the single, 25 yr.+, independent-thinking desi girl and is why I love to find solidarity with my single desi sisters - whether in over chai, or virtually by reading my favorite desi gal bloggers ( Rupa, TheBarMaid, Chick Pea, brimful, SP, to name a few).

I'm not at all quibbling with your rollcall since I read all those righteous babes , but I find it amusing that you neglected to find solidarity with the obvious and original "single, 25+ indie-thinking desi girl" ...or is there still beef in the bunker? If there is, for shame. Can't we strong women ever get along?

Anyway maybe I'm the only one who remembers (probably, since she barely updates her blue blog and the post I'm linking was memorable to me for very personal reasons), but over three years ago, ANNA was "dishing" about this very topic and doing it very well. Nothing personal against you. I enjoy your explorations of accessible subjects which are surefire threadmakers...like this one. My money's on 300+...takers?

- Don't tell her you read Sepia Mutiny. She'll thing you're deep and intellectual rather than a raw animal of a man, and that you might care about culture and stuff. Leave some fun in it for her by letting her think you're as much of a conversion project as any other dude.

hahaha thats so true! its also really sad that theres such an inherent distrust between desi guys and girls, and not just ABCD women. Its like every move the guys make, theyre testing you on your decency. Giving in to natural urges just isnt allowed, because I think to some degree desi guys dont hit on desi girls for flings,(thats reserved for the non desi girls) but its like theyre testing them for marriage to some degree. And thats awful ecause desi girls are forced into a mould they dont necessarily belong to, at least for appearances sake. And i think desi girls would treat the guys the same way. I dont know if its innately about some greater degree of respect or simply the fear of being forced by parents into a commitment just on the basis of race. And let me tell you, desi girls from india/Pak/SL whatever are no more 'moral' than ABCD girls. That's a big illusion (unless she's from some small town and barely been allowed out of the house).

or is there still beef in the bunker? If there is, for shame.

"still"? I wish someone would have let me known the who, what, when where, why... If there is drama in the bunker it is definatly not of the petty girl fight sort that people like to hope for- but rather the meatier fight club type that involves lawyers and LAPD. ;-)

My goal? To get more than the 441 comments on the last blog...because, I know we can...! :-)

have you also discovered that the minute you discover youre PERFECTLY comfortable being single and happy forever is when someone eligible walks across your path?

I think to some degree desi guys dont hit on desi girls for flings

Wow, I must be in the minority on that.

Make sure to make the guy chase you a little bit and space things out accordingly

Wow, the written equivalent of the whole 'running around the tree bit...'

Maybe this is an age thing because I'm in a slightly different age range, but what I find about brown-on-brown dating is the whole saga that takes place, right from the first meeting to the will-they-won't-they 'friendly' talks/texts/emails to the big drawn out slowness of the whole relationship to the couple-y-PDA-ness... relationships just seem much more immature, dramatic and publicly shared than any other combo I know of.

Even though I know I'm guilty of this myself I do think we are much harder on people of our own culture, mainly because our parents, relatives and entire community has made our impression of inter-community relationships fraught with crazy images from pimp-bling wearing wannabe gangstas with chest hair galore through to arranged marriage stereotypes to smothering, obnoxious doctors/investment bankers/engineers...

The main thing that has put me off desi couples I know though is that the girls seem to revolve their lives around their 'man.' Ick.

have you also discovered that the minute you discover youre PERFECTLY comfortable being single and happy forever is when someone eligible walks across your path?

Negatory.

cookie cutter indian girls are hard to find amidst all you indie-whatevers.

joking!

yeah, desi relationships are pretty immature, because there is too much he-said she-said drama.
also, i think if youre the type of person who enjoys flings on a regular basis, then you will have flings irrespective of race. But if you're not, or you've been brought up good and proper scared of the implications of dating by your parents stuck-in-the-sixties, then you're more likely to limit your fling/relational experiences to white guys, or even desis outside your family/community's regulr contact range

Dear SM indie-whatevers helpline,

Punjabi girls are impossible. Northies are patakhas macacas. Must I go South for love shove, pyar vyar? Being a Northie boy, can I go Southie?

Sincerely,

Confused and might go Southie
Anytown, USA

Yes, NvM, Confucius say you "Must go South for love". If you don't believe me, check this out (from the News tab): here

taz:

i haven't had a chance to see the video as i'm running out the door..but read your post ;)...

first of all:

I love to find solidarity with my single desi sisters - whether over chai, or virtually by reading my favorite desi gal bloggers ( Rupa, TheBarMaid, Chick Pea, brimful, SP, to name a few).

secondly:

Never tell a desi guy that you are really a doctor

for example i met this guy..and he told me i was the intimidator... how a boy can be intimidated by a measley legume, i will never understand... i just laughed...

thirdly:

Don't date a jobless bum. Or desi doctors.

female docs are looked upon as the 'intimidator' as above.. a lot of times.. as i have experienced and so have a hell of a lot of my indian female doctor friends.. guy desi docs are cherished... and yes i argue this point with my brother (who is a doc) all the time..and he concurs as well..

okay over and out from the beans world..gotta get to work! more might come later on during the day...
thanks taz for making my morning and making me laugh!

I had my fair share of dating desi guys (prompted to do so by family)... One particularly stands out, this being an highly educated guy asked me what my hobbies were (i mean really? do people discuss hobbies anymore?), at that time i had just taken up the sport of fencing and attempted to tell him how i'm just learning the sport etc, all he did was look at me in fear, first and the last time i saw him. Now i am just married, my husband is a desi (never been to desh but has tendencies to say how he loves his desh). He is the eptiome of ying and yang between eastern and western values.

what my hobbies were (i mean really? do people discuss hobbies anymore?

What? Why not? Is it more suave to just "read" potential hobbies as the convo goes along? Am I not reading signals as I should if I ask? Am I uncool? Help.

no von mises:

did you read my connection between basketball and diwali.. where the heck is my draft tip ;)? well hobbies are are discussed.. because who the hell wants to talk about what you do all day in your career (that can be a bit boring).. hobbies make a person multi-faceted... so yes hobbies are discussed..usually not asked in the form 'what are you hobbies'... more like 'what do you like to do in your free time outside of slaving away'?

What do ABD girls think about dating FOB guys. I got the "How dare you ask me out" look from her. NOT cool.

usually not asked in the form 'what are you hobbies'... more like 'what do you like to do in your free time outside of slaving away'?

I blog! and I ... ummmm ... work out! Who has time for anything else ;)

i find meeting boys at desi events particularly difficult. the men usually just stand around staring at the brown sugar and dare not make a move. if a girl tries to make conversation - she is instantly declared as being "too forward" and slutty and therefore off the list. but we cant jsut stand around sipping drinks and staring at each other all night. you have to come out of your shell at some point!

I blog! and I ... ummmm ... work out! Who has time for anything else ;)

dear bloggers.. this is ennis biodata speaking out.. if interested please email chick 'cupid' pea and i will screen and send him the ones that make the 'cut'..anyone out there fit these 'hobby' descriptions? being hawt is a requirement ;)...

Oh,how I wish you posted this earlier. These golden 'Dating While Desi Rules (For Girls)' are priceless! On retrospect..I could have really avoided being the loser magnet.

interesting, this talk of desi-dating.
i have a feeling i am a little older than most of you, or at least i am out of the dating game. one of the things i have never been able to shake is to look at desi women as "sister" like. i grew up in winnipeg manitoba and my parents were one of the first wave of south asians there. its a small, cold city (well, not so small anymore) in the middle of the canadian prairie. when i was young, there were about 7 desi families in the whole city. going to mandir was to go to someones basement. to this day i feel like i should know all the macaca families in winnipeg b/c during my formative years, i did. so of course everyone was uncle, anti and by extension didi and dada. dating in that scene would have been hell, come to think of it.

i'm almost 40 now, and SM keeps me hip to what's going on. its great to see topics like this discussed in this way and to find out how we as a community are changing and engaging with these issues. i moved to toronto about 10 years ago, and one thing that i loved was how all the brown young people would hang out together, smoking behind the high school and speaking tamil or what have you. this was sooooooooo far removed from my teenage years.

so for better or for worse i somehow conditioned myself to look outside the community for crushes and dating. thereby passing by all the lovely desi women i knew or saw. oh well. my loss. i am now engaged to a lovely german woman. who loves rasogolla. in hindsight, i see that this is veeeeeeeeeery important.

my 2 cents.
d

Are there other rules to Dating while Desi that I don't know about?

There are no rules. Do what feels right; it'll all work out. (At least that's what's worked for almost everyone I I know, including those of us who've dated/married desi.)

Hey, what do the oh-so-graciously marrieds know about dating :P

How about: "Be Honest"

worked for me =)

Hey, what do the oh-so-graciously marrieds know about dating :P

I know that you should date your significant other for as LONG as possible before you get married!

Hey, what do the oh-so-graciously marrieds know about dating :P

Absolutely nothing, I admit. But wanted to make the point to not think too much, no matter what point in a relationship a person is in. (Hey, it works for us ;)).

How about: "Be Honest"

worked for me =)

*cough* bullshit *cough*

*cough* bullshit *cough*

Yea, I figured that comment wouldn't be well-received on this thread =)

for example i met this guy..and he told me i was the intimidator... how a boy can be intimidated by a measley legume, i will never understand... i just laughed...

Good heavens! The guys/girls all of you have met (or heard of at one remove) seem to belong to a wholly different demographic from those I knew while I was in the U.S.! Here's one weird thing: in the two separate almost-dating-but-not-quite situations I found myself in, both the women in question asked me to tell them something about any women I knew whom I greatly admired (I am male). At that time in my life, I knew five such women truly worthy of admiration. The common thread that linked them was that they were all, in a certain sense, resolute fighters. I suspect that they are what Chick Pea's guy would call "intimidators". However, in both cases, it turned out that I -- by the very act of knowing the aforesaid women (full disclosure: I was not romantically involved with any of these five) -- had, in these almost-to-be dates' eyes, become the "intimidator". One of them, in response to the story of one of the aforesaid five, went so far as to say, "I would've advised your friend to listen to her parents... She should have been more deliberate in thinking through the issues of a Hindu-Muslim marriage.." or something like that. WTF!?!

Here's my question: are the guys and girls one meets at parties thrown by those McMansion-dwelling, WSJ-reading desi "uncles" and "aunties" one is linked up with -- whether one wants to or not (!) -- through the desi grad-school network very, very different from the guys/girls all of you are referring to ?

it seems wrong getting dating tips from a gay brother.

ROFL @ #30. My exact thoughts :)

The walk itself gives it all away - but besides that, the short-vid is well made and you gotta commend the Shetty guy for the effort, because he kept up with OC scene than the Desi scene :)

Being honest is a sure-fire way to eternally being lonely and single :-D

I came to the US, when I was 15. I had all the FOB leanings that ABC gals detest. There were 4 desi girls in my class, and heck I asked them all out, and got total ignore to 'How dare you ask me out.' They damaged my already fragile teen ego by running into bathrooms when I approached them etc etc. Heck they were not even good looking gals...by desi standards. I was hip in the desh, and was firends with much better looking girl

Then there was this white gal who saw potential when I was a freshman in college. She noticed the BO thing and got me into the habit of using deodorant regularly. She bought me smart clothes. To cut the long story short, I started detesting desi ABC gals and dated only whites. If you talk to FOB's guys that landed here in their mid to uppere teens, most of them have had similar experience. They will either go white or a FOB gal from back home. Teen years are very fragile emotionally, and desi gals just crush it with their own insecurities.

Its no wonder I am married to a white gal, and get nasty stares from desi gals at desi gatherings.

Why are Desi and white the only choices?

She noticed the BO thing and got me into the habit of using deodorant regularly.

Those women...always trying to tinker with perfection...

Seriously, that's hilarious

have you also discovered that the minute you discover youre PERFECTLY comfortable being single and happy forever is when someone eligible walks across your path?

Since when did being a doctor become a bad thing in the desi community?

You know what I think? It's all about conformity. At some level everyone likes a bit of rebellion and non conformity. If you are all raised and socialise with people who say being a doctor is the norm and all you talk about at social gatherings is what speciality your son and daughter will go into, it's sexy to say 'Yo, fuck that, I'm going to be an actor/electrician/stripper/performance artist'. And the hearts and panties of thousands of brown teenage girls being brainwashed a la Kaavya Vishwanathan go aquiver.

"Then there's that non-ABCD non-FOB bunch. That group is really messed up"

Heyyyyy...

And just BLECH in general.

I should note that the desi girls whose hearts go aquiver will mostly marry the dude with £££ and $$$ whilst you languish teaching English to refugees and immigrants and dance naked in gay bars to pay the rent as you wait for your novel/film script to be recognised -- but in the meantime, you can at least say, you were a rebel, were 'a bit of rough'

Desi girls like guys with $$$.

I for one would be happy to marry a female doctor who makes more money than me. Or any girl that makes more than me. What could be wrong with that?

Spoken like a true desi guy.

If you talk to FOB's guys that landed here in their mid to uppere teens, most of them have had similar experience. They will either go white or a FOB gal from back home.

totally agree. Whats up with ABD girls giving the cold shoulder to FOBs. Maybe because not a lot of FOBs are doctors. Only engineers.

Dating Rule #1 for Desis: Date who you are attracted to, respect and admire.
Dating Rule #2 for Desis: Marry who you love.
Date Rule #3 for Desis: Not much else matters.

Haha. Word. Though I'm not a writer because I want to get laid or impress anyone with my rebellion. I'm just too lazy for anything that requires math, manual labor or graduate education.

Brilliant stuff -- I reckon Proust must have said something similar at some point in his life ;-)

I know this is a cliche, but I still find it extremely true. Desi girls like guys who are assholes. argue it as much as you want, defend it in your minds, but when it comes down to the practical, its true.

Maybe Desi girls don't realize it. Maybe they think its the "edge" or the "confidence" that attracts them. I don't know. What i do know, is that the for the few sincerely nice desi guys out there, the lack of the following is held against them by desi girls. - the game playing, the first impression chutzpa, the attitude, the ability to say mundane things in highly academic lingo.

And even more progressive ABCD girls, who are amazing in their own right, don't give nice guys a fair shake. its something about being sincere, nice, and straightforward that girls tend to find boring. So boring, that its not worth their time to figure out what beyond the surface.

A rule for talking to desi guys you meet over online matrimonials: If they're from the motherland, don't use slang, be sarcastic, or be sesquipedalian.

Chickpea:

I can understand how it feels when you're branded as "intimidating" or as having a "dominant" personality. I'm by no means an alpha female, but I guess it doesn't always come off like that.

The first guy my parents ever try to set me up with was some dude from India that my dad met when he was over there. Family from Amritsar, the guy was in Delhi studying to be a doctor. I originally had no desire to be set up with someone from the motherland, but I decided to be open-minded. Who knows, right? Right. His mom was a prof. of Punjabi literature so I was sweating his mom more than him. We chatted online for a month. I wasn't up for marriage for a variety of reasons: I was 21 at the time, I was still getting over a bad break-up (of which my parents weren't aware), and something just didn't sit right with me about this guy. But I continued to give it a chance and kept getting to know him. He was an impressive guy: a self-proclaimed feminist, really funny, and it seemed that he was pretty charismatic. He expressed some pretty liberal opinions that I agreed with. My opinions were met with his agreement as well. We could have become really good friends. But like I said, I was still 21, didn't want to be married at all, and something just didn't feel right about the situation. My parents pressured me for a yes or no - so I said no. Apparently, no one ever told this guy. So when I heard from him after a couple of weeks, he was "breaking up" with *me*, on the record. His reasoning? "I really wanted to come to the US before getting married. But more importantly, you have a dominant personality, and I have a dominant personality, and when two dominant personalities get together, there can only be fireworks."

I was cracking up most of the time because this fool didn't know I'd already told my parents I wasn't interested. What did bother me was that we had never argued, we seemed to agree on most things, had a similar sense of humor, but he still characterized me as having a "dominant" personality. Sidenote - I found out that three days later, he was engaged. *vomit*

But yeah, I've been told most of my life that I come off a bit aggressive, but last fall/winter, there was a period of about two months where at least 5 people (men and women) told me that I "intimidate men", that I don't act submissive enough, and that if I want to hook a Punjabi guy, what I'm supposed to do is act shy and submissive, and then slowly bring out my actual personality. Then by the time he's hooked, it's too late, and I can then be my "crazy self" (their words, not mine). It put me off a bit, but then I realized, those people haven't dated me, and don't know how I am in a bf/gf context. So whatevZ. Innit.

I know this is a cliche, but I still find it extremely true. Desi girls like guys who are assholes. argue it as much as you want, defend it in your minds, but when it comes down to the practical, its true.

A lot of Desi girls do. But, on the other end, a lot of Desi guys want a Desi girl who makes them chase her, or causes drama. They might say they want a nice girl, but they want a girl who makes them work for it.

I'm sure there aren't many of these typical guys/girls on SM though ::: battering eyelashes ::: We appreciate intelligence and kindness, don't we? :)

I'm just working in advertising until I can save up enough for my own maidservant and cork-lined room,

Ah yes, what the world needs is an À la recherche du temps perdu set amongst the medical middle classes of Indo-American society --- what you have to ask yourself though, BidiSmoker, is which one of your uncles is the Baron de Charlus character, sado-masochistic homosexual panderer, pimp and boy lover and all? ;-)

I'm sure there aren't many of these typical guys/girls on SM though ::: battering eyelashes ::: We appreciate intelligence and kindness, don't we? :)

That and callypgian kundis.

It seems like there's quite a wide range of ages in the commenters. Would people mind putting down their age in from of their comments so others can properly put these comments in context? Might be helpful. Btw, I'm a 25 year old SBM.

Anyway, I have met so many diferent types of desi girls that I feel its almost impossible to come to any kind of general conclusion about DWD. I've had first dates get *extremely steamy*, but also third or fourth dates where the most exciting thing going on was the mango chutney. There are plenty of traditional girls, but also lots of more "free-spirited" ones. The one thing I have noticed is that the majority of desi girls are extremely social-minded. Like how many desi girls do i know who are on friendster/facebook? Like 1000. How many of ya'll are on that??

Oh DAMN. And today is the day I'm stuck in lab and can't play on the Internet all day.

I love desi guys, but the desi guys DO NOT love me back. Seriously...speed-dating and blind-date misadventures aside, I've been asked out by a grand total of ONE desi guy(s). And I live in Chicago, IL. And I get plenty of attention from guys in general, so I know I'm not just some socially inadept ugly loser :) Indian guys are just not interested in me. And honestly, I hate to say this, but I think it has to do with my extracurricular activities -- I was the girl in med school who produced The Vagina Monologues, organized Take Back the Night, was the leader of the pro-choice group, and president of the ob/gyn society. God forbid you be a woman with an opinion or care about gender issues because then you're a feminist. (How shameful!) This falls more into what our own garbanzobean has been talking about (and my own brothers agree with me): desi guys are intimidated by a woman who's successful in her career and has a strong opinion (GOD FORBID). (Prove me wrong guys! PROVE ME WRONG! And not in a gold-digging way because that's gross.) I date plenty of ambitious hard-working guys I share alot in common with, and we happily support each other's careers. That's what normal people do. Why can't the ambitious hard-working desi guys do this?

I don't really care too much about it right now because I'm not interested in settling down for a long time but I totally see this being a problem in about 10 years when I want to get married (and I do want to marry an Indian).

Right now I'm dating a white guy in med school who's hippie parents converted to Hinduism and sent him to boarding school in India for 14 years. It's fun because...this is kind of like what dating a desi guy would be like! (I wouldn't know.) We make inside jokes in Hindi (his is better than mine) and about Bollywood, but we totally didn't have to play any stupid games. [Ooh..that's another thing...if you talk to a desi guy in a social setting, you're too forward and want to get married. There's immediately this long-term potential there that scares him off. And her too, probably.]

A lot of Desi girls do. But, on the other end, a lot of Desi guys want a Desi girl who makes them chase her, or causes drama. They might say they want a nice girl, but they want a girl who makes them work for it.

