anand jon looks like fabio with that hair. a lion. paris in india? ugh. never been a fan of a gal who is famous for nothing besides being rich. after she cried when she heard her album i wanna see how much she cries when she sees real poverty in mumbai... oh wait.. she'll be whisked away to some 'exotic' suite at the leela palace i'm sure. duh. or is it the oberoi? ;)

Far too many (myself included) have used the "E-word" for our own personal benefit. Simply grab your latest novel by a desi written in english, for example, and read the description on the back. Look at the subject matter in many of these novels and the way it is "exoticized." We're doing it to ourselves, often making money on it, and we expect someone like Paris Hilton to know better?

*gag*

AJP says Julie Ann Titus says he's stinky (though possibly in an exotic way).

Inquiring minds want to know!

his deep involvement in the Yogic disciplines set a metaphysical yet playful flavor to all of his creations.

I can't think of another phrase to make this person sound even more full of himself. "...metaphysical yet playful..." Oy. And who exactly is the "indian stylish elite?" I take it my love of free t-shirts will not put me in the company of these people.

And I know I've asked this before, but I'll go ahead and ask it again 'cause I still haven't heard a satisfying answer. Why is the "e-word" so hated?

Hilton is well known in trendy Indian social circles

and CD copies of a notorious sex romp involving her and an ex-flame can be bought locally for as little as $2

And I know I've asked this before, but I'll go ahead and ask it again 'cause I still haven't heard a satisfying answer. Why is the "e-word" so hated?

Sriram, I tried to explain it to PG a while back, but maybe you already caught that and it's still not explained to your satisfaction. The negative connotation, as far as I can tell, was cultivated by the Orientalism discourse. First, it is literally othering, and, therefore, creates a binary (which is always bad news). Second, othering appropriates a certain identity (which implies essence) for the Self and imposes a certain one on the Other. These identity labels create a massive grea area of culture politics. Manish or the prof would probably be able to explain it better.

Thanks, Shruti, for the explanation. I missed the comment to which you linked and that answer makes perfect sense. Just judging by the comments on this site, it seems to be more of an issue with respect to women than it is with respect to men. I suppose it's because we are generally not hit on in public and thus we are not exoti-fied.

Paris Hilton is the ultimate drama queen. She revels in drama. She loves it. She is quite good at manipulating it. She is a businesswoman who is actually not in the red.

Dont take what she says too seriously. ;)

Mr. Jon developed a passion for metals and fabrics growing up in South India, under the tutelage of master artisans and his grandmother, one of the most influential women in his life. During these formative years, his deep involvement in the Yogic disciplines set a metaphysical yet playful flavor to all of his creations. Anand Jon often pays homage to his heritage, while also embracing the cosmopolitan vibe of New York City and the raging progress of modern technology.

That is one of the funniest paragraphs I have ever read!! Its BS to the nth power.

salil, i've met anand jon before when he designed clothing for some of my college fashion shows. not only does he stink, but he doesn't appear to bathe regularly and comes off as smarmy, greasy, deluded as to his own talents and just generally unpleasant.

Everyone, could we please refrain from commenting on Jon's odor? He reads SM and was quite upset about it last time. In general Haterade is never encouraged on SM. It is against the principles found in the Gita. Thanks.

"For her, India is the land of exotica and beauty. In fact, her response was: 'I finally get to visit the exotic'.

That's pretty deep coming from someone who didn't know who Tony Blair was on a recent British trip.

Just judging by the comments on this site, it seems to be more of an issue with respect to women than it is with respect to men. I suppose it's because we are generally not hit on in public and thus we are not exoti-fied.

You're exoticized less simply because of the basic gender dynamic of patriarchy, which exists everywhere, regardless of region, race or ethnicity. The fact that women are objectified far more than men is pretty basic knowledge, but exoticization is not only the othered woman's problem. Orientalism has a tendency to hypersexualize the Other, be it a man, woman, inanimate object, idea or any other entity. Hypersexualization has a way of engendering the subject. The "Oriental man" is either hypersexualized as a predator, which is beastializing, or he is "feminized" as a lesser male, which means he's unfit to take charge of "his" women. It speaks volumes on the presence of patriachy and racism and the gender of colored skin.

For instance, the guys on SM really get their feathers ruffled when PG exoticizes desi men. It's weird even for desi women to hear another woman talk about "exotic Indian men" because we're not used to seeing men objectified like that. That's a woman's place - to be exposed, displayed, examined, judged and intellectually possessed - and all on the basis of superficial features. It's degrading for anyone, but for men, it culturally disenfranchizes them to the level of women (which in patriarchy is a really bad thing). Historically speaking, this has always been the affect of Orientalism on the "Oriental man". So yeah, there's a lot going on with exoticization... :)

I wish, hope and pray that someone gets a picture of Paris getting garlanded and "tilak'ed". I mean, that would be, like, so hot! tee hee hee

Speaking of PG and "exotic" =)

Sriram, I tried to explain it to PG a while back, but maybe you already caught that and it's still not explained to your satisfaction. The negative connotation, as far as I can tell, was cultivated by the Orientalism discourse. First, it is literally othering, and, therefore, creates a binary (which is always bad news). Second, othering appropriates a certain identity (which implies essence) for the Self and imposes a certain one on the Other. These identity labels create a massive grea area of culture politics. Manish or the prof would probably be able to explain it better.

This is a relatively free country, therefore your use and definition of the "e" word can be different than mine, and that's OK.

For me, exotic was, is, and will continue to be something positive.

Like I said in another post, Angelina Jolie is exotic looking whereas Aiswarya Rai is not, in my opinion. So henceforth I should not be accused as exotifying desis. To me exotic means somebody is sultry, alluring, sexy and generally looks like they could be from any number of ethnic backgrounds, not really able to be pin-pointed or boxed in. Angelina fits that bill pretty much.

