holy macaca! this one is headed for late night... and probably legal challenges!

VA SEN [35.28% IN] ALLEN 392,816 49.39% WEBB 392,854 49.39%

I demand Abhi Russert Vlogging. Only that will settle my roiling stomach. Get ready to pass the hat for the legal fund. . .

at 52%
Candidates Party Vote Totals Percentage
G F Allen Republican 583,153 50.85%
J H Webb Jr Democratic 549,673 47.93%
G G Parker Independent Green 12,825 1.12%
Write Ins 1,141 0.10%

I can't believe it's nearly 9:00 pm and they haven't been able to call a single important race so far, everything seems like such a dead heat.

I think I am going to be more upset at the loss of Webb than I was at the loss of Dean. I cant watch anymore the trend is not looking good.

Seems like Macaca Allen will make it.

Allen
(Incumbent)
674,399 50% 60% of precincts reporting
Webb
663,268 49%

Looks like Mr. Macaca Maker is gonna make it. This is gonna be heartbreaking to many. I am not too surprised though.

It looks like Kent Conrad's going to be sticking around in Bunker-ville.

On radio Webb campaign was still happy, as results from N. VA are not out yet. They expect N. VA to go Webb's way.

Too early to call Virginia. There are such huge differences between region of the state that everything depends on which precincts have come in and which not. In fact it's arguable that small rural precincts come in earlier, and larger urban ones later, which would actually look good for Webb. Not saying it's necessarily that way, but it's grounds for caution.

I can't bear to watch. I feel like any time I care intensely about the outcome of an election, it always turns out exactly the opposite from what I wanted.

On a slightly related note, has anyone seen "Hacking Democracy?"

Watch it, if you get a chance. It's on HBO frequently. Good stuff.

rick santorum is on his way out though...

Go Northern Virgina!

rick santorum is on his way out though...

yes he is!!!

good data on who is voting for and against mr.macaca

d00d, he said santorum....

Santaram? :) Who?

I don't think I can go to sleep tonite until I know at least the local elections and some other important ones. I think it will be interesting to see if the Senate shifts. I found this helpful. Anyone else have any other site that's better?

lieberman and menendez win....thanks heavens NJ stays blue
can't stand leiberman & was hoping for lamont, but a socialist sanders from vermont and conservative lieberman from conn. probably balance the dem caucus.

There are socialist politicians here? That's unpossible.

republicans take guam! whoo hoo!

Crossing my fingers for Webb. I've been following CNN also.

Webb 785,445 50%
Allen(Incumbent) 785,435 49%

JOAT -WNYC has special coverage on FM 93.9 or at http://www.wnyc.org/

http://sbe.virginiainteractive.org/index.htm

va is back to even...

JOAT -WNYC has special coverage on FM 93.9 or at http://www.wnyc.org/

Yeah I'm having a hard time listening so I'm watching TV and watching it on the web. When TV goes to commercial I turn up WNYC :-) I love this map though. Thanx.

republicans take guam! whoo hoo!

:-D

JOAT -

As those who waltz along the Primrose Path already know, I recommend Pollster.com. My favorite statistic of the night from their site:

Those who decided in the last three days (who were 10% of all voters) went for McCaskill 57% to 38%. Earlier decideds split nearly evenly with 50% for McCaskill, 49% for Talent.

thanks for that site, razib. any virginia connoisseurs who can deconstruct the results by county?

It looks like Kent Conrad's going to be sticking around in Bunker-ville.

Pulling out a real nail-biter -- so close that nobody even bothered to poll it. Though I'm sure that Abhi's GOTV operation in the field was crucial.

fairfax reported over 90%. i'm bettin' against webb.

macaca's still in...

by the way, i voted in south carolina. as i was leaving, one of the poll workers stopped me and said, "you have the prettiest accent." i shot her the look of death, and she went on, "it's just the prettiest indian accent ever! do you watch ER? you look just like that girl on ER."

i told her that i grew up in south carolina, in fact, in the very neighborhood she was working the polls for. and my accent is definitely generic american/queen's english/indian depending on whom i am speaking with.

after i left, i reported her to the election commission.

one of the poll workers stopped me and said, "you have the prettiest accent." i shot her the look of death, and she went on, "it's just the prettiest indian accent ever! do you watch ER? you look just like that girl on ER."

after i left, i reported her to the election commission.

Awwww why? Was it really that offensive? Im sorry Im not being scarcastic. I'm running for the Board of Directors in my complex and 99% of the people who did show up for elections yesterday were Sr Citizens that were very warm and kind towards me but definitely along the lines of "Oh you are so pretty and Indian and bla bla bla". They've all been very kind without malice, just perhaps ignorant and I don't necessarily hold it against them. Too bad we didn't have Quorum yesterday to declare me the winner which I'm projecting I will be.

She might have felt offended because of the 'accent' remark. If someone says you look lovely, thats something else.

Fairfax itself may not be enough of an indicator. Here's the county-by-county map from the Bush-Kerry race. Loudon and Prince William together have about half the population of Fairfax, and along with Norfolk and Petersburg there are a lot of strongly Democratic precincts that haven't reported yet.

MSNBC is reporting that both sides are predicting that we are in recount-lan

I meant, "recount-land" in #37. Sorry about that.

Oy, it's going to be a late night for me. Going on 10 pm and I'm still at work...but that's OK. I love elections! The drama! The reporting! So glad the mutineers are here, as well. I demand A. Russert now! We've been flipping through the stations here at work and I've yet to see him...

one-third of richmond still unreported. 2/3rd gave dems a net of 16K. One third should give 8K more :). Still not giving up. Green got 21K :(

by the way, i voted in south carolina. as i was leaving, one of the poll workers stopped me and said, "you have the prettiest accent." i shot her the look of death, and she went on, "it's just the prettiest indian accent ever! do you watch ER? you look just like that girl on ER."

i told her that i grew up in south carolina, in fact, in the very neighborhood she was working the polls for. and my accent is definitely generic american/queen's english/indian depending on whom i am speaking with.

Its really hard to say the right thing all the time(or to even know what will/will not offend someone). I don't think she meant any malice, which is what counts.

i'm ready to project legal challenges in virginia no matter how it's called tonight.