This is a load of bunk. I have yet to meet a guy that says "Man she sure won my heart by ignoring me for 3 months while I was chasing her down" Any female attempt to logically describe "what they want" makes about as much sense as watching Anna Kournakova for her tennis skill.

Being nice and kindhearted goes directly out the window. What really matters is social proof, and your ability for non-verbal, subtextual communication. Master these, and the female brain is transformed into mush. And women are more suscpetible to the halo effect, I'd imagine.

I'm the last person to have a clue but,

Why do Desi women want to be with Desi men? I think this one needs to be explained to us Desis men. The whole, we share a culture thing? What else?

Isn't it true that if you like someone you will find a way to make it easy, unless there is a reason to make it hard, like distance, family drama, work, ect? So, if it really is hard to date desi, what does that mean? Maybe it means sometimes a person is ambivalent about the whole, must meet a Desi thing.

So I want to turn it back on Desi women, in that its a complete fallacy to think that most Desi women are constrained to just dating Desi men, as most Desi women do have valid options to date whoever they get along with. I don't even need an answer, but I'd like to ask the question. How much is it something you believe to be true, that finding a Desi guy is really all that important in the grand scheme of things?

Personally I'd never want to give away the hope of being with a Desi woman, but I know that it causes awkwardness, as in some ways its not realistic to who I am to be able to relate solely to a Desi woman.

Yay, another 400-comment post!!!!!!!!

Taz, you write this

# Make sure to make the guy chase you a little bit and space things out accordingly. # Go to the bases three times slower with a desi guy than you would with a non-desi.

and then ask this???

Is it really harder to date us desi girls?

Haven't you pretty much answered your own question earlier????

I think there's a vicious cycle going on -- this mutual suspicion between desi guys and gals which are just perpetuated by these "rules". Throw these rules out of the window for once and see what happens!!!

I've actually been on the receving end of the famous 'desi-girl attitude' towards desi guys. I was told by a desi girl once --- 'I'm Indian, not blonde', when I tried to make a (very innocous) move. Somehow many desi girls seem to think themselves as being superior because they keep the (desi) guys hanging around, and treat all goris as sl*ts. I just think of that attitude as cultural baggage.

As a FOB and being a bit out of the mould in my tastes, I agree with a previous comment -- I see myself ending up with a very liberal FOB gal (hard to find one in the states) or a gori.

I don't want this to be construed as being hateful towards 2-gen gals, I see a lot of fabulous ones, unfortunately, they seem to be their fab selves only towards goras, and follow the 'rules' too faithfully towards us desi boys.

As an introspective thought, I might be doing that too...

To add to my comments above (#52), has there been a discussion yet about the desi obsession with Friendster/Facebook? NOTE TO THE BLOGGERS.

Does any other ethnic group engage in as much navel gazing about dating/love as desis?

Rupa,

I think the problem, more so than not wanting to date someone ambitious, is, there is not a realistic way for an Indian guy to meet you. You for example, have a boyfriend. But you eventually want to marry someone Indian. So the key interval of time for that to happen is for you not to have a boyfriend. If you are a go-getter type of person, maybe a lot of men generally would be intimidated. Your current BF, he speaks a foreign language and he lived in another country for 14 years, and he's a med student. He does not sound like your average run of the mill guy either. Honestly, if you saw an Indian guy now, you would be comparing him to someone you already probably have solid feelings for. He's not going to come off looking good. At best, he'd be interesting, at worst, he'd be scuzzy for talking to you while knowing you had a boyfriend.

If you want to date an Indian guy there has to be some realistic way for that to happen, and its not very possible if a person already has, what appears to be a pretty good relationship already. Any guy with half a brain is going to understand that he has no realistic chance of breaking up a relationship of a woman who is solid and with-it. Nor should he want to.

(As I say this, I realize I am inviting many of sisters on here to call me an ass.)

I'll be the first - you're an ass!

=)

Physicians, get thyselves onto Friendster and Shaadi.com. Seriously. You'll meet like minded people and even have some illicit fun as you search for that soulmate who knows how to chill with your family whilst at the same time eating tofu/red meat in line with your own enviromentalist-feminist/football loving dispositions. In other words, its a good way to get laid as well as find a wife or husband.

Point taken Sahej. However I was single for 2 years prior and didn't hear a peep from the desi guys :). TWO YEARS. In Chicago. And I go out plenty.

I think most Indian guys expressly prefer girls that are educated and have their own opinions.

Yes, many want a girl who is successful academically and professionally, but he still needs to be the one who clearly wears the proverbial pants. Again, not all Injun guys are like this - I'm addressing more of the stereotype that a lot of commenters are putting forward. She has to be good, but he has to be better.

Yes, many want a girl who is successful academically and professionally, but he still needs to be the one who clearly wears the proverbial pants.

Sigh, you just can't win if you are a desi guy, can you? There are just so many ways to hate on us...

Rupa, how the heck do you only get asked out ONCE in two years by desi guys in Chicago? I live here too, and its like 50% desi. Hahaha. Ok maybe not fifty but it seems like that sometimes.

desi guys are intimidated by a woman who's successful in her career and has a strong opinion (GOD FORBID). (Prove me wrong guys! PROVE ME WRONG! And not in a gold-digging way because that's gross.)

Bidi, I second you, this line of reasoning is a rationalization against the fact that Indian women are not approached enough by Indian men. It serves their egos best to conclude that men are intimidated by "strong personalities" The term itself is ridiculous. What does that mean, "strong" or "dominant" personality? To voice your opinion? To have your own interests? By definition a romantic relationship requires certain concessions to be made in favor of the partner - on both ends.

The real reason, IMO, for desi guys not approaching desi women (or women in general for that matter) is a lack of foundation in the "dating" methodology. Social dynamics in the US are something 1st gen immigrants have no clue about, and subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) dismiss as deviant. So 2nd gen people are left to "learn on the job" so to speak.

Since the onus of initiation falls onto the male, we have an exponentially more difficult time. If the woman's role is simply to sit back and field requests, certainly it's easier to do that rather than initiate, when you know your parents never did it, their parents never did it, their parents parents never did it, etc...

You know, I am tired of hearing that Desi women only run after rich desi doctors/lawyers/engineers. I am sure this was probably the norm back in the day, thus it is taken as the stereotype, but there is a whole new generation of desi women out there, I don’t know if it happens in the US as yet, but my gal pals in South Africa, who are educated, and earn very well have decided to strictly date 'artistic men'. They believe they make more than enough money, so they date men that 'fulfill other needs', and there are plenty of poets, artist, literature professors (person favorite), actors and not forgetting the UN and Peace Corp sweeties to go after.... Follow your heart and take care of your own pocket!

Chick Pea, somewhere out there is a rockstar waiting for you. I think you may need a new guitar…

i had other things to say but this is by far the funniest thing i've read in a long long time:

Any female attempt to logically describe "what they want" makes about as much sense as watching Anna Kournakova for her tennis skill.

There are just so many ways to hate on us...

Aww I didn't mean to come off hating - trust me, we get it, too.

Rupa,

Maybe part of it was intimidation, in that a lot of guys, more so then being threatened, probably feel they don't measure up. Guys tend to think that women like men who have something going for them. If they're in their 20's, they might not have much going for them other than an apartment bought by their parents and the ability to study really hard. Thats not going to make a dude confident about being with someone who is really awesome themselves.

The desi part of it, more than a special proclivity for desi men to be intimidated is, there is always the long-term in the back of the mind. When you're younger and don't know what you want, you tend to shy away from starting a relationship that you think has the odor of long-term. I honestly do not think it has much to do with desi men being especially intimidated by successful women.

This thread is brilliant - I love everyone coming up with a contention and statement, loading it with caveats, then another person disagreeing with them, citing their experience and successes/failures in the deadly mating dance of desi man and woman, hilarious.

400 post thread for sure I reckon just as someone already said.

You know, I am tired of hearing that Desi women only run after rich desi doctors/lawyers/engineers.

You are right-Desi women only run after rich WHITE VCs/lawyers/investment bankers. I went to a NETIP event in San Francisco 4 years ago and it was all about "empowered" desi women and their white trophy husbands/boyfriends.

Stand back! DesiDawg just dropped a bomb in # 74!

DesiDawg, I dont know about other Desi girls, but I like my chocolate brown/caramel. I like desi guys, they have already been trained by their mum! It's true, they already had to deal with a strong woman so another one just keeps his world balanced and those who try to fight it, learn the hard way.....
:)

TO #74: Hahahahhahahhahahhaha

It's true, they already had to deal with a strong woman so another one just keeps his world balanced and those who try to fight it, learn the hard way.....

That's pretty hot.

BTW, any man who whines about white dudes taking our women; you've already lost the game before the opening buzzer sounds. I've been there myself.

Man some of you seem to be nursing some deep wounds.

BTW, any man who whines about white dudes taking our women; you've already lost the game before the opening buzzer sounds. I've been there myself.

Sahej, the question is not about white dudes taking "our women" it's about "our women" prefering white dudes with a lot of $$$.

Desidawg,

What are you going to do, inject melanin into every white dude while they sleep? Or maybe rob all white men and give their money to the people of Fiji

Wow I can't believe I slept in today and a topic I claim to have serious authority over would be so far along :-)

Dating while brown has it's own complexities. I've learnt a lot in my prolific dating life and written and gotten beaten up over it as well. One thing is for certain, it's far less complicated to date non brown than a brown man. Dating a brown man brings in your own baggage and his baggage that you have to balance and deal with.

I love desi men, I admit it, I feel a certain "additional" connection to them I don't with non desis but dating a brown man also comes with a lot of additional "measuring up" that doesn't exist with a non brown. It's life and instead of fighting it I just deal with it. I test drove 8 cars before I bought one, I looked at 25 properties before I bought one, I research simple things like where to go eat on Saturday night, why the heck would I not want to measure up a man I'd be intimate with? Doh.

Why are people offended when they are measured up? I don't. I have standards I expect a man to have standards as well and if I don't measure up to his well then I don't for that man. It doesnt mean I don't for another. The problem I have isn't with the "measuring" the problem is the 'playa' potential so many upwardly mobile desi boys in NYC seem to have. That's a deal breaker. And when you've been a playa it's easy to spot one. I don't play that game anymore. Too old for it. I see bullshit I call it and move on.

why the heck would I not want to measure up a man I'd be intimate with?

Why indeed. Insert ribald double entendre here: [ ]

JOAT,

If a man doesn't measure up, why should he reveal his measurements just for the sake of being laughed at? Its not to do with intimidation, its moreso self preservation. I also agree with you on the Desi male mirage that we are players. Here's where it comes from to me. We're giving the illusion that because we are Indian, and a lot of our friends tell us we are so lucky to be indian because indian women are so hot and all, we think, "we have it made." When in reality, its not actually true. So we run around thinking we have all the options in the world, until the realization hits that, its not really going to work out that way. And thus ends the Desi man's mirage. And then, you do have some men who are Desi and players, but players come in all colors, and they are their own thing.

And to support Rupa...from another Rupa...the intimidation factor is real, it's substantial and one just has to navigate it. I leant it a long time ago and have made peace with it. I don't see it going away.

I think it all boils down (for me at least) to men wanting a woman who "needs and wants them" pure and simple. If I come across as a self sufficent, don't need a man for anything type I'm bound to bring out questions in the man I'm dating. He is bound to wonder "well if she doesn't need me why am I sticking around, looks like she's doing fine by herself". Men inherently love to "rescue" a woman even if it's from something completely mundane and silly because it makes them feel desired and wanted. It gives them a place to belong in a woman's life.

So you get the "he is intimidated" vibe when in reality all he wants is for you to want him and have room for him in your 'feminista, self sufficient, fearless female" life!

Bidismoker,
Awesome post. Certain desi women date rich white men. That's their personal choice and none of my business-it's the BS that they peddle to justify their dating preferences that ticks me off. Mama's boys, not liberal, cannot stand independent women blah blah blah. Get a life!

India had a women PM what like 30 years ago? Any chance the USA will ever have one?

I think it all boils down (for me at least) to men wanting a woman who "needs and wants them" pure and simple. If I come across as a self sufficent, don't need a man for anything type I'm bound to bring out questions in the man I'm dating. He is bound to wonder "well if she doesn't need me why am I sticking around, looks like she's doing fine by herself". Men inherently love to "rescue" a woman even if it's from something completely mundane and silly because it makes them feel desired and wanted. It gives them a place to belong in a woman's life.

That is not intimidation, thats wanting to be needed in a relationship. And none of that has anything to do with being Desi. All men feel that way.

If a man doesn't measure up, why should he reveal his measurements just for the sake of being laughed at?

But see you are assuming that the measurment is going to make a woman laugh. That is where insecurities come into play. Trust me I have them too but my insecurities get better with age. Things that bothered me before don't anymore because I've learnt to separate the sincere from the bullshit. I've also learnt that men are willing and open to improve themselves and change themselves for the right kind of woman. Being a brown woman comes with its own baggage but also amazing abilities IMO. I've empowered men to give up smoking, cut down on drinking and improve their food habits. Some might call it manipulating but these men did it willingly because it came with brown love. The same men would have told a non brown chick to piss off if she had tried to "change" them.

The playa thing what can I tell you. There are so many. And I'm a big believer in "league". I hate to say it but it exists more visibly in the diaspora. Especially in NYC where desiness is abundunt, hot and rich. I won't go above and beyond my league simply because I don't think I would measure up and won't be able to play in it. I once dated a Managing Director at Neuberger Berman and this man had a $8 million penthouse on the upper east side. Trust me it came with so much additional requirements and baggage I knew after the first date I didnt measure up. He was a really nice guy but I was way below his league and by league I don't mean rich or hot, it's just the place and point in life.

I see nice average guys go to parties stand around and try to get the attention of and chase after the hottest chick in the room that won't even spit their way when there are tons of other nice girls standing around. They leave with no hot chick and no phone number and think women have a problem with them when all they've done is failed to recognize all the ones that don't have a problem with them. It's a vicious cycle. It's a two way street. Seen it happen the other way around too.

Chick Pea, somewhere out there is a rockstar waiting for you. I think you may need a new guitar…

awww miss CR i have missed you terribly..
new guitar ;)... awww the guitar hero one doesn't work?
:)

i'm so ticked that this topic had to come up TODAY...for me is a horrible/busy clinic day on this end.. i will respond later on to the other comments...

cheers,
the intimidator ;)

it's the BS that they peddle to justify their dating preferences that ticks me off. Mama's boys...

This is a land mine and I'm going to stand on it. It's real. I love a man who's close to his mama because I would expect him to understand my closeness to mine but desi boys (NOT ALL - before everyone jumps down my throat) are mama's boys and that's that. It's something ALL desi women know and it's something we can't do anything about. So one has to just navigate around it. And my definition of mama's boy may be different from yours so I'll tell you my criteria. Two things.

1. Mom seriously influences all major decisions of his life so it would without a doubt influence his choice in a woman and his relationship with her.
2. Mom is #1, never wrong, so she will always take priority over the other woman and this quality will unfortunately get visible about 900% after one gets married

To me mama's boys does not mean he likes his mother, cares and respects her and does things for her and gives her time and attention. Its a fine line.

And yes non brown men generally don't come attached with umbilicial cords.

I had to post late night so I had 90 comments to read in the morning.... great.

But see you are assuming that the measurment is going to make a woman laugh. That is where insecurities come into play. Trust me I have them too but my insecurities get better with age.

Initially I was talking about a different time period, in early 20's. And that point life has not beaten you down and you think that if you play the game right you can avoid the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. After awhile you just find out, you're going to get it no matter what.

I tend to agree with you to an extent about the "league" idea. I look at it more as is this person open to what I bring and am I open to what they bring? If not, we both need to move on. You can be a chamilionarre and be looking for a solid guy who makes 40K, or you can be a person making 40K and need a dude with XYZ characteristic. Its more so about what a person wants and needs in their life than who they are, because by a certain age you're a bit done with the social striving often times and you know what you want. And at the point, no one is going to be able to negotiate you out of it.

But all of this is generalizable to men and women, and not just Desi men and women

Fuerza Dulce:
Of course you have an intimidating personality.
Just your eyelashes alone are enough to batter a guy !
;-)

Bidi,

Don't call BS on Rupa, she's so right! I think there's an age thing here- you just graduated out of college, no? Your dating world is like a bakery of goodies- The rules apply in particular to the "elder" desi gals in the 25+ age range. Sure there are the gold digging desi gals with LV purses that only date the doctors- by the time you reach 25+ they are the ones that are usually on their first marriage to said doctors. It's the remainders gals that I'm referring to - the strong minded, don't take BS, independent women. You'll see- give yourself 5 years.

Men inherently love to "rescue" a woman even if it's from something completely mundane and silly because it makes them feel desired and wanted. It gives them a place to belong in a woman's life.

I see the same old hackneyed clichés have already gotten a hold on the minds of the SM "intelligentsia"...

Its more so about what a person wants and needs in their life than who they are, because by a certain age you're a bit done with the social striving often times and you know what you want. And at the point, no one is going to be able to negotiate you out of it

Yup right on. Reality needs to kick in at some point. We all realize what we are worth and what is worth our while.

Don't call BS on Rupa, she's so right!

She is so not right. Where is this coming from that Desi men have the intimadation gene?

I'm perplexed

The problem I have isn't with the "measuring" the problem is the 'playa' potential so many upwardly mobile desi boys in NYC seem to have.

I can see that happening, JOAT...I want to go to NYC after I graduate (in a year, I hope), and this is precisely one of the reasons. I want to be an upwardly mobile desi playa. Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "playa", but I do want to date (and sleep with) and be in relationships with many different women in general for a while without worrying about committment issues.

What's really wrong with that? Just coz I'm desi, why am I expected to be all about marriage & Long-term and sh*t? I want to have exactly as much fun and pain as the next (white) dude. Why is it always ok for them to 'sow their wild oats' and not ok for us?

BTW, in order to encourage more information sharing - I am 27, male, single and straight, and a 1-gen been in the US for 6 years in Houston, TX.

Yup right on. Reality needs to kick in at some point. We all realize what we are worth and what is worth our while.

Word. We are worth, its all about someone else not being a butthead and realizing it.

It's important to understand WHY you want to date a desi girl/guy. Let's say you want someone who respects your parents, wants your children to learn Hindi/Gujarati/whatever, doesn't run away from Indian food...I dated a 'brown' guy who didn't have any of the above 'desirables', and am now with a 'white' guy who does.

Sahej,

I know you are a desi male so you think you are not intimidated- But have you DATED a desi male? They are SOOOO intimidated!

Fuerza Dulce: Of course you have an intimidating personality. Just your eyelashes alone are enough to batter a guy ! ;-)

Why, PJ, I do declare...

but I do want to date (and sleep with) and be in relationships with many different women in general for a while without worrying about committment issues.

You will be right at home in NYC.

What's really wrong with that? Just coz I'm desi, why am I expected to be all about marriage & Long-term and sh*t? I want to have exactly as much fun and pain as the next (white) dude. Why is it always ok for them to 'sow their wild oats' and not ok for us?

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. A playa isn't someone sleeping around and living life casually. A playa is someone who misleads women into think he is not and thinking he is sincere with every woman he meets and strings along.

Taz,

Intimidated by what? And moreso than any other man would be? I will agree with you in general a lot of men are put off by strongly opinionated women. Part of it is, most men do not have the verbal capacity to go toe to toe with women, nor the emotional reserve, particularly in their 20s.

Unless you have had some inside information only you're privy to, I don't see this as a Desi male problem specifically.

Ven's cynical rules of desi dating

a) Cute
b) Bright
c) Sweet

you can get 1. 2 if you're lucky. but all of the above is devilishly difficult.

The bright ones complain that men are intimidated by their brightness. That chip on the shoulder isn't very sweet. And, often, it's b/c the particular men they liked didn't find 'em very cute. But you can never admit that.

