand Hindi..while people from South Indian states are less likely to talk in Hindi.

From my personal experience, I feel that people from the South were less likely to indulge in so-called "eve teasing" (mostly stupid comments etc.) as compared to those from Northern states (Punjab, Delhi, UP, Bihar). I don't know the real reason behind this. At this point, I'd like to say that I'm not trying to make any sweeping generalizations. Its just from my "personal experience". Language might be one of the reasons....most people in Bombay understand Hindi..while people from South Indian states are less likely to talk in Hindi.

I think it is the cultural in general. I am from north india too and most of my auntys are really strong, loud talking ladies. Not afraid to speak out and usually create a very entertaining scene everywhere.

I don't see the same culture in south india. I have noticed ladies are more shy, very respectful and usually quiet.

I think it is the cultural in general. I am from north india too and most of my auntys are really strong, loud talking ladies. Not afraid to speak out and usually create a very entertaining scene everywhere.

I don't see the same culture in south india. I have noticed ladies are more shy, very respectful and usually quiet.

It is cultural thing. One more interesting thing I have seen is the unnecessary flauting of money that goes on especially among the Punjabis. It is so in your face kind of brash that it is nauseating.

One more interesting thing I have seen is the unnecessary flauting of money that goes on especially among the Punjabis. It is so in your face kind of brash that it is nauseating.

Ugh ugh ugh. This thread seems to be full of hate, not anger at anti-feminism and street-harrassing jocks but a whole lotta hate. The comments made by another person above on Black and Hispanic men just add to the stench of hypocrisy...

How is it that people who will go up in arms about a 'Macaca' slur are so quick to stereotype, judge and generalise about others?

Of course all stereotypes have a grain of truth in them somewhere... I mean all communities in India and in America have their own particularities. But disintegrating into the whole 'South Indians shy and demure vs. North Indians loud and brash' dichotomy to add to that comment on Black and Latino men...

Can't people who say things like that see a pattern?...hate breeds hate. Everyone wants to be seen as an individual, as who they truly are, which is partly why so many people come to sites like this. Some of the 'interesting' sociological observations on different cultures on this thread make me sick.

"Without pondering or hesitating, I yelled back a suggestion for what he could do with himself, but I felt impotent, despite it."

I THINK THAT IT IS EXTREMELY IMPERATIVE TO NOTE, THAT IN THE MIDST OF ALL OF THAT, AND NO MATTER HOW BREIF, HOW SIMPLE AND HOW EFFECTIVE YOUR RETALIATION WAS AND EVEN THE EVENTS WHICH TRANSPIRED AFTER YOUR RETALIATION, EVEN IF YOU FEEL THAT YOU LOST, YOU STILL MANAGED TO STAND UP WHICH TAKES A LOT OF COURAGE ESPECIALLY AGAINST A BUNCH OF DRUNKEN SALA KUTHA'S. A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD NOT EVEN CONSIDERING UTTERING ONE WORD OUT OF THEIR MOUTH NOR WOULD THEY EVEN QUESTION WHAT ONE SAID TO THEM. THIS ELEMENT OF STANDING UP IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, NO MATTER HOW BIG OR HOW SMALL IS TRULY INSPIRING. I KNOW THAT I MAY BE MISSING THE ENTIRE POINT OF YOUR STORY...AND YOU HAVE MY SINCEREST APPOLOGIES IF I DO THAT AND IF I SOUND LIKE I'M PREACHING BUT THAT ASPECT OF STANDING UP IS AMAZING!!! ALWAYS STAND UP DIDI! EVEN IN DISGRACE THERE IS TRIUMPH!

I’m getting tried of the Punjabi bashing. No one community has the monopoly on mistreating women. For those who think that other Indian communities are somehow immune to this issue. Check out the following:

http://www.indiatogether.org/women/health/ker_depn.htm
According to a study conducted by the International Clinical Epidemeological Network and the International Centre for Research on Women, domestic violence in Kerala is very high. While nationally, 37 per cent women are subjected to physical torture and 35.5 per cent to mental harassment at home, in Kerala the figures are as high as 62.3 and 61.61. The study also reveals that 51.7 per cent of rural women are victims of domestic torture in India. But, in the fully literate Kerala, the figure is 68.8 per cent. Statistics with the State Crime Record Bureau reveal that the occurrence of rape, molestation, dowry harassment and eve-teasing is growing by the year. Violence against women affect both their physical and mental health.

http://www.countercurrents.org/gender-jacob230604.htm
The Malayala Manorama, the largest circulated daily in the country, recently did what no other newspaper has done in recent times: it ran a series of articles from anuary 30 to February 3, exposing the difficulties and trauma that women in the most literate state in India were experiencing in public, thanks to its men.

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1017197
The eve teasing scene in Mumbai is pathetic. Everywhere you go, you are hounded by catcalls and lurid gestures. It's very disgusting; no one is spared. In buses I have seen little girls being felt up by men. Churchgate is the worst; there are many louts hanging around. This city is so indifferent, they don't even bother to acknowledge that some guy just whistled at a girl. Once in a while an old woman probably yells at the ruffians. Everyone seems to ignore the ever-growing eve teasing issue that this city faces. — Suchita Agrawal

http://ncrb.nic.in/crime2004/cii-2004/CHAP5.pdf#search=%22%22eve%20teasing%22%20%22Andhra%20Pradesh%22%20highest%22
From the National Resource Centre for Women
Andhra Pradesh, accounting for nearly 7.3 per cent of the country’s population, has accounted for 12.3% of total incidents of crime against women in the country by reporting 18,921 cases.

Madhya Pradesh has reported the highest number of Rape cases (2,875) accounting for 15.8% of total such cases reported in the country.

Incidents of Molestation in the country have increased by 4.9 per cent over the previous year (32,939). 19.4% of total such cases were reported from Madhya Pradesh (6,690) which also reported the highest rate (10.3) as compared to the National average of 3.2
Sexual Harassment (Eve –Teasing)
Uttar Pradesh has reported 26.8 per cent of cases (2,682) followed by Andhra Pradesh 23.1 per cent (2,310). Haryana has reported the highest crime rate 3.8 as compared to the National average of 0.9.
Immoral Traffic
52.6% (3,022) cases were reported from Tamil Nadu which also reported the highest crime rate of 4.7 as compared to the National average of 0.5.
Indecent Representation of Women
Andhra Pradesh with 1,102 cases has accounted for 80.0 per cent of total such cases at the National level. It has also reported the highest crime rate of 1.4 as compared to the National average rate of 0.1 only.

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=18200
Kolkata
Police sergeant Bapi Sen, who was beaten unconscious by five reserve force constables of the city police for protesting against eve-teasing on New Year's Eve, died on Monday.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/21/stories/2006012118420300.htm
Tamil Nadu - Madurai
No escape from eve teasing
Eve teasing menace is rampant in the city, since many victims refrain from lodging a complaint, writes S. Vijay Kumar

Ignoring suggestive gestures, pretending not to have heard unpleasant comments and facing indecent proposals in public places. For some college-going girls/working women, particularly those using the public transport, these qualities appear to have become imperative. Eve teasing menace is continuing in the city, since many refrain from lodging a complaint with the police unless it goes beyond a tolerable level. The target places are bus stops near women's hostels and those along routes leading to girls' colleges. Interestingly, the suspects are not youths alone.

Since some completely unbiased people want to play the statistics game (with a name like gal sun, yeah right), here are some of mine. Let's just do a quick comparison of Bangalore and Delhi via a quick google search.

Bangalore
The IT capital may have gained the notorious tag of “unsafe city” after the gruesome kidnap and murder of Prathiba Shrikanthamurthy last week. Bangalore women may still have to watch out for uncomfortable stares, lewd comments and unwelcome touches as they travel, shop and work. But a peek into the Bangalore Police’s records will make one doubt these fears.

For, according to the City Crime Records Bureau (CCRB) statistics, only 38 women have been eve-teased this year, three more than the previous year’s record.

Delhi
Statistics show a marked increase in crime against women in the capital, The total number of eve-teasing cases registered with the police till May was 574.

So there you go. 38 in Bangalore and 574 in Delhi. Wanna guess where women feel safer?

I’m getting tried of the Punjabi bashing. No one community has the monopoly on mistreating women.