Allen might pull through as this is where they stand with 82% reporting.

Allen: 929,128
Webb: 901,272

It's damn close. That site Razib linked to is showing 966,000 for Allen and 964,000 for Webb at this point.

Long night, indeed! I think I'm going to make some popcorn.

now 973K allen, 970K webb. yikes!

G F Allen Republican 973,322 49.48%
J H Webb Jr Democratic 969,980 49.31%

87.27% reported.

what's the automatic recount trigger? 0.5?

Long night, indeed! I think I'm going to make some popcorn.

and several bottles of wine...

Looks like Webb will go down in defeat. Sad day for Desis.

What were those 21000 people in Va who voted for the Green Party candidate thinking? OMG. Why do they keep shooting themselves in the foot? This is soooo frustrating to come this close and lose. Again :(

Friggin Green Party. I thought we won the cold war, why are these communists still around?

1) the "green" candidate in virginia is actually "independent green" which is not the same as green party. she's more right-wing.

2) CNN has allyson schwartz 69%, raj peter bhakta 31% in pennsylvania. cue the "you're fired" jokes.

If the VA election results are closer than 1 percent, the losing candidate can get a recount. Both sides are predicting that regardless of who is ahead at the end of the night beginning of the morning, there will be a recount. And with the voting machine problems, Rovian dirty tricks, and other problems -- all bets are off.

Don't concede defeat for Webb too soon. And get ready for overtime.

the race now boils down to fairfax and arlignton counties (dem) against rest of the counties (rep) in va

Seems to be more votes in the dem counties but it depends on how heavily they go for webb.

What were those 21000 people in Va who voted for the Green Party candidate thinking?

Yeah. Seriously.

1) the "green" candidate in virginia is actually "independent green" which is not the same as green party. she's more right-wing.

all the better to take votes from the demz :)

yglesias is pissed too.

circus in jungle, it's a bit more complicated than that. go back and read my earlier posts on this and especially look at the maps. norfolk, petersburg, and even loudon and prince william are strongholds for webb in a race this close, and they all seem to still be in play to some extent.

and don't forget the inevitable recount and litigation.

Republicans should take it up with Osama Bin laden for not helping this time.. If he had released a video a couple of days before things would be different.. :-)

Pied Piper is right-- Loudoun & Prince William aren't Republican strongholds anymore. Everyone I know in Loudoun is voting for Webb (this may be because I am a unionized public school teacher). I'm not giving up hope yet.

keep hope alive!

In non-brown news: I'm happy to see Hevesi keep his job as NY State Comptroller. His apology ad totally tugged my heart strings.

the "green" candidate in virginia is actually "independent green" which is not the same as green party. she's more right-wing.

Oops. Sorry Greens:)

Don't concede defeat for Webb too soon. And get ready for overtime.

in which case, I have full faith and confidence in our fox news like "fair and balanced" Supreme Court to favor democracy over partisanship like they did in Bush v. Gore!

I'm happy to see Hevesi keep his job as NY State Comptroller.

Good news. Now when they inevitably (and maybe appropriately) dump him, we'll get a successor appointed by Spitzer, rather than bow-tie guy (not Raj Bhakta, the other one).

Hey now. Hevesi made a stupid mistake. And he's sorry. He's done a decent job otherwise, right?

But I'd support anything Spitzer does. Totally blinded by love.

Damn! The Democrats took Nicaragua.

Oh please. please please please please pleeeeeeease. Go Arlington! Fairfax is a bit more red, but Arlington is huge and largely Dem.

Pleeeeeeeeease...

the "green" candidate in virginia is actually "independent green" which is not the same as green party. she's more right-wing.

fascinating. is that like the larouche version of the green party?

i think it was the tone it was delivered in that peeved me off. i'm used to the southern lady way of speaking, but i just thought it was inappropriate to do that at the polls, where everyone is supposed to be equal and we can all sit back and rejoice in our mutual identity as americans.

i've been reloading the virginia results site like a crack fiend:

http://sbe.vipnet.org/nov2006/l_02.htm

Oh please. please please please please pleeeeeeease. Go Arlington! Fairfax is a bit more red, but Arlington is huge and largely Dem.

Pleeeeeeeeease...

We may still have hope. Margin is down to 11,000 votes with 94% reporting.....

I can't STAND Lieberman. What a shady, impish, loser.

Sheldon Whitehouse-D elected in Rhode Island

Chafee is out. 35% of voters said Chafee agreed too much with Bush. Hilarious.

Looks like Webb stomped in Arlington, and is comfortably ahead in Fairfax. 139 precincts to go. Paul, I know how you feel. We'll start a 12-step program after the dust settles. Right now, someone pass the goddamn pipe.

The gap is down to 8000 with 95.5% reporting.

Nail biter!!!

I'm happy to see Hevesi keep his job as NY State Comptroller. His apology ad totally tugged my heart strings.

I know the Hevesi family personally and am good friends with his son Andy and know that his mom has been really ill so every time I saw that ad it made me feel bad. He's a really good man and has served this area of Forest Hills for a long time before he went on to be Comptroller and his record is solid but this was a stupid and very bad mistake. Unfortunately as Pied Piper said he will be removed by Spitzer who will appoint someone else which is a shame. And like you I absolutely adore Spitzer and believe in him. He's got a solid record.

Dude. What's the hangup with Prince William County? Only 25 out of 67 precincts reporting in?!

Margin is down to 11,000 votes with 94% reporting.....

And still a lot of Loudon, Prince William, and Petersburg to be counted.

My favorite numbers of the evening remain the Missouri exit polls numbers. If they're correct, and the rest of the numbers hold, the break in last minute undecided voters for McCaskill is a huge deal.

Damn! The Democrats took Nicaragua.

Damn! The Republicans lost Iran. (And FWIW, whatever else you might say about Daniel Ortega, I'm pretty sure he didn't get elected by running racist ads, conducting robo-dialed push polls, and engaging in voter intimidation. Great people, those friends of yours.)

