I dare the “We’re not South Asian” contingent to tell me that what happened to Shahid Amber isn’t their problem.

come on siddhartha...

this is a sad post ... why must we go there and bring up the ill feelings from that other post here?

i feel awful for this guy and any HUMAN being should as well

have to second rani. not everyone who doesn't use the term south asian to identify themselves personally or is not that fond of it (but doesn't really object to it vehemently) is hard-hearted and blind to the fact that it could have been any one of us on that street. wishing shahid a full recovery and i hope his family can recover from being traumatised in such a brutal fashion. i also hope the perpetrators are prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I dare the “We’re not South Asian” contingent to tell me that what happened to Shahid Amber isn’t their problem.

I second Rani 100% (comment #.1)

If you had read mine, rissible, sakshi, amitabh, and many many other's comments on the other thread, you would not made this statement. You are mixing issues.

FYI: About a year ago, there was a little girl in Pakistan who had a serious heart ailment, and she had an emergency operation in Bangalore. All the protocols were broken in red-tape loaded society like India. Miracle, isn't it - protocols being broken. During Kashmir earthquake, there was real concrete collaboration (somewhat seriously dysfunctional though) between India and Pakistan.

But implying that one should feel pulls on thier desi heart strings doesn't preclude the human aspect. Hate-crimes, and I have only recently been persuaded that the special category is relevant, is violence against a group and motivated by a presumed weakness/inferiority of that victim-group. That presumption can be falsified by projecting a strong/positive/united/etc group identity...or several of these.

I dare the “We’re not South Asian” contingent to tell me that what happened to Shahid Amber isn’t their problem

Can we let some more facts come out before we start pointing fingers. Yes this is bad for the guy who was beaten up and could happen to anyone of us Indians, but I would like to know if these kids were just some drunk idiots, had some old grudges that they wanted to settle. I also want the jewish kids to have a chance to give their side of the story.

I dare the “We’re not South Asian” contingent to tell me that what happened to Shahid Amber isn’t their problem.

Dude, this simply isn't cool. Just as Abhi and Anna explained earlier one can have dual identities and they aren't mutually exclusive, the people getting hate crimes commited upon them aren't ALL from the subcontinental brown population. OBVIOUSLY, post 9-11 it has increased and there is common ground ON THAT ISSUE.

A coptic Egyptian was also killed post 9-11. Others, including folks from the med. sea area have had slurs/crimes committed upon them. Someone with an Indian identity, who may not consider themselves South Asian may have this commited upon them. It is their problem - as it is a bangledeshi American's, Pakistani American, Arab American (or just first generation immigrants from those communities that haven't developed a pan-brown-south Asian identity).

Folks with different identities can converge on this issue, EVEN IF THEY DON'T FEEL THE SOUTH ASIAN solidarity on other things. Using this issue to throw berate others who don't feel South Asian simply isn't cool.

This South Asian thing gets preachy, just as the South Asian doesn't exist gets defensive. Let this thing grow organically, without each side telling the others what they should be.

I would like to know if these kids were just some drunk idiots, had some old grudges that they wanted to settle. I also want the jewish kids to have a chance to give their side of the story.

I don't think we're missing any "side" of the story. ADL has even come forward and condemned this as a heinous hate crime. What more do you need to know?

I dare the “We’re not South Asian” contingent to tell me that what happened to Shahid Amber isn’t their problem.

Baba it's very much my problem but I don't see why I have to make common cause with Shahid's identity as a result or because some punks may not know their head from their ass. Not everyone's objection to the SA tag is about hate.

Horrifying and sad story.

Hate-crime charges have been filed against a group of Orthodox Jewish teenagers

Good reporting Siddhartha. That they are Jewish is, at the very least, plausibly relevant. The MSM is giving this fact a prominent position in their reporting, as a simple googling of Shahid Amber proves. But google french riots and something's missing.

I dare the “We’re not South Asian” contingent to tell me that what happened to Shahid Amber isn’t their problem

Very clever. You realize you're asking people to let the bigot define them. But I don't really have a better solution.