I grew up in Delhi and I have to agree that it was a distressing climate in terms of harrassment. There is no equivalent experience in Bombay (or the South from what I've heard). It's also true that women are mistreated all over. Perhaps the manner in which they are mistreated is what makes the difference. Since this thread is about being harrassed on the street, naturally the punjabi or north indian element is what will be talked about since this is the form in which mistreatment of women is encountered in the north. No doubt women are mistreaed elsewhere in India and the rest of the world - just in different ways.

I do not remember noticing a similar jumping up and down when assertions are made on this board that south indians are more intelligent etc. This does not imply north indians are dumb, does it? The indigenous culture of the south is more intact than that of the north which provides for solid cultural grounding. North Indians have defintely lost their moorings and do not have a dominant, forecful culture like the so-called ABCD's do to tether themselves to. In my opinion, north indians are infinitely worse off in the confusion department and this is reflected in all sorts of ways, from the way they dress to the houses they live in and to their behavior on the streets. Not to mention their grades. It will be interesting to observe how well the supposedly brilliant south indians do without the benefit of the south indian culture when they get to be 4th generation americans. Will they continue to be brilliant or will they blend in with the other stereotype - the stupid american.

It is an emperical fact that the climate for women is way, way, worse in north india than the south and many of us have lived and suffered through it. If this sounds like stereotyping or demonizing, what would the word be for people who refuse to acknowledge that people suffer more in some parts than others? This is not a rhetorical question - i'd like to figure this out.

Ugh ugh ugh. This thread seems to be full of hate, not anger at anti-feminism and street-harrassing jocks but a whole lotta hate.

No hate here Tashie just a sorry realization that something must be going wrong in the way North Indian men are being brought up so that they end up becoming animals with no respect for another human being.

The Chicken-Shikan eating, vaddi-gaddi driving, bhangra rap listening thugs are a unique product of this culture.

Whats the ethnic breakdown of the population in Delhi? Whats the percentage of Punjabis in Delhi?

After further inspection its become unacceptable to say "But the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting" but acceptable to say "Punjabi men in NYC, the US, the UK, India, Everywhere are downright disgusting."

Eh.

I've heard it all before. I had an Indian professor say to me that all Punjabi's are wife-beating, alcoholics, brutish, uncouth, culturally hegemonic, quasi-imperialist soundrels with Persian blood who denigrate an otherwise non-violent Indian culture. Eh.

So, whats a Punjabi man to do? Fight it? Eh. How? Find a good bird, raise good kids and squash the bravado, defeat the stereotype? Eh. That's so long run and uncool; cool is starting a non-profit, dot org, acronym-laden, to "raise awareness" and breed a generation of "activists."

So, again, the dirty laundry is out there, in all its glory. I mean, it's personal experience right? It's not like we're talking about flying pink unicorns. So now what? Where does the discussion go from here? The "I'm-not-one-of-them" back and forth isn't helpful. A lot of readers probably nodded their heads in affirmation, but now what? That's why I 'eh'- typecast discussions are charged, yet don't move forward in proportion to that charge. I guess that's why Hollaback has this disclaimer. Now, some unsuspecting visitor, somewhere in North Dakota, who only knows of one brown, who he happens to be dating, who happens to be Punjabi, will ask his amore, "Daaaahling, are all Punjabi's X, Y, Z." The lass, being a "loud talking" firecracker, slaps him silly. Presto. Typecast signed, sealed and confirmed. But where's the discussion? It's still waddling in 'eh'.

Some may say, "Oh NVM, I didn't mean you" or "I didn't mean for you to take offense" but honestly, I don't take offense. I don't take offense to much anyhow. Except if you diss my girl. Then I'll pound your visage with a patriarchal Punjabi knuckle massage comparable to any Dharmendra dishoom-dishoom, sumja? =)

Sincerely,

No von "unique product of the ultra-macho jat-punjabi-gujjar mindset"... "indulge[r] in the most aggressive, loutish behavior you can imagine"... "paws on every girl on the floor"..."unnecessar[ily] flauting [my] money"...from the "ultra-macho-gold-chain-wearing-bhangra-rap-listening Punjabi area" Mises

P.S. We need some SpoorLam.

So, whats a Punjabi man to do? Fight it? Eh. How? Find a good bird, raise good kids and squash the bravado, defeat the stereotype? Eh. That's so long run and uncool; cool is starting a non-profit, dot org, acronym-laden, to "raise awareness" and breed a generation of "activists."

Just try to instil respect for women in your cousins, your younger brothers. If you see them behaving like a bunch of sex-crazy louts take them to task.
As they say , baby steps...

Dawg, you have a career in diplomacy.

Lets play a game where we take common stereotypes about people who don't like and pretend like we're making some kind of grand sociological statement!

This is absolute bullshit at this point. Absolute bullshit. The fact Punjabi culture is reduced to "unique product of the ultra-macho jat-punjabi-gujjar mindset"... "indulge[r] in the most aggressive, loutish behavior you can imagine"... "paws on every girl on the floor"..."unnecessar[ily] flauting [my] money"...from the "ultra-macho-gold-chain-wearing-bhangra-rap-listening Punjabi area" is utter stupidity masquerading as good natured advice.

Why don't people actually think of real punjabi people they know who act like this demented stereotype.

Sahej,

Those quotes were from DesiDawg. I was using them in jest.

Now that I've pre-empted a possible powerpunchfest between two Punjabi's, back to our regularly scheduled cultural bashing mired with frankness. Frankness, ahh, another Punjabi trait.

No Von,

(takes of his ultra macho gold chain and turns down his loud bhangra-rap music)

I know man, I ain't no stupid Pindu

takes of his ultra macho gold chain and turns down his loud bhangra-rap music

baby steps man.

Ok, I put my money back in my pockets, what now? What's step 2 towards reformation? How many steps are there? My hot-bloodedness has a limit of 15.

JOAT,
Bravo. for saying something everyone knows but wont admit for the fear of being politically incorrect.
In situations like this, its better to be a racist than raped/murdered.
Stereotyping is bad, but not all stereotypes are completely untrue.
I guess its a cultural thing- phrases like 'junk in trunk', 'badonkadonk', 'lady lumps' all come from black 'artists'. Black men(in general) have a very agressive way of propositioning women. Therein they cross boundaries that they know not of.

Desidawg,

What's wrong with my screen name its the name I've always used here. Its not nice to post stats without links. Show me some real evidence that Punjabis have the highest number of eve teasing /street harassment.

Delhi is not in Punjab nor is it all Punjabi. Many people here are blaming the Punjabi culture eve teasing /street harassment/mistreatment of women, etc. If this was the case then Punjab would have the worst rates in eve teasing /street harassment/mistreatment of women, however, none of the statistics I’ve seen show this.

And we continue to spiral downward, faster than you can say callipygian...

baby steps man.

Ok, I put my money back in my pockets, what now? What's step 2 towards reformation? How many steps are there? My hot-bloodedness has a limit of 15.

My guess is the next step has to have something to do with cutting down on aloo parantas and butter; but maybe we should check with Desidawg

My guess is the next step has to have something to do with cutting down on aloo parantas and butter; but maybe we should check with Desidawg

Word.

I just cancelled the crate of Chivas Regal I ordered. I'm buying Andrea Dworkin's book right now. Detox, detox...

I just cancelled the crate of Chivas Regal I ordered. I'm buying Andrea Dworkin's book right now. Detox, detox...

Holy shit my head's spinning, I don't think I can take it! Where is my legendary Punjabi stubborness when I need it?? Must....have......glass of....scotch...put it on my head

I haven't read all the comments so forgive me if this has already been written...but I really suggest to everyone, males and females, to get to your nearest Krav Maga training center and take a few classes. This is NOT karate or tae-kwon do..this is kick your ass-street defense created by Israelis. Please check it out..there is a training center in several states..definitley one in Cali (several), New York City and Long Island, Boston, D.C. I urge you guys to look into it.

Mitali Perkins said “Somebody may have already pointed this out in the tome of comments, but some of our Muslim sisters argue that the niqab liberates them from worrying about this kind of abuse.”

Even if women covered themselves from head to toe… I don’t think it’ll stop abuse from jerks.