The cute ones - esp. if cute from an early age - don't take the time to work on their brains. And, if they've got men kowtowing to their every whim, often aren't sweet. For what it's worth, it seems that desi's (men and women) are like fine wines, the grapes need to be tortured a bit (e.g. go through awkward teen years ; grow in rocky soils) to become complex and interesting.

The sweet ones - oh... if only sweet were enough. The Tragedy.

And yes non brown men generally don't come attached with umbilicial cords.

This is exactly the BS I was talking about. Date/marry whoever you want to. I don't give a rats arse why do you always justify your decision with all this make-believe.

I will agree with you in general a lot of men are put off by strongly opinionated women.

Well isnt that intimidation? I have a simple requirement off the men I date. You better not wither in my presence and you better be able to keep up with the verbal repartee. And there are men that do meet those requirement but boy there are those that don't.

A woman who has opinions is assumed by many desi boys to be someone "difficult", "uncompromising", "a liability" and it boils down to "well I cant take her home to mama with that mouth". And if it smells like intimidation and looks like intimidation it must be.

The cute ones - esp. if cute from an early age - don't take the time to work on their brains. And, if they've got men kowtowing to their every whim, often aren't sweet. For what it's worth, it seems that desi's (men and women) are like fine wines, the grapes need to be tortured a bit (e.g. go through awkward teen years ; grow in rocky soils) to become complex and interesting.

The sweet ones - oh... if only sweet were enough. The Tragedy

Looks like a good plan to me Ven :-)

This is exactly the BS I was talking about. Date/marry whoever you want to. I don't give a rats arse why do you always justify your decision with all this make-believe.

Sorry don't know how to sugarcoat it. It isn't justification to date anyone else because I don't. If I dated someone the last thing I would do is justify it to anyone. I'm not alone unfortunately in my thought process. Despite it I still love brown men and think there are still some that don't come attached to their moms.

Ask the women for whom marriages and relationships have fallen apart because of the attachment. I don't know how young or old you are but I've lost count of them. Go to your average generic Indian message board on the web and read some of the MIL woes...a vast majority of them stem from the man not being able to define his relationship with his wife from his mother and it's possible its a Asian thing but it certainly ain't a western thing.

Boy - those are a mountain of issues up the sleeve with deal with. Just toss good ol' romance out of the window, eh?

A woman who has opinions is assumed by many desi boys to be someone "difficult", "uncompromising", "a liability" and it boils down to "well I cant take her home to mama with that mouth".

and if this same woman with opinions was dating a white boy-he wouldn't have any problems with her shooting her mouth off in front of his parents? Yeah I can see that happening.

Well isnt that intimidation? I have a simple requirement off the men I date. You better not wither in my presence and you better be able to keep up with the verbal repartee. And there are men that do meet those requirement but boy there are those that don't.

That is what I would call acceptable intimidation. Unacceptable intimidation is that a person is threatened by someone with a healthy career and goals and a social outlook in which they expect to be treated with respect. If a Desi person is with a non-Desi , should he or she expect his or her partner to respect his or her belief that Indian people deserve equal treatment in society?

It is a fact that men need to learn how to communicate, and most learn this at a later age. Your poets and artists learn earlier, your Doctors and Engineers often learn later. Until you learn how to communicate, its not an easy task to converse on a deep level with a woman in a serious relationship. Instead guys get by with sex and doing various odds and ends, or whatever. So yes, it is intimidating to be talking to someone who is able to articulate important values and all that stuff when you yourself are just trying not to fuck up. And this is a fact of life. To me that is different than being intimidated by someone who expects equal treatment in a relationship.

And none of this has much to do with being Desi.

"What do ABD girls think about dating FOB guys. I got the "How dare you ask me out" look from her. NOT cool."

Hey, I'm an ABD girl married to a LT-FOB and there are lots of other couples like us. The FOB's of today are not like our parents generation - much more cosmopolitan! My IL's in India are much more cooler than the desis living in the US for 30 yrs.

The best part is that the FOB male cut the cord himself when he left India. :-) Having been living alone for years, they're independent.

If you think about it, due to the traditional upbringing in the US, some ABD girls are more "Indian" than the ones in India now (e.g., know how to roll a roti while desi girls had the bai cook).

Yeah, I would've (and have!) turned down FOB guys in the past. Didn't even want to meet my husband! (expected a total coconut oiled, mustachioed geek) But friends said to keep my options open.

So, that's my msg to my ABD sistas -- keep your options open and give the FOB a chance :-)

disclaimer: Do not go to India to marry one. Make sure he came here on his own!

I am just not going to get any work done today at all……I am all for women empowerment, I grew up with enough racism to give me serious problems for life, add the fact that I am female and you would imagine that I would need therapy. However I have never had problems with dating because I don’t forget the fact that I am an INDIAN WOMAN! I have culture, I am educated, I can cook and if I want I can impress your parents. I consent to playing certain roles at certain times in exchange you do the same. I will wear a sari to meet your grandmother, cook for your friends at superbowl, never question you in front of your parents and laugh at your jokes. You in turn will respect me, don’t let your parents and friends diss me, let me be on top and always remember I am not your mum.

I once went to church with a Catholic friend and the priest said something so prolific, he said: God created Eve not from a bone from Adam’s hand so he could hit her, not from his foot so he can trod on her but a bone from his ribs, so she can stand next to him.

Words to live by people, regardless of your religion. Janeofalltrades, I do believe it is the opposite sex that makes players into players. Some girl threw a bitchfest and messed him up for life, and you will catch more bees with honey than vinegar, or just smell all the flowers till you find your hunny. Wow a cheese fest……

If they're in their 20's, they might not have much going for them other than an apartment bought by their parents and the ability to study really hard. Thats not going to make a dude confident about ...

Sahej, you described me to a T. Nevertheless, my wife's family accepted me. My mother-in-law advised my wife as follows: "It will take this boy years to make enough money to buy a car on his own money or to buy a house on his own money. But it will happen." I guess they were investing in me.

As things have turned out, I have gained self-confidence because I have survived several crises. As to that car and house, I am in a fairly hot sector of the economy. So I am making good money even though I am a low-level employee.

Cinnamon Rani you the best.

Hey, I'm an ABD girl married to a LT-FOB and there are lots of other couples like us. The FOB's of today are not like our parents generation - much more cosmopolitan! My IL's in India are much more cooler than the desis living in the US for 30 yrs.

Now now now. This can't be for real. They burn women there for dowry. Snake charmers walk the streets and farm animals live in peoples' living rooms. Where's Pardesi Gori. She'll tell ya.

and if this same woman with opinions was dating a white boy-he wouldn't have any problems with her shooting her mouth off in front of his parents? Yeah I can see that happening.

Non brown men don't have the "demure desi girl" (and they are real because a lot of my cousins are like that, don't speak up when not spoken to, super sweet, good Indian girls etc) illusion that desi boys have. They don't see the opinionated woman as any kind of a liability. And more importantly they don't measure her liability factor ratio towards meeting mom and don't think that far ahead and allow preconcieved notions to taint the existing relationship.

It is a fact that men need to learn how to communicate, and most learn this at a later age. Your poets and artists learn earlier, your Doctors and Engineers often learn later. Until you learn how to communicate, its not an easy task to converse on a deep level with a woman in a serious relationship. Instead guys get by with sex and doing various odds and ends, or whatever. So yes, it is intimidating to be talking to someone who is able to articulate important values and all that stuff when you yourself are just trying not to fuck up. And this is a fact of life. To me that is different than being intimidated by someone who expects equal treatment in a relationship.

You seem to have the magic formula figured out. Can you now spread some love to the other brown brothers? :-)

And let me describe brown baggage...excerpts from a bad date...

Man: "Why don't you have another drink?"
Woman: “I’ve already had one, maybe later after dinner, I don’t want to get drunk.”
Man: “You don’t have to try to be a good Indian girl around me, be yourself, get drunk if you have to.”
----------------------------------------------
Man: “Want to try some of my steak?”
Woman: “Sorry I don’t eat red meat?”
Man: “Why not? You are eating chicken?”
Woman: “I just don’t really eat red meat, just chicken occasionally otherwise prefer vegetarian food.”
Man: “I don’t understand, what kind of rule is that, you eat meat but you won’t eat all meats? Is this some kind of religions thing? I’ve never heard that before.

Janeofalltrades

I'm not trying to be funny, but why exactly were those conversations in post 120 loaded with such objectionable attitudes? That just sounds like flirtatious banter to me, playing with assumptions, that kind of thing.

Anyway, you know I spoke to a white English lady once who said semi-jokingly that her ambition was to marry her daughters off to 'nice Indian boys' because they have such a good attitude and are all so polite and respectful of family and everything. I also knew a Punjabi girl I went to University with who married a white guy who wanted her to play the role of submissive Indian wife (even telling her to wear saris and bindis for him when they went out together because he 'liked showing her off' - they are now divorced)

So you know everyone has to deal with these assumptions and stereotypes. Saying that all white guys/girls don't see a certain thing and have preconceived notions of Indian girls/boys when they meet is untenable. Some of them do. Just as some desi boys/girls have their own baggage when they meet each other.

I think there's an age thing here- you just graduated out of college, no? Your dating world is like a bakery of goodies- The rules apply in particular to the "elder" desi gals in the 25+ age range. Sure there are the gold digging desi gals with LV purses that only date the doctors- by the time you reach 25+ they are the ones that are usually on their first marriage to said doctors. It's the remainders gals that I'm referring to - the strong minded, don't take BS, independent women. You'll see- give yourself 5 years.

Women mature faster than men do. The 21-25/26 age range is where most men (and many women) will really figure out who they are, what they want, what they actually like/dislike.

College is a fantasy land where expectations are skewed, you're surrounded by people your own age in proportions you'll generally never experience, especially if you went to a large land grant school.

Desi men, at some level, were at a disadvantage. Elder brothers and good fathers are critical in helping build confidence and mentoring. How do immigrant fathers who never played by the rules of an American landscape, mentor their sons in what to expect? Some parents may get the gist, but there is a gap in how information flows. This does NOT mean that desi second generation men won't figure it out, but there is a learning curve involved. Confidence when built up transcends dating. It flows into all aspects of one's life. Once men figure out what they want and each gender's expecations align with reality of their needs, is it all that different for desis vs rest of the world?

Hating on desi men is easy to do. They're intimidated, they're so lame, so uncool, etc., but the same can be flipped around from a guy's perspective on desi women - they're stuck up, they have wild expectations, they act like daddy's little princesses, etc.

Patience is a virtue of the wise, don't hate the players, hate the game.

playing with assumptions

Well that's desi baggage though. Brown people assume they have authority over something brown and it comes out badly at times. My friend never expected her wish to not drink more to turn into bytchslap at the "good Indian girl". That's baggage and insecurity talking.

I'm not denying the fact that we all have baggage, but the baggage can be unmanageable when you are younger when it's two brownz and it comes from a lot of factors. Usually people learn to deal with this as they get older. I know I certainly have.

chick pea,

did you read my connection between basketball and diwali.. where the heck is my draft tip ;)?

Oh, doh. Take Josh Smith in the 2nd half of the 2nd round.

GujuDude,

Women mature faster than men do. The 21-25/26 age range is where most men (and many women) will really figure out who they are, what they want, what they actually like/dislike.

I'd say its a 10 year difference. Birds are 10 years ahead of us and are waiting till we get half a clue and tidy ourselves up a bit.

it's always funny to think about this issue-- being a now-25yr old american-born kannada (K-DIGZ!!) girl with (one) of my degrees from harvard-- it poses a slight issue for them desi boys, and boys in general. i totally feel you, Rupa!! desi boys, while a good species overall, get really confused by outgoing desi girls. I work with gang-affiliated, abused, crime-committing children in cities with escalating murder rates-- not so desi-boy friendly, according to the amma and appa. i play competitive outdoor soccer for a co-ed rec team and desi boys stare at me in utter confusion-- didn't they all see bend it like beckham??? i sing and perform carnatic music and jazz-- again, total blank looks from desis.

i've dated a few desis with mixed results-- i try not to judge all of my desi brothers by my not-so-good experiences.

i ultimately hope to be with a desi guy in the end for a variety of reasons-- mostly involving a tacit understanding of why the temple is an important place during Navaratri. or maybe i want to be with a desi because i don't want to constantly explain myself to a person's family. or maybe i just hope that they would 'get' where i come from and why i can't just reject a culture that i love so much.

desi girls, stand up and be proud!! use that golden voice that you are so lucky to have. brown is beautiful and that's the truth.

I've got very little to add to this conversation as far as "do's and dont's" but it has just been my experience that meeting and dating desi women is far easier for me now (as a 30 year old), than it was 5 years ago. I chalk it up to general maturity on both sides. I think all the "dishing" that Sex and the City made so popular is 90% nonsense. I mean really, if two people interact as mature adults, and treat each other with the appropriate respect, there's really no need to come up with a list of dating "rules." If you leave the facade at home, the other person will see you as who you are and will be either interested or disinterested. If there is interest, great, if there isn't, move on. It's that simple. I also try not to come to any conclusions regarding the person after the first date. First dates are awkward at best and you can't see all there is to see in a person in one hour over a cup of coffee.

Now if I may go off on a bit of a rant. There is one thing that is slightly un-related to the post that drives me nuts and is applicable to all, regardless of race or gender. I really can't stand it when I go out to a woman and decide to call later and, rather than saying she's not interested, she simply ignores the phone call and never returns it. To all people who do that, grow a spine. If you're not interested, say so. Believe me, chances are you are not all that, you did after all decide to go out with me in the first place. The other person will recover you come off just looking like a wuss.

Well that's desi baggage though. Brown people assume they have authority over something brown and it comes out badly at times. My friend never expected her wish to not drink more to turn into bytchslap at the "good Indian girl". That's baggage and insecurity talking.

I don't know, personally I thought it was quite a funny line, I've been in situations where I said something like that, and it was playful and defused tension. I suppose it depends on who you're talking to, and if they say it was a cheeky smile or not :-D

Non brown men don't have the "demure desi girl" (and they are real because a lot of my cousins are like that, don't speak up when not spoken to, super sweet, good Indian girls etc) illusion that desi boys have. They don't see the opinionated woman as any kind of a liability. And more importantly they don't measure her liability factor ratio towards meeting mom and don't think that far ahead and allow preconcieved notions to taint the existing relationship.

Whoa whoa whoa, I'll concede your last point. but non-brown, in particular white men do indeed have a preconceived idea of what an Indian or desi girl is and should be as well. Much of it is exoticization, but a lot of it is the idea they are passive as well.

"I know you are a desi male so you think you are not intimidated- But have you DATED a desi male? They are SOOOO intimidated"

Real world examples please...

Dating in the USA is a whole different ball game from India.
Its hard to generalize things, but if you are interested in someting more casual, please do not chase Indian girls: ABCD or FOB. Its gonna take way too long (if ever) and not before some extraction of committment. The funny thing is I know Indian girls can be as slutty as anyone else , but just not with Indian guys apprently. I'm pretty sick of hearing how easily they give it up to my non desi friends. We are much better off chasing non desis.

Another problem at all these desi gatherings is that of all the desi chicks there, there will be like just 2 hot ones, who get waaay too much attention and hence always have this huge bitch shield on. Good luck trying to get their number guys.

I am straight up FOB, but have had more success with ABCD girls than FOB, mainly because ABCD girls know how to flirt. WIth FOB girls, I am genuinely scared to flirt / act playfully physical as they get scared off way too easy. Oh yeah with ABCD girls, please get *switch* to your American accent (you know what I'm talking out FOB guys)

My fellow FOBs, a gentleman gets nowhere in the US. Its a dog eat dog world, and the only way to get play here is to be shamelessly aggressive. Bury that Mr Nice guy and bring him back out when you are going back home to get engaged to a nice girl from India that you have never met.

Uhhh I went to Rutgers- there were plenty of slutty ABCD *and* FOB girls who gave it up to the Desi boys just as much as the non-Desi ones...

Oh and I was trying to be good at the office today. 27 MBF in the house. These stereotypes are silly. I never dated a desi (call it rebellion against the 'rents) until hubby(an amazing blend of East meets West). I think most women want to be with a man that has income potential. Obviously it's not the be all end all but hells yeah it's a factor in a host of factors. Date a jerk who has money -- no (obviously). In my experience, my desi husband knew from day one I was an opionated, empowered woman and I would say is what attracted him to me. I put all my cards out there when we met.. and honestly didn't approach dating him any different the my tactics used on non-desi men:)

That's baggage and insecurity talking.

And experience, I daresay

Oooohhhh...Who doesn't love a good discussion of heteronormative diaspora stereotypes about gender from our minority communities to justify why we aren't getting any action???

I know I do.

From my experience, with the gals I run with, we are definitely all about equal opportunity. I think it's important to be authentic and that shouldn't change whether you date a desi or a non-desi.

is there any credence to the belief that Indian girls are more willing to "give it up" (casual sexual encounter) to a white or black guy than a brown one?

There's the issue of reputation and gossip. If you have casual sex with a desi guy, everybody knows (and you're judged for it). If you have casual sex with an outsider, you don't get judged, and you don't have to worry about getting a "soiled reputation" for being easy.

I see a couple issues with brown on brown dating:
1) Before it even begins, it's more serious than it should be bc in the back of your mind, you're thinking, maybe I could end up with this person and it wouldn't make my parents cringe. Normal ppl don't think this way - or at least I never did when I was dating non-desi.
2) There are much higher expectations for someone brown... example: attractive, intelligent desi woman I know with Ph.D. will date someone white who is unattractive, overweight, etc, with lower level degree bc they get along great or have a lot in common. If she met the brown version of that man, she would immediately internalize it..."I'm so cute/have high level degree - I should be with someone equally attractive/accomplished." Point is, a lot of us see biodatas when we meet potential desi partners, bc we are conditioned to size ourselves up according to community standards.

I've noticed a lot of brown men won't date desi until they are ready to settle down... I think one thing that makes brown vs brown dating less awkward is if both sides are relaxed and don't have high expectations of what's to come...

If you have casual sex with an outsider, you don't get judged, and you don't have to worry about getting a "soiled reputation" for being easy.

Or simply don't sleep with a guy that's a gossipping-machine.

Or simply don't sleep with a guy that's a gossipping-machine.

i.e. one who isn't desi ;)

There's the issue of reputation and gossip. If you have casual sex with a desi guy, everybody knows (and you're judged for it). If you have casual sex with an outsider, you don't get judged, and you don't have to worry about getting a "soiled reputation" for being easy.

Yes this is a factor. My friends have definitely said the same thing .Desi cricles in most cities seem to be small and you end up rolling with the same ol people at NetIP or desi parties etc. Everone will find out eventually if you sleep with someone in the circle. Better to pick up some random non desi at a bar innit?

DesiDawg:

Now now now. This can't be for real. They burn women there for dowry. Snake charmers walk the streets and farm animals live in peoples' living rooms. Where's Pardesi Gori. She'll tell ya.

DesiDawg, I'm lovin' you today.

It's not like there is this invisible network where all Indian people in America are connected (despite what many on here seem to think.)

We're a lot more connected to each other than we are to random non-desis. You'd be surprised, it's like 2-3 degrees of separation for white collar desis in America, especially those who went to a top 30 college.

I've noticed a lot of brown men won't date desi until they are ready to settle down... I think one thing that makes brown vs brown dating less awkward is if both sides are relaxed and don't have high expectations of what's to come...

That makes sense from a logistical standpoint too, though. There are fewer desis around us, so if you're not serious, why make all the effort to find one. When you're just having fun, you don't care if the guy is a Gujju of similar background. However, when you want to settle down, you do think more about how important cultural similarity is.

Or simply don't sleep with a guy that's a gossipping-machine.

Like as if that matters. people desi or non-desi talk anyways.

Are there any drop-dead gorgeous Indian girls commenting here? Lets face it, you're who the guys here want to leant about.

Yes this is a factor. My friends have definitely said the same thing .Desi cricles in most cities seem to be small and you end up rolling with the same ol people at NetIP or desi parties etc. Everone will find out eventually if you sleep with someone in the circle. Better to pick up some random non desi at a bar innit?