I also want the jewish kids to have a chance to give their side of the story.

????. Does that mean you want to know the technique they used to swing the bat (e.g. did they choke up on it).

to add to naina's comment above, even if their 'side' of the story is heard and taken into account, I dont think it justifies their action.

*their = jewish kids (ref: to comment #5)

From NY1 -- an elaboration on what the teenagers said:

According to a court document obtained by NY1, the teens also shouted "...terrorist mother-[expletive,] you [expletive] our country. Why are you here? Go back to your country and never [expletive] with the Jews."

????. Does that mean you want to know the technique they used to swing the bat (e.g. did they choke up on it).

Well, there's always an outside chance they didn't do it. Think of other "ethnic" crimes that turned out very different than originally reported: scottsboro boys, central park wilding/rape, duke stripper, etc.

Alright, I ll take the bait. I am not south asian and will never identify as one.

scottsboro boys, central park wilding/rape, duke stripper, etc.

Fair enough

Of course this isn't a "south asian" problem.. the jewish kids askedhim if he was a muslim, didn't they? They were discerning bigots. Unlike some other attackers that assumed every "south asian" was a muslim terrorist, these guys took the trouble of asking theie victim what his religion was.. and then assumed he was terrorist. Ergo, ipso facto, this is muslim problem. Over to CAIR.

(Jewish) Anti-Defamation League condemns the attack

come on siddhartha...

have to second rani.

I second Rani 100% (comment #.1)

Baba it's very much my problem but I don't see why I have to make common cause with Shahid's identity as a result or because some punks may not know their head from their ass

C'mon guys. You see his point. He's got us cornered. We're all Muslims now.

Sorry, havent read all the comments before I posted. This discussion about SA tag doesnt belong here in this entry. My apologies again.

Siddhartha,

Since when did you assume Indian tag does not include Muslim. They are ~15% Muslims in India, in sheer (absolute) numbers more than Bangladesh, and perhaps even more than Paksitan (numbers vary from source to source). Is this a new propaganda machine Indian = Hindutva?

You are playing "goofy" games here, seconding Manju's comment above.

Irrespective of his country of origin, this is a sad event.

Everyone calm down. Some silly little gang in Bavaria has nothing to do with us here in Berlin.

I dare the “We’re not South Asian” contingent to tell me that what happened to Shahid Amber isn’t their problem.

Why do I get the feeling that if one of the commenters had made a distasteful comment like that here, they would've been banned/classified as a troll?

You are playing "goofy" games here, seconding Manju's comment above.

Actually Kush, I wasn't (in #17) accusing Siddhartha of playing games. I think he was revealing an uncomfortable truth...that sometimes identities are imposed on you, whether you like it or not. I see your point, this incident doesn't make me a Muslim after all, but as Siddhartha noted, I can't say it's not my problem either.

i really don't understand why you're all getting so caught up in that line; hate-crimes ARE a group problem.

a human problem, yes, but a race problem more specifically. Ignoring that aspect is kind of...foolish. you might not call yourself South Asian and you might not be Muslim, but if you're percieved as such by an assailant, isnt that classification at least somewhat relevant?

we must properly identify the problem before we can work to fix it -- this was a racially/ethnically/stupidly motivated heinous crime. sadly, in these cases, the bigot lays the parameters and you gotta start within them to eventually break them.

i really don't understand why you're all getting so caught up in that line; hate-crimes ARE a group problem.

espressa,

you're right ... you are not understanding why our knickers are in a twist

thanks for pointing that out.

can you be a touch more helpful and summarize?

Hope this guy gets better fast. Kobayashi, beware of Napoleon.

Throw the jew down the well!!

I'm still feeling like I got left hooked here.

One is reading about a hate crime, many beyond the brown community may identify with it, other 'icebergs' may identify with it beyond any labels.

Then WHAM, wasn't even expeting the whole 'which brown are you' debate, thats been dominating the posts from the last few days (and comments section forever I guess on such issues) to be thrown out. Totally passive-aggressive.

espressa,

read comments 2, 3, 6, 8 (etc...) carefully

the attackers were from the Orthodox stronghold of Borough Park and apparently dressed in full black-coat and black-hat regalia

Ironic since the FBI stats ranks at #1 hate crimes against Jews by a wide margin for the past several years .One would think they should be the last ones involved in perpetrating the same crime .