As for Hevesi, JOAT and espressa, what I have heard so far doesn't sound great, though I do reserve judgment to some extent on the merits -- the situation with his wife is quite poignant. Still, it does seem that most people have drawn their conclusions, for better or worse, and that being the case, better for Spitzer to pick someone than for us to be stuck with bow tie guy, who just irritates.

Surprisingly, it looks like the Republicans are going to win the Missouri Senate race. Seems like it doesn't matter for immediate purposes if Webb can pull this one out or not :(

Does all precincts have almost same number of votes? What is the criteria decide the precinct boundaries

Democratic "magic number" for the House is down to 2.

(And FWIW, whatever else you might say about Daniel Ortega, I'm pretty sure he didn't get elected by running racist ads, conducting robo-dialed push polls, and engaging in voter intimidation. Great people, those friends of yours.)

Well said :) He was also elected by the PEOPLE of his country and not it's Supreme Court!

All:

Ohio Secretary of State's website reports Jay Goyal easily ahead of his opponent which will make him the youngest and fifth elected Indian-American state house member.

Jay

"Dear John, it's over" in the House of Representatives. Bring on the return of oversight, accountability, and separation of powers.

CNN now projects Democrats take the House.

Circus:

I'm not totally clear on how precinct boundaries are drawn, but supposedly precincts are somewhat equal. They're not supposed to be larger than 2000 voters, but there's some margin of error in all of them. Can anyone elucidate?

Bring on the return of oversight, accountability, and separation of powers.

Constitutional Law geeks around the world rejoice :)

Missouri Senate is still way too close to call -- those returns breakdown with the Republicans strong in rural counties, Democrats dominant in the big cities. Only half the returns are in, almost certainly not in Kansas City and St. Louis. That one is going to be a nail-biter as well.

As I understand it, precinct sizes can vary widely -- "precinct" just refers to the actual polling location, so (for example) if there are a lot of voting machines set up in one precinct, it could have many more votes than another. (And though this is probably more obvious, note that when returns are reported in terms of "counties," counties definitely do vary widely in population.)

I'm not totally clear on how precinct boundaries are drawn, but supposedly precincts are somewhat equal. They're not supposed to be larger than 2000 voters, but there's some margin of error in all of them. Can anyone elucidate?

Precincts are generally geographic and while there may be an effort to make them "even" in terms of the pop it can be farthest from the truth. Also within a precinct (for NYC) you have districts. My current Precinct has 12 districts within it with individual booths, some of them have multiple booths and they all pertain to geographic locations of the actual buildings or housing blocks. There is a map science to it though not necessary a math science.

50-50 senate is very possible. if dems take montana and missouri, and reps keep tennessee and virginia, DICK CHENEY becomes the tie-breaker for the next two years.

Here's some information about precinct size in North Carolina:

In North Carolina, the number of registered voters assigned to a particular voting place varies greatly from precinct to precinct. In terms of registered voters, precinct sizes range from a low of 21 voters to as many as 6,827. This variation in size is most often attributed to six factors - Population growth and density, - Availability of adequate sites to handle voters on election day, - Availability of voting equipment - Type of voting machine utilized by a county - Guidance as to the proper size of precincts - Reluctance on the part of elections officials and voters to change the location of an established voting place.

So here's a question: what's the status of absentee and provisional ballots in Virginia? Do absentees get counted first or last?

if dems take montana and missouri, and reps keep tennessee and virginia, DICK CHENEY becomes the tie-breaker for the next two years.

(He who slew me is my judge,
O, what justice can i expect.)

Piedpiper and Circus:

yeah, the numbers to watch are the raw voter counts.

I just realized, I've literally bitten my nails down to the quick. Ow.

Extrapolating loosely from the VA numbers, Prince William could hand over an additional thousand votes for Webb, another thousand from Fairfax County, and a few hundred from Newport News, etc. Most of the areas we're waiting on in VA lean left and are showing Webb in the lead.

just curious, is there a place where you can bet on elections? anyone know?

May be dems shouldn't make too much of wins in RI, PA which lean blue anyways. Tonight is not proving to be a wave against iraqi war except that slightly more people are pissed off with bush but not in significant numbers. Unless dems pick up some southern states it can be easily argued that majority of the population didn't change their views on foreign policy, immigration. At least not significant enough to vote blue.

To force Bush to change the policy, tonight has to be a thumping win for blues which it doesn't seem to be. It is disappointing that even in this sorry state of affairs the reds are holding their own. What could be the reason for this?

mera qatil hi mera munsif hai, kya mere haq me faisla dega.

wow sakshi. I thought exactly the same song/sher :)

50-50 senate is very possible. if dems take montana and missouri, and reps keep tennessee and virginia, DICK CHENEY becomes the tie-breaker for the next two years.

Aaaargh!

Dammit, I will not begin pounding my head against something hard and unyielding until this happens. :-P

Sherrod Brown is on C-Span right now, and he's preaching stem-cell research, making OH the "silicon valley of alternative energy," affordable health care for all Americans, making education affordable, and ending the war in Iraq. Ok, fine, it's just a victory speech, but it feels good to hear it. I'm still waiting for a Dem to take the podium somewhere and deliver a screed on how the Dems now have a hold on fiscal conservatism, too. THAT would make me high-five random strangers on the street.

No matter what happens in the Senate, I'm going to have to go to sleep with a smile on my face.

The reason for Reps holding is the economy. Employment is at an all high, and price of gas is below the 'hurt' threshold.

It is disappointing that even in this sorry state of affairs the reds are holding their own. What could be the reason for this?

my opinion? (and it's just my unscholarly thoughts, ;-)) the republicans have a platform that they're promoting-- judeo-christian philosophies (not necessarily religious practices) and values, their stance on defending america against terrorism, the war on iraq, etc. the democrats just seem to react to this-- questioning our place in iraq, not pushing for referendums banning gay marriage/abortion, etc. as a person that identifies as a democrat (and voted blue today), they just don't seem to stand for anything as a party to me except be a reaction to the republican's action (however misguided i feel that their action is). anyways, that's just my opinion :)

so the reason Tennessee and Virginia may go to the republican column is because of the economy? yes maccaca

It is disappointing that even in this sorry state of affairs the reds are holding their own. What could be the reason for this?

