Simple answer: post his email to sepiamutiny and let the flames begin >:-)

How many desis do we know who have 'Americanized' names -- or nicknames of cartoon characters to make it easier on other people to say your name?

I am guilty of doing this at times. My first name is Purvi and when I order food in restaurants or am in Starbucks I use the name Courtney because it's easier than trying to spell out Purvi. People have a hard time hearing the P and the R and often spell it Corbi.
Also, when I am in loud places (e.g. a bar), people often think my name is Courtney. Often I don't bother correcting them because I'm prolly never going to meet them again.
Sometimes its just easier to do that, especially when 5 people are in line behind you and you have already spelled your name 5 times to the clerk.

Ignored and moved on. A response gives too much legitimacy to an immature instigator. These battles have to be fought elsewhere.

What is in a name? After all, names is why Kalpen Modi changed his stage name to Kal Penn - and saw an increase in audition calls subsequently.

This is pretty common practice and not just for desis in US. Muslim and Sikh actors in Bollywood changed their names to more 'Hindu' names (Dharmendra, Devanand). Even in US, many Jews and Greeks (Jon Stewart, Jennifer Aniston). Name is everything when one knows nothing else beyond the name. All most all Chinese people I have met changed their chinese name to american name formally. But most desis resist that.

I too use American name (online, restaurants) where my name or ethnicity doesn't matter.

Yeah, ignoring this kind of crap is usually the only thing you can do. Since he doesn't have the guts to say this stuff in person, it's pure cowardly shit-talking.

I have a feeling that the "Borat" character is not taking us (ambiguously brown foreigner-types) forward as a people. Despite the utter, worshipful reverence people seem to have for Sacha Baron Cohen's brilliant idea of dressing up in a disguise and fooling people into saying embarrassing/ignorant things, I'm not so impressed. But that only makes one of me and a billion of you.

Yeti:

But that only makes one of me and a billion of you.

:-D . Make that two.

I have a feeling that the "Borat" character is not taking us (ambiguously brown foreigner-types) forward as a people.

kazakhs and other non-south asians would be insulted, offended even, to be lumped together with black indians! go tell them that they are brown and see what they think.

Ignored and moved on. A response gives too much legitimacy to an immature instigator. These battles have to be fought elsewhere.

I mentioned my thoughts about this during the Post Secret debacle. I get frustrated when people don't want to try to use my full name, but often I use that as my scale for who is worth knowing. Bitchy, maybe, but it's important to me, and better than deciding I don't like someone because of his or her shoes.

I often give the name of my dining companions, instead of mine, when reserving a table. Sometimes I give my last name, which is decidedly easier than my first. It's not because I'm ashamed, but because often the host or hostess will walk through a restaurant calling a name that doesn't sound like mine. I would hate to miss a table!

This is pretty common practice and not just for desis in US. Muslim and Sikh actors in Bollywood changed their names to more 'Hindu' names (Dharmendra, Devanand). Even in US, many Jews and Greeks (Jon Stewart, Jennifer Aniston). Name is everything when one knows nothing else beyond the name. All most all Chinese people I have met changed their chinese name to american name formally. But most desis resist that.

circus,

For every Jon Stewart, there is also a Salma Hayek, and Ingrid Bergmann. They both openly resisted to change anything. In fact, Ingrid Bergmann when asked to change quite a few things (name, accent, etc.) by the studios, threatened to walk out of the movie contracts. hold behold, the studios relented. Salma Hayek was on 60 minutes a few years ago, and discussed that issue at great lengthes. Sure Salma Hayek and Ingrid Bergmann are/ were white.

Now to dharmendra, meena kumari, and suriya, they had screen names and real names. screen names were given for business reasons, and they openly acknowledged it. Dilip kumar for example. For lot of reasons, he used his real name. Also, when he married Saira Banu as his second wife. from 1980s onwards, that practice has been diminishing to a great degree.

japanese americans are bringing back their original names - paging Razib

kazakhs and other non-south asians would be insulted, offended even, to be lumped together with black indians! go tell them that they are brown and see what they think.

For a second I thought Macacaroach is back ;) .
But this certainly is not a good time to be a Kazakh in the US.

I too use American name (online, restaurants) where my name or ethnicity doesn't matter.

I cannot tell you how many times at Starbucks, restauraunts or whatever I've been asked "So, how do you spell Taz?" It's almost comical. Almost. But it really doesn't make it seem that I've saved any time going with the bhalu nam or the dahk nam. Same diff. in those settings.

as someone who once used to sing songs to his bike and race occasionally - let me tell you this guy is a poseur - there is no way that anyone who's taken up cycling as a sport or a lifestyle would diminish a newbie in such a way.

but maybe it's the ignorance and arrogance of youth - or you know what - i really dont know much about the courier scene in the cities - even in toronto - these guys are jerks and need a whupping.

if your buddy needs guidance on buying a cycle - please ask her to go to a regular store and talk with the guys out back with a little grease under the nails - not the smoothies up front.

for that matter - if nirva's single and available, you can ask her to ping me for advice at kholi number 420 (that's an inside reference for Kush) ;-)

advice at kholi number 420 (that's an inside reference for Kush) ;-)

I know, I know. I think some others will get it too.

My name is Anthony Gonsalves. There is a rumor that Arnold Schwarzenegger is considering a name change too - something Punjabi and simple.

japanese americans are bringing back their original names - paging Razib

the names aren't hard in the first place (flat and phonetic). but also, note that they aren't usually pronounced the way they would be in japan because they aren't japanese speakers (e.g., "yoshi" has a lilt in english that would sound strange in japanese).

i mentioned this earlier, one reason chinese change their first names is that they are simply too difficult for non-chinese to pronounce because of the issues relating to tones. they do this even in east asia for purposes of international business.

Sensitive immigrant Part: umpteen.

The expression "what boat did you come off" makes perfect sense if you put it in the context of the sale. The seller was (ungraciously no doubt) asking the question "where do you get brand new bikes for 80 bucks?" I've poked around and see used Nishiki's sell for hundreds of dollars. That was the tone in the email. Snippy, but not hateful by any stretch of the imagination. CBS may have a point in asking which boat Nirva came off. He/she may be ungracious but no need get Mutineers' panties in a twist.

And once the argument started there was only one way to go...

CBS: blah bla bla, go eat some cake you cake eater. hey nirva you need to get those papers soon thats why you are too uptight. hurry up and go to the ins and stand in line

That was, in George Costanza's terms, "stickin it" to Nirva.

Now to dharmendra, meena kumari, and suriya, they had screen names and real names. screen names were given for business reasons, and they openly acknowledged it. Dilip kumar for example. For lot of reasons, he used his real name. Also, when he married Saira Banu as his second wife. from 1980s onwards, that practice has been diminishing to a great degree.

Agreed. But even now in Bollywood people change their names but not for religious or ethnic reasons but for pure trendiness.

For every Jon Stewart, there is also a Salma Hayek, and Ingrid Bergmann.

This I don't agree with. The number of people who kept (not keep) their original foreign/alien sounding name is not same as the number who changed to more main stream names.

Next time I go to Starbucks, I'm telling them my name is Taz.

kazakhs and other non-south asians would be insulted, offended even, to be lumped together with black indians! go tell them that they are brown and see what they think.

Looks pretty brown to me.

My point is not whether we collectively like being lumped together. Most people in my family (myself excluded) would recoil in utter disgust at being lumped together with Pakistanis, let alone Kazakhs (who are mostly Russian Orthodox and Muslim). I'm sure plenty of light-skinned Central Asians dis-love us. That's not why I said what I said. Does he actually need to put on brown makeup? If he were portrayed as being from some "backwater" part of Pakistan, India, or Bangladesh, would we get a little more upset?

Blah. Love ya, sakshi.

I cannot tell you how many times at Starbucks, restauraunts or whatever I've been asked "So, how do you spell Taz?"

Unfortunately, you do have way too many assholes on craigslist (and many great people too). I think it depends on where you are. I've had awesome experiences with Craigslist in NYC and in the Bay Area. However, whenever I reply/send ads in Houston or LA, I usually end up getting some really obnoxious people replying to me or just people I'm not comfortable with when I meet/talk to them.

I do think there's a correlation with the local culture (what I feel when I visit these places). People living in NY and the Bay Area seem to be a lot more open to trying random things and more open to meeting new people (even if they are not well-known) and doing stuff together or using online forums to sell/buy stuff. Cities like Houston tend to be more cliqued, people kinda hang out in their own circles and are not very comfortable with doing things online.

I wonder if others have had similar experiences to mine.

my point is this: why are you trying to deny the manifest blackness of south asians? central asians are brown, yes, but south asians are black.

JIC:
"I too use American name (online, restaurants) where my name or ethnicity doesn't matter."

Do you do this when name and ethnicity don't matter, or when they become more of a direct disadvantage? Maybe it's because I'm younger and not yet very active in the job force that I feel connected to my name, and actively try to get people to say Ravi and not call me Robbie/Robert/Bob/Reverie.

Most people don't understand that the Borat character is striving to make fun of cultural interaction at the expense of mainstream America, rather than at the expense of the Kazhak people (which makes his character that much funnier for me).

I don't understand the cake-eater comment. Would CL consider a complaint concerning the seller?

I cannot tell you how many times at Starbucks, restauraunts or whatever I've been asked "So, how do you spell Taz?"

I have actually considered officially changing my name to make it something more internationally less 'wierd' (aka Gogol in The Namesake), because I do think it is something that is important in today's world, especially since I would like to work in an international/globalized company after I graduate. I was wondering if any of you have done that sorta thing and what exactly is the procedure. It is definitely a very hard decision to make.

As an anecdote, a professor I did some research with once had the old-school habit of addressing all his students as Mr/Ms . However, he couldn't pronounce my last name at all, so I always felt like that was a barrier with him coz he did not want to call me by first name.

I don't mind people asking me the pronunciation/spelling as long as they do it politely. I do have trouble with spelling European names too. However, I use the shorter version of my first name, all of 3 letters (Raj) and I'm surprised that most Americans actually are acquainted with it!

my point is this: why are you trying to deny the manifest blackness of south asians? central asians are brown, yes, but south asians are black.

Your point is to clown, clown, clown away. And that I can respect.

I do think it is something that is important in today's world, especially since I would like to work in an international/globalized company after I graduate

Do as you wish or makes you happy.

Please trust me, name pronunciation does not matter. I used to work for a major multinational oil company [they are SMers (bloggers and commenters) who still work for mega multinationals, and they can pipe in too]. They were all sorts of names there - especially Russians. Russian expats are hot commodity as they are giant oil fields in Ruski land. They were people from Ajerbejian...... you name it. Like maybe, with new gas discoveries in Rajasthan, reading and writing Hindi might suddenly become an asset.

Sure, in general, one thing I noticed that most of them at that company were better looking than average. That is a strong observation, I had. There was a really smart, well-educated Russian geoscientist [she died in a car accident] who was shortlisted for Dallas cowboys cheer leaders. She was trying it for fun and did not make the final cut.

black.

Circus

This is pretty common practice and not just for desis in US. Muslim and Sikh actors in Bollywood changed their names to more 'Hindu' names (Dharmendra, Devanand).

Your statement is true but you choose wrong examples. Dharmendra's name is Dharam Singh Deol and there are plenty many sikh guys in Punjab with the name Dharminder (which is Dharmendra in Hindi).

Dev Anand's birth name is Devdutt Pishorimal Anand and he's not muslim/sikh.

Dilip Kumar (real anme Yusuf Khan), Meena Kumari, Madhubala would be more appropriate examples. and this has got nothing to do with religion. Hari Bhai Zariwala became Sanjeev Kumar and Harikishen Goswami became Manoj Kumar.

I was about to respond to circuswhen I saw that musical got to it first. Btw, Krishna Bhanji (Ben Kingsley) is a better example of what Taz (Tasneem?) is talking about. He has talked about it at length.

Regarding circus' assertion that "All most all Chinese people I have met changed their chinese name to american name formally. But most desis resist that." I agree with it. I think it is a result of a vast number of Chinese immigrants wanting to be perceived as "white". Go to Singapore and check out the racism you will encounter from Chinese folks there. They are quite open about it - try calling a Chinese landlord and he/she will tell you point blank that he/she does not rent his house to Indians. They seem to have been far more affected by colonialism than have desis.

My advice to parents; choose any Indian name you want as long as you don't choose something like Nishit Dikshit. Or Anal Bhatt.

I happen to be one of those few desis with an American name (it's Brian), and yet most people tend to refer to me by my last name or some variation of it. And whenever I tell desi people my name they wonder why the hell I don't have an Indian name.

Musical,

You seem to know the intricacies.

As an aside, technically Dharmendra is Muslim these days so that he continue to have two wives and not run into serious law problems. I do not think it has any real meaning though.

kazakhs and other non-south asians would be insulted, offended even, to be lumped together with black indians! go tell them that they are brown and see what they think.