Ironic since the FBI stats ranks at #1 hate crimes against Jews by a wide margin for the past several years .One would think they should be the last ones involved in perpetrating the same crime .

Young men, fundamentalist beliefs, mob mentality, etc.

Common to pretty much 'every'group. Though, I do have a feeling that the Jewish community at large will make an emphatic statement against hate crimes and behavior of such kids, since they've been at the receiving end of some of the worst in history.

Throw the jew down the well!!

First, that is a pretty sick reaction to a sick attack. Also, let's not lump the whole community together, as has been done to us brown folk post-9/11. Organizations like ADL have been at the forefront of combating racist attacks and laws that marginalize minorities, post-9/11, for the reasons stated in comment # 30.

the jewish kids askedhim if he was a muslim, didn't they?

I don't think screaming "Muslim M*****f*****" constitutes asking. Senseless violence against an innocent person is everybody's problem, no matter who is the target, no matter who is the perpetrator and no matter how we, the bystanders identify ourselves. Consider the Holocaust, consider Rwanda and consider all of the other sickening instances of "ethnic cleansing" that probably started because patterns of persecution and violence were allowed to gain momentum.

Consider this poem first written by Martin Niemöller. The following version appeared in Time magazine to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the start of World War II.

First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left
to speak up for me.

Consider also what Gandhi said when aked if he was a Hindu: "Yes I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew."
(These two references come from wikipedia if anyone else wants to look at them)

The purpose of solidarity is to provide a source for emphathy and support, to assuage the loneliness of life by blurring divisions and building connections. No matter what our faiths, skin colors or ethno-linguistic groups, we are all members of the human race and we should stand by those who are senselessly victimized instead of distancing ourselves and pretending that it will never happen to us and that it is not our problem.

My point is that we may embrace or deny the title of South Asian. We may struggle to quantify our own existence with complicated layers of semantics. But at the end of the day, a man was beaten for eating ice-cream outside of a dunkin doughnuts and although I don't live in New York and although I am not a Muslim, it is my problem.

Throw the jew down the well!!

First, that is a pretty sick reaction to a sick attack.

Sriram, you just fell victim to Borat.

First, that is a pretty sick reaction to a sick attack. Also, let's not lump the whole community together...

What I do? What I do? In Kazakhstan, this is problem. We throw, and this make free Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan.

For you catch your next fish with a piece of the last.
- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., Verses for After Dinner

I don't think we're missing any "side" of the story. ADL has even come forward and condemned this as a heinous hate crime. What more do you need to know?

Agreed. I did not know this. I am sure ADL and others did their research.

Think of other "ethnic" crimes that turned out very different than originally reported: scottsboro boys, central park wilding/rape, duke stripper, etc

Even if they did it, the key for me is whether they did say what is being alleged. If they did not, I wouldn't call it a hate crime. Remember the famous “Guiliani Time” comment which was later retracted by Louima.

i must be missing some important undercurrent here for not having read the 340+ comment thread. but yes, rani, i will agree with you that how one identifies herself on a thursday afternoon does not preclude her from standing in support of a victim of hate-crime. i don't siddhartha meant to imply different...

Alright, I ll take the bait. I am not south asian and will never identify as one.

Would you identify as an Earthling if you were talking to a Martian?

Siddartha...I am not a South Asian...I am an INDIAN & proud to say so!

Others have rightly and accurately pointed out your fallacy in the post. I will just add my view to it:

1.Its simply mean & disrespectful for you to implicitly suggest, one needs to identify themselves as SouthAsian to recognize/condemn..etc the hate crime. Pathetic on your part.

2.By saying so, you are essentially showing yourself in same streak as the "nationalists/right wingers/Hindutva-vaadis"..you love to hate. They too seem to say...if not my way....then the highway.

Another low point in Sepia Mutiny.