I’m not muslim but been covering myself with a big scarf due to protecting/hiding wounds from an recent accident. Let me tell you… hiding most of your face doesn’t protect you from lewd comments from men. I’ve been told by some disgusting men how they would like to tie me up with my scarf and do blah, blah… how they wanna take it off, and do blah, blah.. I even had a guy touch my scarf and say “ooh that feels nice” while I was waiting in line at the post office! I turned around and said WTF dont f'n touch me. The guy looked shocked like he didn't expect someone like me to say anyhting back and he was like "all said was your scarfs nice." Some jerks don't get that 'look but don't' touch concept.

It is cultural thing. One more interesting thing I have seen is the unnecessary flauting of money that goes on especially among the Punjabis. It is so in your face kind of brash that it is nauseating.

I am a punjabi and that is not a punjabi culture. That is a Delhi culture...to showoff. Everybody does it in Delhi, whether they are Punjabis, UPites, Biharis etc.

In Bombay it is a different culture. People are so busy they don't have time to ponder on what other people think of them. Punjabis don't flaunt their money. In Bombay no one has time to do that and no one cares.

I think I have seen worse domestic violence in Bihar. The men there are so violent and the whole state is not really safe. How come no one reports the stats for abuse in Bihar? A girl will get assaulted so quickly there, it is sad. I think not many report it in Bihar because the police is as corrupt as the civilians. You are better off remaining in your home in the evenings, not going out without someone with you etc.

#260

I can second JOAT on this. There is a HUGE difference in BEHAVIOR between black/hispanic men and white in the way they relate to me. I know it's not PC to say, and people don't want to hear it but it's true. With me, I know it's because of the brown skin. I don't think they're necessarily the same way with white women, but it's like they see the brown skin and think it gives them an "in".

And strangely I've had the opposite experience, in NYC and elsewhere. I have unfortunately experienced lewd vulgar street-attention from all types of men, regardless of status, color, or national origin.

As for whether the approach is the same with white women, given that I Code White a fair percentage of the time, I'll tell you that the approach is equally heinous.

It amazes me the ability men have to exceed their capacity for boorishness and utter contempt for women. Most men are sensible human beings I know, but at times like these and with the hindsight of history, I cannot but be ashamed.

Holy Crap! Leave JoAT alone! Geez people, I think you just WANT to read into things so you can get a high off of posting a really dramatic post. Give me a break. Are we really going to go through this many comments on the technicalities of one of her sentences? You know what she meant but you WANT to keep reading into it to make it a bigger deal. I completely agree with her.

I grew up in the Bay Area where cultures/backgrounds were very mixed together (a far cry from where I live now). So I would never say that all people of one culture are x or y. But if you go by your personal experiences, you find that in some cases certain ethnicities are always the ones performing a certain action - in this case, harassing you. I'm Punjabi, I married an amazing Punjabi man, yet I will admit that out of all Indians, I have been harassed by Punjabis the most. Sometimes it's funny (oye billo! from across the street), other times it's nasty (invading my space at a party), but, yes they're usually Punjabi. A lot of people in this culture are messed up, but just as many are not. Hell, my husband is the anti-punjabi if I compare him to the guys I just mentioned. But why can't a woman speak freely about her personal experiences without everyone else jumping to the conclusion that she's bitchslapping an entire race/culture?

Again, stop reading into things that aren't there and don't judge people who are speaking about their own personal experiencs.

A question to all the SM ladies... When you are a guy at a cafe or at a bar....and you see a girl... what would be an UNdisrespectful way of approaching her? because disrespecting someone, is never the objective...

Don't ever mention body parts. And don't take it personally if we're defensive. This can often be the result of things like the origial post that most of us deal with on a daily basis. It's hard for us (maybe just me?) sometimes to tell the good ones from the not-so-good.

Heres my question though. What good does it do to point out the race of the men who harrass you?

I know that black men are more likely to go in and approach a woman, and this can be irritating if you just want to go from point A to point B. But I find it hard to believe that most of these men are regularly crossing the line from showing interest to harrassment. I avoid the attention not because I feel unsafe, but because I am not interested in anyone who tries to approach me.

I'm a woman of African descent and have experienced the same type of crass, beligerant harrassment from lowlife males of African descent - black. Recently, two pulled up beside me in traffic and proceeded to twirl their toungues at me in a disgusting sexual way. When you tell them to leave you alone they come from the angle of "You think you're too good"...I've often wondered if boys like this felt that this way of treating women is part of their racial identity as, is this part of being Black to them? I've been harrassed by Hispanic boys, but the way some boys of African/Black ancestry do this in unmatched as far as how disgusting they can be with someone they do not know and know nothing about.

I'm not anti-African/Black male as this is whom I've dated in my life, for the most part, but this is just something I've noticed.

It's like they look for women at their worst to hopefully make them feel so bad about themselves so to give them what they want, or allow their inner demons to manifest themselves fully. This is the the reason why if I'm among the company of men of African/black descent who have certain mannerisms or speech patterns, I get away as soon as possible.

Perhaps that's stereotyping, but oh well!

WTF is right.

Heres my question though. What good does it do to point out the race of the men who harrass you?

Absolutely none. I'm not even sure why it came up in my head for me to write that. In hindsight had I realized it would cause such melee I would never have written that.

I had a discussion with someone a few days ago about this issue and I got fired up about it. A co-worker who just moved here from Michigan and I were walking down the street and these two guys came up to us and were so lewd it took me a few minutes to even register what they were saying. When we stared walking away one of them grabbed her hand and it filled me with such rage. This happens all the time. My coworker says "I cant believe I didn't experience this in Michigan and I get this everday, what is wrong with these guys and why the hell is it always Black and Hispanic men?" We ended up having a long dragged out discussion about this at work with another girl who is South American who agreed but interestingly she also said she actually enjoyes the attention. It sort of freaked me out and left a bad taste in my mouth.

Incidentally it also turned out to be the day NPR aired the Hollaback segment and we all listened to it. I guess it stuck with me. I was looking thru some stats on the web and was disappointed to find out that NYC doesn't really have anything, there is nothing out there to address this issue in general. I've written about this in the past myself. I did however unfortunately find opinions out there that reflected my experience.

My intention was never to start a flame war which I'm terribly sorry for starting.

Right after it happens, I hate myself for not having a better reaction. Then I go home and fantasize about humiliating them in the worst possible ways.

I envisioned throwing a grenade into their jeep, but when I calmed down the grenade turned into a carton of eggs. I'm lucky that I don't tote a gun as some of my friends do - I'd kill someone.

Don't ever mention body parts. And don't take it personally if we're defensive. This can often be the result of things like the origial post that most of us deal with on a daily basis. It's hard for us (maybe just me?) sometimes to tell the good ones from the not-so-good.

Tamasha, you've got the most beautiful, sparkling, soulful eyes. You completely blow me away every time I see you.

it's more socioeconomic class than race - i've never seen affluent black/hispanic males act in lewd or offensive ways to women on the streets; the fact that in NYC, the poor/working class are disproportionately black/hispanic would explain some of the female posters' experiences in NYC

the above, however, doesn't follow for teenagers or college (particularly frat) boys who are usually lewd/offensive regardless of class or race

what is wrong with these guys and why the hell is it always Black and Hispanic men?

I hate to be cliche, but I think it has to do with the sexual legacy left by colonism and slavery here in the US. In my opinion, the problem is manifested by media influences. We are seeing the fruits of the initial aggressors that began this montage of cultural and ethnic blends manifest themselves. Modern American society hails from a grossly chauvenistic past, the minorities bore the brunt of this. This nastiness is embedded in our psyches, which is why for many women this type of behavior is embraced.

A while I go I listed to a local syndicate of a nationally known African-American radio show. They were having a discussion on how men are being jailed for 'coming on to' or 'complimenting' women. They made light of it, "So, if I holla at you and tell you that you have a nice ass I deserve to go to jail?", one of the disc jockeys asked. However I am sure that this is due to more degrading and snide remarks being made.

it's more socioeconomic class than race

I don't know about that. It all depends on who can get away with it; who has nothing to loose if this behavior is brought to light. The last boys that harrassed me where by no means poor. They were well groomed and I noticed fraternity and collegiate embellishements on the pratically new luxury vehicle they were riding in.