Or they've hooked up with one of your friends already, which can just be kind of eeeeuuw the next time you see them in the locker room (your friend, that is).

It's even worse on college campuses. Everybody knows who is with whom, even if it involved a lot of sneaking around.

It's incestuous.

Phew...I love this post, but can't seem to get through all the comments.

I am an ABCD chick who is now engaged (happily) to a FOB. :-) His sincerity, lack of assholeness is great, hehe.

But I agree about the dominant female thing...we are both punjabi, and my parents CONSTANTLY tell me that if we have any problems, it's because I am too assertive. (I'm an attorney what do u expect). *BLAH*

This is one evergreen threadmarker of a topic Taz :) include women who are born and brought up in India and work here in ur discussion :) they also face the same music!!

This falls more into what our own garbanzobean has been talking about (and my own brothers agree with me): desi guys are intimidated by a woman who's successful in her career and has a strong opinion (GOD FORBID). (Prove me wrong guys! PROVE ME WRONG! And not in a gold-digging way because that's gross.) True to a large extenet Rupa, for both ABDs and India born desis-but i am hopeful that not all desi men are like that. I am an India-born and brought up girl and been here in the US for few years, working as a scientist in best of Medical Schools in US and i have faced this situation with marriage proposals ;) most desi men (or their parents) were looking for a coy, fair, tall, smart bride who goes for "work-life balance", but the message being put across is that you are expected to be a good house-wife and also work to make money. and in all likelihood u are gonna be the one making supper everynight and taking care of the babies. given the limited interest i have in dating/marriage, i generally have a good laugh. but it often makes me think, WHY this one-sided expectation :))

and a majority of ABD guys i personally know have gone ahead and married girls born and brought up in India-can anyone explain this trend.

Bidi, you suggest that most women look for $$$, am not sure if thats true for all desi women. and you also suggest
With 1st-gen guys, I could see it, if they are from a region that is unfamiliar with dating, courtship etc., but even now among my people my age in India (granted mostly in Bangalore, Chennai and Madras) those guys are just as forward when it comes to dating as people I know in the U.S.
why only these two cities (Bro, Chennai and Madras are the same)?? what about other parts of India-is it because you have visited only these cities. I have spent six good years in Indian Insititute of Science,Bangalore, so i know a bit about how educated guys in Bangalore think-both guys who are originally from Karnataka and the guys who move there for work :). I have a bit disagreement on this point with you:)

#91 is one of the most ignorant posts I ve ever come across.

Your generalization about brown brothers is disgusting.
The respect Indian men have for their mothers is admirable. What exactly are you complaining about here? Would you be OK with a guy demanding more respect , love than you have for your father?
They are two different things, love for your spouse & love for your parents.
On the contrary, the 'mama's boy' tag should be a USP! But desi sistas here in America are too 'empowered' to understand this, maybe when fairest of the fair sex recognises & acknowledges it, the desi ladies will begin lining up for the mama's boys.

a majority of ABD guys i personally know have gone ahead and married girls born and brought up in India-can anyone explain this trend.

i know a TON of them as well miss musical.... desi boy docs do this all the time..one of them told me.. (don't kill the messenger)..'i don't need opinions or brains..i just need beauty'...

dammit.. i could go on and on..but have to run.. cheers and happy diwali to all..

i just wrote a very long post that got lost. sigh. this is either a sign that talking about desi dating is too difficult, or that the SM gods were working for you people in order to prevent you from having to read an enormous, self-indulgent post by yours truly :)

It's not like there is this invisible network where all Indian people in America are connected

You can't be serious in even attempting to deny its existence.

I really can't stand it when I go out to a woman and decide to call later and, rather than saying she's not interested, she simply ignores the phone call and never returns it. To all people who do that, grow a spine. If you're not interested, say so. Believe me, chances are you are not all that, you did after all decide to go out with me in the first place. The other person will recover you come off just looking like a wuss.

I'm with you on that. I wish more people were open and honest so as not to lead someone on and leave them hanging. But I have to be honest, honestly sometimes backfires. Telling someone you don't jive sometimes brings out the worst in people. It's hurtful I suppose being rejected but sometimes people get disgruntled over it and it can backfire.

My peeve is with text messaging and email. Do it like a man to my face. I'm a big girl. I can handle it. Can you? :-)

And experience, I daresay...

But still baggage. Baggage that has nothing to do with the current date and baggage the current date did not create and should not be subject to. But so be it.

It's not like there is this invisible network where all Indian people in America are connected (despite what many on here seem to think.)

Wait you mean you don't know there is? After 20 years in NYC and being fairly social and visible thru writing I am convinced that every brown person I meet is connected by 1 or 2 degrees. I have lost track of how many times I've met people and you are connected somehow. Yeah I know sounds convuluted but it's real. Every desi around here is connected somehow.

#91 is one of the most ignorant posts I ve ever come across. Your generalization about brown brothers is disgusting. The respect Indian men have for their mothers is admirable. What exactly are you complaining about here? Would you be OK with a guy demanding more respect , love than you have for your father?

Perhaps you forgot to read the rest of the post (...To me mama's boys does not mean he likes his mother, cares and respects her and does things for her and gives her time and attention. Its a fine line...) or the whole thread? I'll excuse you for that.

a majority of ABD guys i personally know have gone ahead and married girls born and brought up in India-can anyone explain this trend.

I see this as well infact quite a few of my friends have done that. There were a myriad of reasons given for doing this. But it pretty much boils down to wanting someone that will "blend well" with their life rather then them having to make too many adjustments. And the implicit assumption that a girl from India is good Indian girl that will adjust to his family and not talk back and have too many of her own strong opinions.

23/m/london ......; )

So how about some advice ladies to help us desi bruthas out. What is the sure-fire way to approach a desi girl without causing offence of some description?. From the above I understand that we can't talk about hobbies, what we do or be just be plain nice?

study to become an astronaut

a majority of ABD guys i personally know have gone ahead and married girls born and brought up in India-can anyone explain this trend.

Or being told by your married female friends at 30 that they know no unmarried desi femails, so you should start looking for broads abroad.

you define a line and then cross more fine lines with your assumptions.

Obviously you ve been burnt. But your 'whiteys more women empowering than brown bros' is way outta line. Any generalizations you make have to be backed up with statistical data.
How many desi-white interracial couples do you know?
What kind of experiences do they share, if any.
How come Indra Nooyi- Pepsico's CEO has an Indian husband? Can a woman be president in America?

If you say you arent generalizin about all Indian men, then you are talkin about exceptions & exceptions happen with every race.
Dont be hatin.

what we do or be just be plain nice?

Yup that's it really. This is what I have always been told and this is something that always works. Disregard all the rules and games anyone has ever talked about. If being yourself, being honest and being sincere doesn't work then the person you are working for isn't worth it. Time to move on and onto someone that will jive with you and appreciate those things.

This protocol business is too sophisticated for it's own good.
Following protocol seems daft when you actually like the other
person, and breaking the protocol subjects you, and the other
person, to second guessing (what a great way to start.)

I propose that second guessing be abolished
(see -- it works, the couple in the video would have gotten their coffee.)

No von Mises
what my hobbies were (i mean really? do people discuss hobbies anymore?
What? Why not? Is it more suave to just "read" potential hobbies as the convo goes along? Am I not reading signals as I should if I ask? Am I uncool? Help.

Yeah i agree talking hobbies can make good conversation but this guy i was referring to expected me to list out a number of things, maybe he was hoping to hear gourmet cooking in the list, instead of doing that i was more interested in discussing the sport. Anyway i think you would have phrased it much better.

But I have to be honest, honestly sometimes backfires. Telling someone you don't jive sometimes brings out the worst in people. It's hurtful I suppose being rejected but sometimes people get disgruntled over it and it can backfire.

Tell me about it. You boys are scary to reject...

HMF- all you gotta do is add those delicious desi babes to your blog reader and you'll have more than enough proof of dating desi from the women perspective. Rupa's speed dating blog is the best example "intimidating women" off the top of my head.

So why aren't you guys together anymore?

The FOB guys rules to dating ABCD chicks.

1.Gel and spike your hair. This is a freakin must.Those spikes should be lethal weapons.
2.No facial hair please. Goatee acceptable but no moustache.
2.Lose the accent.Either go totally American or even better faux Brit south Bombay .
3.Brush up on your Bollywood. ABCD chicks are totally into that shit. Hide your punk rock and hip hop CDs and get into Himesh.
4.Pretend to be really into Indian culture and traditions.
5.Taking a summer course counts as studying at an Ivy league institute. Harvard works best, but don't go lower than Cornell.

I guess I'll try to make up for the lost post in small increments :) Unfortunately, it won't be nearly as articulate as last time!

JoAT said: "And yes non brown men generally don't come attached with umbilicial cords."

And neither does this brown girl!! I love my mama, and I dare any desi guy to prove that his umbilical cord is stronger. All jokes aside, I think my relationship with my mom/family is likely the reason that my relationships with desi guys do occur at a much, much slower pace.

I have openly dated non-desi guys in the past, and my parents have generally been supportive. However, the support occurs like this: "OK, go ahead, we won't throw a fit or make life difficult. You can do it on your own terms and we'll learn to accept it." They don't know the guys very well, they don't feel that they can talk openly with them, etc. I think they sort of assume the worst is happening if I'm with a white guy, but they definitely have different standards about how things should progress with a desi guy. I haven't completely adopted those standards, but I think I follow them in order to make life less difficult for all of us down the line. If I were to date a desi guy, the game changes. No longer is there a sort of distant acceptance of the thing. I assume that if I marry a desi guy, he will really become a party of my wonderful family (and I, his). I won't be off on some island with my white husband who tries but can't really communicate with my family. I would move slower with a desi guy, for a lot of reasons. One, I wouldn't want any extreme improprieties to become fodder for any family gossip later on. If I were with a non-desi guy, I'd be automatically off the hook there. Second, I guess I do believe that a marriage ideally is not just between husband and wife but to some extent, between two families. (As I type that, I wonder if I'm crazy and I welcome challenges to that). I see myself taking things slower, really feeling things out with a desi guy, because if things don't work out, it will not only be a loss to me but also to my family. With a white guy, if it doesn't work out, I'll be the sole owner of that loss (or mistake, as it has been).

Having said that, I've given it up in equal measure to desi and non-desi guys; just would think twice at this age with someone who has actual relationship potential.

Harvard works best, but don't go lower than Cornell.

I guess I am in the game.

I am so happy today. You rules have some kernel of truth though.

No, really, does someone actually list some rules a nice ABCD boy needs to follow to date a nice desi girl in NYC? *runs and gets notepad*

I kind of wish I could take back my previous post, as I really haven't spent enough time sorting through that stuff. I've never really put all of that in writing, so hopefully some of you will help me figure out if I need to rethink things. :)

don't go lower than Cornell.

...i.e. no U Penn Tufts.

This talk of Desi men being intimidated is so off;

Let's play a game; Woman, good looking, keeps herself fit, plays rec league soccer, has a good career, sings jazz music, speaks 3 languages, has a nice car and a nice place of her own. Has a ivy league education and two of her siblings are professionals, while the other works at a non-profit and spends most of his time overseas.

Ok, you tell me, how many joe schmoe, I work from 9-5, I have a decent sense of humor and I know who Miles Davis is, is going to work up the gumption to holler at this lady?

The way dating usually works, not that I am an expert, in fact an anti-expert is; if you like a dude you in some way make it possible for him to approach you. We are not fooled into knowing we sweep you off your feet. We all know we're being led to believe we're making the choice when in reality 90% of the time we're not in control to the extent we think. If you want to date a Desi guy; be approachable and nice. It will work and you'll find an even percentage of Desi versus non Desi men will be intimidated.

FOB_playa:

what sort of girl does your list attract? Somehow I have a hard time believe that someone following that list would catch the eye of the girls posting on this thread for even a second.

Second, I guess I do believe that a marriage ideally is not just between husband and wife but to some extent, between two families. (As I type that, I wonder if I'm crazy and I welcome challenges to that

I concur with you.

I am so happy today. You rules have some kernel of truth though.

Not you KT not you! **sigh**

No, really, does someone actually list some rules a nice ABCD boy needs to follow to date a nice desi girl in NYC? *runs and gets notepad*

Lord there are NO rules. Be who you are, don't lie, don't be deceptive. No games. If you like her, make it known. Be respectful of who she is. Why would you want to win someone by manipulating her? At some point your true colors will come out won't they? Then what?

HMF- all you gotta do is add those delicious desi babes to your blog reader and you'll have more than enough proof of dating desi from the women perspective. Rupa's speed dating blog is the best example "intimidating women" off the top of my head.

She went to the speed dating thing while she had a boyfriend unless I'm wrong. Who lived in another country for 14 years, speaks another language fluently, and is in Medical School. You think that was a fair assessement of how willing a Desi man would be to date her? I think its unrealistic to expect to find someone you like when you're iffy in the first place. Really, unless Mr Abhishek Bachcan or something was at this Speed Dating thing, was there anyway a dude was going to have a chance?

I have nothing to add to this discussion, but I did like FOB_playa's Rule #3:

3.Brush up on your Bollywood. ABCD chicks are totally into that shit. Hide your punk rock and hip hop CDs and get into Himesh.

Play on!

Tell me about it. You boys are scary to reject...

Serious!! getting angry is one thing but when they start crying, madre mia!

It's so nasty on one hand you just want too run away and hide because bursting out into laughter is rude on the other hand you can't help but feeling like you have to hug him or something just to make him feel better.

what we do or be just be plain nice?

Yep that and being down to earth, in touch with your innernerd and

NO tears..

it's the worst thing to do to a girl

really

I went to a top 30 school also, so I still dispute the whole "vast Indian gossip network theory".

Uh, Friendster and Myspace. Y'all.

And the implicit assumption that a girl from India is good Indian girl that will adjust to his family and not talk back and have too many of her own strong opinions

This assumption is a BIG mistake. That may be the initial appearance, but going to India because you can get a girl to 'mold' is seriously misguided. If a guy is THAT insecure, it doesn't matter what kind of woman he winds up with, his insecurity will play out to make life not as fruitful as it can be. Sure, a gal from India may adjust in ways a girl from here may not, but assuming that [the guy] won't have to adjust is absolutely stupid. It will happen and in ways you won't expect.

India, Africa, USA, UK, whatever. Find someone kind, smart, and complementary. Find a partner. Find a teammate. Two strong and smart individuals (wherever they come from) makes LIFE more fun and manageable.

I'm one of those dudes that has decided to keep ALL options open. India as well as here. India wound up being the place where I found someone with similar vision of future intellecutal and personal growth, and an equal who complements me (as I her). She is smart, witty, and quite independent minded. She told me stories of how guys did come looking for the 'moldable' girl and she was disgusted by it.

Do ABD women give enough credit to FOB girls who enter relationships with dudes from the United States? For some reason, it seems people look 'down' upon it.

I think some of y'all actually don't have a good opinion of Desi men but you think you need to be with one, and so you pretend you have this great opinion of Desi guys. In reality, your opinion is not very positive and we simply serve as a scapegoat for other emotions.

ovaltine,

Interesting...Dating Desi Rules I would offer the opposite sex? The post was meant for the rules that existed that i wasn't prive to, until the past year...So if I may offer you desi men some dating advice....

1. Ask a girl out on a date. Not, "umm, we should, maybe, like, hang out, like our friends, together." Grow balls, ask. (I think this is an LA thing though- guys here are ridic anti-committal.) And don't ask her out the same day - like Friday at 5pm for that night.

2. Don't be boring. Be witty, sarcastic, think on your toes.

3. Be registered to vote. (seriously, this one of the first thing that I ask.)

4. Read SM/ Be a blogger. (seriously, it's the second thing I ask.)

5. Be secure with your identity as a South Asian Am/Brownz. (I have been on dates with desis that aren't. Those dates have cricket chirping conversations.)

6. Look me in the eyes when talking to me.

7. Don't be in one of those "open relationships."

8. Don't be flakey. Or late.

This assumption is a BIG mistake. That may be the initial appearance, but going to India because you can get a girl to 'mold' is seriously misguided. If a guy is THAT insecure, it doesn't matter what kind of woman he winds up with, his insecurity will play out to make life not as fruitful as it can be. Sure, a gal from India may adjust in ways a girl from here may not, but assuming that [the guy] won't have to adjust is absolutely stupid. It will happen and in ways you won't expect.

That must explain all the 30+ divorced dudes who married a chick from India the first time around that I meet.

Do ABD women give enough credit to FOB girls who enter relationships with dudes from the United States? For some reason, it seems people look 'down' upon it

People should do what makes them happy really. I've seen all kinds of relationships work, long distance, interracial, age difference everything. But I think these relationships were successful because the two people in these relationships respected each other and truly cared and loved. And unfortunately I've seen the two people who were perfect for each other, had perfect supportive families fall out with each other.

One of my closest friend married a girl from India, both families were very supportive. They both tried to make it work but gave up after a few years. They really just couldn't get on the same page with each other. In hindsight he feels that there were too many assumptions about how the marriage was supposed to work, that the foundation they needed, getting to know each other's core values, before marriage was missing.

And frnakly a lot of times a Desi women doesn't even admit to having a white boyfriend right off the top, so you never are quite sure. And being Indian, since "at some point I want to marry Indian" even though right now I am genuinely in love with someone and don't see myself without that person.....they pretend as if there is something real there. And when it doesn't work out? The dude was intimidated. Come on.

This is not about Rupa. I like Rupa's blog a lot and, I would totally date her or someone like her. However, she's got a man and I ain't a catch.

The basic rule of dating, for both men and women, as several people have already stated: Be yourself. If he/she doesn't respond, two things to tell yourself: 1) this wasn't the right person for you and 2) now you'll never have to question, "if only I acted more like myself ... maybe she would have liked me." You have now been rejected because of who you actually are, not because of who you were pretending to be. Take some comfort in that and move on.

I think the problem is that not many people approach a first meeting/dating with hope, patience, or even friendliness. Most of the girls I know are wary (or have a "bitch shield" as someone put it) 10 minutes before they enter a place; most guys I know operate on the assumption that they will have to resort to strange tactics to get on a girl's good side. It is a catch 22, y'all.

I am notorious for being cold; here's the half-joking version of how you get to talk to me, in the real world, not the "be nice and be yourself" world -- 'cause that doesn't work when the shield is up.

1. Take down my defenses. Smile but don't look at me again for awhile. When you smile, try to seem as casual as possible; if you think lust is in your eyes, look away as fast as possible. Basically, don't pay any attention to me.
2. Try not to approach me or speak to me about myself (i.e. what brings you here tonight? You are a good dancer, etc.) We must get in each other's proximity by accident. If you must talk to me, talk about other things (i.e. "man the bartender is really slow tonight.") This will lead me to believe that you have not been obsessing over how to talk to me for the last 15 minutes.
3. Better yet, try to do something funny or charming that will get me to talk to you first. This does not mean dancing strangely, making faces, or repeatedly making eye contact with me.
4. If we talk and I seem disinterested, go away immediately. This may mean I will give you a chance later. If you insist on trying to converse with me, you will have blown it.

But whatevs. Rules be damned. Sometimes you just click, innit?

Every male commenter here should just e-mail one of the female commenters and ask her out. Maybe 1/3 of you will go out on a date and get along and then more people will fall in lub and use my site.

Makes sense to me!

These are some massive generalizations about brown men and women.

I'm a brown man - who, until about a year ago, thought he had impossibly high standards - dating a brown woman - who, until about a year ago, thought she had impossibly high standards - and we're both pretty durned happy.

I would totally date her or someone like her. However, she's got a man

What's her man gotta do with you?

Asl

I was literally brown dating (i.e in view of getting married) right, left and centre (what can i say, my mum was very driven :>) and none of them worked out because they would all play games even the interested or interesting ones. it's all a distant memory now what sort of games, but what i can say about my current partner is that i liked him because he showed enthusiasm from the start, and he called me the very next day. (btw we met at a party and not the going thru the parents way) so I guess from the start there was no pressure to deal with in the first place, but it got the ball rolling. Now after seeing each other for a year plus and now that we are just married that's what i remember about how it got to this, that he was enthusiastic about us and he called the very next day,i was attracted to that quality and in turn it made me want to explore the possibilities.. So if you meet someone that you have a connection with i say maintain the pace, what do you have to lose..