Though, I do have a feeling that the Jewish community at large will make an emphatic statement against hate crimes and behavior of such kids, since they've been at the receiving end of some of the worst in history.

Earlier this year there was this incident:

One dead in hate-crime shooting at Jewish center

One person was killed and five others were wounded, three critically, in a shooting at the Jewish Federation in downtown Seattle, Washington, police said.

Police have detained a suspect who is a U.S. citizen of Pakistani descent.

Amber, who was eating ice cream outside a Midwood Dunkin’ Donuts when the gang attacked on Sunday

You don't need to pimp your racial "identity" to be disturbed by this. We all like ice cream.

I dare the “We’re not South Asian” contingent to tell me that what happened to Shahid Amber isn’t their problem.

Sriram, you just fell victim to Borat.

Totally missed the reference (I blame the lack of HBO). I must admit I felt pretty uncomfortable watching the clip, as well.

Another low point in Sepia Mutiny.

Oh c'mon dude, this isn't a 'low' point in Sepia Mutiny. People blog, we discuss, and most blow a bit of work off. Lets not get all dramatic about a low point on SM, or any personal attacks.

Plenty of my friends have said stupid and asinine things, so have I. No one is immune to it, we discuss, call BS, throw some food, hand a beer over making peace, and move along.

Very clever Mr. Kobayashi. I almost missed that one...

Gangsters always rally around a BS 'cause' don't they? I know few teenagers that act rationally around a group of other teens. To me, this is gangster BS. Have any of the parents been heard from?

Last year my dad had his nose broken by one of those aryan brotherhood POS. Gangsters all do the same crap.

Ok, #40 is was ridiculous I laughed.

And for those of you who are so offended by the SA identity bit in this post, if you saw this in the news (hate crime against Pakistani Muslim immigrant) would you send it to the news tab here? Are you surprised to see a post about it? Do you think it belongs here? Do you think YOU belong here?

Shruti,

yes
no
yes
yes

but what is your point?

um, that was supposed to be #40 was so ridiculous that I laughed. I hope Siddhartha did too.

Rani, my point is THIS is a SOUTH ASIAN blog.

Rani, my point is THIS is a SOUTH ASIAN blog.

exactly who are making this point to ? b/c i don't know see any comment above which denies this ...

let me ask another, do you understand what my point is?

Lets not get all dramatic about a low point on SM, or any personal attacks. Plenty of my friends have said stupid and asinine things, so have I. No one is immune to it, we discuss, call BS, throw some food, hand a beer over making peace, and move along.

I second you. Now that everyone has bitched out Siddhartha on the one comment can we get back to the rest of the thread? This is shitty. I guess what I found disturbing is that these are orthodox jews. I live in a orthodox jewish neighborhood and they are extremely peaceful and non confrontational so some part of me is more disturbed by this.

Do you think YOU belong here?

No, I don't feel particularly welcome : ) I find the reflexive Indian & Indian-American baiting tiresome. The comments like “paging spoorlam” or references to “saffron balls” of elephants, do not foster a healthy climate for debate.

Yes I would have posted, the article in the news tab. And yes I do condemn the attack.

Five of the last six posts have been about the southasian/indian-american issue!

Rani, my point is THIS is a SOUTH ASIAN blog.

Shruti...never denied it. Nor should it be any other way since we have posts related to entire South Asian community.

My point is, I would not want to be identified as South Asian. And by saying/being so, my concern for the victim nor the situation is NOT diminished in any way.

And for those of you who are so offended by the SA identity bit in this post, if you saw this in the news (hate crime against Pakistani Muslim immigrant) would you send it to the news tab here? Are you surprised to see a post about it? Do you think it belongs here? Do you think YOU belong here?

Can we stop? Lets not perpetuate this. It's silly if not downright disprespectful to the intelligent people who come here and contribute via their thoughts to question how brown they are and if they belong here. It's a hate crime. If the person was any other race or color I would still wince and feel bad. Why? Because it's touching on our human strings.