As far as the "banning" or whatever of Paris's video. Good on India! Is India missing something by not being able to watch it? Hardly. I believe in censorship of things that are not beneficial to the intellectual development of people. More than half of what passes as "entertainment" on American television would be censored/banned if I was dictator here.

That being said, I just rented WATER and cannot see what all the protests in India over this film were about. I mean, there were no violent or sexual scenes at all. It was pretty tame in that department compared to most "bollywood" films.

"There are many things left to be finalized," Jon continued. (from ToI). READ: a great PR spin to a non-existent campaign.

You're really going to tell me that Aishwarya is not sultry, alluring and sexy?

Sonia Kaur,

You're really going to tell me that Aishwarya is not sultry, alluring and sexy?

I'm confining my contribution to SM these days to "essential only" comments, but since you've mentioned Angelina Jolie I have to briefly respond here.

This is purely a personal opinion, but a woman genuinely being sexy has as much to do with her personality (probably more) as it does with how she looks. Looking stunning and striking various poses is fine, but whether she really is sexy in the real, palpable sense of the term is a factor of what she's like "on the inside", which obviously has a subtle and not-so-subtle effect on the outside too. These things can also affect the person's general demeanour and so on.

Angelina and Aishwarya are both on a similar level in the beauty stakes; however, Ms Rai has overdone it in terms of previously promoting a "giggly girly innocent" persona, which has had an effect on the credibility of her attempting to be sexy later on. So it can come across as a little fake and forced.

Angelina has had a fairly wild life in some aspects and comes across as a little more genuinely "knowing" both on-screen and during her various public appearances, including interviews. She tends to exude womanliness, with relatively little effort on her part (as far as we know). So all that plays a part too.

Hence the difference.

I guess if you wanted to compare an Indian woman with Aishwarya, a good candidate would be Bipasha Basu, who is also sexier than Ms Rai -- just her general personality and demeanour, I'm not just talking about her on-screen persona. Things may change with Aishwarya depending on her life-experience and how it affects her; a good male example would be Abhishek Bachchan, pre- and post-Karishma Kapoor. The whole thing's obviously made him grow up considerably and, along with the professional success he's simultaneously enjoyed, it's had a tremendously positive effect on his maturity, general persona and level of confidence.

That's all I wanted to say, but hopefully it's a positive contribution to the discussion from a male perspective. I'm bailing out now ;)

many, many years ago i went to a party hosted by anand jon in a downtown nyc club. i was chatting up a very pretty indian chick who introduced herself as anand's...mother. then she, according to my friend, tried to introduce me to her daughter but i was so discombobulated by the mom hit that i didn't get what was going on.

i do remember them being really nice though. anand himself strolled by and did one of those maneuvers where you talk to someone without looking at them. he's generally unpleasant, as many have noted, and someone very close to him--who shall go unnamed because he reads this site--described his unpleasantness as "so unnecessary".

'Exotic' is such a vague term, that to me it is more often (when you hear it on a recurring basis from old/drunk/generally unappealing men) an insult than a compliment. To the giver of the compliment, its an "oh wow, you are beautiful/stylish/pungent in a way that is not usual to my western idea/ls." To the receiver, it serves to remind us that we are not considered a part of western culture, no matter how we speak, what we wear, or how we smell.

I like the designs of Anand Jon, but to put them on Paris Hilton and have her present them to the 'Indian elite' seems as useful as throwing a pair of $10K diamond chandelier earrings on a wild hyena. Purely pointless. Paris, though I tend to feel sorry for her more often than not, is not a representative of American style. She is a representative of American sluttiness. If people in India don't know her as a socialite/songstress (because of the lack of InStyle-esque magazines and the non-airing of her video on tv) then they probably do know her from her 2 dollar train station-selling DVD. That,to me, seems like a poor style and marketing choice.

P.S. If you can't understand why 'Water' was controversial, think of it in conservative traditionalistic indian terms. Most times it is context, not content that matters.

Really Jai, 4 paragraphs addressing Aishwarya vs. Angelina - you are hilarious =)

By the way, my husband feels the exact same way as you so I've heard every "Angelina is hotter than Aishwarya" line there is. But I think I'm more drawn to Aishwarya because I think she covers more of a spectrum. I think she can look extremeley sexy but at the same time demure and gorgeous, like in Umrao Jaan or Devdas. I feel she's more of a complete woman in that sense and I like that she doesn't need to have a crazy, wild life in order to pull off sexy. And I'll give you the giggling thing, but she's repeatedly said that's her reaction to things when she's nervous - and hey, she's human and allowed to be nervous when on talk shows in another country =)

Also I like that she doesn't steal husbands ;-)

I agree that comments on Anand's odor should be expunged. Any comments on one's personal hygiene can be deeply hurtful.

I'm amazed how people who've met Anand have found him to be unpleasant. Wouldn't any celebrity give you the brush-off and be unpleasant if you tried to talk to them. Why pick on Anand?

I'm amazed how people who've met Anand have found him to be unpleasant. Wouldn't any celebrity give you the brush-off and be unpleasant if you tried to talk to them. Why pick on Anand?

Anands a celebrity?

Anyway, i met him maybe more than 10yrs ago so whatever fame he may have now he didn't have then. But i think you almost hit the nail on the head. the famous are obviously always being bothered by people in public therefore a brushoff is understandable. so i interpret anand's unpleasantness as way of creating the illusion of fame...as if he can't enter a restaurant without being noticed. fake it till you make it, they say.