Yes, many want a girl who is successful academically and professionally, but he still needs to be the one who clearly wears the proverbial pants. Again, not all Injun guys are like this - I'm addressing more of the stereotype that a lot of commenters are putting forward. She has to be good, but he has to be better.

I think this can be said for a very sizable population of males of every hue and color

milli,

LOL - that was classic. Stick with milli's rules. ;-)

8. Don't be flakey. Or late.

Aw for f*ck's sake, taz, haven't you ever heard of Indian Standard Time? ;-) I was with you till that last one.

The real issue is that the girls don't think the really hot/smart/smooth desi guys are hollering at them, and the guys don't think that the really hot/hot/hot desi girls are interested in them. Maybe the solution is for both sides to be more forward, and not so judgmental before even talking to someone.

true, but I think the real issue is that we spend way too much time on a computer talking about asking people out instead of emailing men/women we know to see a concert or grab a bite to eat. But maybe I'm just projecting?

1. Take down my defenses. Smile but don't look at me again for awhile. When you smile, try to seem as casual as possible; if you think lust is in your eyes, look away as fast as possible. Basically, don't pay any attention to me. 2. Try not to approach me or speak to me about myself (i.e. what brings you here tonight? You are a good dancer, etc.) We must get in each other's proximity by accident. If you must talk to me, talk about other things (i.e. "man the bartender is really slow tonight.") This will lead me to believe that you have not been obsessing over how to talk to me for the last 15 minutes. 3. Better yet, try to do something funny or charming that will get me to talk to you first. This does not mean dancing strangely, making faces, or repeatedly making eye contact with me. 4. If we talk and I seem disinterested, go away immediately. This may mean I will give you a chance later. If you insist on trying to converse with me, you will have blown it.

That has to be a joke, right?

I give up. This whole thread is not an attempt to converse, its a blame game

:) Milli - those rules are the truth! That would a list very similar to what I had written down a few years back :)) NICE!

I am notorious for being cold; here's the half-joking version of how you get to talk to me, in the real world, not the "be nice and be yourself" world -- 'cause that doesn't work when the shield is up.

1. Take down my defenses. Smile but don't look at me again for awhile. When you smile, try to seem as casual as possible; if you think lust is in your eyes, look away as fast as possible. Basically, don't pay any attention to me.
2. Try not to approach me or speak to me about myself (i.e. what brings you here tonight? You are a good dancer, etc.) We must get in each other's proximity by accident. If you must talk to me, talk about other things (i.e. "man the bartender is really slow tonight.") This will lead me to believe that you have not been obsessing over how to talk to me for the last 15 minutes.
3. Better yet, try to do something funny or charming that will get me to talk to you first. This does not mean dancing strangely, making faces, or repeatedly making eye contact with me.
4. If we talk and I seem disinterested, go away immediately. This may mean I will give you a chance later. If you insist on trying to converse with me, you will have blown it.

LOL. This list is crazy though.A club/ bar is a volume environment. Its a numbers game.Its suicide to plot this much before approaching a girl. By the time you are through jumping through those hoops its closing time and all the ditzy chicks are already cornered. Unless you look like Ash, or enjoy stalkers, a normal guy is unlikely to plan that much especially after being half smashed already.

Milli has been watching way too much bollywood

"Maybe the solution is for both sides to be more forward, and not so judgmental before even talking to someone."

Until that happens then no, I'm not sure those rules re: first encounters are a joke. And I feel confident in saying that many of my girlfriends think the same way. I think the issue is that those "rules" I outlined pertain to a random encounter at a public event, which in my opinion, is really the last place to meet someone.

My bitch shield primarily goes up in clubs, bars, parties because I don't go to those places to meet people -- I go to hang out with friends, dance, have fun. An awkward approach by a stranger tends to interfere with that. It also goes up because 1) if you tell a guy you're not interested at a bar, you're stuck in the same place all evening and 2) in my experience, even after I've expressed a firm lack of interest, the guy insists on trying to chat me up or becomes hyper defensive (i.e. "what, you don't like the way I dance?"). That's just rude, and I'd rather avoid any sort of encounter like that.

Personal note: I tend be be very extroverted and become near paralyzed when I feel my sense of security is threatened. Clearly I need to work on better ways of interacting with people, but until then, bitch shield it is.

Milli you should post it on your blog and I would fwd it all my friends. Funniest stuff on this thread so far ;)
Rest of the guys give her a break. She said its a half-joking version. And Milli don't reveal which half is the joke, that would ruin the fun.

Alas, Ritam, I've only seen 2 Bollywood movies in my entire life.

Sonia I am with you. Hubby from day one showed interest and he wasn't afraid to -- I admired that. I remember the line he used, after our night of hanging out, he called me the very next day and said, "I sincerely hope I didn't monopolize your time yesterday." He returned every phonecall the same day. He returned every email. There were no effing games; therefore, I trusted him.

Side note, nothing pisses me off more than hearing girlfriends bitch b/c their S.O. is so damn busy and important at his job that he can't make time to chat for a bit. Please.. such b-o-l-o-g-n-a. Even when hubby is working on a deal at 3 am, he makes time to call me or im me for a minute, so I know it can be done. **Getting off my soapbox**

It might sound bollywood-ish, but those are the rules of engagement when in a club/bar that isnt too loud. If its your intention to get those girls, stay away from loud places. No one wins there.

I think the trick is to do all that without actually showing that you are jumping the hoops! You only entertain, not become a clown.

I think she has a point.

I love this topic!!! I'm only on #127 and I have so much more to read!! Can't wait to read everyone's thoughts and add a few of my own...as soon as work is over :(
Thanks SM!!!!!
ROck on! :)

Ha, Before I moved to NYC from San Diego, I always thought Bar/Clubs/Etc where places to meet people. Sadly, and ratherly painfully, this is not true... so where is a good place to meet people in a highly urban area?

so where is a good place to meet people in a highly urban area?

Define 'meet'.

Ok fine Milli.

But what if I grabbed the mic at a club and started singing "koi kahe kehta rahe...".....would your bitch shield go down at all.....

1. Ask a girl out on a date. Not, "umm, we should, maybe, like, hang out, like our friends, together." Grow balls, ask. (I think this is an LA thing though- guys here are ridic anti-committal.) And don't ask her out the same day - like Friday at 5pm for that night.

This sentence should be underlined, bolded, and italicized. I was 24 before I realized that getting dates becomes much easier when you actually ask a woman out. My second suggestion is to avoid all the ridiculous eye contact/look away nonsense. If you see a person, go up to them, stick out your hand, and say, "Hi, my name is X, what is your name?" You'd be amazed how well it works. If you get blown off, it's really no big loss.

But what if I grabbed the mic at a club and started singing "koi kahe kehta rahe...".....would your bitch shield go down at all.....

Wouldn't you do better with Blame it on the Rain, given her handle?

Sriram, I agree that the direct approach works and even if you get rejected, better that you didn't dance around the subject. BUT, for me, that works after some sort of connection has been established. I honestly don't want to be approached or asked out solely on the basis of my looks, not at this age.

Ritam, well, your last post made me burst out laughing so yes, I'd say you stand a good chance.

Personally bars and clubs are the worst place to meet people. Guys have their playa shield on and girls have their bitch shield on and no one wins. You come out with the phone number of someone that probably wouldn't interest you more sober and in bright sunshine. And frankly the only people that come out with a phone number are the really hot chicks. Unless you are super hot, have your tits hiked up around your neck and perky guys aren't necessarily looking at you. And lets face it average chicks like me aren't going to score at a bar full of hot chicks.

I have better luck meeting guys in non pick up places....trains, elevators, Art galleries, Movie premieres, Barnes & Noble, Trader Joe's, Starbucks, Home Depot, Loews etc.

Wouldn't you do better with Blame it on the Rain, given her handle?

Hahhahahaha. But which song has more of a chance of being played at the club??

Meet - a magical place where bitch shields don't exist..

Personally bars and clubs are the worst place to meet people. Guys have their playa shield on and girls have their bitch shield on and no one wins. You come out with the phone number of someone that probably wouldn't interest you more sober and in bright sunshine. And frankly the only people that come out with a phone number are the really hot chicks. Unless you are super hot, have your tits hiked up around your neck and perky guys aren't necessarily looking at you. And lets face it average chicks like me aren't going to score at a bar full of hot chicks.

Here, here. Can we have a discussion on SM without assuming we're all super attractive and wildly financially successful? I'm happy and all for all of you and all but still.

Hahhahahaha. But which song has more of a chance of being played at the club??

If you are going to sing it, why care if the club plays it or not? ;-)

has religion ever been a problem for anyone?

Meet - a magical place where bitch shields don't exist..

Its on the corner of Shangri La and El Dorado...

hey Chickpea, so the doc dude cares only abt beauty and thus decides to head east for a wedding-thats a bit confusing, because desi women are equally beautiful all over the globe:). guess more than anything else, they go looking for typical Bhartiya Nari, who cooks, cleans, works and keeps mum and has not much opinion of her own. thats the cliched image many have of a desi girl, more specifically the ones who are born and brought up in the east. times are changing are so are the women in east. thats why so many of such matches end up in divorce because the women turn out to be ambitious and vocal ones, much unlike what the guys expect them to be.

If you are going to sing it, why care if the club plays it or not? ;-)

C'mon buddy....even Aamir needed the beat in the background!

Its on the corner of Shangri La and El Dorado...

Here:

Utopia is a predominantly middle class neighborhood. It contains a large group of Conservative and Orthodox Jews as well as groups of Chinese, Korean, Russian, Indian, and Hispanic people.

Utopia is a mostly urban neighborhood with tree lined streets.

Ritam, well, your last post made me burst out laughing so yes, I'd say you stand a good chance.

Well there it is folks -- the 100% foolproof method of blowing a bitch shield into smithereens.

Step 2: Find the cohones to actually execute. Hehe.

PS so you do watch some Bollyood milli ;)

Utopia is a predominantly middle class neighborhood. It contains a large group of Conservative and Orthodox Jews as well as groups of Chinese, Korean, Russian, Indian, and Hispanic people.

Utopia is a mostly urban neighborhood with tree lined streets.

Yeah , Utopia is where its at.. stick to the Home depot there ,its classy..the Lowes is a total meat market...

musical (*btw like the name*)

they go looking for typical Bhartiya Nari, who cooks, cleans, works and keeps mum and has not much opinion of her own

i can so make a crass comment.. but i will refrain..
but you get the gist of what i'm getting at..

the less educated, no opinions/interests besides cooking, raising kids, 'subservient' attitude, is what most of them (desi docs) wanted.. they (boy docs) already had the education and the bank taken care of.. most of the ones i know brought home gals from bharat with 'home science' degrees or no degrees at all..whatever floats their boat i guess.

anyhoot, all works out in the world... as it tends to do.. eventually...

okay.. back to clinic..

has religion ever been a problem for anyone?

What problem? I have no problem with men from other religions. It's not like I'm trying to date them. :-)

Religion is a problem for me in the sense that I am religious, yet everyone I meet seems to be agnostic or atheist.

Now stop distracting me people! I'm going to do some real work.

:)

#223 haha, that really true for desis? u still do columns for india abroad? let me be more specific. not dating people of other religions period for whatever reason. having to convert to another religion in order to marry the person. having a problem with the other person's relious tenets etc. also any opinions on the religiousness of desis in general in the US? I think the muslims are more religious. wonder if taz has had problems. I'm almost surprised this angle hadn't come up earlier.

So I guess the consensus was already made that Desi men are intimidated by strong women and that's why there are problems between Indian men and women dating.

Why not have just told us this was the established conclusion right from the start? That way, no discussion and all the Indian guys could just agree and we could all move on

Enimals. all of young are enimals. Vat u r saying...

Oh damn. Actually, one last question ...

for those of you commenting on the men who go back to desh and bring back submissive, moldable wives -- might I ask from what communities those men are from? I wanted to make a comment about someone's earlier comment about the "demure Indian girl" stereotype, but lost track of it.

Anyway, I ask because in my community (the -American one, not original one in India), the LAST thing any family wants for their son is a submissive, uneducated wife. A bachelor's degree is a must, master's preferred. An unemployed woman is out of the question. Not only must she be degreed, but be upwardly mobile in her profession. And beyond that, she is also expected to be anything but demure! The families I know value women who are extroverted hostesses, open-minded, and who can hold their own with the uncles any day. Frankly, I feel a lot of pressure to be some sort of superwoman if I ever wanted to marry within my community.

JOAT #210:

I have better luck meeting guys in non pick up places....trains, elevators, Art galleries, Movie premieres, Barnes & Noble, Trader Joe's, Starbucks, Home Depot, Loews etc.

When I was single, frustrated, and living in DC, I'd go to talks and lectures which interested me to meet people. On the chance that I did meet someone, I'd know that they had some similar interest as me, and if I didn't meet anyone, at least I got to hear an interesting talk/lecture.

I didn't end up going on any dates, but I did force myself to introduce myself to some very interesting people who are now very good friends of mine.

MBF here in the OC, am having fun reading the comments going back and forth, married at 22, 11 yrs ago..hubby caught me before I knew any better..(kidding, but only a little..)

So I guess the consensus was already made that Desi men are intimidated by strong women and that's why there are problems between Indian men and women dating.

So strange because the majority of the single guys I know who are around 30 are all looking for independent woman - women who have their own careers, have lived on their own and can have stimulating conversations with them. They completely wouldn't be interested in women who would be happy sitting at home and cooking.

Is sepiamutinydating.com close to a reality? Can Abhi and ANNA act as Gods. modern day reincarnations of EROS.

make it happen!

make it happen!

It's already happened - just take a little initiative :)

that really true for desis?

Sure why not. I'm different, I've been different my whole life, I don't want to spend the rest of it trying to explain that to someone else. Nevermind the sweet closeness that I feel with a man who understands my language and who doesn't get weirded out customs or rituals or for that matter who doesn't see me as "different" but as someone "just like him".

My parents have never said to me "Don't marry a non hindu" but I know if I stepped too far out they would not be happy. All my life I had friends of all races and religions and my parents never said a word about it and were friendly with them and their families just as well. But if I brought a non hindu/sikh (yeah sardars are accepted in my family) home they would have a major cow over it. I know this for sure.

When I was single, frustrated, and living in DC, I'd go to talks and lectures which interested me to meet people. On the chance that I did meet someone, I'd know that they had some similar interest as me, and if I didn't meet anyone, at least I got to hear an interesting talk/lecture.

I didn't end up going on any dates, but I did force myself to introduce myself to some very interesting people who are now very good friends of mine.

There you go. It absolutely works. Personally I find that I no longer make the effort to "go out of my way" to meet guys. I do what makes me happy and brings me joy and lo and behold there are the guys. And if there are none I don't notice because I was doing something that made me happy in the first place. It's a good rule.

I agree, they don't want us sitting at home and cooking. However, I still have yet to meet more than 5 or 6 (I'm sure there are a ton out there and I just haven't met them yet) who are comfortable when a Namooru (aka 'Desi' for all you non-Kannada speakers) girl voices an opinion or is outgoing. For some reason, speaking our minds makes us 'aggressive' or 'intimidating', words that make me cringe every time they are ascribed to independent women.

I think we need a site for men who are looking for opinionated desi women - I bet we could get a good number of signups =)

#235 ah thanks for the response. didn't answer my second question.

Sahej,

I too do not want to believe at all in this stereotype of Indian men being intimidated by strong women. After all these are my fathers, brothers and sons we are talking about!

I am an FOB and have not interacted much with Indian guys who grew up outside India. But, to my horror I found that my outspoken nature is not at all welcome with many Indian guys. (yes, I do know some Indian men who are not like this at all, e.g. my husband) Perhaps it is not being intimidated, but just not being interested in a conversation with a woman. I do not know what the reasons are.

I always had this problem back in gatherings in India too that I would sit in the living room and talk with the men about politics or anything else - I did not have anything to talk to in the kitchen with the women. But this was not encouraged - especially after I grew up - past 16-18 years of age. Even the people who encouraged me to be independent before were uncomfortable that I was not demure and would speak up with my opinions even though I was not directly being addressed. This behaviour was quite subtle and I did not understand what it meant until recently

Amazingly enough, even the very highly educated men and women who are from India and whom I meet here also have teh same attitude. Not only do the men feel uncomfortable, the women do too - I can never belong to one of those 'women's circles' because I talk directly to their husbands/boyfriends.

And if I ever mention this, people assume it must be because I am a bitch! In fact, if anything, my problem is that I am a little constrained in my speech perhaps because of the expectations surrounding me as I grew up.

I guess this is not directly related to 'intimidation', but it might be contributing to outspoken women not getting attention from desi men.

Desi men are intimidated by strong women

I have yet a meet a strong women (or man) who identifies herself/ himself as "strong", be any race. Usually, they radiate strength by deeds rather talk about it. Same with sex. Something to think about.

I have seen Benazir Bhutto and Indira Gandhi in person - They weren't running around claiming their strength.

Bottom line - if you are Madhuri Dixit/ Aishwaryia Rai/ Zeenat Aman/ Dharmendra/ Imran Khan - you can get away with anything. Else, play with the cards you have. Know yourself in the food chain.

Hare Rama Hare Krishna

No guy on this thread has actually complained about opinionated women, though. This site right here is probably as good as it gets in that regard.

), the LAST thing any family wants for their son is a submissive, uneducated wife. A bachelor's degree is a must, master's preferred. An unemployed woman is out of the question. Not only must she be degreed, but be upwardly mobile in her profession.

Let me understand this. An uneducated woman from India does not deserve a successful guy from the US?.I am not talking about the guy who marries such to exploit them mentally/physically. One of the guys I knew married from India. Now he is spending his money to educate her here in the US.

When you have a strict set of rules to which you want the other person to fall under, then, there is no love and open mindedness.

#235 ah thanks for the response. didn't answer my second question.

:-) Not as much anymore. I hit the ceiling for "topics" palpable to the IA readers. Besides they operate like a very poorly oiled Indian machine. Not like they were making a dent in my dough but it's the principle of it. I'm enjoying blogging and ghost writing these days :-)

No guy on this thread has actually complained about opinionated women, though. This site right here is probably as good as it gets in that regard.

So then why aren't all of you hooking up with each other instead of pointing out the shortcomings of the opposite sex!

having an opinion on a forum where your identity is protected versus the willingness to give that same opinion in a crowd-- there is a difference

Suma,

My mom used to talk theology with the men, and in fact she was very assertive about her views. As time went on, she was very respected for her views and took a backseat to no one. If anyone new to our circle came by and was agast, well tough shit for him, he could just look on with his mouth open while he got used to it.

However, I too am an opinionated person. In general, people don't like opinionated people unless they are speaking opinions that the other person agrees with. Being opinionated is a double-edged sword and there is no doubt about that. I don't have answers, but I object to these idea that Desi men are especially intimidated. It's too simplisitic and it assumes far too much about a person's thoughts.

I have yet a meet a strong women (or man) who identifies herself/ himself as "strong", be any race. Usually, they radiate strength by deeds rather talk about

I don't think anyone here is talking about their personal strenghts at all. Rather the women seem to be talking about their actions (outspoken, talking to men openly, having an opinion) that are defined as "coming across strong" and hence have a negative connotation in the Indian context.

So then why aren't all of you hooking up with each other instead of pointing out the shortcomings of the opposite sex!

Mainly because there's not any mechanism for doing it.

Plus, disagreements are unpleasent, and I wouldn't presume that someone I was having a disagreement with would jump to then have coffee and conversation. :-)

I don't think anyone here is talking about their personal strenghts at all. Rather the women seem to be talking about their actions (outspoken, talking to men openly, having an opinion) that are defined as "coming across strong" and hence have a negative connotation in the Indian context.