Perhaps they hailed from low socioeconomic status, but surely that's not where they are now. They should know better.

it's more socioeconomic class than race - i've never seen affluent black/hispanic males act in lewd or offensive ways to women on the streets; the fact that in NYC, the poor/working class are disproportionately black/hispanic would explain some of the female posters' experiences in NYC

Also, Anna started this entire thread by describing being violently grabbed (on one ocassion) and called a slut by a bunch of white frat boys (on another), neither poor nor minority.

I know the neighborhood. I remember being extra vigilant while walking two female friends home from a salsa club there, and wading through pools of drunken white guys. My entire body language changed - I was up on the balls of my feet, my hands were out of my pockets, and I was constantly scanning around me. This wasn't some macho bullshit thing, it was basic situational awareness.

This is not my opinion, just a funny SNL skit.

317 · Sonia Kaur on October 7, 2006 11:25 AM · Direct link

But why can't a woman speak freely about her personal experiences...

Bingo! Thank you. Apparently, she can't.

Holy Crap! Leave JoAT alone! Geez people, I think you just WANT to read into things so you can get a high off of posting a really dramatic post. Give me a break. Are we really going to go through this many comments on the technicalities of one of her sentences? You know what she meant but you WANT to keep reading into it to make it a bigger deal. I completely agree with her.

Yeah I know what she meant. Let me vent about something bad that happened and if its racist, thats an afterthought.

Men with nothing to lose who feel threatened and demeaned are demeaning other people. Is that so hard to figure out?

You could let this comment go; but its jarring on SepiaMutiny, seeing as we maybe artificially spend a lot of time being nice, polite, and empathetic. In the real world, a whole lot of stuff goes on and I am sure no one has an hour discussion about it. This is a blog where people endlessly hash over things.

And the other thing is; you're leaving Punjabi men out in the cold by letting the stereotypes go. Thats just a simple fact of the matter. Like I said, no one has a sign over their head saying "I'm not that kind of brown man"

Men with nothing to lose who feel threatened and demeaned are demeaning other people

And these men just happen to be overwhelmingly black and hispanic. That's all she's pointing out.

People, can we move on from the rehashing of what JoAT said? Share your own personal experiences any way you want, just don't make gross generalizations about groups and don't keep going back to the original issue of what she may or may not have meant. Every time I feel like the thread has moved on, somebody new comes on line and we return to the same point.

p.s. I don't know how many times I have to say sharing your own experiences is fine but gross generalizations or racist statements are not. I've said that each and every time I've explained my objection, and people still keep saying "what's wrong with sharing my personal experience". Nothing at all.

And these men just happen to be overwhelmingly black and hispanic. That's all she's pointing out.

Yeah. So then the other point, since this is a forum that also includes desi men is, the flipside is when a man of color does soething disgusting, its often turned into a racial stigma. And then you add in the junk being said about Punjabi people. So thats what I and other people would object to, in dramatic and florid language. No where have I seen anyone lay into JOAT, and certainly I haven't.

I have to say sharing your own experiences is fine but gross generalizations or racist statements are not

The problem is that she was doing just that, sharing her personal experiences, and is being judged for it. If that's her experience, that's her experience. How can anyone say it isn't.

Sahej & Non von Mises,

I was walking down a street in Southhall 2 years ago with a friend and his wife. They had been married the previous month and she was still wearing the "chura"-red bangles from the marriage and she wasn't skimpily dressed-she was in a salwar kameez. The cat calls and comments were so loud and offensive that we had to cross the street. And this happened when there were two guys with her-I dread what could happen to a single woman on those streets.

For the record, I've been to Southall many, many times and not once have I seen this kind of behaviour myself. Not by Sikh guys -- and again for the record, most Punjabis in Britain are Sikh, although there is a sizeable minority of Hindu Punjabis too -- and as Sahej alluded, there may be some cultural differences between the two groups, even though most 2nd-Gen Sikhs in the UK are non-Keshdhari. I've certainly never seen Sikh guys behave like that towards Punjabi women in that area, although there is definitely a long track record of Pakistani Muslim guys in the Southall area harassing Sikh women. Given the cultural developments within the desi population in the UK during the past 35 years, hassling a Sikh woman (or any desi woman who is on good terms with some Sikhs) is liable to get you beaten up by a bunch of her "brothers", as I mentioned before.

During the summer months, it is common for young local guys with nice cars to drive up and down Southall's main streets with their in-car stereos playing bhangra loudly; but again, I've never heard of them hassling women passing by. Hell, my mother loves going shopping in Southall because she feels the locals are always so polite and respectful to her and my father. Hardly a hotbed of intimidation and harassment.

However, I guess we should give DesiDawg the benefit of the doubt again and take him at his word, although I think it could have been a one-off incident or possibly a case of mistaken identity, given the tendency of some local Pakistanis to harass Indian women there, as I mentioned above.

The points made by Gal Sun and Been_there_done_that are very relevant, ie:

Delhi is not in Punjab nor is it all Punjabi. Many people here are blaming the Punjabi culture eve teasing /street harassment/mistreatment of women, etc. If this was the case then Punjab would have the worst rates in eve teasing /street harassment/mistreatment of women, however, none of the statistics I’ve seen show this.

****************************************

Now can everyone just focus on the main issue, which is racist sexual harassment of South Asian women by non-desi men. Let's try to avoid yet another threadjacking where people use this as an excuse for yet more internecine anti-Punjabi/anti-Sikh finger-pointing; this is becoming a frequent occurance on Sepia Mutiny, for some reason.

This problem requires unity and focus, amongst South Asians of all backgrounds. Non-desi American guys who behave in such an atrocious way towards desi women will not give a damn if their "target" is Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali, Mallu, Tamil or anything else.

Sorry dawg .. I was out of the thread all afternoon/evening yesterday and just read through it all this morning and commented =)

And ps, why does it matter who you date? Date Captain John McJohnson III; its be much more reassuring to not perpetuate stereotypes about men of color

The problem is that she was doing just that, sharing her personal experiences, and is being judged for it. If that's her experience, that's her experience. How can anyone say it isn't.

What I saw was people bringing out there reaction to what the initial comment was, in some cases explaining why they disagree with the initial statement or why their reaction to it was what it was. I'm not seeing a lot of judging. I did not see many people say; JOAT you have not experienced this, you are lying.

BTW, I am not focusing on JOAT anymore, hopefully this is more about the sentiment

Punjabi are fun-loving, kind and very generous people.

Go to punjab...people (strangers) call you into their homes and give you very RICH lassi and rotis swimming in Ghee. My Gujju friend took a road trip from Bombay to Kullu Manali. Only in punjab he got the most warm hospitality and free, rich food. People are so kind there...it is infectious.

In Punjab, during festivals, people give out free food. You can take 1, 2, 100...they don't ask. They will give you more. If it finishes, they will go and get more (and they won't charge you or ask you to pay!)

In Gujju homes, from what I have heard, if you go visit them, people say "oh I hope you have eaten and come". I have seen that only in some gujju people, not all. I will NOT generalize gujju people because of that.

Punjabis are usually the life of the party. My friend has been attending a new years party here and she said last year was the most fun because Punjabis attended too. You can't have an indian party without a Punjabi song...try it!!!!

That my dear punjabi-haters IS PUNJABI CULTURE!!!!

"...I noticed fraternity and collegiate embellishements."

I don't think we are disagreeing - I agree that regardless of class/race young men, particulary the frat boy type, can be lewd or offensive - part of this is immaturity, alcohol plays more than a minor role and a lot of it is outgrown w/ age (not that that fact makes it any more acceptable as you are experiencing it).

I generally don't think men of a certain level of affluence act in the ways complained. I don't think that they are necessarily better men, I just think that affluent men generally have a lot more to lose (reputation, the attention of affluent women, etc.) and generally tend to disassociate themselves from behaviors of the working class. I.e., I think affluent men who are assholes are usually assholes in entirely different ways.

That being said, the usual disclaimers apply - no, not all working class men are jerks, I would never say that, and yes, sometimes affluent men are as overtly asshole-ish as their working class brothers can be.

Alot of nonsense on this board. You Indian's think your so rich and so "proper" because a few Indian's out of a billion of you made it to the promised land! Well guess what? You go to India and there is just as many Indian jag off's as there are black's and hispanic's. In fact since there are a billion Indian's in the world I bet there are more dirty, ill-minded Indian's in the world as there are a total number of Blacks in the world, good and bad.