No Pratik, celebs and their actions are defined by their reactions to the public. working in PR, I can tell you the truly professional ones do respect the fact the fans want to meet them. After all, you are only as good as your fans. And with the power of blogs and press, you wouldn't want to offend someone who can rant to the world. Perhaps the golden rule of marketing applies: a good story gets told to 3 people, a bad one to 15. An unnamed South Asian actor in Hollywood promised to send a kid a signed DVD of his latest flick. He never delivered. Needless to say, the kid is now running around telling everyone how he'll boycott his movies.

'Exotic' is such a vague term, that to me it is more often (when you hear it on a recurring basis from old/drunk/generally unappealing men) an insult than a compliment. To the giver of the compliment, its an "oh wow, you are beautiful/stylish/pungent in a way that is not usual to my western idea/ls." To the receiver, it serves to remind us that we are not considered a part of western culture, no matter how we speak, what we wear, or how we smell.

That's your opinion, based on your experience. Mine is different.

I was told that I am considered exotic in India. So it has nothing to do with "western ideals", in that context, rather, it would be "indian ideals" in that situation, I guess. I took it as a compliment because the way in which I use the word "exotic" is not negative, hence I perceived the comment in a non-negative light.

Aiswarya looks good in all the pics provided, yet I still find her stiff and un-sexy.

Not sure about Indian beats on her next album, as I'm not sure she knows a guitar from a grand piano. However, I am sure that we'll be treated to many sound bites pertaining to her fondness of and expertise on Indian culture. Wait for the generalisations and stereotypes to start flowing.

That being said, I just rented WATER and cannot see what all the protests in India over this film were about.

If you can't understand why 'Water' was controversial, think of it in conservative traditionalistic indian terms. Most times it is context, not content that matters.

Whatever photos I saw of the protesters were all of males. So that says something right there in and of itself.

That being said, if they actually saw the movie first, I doubt any would have protested.

The controversy was mostly political. The Hindutva part of the political spectrum felt it was portraying Hinduism negatively

If you remember, Deepa Mehta's previous film was about lesbians, and it really got under the skin of the Valentines Day Shop Smashers -- and so they had her as a target because of that. So when they learnt she was setting a movie in Varanasi about another 'sensitive' issue about Hindu life, they went apeshit. Hired a few goons to smash up the set, make death threats, the usual stuff.

Sonia Kaur,

Really Jai, 4 paragraphs addressing Aishwarya vs. Angelina - you are hilarious =)

Angelina always deserves a thorough workout response :)

I think she can look extremeley sexy but at the same time demure and gorgeous,

Aha, but you see Sonia bahenji, there's a difference between looking extremely sexy and being extremely sexy (even though there may often be an overlap between the two).

I think we'd better agree to disagree. This is probably just a male perspective vs. female perspective thing ;)

I also think I've done my bit to defend Angelina's honour, so I'm definitely bailing out of this thread now !

I think we'd better agree to disagree. This is probably just a male perspective vs. female perspective thing ;)

Hey I was the first to state it here and I'm female, so it's not just a male thing. Aiswarya does not exude sex appeal in the least in my opinion, while Angelina does. And I know nothing of either of their personal lives really, so it's not about what is portrayed as "wild" about either one of them via the media. I've only seen one of Angelina's films also.

As far as sexy Indian actresses;
a. Rekha (at 50 she's sexier than 20 something bollywood babes)
b. Shabana Azmi
c. Rani Mukherjee with that raspy voice of hers

Sonia Kaur:

You're really going to tell me that Aishwarya is not sultry, alluring and sexy?

Yeah, I'm with you, Jai Singh. I agree, Aish is a beautiful woman. But I have very little desire to sling her over my shoulder and carry her off to bed and try to get her to make cat noises. That, to me, is the purest definition of sexy. Angelina, on the other hand, is a crazy wild woman who will leave scars. She's bad news, she's hell on wheels, she has tats and wore Billy Bob's blood in a vial around her neck, but she's incredibly sexy.

I think we'd better agree to disagree.

Agreed. I mean, disagreed. =)

Cannot believe y'all...

Nandita Das...anyone??????

Sexy,Exotic,Gorgeous,Alluring,Ooomph factor... NOT to mention Brainy,Intellectual,SocialActivist,Feminist,...

Yeah I think Nandita is sexy too.

Now, what about the men?

JOHN ABRAHAM. Enough said.

1. Lara Dutta
2. Priyanka Chopra
3. Rani Mukherjee
4. Lisa Ray

Ever watch those old Indian movies where the heros have tons of makeup on and their eyebrows and lips are well defined and they look like flaming heezras? Those crack me up. And they are wooing women who totally fall for them and roll around in haystacks with men who look more effeminate than they do?

Weird. But very nostalgic.

Yeah, I'm with you, Jai Singh. I agree, Aish is a beautiful woman. But I have very little desire to sling her over my shoulder and carry her off to bed and try to get her to make cat noises. That, to me, is the purest definition of sexy. Angelina, on the other hand, is a crazy wild woman who will leave scars. She's bad news, she's hell on wheels, she has tats and wore Billy Bob's blood in a vial around her neck, but she's incredibly sexy.

leaves more for me. i bet ash isnt sane when y0u t@ke 0ff her cl0thes...

suraj:

nadita das is awesome..
brains and beauty ;)

Also I like that she doesn't steal husbands ;-)

Sonia, you don't know what went on behind closed doors.

May be Brad was just fed up with the Aniston's career priorities over family. You can not believe all tabloids. Frankly, I feel Angelina and Brad make a cute couple. Aniston and Brad looked more like twins.

rani mukherjee looks horrible sans makeup.. scary... like oprah without hers on... YIKES!

Now, what about the men?

JOHN ABRAHAM. Enough said.

John always looked like a Milind Soman wannabe to me. He seems to be trying to hard...uggh!!