Did anyone ever tell these girls that they "come as strong" or was it the justification the girls thought of themselves. Like Sahej pointed out, some of them may not have liked them because of their opinions itself not because of having opinions.

re: parents of ABD boys looking for girls from a south asian motherland

i always took that to mean those parents didn't think we abd girls were good enough for their precious sons...we lacked qualities that would qualify us as suitable candidates. why?? i couldn't tell you. i have nothing against non-diasporic south asian girls at all-- they are powerful and awesome. however, so are we!!

There are a whole host of reasons why this option is taken up, and in order to know it you would have to talk with the people doing it. Looking on from the outside, you will most likely be projecting assumptions onto the situation

No guy on this thread has actually complained about opinionated women, though. This site right here is probably as good as it gets in that regard.

Why would any red blooded male complain? It's not like women have anything quality to say. You just ignore them. Or tie them barefoot to a stove, get em pregnant, and bring groceries to cook food. Whoever listens to opinions anyway? Even if they actually are saying something. I just see the mouth move. Their voice is probably in the ultrasonic range, nothing a human can pick up.

GujuDude runs. Incoming. Take cover.

A barrage of hair spray, nail polish remover bottles, high heels, pink cellphones inbound. And then the wild haired, fake nail armed, banshees make their charge at you. Once you the screaming tazmanian devils, you know you're in for it. The horror.

Sahej #241:

No guy on this thread has actually complained about opinionated women, though. This site right here is probably as good as it gets in that regard.

It's pretty easy to make a general statement saying that one tolerates, doesn't mind, or appreciates opinionated women. It's another matter entirely how one responds to the following statements, for example, from a woman:

No.
Let me finish...
I understand that's what you think, but I think...

One friend of mine recounted a conversation she's had many times:

Her: (has finished talking about something articulately and passionately)
Man: (since he has no other response and really would prefer not to exercise his brain) "You need to chill" or "Okay, relax"
Her: "Why? I'm perfectly fine, expressing an opinion doesn't mean I'm worked up about it"
Man: "Yeah, well you came across as pretty aggressive"

As she puts it: Standard fucking response

But, like you pointed out, Sahej, these habits aren't unique to Desi men.

But vivek, on this thread I feel like no one has said that. To the extent possible I think points of view have been countered and not shut down. Maybe I am mistaken.

I think in general, women's opinions often suffer through what you say, my point of view is that desi men socialized in america are not very different in terms of how threatened they are by women's successes

found a personal from craigslist relevant to this topic...it includes the original post from the Desi woman

new york craigslist > manhattan > women seeking men > OK this is what I want... - my poor desi sister
last modified: Thu, 12 Oct 02:33 EDT

OK this is what I want... - my poor desi sister - 28

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: pers-219446768@craigslist.org
Date: 2006-10-12, 2:33AM EDT

so sad, sister. i call you sister, because as a non ivy grad, you can never be anything more to me. not that i would want a relationship with so shallow a woman as yourself, who thinks love is best expressed in the harsh concretist form of a resume, as opposed to a poem. you seek a man who is secure, but what else but your own insecurities would lead you believe that you must have a man with an ivy league education, so that every time you see his harvard t-shirt or his princeton alum email address, it affirms your worth and infuses your cold heart with a tepid glow that a such a man would look at you with appreciative eyes. would a man with a degree from, say, the university of michigan have a gaze of less value. or cuny. or no education at all. our people invented the caste system and it lives on in our spirits, kept alive by women like you who continually seek to redifine bhramanical status in modern terms.

but perhaps if you carpe diem, and go out into the world with an open mind, heart and eyes, then you will not be relegated to die a miserable spinster, who despite her tennis playing, skiing, and magna cum loudly (in case you missed it the first time) was unable to find love. See in the real world, unlike the ivy league fanstasy land you inhabit, we cannot rely on deux ex machina to solve our poorly wrought stories.

So instead of needlessly translating french phrases into latin, remember there is more to life than thinking and being. there is seeing and feeling also.

may you marry a sanitation worker!

ORIGINAL POST:

IF you are a guy Ivy educated, and into the following: running, biking, hiking, reading kant,traveling locally and abroad, speaks various languages, has awesome music taste (smiths, jeff buckley, the clash, the cure, quiet riot, the rolling stones,heart, etc.)is jewish and wants and indian partner in crime, is sweet, is not insecure and is over 30 write me.

A little about me: super cute, funny, well connected, likes to ski and play tennis, knows the difference between the following phrases: "deus ex machina," "carpe diem," "veritas" and "cogito ergo sum." Send a pic maybe we can meet up and discuss.

Please do not be the following: Psuedo intellectual, pretentious, a non-Ivy grad, not ready for a semi serious relationship, not know the difference between Rick Rubin and Robert Rubin, not like animals especially cats.

this is in or around new york and hindustan

no -- it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

219446768

on this thread I feel like no one has said that. To the extent possible I think points of view have been countered and not shut down. Maybe I am mistaken.

Sorry, it's a bit late here, I'm unclear on what you mean by this - no one has said what, and which points of view have been countered?

our people invented the caste system and it lives on in our spirits, kept alive by women like you who continually seek to redifine bhramanical status in modern terms.

nice...

Sorry, it's a bit late here, I'm unclear on what you mean by this - no one has said what, and which points of view have been countered?

No one has responded in this thread in the fashion you suggest in your example conversation. If I have and you can point it out, I would like to know.

Sahej:

my point of view is that desi men socialized in america are not very different in terms of how threatened they are by women's successes

I agree. My impression is that men in general tend to be threatened by successful women, and this is in no way restricted to desi dudes. But it plays both ways: how many women would show sincere interest in a man they see as less successful than them?

Psuedo intellectual ... check
pretentious ... check
a non-Ivy grad ... check
not ready for a semi serious relationship .. check
not know the difference between Rick Rubin and Robert Rubin ... check
not like animals especially cats ... check

hey, i am all the following yaar!!!

i didn't see an example of this conversation...on this post, but it is relevant to the topic

Painfully pretentious, reminds me of a modern day Honoria Glossop or Florence Craye...

IF you are a guy Ivy educated, and into the following: running, biking, hiking, reading kant,traveling locally and abroad, speaks various languages, has awesome music taste (smiths, jeff buckley, the clash, the cure, quiet riot, the rolling stones,heart, etc.)is jewish and wants and indian partner in crime, is sweet, is not insecure and is over 30 write me.

A little about me: super cute, funny, well connected, likes to ski and play tennis, knows the difference between the following phrases: "deus ex machina," "carpe diem," "veritas" and "cogito ergo sum." Send a pic maybe we can meet up and discuss.

Please do not be the following: Psuedo intellectual, pretentious, a non-Ivy grad, not ready for a semi serious relationship, not know the difference between Rick Rubin and Robert Rubin, not like animals especially cats.

No one has responded in this thread in the fashion you suggest in your example conversation. If I have and you can point it out, I would like to know.

I didn't see it on this thread either, at least not in the comments that I read through.

I thought it would be useful to add that one to the growing list of anecdotes on this thread.

Yeah. well this conversation was seriously a bad idea to enter into.

Apologies to one and all.

I need some Ghalib and some fucking Chivas

I need some Ghalib and some fucking Chivas

'Ghalib' chuutee sharaab, par ab bhee kabhee-kabhee
peeta hoon roz-e-abr-o-shab-e-maahtaab mein

Wow, you know two things are very clear here:
Lessons Learnt Today:
Girls: Go back and read you post, you should realize why you have bad dates. There is something as being to opinionated, you aren’t perfect either and its call being human.
Boys: Really stop being such wimps!! All I hear is, “but why don’t they like me, why why why.” Grow up and be men, “You don’t like me, well tough sister, your loss.” That will juice up any girl, we don’t have any balls so we like it when you show us you have some (hey take your mind out of the gutter)

:-) obliged brown-fob

(goes off to google the line so he can understand what the fuck it says)

# 256
Quiet Riot and Heart = Awesome music taste?
The mating rituals of you kids are getting stranger and stranger.

Aaap Jaisa Koi..........

........jumme ke raat

And what's the whole underlying theme of FOB women being 'backward' and stuff? I've seen ABD girls who are far more traditional than many FOBs I meet. Chill on the hate toward the FOB sistas.

Just a question for the desi girls on this site...

How many of you have been told by your parents that you should look for a guy who has at least as much education as you, if not more? My mom (who herself is a Ph.D) sincerely believes that most men (and especially desi men) really can't handle their wife "doing better" than them. Do you think there is any truth to this?

Did anyone ever tell these girls that they "come as strong" or was it the justification the girls thought of themselves. Like Sahej pointed out, some of them may not have liked them because of their opinions itself not because of having opinions.

Oh lord but that's just it. Most girls that have anything to say or have opinions are told so their entire life and not necessarily always by men but by family, moms, dads, uncles, aunties, the married cousin who thinks she is helping you by telling to stop talking. The so called "modern" man doesn't tell you flat out that you are being aggressive or coming off as strong. His body language says it all. He either doesn't indulge in a conversation about something you feel strongly about, or he disregards what you are passionate about and switches topics or he says things like "wow ok you really fell strongly about this don't you" and run from you or never broach the topic ever again. Or worse there are those that will ridicule you or belittle you by making light of the one thing that sets you off because they think they are trying to be funny.

And a smart and sensitive woman knows the difference between a man who doesn't like what she's saying and a man who doesn't really care to hear what she's saying. The beauty of being one of those woman is the second man doesn't register on her radar.

Aparna -

When I first met my fiancee', the biggest issue with him for my parents was the fact that he only had a bachelor's, whereas I was about to graduate from law school. My dad would say that unless this boy gets a masters he's going to feel really inadequate in front of me (eventually leading to marital strife).

I find it funny, because in my heart I feel we are equal in every sense.

"How many of you have been told by your parents that you should look for a guy who has at least as much education as you, if not more? My mom (who herself is a Ph.D) sincerely believes that most men (and especially desi men) really can't handle their wife "doing better" than them. Do you think there is any truth to this?"

I haven't been told this at all, but I went out to a dinner with 4 girlfriend last year. All same age, with different degrees -- one JD, one MD, one BA, two MAs (including myself). All of our parents are secretly or not so secretly trying to set up their daughters with suitable boys. Who's having the most trouble? The JD and MD, of course.

Guys,

just a question,

Would you mean if you met a girl you really liked and she had a top notch career that meant you and her could take business trips all over the world? And since you have a ho-hum job, you were able to take a vacation to free up time to go with her? Or would you moan and complain that she makes me money than you?

Tell me guys.

mean = I have no clue

How many of you have been told by your parents that you should look for a guy who has at least as much education as you, if not more? My mom (who herself is a Ph.D) sincerely believes that most men (and especially desi men) really can't handle their wife "doing better" than them. Do you think there is any truth to this?

My mom believes that about her generation but not about mine. Seeking someone who is educated and "settled" is something my parent have always stressed but there was never any emphasis on "doing better than me" thought "doing as well as me" was always the least requirement. Of couse my mom will the first one to flat out tell me "You've worked hard to live this way, why would you lower your standard for someone poorer? You could love a richer man just as much as a poor man."

Aparna--

My sister and I totally encounter this problem-- we both have advanced degrees and our parents are worried that if we date boys who "ONLY HAVE A BA" (GASP!! THE HORROR!!) it will never work out.

What do you think, boys?? if a girl has a higher degree than you-- do you care? are you subconsiously intimidated?? or are you proud that a brown sister is working hard for her education??

I seriously think the opinion of Desi men here is made up of 70's bollywood movie villians

Subconciously I would crap my pants at the thought of all those greenbacks rolling, its just the scariest thought ever

I seriously think the opinion of Desi men here is made up of 70's bollywood movie villians

[Twirling my mustache ominously]

Chickpea,
i can so make a crass comment.. but i will refrain..
but you get the gist of what i'm getting at..

am not sure if i said something really offending to get you to the verge of making a crass comment. if i did, please let me know-anyhow if you felt offended by any words of mine, then my due apologies. Sorry, if i hurt u.

Who's having the most trouble? The JD and MD, of course.

Those pending college loans scare the best of em off.

Would you mean if you met a girl you really liked and she had a top notch career that meant you and her could take business trips all over the world? And since you have a ho-hum job, you were able to take a vacation to free up time to go with her? Or would you moan and complain that she makes me money than you?

Girl I like, with money. That would be a yes. It is the girls who think that the guys can't handle successful women.

My sister and I totally encounter this problem-- we both have advanced degrees and our parents are worried that if we date boys who "ONLY HAVE A BA" (GASP!! THE HORROR!!) it will never work out.

My mom believes that about her generation but not about mine. Seeking someone who is educated and "settled" is something my parent have always stressed but there was never any emphasis on "doing better than me" thought "doing as well as me" was always the least requirement. Of couse my mom will the first one to flat out tell me "You've worked hard to live this way, why would you lower your standard for someone poorer? You could love a richer man just as much as a poor man."

It is the moms and sisters and sometimes dad who have problems about this issue. Not the guys.

What I've noticed with desis I have known, and I see the same in these comments, is that desis will stereotype other desis and feel that THEY are unique exceptions to the stereotype. At what point does the exception become the rule?

I wonder how much negative stereotyping White peeople do of their men/women. I personally have never heard Whites talk about the issues of dating other White people. Is it just because they don't have to deal with the different value systems of East and West, or also because they have more pride in who they are than many desis(at least ones in the diaspora) do?

am not sure if i said something really offending to get you to the verge of making a crass comment. if i did, please let me know-anyhow if you felt offended by any words of mine, then my due apologies. Sorry, if i hurt u.

NO you didn't say anything offensive miss musical... ahh gasp.. sigh..

i meant, i could say something that you referred to in crass terms.. (what i heard a guy say what he was looking for in women from india) but i refrained myself from it..because my jaw dropped too when i heard it for the first time)), not at what you said, kapish? sometimes these comments can be read wrong.. sorry!

p.s. happy diwali to you too... ;)

see if you get behind on a post like this, it's damn near impossible to get caught up. why can't SM have THREADED comments!!!

My desi bros,

Beware of the women who describe themselves as strong and opinionated. That's just a different side of a nagging hag. Its so obvious that it is scary.

see if you get behind on a post like this, it's damn near impossible to get caught up. why can't SM have THREADED comments!!!

b/c I really Aphrodite hates them.

People should do what makes them happy really. I've seen all kinds of relationships work, long distance, interracial, age difference everything.

But did you both speak different languages?

Beware of the women who describe themselves as strong and opinionated. That's just a different side of a nagging hag. Its so obvious that it is scary.[assholery]

Two words.

Tig,

it's statmenets like that that make me sad for all of us wonderful south asian women out there. let's hope you are just kidding and that i can find my suddenly misplaced sense of humor.

Holy Crap! I just got intimidated the fuck out of my chair! Stop being assertive!

Err ... technically, Anna, I think that's 4.

Lighten up yrsling. Don't be sad for all of the woman out there. Let some of them like Anna share the load...who just gave me her strong opinion.
Its about love...not hate people.

Have some exerpts from the stuff me and some of my friends have encountered in the matchmaking ecene:
http://desikanyasdiary.blogspot.com/2006/10/shaadi-ya.html

there are some that i didn't even post cuz' they were way too offensive and hurtful. just posted the silly ones.

have a look :)

Men have been advised to get a pair. They can learn from the masters here.

Seriously though — I wouldn't colour it sepia.
I know a black guy and a white guy. Both married desi. Totally falling for demure desi hype (they told me so).

I am happy to report that Ebony & Ivory get their asses handed to them on daily basis.

Ok, we're way past it but I have to defend myself. I ain't no skank.

She went to the speed dating thing while she had a boyfriend unless I'm wrong.

You're wrong.

a) He's not my boyfriend, we're just dating. We're really not that serious yet. (Yes. You can go out on dates with someone without being their girlfriend.)

b) We were just friends when I went on my speed dating thing. In fact, after not having spoken to him for about a month, I called him up right after speed dating because I knew he would appreciate the humor of the situation, and that started the ball rolling.

And...now we know all the details of my love life. Carry on.

sorry for the delay, long ass day at work so these responses may be a bit out of context/delayed.... whatever...give me an E for effort.. okay here it goes:

fuerza dulce:

Chickpea:

I can understand how it feels when you're branded as "intimidating" or as having a "dominant" personality. I'm by no means an alpha female, but I guess it doesn't always come off like that.

actually it's not my personality that is intimdiating but my profession which i find is intimidating to most.. an ent surgeon that i know well told me that he's intimidated by me because of the specialty i'm in... (his brother is in my field as well...;))...if you get past the haziness of the MD... but that itself stops a lot of them...i love what i do... and adore the people i treat...but my profession doesn't tell everything about me as most people who know me in real life outta this blog world can attest to.. the MD is only one small facet of what the pea is all about..

bidi smoker:

Since when did being a doctor become a bad thing in the desi community?

if a guy is comfortable with his own being, he will not be intimidated as i've found out from the boys i've been in relationships with...and no they were all not doctors.

miss rupa:

This falls more into what our own garbanzobean has been talking about (and my own brothers agree with me): desi guys are intimidated by a woman who's successful in her career and has a strong opinion (GOD FORBID

and desi dude docs likley don't want to end up with desi chica docs.. (my brother included)...
there is somewhat of a profession pyramid that i've seen in the years....
pinnacle are the male docs.. even if they are the jerkiest jerks.. they have the pickings of anything on their field or below... the entire gamut.. the female docs.. are somewhat the pariahs... (generalizing here from personal and others' experiences)

Cinnamon Rani:

Chick Pea, somewhere out there is a rockstar waiting for you. I think you may need a new guitar…

Taz: you may get over 500 comments on this thread... hot diggity damn ;)...

Everyone: Happy Diwali... may your dating scene be super fabulous this year (whether or not it be ms. dewey ;))....may parental set ups not be as painful.. may your profile not be put up by family in secrecy (didn't happen to me, but i know it happened to a few out there)... may everyone find their mate that they are happy with and makes them want to become a better person.. and of course may all work out well in the world..and with that i bid you all a good night..

There is a difference between being opinionated and having opinions. Former bad, later good.

I love chicks with opinions. Nothing attracts me more than a girl with whom you have some intellectual sparring.

As far as being a FOB is concerned, I have had a lot more success with non-desi girls than desi girls and thats not including those who "exoticize" me and "culturally rape" me ;)

My theory is that it all boils down to sex. A persons behavior indicates how they will be in bed - aggresive or submissive, experimental or boring, impulsive or rule bound, kamasutra or kraut. Consciously or sub consiously we choose a person who we think will rock our world. Thats why I am attracted to intellectually curious and impulsive chicks.

Ofcourse its no indicator of how well you will get along outside the bedroom. The older you get the less important sex becomes and more important other things like money become.

What I've noticed with desis I have known, and I see the same in these comments, is that desis will stereotype other desis and feel that THEY are unique exceptions to the stereotype. At what point does the exception become the rule?

What do you think, boys?? if a girl has a higher degree than you-- do you care? are you subconsiously intimidated?? or are you proud that a brown sister is working hard for her education??

I won't be intimidated by her diplomas if she's not intimidated by the fact that I most likely know my way around a kitchen better than she does. In my case, it's not really an issue because I hate having a job, so as a result I've accumulated a fair number of degrees in order to avoid the working life. Furthermore, I would be perfectly happy if she brought home the bacon and supported my musical and activist proclivities.

What I've noticed with desis I have known, and I see the same in these comments, is that desis will stereotype other desis and feel that THEY are unique exceptions to the stereotype. At what point does the exception become the rule?

And I know you think that you are exception to that rule :D

LOL....Russell's Paradox...