Who the hell do you people think you are? I know! You think your the world model for the perfect race. Well last time I checked the "perfect race" doesnt have to struggle to find it's way out of the 3rd world label.

Have any of you seen "Born into brothel's" ?

If you have then, who do those Indian women in that documentary remind you of? DING DING DING! Your right, they are the equvalent of the poor black woman in America. Dont forget where you come from! You come from a country with alot of poverty and alot of scum and your parents left that place in a hurry.

Then come's the 2nd generation, with their "We are just like white people" attitude and look down upon people like black's and wonder why they are so dirty! Well if your ancestor's were shitted on for the last 400 hundred year's then you would be "dirty" also. Think about it!! Blacks struggled for hundred's of years in this country and their struggle made it easy for your brown asses to become doctor's and what ever else in this country and how do Indian's show respect for that? They just look down on them like every other elitst.

ShalloThinker - Buy it - Read it - Learn it

ajk - a lot of frat boys I know drive far more expensive cars than I do, and have grown up with far more privilege.

Ennis,

My comments above were that regardless or race or class, young men (particularly frat boy types)display the behavior being complained of regardless of race or class. That being said, there is a class distinction in behavior outside of the young male group.

sorry, you know how the above sentence should read...

Now can everyone just focus on the main issue, which is racist sexual harassment of South Asian women by non-desi men.

This affects all women, both intra- and inter-racially. Harassment is just that, no matter who does it or experiences it. I didn't post to feed into any racist generalizations, but to agree, as a woman of African descent, that I have noticed the same thing. I'm not implying that it's global or widespread, but that I've experienced this more than my fair share of times living on the east coast (NC).

I generally don't think men of a certain level of affluence act in the ways complained. I don't think that they are necessarily better men, I just think that affluent men generally have a lot more to lose (reputation, the attention of affluent women, etc.) and generally tend to disassociate themselves from behaviors of the working class. I.e., I think affluent men who are assholes are usually assholes in entirely different ways.

I agree. Affluent men have different arenas to be a-holes in. A top notch doctor/attorney can be just as skeevy, if not worse, but they'll do it in different circles. Skeeviness transcends class/race/etc. You'll just see it expressed in different ways based on various factors. But, no matter what background a man is from, if he's been raised right, JoAT, Anna, and a lot of other women wouldn't have to deal with this crap.

That being said, there is a class distinction in behavior outside of the young male group.

No there isn't. Doctors molest patients. Investment bankers grope and leer at secretaries and colleagues. Presidents take advantage of interns; congressmen take advantage of pages. These attempts to somehow rank the behavior of different cultures, ethnicities and class groups within one society that they all together inhabit, are spurious and unproductive. JOAT reported that when going around NYC she is harassed by Black and Latino men. Tamasha reports that when going around NYC she is harassed by men of all ethnicities. DesiDancer reports that when living in NYC she was harassed by men of all ethnicities. Anna's original story that launched this conversation features disgusting behavior by men of several ethnicities. White fratboys get drunk and shout rude things at women and think they can get away with pawing and groping. Black fratboys do the same thing. Mixed groups of men do the same thing too. It's well known that the majority of rapes are committed by people the victim knows or is related to. Women get raped all over the country in every ethnic community. Ergo, there are rapists all over the country in every ethnic community. Moreover, the "culture" of one community influences that of every other, and vice versa. So, black rappers disrespect black video hoes? Well, white owner record companies contract for that kind of music. Is white culture's tendency to exploit other cultures to blame? Or is it black culture's tendency to disrespect women? Chicken or egg? It's neither, not least because there is nothing hotwired into a white man that forces him to exploit, and nothing hotwired into a black man that forces him to harass. The whole argument is riven with fallacies.

So what are we going to do? Go into endless analysis of the relative propensity to harass, disrespect and harm women on the part of men of different class, ethnic, regional or religious backgrounds? Or take a fucking stand against this behavior wherever and whenever it occurs?

As the rapper said, "It ain't where you from, it's where you at." Handle your own business before you start tarring broad categories of people with your brush. Examine yourself first. Hold yourself to a high standard and live by it. Help the people around you to live by a high standard too. Lead by example. Do some good.

Peace

^^^IAWTC. Well said.

So what are we going to do? Go into endless analysis of the relative propensity to harass, disrespect and harm women on the part of men of different class, ethnic, regional or religious backgrounds? Or take a fucking stand against this behavior wherever and whenever it occurs?

Amen!

been_there_seen_that:

What you said in #339 is correct...but there is a big cultural and personality difference between people living in Punjab (especially rural Punjab where the values you described are the most pronounced) and 2nd gen kids living in desi areas like Queens and Vancouver, where a strange hybrid of some of the worst aspects of both Western (specifically hip-hop) and Indian cultural traits has emerged, without many of the good points of either. I simply can't understand why desi kids in Vancouver, for example, with comfortable suburban homes, good schools, intact families, lots of opportunities, should be so attracted to thuggishness and gangsterism. I know it's 'cool' and all, but where does it leave you once you get past your 20s? Southall, as Jai described, has retained some of the good traits of 1st gen culture even among the 2nd/3rd gen, especially basic respect for people, but I have seen desi boys totally out of control in NY/NJ area here in America on many occasions. Pure badtameezi...and they couldn't care less if you are twice or even thrice their age, whether you're a man or woman, whatever...

"The indigenous culture of the south is more intact than that of the north which provides for solid cultural grounding. North Indians have defintely lost their moorings and do not have a dominant, forecful culture like the so-called ABCD's do to tether themselves to."

From my experience I'd say it's quite the opposite. Regional indian cinema is no way as comparitively 'cool' as bollywood is, ditto for carnatic music vs. bhangra... It is no surprise that south indians are usually the first to lose their 'cultural identity'....

ask jay chandrasekhar or m.night shamayalan if they know any tamil...

actually in my experience sri lankan tamils are usually more into south indian culture than south indians are..

Siddhartha, VERY good points. THAT'S why I read this blog!

Siddharta,

No one could logically derive from what I wrote that I was saying that only poor/working class men sexually harrass or intimidate women. Thank you, but I do realize that sexual predators come from various ethnicities and classes. If you had read my comments carefully, you would have understood that.

I was referring very specifically to the type of behavior being complained of - sexual harasment which works not just to intimidate women, but to also embarass them in a very public fashion - on the street, usually w/ a crowd of other men and people present. It is the public nature of the behavior that I was commenting about. This type of very public behavior is generally class-based and there are pretty good reasons for it. I was simply adding my observation in response to many of the other observations above.

That being said, I have said that very young frat-boy type men, usually engage in this type of behavior, regardless of race or class. This will be the 3rd time I am saying this.

I am not sure what your rant about rapists have to do with my comment. For the record, yes, I acknowledge that men of all races and classes commit rape. I, however, was not talking about rape.

And no, I didn't appreciate the undeserved preaching. Save it, please.

a strange hybrid of some of the worst aspects of both Western (specifically hip-hop) and Indian cultural traits has emerged, without many of the good points of either. I simply can't understand why desi kids in Vancouver, for example, with comfortable suburban homes, good schools, intact families, lots of opportunities, should be so attracted to thuggishness and gangsterism.

I'm gonna need you to learn more about what hip-hop is before you equate an entire sub-culture with gangsterism.

Oneup, I did say "without many of the GOOD POINTS OF EITHER".

I had 3 staff members converge on my location asking the girls if it was ok, who I was, whether I was harassing them, etc.. etc.. In a society that protects women this much, and in general discourages all forms of male-female interaction, it's hard for me to understand the phenom of eve-teasing as it's called. Not that I deny it or anything. Just as I believe a white person can never understand a minorities position/experiences in the US. A male can never understand a female's experiences either.

HMF -

I think I can explain it to you, having been on the receiving end of sexual harrassement in India at least, oh, 500 times, though I think the number is closer to 1,000, but allow me to be generous.

The majority of it takes place in North India. This is acknowledged by Indians themselves.

You were in Bangaluru, which is South.

However, just the fact that more than one staff arrived on the scene to confirm that all was OK, indicates to me that they have a history of guys talking to girls in not OK ways, and now they have taken measures to prevent it. In fact, I read this very thing about Bangaluru just recently in the news. They are a city that is cracking down and the rest of India would do well to follow suit.