While the hosts are gracious the value of the blog post goes only so far, the discussions the follow are really what make a good or bad post. Lets not get all indignant about who does and doesn't belong here. This space doesn't belong to any of us to raise that question towards anyone else.

There have been too many posts and fights about identity issues in the past few days. It's Friday, we all need to take a deep breath. At the end of the day not a single one of us is going to change our minds about who we are. How we define ourselves, our identity and who we are is as personal as what we eat and who we worship. No one has the right to tell us to think otherwise so respect please.

exactly who are making this point to ? b/c i don't know see any comment above which denies this ...

Why would you come here if you didn't identify in some way with the South Asianness? I'm not even saying that you have to like or dislike the identification, but when you see the post about the hate crime, don't you realize that you are somehow linked to this guy because of that?

Why would you come here if you didn't identify in some way with the South Asianness? I'm not even saying that you have to like or dislike the identification, but when you see the post about the hate crime, don't you realize that you are somehow linked to this guy because of that?

i am not disagreeing with any of this, but again you are missing my point ... read a few of the recent post & comments esp the ones on this post to understand ....

and i'm with joat ... it is friday and i'm leaving early to grab the twofers :)

hate crimes are deplorable on all levels-- there is something even more sickening about a mob or gang that would take their agression out on a defenseless person. i hate feeling that any of us could fall victim to such blatant ignorance and cruelty, or that any of us could one day behave in a similar manner.

here's wishing my south asian brother a speedy recovery, and wishing that useless mob of misguided teens a lesson in tolerance and resepect. i hope the assailants are found guilty for their heinous crime.

Can we stop? Lets not perpetuate this. It's silly if not downright disprespectful to the intelligent people who come here and contribute via their thoughts to question how brown they are and if they belong here. It's a hate crime. If the person was any other race or color I would still wince and feel bad. Why? Because it's touching on our human strings.

JOAT, point taken, but I didn't say what I said in order to make the people who come here and contribute to discussion feel like they don't belong. Really, who am I to do that? And no, you don't have to be South Asian or brown to feel bad about the hate crime, but this IS a South Asian blog, and the reason it was blogged about was because of the South Asian angle. I feel bad for hate crimes committed towards anybody else. It's never right, and always for the same reasons. I hold no double standard on the judgement. But on a personal - a very, personal level - a hate crime in the South Asian community stings that little extra bit. I didn't know that was abnormal.

I didn't know that was abnormal.

ARRRRRGGGGHGGHGGH!!!!!!

now i really must go

Rani, apologies, I was being passive agressive. As ridiculous as Suraj was in #40, I can appreciate what he said in #54. I asked a series of questions and you two answered. Y'all don't didn't like the terminology debate getting mixed with morality - point taken.

I think Siddharth has a point. This hate crime is another example of how vulnerable the Indians are to these hate crimes even though the target here was a Pakistani.

I think its unfortunate that the first reaction some right wingers have to this heinous hate crime is not sorrow but concern about some mythical Muslim appeasement in the MSM.

I am not a South Asian...I am an INDIAN & proud to say so!

Thats about as idiotic as a frenchman insisting that he is not a western european.

If you are such a "proud", chauvinistic indian nationalist, what the hell are you doing here?? This site is not meant for your kind. Beat it!

I think its unfortunate that the first reaction some right wingers have to this heinous hate crime is not sorrow but concern about some mythical Muslim appeasement in the MSM.

I totally am with you on this. There's a time for every purpose under heaven.

I think Siddharth has a point. This hate crime is another example of how vulnerable the Indians are to these hate crimes even though the target here was a Pakistani.

ALM,

I totally agree with your 2nd line, and totally disagree on 1st line. I would oppose even I was not vulnerable, period.

Back to Siddhartha (I consider him a friend both offline, and online) but this sortof a "cuckoo" moment for him unless he is doing to provoke adda-like discussion (after all he is half Bengali. I suspect his adda gene is kicking in). However, he has no point on "South Asian" agruement on this thread.

What this does to me in long run? If there is a South Asian moment here or back in Indian subcontinent and the cause is good, I would whole heartedly participate in it. But jokery statements here and else where, totally turns me off to South Asian tag, not because of the concept but the clownishness of the people advocating it. Now you know why I have been calling it "frappuccino".