The older you get the less important sex becomes

I thought its how old YOUR PARTNER (and not you) becomes the less important the sex with them gets. :D

Sorry way too much time and way too less creative inclines to put anything meaningful. So am just honing my juvenile behaviour skills :(

Ok I have to disagree with the whole intimidated by doctors thing, being one myself. If desi guys are intimidated by chick doctors, it's an american thing. I grew up in India where half the women are doctors and I would argue that it is actually an advantage at least in the marriage world. I think american guys, desi or not, are more intimidated by doctors. You pretty much have to marry another doctor if you are one. (I did--but not a desi)

Maybe intimidated is not the right word, it's more that they don't want to be married to/dating someone who has lousy hours, looks like crap 90% of the time due to wearing teal green pyjamas as a uniform, and talks incessantly about their job. Who can blame them?

The older you get the less important sex becomes

Regardless of whether or not this is true, I think it's pretty sad to start a relationship with that disclaimer.
Maybe you should hold yourself to a higher horizontal standard.

Ok I have to disagree with the whole intimidated by doctors thing, being one myself. If desi guys are intimidated by chick doctors, it's an american thing. I grew up in India where half the women are doctors and I would argue that it is actually an advantage at least in the marriage world.

i second doctorgal, i think its a american thing back in desh most doc guys marry doc chics and vice versa (infact its a strong preference). All my doc cousins are married to one. Already student ratio at indian medical schools is 50:50 between men and women,in next couple of years women are going to outpace men, its already happning in some schools, then maybe they can't find doc guys.

Sorry i'am doctorguy

I love that TheBarmaid speaks up on the 300+ post only when it comes to horizontal positions... ;-)

JOAT: I hope you dont get yourself fired sista ;)

JOAT: I hope you dont get yourself fired sista ;)

:-) As long as SM doesn't put up any pics of naked peeps and doesn't get on the "banned by L'Oreal policy" I'm golden! Besides my boss is a hardcore republican that has all kinds of shit open on his computer all the time. I'm just sayin...

Sahej:

because indian women are so hot and all

What about what non-desis expect from us because of our desiness? Men always assume my parents will hate them because they're not doctors, or that I've been fighting off an arranged marriage for the past ten years.

Having met lots of desi women across the spectrum, and finally meeting and marrying my mrs., I can safely that in matters of dating and love, the only rule is that there are no rules. Maybe another rule is that if rules are that important to you, they'll come and bite you in the ass when you meet that perfect gorgeous someone, only to find that their rules cancel you out of the running. so why bother with rules?

i do think rules and games and the like become trivial when you reach your 30s like me and my mrs., because by the time we met we had gone through the rigmarole of meeting all kinds of crazy people we could never be happy with... a result of thst process was total clarity of purpose. we knew what we were looking for, what we could tolerate, and what we wouldn't put up with. and when we met everything went like clockwork -- no mess, no drama, no mind games etc. it was amazing and i'm glad i met all the goobers and weirdos along the way because when my mrs. came along, i could really appreciate her for the wonderful person that she is. maybe this might shed some light on the mysteries of desi dating??

The guys are trying way too hard to overcompensate in that little YouTube video -- maybe that's why they find themselves single. Ugh, tools.

As far as the 3 day rule goes, you play it by ear. We're all ridiculously impatient these days -- so I think after one day has passed, a text message is a safe bet. Then a phone call. And then you skulk around outside his apartment and hope he doesn't file a restraining order against you...ermm...

a text message is a safe bet

Arrrggghhh...I recently had a conversation about communciation in dating with a date. We've replaced real human contact with the virtual kind. We don't write letters or cards anymore instead we send emails, text messages and ecards. Email and text messages have really fucked up the dating process IMO. Emails/text messages should be used occassionally or in addition to real communication never in place of it.

Errr sorry about the In Love title...damn SM cookies!

The older you get the less important sex becomes

Regardless of whether or not this is true, I think it's pretty sad to start a relationship with that disclaimer.
Maybe you should hold yourself to a higher horizontal standard.

OK, its not a theory, its a conjecture or a hypothesis. Happy? Especially since I have no idea what I am talking about :)

As far as horizontal positions are concerned there are no standards, only standard bearers.

The older you get the less important sex becomes and more important other things like money become.

Money and sex...hmm...
O Romeo, Romeo...wherefore art thou Romeo...

The older you get the less important sex becomes and more important other things like money become.

Money and sex...hmm...
O Romeo, Romeo...wherefore art thou Romeo...

Hey, dont hate on me. Its not like I am saying its true, I said its a theory. Its a cute one though, no?

And, Romeo is a wuss. Call me Kris

they should have a bachelor like show for desis only. one guy gets to makeout with numerous girls and keeps eleminating them one by one and picks one at end

will this fly with desis?

I'm not dating while desi... though a lot of these issues echo in the black community... but at 20 anos, it's really sad to see that even past the age of 30 people are still playing games with each other and following stupid sets of rules.

I love that TheBarmaid speaks up on the 300+ post only when it comes to horizontal positions... ;-)

...and I hate the way that comment reads and or makes her sound, emoticon or not.

well, i resisted posting for one whole work day. my 2c---for fob straight males---don't chase after abds. one exception: the remarkable ones in some real---and not exceptional based on popularity, if you know what i mean---way, and i am not talking abt looks here.

the problem is that most regular abd women (and men, and non-abds, and fobs, natives and pets of every nation i am sure) are looking to "trade up" the pop-culture ladder. if you don't look like you are a bargain in some very obvious superficial sense, you are out, even if you are bach, davis or tyagaraja (eh? doesn't count obviously).

the really exceptional ones don't need to trade up. they are content in themselves. go for them. it works.

so you see fellow fobs, you need not complain, you have it made. the rotten ones eliminate themselves :). you need not have a filter, nothing.

of course if you want to be a player, get yourself gel, roll your tongue. or just bleach it the michael jackson style. but i get carried away with the analogy, i was talking of getting adult women here..

I love that TheBarmaid speaks up on the 300+ post only when it comes to horizontal positions... ;-)

Thank you, Beige Siege, for seeing my larger point. Horizontal positions weren't what my comment implied, but I suppose others will take from it what they want to read.

I should have known better, I suppose, than to contribute to the navel gazing and all-around donnybrook this comment thread has become.

Good morning!

Beige Siege #302:

There is a difference between being opinionated and having opinions. Former bad, later good.

Eh? What's the difference, and why's one good and the other bad?

they should have a bachelor like show for desis only. one guy gets to makeout with numerous girls and keeps eleminating them one by one and picks one at end

Flavor Flaaaavvvv

Had to see how it turned out,

Rupa,

You're wrong.

a) He's not my boyfriend, we're just dating. We're really not that serious yet. (Yes. You can go out on dates with someone without being their girlfriend.)

b) We were just friends when I went on my speed dating thing. In fact, after not having spoken to him for about a month, I called him up right after speed dating because I knew he would appreciate the humor of the situation, and that started the ball rolling.

And...now we know all the details of my love life. Carry on.

My bad on that.

Chickpea,

amen to that.. i've seen it time and time again.. not with just my own experiences but tons of other fantastic females that roam this planet we call earth..

I think when you say you know a lot of fabulous women who are being shot down by men you think are intimidated by, I think its more likely, you are friends with them, you see their good sides, and you wonder why the hell they haven't found someone nice yet.

BUT, I don't think, speaking as a guy, the intimidation thing makes any sense at all. I think the two don't go together. I think moreso than that, life and dating does not give you what you put into it. Totally douchebag guys get a lot of play all the time. And anyone who tells you its not fun to get play has no functional genitalia (sorry to be gross). Just because you are motivated, wordly, smart, and kind does not mean you will find a person who appreciates you. Every nice guy without a woman could say, oh its just because women don't like nice guys. Thats as non-sensical as statement.

Has any man ever convinced a woman that the whole problem with dating is that women don't like nice guys? Probably never. So analagously, maybe you look at your friends who you care about and all that and you wonder why they are single, but its not because men are intimidated by the fabulousness of the whole situation.

At the end I don't think what I said will really fly but hey, just another set of words.

Shout outs to Ashi (#114) for doing such a nice marketing job for us FOBs!

Taz, if you move to nyc, and are willing to ease off on rule #3 then i'll be dateable. I'm 28, and look the average of Cruise and Goundamani (imagine..). or if you want to stick with LA then you'll have to settle for my younger bro, who looks the sum average of Spacey and Clooney. needless to say, he already has a cbd gf.

nice post.

How in the hell do you get an indian cross between Kevin Spacey and George Clooney?

Sahej's anology makes a lot of sense to me - Indian/any women do not like nice men VS Indian/any men are intimidated by strong women

There is a kernel of truth in both views, but their correctness and value is limited

ylrsings:
As a kannada man, I object to your tirade. I don't mind any of the things you do and am not intimidated by them. Ennu hanige matarti?
To the rest:
Or by any of the things women on this page say men are intimidated by. Succesful career woman = she got money; smart, confident = you seriously want a dumb, docile bid? I mean...girl; tall = kid joins the NBA (at least by 2020, I'm taking over and unders); opinionated = where you been all my life?; big booty = big booty. Uh, ignore the last one. Damn, my backspace doesn't work.
I'd date any one of you, hell, all of you at once. Bring it. I ain't hiding.

Bring it. I ain't hiding.

Oh, WORD? Southie and you dig a cute kundi? Where you at, kid? It's been BROUGHTEN.

You guys have it so easy. I'm in the icky space between FOBdom and CDiness leaning. There are so few people of my type and I don't connect with either extremes.

Also, this site needs a better commenting system. Something like the one used on DailyKos.

^ This site also needs an editing system!

Is there a term for us folks who were born in the desh and moved with our families when we were kids?

I suppose you single desi guys haven't seen this player 101 superhit post from a few months back. With pics and all.

IBCD?

Alot of women seem to use the "Im to opinionated" for guys to like me excuse for not being able to find a guy.

People in general dont like people who are to opinionated because everything is a debate with them and nothing seem's to be pleasant about being in there presence.

vivek: i think that's what 1.5 gen means? i could be wrong about that.

Whaaaa? 1.5 Gen is an actual known term? I independently coined that sometime last year!

The common thread we all share is that we're all confused. Whatever rules we make, we have to start from there.

I would like to open another topic for discussion, if anyone's still following along. I mentioned this earlier, but I feel like when you're desi there's no such thing as casually dating (no I don't mean casual sex), and I'm unsure why. I don't assume that all desi men are intimidated by me (I'm not that full of myself) but I do think that maybe in both of our heads there's this unspoken automatic long-term potential there because you're both desi "suitable life partners." Well, not in my head because I actually believe in the old-fashioned notion of dating, but maybe the guys feel that way? I'm not sure.

Is it because of the way we're raised? My parents never had much to say about dating except that I couldn't do it, until one of my cousins went through a nasty divorce and my parents suddenly had the lightbulb flash that unless they encouraged me to get out there and play the field, figure out what I needed to be happy in a relationship and what it meant to be in a healthy one, the same thing could happen to me. Now my mom thinks I'm a loser and don't date enough. [I'm so not joking. She's like, "You need to put on some lipstick and go talk to boys."]

Sahej
ref : your post in 276

Not sure about the ABD chicks but I can say this about high flying FOB chicks.

I graduated out of IIT & IIM. Propositioned a few Mckinsey / I-bankers in Desh about the option of me being a house husband - I got blown off :)
They wanted guys who make more money than they do - dont see the point really - they make more money than one could spend in a life time :)

now happily married via "arranged marriage" and the primary provider :)

There's no such thing as casual dating between brownz? I beg to differ!

but I feel like when you're desi there's no such thing as casually dating (no I don't mean casual sex), and I'm unsure why.

I believe someone above mentioned the "we're of the same kind" argument above. Also, as an extension to that, I think you have to be cognizant of the possibility that there's more to it than just you "2" dating. For example, boy and girl are dating, and girl's parents know that boy and girl are dating. Of course to many of the parents, they assume that if the kids are dating, they are well on their way to a relationship...and whammo, marriage (I apologize for my pronoun antecedent usage...hopefully it was clear). So, if the guy breaks-up with the girl (it could be the other way around...), the parents will often bad-mouth (I've seen this happen numerous times) the other party often to other people outside the family, and voila...a reputation develops.

Also, what do you consider dating? On one hand, I can see dating veering on the border of casual sex all the way to being in a relationship, yet still doing the things you did in the "happy happy joy joy" phase, to just going out every once in a while and making out (say 2nd base).

Re: Intimidation - I'm surprised to see that noone has mentioned the converse - women being intimidated by guys.

We ABCD's are a fu**ed up race, high achievers on one hand, and deeply mutilated by shame on the other. So much for being yourself.

Oh, the angst!

I dunno about casual dating between us deeply mutilated folks...what I've seen between desi couples I know is more almost-dating but with dramas. So if they just relaxed then they would be casually dating.

And there are a lot of Indian parents who let their kids date nowadays, aren't there? I've been allowed to date since I was around 15. A wise move on my parents' part I think as I didn't turn into a drama-loving boy-crazy girlie sneaking behind their backs.

I dunno, where I live, there isn't really a dating culture. Maybe it's because I'm from a different age group and I picture dating as something people in their late 20's/30's do. I'm seconding Meredith Grey by calling for the old fashioned concept to return.

God Almighty. So much stereotyping. So much "what's wrong with them, why won't they date meeeeee ?!". So much angst. So much confusion.

Joking aside, for the record I think Sahej is spot-on in many of the things he's said, including his concerns about some of the stereotyping and hidden prejudices which are being demonstrated by many here. GujuDude too, and in my view these two guys are amongst the most accurate people on this entire thread. I also agree with CinnamonRani in post #267.

I see that there are some issues you appear to be having to deal with which are specific to American society (including American desi society) and which I'm not in a position to accurately comment on. However, there is some overlap with various things we in Britain have to deal with, so I'll just give a few thoughts as follows.

GUYS: Grow some frikking backbone. Don't be threatened by a woman who is intelligent/smart/educated etc, but simultaneously don't assume that all the fault lies with you. And bear in mind that blindly agreeing with an excessively outspoken desi woman who may get a kick out of how self-consciously "unconventional" she is ain't going to get you any action from her, unless she has some kind of "Queen Bee" syndrome (probably not even then). But stay the hell away from men who treat women like dirt, regardless of how much "fun" they may represent themselves as having and how much they may try to drag you into the same kind of behaviour. Also, get rid of the patriarchal baggage which is blindly propagated in some quarters of South Asian culture, especially the aspects which condone men behaving as overbearing, bullying jerks towards women. It requires a lot of self-awareness to deprogramme yourself about all that, but you don't have to go to the opposite extreme and become a doormat. Matriarchy is no better than Patriarchy.

LADIES: There is a difference between being "strong and opinionated", and being a loudmouthed jerk who is constantly shooting her mouth off as though she has something to prove. As Kush T accuately said earlier, someone who really is strong and sexy doesn't grandstand about the fact. The person's qualities speak for themselves, regardless of whether we're talking about a man or a woman. Don't fall into the "women versus men", "gender wars" trap -- we're all in this together -- and for God's sake don't behave like those characters in Sex & The City where the reason they frequently sabotaged their relationships was because they were not "friends" in the real sense of the term with the men they were dating. Be as decent to the men in your life as you are to your girlfriends. And get rid of the misogynistic regressive cultural influences from South Asian culture, but simultaneously have the presence of mind and independent thinking to not blindly accept every trendy extreme left-wing fashionably-PC theory which may be propagated within American culture. Sometimes the "right path" lies in-between the two extremes or is something different entirely. And again to paraphrase SATC, "Yes, sometimes he's just not that into you", and "Yes, sometimes the problem does lie within you".

BOTH MEN & WOMEN: Don't be a jerk towards members of the opposite sex, and simultaneously don't tolerate anyone from the opposite sex being a jerk towards you. Self-assurance is great, but don't let it spiral into arrogance -- South Asians do frequently have a tendency to go extremes in their thinking and behaviour, and don't know when to "apply the brakes" -- so have the humility, the honesty and the integrity to be ruthlessly frank with yourself about your own behaviour and ideas. Admit when you are wrong and/or hypocritical about something and try to rectify the problem. And again, don't fall into the trap of "Men versus Women" which is propagated in many cultures, including some sections of Western/American society; support each other whilst being honest about what may be the other party's failings, but do not think about the other party as being someone who should be manipulated or exploited and do not take advantage of their good nature. If everyone acknowledges that they are on the same side (both on an individual level and with regards to the genders as a whole), and certainly not separate "species", then it's much more constructive and amicable. It also neutralises the tendency for unnecessary gameplaying. Both men and women need to try to imagine the other party's perspective and how it feels to be "in their shoes". It's not as difficult as you may think.

Now if you don't mind, I have to get back to smoking my hookah in my harem. Some of my concubines have bought some delicious grapes they'd like to feed to me. GujuDude, you have an open invitation to join the party -- I'll keep a Persian rug unfurled just for you.

I haven't had time to read any of the comments so forgive me if this has already been covered, it probably has, but for a person who has only dated desi men in India, I think two of the most obvious questions that come to mind are;

1. how are American desi men's skills in the bedroom, and,
2. what about lingam size

Just last night me and two girlfriends (one desi, one pardesi) were discussing these very things, as often women do when they get together, conversations turn to sex - both the quality and quantity - that we are either getting or not..... or that we got in the past and still hanker for now.... yada, yada, yada.

Basically we formulated this in fun;

Penis Size East to West

The Orient - Small
South Asia (Desh) - Small to Medium
Middle East - Medium to Large
Africa - We'll be moving there soon (ha ha ha)

Remember, this was all in girly fun and we know theoretically that region has nothing to do with size, variants and variables are everywhere.

My Desi girlfriend said her Indian men were large lingamed but not good in bed. Whereas my experience has been they were small lingamed but pretty OK in bed as far as skills go.

But her Desi men were English Desi and mine were Indian Desi and we are very curious about American Desis.

Anyone care to indulge me on this?

What are some of your experiences? Dharma Queen? Are you there?

Whereas my experience has been they were small lingamed but pretty OK in bed as far as skills go.

Why skip the whole of the Western hemisphere, Pardesi Gori? Anyways, a trip to the gym is always enough to reassure me about the size issue, stereotypes be damned :)

And hell, a penis is just one of so many things a guy can use, no?

HMF- all you gotta do is add those delicious desi babes to your blog reader and you'll have more than enough proof of dating desi from the women perspective. Rupa's speed dating blog is the best example "intimidating women" off the top of my head.

It's not that desi women are intimidating, it's that ALL women are intimidating, and it's not even the woman that's intimidating, like I said before, it's the dating process that's new and uncharted. Everything we know, we know from Full House, Growing Pains, and Family Ties. Not exactly an accurate resource.

Boys: Really stop being such wimps!! All I hear is, “but why don’t they like me, why why why.” Grow up and be men, “You don’t like me, well tough sister, your loss.” That will juice up any girl, we don’t have any balls so we like it when you show us you have some (hey take your mind out of the gutter)

Ugh. I was with you until the "show your balls" and "grow up and be men" comment. I mean really. it's not just you that does this, at what point did women get together and decide they can have the run over what manhood is? That they can question the essence of a being because of behavior they find objectionable? If men were to define womanhood and request woman to "show they have ovaries" (which many often do) it's met with labels of sexism. Seriously, I pose this to question to the women out there, if it makes me look like a wuss so F'n be it.

Is it just me or is comment #350 extremely ban-worthy? If guys on here had made any similar conjectures about desi women, several of the girls in here would have already torn their heads off a la Tig. I guess the desi guys are just "intimidated" by these strong women.

A similar comment was made yesterday on this thread by (I assume) a guy about desi "lingam" size, and I noticed five minutes later that it had been deleted. I suspect PG's puerile comment remains thus far because the SM Intern is asleep on the West Coast.

Oh, I'm awake. Whenever I get tired the monkeys pelt me with fruit rinds. You have no idea what it's like here in the bunker. But to answer your question, sometimes statements are so ridiculous that it's better to just let them stand in their complete, dare I say naked, preposterousness.

Is it because of the way we're raised? My parents never had much to say about dating except that I couldn't do it, until one of my cousins went through a nasty divorce and my parents suddenly had the lightbulb flash that unless they encouraged me to get out there and play the field, figure out what I needed to be happy in a relationship and what it meant to be in a healthy one, the same thing could happen to me. Now my mom thinks I'm a loser and don't date enough. [I'm so not joking. She's like, "You need to put on some lipstick and go talk to boys."]