The answer: gerrymandering by the Tom Delay led Republican Congress! They basically redrew districts to split African American voters and other traditionally Dem strongholds. Thus, they insulated themselves by building levees against a political wave. If only they had shown similar foresight in New Orleans...

Circus:

To force Bush to change the policy, tonight has to be a thumping win for blues which it doesn't seem to be. It is disappointing that even in this sorry state of affairs the reds are holding their own. What could be the reason for this?

Actually, even a solid win for the Dems would not necessarily do much to force Bush to change policy. Or, it wouldn't do any more to force Bush to change policy. Bush can veto any bills that Dems pass to curtail war spending, from a "blunt force" standpoint. I agree, it's disappointing that the right still holds so much sway. I attribute that to Republicans' ability to organize, their very consistent messaging, their lightning attacks on any opposition candidates who show a sign of weakness, and on some generally smart strategy.

I don't attribute it to some kind of referendum whereby the majority of Americans are held sway by America's clever conservative foreign, economic, or social policies. That's a laugh.

circus - a couple of things to keep in mind. first, only one-third of the senate seats are up in any given election year, so the picture is necessarily partial. i think the republians will have more vulnerable senate seats in 2008 than they do this year.

second, the turnover in the house is remarkable -- it's not "slightly" at all. especially given how gerrymandered house districts are. at least as of a couple of weeks ago, 351 out of 435 congressional seats were either uncontested altogether or not highly contested. Of the 60 contested seats that had been polled as of then, 30 leaned strongly towards one party's candidate or the other. That leaves 30 seats, plus or minus, in which there really have been serious races.

(of course, one can't beat the daily show for midterm elections 101. even in a bad year, power of incumbency is pretty strong.)

third, bush is the most stubborn person on the planet. none of this is about getting him to change his policy, it's about limiting the damage he can do and ensuring some accountability and oversight.

It is disappointing that even in this sorry state of affairs the reds are holding their own.

No matter what happens in the Senate

they just don't seem to stand for anything as a party to me except be a reaction to the republican's action (however misguided i feel that their action is). anyways, that's just my opinion :)

I suspect that reason for this is that the dems suspect that the majority of the population won't like what dems stand for. My point is that majority of Americans seem to vote red. Does that mean American's have become more conservative over the last decade or two? That could only be worse for us desis (or south asians if you prefer).

as a friendly neighbor looking in, i am surprised the decisions on the house seem to be passing under the radar. comment?

The legislative power of the House is limited, in that they can commission reports and hold hearings, but they can't pass bills that the Senate won't sign?

i guess i should add, the republicans promote their platform very well too. the people i know that have voted republican over the past six years have done so because of the importance of their religious beliefs, their support of the war in iraq and their fear of terrorism. it's a small sample and voting is a very personal choice, but the republican's foreign and social policies are why any of my friends vote republican.

STATUS CANDIDATE VOTE VOTE %
KEY RACE

Allen
(Incumbent)
1,133,550 50%

Webb
1,127,537 49%

98% in.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2006//pages/results/states/VA/S/01/index.html

I suspect that reason for this is that the dems suspect that the majority of the population won't like what dems stand for.

I think it's more like there is no one solid point of agreement for Dems on things like gay rights, stem cell research, etc. Conversely, it's far easier for Republicans to come together against those kinds of things.

My point is that majority of Americans seem to vote red. Does that mean American's have become more conservative over the last decade or two? That could only be worse for us desis (or south asians if you prefer).

Oh, you picked up on that, huh? What gave it away? :-D

Of course America has swung right in the last several years. And now the pendulum is swinging back. Hopefully (as I've said in these parts before), it'll swing so far left that I'll get a chance to experience the 60's again. Though I'll probably be like 40 years old when it happens.

Per Virginia state site, Allen lead now down to just over 3,000 votes...

Winning the House is a much bigger deal than winning the Senate. The ability to introduce and get votes on bills is what sets the political agenda in Washington, and oversight authority to have hearings and get evidence is a huge deal. Also, the minority party in the Senate has more power than in the House, Senate Republicans as a whole are more moderate, and it takes 60 votes to get anything done in the Senate anyway so crossing 50 votes is important but not quite as consequential as it might seem.

CNN is putting Webb ahead!

Webb ahead of Allen by 3,000 votes, per CNN.

woohoo! webb w/ slight lead

lets go webb! lets go webb!

cnn now reporting webb 50%, allen 49%, with 99% reporting... this will obviously come down to the recount.

carville is giddy... says his sources say missouri looking very good for the dems... meaning it would come down to montana in terms of dem control of senate...

Does that mean American's have become more conservative over the last decade or two?

well if you look at history, things go in cycles. the roaring twenties were followed by the great depression, the post-war fifties were followed by the free wheeling sixties. the nineties was an economically booming time, and now in the new millennium (2000s? is that what we call them?), we are in a time consumed by terrorism. so i don't know if america has become more conservative, but the hot button issues in our society right have a religious slant to them, which brings out the "traditional" side in people.

oh, don't lose heart yet! From the VA site:

Totals
1,114,969 49.47% G F Allen
1,111,806 49.33% J H Webb Jr
24,907 1.11% G G Parker
2,225 0.10% (IG) Write Ins

2,253,907 Votes Cast
2386 of 2443 Precincts Reporting

as a friendly neighbor looking in, i am surprised the decisions on the house seem to be passing under the radar. comment?

I agree hairy_d. I think it's very important/exciting that the great John Conyers and Henry Waxman will be able to control their respective committees and finally be able to perform the check/balance functions that they're supposed to.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2006//pages/results/states/VA/index.html

Webb is slightly leading with 99%reported. I definitely think this one's headed for a recount.

Winning the House is a much bigger deal than winning the Senate.

Not true! The Senate gets to confirm judges and other appointees, which is a huge deal in my book, especially if Bush gets another vacancy on the Supreme Court to fill.

Another win for the Abhi machine, this time across state lines -- the abortion ban ballot initiative in South Dakota goes down in flames.

Does that mean American's have become more conservative over the last decade or two?

Since Nixon and it hasn't cooled since.

http://sbe.vipnet.org/nov2006/l_02.htm

hey, might be a stupid question, but why is there a discrepancy between the virgina state election board's numbers and what CNN's numbers are reporting?