You can not believe all tabloids. Frankly, I feel Angelina and Brad make a cute couple. Aniston and Brad looked more like twins.

And of course, the strength and stability of all relationships can be based on how cute two people look together. =)

rani mukherjee looks horrible sans makeup

And her voice is horrible! Like she spends all her time smoking ... if I ever heard her voice in the middle of the night, I'd be scared. I do think she's pretty when made up and not speaking though =)

sex appeal and attractiveness is an individual opinion. that said, from my female perspective, i think that aishwarya is more beautiful, but angelina has more sex appeal. and no girl touches bipasha when it comes to sexiness. damn!

re: the "e" word, it's all about context. when it's coming up in intellectual conversation, it more often than not comes across as a polarizing term, with all the historical baggage that's been discussed on this thread. but when talking about boys telling a girl, "damn, you look real exotic," it's more of his tone and body language that makes this term acceptable, like if a guy tells a girl that he thinks she's sexy. if some drunk frat boy yells at you in a bar that you look exotic, it's probably gonna rub you the wrong way (basically any "compliment" that someone in that mindset says is going to rub you the wrong way). but if you're some white guy travelling in india and you meet bipasha basu and she says, "you have a really exotic look," i don't think the guy's gonna take it as an insult. the word probably does get more ill use out of it than any well-meaning compliment, but i'm not against the term completely like others on this board.

ps- my cousins back in india use the term all the time (especially the guys) when they see pictures of my multicultural friends, and i know that they mean it to be unconventional (to them) beauty.

rani mukherjee looks horrible sans makeup.. scary... like oprah without hers on... YIKES!

I agree...and everytime I hear her, I feel like mailing her some cough drops.

Plus she used to be so chubby. It is good she lost some weight, but I still don't think of her as attractive.

Yeah, I'm with you, Jai Singh. I agree, Aish is a beautiful woman. But I have very little desire to sling her over my shoulder and carry her off to bed and try to get her to make cat noises. That, to me, is the purest definition of sexy.

I'm with you on that Salil.

Sexy = looks like they are good in bed.

Compare for instance John Abraham http://www.coolbuddy.com/wallpapers/indceleb/john22.htm to Anil Kapoor http://www.nowrunning.com/gallery/stills.asp?artistID=117&n=1&cnt=5

Anil Kapoor looks like the dudh-walla in Brahmin Mohalla of Aligarh or Something-or-Other-Pur. One wouldn't expect those men to be particularly skilled in bed, though who knows? Maybe the Venus Butterfly Technique is not completely un-beknownst to them.

John on the other, looks like he breeds butterflies.

And of course, the strength and stability of all relationships can be based on how cute two people look together. =)

I didn't say that their relationship was stable at all. Celebrity marraiges hardly are (eg. Nick Lachey and Jessica Simpson). But in my opinion, they look cute together. That doesn't mean that they will be together forever.

My favorite topic...where do I begin.

Anand Jon...

Firstly I find absolutely nothing creative about his work or his designs. They are paltry at best and not well made. I could pick up a ghagra (his first collection had many) out of a local village in Baroda and get better workmanship and originality than the crap he charges $4K for. There is nothing "original" about a line of expensive jeans. For the amount of money you pay at least have the quality and fit like Seven or Citizens. My $30 jeans from the Gap fit my ass far better.

Secondly Jon is going to follow the path of Sandy Dalal. Remember golden boy. Where is he now? The fact that Jon showed at Metropolitan Pavalion for Sp07 and not the tent is a big indication. And packed house as some reports might say. I say more NOT!!

Thirdly (and this is for Pratik Patil)...I've met more than a fair share of celebrities and Anand is pretty high up there in terms of just downright rude just cause. He is what I call and unqualified Diva. Paris Hilton earned it. Anand Jon...I don't think so. He prefers to surround himself with an entourage of asskissers like most divas do but I say it's justified with JLo but AJ I don't think so!

FOURTHLY...as if there is such a thing...Paris Hilton lending her name need not immediately guarantee a success. Jessica Simpson crap sells at Wal-mart at a discount now. It's a perfect example of 'needless sexy' image from the "now hot" fashionista doesn't mean jack. What pulls you thru in the long term is appealing to the average woman, having marketable looks and above and beyond anything else workmanship. When you pay boatloads of $$ for these items the workmanship should be impeccable.

That's that...

Nor does reporting in magazines mean that Brad did not cheat on Jennifer.

Watch out - I'm a celebrity gossip addict - you don't want to get me started.

(i'm kidding .. relax)

(not kidding about being a celebrity gossip addict though)

Nor does reporting in magazines mean that Brad did not cheat on Jennifer.

Sonia, it is very debatable. I really don’t think we can judge anyone without knowing all the details and I have heard all different stories about the Aniston-Brad-Jolie saga. I am with Team Jolie on this one ;)

Watch out - I'm a celebrity gossip addict - you don't want to get me started.

Me too…I can go for hours and hours about this useless topic.

He is what I call and unqualified Diva. Paris Hilton earned it. Anand Jon...I don't think so.

Wait, Paris earned it? How? The video?

Re: exotic.

Exotic definitely implies "otherness." To some, exotic also means erotic, because it seems to go hand in hand with the truism, you can only love that which you do not fully understand, and exotic has undertones of the mysterious as well as the sublime. It also implies a lack of deeper understanding of the object in question, or maybe worse, an unwillingness to understand that which you consider exotic. Many people who pursue the exotic are frequently disappointed when they attain it.

Also I like that she doesn't steal husbands ;-)

You don't know that. You just know that she doesn't keep them after or get caught, right?

Wait, Paris earned it? How? The video?