Totally agree, it goes from zero miles an hour to mach 5. I think there's a lot to the idea that dating for desis comes with as much drama potential as fun potential. I think if there was more "just dating" it would work out better. However, I think that kind of thing is hard to accomplish. I actually have written it off as a possiblity unless very specific circumstances which include meeting someone drunk at a bar (not a club, a dive bar) and not realizing they were indian until 2 hours into the conversation. It seems like the only way I can get my casual on....sad perhaps but true

Or more likely, that sort of thing is expected and laughed off. It reminded me of when Jeremy Glick tried to sue Bill O'Reilly for slander, but couldn't because the case couldn't be built that O'Reilly intended to slander Glick, O'Reilly is such a pathological liar and slanderer, his behavior couldn't be proved as premeditated against Glick persay.

i just ignore all of PG's comments.
it's better that way...
why feed the fire...
let it ride alone..and eventually it will extinguish itself..

Who missed the fact that PG's comment was so utterly stupid it was its own parody?

Taz - Will poster #442 get a prize?

Who says lingam, anyhow?

Who says lingam, anyhow?

Tourists.

Tourists.

Ooh. Buuuurnnnn.

Tourists.

That could be the new desi slang term for FOBs JoJs, especially if they don't intend to stay in the US permanently.

Taz - Will poster #442 get a prize?

Only if we can behave over the next 80 comments...So behave! Or an SM Intern will come and get you.

Who says lingam, anyhow?

Tourists.

Thats what they call it in desi .... adult fiction :)

Who says lingam, anyhow?

Republicans. The GOP was the party of Lingam.

Thats what they call it in desi .... adult fiction :)

Republicans. The GOP was the party of Lingam.

Did these same people study abroad during undergrad at Lund University?

Lingam hee hee Tourist hee hee, I am tickled pink, how do you guys come up with this! I am going to be using that in 'real life'! God! I have to get some work done today or I will be spending diwali @ work.

Lingam hee hee Tourist hee hee, I am tickled pink,

Thats hot

HA HA ha, now that you have pointed it out, it does sound a little 'of color'. I wish I had the will power not to click on this window, concentrate. concentrate

Its the internet addiction thing, you might need detox!

Who says lingam, anyhow?

Tourists.

And some innocent, unfortunate people.

From the expression on that girls face, I think they did know what lingam meant after all

And some innocent, unfortunate people.

Don't worry about them - I'm sure they're making plenty of money engaging in click fraud.

Tig, I can guarantee that you're about a split-second from getting banned from this website.

sorry jai,

there was no reason to feed it... accept my apologies?

Taz, no need to apologise to me. I just wanted to immediately shoot down that nonsense assertion.

Anyway, as long as you and the other Mutineers are consistent and even-handed with quickly dealing with any jerks on this blog who abuse the facilities for their own warped amusement, it's all good ;)

Whaaaa? 1.5 Gen is an actual known term? I independently coined that sometime last year!

NERD

I'll take that as a compliment :)

Ashvin - I think I am gonna concieve my kids here and let them be born in India, just so that I can mess with your formula.

GujuDude, you have an open invitation to join the party -- I'll keep a Persian rug unfurled just for you.

Brother Jai, I'll bring a box of sweets and pakoras. And booze, of course.

Is it the Canuck in me whining, or does anyone else find it extremely depressing that while the US President is farking up royally we are chatting (banally) about stuck up women and intimidated men?

The Military Commissions Act makes me want to cry. It seems to me that the American people should be rioting - do they just have faith in their judiciary or what is it?

Sorry for the threadjack. Bye.

I don't have the time or energy to read all them posts. But, I must say, thanks no Desh. That radio link in post No. 11 is one of the funniest things I have ever heard.

This one time, in college, back in India, we were forced to take down a poster which advertised a valentine's day celebration :"Celebrate your Love day"! ........

Is it the Canuck in me whining, or does anyone else find it extremely depressing that while the US President is farking up royally we are chatting (banally) about stuck up women and intimidated men?

I feel no guilt about living my life while other events unfold concurrently. People die in the world of war, hunger, and general depravity. It isn't depressing that people are chatting up about women and men, after all, mating and propogation of the species is something we share in common with most of the animal kingdom and lies at the heart of living.

So, as long as this discussion continues with mature commentators giving emotionally honest, well thought out, and open responses, I will read them. I don't put my life on hold with every disaster (or perceived political slight) and go crying about it.

This thread is not mutually exclusive with whatever else goes on in the world and gets fed into the media machine. Or thought for that matter.

Even though some posts here would make baby Jesus cry, its a far fetch from providing analysis on what's next on Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie's agenda. Wait! Bush, the crude cowboy is saying something again, everyone, STOP! Black out televison channels like the Food Network and E!, people die of hunger and everyone banally discusses gossip on E!

Look, I don't have anything against anyone here. I frankly don't know anyone well enough, it is the internet after all. But you trying to give people a guilt trip about chatting on X-Y relationships for YOUR politial viewpoint is uncalled.

I think it's normal to be intimidated by people you are attracted to. That's what makes the chase so exciting.

GujuDude - you have no real idea what happened with that Act, do you?

GujuDude - you have no real idea what happened with that Act, do you?

I actually do and people do read the news. But this thread isn't about you or your views, or who knows what about politics, the Military Commissions Act, whatever. Still trying to make me feel bad? Not gonna happen. Even if I didn't know about the law being signed yesterday, you were still trying to give people a guilt trip. Constructively inform folks, don't take the passive aggressive path.

Guju,

Commenting on an apparent disproportion in the things we are focussing on does not translate into a desire to make people feel 'bad'.

Back on topic...

would like to open another topic for discussion, if anyone's still following along. I mentioned this earlier, but I feel like when you're desi there's no such thing as casually dating (no I don't mean casual sex), and I'm unsure why.

Rupa, I think lot of what you said makes sense. It's all a delayed learning curve IMHO. Kids in the United States go to junior high dances, high school dances, homecoming, prom, etc. Even though one doesn't learn much in those years, atleast people begin to socialize, starting the learning process with the opposite sex (though we don't want to go the teen pregnancy and saran wrap route)

I'm sure many of you watched Saved By the Bell, or similarly situated shows. How many lived vicariously through it? Or friends (if you had any) of other racial backgrounds?

For desis, college seems to be what high school, from a socialization standpoint, should have been for second gens hitting their mid twenties -30s (the kids of the 70s wave, I can't speak for younger or older folk since I'm out of the loop). These are generalizations and maybe a bit solipsistic. In my observations, women seem to do better navigating without much direction, when younger, than men. Which is why I stated mentorship from a male role model (brother, father, uncle) is always helpful.

I'm sure once our generation starts poppin out babies (WOAH!) we may be better prepared to inform our kids of the options available to them. Casually dating, exercising your social skills, takes some maturity. If our community has a learning curve, it leaves a small window where casual dating makes practical sense. Once you start getting older, people want more, hence dates have a lot more riding on it (even in the back of your mind).

I think it's normal to be intimidated by people you are attracted to. That's what makes the chase so exciting.

I don't think that's what the women here were alluding to. They were alluding to the fact that desi men are intimidated by desi women that don't fit their "preconceived" notions of what desi women should be, and are taken aback when they engage in deviant activities, like talking, writing, and stepping outside of the kitchen. White men on the other hand, don't mind if their women talk, and give them roses and shit, so clearly they're preferable.

Rupa, I think lot of what you said makes sense. It's all a delayed learning curve IMHO. Kids in the United States go to junior high dances, high school dances, homecoming, prom, etc. Even though one doesn't learn much in those years, atleast people begin to socialize, starting the learning process with the opposite sex (though we don't want to go the teen pregnancy and saran wrap route)

I'm sure many of you watched Saved By the Bell, or similarly situated shows. How many lived vicariously through it? Or friends (if you had any) of other racial backgrounds?

Exactly what I said in posts #68 and #352.

I'm glad I'm married, because I absolutely sucked at dating. I got played, I played myself. I was manipulated and manipulated back. IMO, its only age and distance which gives you the humility to know you were not always right, not always good and not always innocent. During the course of things, some people -myself included- just couldn't see that.

Exactly what I said in posts #68 and #352

Woops! Sorry. It's a long thread.

#400?

#400.

Woops! Sorry. It's a long thread.

Gujudude, I didn't mean it like that, I was just affirming what you said and showing jubilation at someone else who concurs. It's so starkly obvious, but its something I wish more desi women understood. Instead of saying things like, "I wish I had a desi guy, but they're all too intimdated and don't have any balls", and realize certain behaviors were never instilled, or validated in the younger years. When we can go on and on for "what it feels like for a girl" , very little attention is given to "what it feels like for a guy?"

Another thing, and this one goes all the way back to the Wonder Years (aka grade school to high school); remember the cool indian girl who would not look at you if you were indian and hung out with anyone else but you, if you were an indian boy?

So sometimes, that memory comes back in a subtle feeling you get that kudi over there kind of sees herself as way too cool to be talking to the other brown kid in the room.

That, again, is not intimidation. Thats called having a memory.

My Desi girlfriend said her Indian men were large lingamed but not good in bed. Whereas my experience has been they were small lingamed but pretty OK in bed as far as skills go.

Are you serious? Lingam? I nearly had an asthma attack reading the word Lingam? This is a adult blog...we can say penis for cryin out loud. And what's this obsession with big penises? It's not a bottomless pit down there for petes sake. I realize it's about bragging rights with girlfriends but you can lie and tell your girlfriend your man's phallus is massive. She isn't going to know the truth! Average sized men who know what a woman want is way way more desirable than someone who needs a wheel barrow to carry it around and doesn't know what to do with it.

And if there is one thing I've learnt in my life it is that stereotypes about penises and race are almost ALWAYS wrong. And it has nothing to do with the wrist or palm or foot or whatever nonsense methods women have created for themselves to measure a man.

Rupa,

There is definite truth to the "not dating casually" with older desis. I don't know about when you are under 25. I didn't even start dating till my 20s so who the hell knows. All I know is while I'm not fixated on marriage I don't necessarily date someone just for the hell of having company and going out. I need something more substantial out of the relationship and that is where the "not dating casually" comes into play. Almost all my girlfriends are the same way. When my non desi girlfriends tell me "well just go out and have fun with him" I find it a little bit difficult to relate. I of course want to have fun but I also need to understand that the relationship is monogomous and going somewhere substantial and that doesn't necessarily mean marriage.

And I think when someone mentions doing diverse activities beyond what a regular indian is accustomed to thinking about; ie attending NETIP or what-have-you, some of the pull-back you experience has to do with being unsure as to whether you dig Indian guys.

We front like we're all that, but I'm sure most of you girls remember us from high school; most of us were not Mr. Jock-Brown Version and no one thought being Indian was, like, totally hot. Instead, if anything, the number one association was that India = curry. Maybe that has changed with this new generation, but that was a big part of my generation's formative experiences. Even Mr Hipster artiste was probably known better as Raughbir the curry head when he was little.

And now I will detox from SM for 30 days/forever!

love ya kiss kiss bye

I don't necessarily date someone just for the hell of having company and going out. I need something more substantial out of the relationship and that is where the "not dating casually" comes into play. Almost all my girlfriends are the same way. When my non desi girlfriends tell me "well just go out and have fun with him" I find it a little bit difficult to relate.

have you seen the quirkyalone website?

have you seen the quirkyalone website?

Wow who knew there there is actually such a phenomenon!!!
A person who enjoys being single (but is not opposed to being in a relationship) and generally prefers to be alone rather than dating for the sake of being in a couple. With unique traits and an optimistic spirit; a sensibility that transcends relationship status.
Don't get me wrong...I love men, I enjoy spending time with them, and sometimes even needing them. I just find it highly silly and overrated to sit around moping and crying for them when I'm not with one.

In my observations, women seem to do better navigating without much direction, when younger, than men. Which is why I stated mentorship from a male role model (brother, father, uncle) is always helpful.

One more thing to add, women do have better brains for communication, and discuss social dynamics earlier in life. (You should hear some of the conclusions my 6 year old cousin has already drawn) But I must also say, what they must navigate, (ie the skills they need to acquire) are much simpler, in the sense, they never have to navigate the approach vector. Which, I'd say is considerably more difficult then saying "No thanks"

women do have better brains for communication, and discuss social dynamics earlier in life.

you're essentializing. i have a better brain for communication and discussion of social dynamics than my gf and she's female and i'm male.

Well, look man, get a grip. the women of the WWE can certainly kick the living sh*t out of me, but in an aggregate sense men are physically stronger than women.
There's loads of neuroscientific basis to show women communicate better, earlier than their male counterparts.

have you seen the quirkyalone website?

*content sigh* I finally have a name.

*content sigh* I finally have a name.

sasha (the founder/website creator/writer) is a cool bean.

don't think that's what the women here were alluding to. They were alluding to the fact that desi men are intimidated by desi women that don't fit their "preconceived" notions of what desi women should be, and are taken aback when they engage in deviant activities, like talking, writing, and stepping outside of the kitchen. White men on the other hand, don't mind if their women talk, and give them roses and shit, so clearly they're preferable.

I don't think that's intimidation. I think that is a conscious choice on the part of men to be with a certain kind of woman, and as I said on an earlier post, I don't think this is a desi thing. All my male cousins in India are married to perfectly succesful women who may or may not know how to cook; my male cousins here are unmarried and don't necessarily date succesful women. I think it's an American thing, so maybe an ABCD thing by extension. White men are just as chauvenistic as desi men.

RE: ylrsings

fellow K-DIGZ in da house. Anyways, hey im a desi guy, not really an ABCD anymore, and im all for the outgoing desi girl. In fact, the more outgoing she is, the merrier. Gives a couple something to talk about. I hate guys who make their girls submissive, conform to indian stereotypes, blah blah blah. ylrsings...if i was older (im 21), u'd be just the type of girl that i wud like to be with. It makes a relationship exciting, if both of the partners are outgoing. Sadly, what i have found here...in southern cali...are desi girls that are a: wayyy to quiet or b: too stuck up for their own good. I still dont get the whole.."im daddie's little princess" act and i think most desi guys are sick and tired of it. I guess the middle ground is what most guys are after and ive met very few grounded and level headed desi women here in socal. Ive been in india for the past year (i moved there for med school-i know i know...but whatever i like it :D) and ive noticed some things about the whole dating scene. First, its not even open to the extent that it is here, even in the cosmo places. Second, FOB girls are really really reserved about dating, but they'll do it if u can get them to open up enough, which in itself is hard. Thirdly, FOB girls will flirt as good as anyone but usually, it never goes beyond that...its all a tease, lol. Another thing, Desi girls who are smart or wordly or outgoing or whatever...repress it. Dont do that!

Not all quiet desi girls are so because of some pressure to conform to traditional stereotypes of the "good Indian girl"...

To all the FOB guys out there, my personal experience has been that as an FOB it is a lot easier to get a white girl to date you than an ABD girl. I dont think that is my fault, cause i have also succesfully dated a few FOB girls. I think that ABD girls are inherently prejudiced against FOB guys (talk about desi unity). So word of advice. If you insist on marrying a desi girl, go after the ones from the mother land. You'll meet with a lot more success.

HMF wrote:

There's loads of neuroscientific basis to show women communicate better, earlier than their male counterparts.

that's just b/c girls/women have more to complain about and figured out a way to get it out of their system ;)

And hell, a penis is just one of so many things a guy can use, no?

Technophobic Geek, that's why I made a point of asking about the bedroom skills of American Desi males as well.

People laughed at my use of the word lingam, but it's just my habit to say that over penis, something I acquired in India, not from the tourists but from the literature and talks.

HMF -

I can understand your frustrations, but believe me, females also sometimes have to be the first ones to approach guys they are interested in and often times the first to initiate the first intimate contact. So we have those anxieties as well.

Other than reading some dating guide books or talking to friends for pointers, I don't really know what to tell you. It's a jungle out there.

Cultural and/or religious guilt can often play a major or minor role in wo/man's life in regards to dating and intimate relationships, especially if s/he is coming from a culture or sub-culture with a strong monastic core, as is common in various buddhist/hindu/christian cultures.

People laughed at my use of the word lingam, but it's just my habit to say that over penis, something I acquired in India, not from the tourists but from the literature and talks.

I think you meant to say,

"It's just my habit to say that over penis, something I acquired in India. As tourists, we get our language from literature and talks."

And where is Razib when he is most needed? ;)

No, Yeti, I meant to say what I said.

I'm not a tourist in India, fortunately or un-fortunately, depending on how you look at it.

I am a full fledged resident on my way to citizenship.

It is not un-common to hear the word "lingam" used in the Indian circles I move in.

Yes, it's in the literature we read also. If one reads those books in their original texts, the word comes up quite often.

Bidi-smoker -

Hey, I gave props to my Indian Desi lovers for being skillful in bed, and my British Desi friend gave props to her Desi men for having Burrito Supreme size lingams.

There is usually a trade-off with anything in this world..... can't always have our cake and eat it too, hai na?

Some advice to the young tykes who have commented here (from a happily married man nearing 40..)

To keep your marriage brimming,
With love in the loving cup,
Whenever you're wrong, admit it;
Whenever you're right, shut up.
-- Ogden Nash

I wish I didn't talk so much at parties.
It isn't that I want to hear
My voice assaulting every ear,
Uprising loud and firm and clear
Above the cocktail clatter.
It's simply, once a doorbells' rung,
(I've been like this since I was young)
Some madness overtake my tongue
And I begin to chatter.

Buffet, ball, banquet, quilting bee,
Wherever conversation's flowing,
Why must I feel it falls on me
To keep things going?
Though ladies cleverer than I
Can loll in silence, soft and idle,
Whatever topic gallops by,
I seize its bridle,
Hold forth on art, dissect the stage,
Or babble like a kindergart'ner
Of politics till I enrage
My dinner partner.

I wish I did'nt talk so much at parties.
When hotly boil the arguments,
Ah? would I had the common sense
To sit demurely on a fence
And let who will be vocal,
Instead of plunging in the fray
With my opinions on display
Till all the gentlemen edge away
To catch an early local
---Phyllis McGinley

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you

I can understand your frustrations, but believe me, females also sometimes have to be the first ones to approach guys they are interested in and often times the first to initiate the first intimate contact. So we have those anxieties as well.

Other than reading some dating guide books or talking to friends for pointers, I don't really know what to tell you. It's a jungle out there.

Cultural and/or religious guilt can often play a major or minor role in wo/man's life in regards to dating and intimate relationships, especially if s/he is coming from a culture or sub-culture with a strong monastic core, as is common in various buddhist/hindu/christian cultures.

I don't believe Im engaging in a discussion with you, but here goes.

First of all, if your understanding of my frustration is genuine, I thank you, but let it be known my frustration is not some outlier voice, it's shared by many. And don't worry about what to tell me, I had something happen that changed my system of beliefs entirely. Approach anxiety exists for humanity, but the difference is we live in a society that tells men, in order to be men, the onus is on us to overcome it.

No, Yeti, I meant to say what I said.

I'm not a tourist in India, fortunately or un-fortunately, depending on how you look at it.

I am a full fledged resident on my way to citizenship.

It is not un-common to hear the word "lingam" used in the Indian circles I move in.

Yes, it's in the literature we read also. If one reads those books in their original texts, the word comes up quite often.

I think you meant to say,

"I am a full fledged tourist on my way to citizenship."

Also acceptable would have been,

"I am a full fledged Orientalist on my way to citizenship."

yes. yes, I do.

I think you meant to say,

"I am a full fledged tourist on my way to citizenship."

Also acceptable would have been,

"I am a full fledged Orientalist on my way to citizenship."

Yeti, I am no fan of PG, but this is getting ridiculous.

No one here needs your "props".

bidi bhai...remember #359
ta ta.. of to see pet shop boys.. where there are west end girls..sinning...and people that are always on my mind ;)

Don't worry, I'm finished. Now that Bidismoker and I have found true love, my work here is done.