Where does CNN get its numbers from?

my understanding is that while it's technically true that only the house gets to introduce bills, in practice the senate will often author their own version of a bill, or even initiate new legislation which is then co-sponsored by someone in the house... it comes down to a formality.

Another win for the Abhi machine, this time across state lines -- the abortion ban ballot initiative in South Dakota goes down in flames.

:-)

ahhh.

The VA race is too close to call. The VA site has Webb trailing by less than 2000 votes (1757 as of this moment, with a few precincts still waiting to report in). This is definitely going to the recount.

In TN, Shelby County (my home ground) is still counting votes. That one is close, too, though not nearly like VA. Ford is trailing Corker, but not a single Shelby County vote is in yet. Not sure what's up with that, either?

According to CNN, Talent's lead in Missouri is down from 8% to 4%. Tester is well ahead in Montana.

hell yeah baby! GO DEMS!!! go to hell maccaca!

Down with Conrad Burns!

Montana
November 08, 2006 - 12:02AM ET (i) = incumbent
U.S. Senate - 163 of 867 Precincts Reporting
Name Party Votes Pct
Tester, Jon Dem 55,807 55.79
Burns, Conrad (i) GOP 42,071 42.06

from kos.

Allen (R) 1,138,676
Webb (D) 1,141,052

Webb pulls ahead with 2370 votes ahead.
But wont be clear for 2 weeks atleast.

Salil,
There is definately hope. !!!!!!

The Senate gets to confirm judges and other appointees, which is a huge deal in my book, especially if Bush gets another vacancy on the Supreme Court to fill.

That's a fair point -- I'd be the last person to soft pedal this issue. But to some extent, progressives have placed too much stock in the courts without having durable political majorities to sustain the litigation victories. Need to be thinking a bit more long term about all of this -- maybe a 15-20 year time horizon -- and I'm happy to have a foothold in the House to lay the groundwork for races in 2008, 2010, and beyond. Don't get me wrong -- I'd be happy with the Senate too, but that could easily flip in 2008 given the seats that are up that year (a big majority of them are GOP incumbents, as I recall).

while it's technically true that only the house gets to introduce bills, in practice the senate will often author their own version of a bill, or even initiate new legislation which is then co-sponsored by someone in the house... it comes down to a formality.

What you are describing is true about appropriations bills, but my point is that since each house sets its own legislative calendar on all bills, control of the House means that the Democrats can influence what gets voted on and what gets into the media news cycle. Not a formality at all, but a very big deal.

go webb, go!!!

Essentially if the difference is less than 11,000 votes between Webb & NotMacaca the state pays for the recount and it could take upto 10 days. There will be a recount regardless at this rate. If somehow the difference pulls ahead of 11K and the loser contests he has to pay for the recount. Either ways this is going to be one big mess going into tomorrow unless Allen concedes.

he won't concede, nor should he. the system will work. and we'll win, either we'll know about more problems with the system, or we'll see that it is working right. let the recount begin.

Best I can tell from this site, everything is in except for one precinct from Arlington, one from Fairfax, three from Loudon, three from Prince William, and one from Virginia Beach. And maybe one or two from counties with very few people in them.

Things are looking very good indeed -- at least for regulation time.

But to some extent, progressives have placed too much stock in the courts without having durable political majorities to sustain the litigation victories.

trudat. take away roe v wade and put abortion in play again, and i dare say the dems would have been the party in power. law of unintended consequences.

the system will work. and we'll win

damn cockcy macacas

I agree with Razib #134. VA state law provides a recount if the difference is less than 1 percent. I think that's a good thing.

Are there still any Maryland peeps who are worried that Cardin has never actually projected to have been in the lead but has been called as the winner?

What you are describing is true about appropriations bills, but my point is that since each house sets its own legislative calendar on all bills, control of the House means that the Democrats can influence what gets voted on and what gets into the media news cycle. Not a formality at all, but a very big deal.

Yup. :-)

The House wins are not trivial at all...in fact, I'd bump up that point on oversight committees and conducting hearings: the Bush administration must tread very carefully from now on, and cover its tracks from the last four years even more than they have already.

Oh, and hey. Nancy Pelosi is now Speaker of the House. Dubya's gotta be shitting himself.

I see Webb winning. The only counties still reporting, appear to be leaning for Webb.

f you maccaca!

Also, local news is saying that the Webb/Mac..I mean Allen race is not going to be called tonight.

And I think an *automatic* recount if it's less than 0.5 percent. But maybe Allen should concede. Maybe the Webb people should make him -- after all, we know what the Allen people would do.

(m)akaka won.

OK can't do it....can't stay up anymore. My father has strict instructions to call me and wake me if someone concedes and if the Senate rolls or gets even!! I'm out.

Are they counting votes with an abacus in Loudoun? (Hey, it's possible. We're still working on indoor plumbing here).

Oh, and hey. Nancy Pelosi is now Speaker of the House. Dubya's gotta be shitting himself.

I really don't have much heartburn over democratic control over the house, primarily because the republican party pretty much behaved as spending cash machines (for someone fiscally conservative, its really a crapshoot) and that having a check in balance is good for the country all in all (like Clinton with the Republican congress), but can't the dems ppick anyone other than Nancy Pelosi (i know, I know, its not happening). I can't stand that lady (among many politicians from the right and left).

I highly recommend those living on the left coast watch the broadcast of Charlie Rose on PBS. There is a lot of great commentary coming from people of varied political stripes. For those who are left leaning, some conservatives present some cogent insight on how it's not going to be all that easy for the Dems.

Are some of those Virginia "precincts" absentee votes? What is the story with absentee and HAVA provisional ballots in Virginia?

the guy who got called macaca must be partying it up right now

not sure about absentee ballots, but carville just mentioned on cnn that virginia would start counting provisional ballots tomorrow

Okay, none of the TV stations show Cardin ahead in the vote count, but CNN.com does.

Even if Webb wins VA, I think the story of this election is that it's not a mandate for the Dems. It's a vote against Dubya. Thanks to all who voted, regardless of political stripe, extra special thanks to the SM folks for keeping us informed. Extra Extra special thanks to peeps like Taz, who make it a personal goal to get all us brown people involved in the political process.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15613050/
First Muslim elected to Congress.