So, the black (oops, brown) bangladeshi nordicist is finally getting over his racial delusions. Or is he? :)

The poster who is imagining that Borat is a fellow brown is playing the usual pathetic desi game of self-flattery by false ethnic association. You can be sure he wouldnt do the same if Borat had been an ethiopian, who are actually colored like desis unlike Borat.

BTW, I just re-read "bangladeshi nordicist" and it cracked me up. :)

JayV (#15 and #16's) comments make perfect sense. It is well known that bicycles are the representative form of commute for the average American, as opposed to cabs for Indians, and the backs of crowded trucks for Mexicans. In fact, there were a measly 240 million passenger automobiles registered in the US (link) as opposed to a whopping 4 million or so bicycle commuters. In fact, as part of some stealth legislation introduced jointly by Conrad Burns and Ted Stevens in the recently passed Military Commissions Act, border patrol officers can administer random instant price checks for bike components such as crankshafts and bottom brackets (but not derailleurs, they are French). The correctness of the answers will be judged by Bob Barker (they only want you to believe that he has retired from his day job, he has actually moved on to a higher calling) and the penalty for incorrect answers will be indefinite detention in Detroit. Of course, in the interests of fairness and to keep the procedure constitutional, there is an arbitration procedure, but it requires original receipts within 30 days of purchase.

Personally, I'm appalled by the way the MSM media are falling over
each other to praise Borat. That this obviously bigoted bike-seller would trot out
a Borat reference is very telling.

Before dismissing this note as the rantings of a humorless crank, please
consider the following alpha-conversion of the Borat outline, and ask yourself,
is it funny?

"Abhas Rahim, the well-known Sunni comedian from Tirkut, masquerading
as Shlomo Cohen, an Israeli cooking expert from Haifa, travels around America,
hilariously getting unsuspecting Americans to expose their inherent anti-Arab bigotry. Shlomo
conforms the worst media stereotypes of Israelis--loud, impatient, unwilling to listen, pushy
etc.

One hilarious episode was when he turns up at a party in Washington for a pro-Israeli
organization, in a serious discussion with a matron about whether cluster bombing
Lebanese village to get the eggplants in the field well roasted for Baba Ghanouj......."

Well, if you thought that was funny, go ahead, go see Borat. otherwise, don't see
it, and tell your friends to Boycott it. It's an insidious, racist, obnoxious, offensive piece
of drivel.

What would you have done?

Craigslist Bike Seller: what nirva, whateva

My response:

Sorry if you didn't understand my question, I'll rephrase it as I'm on the market to purchase a bike

a) What is the condition of these bikes?
b) What is your price

If you're looking to sell, I'd appreciate the information.

- If the next reply was stoooopid, I wouldn't waste anymore time and give the following response.

Obviously you're not interested in selling your bikes. From an economic standpoint, you're actions are stupid. You may have got the best deal from me, but now you'll never know. So be it. Good luck in selling your bikes and I hope you find the time to grow up as an adult who can conduct a business transaction in real English. Not pre-teen webenglish.

That movie idea sounds HIlarious! Put it on GooTube before somebody else does! And Shlomo just cracks me up when he does that bit about how you get crispy falafels to dip in the baba ghanouj, if you are lucky.

Hmmm... I guess my sensitivity buds got burnt when the lynch mob came through town with torches last night.

CBS was offense but I agree it was just an escalated conversation. We live in a country with a racial hierarchy. I don't know what CBS would identify as but she is ignorant and it is something you very clearly state and then move on from. there's no need to hold a lifetime grudge, its not WORTH your time

Borat...hm...humor is politics you know? In jokes there is a lot of truth and ability to get at what can't be easily discussed otherwise. I don't know if I will pay to see the movie but I think I will see it at some point. The bigger question is how we would react if Borat was American and the "jews in the well" song was about black Americans

We are not South Asian: Badrinath Subraminum, Sahindranath Mukhopadhyay, Siddharth Ghatlotkar, Vichitra Patnayak, Vivekaditya Gangdhar, Gurusharan Singh Tandon

We are South Asian: Bud, Sach, Sidd, Vick, Vivian, Guru,

Another reason to adopt ‘We are South Asian’.

We are not South Asian: Badrinath Subraminum, Sahindranath Mukhopadhyay, Siddharth Ghatlotkar, Vichitra Patnayak, Vivekaditya Gangdhar, Gurusharan Singh Tandon, Abhishek Chaturvedi

We are South Asian: Bud, Sach, Sidd, Vick, Vivian, Guru, Abi

Another reason to adopt ‘We are South Asian’.

Did you notice that CBS read backwards forms the initials of Sacha Baron Cohen?

Just sayin'.

-Are both Nirva and the bike seller fresh off the boat? It was painful reading their dialogue.

--Razib, what is your background in genetics? Just wondering.

You never know who CBS might be - it may very well be a fellow "South Asian"

A Paki who saw the Indian name and thought he will play around
or
A Khalistani type who hates anything Indian (some of the most brown hating desis I have met unfortunately are second/third generation Sikhs in US/Canada who seem to be brainwashed with Khalistani thing)

One thing I am not sure is, did the original ad say it is 80 bucks? If it did, I think I will go along reply #15 - CBS was being very sarcastic and was saying "which planet did you arrive from? Where on earth do you get nishikisport for 80 bucks??"

Get yer self-identification fix here: http://cafepress.com/thankucomeagain

T-shirts concerning favorite desi gripes.

A Khalistani type who hates anything Indian (some of the most brown hating desis I have met unfortunately are second/third generation Sikhs in US/Canada who seem to be brainwashed with Khalistani thing)

word.

After all, names is why Kalpen Modi changed his stage name to Kal Penn

And why Krishna Bhanji became Ben Kingsley.

And why Krishna Bhanji became Ben Kingsley.

robert zimmerman, bob dylan

macacaroach:

The poster who is imagining that Borat is a fellow brown is playing the usual pathetic desi game of self-flattery by false ethnic association. You can be sure he wouldnt do the same if Borat had been an ethiopian, who are actually colored like desis unlike Borat.

Get a clue. I've done the same repeatedly, and if you actually knew anything about me whatsoever you'd realize how laughable it is to try to declare that I wouldn't claim direct association with Ethiopians and Africans in general. I've claimed that bond and lived that bond, so stop making moronic assumptions for the sake of hearing your own smug trollery as you sit safely behind the anonymity of a screenname.

I'm not making a point about who we "should" or "shouldn't" associate with. I'm making a point about who we get associated with given the social/political/national/racial attitudes of the United States. Some of you live in a bubble where this doesn't appear to be happening (yes, I know, you were raised in a wealthy white suburb and all your friends are white but they were also liberal and Jewish and very understanding and you never had a problem with it etcetera), but for the rest of us who live in reality, it should seem clear enough. My personal views regarding with whom we should actually be associating are a different matter which I didn't mention because it wasn't the point.

Bleeding Dil:

"Abhas Rahim, the well-known Sunni comedian from Tirkut, masquerading
as Shlomo Cohen, an Israeli cooking expert from Haifa, travels around America,
hilariously getting unsuspecting Americans to expose their inherent anti-Arab bigotry. Shlomo conforms the worst media stereotypes of Israelis--loud, impatient, unwilling to listen, pushy etc.
One hilarious episode was when he turns up at a party in Washington for a pro-Israeli
organization, in a serious discussion with a matron about whether cluster bombing
Lebanese village to get the eggplants in the field well roasted for Baba Ghanouj......."
Well, if you thought that was funny, go ahead, go see Borat. otherwise, don't see
it, and tell your friends to Boycott it. It's an insidious, racist, obnoxious, offensive piece of drivel.

What time is it? almost 1AM. Some of us need a life, don't we :-(

Lots of 'ABCDs' talk in the same manner as this bike seller. Statements like "what boat did you just get off?" are often used by these guys while talking to so called "FOBs".

hello, my name is satyadev

but you can call me steve

I happen to be one of those few desis with an American name (it's Brian), and yet most people tend to refer to me by my last name or some variation of it. And whenever I tell desi people my name they wonder why the hell I don't have an Indian name.

Paging (as they say) Anna...

I've claimed that bond and lived that bond, so stop making moronic assumptions for the sake of hearing your own smug trollery as you sit safely behind the anonymity of a screenname.

i wonder if this individual's posts are deleted often? he/she has a long track record of abusive comments.

btw, you're black! deal with it.

Going back to Taz's post:

Would CBS have reacted the way she did, had Nirva signed her e-mail with a 'Betty' or 'Cindy'?

Reminds me of when I volunteered to do some "get out the vote" phone banking from a local candidate's headquarters a couple of years ago. Caller after caller shouted at me and slammed the phone down until I started calling myself "Ann."

JayV (#15 and #16's) comments make perfect sense. It is well known that bicycles are the representative form of commute for the average American, as opposed to cabs for Indians, and the backs of crowded trucks for Mexicans....

If I am in the market for something I like to find the price of stuff first. Go on Ebay, look at other listings etc. It is not that difficult. I've never heard of the brand Nishiki and I found out the price range in about 30 seconds.

The basic debate is about whether CBS was initially offensive because he/she did not want to deal with an immigrant or was it because he/she was pissed at stupid questions asked by the buyer. I am firmly on the side of the latter. Doesn't make CBS a good person but just a different kind of shit head.

I happen to be one of those few desis with an American name (it's Brian), and yet most people tend to refer to me by my last name or some variation of it. And whenever I tell desi people my name they wonder why the hell I don't have an Indian name.

Me, too. It is frustrating to explain to people also that this was not my parents' attempts to give me a "white-washed" first name.

Also, on Kalpen Modi and the name game, here is my favorite economics article, ever, on black v. white racial discrimination in hiring (proxying names for race) -- cowritten, coincidentally, by a southie: "Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?"

With respect to names and naming, my parents and I always joke that if I can bother to learn to pronounce a bunch of Western European origin names, then other people can learn how to pronounce a subcontinental name. I think this is about respect and inclusion and the larger idea of a multicultural society. But ultimately, I don't think that names, name-changing, etc., will make a lick of difference when it comes to curbing racist behavior.

i wonder if this individual's posts are deleted often? he/she has a long track record of abusive comments.

btw, you're black! deal with it.

me? abusive? ok.

happy to be black.

Most of us 1st gen immigrants have had to deal with these kind of 'fresh of the boat' comments, not from Americans but our 'fellow South Asian' ABCDs. And its not limited to comments, but parodies of our accents , dress sense and even worse.
Personally it does not affect me at all, I pity ABCDs whose only sense of self worth comes from their American accent and their pathetically metrosexual sense of style.

From what I know, Sacha Baron Cohen basically wanted to pick some random nationality that sounded like it seemed far away from Britain (and now the US too, obviously). Apparently, Kazakhstan sounded suitably "distant", although the earlier versions of Borat were actually Moldovan and Albanian respectively.

Personally I think it would have been wiser for him to have fabricated a country rather than picking a real one, especially as I remember what it was like when many English "comedians" would make similar jokes and impressions at the expense of British (South) Asians. It's not a pleasant experience, and I can only imagine how hurtful all this must be to actual Kazakhs. I'm assuming Cohen himself must also remember the "humour" targetted at desis in the UK -- along with the local black population -- which was once so prevalent in the mainstream British media.

However, with regards to the "throw the Jew down the well" jokes and Borat's general anti-semitism, bear in mind that there is a deliberate underlying streak of irony here because Cohen himself is from quite a conservative Jewish family and is a practising Jew himself. I'm sure we can all think of plenty of hypothetical Indian equivalents where a member of one ethnic/religious group could pretend to be from another background and make jokes about his "real" affiliation in an attempt to expose such bigotry.

Overall I have mixed feelings about Borat. He can be extremely funny -- and the clips I've seen of the movie look hilarious (by all accounts it really is) -- but it would still have been better for his nationality to be a fake one. His current incarnation does make it difficult to tell if the joke really is completely on the people being filmed who have no idea that Borat isn't "real" or, in part at least, inadvertantly about Kazakhs.

Go to Singapore and check out the racism you will encounter from Chinese folks there. They are quite open about it - try calling a Chinese landlord and he/she will tell you point blank that he/she does not rent his house to Indians.

Unfortunately, we Indians in India are equally unkind to them (East Asian races)...just look at the casual racism often encountered by Nepalis/Tibetans in Indian cities and in the MSM in India. Two wrongs don't make things right, of course. I think this will change with globalization, but pretty slowly.

One hilarious episode was when he turns up at a party in Washington for a pro-Israeli organization, in a serious discussion with a matron about whether cluster bombing Lebanese village to get the eggplants in the field well roasted for Baba Ghanouj.......

Bleeding Dil, it's NIIIICE, I LIIIIKE!!!!! JAGSHEMASH!!!

I think Sacha Cohen is perfectly within his rights to use his talents to ridicule whichever political group/view/stand he wants to and can get away with. We should not expect him to carry the burden of the world's racists and problems. If your hypothetical Arab comedian emerges soon, I will cheer him/her equally!!!

Do you do this when name and ethnicity don't matter, or when they become more of a direct disadvantage?