I'm with Salil. I mean that was complete and total IP theft - she didn't earn a dime off of her masterful performance. I'm still outraged about that ....

Desi Exotica

http://www.coolbuddy.com/wallpapers/indceleb/john11.htm

.........oh yeah.

Wait, Paris earned it? How? The video?

She's a fashionista, brings in dough for any designer she wears, a socialite and rich and makes for "news" all the time. I don't care for her but yeah in terms of "celebrity" she's earned it. Who the heck is Anand Jon? Now please for christs sake (and he isn't even my god) lets not get into the semantics of what a "celebrity" is.

Has anyone here seen that one night in paris video?

I can't imagine her being sexy, exotic, erotic at all. She's un-attractive on all levels - physically, mentally, verbally... or is that all just an act?

You just know that she doesn't keep them after or get caught, right?

Which would make her even cooler! =)

JOAT: sandy dalal.. oh... you bring back old memories.. heck he was hot ;).. dunno where he is now... i guess all these designers are very ephemeral..

and rani... yucky voice...not attractive...

aish vs. angelina...

aish is gorgeous...angelina has more 'sex' appeal..
team aniston vs team jolie is another matter.. i heard through the hollywood grapevine that be, that they were having trouble in their marriage pre mr & mrs smith days..

Desi Exotica

http://www.coolbuddy.com/wallpapers/indceleb/john11.htm

Dude,

Just cuz you think it's cool to be white and called exotic in India doesn't mean it's cool to come on a desi blog and objectify desi men by labeling the men as 'desi exotica.

There's a difference between "expressing your opinion" and being aware and respectful of the opnions of your peers, which have been made apparant throughout the 60 comment thread.

Anyone else perturbed? Or is it just me?

She's un-attractive on all levels - physically, mentally, verbally...

To women perhaps, but you are not part of the demographics she appeals to, men love her, women love to hate her...whatever it is....she's always in the news. She's skinny, her skin and hair is always perfect and she wears all the latest designs well. Who cares what she has to say?

What? Someone said Rani Mukherjee was "chubby"?

See what those anorexic euro models have done to the Indian mindset?

The woman is curvaceous.

And in that movie Hey Ram she was not wearing much makeup coz she was playing a traditional Bengali Bou. And she still looked good. Her face is not as stiffly and pristinely pretty as Aiswarya's, but she has sex appeal over her heaps and bounds.

She's what we would call "cute and sexy", while Aiswarya is pretty and boring.

Anyone else perturbed? Or is it just me?

Probably just you and a few other women.

I've never heard men object to being thought of as "exotic".

Especially if they know it means "sexy" to the woman calling them that.

i'm no paris lover, but i completely agree with janeofalltrades. anyone who can get that much publicity and fame with what little talent she has... she's earned her dubious celebrity status.

To women perhaps, but you are not part of the demographics she appeals to, men love her, women love to hate her...whatever it is....she's always in the news. She's skinny, her skin and hair is always perfect

Her hair and makeup are often tacky looking, as well as her fashion style.

Her features are un-attractive and she has no curves. None of the men I know find her attractive at all.

maybe this whole usage of the word "exotic" discussion isn't about the word's actual meaning, but what people think it means. are most people that use it thinking it means sexy? in the context of what was said re: paris and anand jon, it seems like they were defining exotic with the historical connotations that make the word controversial. but i'm talking about when someone calls someone else exotic. do they mean sexy? do they think the words are interchangable? maybe the questions here is not whether or not use of the term is offensive, but that the word needs to be properly defined in society.

What? Someone said Rani Mukherjee was "chubby"?

See what those anorexic euro models have done to the Indian mindset?

The woman is curvaceous.

Relax, PG. Rani Mukerjee looks sexy to you and kudos to that.

To me, she really isn't all that.

Look what those anorexic euro models have done to Rani Mukherjee. She has lost a lot of weight in KANK. I guess Rani felt she needed to loose some weight too.

Her hair and makeup are often tacky looking, as well as her fashion style.

Her features are un-attractive and she has no curves. None of the men I know find her attractive at all.

I agree. Paris looks manly when compared to her sister. Her sister has far better fashion sense and is easy on the eyes.

Paris on the other hand looks like an indian version on Hijra.

paris is like a mosquito.. a pest.. stinging everything she gets hold of...and glorifies her 'celebritydom'.. hell anyone can become a celebrity these days...her fame too will pass... i'm surprised it hasn't already.. but the clock is ticking....

http://www.coolbuddy.com/wallpapers/indceleb/john06.htm

http://www.coolbuddy.com/wallpapers/indceleb/john01.htm

How come I never meet guys who look like this?

Bahout durbhagya hoon.
Kya karoon yaar?

Aish is a home breaker afterall. From http://www.thesaturdaypost.com/gossip.htm

Aishwarya...a home breaker?

According to a story in the Gulf Times, Miss Rai has destroyed the gentleman pictured on the right. So obsessed is he with Ash, that he's been spending ALL his cash, on gaudy dresses that have Ash herself printed or embroidered on them. The man earns about 10,000 riyal per month, but spends them all on creating these not-for-sale dresses for the Bollywood Queen. He does not send any money to his family (wife and two daughters). When he goes back to India, he doesn't see his family but plots himself outside Ms. Rai's home to see if she would consent to meet him and try on one of the dresses. Now, someone needs to tell this Mr. Sultan that nobody wears their OWN face on their dresses. Maybe he'd be better off wearing these dresses himself!! For heaven's sake man, get a life and treat your wife and children with some respect and issue a prompt divorce. What a horror story the wife's life must be with this gentleman.

I always thought John Abraham's nose looked kind of weird though, like he had a nose job or something, coz it doesn't really suit his facial structure.

He's still father f***ing hot in any case.