But jokery statements here and else where, totally turns me off to South Asian tag, not because of the concept but the clownishness of the people advocating it. Now you know why I have been calling it "frappuccino".

I dont think there is any clownish advocacy of the South Asian concept. In fact I would argue that there is no advocacy period. Some people like myself are comfortable with being classified as South Asian. I dont really advocate the usage of this term. However I use the term similar to the way I use the term desi.

I think its unfortunate that the first reaction some right wingers have to this heinous hate crime is not sorrow but concern about some mythical Muslim appeasement in the MSM

What makes you say that they (I think you were refering to me) were all right wingers. I completely agree with everyone that this was a heinous crime but before labeling it a hate crime I wanted to make sure that religion/ race was a factor. After the ADL came out and condemned it, I admit that there is a very good chance that this was in fact a hate crime.

I will disagree with you on the mythical but I think this is not the place to debate this.

I think people in the west should get used to this kind of meaningless attacks (religious attacks are kinda common in other places).. A couple of months back during the Israel-Lebanon fight, some Pakistani dude took out a Jewish woman in a Jewish centre in Seattle.. (See Vikram's post in #41)..

I wonder what this incident has to do with people opposing 'South Asian' tags..

Whenever a Muslim "jehadist" kills an unbeliever, the Liberals rush to explain his/her side of the story. Oh, how they, the Muslim youth from Bradford to Bangladesh are reacting to the events in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kashmir etc, etc.
By the same logic, Mr.Amber should also blame, his very tragic plight, on his co religionists who flew the planes into the World Trade Centre on September 11th 2001.
And we should take a moment to delve into the hurt those young orhtodox Jewish kids feel.

Ironic since the FBI stats ranks at #1 hate crimes against Jews by a wide margin for the past several years .One would think they should be the last ones involved in perpetrating the same crime .

It just goes to show you how Jews as a community continually have the victimization perception, I'm curious to see if this gets any mainstream media play. Chances are not.

I dare the “We’re not South Asian” contingent to tell me that what happened to Shahid Amber isn’t their problem.

Why does this style of reasoning sound all too familiar? The answer: I have lived in India for a little over two decades and I know how logic and rhetoric can be used to explain stuff in the media. Having said that, I think the style of argumentation is in very poor taste. Is your argumentation technique so weak that it needed a racist attack to justify it?

As I said earlier, the word "South Asian" means different things to different people. My residence in the US does not equate my definition of South Asian to yours as your social conditioning is different from mine. Nevertheless, the attack should be condemned irrespective of the ethnicity of the person. I don't have to subscribe to your definition of "South Asian" to say that.

l

I dare the “We’re not South Asian” contingent to tell me that what happened to Shahid Amber isn’t their problem.

Why it very much is "our" problem, since you've decided to make this an "us vs them" debate in the most childish manner. Why is it our problem? Because certain people have diluted the Indian Identity to make it South Asian, which means any of us can be attacked at any time. This why it's a problem to look brown. Because you want to assume all brown is all the same, are too lazy to educate other people about the difference.

DOES THIS MEAN THAT I AM ADVOCATING IT IS OK TO GO AFTER PAKISTANIS AND BANGALDESHIS? No. But that point will be lost on you. Or on Shruti. Thanks O great overlord of the Internet, for determining whether I belong here or not, or whether I should be asking myself that question.

Like I said before, now excuse me while I go find a mosque to break down, so that I may conform to your stereotype.

i must say i'm fascinated by the fact that Siddhartha's comment has bought out so much emotion. i guess, i've underestimated the power of ethnic identity (just like wolfowitz and bush).

i've underestimated the power of ethnic identity (just like wolfowitz and bush).

Wont George Bush first have to be aware of ethnic differences before he can underestimate identity politics?

I'm also fascinated by the uproar. You would think people can shed their ethno-religious-nationalist identity for the sake of solidarity. Why aren't people also irate that Siddhartha refers to fellow browns as brothers and sisters? Sheesh. Rise above the fray and all that.