The former not the later. I have consciously tried to use my really really Indian name whenever i think it matter (+-vely). But I do know few older people who try to shorten/americanize their names to fit in.

Last night, when I introduced Abhi to Nirva at The Throws concert...

Abhi, coyly sliding up next to her & feigning pick-up line smoothness, "So Nirva, I've been meaning to ask you... what boat did you just get off of?"

I can't introduce this guy to any of my gals, I swear...

I can't believe noone has said the obvious yet.

What are Indian parents thinking when they pick nonsensical names like Nirva for their kids? As far as I can tell, it is not an Indian name, not does it have any identifiable ethnic origin.

There are many perfectly nice Indian names which are easily recognized by many non-Indians. It seems like there is a competition among Indian parents for coming up with the most obscure names for their kids.

The book "Freakonomics" goes into detail about black parents picking made-up names like "Roshanda" for their kids, and the price their kids pay for it. The same goes for names like Nirva as well. In my opinion, the "Whateva" response was quite funny. Someone with a name like Nirva should be prepared for comments like that, and stop complaining. (or change their name; it is not too hard to do).

I happen to be one of those few desis with an American name (it's Brian), and yet most people tend to refer to me by my last name or some variation of it. And whenever I tell desi people my name they wonder why the hell I don't have an Indian name.

Whoa - same here (my name's Brian, too)! Being Malayalee, people tend to wonder why I have two first names...

Hey Soundsgood2me ease up on my name. My name has meaning: quiet or perseverance (the meaning i like best personally) depending on the spelling. And it's a take off of the name Nirav. It's a rare name but I've come across Indian folks and people from around the world who have that name (mainly the Carribean). It's been a real pleasure to read most people's comments but there's no need to be rude.

I liked what Ravi the Kurler had to say about names and being connected to his name. I personally refuse to change my name for the sake of letting non-South Asians off the hook in name pronunciations. I was born and raised here all my life and I can't be accepted for my name? I found that ridiculous which is why I responded to her...No she's not South Asian or of any Asian/Middle Eastern descent. Not to mention I'm a serious activist when it comes to immigrant rights.

Hairy-D hahaha I have a couple of friends who are really into the bike community I'm gonna work with them and build a bike most likely....I guess that means it's the bike kitchens for me!

Abhi- you cracked me up with your one-liner last night so forget what Taz says ;)

It's really funny seeing how many comments have come in...When Taz said she wanted to blog this, I had no idea there'd be comments...Keep bloggin people. Take care!

...black.

soundsgood2me(#62) , you are of course entitled to your views, but I personally like it when people have unusual/interesting names. I usually ask people with unusual names how they got them, what they mean, etc, and I often end up learning an interesting thing or two.

Indian_immigrant:

Most of us 1st gen immigrants have had to deal with these kind of 'fresh of the boat' comments, not from Americans but our 'fellow South Asian' ABCDs. And its not limited to comments, but parodies of our accents , dress sense and even worse.
Personally it does not affect me at all, I pity ABCDs whose only sense of self worth comes from their American accent and their pathetically metrosexual sense of style.

So true. You kind of shake it off when the comments are from a person who doesn't know a whole lot about other cultures. Comments from 2-geners are mostly out of hatred (and not ignorance). They know who you are and where you come from. On one hand, these people (2nd-geners) cry foul every time someone asks them "where r u really from"..and on the other hand, they habitually dish out hateful remarks to fellow "South Asians". Talk about dual standards !

Nirva,

Your name is not that uncommon. There is a huge deterrgent company in India named Nirva - It was named after the daughter of the owner, and it used to have his daughter's picture in sparkling whites as a trademark. I am not sure whether the company is still around, or it merged but that is an aside issue.

nerva.

Nirva,

Your name is not that uncommon. There is a huge deterrgent company in India named Nirva - It was named after the daughter of the owner, and it used to have his daughter's picture in sparkling whites as a trademark. I am not sure whether the company is still around, or it merged but that is an aside issue.

That's NirMa.

That's NirMa

you are right, sorry.

Ya it's Nirma Washing Powder...Every time I'd go to India my cousins would sing the theme song to me...lol

Jai Singh:

Personally I think it would have been wiser for him to have fabricated a country rather than picking a real one, especially as I remember what it was like when many English "comedians" would make similar jokes and impressions at the expense of British (South) Asians.

David Baddiel in TIME Magazine:

"There's something funny about it being a genuine place," says fellow British comedian David Baddiel, who went to the same private high school and Cambridge a few years before Baron Cohen. "That's what makes Sacha's comedy modern, because if that had been an older comedian, Borat would have been from Stupidlandia or something."

Kush, are you talking about Nirma?
....Washing powder nirma, washing powder nirma, Nirma! and Nirma detergent tikiya - iski chaag ne to jaadu kar diya.....paani me rehkar bhi yeh kam gale, dheron kapde dhoye aur zyada chale, Nirma detergent tikiya....

Indian_immigrant:

Most of us 1st gen immigrants have had to deal with these kind of 'fresh of the boat' comments, not from Americans but our 'fellow South Asian' ABCDs. And its not limited to comments, but parodies of our accents , dress sense and even worse.
Personally it does not affect me at all, I pity ABCDs whose only sense of self worth comes from their American accent and their pathetically metrosexual sense of style.

So true. You kind of shake it off when the comments are from a person who doesn't know a whole lot about other cultures. Comments from 2-geners are mostly out of hatred (and not ignorance). They know who you are and where you come from. On one hand, these people (2nd-geners) cry foul every time someone asks them "where r u really from"..and on the other hand, they habitually dish out hateful remarks to fellow "South Asians". Talk about dual standards !

Exactly. Too see such sensitivity from ABCDs of all people is ironic .They are often the worst offenders when it comes to putting down new immigrants from India. I can't help but be quite glad that they get a little taste of what we deal with quite often.
Suck it up ABCDs. Hopefully now you will get a clue why imitating someone with an Apu accent and calling them FOB is not really conducive to grand visions of a pan 'South Asian' identity.

I am not sure whether the company is still around

Nirma is very much around and had close to half a Billion US $ sales per year and provides employments to many thousands. This is company started by a man who started selling detergent soap door to door. Rags-to-riches story.

Suck it up ABCDs. Hopefully now you will get a clue why imitating someone with an Apu accent and calling them FOB is not really conducive to grand visions of a pan 'South Asian' identity.

Just chill yaar. I've seen my share of "ABCD" attitude, but this forum is definitely a whole lot more inclusive. We're all in this (name and pronunciation etc) boat together.

Nirva, I like your name, and thanks for explaining what it means.

Can I just put this out there? I really hate the term ABCD. 1st gen, 2nd gen, 1.5 whatever. I was born and raised in the States. My parents were born and raised in India. That means me Indian-American.

Yes, it can be confusing and frustrating. I want to be Indian and American and sometimes it feels like no one wants me as part of their group. Does this sob story consume my life? Well, it depends on the day.

Yes, I want people to recognize both parts of my life - the duality, if you will. Yes, I expect people to give my (admittedly difficult) name a try.

Is this all we (desi-Americans - and perhaps I can include other diasporic desis?) think about every minute of every day of our lives? No. But this is a diasporic blog, and so these are the types of issues that are going to come up.

By saying you're glad we get a taste of our own medicine (because, of course, all desi-Americans make fun of your accents and refer to you as a FOB, right?) you also are perpetuating a stereotype of yourself, and are not doing a thing to help a pan-South Asian identity. Responding to perceived hatred with more hatred is not going to fix anything.

My name is Sonia. Ha.

My last name's a bit tricky, though. Not even other Indians can tell that "Aery" is an Indian last name. Whatev, I deal with it each time.

I cannot tell you how many times at Starbucks, restauraunts or whatever I've been asked "So, how do you spell Taz?" It's almost comical.

Er, it could be Tazz or even Tas, right?

Like JayV said (#15), our bike seller probably just found it incredible that anyone would think a new Nishiki frame would be $80. Of course, all they needed to say was “are you crazy?” rather than putting a racial spin on the comment.

Folks like CBS aren’t worth getting so bent out of shape over; probably just some dim-witted high school kid trying to unload his bicycles. In fact, getting defensive and angry rarely changes such a person’s thinking.

I'd respond with something that'll just confuse him.
Like:

“Actually, I just stepped off the Love Boat” or

“Actually, I swam over. I’m a tri-athlete – that’s why I’m looking for a bike.” or

“Ok, $80 for the used frames. Does that come with a 10% anti-immigrant discount?”

Nirma is very much around and had close to half a Billion US $ sales per year and provides employments to many thousands. This is company started by a man who started selling detergent soap door to door. Rags-to-riches story.

Nirma's success is one of the most studied stories in Indian business history, both in India and outside. I am having trouble finding links online, except for this one. Quoting:

But its brand appeal itself rested on little more than a catchy jingle, and, unlike its competition, offered no psychological value. What was bewildering to large companies like Lever was that despite the crudity of his methods, Patel was able to repeat his success in one product category after another, first in detergent powders, stealing substantial volumes from Surf, and then in the detergent bars category, from Lever's Rin. Thereafter, Nirma proceeded to threaten Lever as well in premium toilet soaps (e.g., Lux) and popular bathing soaps (e.g., Lifebuoy), all with one brand name, Nirma, and relatively minimal advertising outlay. Lever's executives spoke of this with all the horror of watching an enemy inexorably advance to the heart of their fortress, in this case, the company's core brands, unaffected by all their counterattacks. Like politics, this too was war by other means.

At work here was a different philosophy of market expansion. Nirma, Ltd. followed a different method of building brand loyalty and expanding its consumer base, with respect to multinationals. It allowed a product to circulate in the hinterland markets for a period of two or more years and to build its base; it observed consumer responses to it; and it incorporated this information in the decision whether to finally promote it or not. Generous margins for wholesalers and retailers ensured that the company would not suffer for lack of a field force such as that employed by the large companies. Multinationals, for their part, perform market trials over a short period of time, usually followed by a major publicity blitz.

Also, though it does not say here, the daughter's name was Nirupama.

I cannot tell you how many times at Starbucks, restauraunts or whatever I've been asked "So, how do you spell Taz?" It's almost comical.

Er, it could be Tazz or even Tas, right?

It's a nickname after a common CARTOON character. I mean, it'd be one thing if it was short for something (my bhalu nam is not that similar to the nick), but really it is just name after a cartoom character. so it's silly to misspell it.

...black.

Can I just put this out there? I really hate the term ABCD. 1st gen, 2nd gen, 1.5 whatever. I was born and raised in the States. My parents were born and raised in India. That means me Indian-American.

Tamasha, I apologize for usage of the term. I do understand it is derogatory, as much as the term FOB is (by what it conveys). I use the term "ABCD" exclusively as a derogatory term for those 2-gens who give me the "attitude" the minute they find out where I'm from, without trying to get to know me or anything. Definitely, not all 2-gens or Indian-Americans are like that, especially those on this forum.

This all seems like a terribly unfortunate misunderstanding. Craigslist isn't quite the home of the morally/mentally superior either. I actually thought it was a play on her name that went something like "what nerve!" but I could be wrong. Add me to the list of people that isn't really blinking an eye.

And by the way, as an Indian Christian with the first name 'Meena' I consider myself very lucky that my name is not Americanized, like so many are, but I don't think its fair to judge Kalpen Modi (and perhaps, in turn, Mindy Kaling/Vera Chokalingam (sp?)) for something that just seems to have a better ring to it in a business that is entirely superficially driven.

LOL. i always laugh when i see "choka-lingam." am i evil? :)

btw, mindy doesn't know a brown language. her mother speaks bengali, hindi and english, and her father tamil and english, so she grew up with english.

One of my brothers-in-law is a white American with a pretty standard name of Bruce Hall. He tells me that sometimes he, too, gets the "can you spell that" question. Chalk it up to our political correctness, or the quality of schools. I don't know which.

I used to travel to Hong Kong on business every few months for a period of ten years. Almost all the Chinese I worked with had Anglo-Saxon handles, not as a sell-out but just to facilitate things for the visiting customers and suppliers. I personally haven't done that, but one wonders if there is a cultural difference between Indians and Chinese that makes one race obsess over the anglicizing of their names and the other race blithely adopting monikers while still keeping their real names intact.

Not evil. I called that too.

I personally haven't done that, but one wonders if there is a cultural difference between Indians and Chinese that makes one race obsess over the anglicizing of their names and the other race blithely adopting monikers while still keeping their real names intact.

how exactly would you 'anglicize' many chinese names? some muslims have which are easily anglicizable because of a common semitic root. similarly, some indian names have syllables which be extracted easily. i don't think the same works with chinese names with a precise tonal sequence.

LOL. i always laugh when i see "choka-lingam." am i evil? :)

btw, mindy doesn't know a brown language. her mother speaks bengali, hindi and english, and her father tamil and english, so she grew up with english.

Yeah, I pretty much laughed at that name the first time I saw it too.