Amir Khan also scores high on the sex appeal-ometer.

Shah Rukh Khan is cute, but too geeky acting to be considered sexy, in my opinion.

I'd still sleep with him though.

It's rumored in India that he's bisexual.

Actually I take that back. I would only sleep with SRK if he was single, which he isn't.

Aish is a home breaker afterall.

Oh no! There's a man obsessed with Aishwarya?? How dare she be beautiful!

(Oops, I think I just did some troll feeding)

Pardesi Gori, I go back and forth between grudgingly acknowledging your knowledge about India to at times loathing what you say, but I have to ask...can you speak fluent Hindi? With an authentic desi accent? And I mean FLUENT, not just half-ass. Because, in the words of Paris Hilton herself, that would be HOT.

PG - is this you?

Shah Rukh Khan is cute, but too geeky acting to be considered sexy, in my opinion.

I'd still sleep with him though.

It's rumored in India that he's bisexual.

I heard from a reliable source that he is gay. Ask no more ;)

I heard from a reliable source that he is gay. Ask no more ;)

Really? So who is his partner? Anyone aam junta would know?

Sonia;

ewwwww... those girls are tacky looking.
I don't dress tacky, at least I don't think so.

Amitabh, my hindi is suffering right now due to being away from India and hindi speakers for over a year. But when I was speaking it regularly, the hindi wallas said my accent was "cent per cent" like theirs. Mind you, I don't speak with a Delhi walla accent. Mine is like UP street talk.

Well, now I'm working for an Indian hindi walla and he is again re-freshing my hindi abilities. I've always got him in stitches doing my UP saas/bahu routine. And the dulhan on her suhaag raat.

Gay? He has a wife and kid. So that would make him bisexual, right? Maybe not.

Why, Karan Johar of course!

Karan Johar is openly gay?

Rani Mukherjee,

YOU dear, are my beautiful Dona Isabel Cobos de Porcel. Yes, you heard me right. Francisco Goya's masterpiece embodies your spirit, look, grace, and curves. Particularly the curves. Dames of that era were considered prized beauties for their scrumptious healthy bodies.

Can you really blame them? The consequences of not having that extra 'oomph' when it came to fighting infectious disease were dire (WHICH was the number one killer till about a 100 years ago, now its old people illnesses like heart disease and cancer. How lame). So, anyway, as I understand a healthy looking woman [AKA excess lipid reserves] was looked upon as a desirable characteristic. Putting myself in the shoes of an honorable gentleman from that time, upon hearing names like "bubonic plague" or "tuberculosis" fear would strike my heart. Only way to protect my future offspring against the scourge would be to impregnate a woman with impenetrable natural defenses. The ability to maintain energy reserves to use for a rainy day would be critical to the success of my genetic line.

Interesting ideas, no? However, we do not live in the 1800's. Thankfully, modern scientists have created a plethora of drugs that attack and destroy vermin. No longer are men limited to characters like Isabel who previously had monopoly over men from good families such as myself. WE ARE LIBERATED. Those women, who had not received an iota of attention as a result of their inability to hold onto prized lipids are now having a field day. Lately, the tables seem to be turning where this idea of "we are even better than men" has gone to these lightweights head, but that will change and so can you.

Time has come to turpentine the canvas clean and paint a new portrait that reflects the realities of today. Isabel no more! I believe a better depiction of your potential would be found in quality publications such as Playboy, Maxim, and Stuff. This will take hard work, an open mind, starvation, and possibly vomit and drugs. Honey, you CAN DO IT.

Ultimately the choice is yours: Either it's Dona Isabel Cobos de Porcel or it's Heidi Klum. Either you can be the fantasy of voyeuristic dead ghosts who have been masturbating to women like yourself for eons, or you can be the fantasy of the living and bring much pleasure to your's truly.

Sincerely,
GujuDude

No ... but isn't is just assumed that he's gay?

Ultimately the choice is yours: Either it's Dona Isabel Cobos de Porcel or it's Heidi Klum. Either you can be the fantasy of voyeuristic dead ghosts who have been masturbating to women like yourself for eons, or you can be the fantasy of the living and bring much pleasure to your's truly.

In my experience ALOT of men prefer women with more meat on their bones. I believe this has already been discussed here on SM.

Especially the men I prefer (of a certain ethnic background).

Its proportion that counts. How the body is proportioned. A thin but proportioned woman will look better than a larger non-proportioned one, and a larger proportioned woman better than a thin non-proportioned one.

Same goes for men.

I had a real thing for skinny and effeminate looking guys as a teenager, but as I matured as a woman, my preference changed for bigger, more built guys, even if they have a few extra pounds, no problem. I like something to grab onto and make me feel warm like I'm under a big warm blanket.

Ultimately what really matters is what's on the inside and how two people "vibe" together. But if we are talking solely looks, which we are here, then proportion and curves are the key for women, and masculine build is the thing for men.

I think Rani looked better when she was heavier.

No ... but isn't is just assumed that he's gay?

He's assumed to be gay by whom? Indians in India or Indians outside of India?

Anyone who's seen him walk and talk?

Anyone who's seen him walk and talk?

Totally a western perspective. Ever been to Uttar Pradesh? At least half the men act very effeminate, yet I doubt all of them are gay, maybe half though.

Ever been to Uttar Pradesh? At least half the men act very effeminate, yet I doubt all of them are gay, maybe half though.

Anyone else thinks the level of dicussion on SM has lately taken a nosedive? I've seen my share of crappy discussions on SM, but this has to be the pits.

I don't think so, culturo-socio-sexual theory is very interesting.

Good God, that was a joke.

Seriously folks, "Whatever floats your boat"; "To each your own"...