It is precisely because there is so much restriction between casual male/female dealings in India that this kind of behaviour takes place. Now, one may ask, in cultures which aren't so restrictive, why does it then take place. Good question and one which I am trying to sort out myself.

I think it might have something to do with a type of male bonding which escalates testestorone levels and testosterone fueled behaviour. I say this because of the reference to;

a. Frat boys
b. Black men
c. Hispanic men
d. Construction workers

Regarding JOAT's comments; It was obvious to me that she was saying the black and hispanic men who are harrassing women are disgusting because of their behaviour. I never once assumed she thought they were disgusting because they were black and hispanic, and I'm surprised to see some took it that way. To me her point was obvious.

And I think a case might be made that in their communities, cat-calling is a successful way of picking up women. I have seen this ALOT amongst my black and hispanic male friends - the ones who lack refinement in their dealings with women. And the women who respond positively to them are themselves also lacking in refinement. The ones who are more refined do not engage in such behaviour.

By "refined" I mean, more well-mannered, cultured, intellectual, etc...

This includes white Frat boys too. They are not exactly what I would refer to as "refined individuals" by any means. And I am not trying to stereotype all Frat boys or black and hispanic men. I am referring specificially to the ones who engage in this sort of behaviour. Which, according to what I'm reading here, seems to be alot.

Anyway, amongst some people, this hootin and hollerin is considered a perfectly legitimate way to pick up members of the opposite gender. I've seen some women do it also.

And no, I didn't appreciate the undeserved preaching. Save it, please.

I most certainly am not going to save it. I was responding to your comment about class, but I was also responding to the entirety of this thread so far. Perhaps I should have made that clear. Moreover, I did read your comments carefully, as well as all the other comments on this thread. Your distinction between hooting and hollering on the one hand, and other forms of aggression against women on the other hand, is a false distinction. The dignity of women is impinged upon in many ways in this society. Hooting and hollering is just one way. For the record, I contest your claim that hooting and hollering is a particularly lower-class activity. But even if it were, we need to look at the entire spectrum of how men intimidate and disrespect women in our society. And we most closely need to look at the way we and people around us behave, because that is where we have the most power to make an immediate change.

If you think that's preaching, so be it. Personally, I'd rather listen to a good sermon than to half-baked pseudo-sociology that distracts from the real issues.

You were in Bangaluru, which is South

Kind of cool how even without officially changing its name, the desi version of 'Bangalore' is catching on...

Perhaps this is a cultural gap? A black man approaches a Desi woman as he would a black woman, assuming common pigmentation means common cultural attitude. Unaware that Desis belong to the pickle-up-the-ass genus of Victorian colonial culture.

Ikram, you could have a point there. I've seen black men assume some Indian women to be of West Indian cultural origin, which tends to be way less conservative than India's culture, regarding sexuality and male/female relationships. Or, they assume (East) Indian culture is similar in that regard to West Indian culture.

Amitabh:

What you said in #339 is correct...but there is a big cultural and personality difference between people living in Punjab (especially rural Punjab where the values you described are the most pronounced) and 2nd gen kids living in desi areas like Queens and Vancouver, where a strange hybrid of some of the worst aspects of both Western (specifically hip-hop) and Indian cultural traits has emerged, without many of the good points of either. I simply can't understand why desi kids in Vancouver, for example, with comfortable suburban homes, good schools, intact families, lots of opportunities, should be so attracted to thuggishness and gangsterism. I know it's 'cool' and all, but where does it leave you once you get past your 20s? Southall, as Jai described, has retained some of the good traits of 1st gen culture even among the 2nd/3rd gen, especially basic respect for people, but I have seen desi boys totally out of control in NY/NJ area here in America on many occasions. Pure badtameezi...and they couldn't care less if you are twice or even thrice their age, whether you're a man or woman, whatever...

I hear you and I have seen that too. I have seen similar types of kids in India too...roaming on the streets of Bombay and Delhi. Either they are from filthy rich families (in which case they drive huge cars, hit people, kill people, rape girlfriends, take drugs and get away with it) or they are from extremely poor backgrounds (they have scarfs tied around their necks, they walk in groups, harass passerbys, join gangs, are harassed by police and they spell trouble too).

In America, if you visit desi areas like Devon, Jackson heights etc. you see desi punk kids. Similar in nature to the ones seen in India. But since there are a minority if you look at the surroundings, they STAND OUT like a sore thumb.

They look out of place. You can immediatly pick them out.

They hang out in desi places like that because that is where they feel at home. If they go do their cat-calls in other places, the white and africans will make them pay. They are scared to do it to anyone other than indians.

That is why when you go to Jackson heights, you see this kids being a menace. They are acting out. They don't want to study. They don't want to blog. They don't want to read Sepia mutiny. They either grow up with trouble makers and become one themselves OR their parents are too busy to look after them and notice their bad ways OR they are angry about something that happened to them in life (eg death in family, abuse etc.) and take to drugs and harassing others to make themselves feel better.

They can't play their loud indian music anywhere else except desi areas. That is where they will get noticed...among their own people. These types of kids are everywhere (india and abroad) and they are acting out. They find the desi area a safe heaven to act out and hence you see them there.

For the record, I contest your claim that hooting and hollering is a particularly lower-class activity

Siddhartha - here I disagree with you. I'm not saying that people who earn more money respect women more, nor that all lower class men engage in catcalling, nor that only working class men ever hoot or holler.

However, within the USA hooting and hollering as a practice clearly follows certain social contours. Not only that, but you can find some men within these groups openly defending it as a legitimate.

I do see some clear empirical regularities here that correlate highly with various subcultures.

Sonia:

Holy Crap! Leave JoAT alone! Geez people, I think you just WANT to read into things so you can get a high off of posting a really dramatic post. Give me a break. Are we really going to go through this...

Firstly: I am sure that JoAT is perfectly capable of defending herself! Second: I disagree with you that people just WANT to read meanings into JoAT's words. The subtext to several of the postings that have taken JoAT to task is that her point of view was shoddily expressed; posts #214 and #221 (especially the latter) being examples of said subtext. Look... I sympathise with JoAT in regard to the following:

...path of political correctness. It's past 5 on a Friday and I'm tired.

Heaven knows I haven't been in peak form at 5:00 p.m. on some Fridays. However, tiredness at 5:00 p.m. on Friday cannot be a valid excuse for shoddy expression among people who frequently post on a blog that is gaining in influence the way SM is. You all seem like dedicated professionals, and would not tolerate in your professional lives the sort of unrigorous thinking that JOaT's post #23 showcases; so why should you tolerate it on SM, which is clearly such a labour of love to all of you on this board ?

On a more personal note: I used to shy away from the desis around me when I was a postdoc in the U.S. Half of them were casually and unthinkingly racist in their attitudes, while the other half seemed like - for the want of a pithier term - crypto-fascists. Not the support-the-Pentagon type of crypto-fascists -desis are more sophisticated than that :) - but, rather, the Hurray-for-Grover-Norquist type of crypto-fascists. Then, I discovered SM; and I realised how blinkered my understanding of desis in the U.S. had been. Imagine, however, how things would've gone if my introduction to SM had happened through JoAT's and DesiDawg's posts today...

This, I hope, illustrates what I mean by saying that those who post frequently on SM have, by their excellence, created the need to be responsible. So, JoAT - and DesiDawg -more rigour please!

For the record, I contest your claim that hooting and hollering is a particularly lower-class activity

Siddhartha - here I disagree with you. I'm not saying that people who earn more money respect women more, nor that all lower class men engage in catcalling, nor that only working class men ever hoot or holler.

However, within the USA hooting and hollering as a practice clearly follows certain social contours. Not only that, but you can find some men within these groups openly defending it as a legitimate.

I do see some clear empirical regularities here that correlate highly with various subcultures.

Well....... like I said above, some people (women and men both) consider it a legitimate way to "hook up". So for them, the behaviour would not be considered "low class".

Culture clash.

I do see some clear empirical regularities here that correlate highly with various subcultures.