Allen is on C-Span right now, thanking God and his (Jewish!) mother for living in a land where rights are enshrined in the Constitution. Allow me to channel Hunter S. Thompson for a moment: I am sending him a fax that has the Patriot Act printed on one side, the Constitution on the other, and "Macacas Rule!" scrawled on the first one in big thick black Sharpie.

fox news just reported that the allen campaign says they are really up by 5k votes. something about the votes not being transposed correctly.

MSNBC says as many as 33,000 uncounted votes remain in Fairfax. 33,000.

mccaskill just pulled slightly ahead in missouri, per CNN.

Local news in DC has given up on the VA Senate election. They're breaking to normal broadcast. It's going to be a while.

I give up. I did my part. Good night y'all. I just want to say that I felt very patriotic today. Regardless of the outcome, I did, and said, all I could and I wasn't thrown in jail. There's hope for this country.

MSNBC says as many as 33,000 uncounted votes remain in Fairfax. 33,000.

PP, that can't be right. The state site says 99.56% in. Can you share the link? I don't see it.

33,000 uncounted votes...damn. That's a lot. But Fairfax looks comfortably pro-Webb, so I'd still be cautiously optimistic about that being a good thing for Dems.

But Fairfax looks comfortably pro-Webb, so I'd still be cautiously optimistic about that being a good thing for Dems.

Fairfax county is Northern Va, which is Webb's bread and butter. The further you get from DC, the more Republican it gets.

99.56 percent of precincts, not ballots. (And I saw it on TV, not on the website, so I also might have misheard it.)

amend 44 in colorado was voted down :-(

a friend just IM'd and said she heard 33,000 votes as well. (and that she's pleased.)

Interesting election website:

myelectionanalysis.com

Also Robert Greene on what the Dems need to do for long term strategy ( not bask in the glory of the house, but use the momentum to actually accomplish something on a unifying issue)

Right. But 99.56% of precincts in Fairfax County! 33,000 uncounted votes would kind of make that number a lot lower, ya know? There's definitely not .44 of a precinct out there in Fairfax with 33,000 ballots in a truck. At least...I sure hope not.

Aight, time to turn in. I gotta say, this is a good bunch of macacas to watch elections with. Though I think the reds were largely underrepresented tonight ('cept for maybe Gujudude). Anyway, we're all still one country in the morning.

*yawn*

i think the 33,000 uncounted votes number probably represents absentee ballots because carville just said on cnn that his sources tell him that there are about 32,000 early ballots which are yet to be counted, mostly from fairfax county.

so things are looking good in virgina since webb is up going into tonight, and (if) there are 30k+ uncounted votes from the north

missouri is looking good as the votes so far are split pretty evenly and apparently a significant portion of st. louis hasn't reported yet

(sorry to keep parroting carville but he seems to be the only one reporting anything of value other than just the hard numbers that are accessible everywhere)

Webb saying on MSNBC that he has won the race.

Brother Salil, I consider myself more of a red-blue mix, kinda like a cool Popsicle :)

I find it difficult to find any party that 'represents' me. Frankly, I hate political parties. People become far more loyal to their party/tribe than what really matters - The United States.

So, I just take it candidate by candidate and issue by issue. Based upon current definitions, I lean right, but in no way does the Republican party message resonate with me, nor does the Democratic one. It may have to do with not having been raised here or honestly having positions that span the spectrum.

But I'll play along as the 'red' punching bag :)

fox is saying montana will "probably" go dem, and they are leading in missouri. that leaves virginia.

There could also be provisional ballots. Who knows. I'm moving on to Missouri.

p.s. GujuDude: okay, if you insist -- punch, punch, punch. ;)

the dems could control the senate.

britney spears is divorcing K. Fed.

the dems could control the senate.

britney spears is divorcing K. Fed.

just like the dems had planned

Yay! Jay Goyal won in Ohio!

britney spears is divorcing K. Fed.

Popozaooo!

Piper: The ousted Republican candidates surround me like a phalanx. Punch away! Muhahahahahah!

Aight folks, have a good one.

Senate could go 50-50. McCaskill is narrowly holding her lead and Montana is only reporting 58% with Tester ahead. Still hoping for the dems taking the senate though. *crosses fingers*

THE MACACA IS DEAD!!!! LONG LIVE THE MACACA!!!!!

THE MACACA IS DEAD!!!!

Dead as this macaca.

mccaskill just declared victory. but talent didn't concede yet. i just heard chris mathews say it's the first time he can recall a senatorial candidate declaring victory without allowing the opponent to concede. a tradition is broken.

I'm going out for some much needed meth and a message. There will be no happy ending tonght. Razib, page me if something happens. I'm rocked.

a bit about virginia election law according to cnn: provisional ballots will be counted tomorrow nov. 8th, official election results will be released on nov. 27th, at which point if results are within 1%, the losing candidate can (and presumably will) ask for a recount within 10 days. a judge then has 7 days to set the rules of a recount and if the subsequent results are certified by a 3-panel court, they are considered final and cannot be appealed. looks like this will go on until near xmas...

cnn just projected mccaskill the winner in missouri, so its down to montana and virginia...

It's all down to a recount in Virgina and slow counting in Montana. The master of the Senate might not be declared until next month.

The chain of events started by S.R. Sidharth might end stopping the war.

Webb is currently recount-proof, barring a big turn in the absentees and provisionals. But if it happens, Allen will try to subvert the recount. He's the incumbent, the Republican and the one with national firepower since Senate control will rest on it.

The chain of events started by S.R. Sidharth might end stopping the war.

..and that is what some of us macaccas might call poetic justice :)

Am I hearing things or did Jim Talent just concede Missouri? Please tell me I'm not hearing things. *Does a little dance anyway*

OK, I think it is safe to say now that Allen has lost. I am a Republican and it's sad for me to see the Senate changing hands. However, from the Desi perspective, this is a huge victory. EVERYONE will point to the Macaca incident as the turning point in this contest and indeed the race for control of the Senate.