Just cuz you think it's cool to be white and called exotic in India doesn't mean it's cool to come on a desi blog and objectify desi men by labeling the men as 'desi exotica.

Agreed. And the objection that "men don't mind" is bullshit, b/c you're impacting all of us with your presence and words. I mind. Taz minds. That matters, even though we don't have penises. That whole line of reasoning annoys me...what, so if you can flirt your way out of this situation, that makes it all okay? No.

There's a difference between "expressing your opinion" and being aware and respectful of the opnions of your peers, which have been made apparant throughout the 60 comment thread.

I think part of what makes me distinctly uncomfortable about this situation, Pardesi Gori, is that I feel that on some level, we're forced to give you carte blanche to behave passive-aggressively or say whatever borderline offensive thing you want, b/c if we react negatively (as we would in a Mumbai minute if you were desi!), then we're being mean to the white girl and we're evil. How dare we. Then WE look bad, which sucks b/c I think our concerns (as well as those which have been expressed to me on back channels or IRL from our readers) are valid.

I've gone on record about how I want this blog to have a diverse audience AND be a safe, happy, comfy place for all brownz...but I feel like my hospitality is getting slightly abused here, by a situation which leaves me in an impossible place.

Anyone else perturbed? Or is it just me?

Yup and nope. I feel you, kid.

Speaking of exotification ...

Some of the most beautiful men I have ever seen are Sardars in Delhi.

Wow!

Classic Indian good looks. By that I mean the stuff that is described in Indian poetry;

lotus petal shaped eyes (kamal nayan)

eyebrows shaped like the bows of cupid

long flowing (often curly) black hair, like Krishna

tall, regal, "warrior-like" build

lips as red as bimba fruits

elegant fashion sense

Really, many of them look like those paintings, you all know the ones I'm talking about.

Sigh.

Well, its pretty well known in most of Mumbai's "Gay Bombay" community that SRK and Johar have something going on. On Johar's TV show "Koffee with Karan", an Oprah style talk show, Johar mentioned SRK in EVERY SINGLE EPISODE, even when there were a slew of other guests. I think he asked one of the guests if they preferred SRK or Salman Khan once, and they cheekily replied, "You tell us, Karan". Also, Karan has made sure to include some gay innuendos in some of his movies (i.e. Kal Ho Na Ho and others)...its just one of those things, and I don't think it has to do with SRK being effeminate. He seems fairly manly without being over the top, like Salman Khan. Hello testosterone!

There was this big controversy when he appeared in a bubble bath with a very questionable ponytail ( http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/catalyst/2005/09/29/stories/2005092900160300.htm

At least half the men act very effeminate, yet I doubt all of them are gay, maybe half though.

My understanding is that there's only one gay person in India, generally referred to as The Gay.

If a girl walked up to me and called me exotic, I'd say who are you trying to oppress, you white devil! Then I'd put my fist in the air to express brown pride and solidarity.

Unless she's hot. Then I would have to strike a blow for my brown brothers everywhere by objectifying her and demeaning her sexually.

On second thought, neither option sounds good. If someone called me exotic, I would probably respond with "Maybe to you, you close-minded redneck." Then I would move on and forget about it.

Anyone else thinks the level of dicussion on SM has lately taken a nosedive? I've seen my share of crappy discussions on SM, but this has to be the pits.

Yes. And yes.

I don't think so, culturo-socio-sexual theory is very interesting.

IMO, that's not what this is, at all. It's insipid "Team Jolie vs. Team Pitt-cheering", "which Bollywood tart (whom I don't give two shits about) is hotter?"-arguing, "who is sexy?" time-suckage. I haven't learned anything from this thread, which stopped being interesting to me once the Anand Jon talk (which was TOPICAL, unlike most of the rest) stopped.

As for interesting theories, here's one of mine: throwing jargon atop what you personally prefer in bed doesn't make the Baby Jesus cry any less.

Against any judgement gotta say;

You know, some, or should I say enough Desi men are ok with a little bit of a "oh indian guys are hot" thing. Why not? Its all in fun for the most part. I'm sure you Desi women have enjoyed that kind of thing at one point. It beats being Mr Math-is-fun. We kind of deserve our day in the sun too. I'm sure some Desi women get kind of happy to hear, like on the News Tab that an Indian woman was judged to be the hottest lawyer, but if you notice, its rare for Desi men to get the same kind of thing. I think its got more to do with that social power is held not by goris, but goras. The other alternative is that Desi men are just not as attractive in their way as Desi women. Is anyone going to go there? :-). Hope not, but on the other hand it would be an interesting discussion.

I think this topic, secretley occupies a lot more people's minds than let on

Hey I wrote that above post before reading Anna's. So I wasn't trying to egg anyone on.

Anyway, I think way too much analysation is going into me and what I write.

I was reading a book on that just yesterday, people who anylyze too much.

I already clarified that exotic to me carries no negative connotations so that when I use the word (which I rarely do), it's in a positive light.

Also, I rarely call desis "exotic", so I don't see why desis are getting riled.

I've not called anyone on SM exotic. Not saying that you all aren't attractive...

Anyway, guys, if a woman calls you "exotic", does that make you feel bad?

If you know beforehand that she means it has a compliment, this day and age's uber-compliment of "sexy" - would you still be offended?

I'd like to hear from the men.

Anyone else thinks the level of dicussion on SM has lately taken a nosedive? I've seen my share of crappy discussions on SM, but this has to be the pits.

You must have missed the micro-lingam discussion. We're on an upswing.

I haven't learned anything from this thread, which stopped being interesting to me once the Anand Jon talk (which was TOPICAL, unlike most of the rest) stopped.