Perhaps, and it might be an entertaining academic exercise to test the hypothesis. But that's not the point here, is it? The point here is to talk about incidents that the victim/recipient/target finds to be threatening. If a man hoots and hollers at a woman, and she hoots and hollers back, and doesn't feel threatened, well, maybe that's cultural or economic or racial or regional or age-based or lord knows what, but the key point is that no threat was felt -- and perhaps none was intended.

But in this thread we are talking about behavior that the recipient/victim/target finds to be offensive, threatening, and/or reducing of her dignity. Let's focus on reducing the incidence of threatening encounters, rather than go off on sociological sidetracks that end up being about other topics.

A co-worker who just moved here from Michigan and I were walking down the street and these two guys came up to us and were so lewd it took me a few minutes to even register what they were saying. When we stared walking away one of them grabbed her hand and it filled me with such rage. This happens all the time. My coworker says "I cant believe I didn't experience this in Michigan and I get this everday, what is wrong with these guys and why the hell is it always Black and Hispanic men?" We ended up having a long dragged out discussion about this at work with another girl who is South American who agreed but interestingly she also said she actually enjoyes the attention. It sort of freaked me out and left a bad taste in my mouth.

Yep! That's what I'm talking about. For such a woman that kind of behaviour is not considered "low class". She likes it. This has to do with her socio-cultural conditioning. If you hang in neighborhoods where this type of behaviour is considered a legit form or meeting partners of the opposite gender, or rather, an appropriate mating or pre-mating ritual, you will see what I mean.

I draw people's attention to this story, which tipster "Shocked" posted on the News tab earlier today.

Since I grew up in Goa and was witness to the mash-up of foreign female tourists and male domestic tourists from other Indian states. The knee-jerk reaction was to blame the busloads that came to leer, from as far away as Bihar. Things got so bad that New Year and Xmas celebrations were segregated!! When I left home for Bombay one of my best friends was from Bihar. We often discussed the following -Is this the problem? That in the Indian arranged marriage context, the assumption among males that "a bride will be found for me" propogates a culture that never requires young men to approach/date women on a level plane?

And can this be simlarly applied to drunk frat boys? "I am so pwerful and drunk and nonchalant I will get the girls no matter what"

I know I am straying in my thinking, but what I am trying to say that incidents are fostered when there is no accountability.

I'm gonna need you to learn more about what hip-hop is before you equate an entire sub-culture with gangsterism.

What's there to learn? I grew up with hip-hop culture and witnessed the mannerisms of youth within the community I grew up in change in the span of 5 years during the late 80's. She's right, there is an overly present aspect of hip-hop culture that embraces thuggery - a combination of deceit, objectification, exploitation, self-degradation and mischieve - inhumanity. African-American church and political leaders have spoken on this countless times over the past 2 decades.

Since I grew up in Goa and was witness to the mash-up of foreign female tourists and male domestic tourists from other Indian states. The knee-jerk reaction was to blame the busloads that came to leer, from as far away as Bihar.

Neale - yeah, and even if you are dressed head to toe in salwar-kameez for SWIMMING.

Some guys were even taken pics of us!!! And they were uncles with their kids!

I was shocked coz I thought Goa was more "progressive".

But I will say this - I felt way more safe and comfy there than anywhere in North India. Goa is a nice place.

"Your distinction between hooting and hollering on the one hand, and other forms of aggression against women on the other hand, is a false distinction."

O, really? So, the guy who makes a habit of catcalling women on the sidewalk, but not any more than that, can't/shouldn't be distinguished from someone whom commits a more serious transgression - say rape? I am sure we can agree that different types of intimidation should be responded to in different ways since the degree of the infractions vary? Not all men who intimidate women in one way (ex: by catcalling) necessarily do so in other ways (by committing a more serious sexual offense) - so, yes, I do believe a distinction is useful.

"I contest your claim that hooting and hollering is a particularly lower-class activity."

You may, but it is. As I have said before, this does not mean that affluent men do not intimidate women in other ways, but my point is, that they do in fact do it in other ways. The exception, as stated before, are young men who do so regardless of class/race. The minute you see wall street bigwigs catcalling on the sidewalk at the same rate as working class men, I will retract my assertion. You will not see this.

"...we need to look at the entire spectrum of how men intimidate and disrespect women in our society. And we most closely need to look at the way we and people around us behave, because that is where we have the most power to make an immediate change."

I agree. But a few comments on-line are neither the beginning nor the end of how anyone here handles this issue in the real world. Also, there are important issues that come into play with this topic and then there are observations which people make given their experiences. I do not believe that those observations necessarily detract from the important issues, but rational people could disagree.

What's there to learn? I grew up with hip-hop culture and witnessed the mannerisms of youth within the community I grew up in change in the span of 5 years during the late 80's. She's right, there is an overly present aspect of hip-hop culture that embraces thuggery - a combination of deceit, objectification, exploitation, self-degradation and mischieve - inhumanity. African-American church and political leaders have spoken on this countless times over the past 2 decades.

And black women in particular are fed up with the mainstream hip hop "culture"s portrayal of women.

It's true. This is something that is talked about alot in the black community.

Again, it's mainstream hip hop, with it's commercial emphasis. There is alot of good in underground hip hop though.

Even reggae is being influenced by the mainstream hip hop culture though, and that is something despised by alot of roots reggae enthusiasts.

I agree with Bidi-smoker's use of the term "low class". It doesn't indicate financial or social status, it indicates behaviour. But what is considered "low class" behaviour to me is something totally normal and acceptable to alot of women. They see no disrespect whatsoever in being hooted and hollered at. They consider it a compliment. Again, we are all products of our cultural conditionings.

Perhaps this is a cultural gap? A black man approaches a Desi woman as he would a black woman, assuming common pigmentation means common cultural attitude. Unaware that Desis belong to the pickle-up-the-ass genus of Victorian colonial culture.

Ikram, you could have a point there. I've seen black men assume some Indian women to be of West Indian cultural origin, which tends to be way less conservative than India's culture, regarding sexuality and male/female relationships. Or, they assume (East) Indian culture is similar in that regard to West Indian culture.

Likewise, there is the same misconception among Blacks and people of African descent that everyone subscribes to the same social rules, or are 'supposed' to. There are generationa, sub-cultural and moral gaps in this.

At the same token, there are Westernized women of East Indian descent who subscribe to these social practices; who indulge in non-Desi cultures and sub-cultures.

AJP: got to this thread a bit late. Rest assured, soon as I'm back in DC, you're a phone call away from Punjabi Wrath On Demand (motto: "It's Scaretastic!"). Call me...Mini-Maisnon. :-D

Sorry to hear about this. I think DC is to you what SF is to me, in some ways. Some places, you just can't catch a break.

Tamasha in # 257

WAY off topic, but:

Isn't the safety pin idea dangerous? Do you sterilize them after each "use" or are we dealing with shared needles here?

I'm no doctor (much to the chagrin of my family) but can't diseases be spread that way?

I'm the least concerned if a man who molests me gets a disease and dies. In fact, now that you got me thinking about it, I won't be washing or changing those pins.

ajk, I refer you to my comment #365 above. And my point is not that a catcall and rape are the same thing. My point is that it rapidly becomes unproductive to focus on a specific type of expression rather than on totality of the encounter. You claim that catcalls are a working-class behavior. Maybe. A couple of other people have claimed that in some contexts where catcalls are common, they are also not considered particularly threatening. Maybe that too. The issue here is threatening encounters, whether the medium of the threat is a catcall, a disrespectful statement, a grope, or whatever else. (How one ranks the severity of each of these is not the point. Obviously a rape is more severe than a grope.)

As I said in comment 365, whether catcalls are a working class behavior could make for an interesting academic study. But what problem will it solve? Let's focus on problem solving. Let's identify the encounters that are problematic and focus on reducing their incidence. That is going to require that we think about more difficult topics than catcalls -- topics like misogyny, privilege, power.

Oy, sorry. Haven't yet read all the comments.