Now of course, there were many other factors, but I do think that the power of Desis will now taken more seriously, similar to the Jewish lobby. This will be overstated, to be sure, but perception MATTERS.

Message: DO NOT MESS WITH MACCACAS!

The tv puditry says if webb can maintain 'some' lead in the next 24hrs, he will win ultimately after all recounts because nobody who is leading lost after a recount. I certainly hope so. I think Virgina gov is a dem so recount will be fair and balanced :)

I think Virgina gov is a dem so recount will be fair and balanced

Kaine is a Dem, but VA is driving distance from DC. An astroturf 'riot' like Rove assembled to shut down the Fla. recount is very doable.

There are no automatic recounts in Virginia, but state law allows a candidate who finishes a half-percentage point or less behind to request a recount paid for by state and local governments.

With a margin greater than that but less than 1 percentage point, the trailing candidate can also seek a recount, but would have to pay the costs if the results are unchanged. [Link]

MACACAS MADE A LOT OF DIFFERENCE IN THIS ELECTION!

Yessir:

Control of the Senate, thus Congress, thus Iraq may lie in this Virginia campaign. How beautiful it would be if the chain of events started by S.R. Sidharth and Macacagate saved thousands of soldiers’ lives and ended this desert misadventure. [Link]

open virginia up to the rest of the country!!! damn the courts!!!!

An astroturf 'riot' like Rove assembled to shut down the Fla. recount is very doable.

Oh come now, Mutineers, are we going to just let that happen?

/whistles innocently.

First female speaker of the house, w00t!

and the second black governor ever and macacas making a difference. not a bad night.

Finally, the good guys (in my state) won :)

Kumar

San Francisco
Proposition J, Call for Bush/Cheney Impeachment
Choice || Votes || %

Yes || 90,937 || 59.4%
No || 62,036 || 40.6%
99% of precincts reporting Updated 11/07 11:41PM

Berkeley passsed impeachment too.

A Kos commenter reported a complete shutout-- no Republican knocked off a Dem (though several Republican incumbents won).

If only there could be a microphone between Pelosi and Vader for the State of the Union's.

I love the smell of napalm in the morning...

Oh what a glorious day! Sometimes it just feels so good to watch good triumph over evil.

Else where in distant lands of Hawaii, senator Akaka stays :)

good triumph over evil

Eh. Triumph of party is not necessarily a triumph in ends,

It is the liberals, then, who count. They are, as it might be, the canaries in the sulphurous mineshaft of modern democracy. The alacrity with which many of America’s most prominent liberals have censored themselves in the name of the War on Terror, the enthusiasm with which they have invented ideological and moral cover for war and war crimes and proffered that cover to their political enemies: all this is a bad sign. Liberal intellectuals used to be distinguished precisely by their efforts to think for themselves, rather than in the service of others. Intellectuals should not be smugly theorising endless war, much less confidently promoting and excusing it. They should be engaged in disturbing the peace – their own above all.

or ideas,

What's happened is both on the right and the left has been a revival of this millenarian fantasy of American omnipotence. The human rights and humanitarian left thinks the United States can right all the wrongs in the world. And the hard Wilsonians, the right neoconservatives, think the United States can remake the world in its own image. Both of these things seem to me to fly in the face of history and reason. The United States is a great power, but no great power is omnipotent. That's, again, why the human rights left scares me as much, if not more, than the Bush administration.

Sometimes same, same, you know.

Hello, fellow sepia mutineers, you didn't think MD-didi would cut-and-run from the comments section just because the Republicans lost, did you? Never fear.....I will stay the course.

First, congratulations and felicitations to my fellow dem-leaning mutineers!

Second, to my (two, tops, despite abhi's big tent wishful thinking theories) fellow repub-leaning mutineers: as conservatives (rather than republicans, I assume, this particular am: no one wants to be a loser), we are supposed to support limited government and a 'throw the bums out' election night is never really a loss for that type of person. Remember, whether right or left, the political types always need to know they can get bounced. It is like an extra dose of democracy vitamins.

Third, silver linings for weeping, gnashing teeth, wasted republicans:

a. Pelosi as face of democratic party. Hint: buy Botox stocks....
b. Bush will finally get his immigration legislation package with a democratic house (this is a silver lining for Bush. I leave it up t you to decide if it is really any kind of metallic lining at all). Paging razib:You are going to get the immigration policies you so love....not! Aw, I love ya man, just joking.
c. Syria, Iran and North Korea are happy to talk and a good talking to they shall receive, those meanies (well, this is a silver lining for them....I leave you to decide if this represents any kind of metallic lining at all).
d. Rangel as chair of Ways and Means and my fellow Massachusettian (sp?) Frank as head of Financial Services, I think? Repubs, this is rich fodder for future campaigns...don't disappoint!
e. Democrats now have to govern and responsibility for Iraq will be shared (okay, I stole that from that right wing idealogue, Mickey Kaus).
f. Many of the elected House democrats are more conservative than a lot of the House republicans. Deal with that, Pelosi!

Truly sad tidings from MD: I'm genuinely sorry about Steele losing. When Russel Simmons and Kweisi Mfume cross over to support a Republican, that must be one interesting Republican. We shall hear from the good Steele again....

As for Web vs Allen? Eh, can't be bothered: economic isolationst vs Senator Macaca. It's a race to the bottom!

It's a race to the bottom!

That's exactly what Rep. Foley said...

Homophobe!

*I kid, I kid.....

GO RAJ!!

I apologize if this point has been made before...haven't read scanned all of SM this morning...

Did it seem to any of you that one repub tactic this election was to make "Nancy Pelosi" a negative rallying cry for their faithful? Did you guys sense a hint of sexism there? Or was that just me? I can't count the number of times I heard "Do you want to hand the house over to Nancy Pelosi?"

Re Pelosi - t's not sexism...it's stone cold fear.

Why is Condi such a hero to the right if it's all about the woman thing? As a woman, shouldn't I take the ideas of women seriously, and, if I disagree, do them the intellectual favor of disagreeing?

Did you guys sense a hint of sexism there?

Yes. Obama beware.

Condi is/was being trashed (for being soft) by the same who trash Pelosi.

come on guys - get out of your gender ghetto. Disliking Pelosi if you are right leaning is like disliking Condi if you are left-leaning.