I don't know any other language fluently either because, although I have traveled to India every other year since I was three, nobody ever spoke malayalam with me. Only "Yenglish". Plus, I'm scared of my "AB(C)D" (I also hate that term)accent coming out at inopportune moments and being laughed out of town.

No, no, I don't mean anglicizing Chinese names. I meant anglican first names, like Raymond Chang, Eric Woo. They have these names printed on their business cards in English, but they will also have their real Chinese names printed in Chinese alphabets. This custom of the Chinese is only limited to the first name.

Incidentally, isn't the changing of first names fairly common in the US among most European immigrants even when the root words are not easily changeable? I am thinking primarily of Germanic, East European, Russian, not so much French/Italian etc.

No, no, I don't mean anglicizing Chinese names. I meant anglican first names, like Raymond Chang, Eric Woo. They have these names printed on their business cards in English, but they will also have their real Chinese names printed in Chinese alphabets. This custom of the Chinese is only limited to the first name.

yeah, my point is this: assume you have a name like "anil." you can go by "nil," and pronounce is like "neil." if you are muslim and have a name like saira, 'anglicizing' is even easier because an english equivalent already exists from the common semitic root. on the other hand, consider hu jintao. first, hu is is 'last name' right, since the order is reversed in east asia. what about jintao? how would you anglicize it? jin? tao? seems easy enough, but i suspect that the tones would be so mangled so as to make both them pretty unrecognizable vis-a-vis their original chinese form. in contrast, going from anil -> neil is more intelligible, even if you are changing things.

and, i can actually use a european example: my experience with people of hungarian origin (as one of my co-workers' grandparents) is that if they had a magyar surname they changed it into something totally different because there wasn't a point in preserving those names because they are inscrutable to english speakers. this obviously didn't happen as much for scandinavians, whose last names like "anderson/andersen" are often similar to some english names (especially from northwest england, the danelaw).

anyway, i'm just bring this up because i've heard the question mooted often "why do brown people keep their names and east asians not?" i think part of does have to do with attitudes toward assimilation, but i think with the chinese a big factor is that the linguistic chasm is too wide to really be bridged with any level of fidelity.

Let's not forget the economic necessity of changing one's beloved Indian first name. If one is a computer programmer, doctor or business exec, one can maintain the real Indian name very easily. If one has to sell real estate or insurance for a living, jobs that require contact with all and sundry, not all of whom are educated enough to learn Indian names, one has to do whatever is expedient to make a living.

"linguistic chasm is too wide to really be bridged with any level of fidelity"

I am not too sure if the tonal gap between Chinese and English is the reason. Tones are mangled with Indian names, too. The degree of mangling may be irrelevant. I am wondering if the Chinese willingness to abandon Chinese first names altogether and just go for English names is a result of a very long immigrant history. The Chinese settled in almost every corner of the world. The Indians did not. But again, their immigration patterns and history may not explain it fully either.

I am not too sure if the tonal gap between Chinese and English is the reason. Tones are mangled with Indian names, too. The degree of mangling may be irrelevant.

but if you mangle a chinese tone it can turn into another word. i had a friend whose chinese name always was pronounced as 'bathtub' or something by english speakers. they got the general gist of the syllables correct but their emphasis was ass-backwards.

I am wondering if the Chinese willingness to abandon Chinese first names altogether and just go for English names is a result of a very long immigrant history. The Chinese settled in almost every corner of the world. The Indians did not. But again, their immigration patterns and history may not explain it fully either.

indians have a long history in the middle east, east africa, the carribean, south africa, fiji, malaysia, etc. i am skeptical that that is it.

hello my name is gopi sheth

every one tells me to go pee and then sh$!

"indians have a long history in the middle east, east africa, the carribean, south africa, fiji, malaysia, etc. i am skeptical that that is it."

By the way, have you noticed the attempt at phonetic spelling of Indian names in the Caribbean (my wife is a Trininad Indian) vs. the almost original Indian spelling in other countries. I always wonder about Laxman as it is spelled in India. I prefer the Trinidadian Lutchman, even though it is pronouncing the word in a street fashion, which was the case with the Indian indentured laborers brought to the Caribbean.

By the way, have you noticed the attempt at phonetic spelling of Indian names in the Caribbean (my wife is a Trininad Indian) vs. the almost original Indian spelling in other countries.

transliteration is sketchy. my gf always complains that bengali names are written out inappropriately in relation to how they are pronounced (she's a stickler for that shit).

tamasha :

By saying you're glad we get a taste of our own medicine (because, of course, all desi-Americans make fun of your accents and refer to you as a FOB, right?) you also are perpetuating a stereotype of yourself, and are not doing a thing to help a pan-South Asian identity. Responding to perceived hatred with more hatred is not going to fix anything.

Hatred is a pretty strong word. Its not about hatred from my side, just annoyance that so many 2nd genners chose to judge 1st genners based on their accent or where they grew up.
My experience is not an isolated one. We are routinely called Fresh off the boat , and much worse . I'm certainly not the only 1st gen immigrant who has been subjected to 2nd gen taunts. Its been pretty much a universal experience for my fellow immigrant peeps.

And it is way more upsetting than being called off the boat via *gasp* an email exchange. So here we have a huge discussion about a pretty innocous email exchange in which an ABCD gets a small taste of what we 1st genners have to deal with much more often from our supposed 'South Asian' brothers. Can no one see the irony? As they say, what goes around comes around.

There is such a huge disconnect between all this talk of South Asian solidarity when the fact is that there are huge walls of division in our community.

Good luck in selling your bikes and I hope you find the time to grow up as an adult who can conduct a business transaction in real English. Not pre-teen webenglish.

That is just being too nice to some one who is as insulting as that CBS.

I would paste this on Craigslist to let everyone know what a knucklehead this person is.

Call him a racist...afterall he is one.

out inappropriately in relation to how they are pronounced (she's a stickler for that shit).

brown...

No, no, I don't mean anglicizing Chinese names. I meant anglican first names, like Raymond Chang, Eric Woo. They have these names printed on their business cards in English, but they will also have their real Chinese names printed in Chinese alphabets. This custom of the Chinese is only limited to the first name.

Yes. I was talking to a chinese guy and he was saying that as soon as they join a company, the HR gives them their "english" name like Peter, Alice etc.

I find your comments Indian_Immigrant interesting. That's definitely true that many first generation South Asian immigrants are dealing with quite awful stereotypes in the way of accents and derogatory terms like "FOB". It is unfortunate that there's such a disconnect between first generation immigrants and those born here. But not all “ABCDs” act this way.

There's a lot of us who are heavily invested in the South Asian community and working with people of all generations by being involved with local South Asian organizing movements.

In truth as an "ABCD" (personally I don't like this term at all....I sorta equate it with FOB) I had a lot of similar experiences growing up in a neighborhood and attending school where I made up 50% of the Indian population in my school (I was the only Indian kid in elementary school) and my family was the only Indian family in my immediate neighborhood for a majority of my childhood. My family and I went through a lot because of it. It’s funny because family tells you you’re desi first, American second, but when you travel to India people make it clear that you’re not Indian either….There’s no clear space for us either (at least I didn’t feel much of one). It’s a frustrating feeling…I didn’t get a sense of belonging til I started organizing in the SA community.

- c for charlie, h for hotel, a for apple, t for tom, t for tom, o for oscar, p for peter, a for apple, d for david, h for hotel, y for yankee, a for apple, y for yankee.

- other end: long pause and a failed attempt to repeat the above

- No, there are two t's after the first 'a' and there is no 'a' after the second 'y'.
(curses father for the 10,567th time for not settling for 'chatterjee').

- c for charlie, h for hotel, a for apple, t for tom, t for tom, o for oscar, p for peter, a for apple, d for david, h for hotel, y for yankee, a for apple, y for yankee.

- other end: long pause and a failed attempt to repeat the above

- No, there are two t's after the first 'a' and there is no 'a' after the second 'y'.
(curses father for the 10,567th time for not settling for 'chatterjee').

Hehe

I always spell too...sooo frustrating sometimes.

I_I:

There is such a huge disconnect between all this talk of South Asian solidarity when the fact is that there are huge walls of division in our community.

I hear you on that, but the continued use of ABCD is not going to help it. If you are going to use a term that others equate with something as bad as FOB, then how are you helping? As someone who does not use the term FOB, or make fun of accents etc., I hear that and want to run the other way, not break down the wall. I would love South Asian solidarity, but I don't want to be part of a group who considers me "confused" in a condescending manner.

Nirva:

It’s funny because family tells you you’re desi first, American second, but when you travel to India people make it clear that you’re not Indian either….There’s no clear space for us either (at least I didn’t feel much of one). It’s a frustrating feeling…

There's a lot of us who are heavily invested in the South Asian community and working with people of all generations by being involved with local South Asian organizing movements.

hello my name is gopi sheth

every one tells me to go pee and then sh$!

Thats funny

It's not just a problem with "ethnic" names. My husband's last name, which I don't use, creates just as many problems as mine (maybe I would have changed mine if his was "Jones"). Also even in India everyone gets my first name wrong because it is a somewhat rare name that sounds very similar to a more common name. So I have just become used to answering to anything in the right ballpark unless the speaker is someone I care about, in which case I correct them.

Story of my (and probably many others') life.

you know, being pretty self-absorbed the fact that i looked different from everyone else never really bothered me. but, i will admit that the only times i wished i was white was so that i would have white parents who didn't expect me to grow and develop in a culture and yet still remain totally separate and apart as if we could go back to bangladesh when we closed the door behind us after school. now after 25 years in this nation my parents are starting to understand me i think insofar as the 'homeland' which they left no longer exists and they are aliens no matter where they are. i say: welcome to my world bitch! :)

(though to be fair, i don't perceive myself as an alien in america that much, my 'tension' in values basically ended at 8 when i realized i was an explicit atheist and my parents would never 'get me,' and nor would most americans who seemed to feel that this god entity was a normal part of their lives)

desishiksa,

i love the jewish name 'weiner.'

It's actually a German name meaning "from Vienna" :)
But there is an inordinate number of words in yiddish that mean or imply "penis". Someone should do some research into that.

I do not mean to be rude, but I'm assuming you've done your, bit, deshishiksa?

(not meant in a rude way!)

As an anecdote, a professor I did some research with once had the old-school habit of addressing all his students as Mr/Ms . However, he couldn't pronounce my last name at all, so I always felt like that was a barrier with him coz he did not want to call me by first name.

A professor is a relationship for a semester not the guy behind the Starbucks counter. Don't you think it's worth correcting him and insisting that he learn it especilly if it puts you in a disadvantage by not doing so?

My name is simple and people still screw it up. I'll call and ask for someone and say it's Rupa and the person will say something like "Hold on a second Ruth" hell even fucking ET at Universal Studios said "Goodbye Ruth" when it came my turn to pass him. I was pissed. People usually say Aruba or worse Rupaul. WTF it's 4 letters, sometimes I find myself repeating the 4 letters about 6 times and then I completely insist they get it right and it ends up becoming a righteous fight. It's stupid but it's so simple and short WTF.

The best are those that ask you on the phone "Oh what Nationality is that" or "Where is that from" and I'm appalled and usually will say "That's American for you thanx" or if I'm feeling silly I'll say Martian.

My father was studying up in Syracuse in 1969 and shortened his name to Dino from Dinkar because he said people really just didn't get it and simple things ended up being a huge task. Today I think our generation has the luxury of correcting and insisting people get it right. I however do anglocize my last name because the vowel used in Marathi just doesn't exist in English.

I however do anglocize my last name because the vowel used in Marathi just doesn't exist in English.

if I'm feeling silly I'll say Martian.

A lot of 2nd gens pronounce their names the anglicized way. For example, Ra-hool for Rahul or Soo-da for Sudha. I used to think this was lame but now that I'm older and wiser I don't judge :)

Which one is that?

It's Gawle and it's the LE part like KamAL for the lotus in Marathi or Sitafal in Marathi :-)

KamAL for the lotus in Marathi

Kamal is lotus in many languages, including urdu and hindi. Who knows even german, like hansa (example the lufthansa airlines) is swan in many indo-germanic languages. Another example is "ananas" - pineapple.

Now to serious business, almost nobody mispronounces my name. Since 80s, I can only remember two people including starbucks calling me "koosh" - that is 0.0000001 % mispronounciation rate. Either, my name is very simple or I am too sexy. Latter is more likely.

i've recently adopted a "nickname." as i grow older and more bitter, i have less patience to train american tongues. =)

Either, my name is very simple or I am too sexy. Latter is more likely.

vah vah, kya bath hai!

Kamal is lotus in many languages, including urdu and hindi. Who knows even german, like hansa (example the lufthansa airlines) is swan in many indo-germanic languages. Another example is "ananas" - pineapple.

Yes, but in Urdu and Hindi y'all don't have the particular "L" that we have in marathi and the one JOAT is referring to... it's an L that I'm proud to share with our South Indian fam-o... the long-lost cousins from whom we're tragically estranged due to various twists of fate and history... indeed, the origins of marathi continue to be hotly debated...