Several months ago I had a similar experience to situation #2, but in circumstances and with comments such that I felt very physically threatened and endangered. I called my friend Scotto to a) scare the person away and b) ask him to come and pick me up. Recently Scotto and I were at a party talking about Aikido, a martial art he got me to try for a while (I hope to return to some time) and which he's quite devoted to. Scotto was saying that in general these martials arts are good at fostering a certain kind of self-confidence---not the confidence that you can kick anyone's ass, but the confidence that you can approach a situation with some deliberateness and also walk away from it with a little less trauma. A female friend of ours argued that it still doesn't fix anything, and it glosses over how awful these situations are. I piped up that it's not a cure, but it makes it better--I can imagine that years ago I would have totally panicked in this sutation. Instead, I never really lost it, and I made two key observations that I attributed to Aikido---1) that I deliberately thought not to give this harraser an opportunity to knock me off my feet or throw me off balance, and so I maintained a solid stance and did not run until I felt confident that I could run without being tripped and 2) that I was not going to respond with either hostility or passivity/fake niceness, but firmly kept telling the harraser to leave me alone. I felt this kept the harrassers "advances" from accelerating.

I still found it very upsetting, and still find it upsetting. I definitely travel in packs and am extremely wary of being alone at night, which makes me very sad when I think about it too much.

Then come's the 2nd generation, with their "We are just like white people" attitude and look down upon people like black's and wonder why they are so dirty! Well if your ancestor's were shitted on for the last 400 hundred year's then you would be "dirty" also. Think about it!! Blacks struggled for hundred's of years in this country and their struggle made it easy for your brown asses to become doctor's and what ever else in this country and how do Indian's show respect for that? They just look down on them like every other elitst.

You go to India and there is just as many Indian jag off's as there are black's and hispanic's. In fact since there are a billion Indian's in the world I bet there are more dirty, ill-minded Indian's in the world as there are a total number of Blacks in the world, good and bad.

Yeah. If not for Dr.King Indians would still be drinking water in a separate fountain along with Blacks and Hispanics. I would have liked to see the faces of some those North Indians claiming to be descendants of Aryans during that time.

What's there to learn? I grew up with hip-hop culture and witnessed the mannerisms of youth within the community I grew up in change in the span of 5 years during the late 80's. She's right, there is an overly present aspect of hip-hop culture that embraces thuggery - a combination of deceit, objectification, exploitation, self-degradation and mischieve - inhumanity. African-American church and political leaders have spoken on this countless times over the past 2 decades.

Just as a jump-off from what you wrote, and not as a criticism in anyway:

There's a lot to learn as rap music is a musical artform with much to teach. Poetry can be dogerel (spelling) or it can be Walt Whitman. The only people who lose out when they equate hip hop with thuggery are the people who miss out on the great stuff. I wish I was immersed in hop hip culture, as you meet some of the most dynamic, thoughtful people in those communities, of all colors and creeds. Its just that they are not getting played on the radio. On the radio is some bullshit. I don't think some of it is even hip hop anymore. A lot of songs don't have a rhyme scheme, and they're is no imagery beyond the most basic level. Maybe it used to be a cliche to think about what happened to hip hop, but to me, the only song I can think of right now that is hip hop is that Lupe Fiasco song about how he used to go skateboarding when he was a kid. Its kind of startling that the only real hip hop song I know that tells a story, uses creativity, and tries to elevate perspective; is a song by a relative new-comer thats not in itself as sophisticated as some of the songs that used to be out there. But then again I'm not into hip hop like I used to be and I'm sure there's great poets out there. For one, there's Outlandish

Um, I've given up on the substance of the thread, it looks like it's done and over but. . .

Abhi, 195: you're hilarious.

Instead, I never really lost it, and I made two key observations that I attributed to Aikido---1) that I deliberately thought not to give this harraser an opportunity to knock me off my feet or throw me off balance, and so I maintained a solid stance and did not run until I felt confident that I could run without being tripped and 2) that I was not going to respond with either hostility or passivity/fake niceness, but firmly kept telling the harraser to leave me alone. I felt this kept the harrassers "advances" from accelerating.

Very cool Saheli. I have also done Aikido, and yeah I go through a very similiar thing in situations like that. granted I sucked at Aikido. It does though leave the after thought of being treated rudely but thats different I guess

I still found it very upsetting, and still find it upsetting. I definitely travel in packs and am extremely wary of being alone at night, which makes me very sad when I think about it too much.

And I'm sorry that that happened to you

I always find this a difficult topic, because I don't have answers, which makes me uncomfortable. Violence is a very present thread in two ways: the threat of violence from others and the option of violence as a reaction.

If it's not too late to ask: Anna, when asking "what did you say to me?", what would be the point of asking? I mean, I assume that you just asked and didn't sit there analysing the best strategic choic of words, etc. -- but in general, it's a common response, so I wonder about it. As you noted, it gave him an opportunity to repeat himself. One theory is that the public attention and (theoretical) shame would halt him, but it doesn't seem to have worked. Shame seems to be a much weaker force that it used to be. Violence is the third route, where asking "what did you say?" means giving someone a chance to back down before simply hitting them. That would probably be pretty effective, if you were big/skilled/numerous enough to dominate him physically.

Assuming that violence isn't the right solution, and assuming that anybody making such comments is immune to shame ... well, I don't really know how to stop someone. Ignoring them, while difficult, may be the most effective response?

In the short term, of course. In the big picture, this is a symptom of a lot of deeply embedded problems intersecting.

Scotto,

sometimes somebody who says something to you is too much of a coward to repeat it again, clearly and directly to your face. While that wasn't the case here, it's not always a bad way of dealing with this sort of situation. I once confronted 3 men with what they had said, the only response I got from any of them came from the one I was looking directly at - he said "I didn't say it". The other two kept completely mum.

It's actually a story I've been meaning to blog for some time.

Just a coincidence. Happened to watch Gurinder Chadha's BHAJI ON THE BEACH yesterday. Interesting insights into racial-sexual phenomenon from the Indian perspective. Seemed confined to England and irrelevant to the Indian diaspora in the US when the movie first came out, but quite applicable to the US now.

#379 "If not for Dr.King Indians would still be drinking water in a separate fountain along with Blacks and Hispanics."
Yep, I agree. And not just Dr. King, but a lot of non-Gandhian black leaders should deserve the credit for making America a more inclusive society. I said "more," not perfect.

I wish I was immersed in hop hip culture, as you meet some of the most dynamic, thoughtful people in those communities, of all colors and creeds. Its just that they are not getting played on the radio. On the radio is some bullshit. I don't think some of it is even hip hop anymore. A lot of songs don't have a rhyme scheme, and they're is no imagery beyond the most basic level. Maybe it used to be a cliche to think about what happened to hip hop, but to me, the only song I can think of right now that is hip hop is that Lupe Fiasco song about how he used to go skateboarding when he was a kid. Its kind of startling that the only real hip hop song I know that tells a story, uses creativity, and tries to elevate perspective; is a song by a relative new-comer thats not in itself as sophisticated as some of the songs that used to be out there. But then again I'm not into hip hop like I used to be and I'm sure there's great poets out there. For one, there's Outlandish

Thank you Sahej... Amitabh clarified earlier, but really, I think you touched on a lot of great points. I used to have issues with all rap music because I only heard what was on the radio. But there really is so much out there, and there are so many artists whose lyrics really touch on some interesting topics. I was sort of re-introduced to many of these artists through my boyfriend... its unfortunate that you have people like 50 cent getting famous with the nonsense they rap about.

Ennis - do you think there's any way to inform your decision about whether some random catcallers are of the type you encountered, or the type Anna encountered? That is, I can see the scenario you described, but if I were trying to decide how to react to some thugs on the street saying things, do you have nay insight as to making a better decision?

Honestly, no. I think the difference had more to do with the fact that I am male and tall, and she is female and smaller than I. The environmental factors should have favored her - she was in front of a cafe whereas I was confronting racist idiots in a park like area. They had less of a chance of getting caught if they had jumped me.

And I can't say that my decision was well thought out - like Anna I just went on automatic pilot.

Then come's the 2nd generation, with their "We are just like white people" attitude and look down upon people like black's and wonder why they are so dirty!

Just to restore some of your faith in the 2nd Generation, there are desis here in the US who like to pass for black.

Just to restore some of your faith in the 2nd Generation, there are desis here in the US who like to pass for black.

Thank you. I wanted to state this earlier, but didn't want to bring up the whole argument concerning the misconception that all dark skinned people in the world subscribe to the Black cultural, racial and social identity. I understand that they do not. At this point in time it's become a choice, even for those who would otherwise be White, non-South Asian, Hispanic, or of Indigenous ancestries.