You would think people can shed their ethno-religious-nationalist identity for the sake of solidarity.

I think that is the whole point the "fascinated bunch" is missing. Siddharthas comment and now you are implying that one needs to conform to some kind of pseudo solidarity or label in order to empathize with another human being who looks like us and that is the problem people had NOT as you imply wanting to hang onto their identity. This business of you are either wish us or against us that GWB invented pissed a lot of people off because it implies that if you are against the war you are somehow unAmerican or America's enemy. Same logic here.

one needs to conform to some kind of pseudo solidarity or label in order to empathize with another human being who looks like us and that is the problem people had NOT as you imply wanting to hang onto their identity.

I disagree completely.

The 'South Asian' term is a step towards global citizenry, an admiration for commonality. I would argue that it's precisely the ethnic, religious, national identities that people hold so steadfastly that hinders empathy. In fact, the 'with us or against us' motto is more relevant and responsive to ethnic/religious/national identities because it plays on a pre-existing reservoir of myths about rivalries and even creates new ones.

One may disagree that 'South Asian' is servicable or even relevant but do you also acknowledge that embracing a identity, any identity, in its fullness has negative consequences and is susceptible to being bastardized, can be illogical, serve to exaggerate the narrative of national suffering? The SA identity's weakness maybe that it's oblique and that's understandable; but, I think obliquenss is also its strength. To accept this condition rests on whether you think identities are fluid or fixed. I believe they are fluid and changing at an increasingly faster rate.

The historical record is littered with violence and apathy that arose from dehumanizing and marginalizing 'the others' condition, to the point where it was celebrated and served as a unifying force. It's precisely this tendency that needs to be overcome in its totality. I welcome a more nuanced take on how national-pride as a filter for a world view governs decision-making but the discourse post-9/11 has been anything but.

I think obliqueness is also its strength.

Aha.

Outwardly it is straight, but inwardly it yields.

This business of you are either wish us or against us that GWB invented pissed a lot of people off because it implies that if you are against the war you are somehow unAmerican or America's enemy. Same logic here.

For the record, it was Bishop Desmond Tutu who invented this business:

"You are either on the side of the oppressed or the side of the oppressor," said Bishop Tutu. "You can't be neutral." He received a standing ovation from the subcommittee

I think that post #33 sums up my own stance here exactly. Gold star to SemiDesiMasala for exhibiting some decency, empathy, and good old-fashioned common sense.

God knows, the world needs more of such people these days.

For the record, it was Bishop Desmond Tutu who invented this business:

"You are either on the side of the oppressed or the side of the oppressor," said Bishop Tutu. "You can't be neutral." He received a standing ovation from the subcommittee

Saying things from a position of power and from a position of "the oppressed" are two completely different things. And Bush doesn't actually claim to be the Oppressed, he claims to be the Righteous, possibly Beleaguered Hand of Justice.

I also want the jewish kids to have a chance to give their side of the story.

I cant believe this. As someone who knows what it is like to be a gas station attendent, I am totally offended by the above. I am also extremely mad at all these losers who come and attack gas station attendents.

The gas station that I was working during mid-ninties while at school was robbed at gun point when someone else was working in the store. I know how terrifying this thing can be.

This thing infact puts the Desis close to the group losely called as "Arabs" in the US. I tried to make that point in the last thread. We should accept it that expectation that an average American will understand and appreciate the nuianced racial classification of "South Asian" is expecting too much.

Most people without a college degree are going to assume that I am "Arab" and I cant change it atleast until Desis get extremely highly culturaly visible in US, which will take years.

I can understand the plight of Desis who run gas stations, specially after 9-11. I sincerely think they all should carry a gun and shoot these SOBs.

Ok, some of my sentences in #83 dont make sense due to bad grammar. But I hope people will get what I wanted to say. When I say identity of "Arab" I mean "middle eastern". South Asia is still "mid" ways to east asia if you are looking from the US (looking east that is).

this business of you are either with us or against us

For the record, this line of thought goes back to Jesus, or at least the folks who wrote the new testament...