Marathizzz also have a long track record of abusive comments, which is due to the long track record of abusive epithets hurled at us by enraged aais and belligerent babas. If you'll excuse the transliteration, such wonderful slurs include nalayak, nirlajja, ajagal, halcatt, bhadvya, ad infinitum.

We then pass on this abusiveness from father to son, from mother to daughter, to their daughters and sons, and finally to internet forums for the whole world to share. I'm a victim of the system, can't you see?

my street name is bob, silent bob.

So for some reason since 9th grade (I'm now in 11th) the teachers have goofed up on my name and pronounced it Norma. I don't see how they could make this error considering the name is clearly typed with no 'r' in it. It's almost as if they think it's a typo and want to ignore what they see and go with prior knowledge that no one could possibly have that. I have disliked my name since I was 6 years old and plan on changing it when I turn 18. The incompetence of some Americans unable to pronounce my simple name makes me wonder if I should even have my new name still be of Arabic origin. I personally think that the incompetence is just in this current area since during my elementary and middle school years in different cities NO ONE ever had any problems with my name.

I have one of the most common Indian names: Seema. Even though it is spelled phonetically, people still have a hard time pronouncing it. The worst was middle school health class (that's when we ;earn about reproduction...). I'm glad I don't have some long villager name, but I wish my parents could have given me something with 1. a better meaning than limit, and 2. something more palatable to the avg American.

As for the rift in the desi community, as an Indian born and raised in the U.S., I have felt more alienation from the INDIANS around me than anyone else. I've been called a "white-wannabe" because I have non-indian friends (which makes NO sense to me), and because I do not act super Indian. And that's just the kids! The adults don't like me because I have piercings, colored hair, I'm not a doctor but a designer, and I have a non-Indian boyfriend. How scandalous of me to assimilate into American society! Perhaps it is the Indians who still have their Indian mentality so deeply ingrained (very often FOBs) that cause the rift, not the "ABCDs."

Yes, but in Urdu and Hindi y'all don't have the particular "L" that we have in marathi

Yup that one. The LE (curl your tongue inwards so it touches the roof of the back of your mouth and just let out a "AAA" sound) is common in some South Indian languages. I have a friend who is Marathi but from the south and traces his lineage back to Shivaji maharaj and apparently his brother went south and settled down there and there is an entire clan of Maraths down there that speak a Malyali Marathi mix. Fascinating.

Either, my name is very simple or I am too sexy. Latter is more likely.

It's your sexiness KOOsh like SwOOsh baby!

Marathizzz also have a long track record of abusive comments, which is due to the long track record of abusive epithets hurled at us by enraged aais and belligerent babas. If you'll excuse the transliteration, such wonderful slurs include nalayak, nirlajja, ajagal, halcatt, bhadvya, ad infinitum

Word!! You missed kutra, gadhada and bhosada. :-)

I have disliked my name since I was 6 years old and plan on changing it when I turn 18.

To what? And you've disliked it because people can't say it right?

I have disliked my name since I was 6 years old and plan on changing it when I turn 18.

noooooooooooo maaaaaaaaaaaaa dont do it ;-)

I have felt more alienation from the INDIANS around me than anyone else. I've been called a "white-wannabe" because I have non-indian friends (which makes NO sense to me), and because I do not act super Indian. And that's just the kids! The adults don't like me because I have piercings, colored hair, I'm not a doctor but a designer, and I have a non-Indian boyfriend. How scandalous of me to assimilate into American society! Perhaps it is the Indians who still have their Indian mentality so deeply ingrained (very often FOBs) that cause the rift, not the "ABCDs."

I'm very familiar with that scenario as I have fallen victim to the same "discrimination." It's even more so since I live in mini India (Bay Area, CA). I've always been told by Indian and even American people that I'm not Indian enough because I don't show interest in Bollywood or other things that contribute to the "being Indian" factor. This BS mostly comes from FOBs who tend to hold on to their strong Indian mentality like NotConfused stated. It frankly is none of their business as to what degree of Indian I am. So I can see how the rift between "AB(C)D" and FOBs is created.

The name is Balasubraminiam, Balls to you ;-)

Can I just put this out there? I really hate the term ABCD.

Right on, Tamasha. Indian_Immigrant, there's nothing justified in what you've experienced and what you describe, and I'm not going to defend it. But all of us have a responsibility to break the cycle and be the change.

peace
p

NotConfused (love the name) & kitkat:
That's pretty much what I was trying to say here, in terms of my experiences, although I emphasized the similarities of each group's experiences. Like you, I'm not really into Bollywood, I'm not a doctor or engineer or lawyer or investment banker or any of the acceptable professions. But I do take a different kind of interest in my "homeland" and that's not something I need validation for (anymore).

I think we all see how the riff can occur, however, as I said previously, I don't support the use of the either term (ABCD or FOB). I don't think it furthers anyone's cause.

Clearly the Piper is more eloquent than I. Which is why he's the Piper.
;)

Nirva :

I find your comments Indian_Immigrant interesting. That's definitely true that many first generation South Asian immigrants are dealing with quite awful stereotypes in the way of accents and derogatory terms like "FOB". It is unfortunate that there's such a disconnect between first generation immigrants and those born here. But not all “ABCDs” act this way.

There's a lot of us who are heavily invested in the South Asian community and working with people of all generations by being involved with local South Asian organizing movements.

In truth as an "ABCD" (personally I don't like this term at all....I sorta equate it with FOB) I had a lot of similar experiences growing up in a neighborhood and attending school where I made up 50% of the Indian population in my school (I was the only Indian kid in elementary school) and my family was the only Indian family in my immediate neighborhood for a majority of my childhood. My family and I went through a lot because of it. It’s funny because family tells you you’re desi first, American second, but when you travel to India people make it clear that you’re not Indian either….There’s no clear space for us either (at least I didn’t feel much of one). It’s a frustrating feeling…I didn’t get a sense of belonging til I started organizing in the SA community.

Hey, maximum respect for giving back to the community. I can't say I disagree with much of what you say.

tamasha :

I hear you on that, but the continued use of ABCD is not going to help it. If you are going to use a term that others equate with something as bad as FOB, then how are you helping? As someone who does not use the term FOB, or make fun of accents etc., I hear that and want to run the other way, not break down the wall.

I'll admit it's not particularly constructive to use the word ABCD. Its more of a defense mechanism really, reaction to the numerous FOB comments.

NotConfused :

As for the rift in the desi community, as an Indian born and raised in the U.S., I have felt more alienation from the INDIANS around me than anyone else. I've been called a "white-wannabe" because I have non-indian friends (which makes NO sense to me), and because I do not act super Indian. And that's just the kids! The adults don't like me because I have piercings, colored hair, I'm not a doctor but a designer, and I have a non-Indian boyfriend. How scandalous of me to assimilate into American society! Perhaps it is the Indians who still have their Indian mentality so deeply ingrained (very often FOBs) that cause the rift, not the "ABCDs."

Have you ever been to India? Go check out Bombay, Delhi, Bangalore. yes there are plenty of punk rockers, headbangers etc there, with tattos, pericings etc. There are lots of creative types, filmmakers, artists etc. All Indians are not engineers or doctors.
There is no such thing as an Indian mentality.
More likely this is the mentality of your parents generation , which you presume to be one of all 1st gen immigrants or Indians. Its just another example of 2nd genners stereotyping 1st gen immigrants.
India has moved on since the 70s. Equating the present values of 1st gens or Indians in general with your parents values is ridiculous.

ABCD is an acronym conjured up by FOB's who were not accepted by them (ABCDs)

FOB is an acronym conjured up by ABCD's who didnt want to accept them (FOBs)

Oh yeah, if being into Bollywood is supposed to be a barometer of Indianness, then that would disqualify me and most of my peeps...along with large parts of South India ,North East India and much of South Bombay too .. :)
Don't let anyone define your indentity for you...If you feel Indian you are, if you feel Indian American you are, don't let closed minds judge you, I am 1st gen 'FOB' as you put it, I have friends who are all over the place, doing music and stuff, whatever makes you happy...

i think that the "indian mentality" is not a first generation construct, but a second generation construct created in response to the identity of their parents. some 2nd gens that i know have a very narrow idea of what is considered indian because of what they have seen/been exposed to by their parents and specific community, and they find others that have this same idea when they go off to college. in order to feel close to what they know as indian from home, they begin to find solidarity in those with their shared experiences. this in itself is not a bad thing, a very good thing in fact, but the problem comes when these 2nd gens start thinking that their indian experience is the only "true" indian experience and people that have a lot non-indian friends, aren't into bollywood, can't speak hindi, etc aren't "indian enough." especially when a 2nd gen indian grows up in a strong indian community that may be predominantly one subgroup of indians (like gujuratis, punjabis, etc), they think that they know all about being indian-american and fail to notice that the indian-american/south asian-american experience is diverse in itself.

India has moved on since the 70s. Equating the present values of 1st gens or Indians in general with your parents values is ridiculous.

It has moved faster than any place on the earth except China. The change (for good or bad) you see in India in every sphere is astonishing. I have made 6 visits since 1999, sometimes, my jaw drops down when I was in Spice Mall in Delhi 3 months ago.

Let's leave Seema behan alone, she has other issues.

Indian Immigrant,

It is strange that you take offence to people calling you FOBs while addressing them in all posts as ABCDs. Do you know what that term refers to?. Are you a troll??

Ignored and moved on. A response gives too much legitimacy to an immature instigator. These battles have to be fought elsewhere.

first of all - this thread should have ended soon after this point being made!!!!

btw - for all of you saying that you dont want to be judged by other indians on how indian who you - some of you have commented that you want to change your INDIAN name - this is classic ABCD kind of talk - and no one gives a f#$! what your profession is and you wont be called an ABCD because of it - it is because things like you complaining about minute things like above that people call you ABCD - get over it!!!

I've always been told by Indian and even American people that I'm not Indian enough because I don't show interest in Bollywood or other things that contribute to the "being Indian" factor.

Just my personal observation: ABDs are a lot more into Bollywood than FOBs.

it is because things like you complaining about minute things like above that people call you ABCD - get over it!!!

ok i take offense to that. yes, many american-born desis are confused about a lot of things growing up. but so are a lot of kids!!! almost everyone at one point in their lives have disliked something about themselves, even for just a second, whether it be their name, their hair, their height, their voice, etc. that's just being human. and as for being "judged" by other indians, this is a real thing, it really does happen, and for people that are on the "outside," it can be an incredibly frustrating time growing up, especially when you add on your run-of-the-mill adolescent issues.

Perhaps it is the Indians who still have their Indian mentality so deeply ingrained (very often FOBs) that cause the rift, not the "ABCDs."

Most "FOB"s are Indians...and not Americans or Indian-Americans. They are Indians living in America..and often have a balanced viewpoint of both the cultures. They have a bigger perspective..having spent time in India and US.

Just my personal observation: ABDs are a lot more into Bollywood than FOBs.

yea i've seen that too. i think it has to do with the fact that bollywood is a tangible thing that can connect you with "the homeland." 1st gens get to grow up with "indian culture" around them 24/7, and 2nd gens need to create that culture, so they use bollywood as one tool.

vaishnavi :

i think that the "indian mentality" is not a first generation construct, but a second generation construct created in response to the identity of their parents. some 2nd gens that i know have a very narrow idea of what is considered indian because of what they have seen/been exposed to by their parents and specific community, and they find others that have this same idea when they go off to college. in order to feel close to what they know as indian from home, they begin to find solidarity in those with their shared experiences. this in itself is not a bad thing, a very good thing in fact, but the problem comes when these 2nd gens start thinking that their indian experience is the only "true" indian experience and people that have a lot non-indian friends, aren't into bollywood, can't speak hindi, etc aren't "indian enough." especially when a 2nd gen indian grows up in a strong indian community that may be predominantly one subgroup of indians (like gujuratis, punjabis, etc), they think that they know all about being indian-american and fail to notice that the indian-american/south asian-american experience is diverse in itself.

word. Great analysis.

ok i take offense to that. yes, many american-born desis are confused about a lot of things growing up. but so are a lot of kids!!!

since when is being in your 20's still growing up?!!!

first of all, i think that you're still growing up in your 20s. compare a 22 year old out of college with a 29 year old: big difference. i myself am on the younger half of my 20s, and when i read this board, there are a lot of issues that come up that i have not begun to have dealt with. and people (of all cultures) go through periods of their lives when they question some part of them, this is not something that 2nd gens have a monopoly on. my indian cousins that have lived their whole life in india go through their own set of issues with the pull of rural v urbanization in their lives.