Anna, lots of people responded to rude comments made towards your last post (the punjabi/amharic one) that if someone did not like the post, they don't have to read it. Once something starts to get boring to us, better we not go back and read it again and again.

Anna, lots of people responded to rude comments made towards your last post (the punjabi/amharic one) that if someone did not like the post, they don't have to read it. Once something starts to get boring to us, better we not go back and read it again and again.

I wish your advice were applicable to my situation; however, like every other blogger here, I have to monitor these threads, so I don't have the luxury of avoiding them, not while they occur in our "house".

Your comment doesn't work for another reason; the situations aren't analogous. People were criticizing MY WRITING and my choice of TOPICS. I did not do that to Taz, at all. In fact, *I* started writing this exact post yesterday, so I obviously have no quibble with the content or the blogger who put it out there.

I was agreeing with another commenter that this thread was starting to decay. As a MODERATOR here, that's entirely within my rights, if not expected of me. I'd rather play sheepdog than shut an entire thread down-- I'm sure most of you would prefer that, too. Minor adjustments mean the party keeps grooving.

The other alternative is that Desi men are just not as attractive in their way as Desi women. Is anyone going to go there? :-).

I'll go there.

Hope not, but on the other hand it would be an interesting discussion.

It would.

I think this topic, secretley occupies a lot more people's minds than let on

It does.

Anyway, it is said by many that Indian women tend to be better looking than their menfolk, but this is not entirely true.

Like I wrote above, Sardars in Delhi compromise a large percentage of very good looking men, and I've seen some of the most handsome men I've ever laid eyes on in India.

Alright, count me on record. I dont like to be called exotic.
I used this line before elsewhere, but I prefer to be squarely mainstream.

Maybe those men didnt mind when PG called them exotic because of she considers herself exotic in a foreign land. They dont want to upset her and 'hopes' to get into her pants.

Maybe those men didnt mind when PG called them exotic because of she considers herself exotic in a foreign land. They dont want to upset her and 'hopes' to get into her pants.

I've never called any man exotic looking to his face. Those I found to be exotic looking were strangers to me and we did not talk.

Generally the men I talk to are not exotic looking, unfortunately for me.

Apologies but I'm going to address this not to Pardesi Gori but about her. I think she does sometimes over-step the lines by being rude and generalizing. If we were not an in a better place as Desis in the Diaspora, I think what she would say, to me at least, would sometimes grate. But, at this point its all right. I do not by any stretch of the imagination agree with her much of the time. And I do think sometimes there is a bending over backward a bit to accomodate her views. I would say that not because her views are especially anathema, but because they fall outside the consensus of the blog, which I think is unforunately always as important if not more important a criteria of any opinion's validity.

But, thats all just to say, I also think Angelina Jolie is very hot (absurdity at the end of the comment seemed appropriate)

Anyway, it is said by many that Indian women tend to be better looking than their menfolk, but this is not entirely true.

I know, its been said by near and dear friends. Doesn't make it true? But yeah, let the flood gates open on what's really real in terms of the Other, racism, patriarchy and the aesthetic of the normative

:-)

I wonder, what would the Gita have to say about all this?

Those who know this truth, whose consciousness is unified, think always, "I am not exotic" While seeing or hearing, touching or smelling; eating, moving about, or sleeping; breathing or speaking, letting go or holding on, even opening or closing the eyes, they understand that these are only the movements of the senses among sense objects. [Link]

Abhi, that's hot.

Regardless of how it's taken by the receiver, I've never heard the word "exotic" used as anything but as a compliment by the giver. Even in the article quoted, it's clear that the author is trying to be complimentary of Indian beauty. Not everyone is familiar with the history of orientalism and othering, so to me the intention matters much more than the technical definition of the term.

Clearly, the commonly understood connotation of the word "exotic" is positive. If someone says they have an exotic car, you usually think they have a fancy sports car like a lambourghini.

From American Heritage, the definition of "exotic"
1. From another part of the world; foreign: exotic tropical plants in a greenhouse. See Synonyms at foreign. [clearly India is foreign]
2. Intriguingly unusual or different; excitingly strange: “If something can be explained simply, in a familiar way, then it is best to avoid more exotic explanations” (Chet Raymo). See Synonyms at fantastic. [clearly India is fantastic]
3. Of or involving striptease: an exotic dancer. [clearly this definition of the word was not being used]

exoticism is like affirmative action

And yet, the word exotic can be hurtful. I have mixed heritage friends, and they do not usually like being called exotic, because it makes them feel apart from a group they feel they belong to. If you are mixed filipino and korean, for example, and you consider yourself to be a part of both communities, I'm guessing you would not like it if either a korean or filipino person called you "exotic" since it would imply they judge you, and judge you to be worth but not to be the same as them.

However, I know I am not european american and if a european american calls me exotic, in certain circumstances it would not offend. For example if it was said only once or a few times, and once she got to know me she stopped refering me primarily as "exotic". It would be unrealistic to think that if two people are in a relationship and they are different ethnicities, it would never come up, but it would not be cool if it was a basis of a relationship.

That being said, I think the passage above from the Gita is truly getting right to the heart of the matter

Pardesi Gori is a foul race-baiter. Yes, she peppers her speech with Sanskrit, and never misses an opportunity to show off her knowledge of Hinduism. However, all this doesn't obscure the fact that she's only interested in India as the "racial other." She fools many people into thinking that she speaks frankly and innocently. But, really, all she does is make grating pronouncements (which are either obvious or false) about India, which she then immediately backs up with back-handed compliments, usually of a sexual nature, about Indian men. I don't see any difference between what she's doing and what's done by white men who only like submissive Asian females, or by whites who put on black-face to "celebrate" African-American culture.

Thing is, she's already been banned several times, with good reason. But she keeps changing her IP address and her commenting handle