"If you are not for me, you are against me" (Matthew 12:30)

Two stories:

I lived in LA till recently. I lived in a Jewish neighbourhood (Fairfax-LaBrea) and around me were many black-coated Jews. On a few occasions I overheard hate speech directed against Pakistanis. Most of the Jews I have known had some degree of suppressed hate and anger towards Muslims--this incident does not surprise me at all.

Also in LA--UCLA. Chinese professor asked me if I was not Muslim and if I would not be any trouble. You are from that part of the world he explained. Long story short. I left UCLA and am looking for another school to continue my PhD. The department did nothing and instead, the professor was promoted. They believed my story alright but this sort of thing and a lot more(I'm just another skeleton in their mass-grave) is tolerated and acceptable.

For the record, I'm an Indian female--could be mistaken for Pakistani, Mexican, Latin, Arab--you get the idea.

I just hope that they find the suspects who did that heinous act. Just as long as they don't treat this like the "dotbusters" crime spree many years ago, where instead of looking for the actual suspects, they harassed black individuals who didn't have anything to do with the crime.

Whenever things like this happen, I wonder if the perpetrators (minority) are truly expressing their anger toward the "institution" instead of the other (minority). For example, if you can't strike back at the government, white society, etc, you hit back at something closer.

This attack did not happen in a vacuum. Haven't you all noticed how many south asian muslims have been behind murderous terrorist attacks/hate crimes recently? Who were their targets if not innocent civilians, including women and children? What goes around comes around.

Now we see a hindu convert to islam plotting to wreak havoc in the cities of the anglosphere. The future looks bleak. A major, perhaps nuclear, terrorist attack by desi jihadis or an economic depression or an ecological catastrophe......and desis could become an endangered species in the West.

I think that post #33 sums up my own stance here exactly. Gold star to SemiDesiMasala for exhibiting some decency, empathy, and good old-fashioned common sense.

Thanks Jai...that was a nice thing to say. :)

So who heard of this attack before SepiaMutiny? Thats right, probably none of you. Admittedly, I'd only vaguely heard of it throught emails. I havent searched for media articles about it yet. Am I getting uncaring as I get older? I say no. Because I remember the days when there was almost no one out there to help with these cases, and the victim was often arrested themselves, and the media didnt care. Back then, if there was a South Asian event that week, it became all about the most recent hate crime, and EVERYONE was talking about it. Not so now. Bless the young South Asian Americans -- and really, the young Asian Americans in general-- in the late 80s into the late 90s for doing this work. How many of you guys were out there then? Yup, thats what I thought. You werent around.

I am glad that nowdays, when this happens, I know there are many organizations and people who not only specialize in these issues, but who can follow up with the case. Rather than all of us stopping our lives for months at a time to help out. But the danger is that we dont care, that we are no longer alarmed. That we'll go out to that random South Asian Bollywood-related event that night and no one will mention it. We'll be all happy that society loves our culture of origin now, and we cant be bothered to interupt a fashionable event to educate people about whats really happening. I've seen it time and time again.

But now that we dont need to help directly, we really should be helping in the avenues we can. Trying to spread the word about these cases. And trying to make sure people are still alarmed. We need to be still alarmed.

There is no words to express the grief and awfull feeling about the attack on brother Shahid Amber by Jewish terrorist,
Not enough that the Jews occupide Palestine and killed our people Palestinian and causing the war on Iraq
and the killing in Iraq, but also in the Unites States in Brooklyn yhe Jews attacking our people because of their religion.
and after the Jews complaining that the Jews are innocent and beinh dislike for nothing?!
SHAME SHAME ISRAEL AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE111

There is no words to express the grief and awfull feeling about the attack on brother Shahid Amber by Jewish terrorist,
Not enough that the Jews occupide Palestine and killed our people Palestinian and causing the war on Iraq
and the killing in Iraq, but also in the Unites States in Brooklyn the Jews attacking our people because of their religion.
and after that the Jews complaining that the Jews are innocent and beinh dislike for nothing?!
SHAME SHAME ISRAEL AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE!!!