There was an ABD guy I knew in college... his parents named him "Anil."
What could possibly go wrong?

i am actually in college and have dealth with my share of ABCDs and FOBs - from what i noticed, it is desi girls who most have these "identity" issues

anyway, i'm just bring this up because i've heard the question mooted often "why do brown people keep their names and east asians not?" i think part of does have to do with attitudes toward assimilation, but i think with the chinese a big factor is that the linguistic chasm is too wide to really be bridged with any level of fidelity.

around 60% of my friends are east asian and i grew up in an east asian country. my best guess on the higher proportion of anglicized names in east asian communities is directly related to the much higher number of christian converts in those communities. my best friend (east asian) told me that her family sees traditional asian names as being non-christian, heresy even. i have spent a lot of time around east asian christians and many personally chose or had their names chosen from the bible. the east asians with traditional names i knew growing up were almost always buddhist. even the indians i know with non-indian names tend to be christian, though times are a-changin.

i know that in my (religious) community, a person's name and the naming process itself is highly ritualized and sacred. many of us are given the name of a god/dess. witch doctors and magicks are utilized; it's fairly intense. i'm not sure what the various east asian views are on the naming of a child. i have always assumed that it would be much more of a rebellion for a hindu person in my community to name their kid "michelle" than for an east asian family to do the same.

NYT article:

It's my name. Learn to say it.

An East Asian friend's recent blog entry:

Scroll to October 16th for "It's all in the name"

just for the flip-side, notes on anglo names in the indian context:

---
as an american living in india i often use an indian name when ordering things, etc. my name is theresa and it gets confused when i say it with an american accent, i often get called sarita and just agree.

---
i was working in a village in uttar pradesh and introduced myself to the village council.

an elder asked, "but you are from america? how do you have an indian name?"
me: "excuse me?"
him: "theresa? it's an indian name, mother theresa the indian saint!"

---
using this tactic to order pizza has had mixed results, i usually say, "theresa, just like mother theresa" -- at least 50% of the time i will get a pizza and on the box will be written, "1 veg pizza for mother theresa".

musical,

Your statement is true but you choose wrong examples. Dharmendra's name is Dharam Singh Deol and there are plenty many sikh guys in Punjab with the name Dharminder (which is Dharmendra in Hindi).

I stand corrected.

Knock, knock!

Q: What did the south Indian leg-spinner name his daughter?
A: Bala-tirupura-sundari*

Q: What did his name his son?
A: Why, Pitchumani, of course.

* Only the Tams will get this.

Marathizzz also have a long track record of abusive comments, which is due to the long track record of abusive epithets hurled at us by enraged aais and belligerent babas. If you'll excuse the transliteration, such wonderful slurs include nalayak, nirlajja, ajagal, halcatt, bhadvya, ad infinitum

Word!! You missed kutra, gadhada and bhosada. :-)

That is so true. I've experienced quite a few and it's actually more hilarious than offensive (depending on the context, of course).

from what i noticed, it is desi girls who most have these "identity" issues

in my experience, it isn't that girls in general have more "identity issues," but rather, they are more obvious/vocal about being confused. my desi guy friends have had their fair share of issues with the desi community and trying to find their place in it, but they don't talk about it like how the girls i know do. girls tend to publicly discuss/analyze all of their issues more in general (at least in my experience). i think the issue of figuring out one's identity is something that all people, not just desis and certainly not just 2nd gens, can relate to in their own way.

and also-- in my personal experience, because of my parents' upbringing and their culture, as a woman, my american and desi identities can sometimes be at odds because of gender. what is allowed for me as an indian woman is sometimes the opposite of the privileges i receive as being an american woman. this can definitely cause frustration and confusion that my brothers do not have to deal with.

what is allowed for me as an indian woman is sometimes the opposite of the privileges i receive as being an american woman. this can definitely cause frustration and confusion that my brothers do not have to deal with

if you feel that you have certain privileges and they are opposite of values you been taught, then dont do it - to me its a simple decion - why lose your mind over it is what i say :-)

some decisions are easier than others. what about the values that you didn't agree with in the first place? the eternal tug of war of being a 2nd gen.... :)

i lived 12 years of my life in india and now have lived in us for 9 years - i am what you might call a pseudo-2nd gen desi

maybe this is why things have always been simple for me - my heart has always been and always will be indian - and may be thats why i never had to face these so called identity issues and i really cannot respond any tug of war of being a 2nd gen

Marathizzz also have a long track record of abusive comments, which is due to the long track record of abusive epithets hurled at us by enraged aais and belligerent babas. If you'll excuse the transliteration, such wonderful slurs include nalayak, nirlajja, ajagal, halcatt, bhadvya, ad infinitum

Word!! You missed kutra, gadhada and bhosada. :-)

That is so true. I've experienced quite a few and it's actually more hilarious than offensive (depending on the context, of course).

I love being us, don't you?

Nirva, sorry to read about your interaction with that racist dolt. That was so much crap for a name. I agree with floridian #94 - I would have a much harder time trying to preserve my name's integrity 'out there' if it weren't for my tech-type job where more than 1/2 the dev folk are desi.

I didn't get the part about people finding it funny or non-racist for CBS to throw in the fob comment. or 'whateva'. Whatever!! I don't see how that sort of 'communication' is acceptable banter for the purposes of commerce. To me if I don't know the other person the more likely I'm to keep to the topic at hand. Those comments were inappropriate at best and most definitely much worse. So what if the bike doesn't sell for $80? The ad likely didn't say - 'offer $230 and you got a deal, offer $80 and you got a racial slur (or two)!'!!!

On the name thing - I too have a 'clearly' not american name, one most non-desis haven't heard of. I have a whole schpeil worked out ala a for apple, b for bat etc. It takes me like 5 min to get my name down at the other end, so I MUCH prefer entering it online into accounts and such - faster, more accurate, and my vocal chords thank me for it!

i am what you might call a pseudo-2nd gen desi

maybe this is why things have always been simple for me - my heart has always been and always will be indian - and may be thats why i never had to face these so called identity issues and i really cannot respond any tug of war of being a 2nd gen

What I find mind blogoling is how you've labelled yourself with a convoluted name to express just how simbly Indian your heart is :)

And how you're on a cultural identity blog...

give in to the confusion, don't fight it ;) There are a lot of people whose hearts will always be Indian but that doesn't mean they can't be other things as well...

Clearly the Piper is more eloquent than I. Which is why he's the Piper.

awww, you're too kind. and too modest -- you kick up a fuss with much eloquence yourself. ;)

i am actually in college and have dealt with my share of ABCDs and FOBs - from what i noticed, it is desi girls who most have these "identity" issues

Talk about issues-I went to school in Cali and the largest share of hatred resides in the ABCD women. Somehow desi boyz growing up in Americuh have no such hang-ups-heck a lot of them even go back to India and still do the arranged marraige thingy.

in my experience, it isn't that girls in general have more "identity issues," but rather, they are more obvious/vocal about being confused. my desi guy friends have had their fair share of issues with the desi community and trying to find their place in it, but they don't talk about it like how the girls i know do. girls tend to publicly discuss/analyze all of their issues more in general (at least in my experience). i think the issue of figuring out one's identity is something that all people, not just desis and certainly not just 2nd gens, can relate to in their own way.

Is that a polite way of admitting that you are all perpetually pissed, drama queens.

Sometimes the people behind the counter can be IQ-challenged. I once went to the cheesecake factory in SF and there was a waiting list to get seated. I went up to the counter to put my name on the list. Knowing that using my own name would keep the people behind me there for 15 minutes, I said my name is Zero. The woman at the counter promptly asked me and how do you spell that sir? Z-E-R-O. Z for Zebra, E for Ed, R for Russia, O for...Z-E-R-O.

This is over-reaction and stupid.

Nirva needs to grow up (and so do a lot of Noobie desis.)

An advice to all who think an americanized name is the way out. I am afraid, that's not. Wait for some more years-the rise of CHINDIA- will ensure that the americans will have to tune their ear to more of these exotic names. Till then, may be use an alias but never change your name officially. That will be kinda removing diversity from the world.

...at least 50% of the time i will get a pizza and on the box will be written, "1 veg pizza for mother theresa".

That's hilarious! =)

I usually give my name as a tamil or hindi curse at fancy resturaunts. its fun to watch the snobby resturaunt employee asking if there are any "rundi's in the crowd...im looking for a rundi party"

I usually give my name as a tamil or hindi curse at fancy resturaunts.

Nice..I'm going to start doing this too. In NYC, with the large number of desis that you typically find in restaurants these days, I'm sure there'll be amusement all around.

nirva...na

ABCD kind of talk - and no one gives a f#$! what your profession is and you wont be called an ABCD because of it - it is because things like you complaining about minute things like above that people call you ABCD - get over it!!!

Identity issues run deep with youth of every culture. To disregard them and make statements like the above smacks of stupidity.

from what i noticed, it is desi girls who most have these "identity" issues

Talk about issues-I went to school in Cali and the largest share of hatred resides in the ABCD women. Somehow desi boyz growing up in Americuh have no such hang-ups-heck a lot of them even go back to India and still do the arranged marraige thingy.

It's not a surprise that both of these comments came from guys. If you get off your high horses perhaps you might take a minute to understand the gender issue when it comes to Indian culture and most Asian culture. Women always carry and always have the burden of conforming to and passing on culture (here and in India) hence the larger identity issues.

It isn't exactly a secret in the diaspora that there are double standards in how boys are raised in the same family versus girls perhaps worse than they are in India and this is bound to cause conflict in a woman's mind about right and wrong.

Heck I got past my issues a long time ago and I still question myself on the most silliest of choices because of the fucked up concept of the "good Indian girl". I'd be damned before someone tries to tell me those issues are trivial because they are real for me and so many other women like me who grew up here.

For me it isn't hard to comprehend that the women might have more conflicts than men. Perhaps those men that don't understand and feel the need to put these women down might grow some maturity and understand them versus run off to India to find the girl to please mom who'll leave at some point when she wisens up to the immaturity anyway!

v. amusing to see good ol' ali g getting people's knickers in such a twist with the borat persona - :-) boy does the US of A lack a sense of humour or what.

In certain situations, people have no problems pronouncing my name. How badly can you mangle a name like Monika, right? Interestingly, when they see my brown face, that totally trips them up: Monka, Moneeka, the variations are endless. It's almost like they expect to have difficulty saying my name just cuz I have a brown face to go with a very common first name that happens to be popular in India! But on the phone, where they don't see a face, no problem. They get it right every time.

Indian_Immigrant:

So here we have a huge discussion about a pretty innocous email exchange in which an ABCD gets a small taste of what we 1st genners have to deal with much more often from our supposed 'South Asian' brothers. Can no one see the irony? As they say, what goes around comes around.

Actually, ABD's get this kind of treatment all the time from the majority American culture. Perhaps you (1st gen) think that ABD's are accepted as part of the majority, but they are not.

In my experience it was 1st gens who were quick to label ABCD's, and the FOB label rose in reaction. Obviously different from your experience. So, neither of our experiences are definitive. Neither you, 1st gen, nor I, 2nd gen, is the exclusively injured party.

So, if you are concerned over the divisiveness in our community between 1st and 2nd gens, get over your bitterness first. You cannot expect that the divisiveness will be resolved by all 2nd gens falling at your feet and embracing your 1st gen perspective as the correct one (any more than a 2nd gen can expect the same from you).

I think the main beef 1st gen folks have is that 2nd gen women don't go out with them, they will go out with all kind of specimens but haldly ever the home grown variety. :D
That the root of resentment in my opinion

test

Talk about issues-I went to school in Cali and the largest share of hatred resides in the ABCD women. Somehow desi boyz growing up in Americuh have no such hang-ups-heck a lot of them even go back to India and still do the arranged marraige thingy

Is that a polite way of admitting that you are all perpetually pissed, drama queens.

please read janeofalltrades (#174), she explains it better than i ever could.

(if you were being sarcastic/funny, forgive me for losing out on the humor, exchanging ideas over the internet has its disadvantages!)

I think the main beef 1st gen folks have is that 2nd gen women don't go out with them, they will go out with all kind of specimens but haldly ever the home grown variety. :D That the root of resentment in my opinion

Part of the problem , but overestimated IMHO. Most of my peer group here has come here after dating only desi back in India. The last thing most of us want to do here is date desi again here !

Part of the problem , but overestimated IMHO. Most of my peer group here has come here after dating only desi back in India.

I have the opposite issue. I have never dated desi. would be interesting to date someone with a similar background to myself...

What I find mind blogoling is how you've labelled yourself with a convoluted name to express just how simbly Indian your heart is :)

dude, i didnt know you were judging how much indian people are by their blog handle

either way - that argument should be in the "whats in a blog handle?" thread

For me it isn't hard to comprehend that the women might have more conflicts than men

do desi chicks ever stop having these confilcts - it never ends?!

ok here is a concrete example in my life: my parents have vocally expressed that i must marry an indian that speaks the same language as we do, while they have vocally expressed that my brothers may marry whoever they want, even though they would like it if they married indian. this double standard is solely because i am a woman, and because of that, they expect me to continue passing on indian culture to my children (which i will be expected to have). now this is not every desi girl's problem, like i said, this is just my life, but this is a conflict in my life. i've been born and raised in america, and my american outlook contradicts my parents' outlook. i love my parents and luckily i haven't come to the point in my life where i have met the man that i want to marry and decide whether or not kids are for me, but if/when i do, that will be a tough situation. a situation my brothers will not be losing any sleep over.

JOAT is actually right in post #174, at least in my experience. Much of that applies equally to 2nd-Gen desi women in the UK too.

However,

while they have vocally expressed that my brothers may marry whoever they want, even though they would like it if they married indian.

Vaishnavi, you'll find out if this is actually true if/when the time comes with your brothers. Desi parents frequently say one thing and then do something completely different in these matters.

(I'm speaking generally, I'm not saying your own parents are actually lying etc -- no offence intended. It's just that Indian parents often find themselves suddenly overcome with various negative emotions and the effects of their own parental/cultural condition, which results in them inexplicably reacting very unpredictably indeed in these issues, regardless of how liberal they may previously have claimed to be. Depends on the specific family, of course).

parental/cultural condition

Typo, that should say: conditioning

jai singh, you're absolutely right with parents saying one thing but doing another. i can't imagine what it's like trying to raise children in a culture that isn't your own and trying to preserve your way of life at the same time. there are a lot of other things that my parents have relented on that they were previously against. but for me, i can say with a good amount of certainty that my parents truly mean what they say re:marriage and will probably stick to it, especially with regards of how they have reacted to my previous relationships and the relationships of indians with non-indians (or even indians that speak a different language). the point i was trying to make is that in my family, even if my parents do change their mind on this, this is an issue that i have to worry about and my brothers don't. i was just trying to bring a real world example to explain why desi girls may seem like they have more "identity issues"-- there are gender issues piled up on top of cultural issues. (ps, no offense taken)

Don't all of us have fake names that we give out in bars/ clubs etc?
I'm always Raj Patel.
Just a sign of the higer profile that desis seem to have nowadays, many a chica has responded: Is that short for Rajeev? :)..

ok here is a concrete example in my life: my parents have vocally expressed that i must marry an indian that speaks the same language as we do, while they have vocally expressed that my brothers may marry whoever they want, even though they would like it if they married indian. this double standard is solely because i am a woman, and because of that, they expect me to continue passing on indian culture to my children (which i will be expected to have). now this is not every desi girl's problem, like i said, this is just my life, but this is a conflict in my life. i've been born and raised in america, and my american outlook contradicts my parents' outlook. i love my parents and luckily i haven't come to the point in my life where i have met the man that i want to marry and decide whether or not kids are for me, but if/when i do, that will be a tough situation. a situation my brothers will not be losing any sleep over.

based on #2, your parents think you are way more desirable to the non-desi males than your brothers are to non-desi females. Based on #1, they are saying, sure boys - try all you like - you're only going to hook up with some rancid femmes unless you go the arranged route. with you they are not so secure.

it's an odd rationalization. you obviously love your parents and this is obviously hurting you so i felt compelled to speak up in a misguided attempt to comfort you.

general custard, thanks :) i'm not losing any sleep over this, but there were just some posters here that were implying that the desi identity issue was mostly with the desi girls, and i was just trying to give some insight. i'm far too young to be thinking of marriage to ANYONE, indian, non-indian, whatever, so i don't worry about it that much now.

but for me, i can say with a good amount of certainty that my parents truly mean what they say re:marriage and will probably stick to it, especially with regards of how they have reacted to my previous relationships and the relationships of indians with non-indians

Vaishnavi you will be surprised. My good friends, a couple who has been together since college couldn't get both sets of parents to agree to them marrying after 10 years of being together and madly in love. Why? He is Pakistani and she is Hindu Punjabi, both of them born here but neither parents relented. They even separated for a year and were miserable.

Eventually both picked up and moved to California and just got hitched, away from the family in NY and without their blessings. Today they have a baby boy and everyone in the family is just fine and has come around. People get over it and get past it. If your convictions are strong and you aren't marrying a loser, parents do come around at least in the west because they realize the loss of holding onto their ego at some point.

based on #2, your parents think you are way more desirable to the non-desi males than your brothers are to non-desi females. Based on #1, they are saying, sure boys - try all you like - you're only going to hook up with some rancid femmes unless you go the arranged route. with you they are not so secure.

Hahahha brilliant.

jai singh, you're absolutely right with parents saying one thing but doing another. i can't imagine what it's like trying to raise children in a culture that isn't your own and trying to preserve your way of life at the same time.

I think ABDs need to lighten up and realize that there is a whole country of 1.5 billion people out there preserving your way of life, and they are not going anywhere. So you can go right ahead and live your own life and not give a damn, because Indian culture is going to be around even if you die your hair pink and marry into a West Indian voodoo cult, and it will do very well, thank you. I am not saying ABDs should not be involved with India culture, but they take this entire idea of the Indian way of life way too seriously.

After all, what Indians do is Indian culture, isn't it?

You can blame Gotham Chopra for that.

blame mom and dad. he didnt name himself (im assuming)...

I think ABDs need to lighten up and realize that there is a whole country of 1.5 billion people out there preserving your way of life, and they are not going anywhere. So you can go right ahead and live your own life and not give a damn, because Indian culture is going to be around even if you die your hair pink and marry into a West Indian voodoo cult, and it will do very well, thank you. I am not saying ABDs should not be involved with India culture, but they take this entire idea of the Indian way of life way too seriously.

You really believe this is about "being part of desi culture and perserving it" isn't it?

You live in a house you follow the rules of the house, generally willingly because you love your parents who have taught you to live life a certain way and raised with you much pains. You grow up and find out that it may not be all that it's cracked up to be and you start questioning that way of life taught at home when it conflicts with the way of life outside in the real world. You know following a different life would hurt your parents.

Are you now saying that the kids should at that point tell the parents to fuck off?

I'm assuming you are saying that because I can't imagine why you would bring up 'preservation of Indian culture' to counter someone's identity issue as if that's an issue in itself.

You can blame Gotham Chopra for that.

blame mom and dad. he didnt name himself (im assuming)...

You assume incorrectly. They named him Gautama.

You grow up and find out that it may not be all that it's cracked up to be and you start questioning that way of life taught at home when it conflicts with the way of life outside in the real world. You know following a different life would hurt your parents.

Are you now saying that the kids should at that point tell the parents to fuck off?

These are universal issues. I don't see how they explain the ABD situation. That is why I brought up the issue that maybe ABDs feel a special responsibility as a minority to preserve their culture.

I think it is a result of a vast number of Chinese immigrants wanting to be perceived as "white"

I have had a number of close friends who were Chinese immigrants (or the children of immigrant parents) who had "American" names at school and "Chinese" names at home. When I asked why they changed their names, they explained that in transferring the written form of the name from Chinese characters to the Roman alphabet, there were some subtle features of pronunciation that were not conveyed. Also, they found that most Americans could not pronounce their names quite correctly and instead of listening to their names get butchered every day, they were more comfortable using an "American" name with Americans. I think that there are probably a variety of different reasons for people adhering to or changing their names, but for my Chinese-American friends, this was the reason that I heard most often.

I think ABDs need to lighten up and realize that there is a whole country of 1.5 billion people out there preserving your way of life, and they are not going anywhere. So you can go right ahead and live your own life and not give a damn, because Indian culture is going to be around even if you die your hair pink and marry into a West Indian voodoo cult, and it will do very well, thank you. I am not saying ABDs should not be involved with India culture, but they take this entire idea of the Indian way of life way too seriously.

After all, what Indians do is Indian culture, isn't it?

Its a matter of keeping their culture alive in their homeland (USA), in their community, and in their families. No on is under the delusions that they are the last remianing desis on earth...

I think ABDs need to lighten up and realize that there is a whole country of 1.5 billion people out there preserving your way of life, and they are not going anywhere.

I don't really trust those people to do a good job.

Its a matter of keeping their culture alive in their homeland (USA), in their community, and in their families. No on is under the delusions that they are the last remianing desis on earth...

well said. yea rebelling against parents is a universal phenomenon, but there's an added layer when you're a 2nd gen-- are you rebelling against just your parents or your culture? this is the question that always came up in my mind (and the one my parents would ask me, cuz they were going through a learning experience just like i was). where does parenting end and indian culture begin? that to me is the specific 2nd gen angle to the equation.

That is why I brought up the issue that maybe ABDs feel a special responsibility as a minority to preserve their culture.

Again you are making it about perservation of culture and I'm telling you that it has NOTHING to do with one feeling the need to PRESERVE their own culture and everything to do with the need to make your parents happy and dealing with the pressure to conform elsewhere when you've been raised one way and have an identity at home.

And if it's so common elsewhere why so hostile about it? It is a human issue, you are the one making it a ABD issue and dismissing it. If you experience the conflict with your own parents the least you can do is empathize with the younger bunch instead of get annoyed at it.

and ps-

I think ABDs need to lighten up and realize that there is a whole country of 1.5 billion people out there preserving your way of life, and they are not going anywhere.

After reading this thread I am quite shocked frankly how even in an English-speaking country people mangle Indian names, when these are phonetically spelled in English. I live in a country where English is not the native language, and let me tell you Indian names get mangled horribly beyond belief. But guess what? People still learn them. Even though they can't pronounce them completely properly, it's good enough. I generally use the shortened version of my full name, which is also my handle on this site. Even that people struggle with, because in this country the 'EE' equals an English 'A' phonetically. The 'kshi' is even more impronouncable to them, and usually the first time it is turned into something Polish. The treatment of my sister's name is even worse, because the letter 'G' is guttural. I also know a few folks who gave their children simple, Westernised names. There is even a little around here whose name is of uber-Scandinavian origin. But she is 100% desi.

Btw, it's interesting to note that over here the Chinese desis don't keep Western names, but traditional Chinese ones. I knew a Japanese guy as well and he didn't have a Christian name either.

Again you are making it about perservation of culture and I'm telling you that it has NOTHING to do with one feeling the need to PRESERVE their own culture and everything to do with the need to make your parents happy and dealing with the pressure to conform elsewhere when you've been raised one way and have an identity at home.

I think Amitabh, Vaishnavi and Puliogre(#202-204) agree that it is also about preserving desi culture and not only about parental pressure.

And if it's so common elsewhere why so hostile about it? It is a human issue, you are the one making it a ABD issue and dismissing it.

Btw, it's interesting to note that over here the Chinese desis don't keep Western names, but traditional Chinese ones. I knew a Japanese guy as well and he didn't have a Christian name either.

what does 'christian' mean? i think we should use the term western because it gets the point across (e.g., biblical names that syrian christians have are western in that they have a semitic root) without getting caught up in cultural baggage (though this would mean that south asian muslims often have 'western' names, but i can accept that, the etymology of the names are often clearly persian or arabic, though khan is off course originally mongolian).

p.s. i have an aunt named maya, which sounds just like maia, which is greek.

Well, I did mean Western, but I used 'Christian' for variety's sake. :)

Maya is a common name across all cultures, methinks. I know two desis called Maya, and I've seen the name in a lot of different ethnic groups as well(like Russians). Same with Mira.

meena. e.g., meena suvari. a lot of lithuanian names sound brown too.

Meena - You're lucky that even your mispronounced name "Maina" is a legitimate name in India...and beautiful too.
:-)

Looks like an adolescent prick. Probably doesn't even have any bikes to sell, just a troll.

this obviously didn't happen as much for scandinavians, whose last names like "anderson/andersen" are often similar to some english names (especially from northwest england, the danelaw).

Might happen more often than you think. I have a very (difficult for Americans to pronounce) Norwegian last name. Before coming to the US all my Norwegian relatives went by the same surname. However many of my cousins on the Norwegian side of the family took the name "Johnson" because my great-great grandfather's name was Jon. This was a pretty standard practice for Scandinavians. Still, as 1st generation Americans in the 1800s there was a little extra pressure to blend in & take the more Anglo-sounding name "Johnson".

OTOH maybe my parents made the whole story up. Probably trying to make me feel guilty for not eating all my lutefisk at Christmastime.

what does "preserving desi culture" mean anyways? (i'm asking it as a serious question, not a flippant one.) when a caucasian friend of mine shaved her head, people said, oh she's just rebelling against her parents. when an indian friend of mine pierced her eyebrow, the aunties and uncles (and some of their kids too) said, she's assimilating into american culture and rejecting her "indian-ness" (whatever that is supposed to mean). why can't she just be rebelling against her parents like my caucasian friend? i agree with janeofalltrades to a point that a lot of these issues come from things that are universal in a parent-child relationship. but when parents are sometimes your only vehicle to getting information and understanding what it means to be an indian, when i rebel against my parents, sometimes it feels like to me AND them that i am rejecting my indian identity.

anyways, isn't that why we all have sepiamutiny? so we can have a place to turn to when we feel confused about our south asian identity? :)

I'm about halfway through the comments and wanted to go ahead an add mine, and I'm verbose an a fan of smilies. Hope that's okay; I'm a newbie. :D

Re: Names and Pronunciation. Recently I met a man from Bangladesh who told me his name, and I tried to repeat it. It was a loud bus, so he gave up. I can understand; it can be frustrating. However, I'm a fan of unusual (to me) names and other languages, and if given half the chance, I would've taken the time pronounced that name as close as possible to how it was supposed to be pronounced. Not all of us Euro-Americans is lazy with names. ;)

One of my best friends is Vietnamese and he goes by his Vietnamese name and an American/English name. His friends know him by the American name and his coworkers by his legal, Vietnamese, name. Although he thinks in Vietnamese, he grew up here and his identity is as an American, and I think that may be why he prefers the American/English name.

As someone of mostly European ancestry, the whole name-changing phenomenon has negatively affected my family and me, too. I've gotten the impression that in the 19th-and-early-20th centuries, you told the clerk at Ellis Island your name, and hoped he heard all the consonants and vowels. This led to the wide variety of spellings for various European surnames in America, and is also the reason my mother is having so much trouble finding our relatives in Germany.

Although my name-experiences are far different from other posters such as Nirva, Taz, etc., I have had strange reactions to my name. Natalie isn't a very common name in Oklahoma, and I've had people start and do double-takes at hearing it. One guy even repeated it to me, just to make sure he had heard me right. Coupled with my unusual features, and people usually think I'm Jewish when they hear my name (I've also been mistaken for Iranian and Chinese, although since I'm Melungeon, I very well could be ;p).

Re: Borat. Someone said that they thought Borat was hurting Arabs (I'm having trouble finding the specific post). I'm not sure that many Americans would think of him as Arab. I myself always thought of him as Russian/Eastern European (far, far Eastern European), but that could just be the reaction from this area of the country.

I agree with Jai Singh, who would have preferred it if he came from a made-up country. The reason it would have been better, and the reason it would not have worked if he'd been an American singing about black people, Bidi, is because Borat's ambiguous ethnicity and "foreignness" gives him power over the people with whom he's interacting. He can say the things he's saying because he supposedly doesn't know the proper protocol, which gives the people around him the freedom to say what they truly think without worrying about breaking the social taboos of their fellow countrymen. It's similar Cohen's use of Ali G's ethnicity. He is just some kid from West Staines who thinks he's black, but with his name being Ali, his interviewees put up with the stuff Cohen says to them, because they don't want to be seen as racist against this kid who could be any number of ethnicities.

I personally am ecstatic that Bruno/Brueno is getting a movie, as he was always my favorite of the three.

anyways, isn't that why we all have sepiamutiny? so we can have a place to turn to when we feel confused about our south asian identity? :)

From where I'm sitting Vaishnavi you aren't confused at all. You are going to do just fine because your heart is in the right place and you ask the questions that matter and at some point in life everything does make sense and you look back and laugh at how silly some struggles were and I assure you it isn't picking one side but making the best of both and living with it.

Well said JoAT. I hope this sums up the discussion nicely.

Rebelling against your parents does NOT equal rebelling against your Indian identity. Your parents idea of India is probably one frozen in time in the 70s.
I think all you ABDs should visit India and see that Indian youth are not that different from you. We rebel against our parents, we date and intermarry people across caste , language and religious lines, we color our hair, sleep around and listen to Tupac....there... we are all the same...its called growing up, finding yourself.
The young generation is India is as sick of patriarchy and conservatism as you guys are. That's not the part of Indian culture that's going to survive, so we should not be concerned if it dies out.

My $0.02 on Borat:

I don't think Sascha had the balls to be a satirical representation of an arab, iranian or pakistani muslim, which is what he really wanted to do. So he tried to be sly with it, and play a Kazakh.

when a caucasian friend of mine shaved her head, people said, oh she's just rebelling against her parents. when an indian friend of mine pierced her eyebrow, the aunties and uncles (and some of their kids too) said, she's assimilating into american culture and rejecting her "indian-ness" (whatever that is supposed to mean). why can't she just be rebelling against her parents like my caucasian friend?

Why do those two have to be mutually exclusive?

indian_immigrant, i've been to india multiple times, and yes, times are a-changin', but not everywhere and not at the same pace. my parents are from the rural south, and while things have changed since they left in the early 80s, people are not listening to rap music, my cousins don't wear western clothes outside of the house, not one of them dare talk about dating, the girls are still told that going to college is a waste for them. there is a lot of urbanization going on and there is change in my family: twenty years ago, my cousins would have been forced to marry whomever their parents chose (very often a relative in order to keep the wealth in the family), now my aunts and uncles have decided to abandon the idea of marrying within the family and allowing their child to have a say. but love marriages are a big no-no and i have a cousin that we haven't heard from in two years because she eloped and her family cut all contact from her. like i've said earlier, this is just my experience, but to my parents, i am rebelling against parts of indian culture when i chose to not live at home when i went to college. india as a whole has been rapidly evolving and changing to the times, but that change takes a while to trickle down to the small villages and towns.

HMF, i don't think that the two have to be mutually exclusive, but my question is why in my experience, one answer is almost always chosen when there are multiple answers to why someone does anything.

: I don't think Sascha had the balls to be a satirical representation of an arab, iranian or pakistani muslim,
: which is what he really wanted to do. So he tried to be sly with it, and play a Kazakh.

What do you base this one?

My first name is Irish. My last name is French. People mispronounce both in painful ways. Don't feel special....

Indians aren't rebelling against their parents because times are changing. They've always done that. My grandmother, from a snooty south Indian Brahmin family, married my grandfather, a Shudra, in the 1940s. My great-grandfather on the other side had a second wife that was white. I don't think these things were common but they were not that unusual. In the early 1990s, before economic liberalization and Star TV and overwhelming exposure to western media, lots of my high school classmates were sneaking out with boys, and no one said they were rebelling against Indian culture, they were just rebelling. Indians were definitly affected by the Victorian morality of their colonizers; I don't think Indian sexual conservatism is truly an indigenous cultural construct only. In folk tales and literature people were always getting it on with dancing girls in a socially acceptable way.

I'm definitely surprised by how much more conservative the upbringing of my second-gen desi friends was, even some who have one white parent (refer to East is East).

I think all you ABDs should visit India and see that Indian youth are not that different from you. We rebel against our parents, we date and intermarry people across caste , language and religious lines, we color our hair, sleep around and listen to Tupac....there... we are all the same...its called growing up, finding yourself. The young generation is India is as sick of patriarchy and conservatism as you guys are. That's not the part of Indian culture that's going to survive, so we should not be concerned if it dies out.

What kind of a society/place are you trying to create? Another extension of the western world? And what elements of Indian culture do you think will survive?

to me, the discussion comes back to the question of where does parenting end and indian culture begin? my parents and i can't definitively answer that question, and that is why the rebelling that almost any teenager can relate to gets morphed into a preservation of culture issue in my house. when all i know about india and my family's life and heritage is from my parent's teachings, where is the line between their cultural teachings and parenting style? is there one?

Vaishnavi,
For each one of your stories of backward India, I can give a story about forward India. I can also garnish it with some stories about some underage white girl bein married off as third wife to some old man in Utah. But then it would be taking one case and generalizing it. Lets not do it. Its okay if your family comes from a compartiviely backward area which hasnt caught up with times, but I am sure they will, just give them a few years.
My pet peeve is people generalizing a population of more then 1 billion by looking at a select few.

I think I represent the educated and somewhat privileged ( who can not spell by the way, I am sure I spelled "privileged" and many other words wrong :D ) strata of indian society. I find myself more educated, more aware of my sorroundings and dare I say smarter then most of the people I come across in daily life other then work. Imagine my frustration when sometimes I get patroinized by people who I know are way inferior then me (not being snobby, just matter of fact!).

Most of the 1st gen people who come here (specially for further education) are above average people (doesnt matter which group you put them in)
who already have accomplished something by securing admission/scholarships early in their lives agains considerable odds. These people come here mentally prepared to tackle some racism from people of other color. But when we encounter the same behaviour from our own people (yes we consider you over own, can't change the skin color), its quite hurtful and brings resentment.

I know the ABD side of story all too also and sympathize with them too, but I guess they will have to get over the self hate someday.I have a lot of friends cousins who are ABD's and now since they consider me as one of their "own", I see how they spend their time. The reference to and mimicking of indian accents, making fun of peoples clothes or hair, saying shit about their own parents etc consumes a major part of their life.
It just scares me to think what kind of self image they are living with.

Long Rant! Time for lunch :)

Rebelling against your parents does NOT equal rebelling against your Indian identity. Your parents idea of India is probably one frozen in time in the 70s.

The larger point is it doesn't matter that they are following something frozen in time, it is still an Indian indentity. It doesn't matter that you don't recognize it as one but to the person who subscribes to it everyday and the person who has to live in it's shadow everyday it IS an Indian identity.

We rebel against our parents, we date and intermarry people across caste , language and religious lines, we color our hair, sleep around and listen to Tupac....there... we are all the same...its called growing up, finding yourself.

I'm sure this is true because everyone talks about it but when I go to India ... Mumbai / Pune I don't really see this. Yeah I see kids who are a little more modern than those when I left India 20 years ago but not where they have abondoned the values they were raised with. My family isn't that overly conservative but a fairly traditional Maharashtrian family and despite the girls being educated everyone followed the path the parents choose for them including what they studied, where they worked and who they married as well as having kids within 2 years of marriage. To a larger extent the young desis I come across in India may be modern in terms of technology and thought but in practice are just as conservative as my parents.

Its okay if your family comes from a compartiviely backward area which hasnt caught up with times, but I am sure they will, just give them a few years. My pet peeve is people generalizing a population of more then 1 billion by looking at a select few.

I think I represent the educated and somewhat privileged ( who can not spell by the way, I am sure I spelled "privileged" and many other words wrong :D ) strata of indian society

What arrogant statements! Do you realise YOU represent the 'select few', and that MOST OF INDIA would probably fit your notion of 'backward'?

I think I represent the educated and somewhat privileged strata of indian society.

And you realize by categorizing yourself you have put yourself in a minority? The rest of average India does not fall in the educated nor privileged sphere.

For each one of your stories of backward India, I can give a story about forward India. I can also garnish it with some stories about some underage white girl bein married off as third wife to some old man in Utah.

Are you implying that conservatism in India is as rare as a Polygamist colony in Utah?

Most of the 1st gen people who come here (specially for further education) are above average people (doesnt matter which group you put them in) who already have accomplished something by securing admission/scholarships early in their lives agains considerable odds

Education does not equate progression and modernism. Lets not get all wrapped up in the delusion.

I know the ABD side of story all too also and sympathize with them too, but I guess they will have to get over the self hate someday.I have a lot of friends cousins who are ABD's and now since they consider me as one of their "own", I see how they spend their time. The reference to and mimicking of indian accents, making fun of peoples clothes or hair, saying shit about their own parents etc consumes a major part of their life. It just scares me to think what kind of self image they are living with.

Ive always been nice to the immigrant crowd. i tend to relate to them more than most americans for some reason (even though I am an american from america). Sounds like youve had it rough w/ your cousins...

I know the ABD side of story all too also and sympathize with them too, but I guess they will have to get over the self hate someday.

it is not self-hate! it's more of self-discovery-- figuring out who you are and where you fit in this oh so big world. it's something that everybody goes through, but as a 2nd gen of any ethnicity living in the states, it takes time to figure out the balance in your life, maybe a little longer than it does for others.

i hate when people generalize about india as well, which is why i brought my life example (which i said was a story specific to me). all of india is not rural farmland, neither is it all like mumbai either. i am proud of where my family has come from, it's not backwards, but conservative in my opinion, and having visited multiple times over the period of 20 years, things don't change as quickly as you may think they do. my family's experience shapes my view of indian culture so that it may be different from someone that is wealthier/more progressive back home. i have nothing against 1st gens, and i don't spend my time ridiculing their accent or mannerisms. as for complaining about parents and nitpicking people's outfits, not everyone does that, and when i did participate in such gossip fests, it has nothing to do with being a 2nd gen and much more about being a gossipy high school girl :)

What kind of a society/place are you trying to create? Another extension of the western world? And what elements of Indian culture do you think will survive?

Patriarchy and conservatism are not particularly Indian values. They are just as prevalent in America. In fact the Hindu Right and the Christian Right share ideology to a surprising degree. So if you're arguing that we should maintain the values of patriarchy and conservatism because they're Indian, they're not.

Amitabh,
I know it comes as pretty arrogant and my apologies for that. I was just trying to make a point and by getting you to reac the way you did, I think I was able to prove my point when you clubbed me in the "select few" category and clubbed rest as "MOST OF INDIA". You caught my mistake but commited the same, with just doing the role reversal.

My point exactly is that there is no one MOST if India. There are so many diffrent types of people of varying education, varying classes and varying
monetary levels.
The country is full of all kinds of people some of whom are arrogant pigs like me (without appearant reason also it seems ) :), some are quite modern, some are quite traditional, some are modern in some aspects and traditional in some aspects, some are brilliant artists, managers, farmers ,housemakes , item girls etc etc. You name it we got it. Yes we have a sizable chunk of people who still are not where they deserve to be. But the amount of other progressive people is also very overwhelming and thats why its kind of a problem when it all gets packed into image of one stereotypical desi image.

Again my aplogies for some imprudent choices of words.

Waiting to be flamed :D