Oh please. They don't like the way she is dealing with Iran et al. Why is that a woman thing?

Historically women vote more Democrat and men vote more Republican. At a time when mobilizing the base is essential, any Republican appeal to what potentially threatens white men (women, and black people) has a POTENTIAL manipulative aspect. Obviously some targets are more plausible than other. Pelosi has been demonized as much as a "San Francisco liberal" (which itself is a wink to homophobia, in addition to perceived far-left policies), and if there weren't that line of attack available, then the gender-appeal manipulation wouldn't work as well.

It may have to do with your botox stocks crack.

219 was about MD's 217 comment.

It's not a woman thing but it's being played out as one on a deeper level- "we need someone stronger to fight the GWOT. She softens Bush's ears." I'm just relaying what I hear on righty radio, where the Pelosi hyperbole originated from.

A better example than Condi to debunk the sexist charge is Jeanne Kirkpatrick.

siddhartha, my friend, her policies are certainly 'perceived' as far-left by those who are to the right of her. What of it? That's the whole point of the two parties......

The Democrats ran Republicans-in-everything-but-name in several key house races.
Good strategy, but hardly a victory for progressive politics.

I predict grand talk about immigration, shifting the epicentre of the Terror War back to Afghanistan, but essentially nothing coming out of it.

Stagnation, accusations, snivelly subpeonas for about a year, when the focus shifts to the Presidential election, when a real policy shift can talk place.

siddhartha, my friend, her policies are certainly 'perceived' as far-left by those who are to the right of her. What of it? That's the whole point of the two parties......

Nothing of it. You're not getting my point, sorry if it wasn't clear. (Little sleep, not enough coffee.) My point is that appeals to gender, race, or religious animosity/insecurities are difficult to unpack from other aspects of political messaging. That goes for any election, any party. In the specific case being discussed here, I'm saying that one can believe that the Republicans were subtly playing on sexism AND that they had policy-based anti-Pelosi messages simultaneously. It's an answer to the person who asked if there was a hint of sexism: I'm saying yes there was, but there was plenty more, and sexism (or the absence thereof) is not what it boils down to.

Make sense?

Check out the CNN front page. In their graphic showing the balance of power in the Senate they are showing 0 Independents and 49 Dems. This is of course wrong. 2 of those Dems are Independednt. It doesn't matter since the I's will vote Dem but I still think its funny to see such a glaring mistake.

It looks like Michigan voters approved a ban on affirmative action, by a comfortable 58% of the vote.

Michigan Votes Down Affirmative Action

It looks like Michigan voters approved a ban on affirmative action, by a comfortable 58% of the vote.

Michigan Votes Down Affirmative Action

YAY!!! and the abortion ban was turned back in SD. happy days are here for libertarians?....

happy days are here for libertarians?....

I certainly hope so - also note that a number of initiatives protecting property rights against teh abuse of eminent domain also passed. The voters seem to be telling the government to know your limits - don't pay attention to our skin color when we apply to school, stay out of our bedrooms and off our property.

Three cheers for divided government.

Oh, I am so happy. I want to extend all the fellow Macacas !!!!!! congratulations !!!!!! on this day of victory.

so it's great that people will no longer be judged by the color of their skin, but just by how much money they have or what athletic skills they possess? how is it fair that all the other people still get in for reasons other than merit?

It looks like calling a desi a macaca turns out to be a good thing (for desis not so much for the wannabe cowboy).

as a friendly neighbor ... who's mopped your floors and cleaned your loos for minimum wage, i was quite pleased to see the bill for the minimum wage hike (MT?) get through. hey, 59 cent bean burritos get old after a while. :-)

Pelosi's victory speech made it crystal clear she'll remember how importantexiting Iraq was in this election. See Yglesias (can't link now), but anyone who says that this wasn't a small first victory for globally progressive values is ignoring the facts.

And what offends me about holding up Pelosi as a Bogeyman is precisely the SF liberal tag. That the Repubs constantly hawked the sensibility, starting in 1994, that some geographies are more valid than, more American, disgusts me. If the Dem's joined in, it was late and out of desperation---and in this election they have dropped it, running successful, locally grounded candidates in "Red" states. But I get personally offended at the idea that so many would happily hack my Yay Area off the map, or have such a shallow, cartoonish idea of what it means to be an SF or Berkely liberal---a stereotype both ignorant of this locality and the real nature of policy. The homophobia, sexism, anti-multiculturalism, and anti-urbanism pandering of it is just the first order. The imprecision is also maddening. Liberals aren't nearly as ready to call things unAmerican unless it's a matter of unConstitutional. And it was exactly that kind of pandering that motivated the Macaca comment in the first place. It's exactly the same battle we fight here---I'm from the Bay Area, and every bit as American as an anyone else.

Oh, Saheli, where is your usual good common sense and cheer? Rick Santorum is (was) just as much a bogeyman and unAmerican to some types as Pelosi is to, uh, other types. I live in Boston. Trust me on this. I had my trainer (my last trainer) tell me that New England was closer to real America than fly-over. I heard her say it a million times to me, but then her parents are friends of Howard Zinn, so the poor thing had no chance in life.

It is the nature of politics to believe your side is more American than the other and having an honest disagreement about what is constitutional is does not mean one side or the other is evil.

Sometimes I wonder whether sending a dark-skinned man to tape Allen, given his known racist tendencies, was a Webb masterstroke.

having an honest disagreement about what is constitutional is does not mean one side or the other is evil.

Torture, suspending habeas corpus and disappearing citizens is evil. You're either with me or against me on this.

The Democratic win isn't a mandate for liberal policies (thinking that their vision is what won the race). It was a vote against GWB's management at the end of the day. Independent voters, that came out in full force FOR GWB in the 2004 election have shown their distaste in his static/unpragmatic style of leadership.

If the Dems use this opportunity to immediately push, against the grain, policies that don't sit well with the public, they won't have much left for 2008.

I think they understand this and won't make any radical moves in the next two years, more or less chip away, play Clintonian tactics, and go along with the flow.

The Democratic win isn't a mandate for liberal policies

'06 is about Iraq just as '02 and '04 were simply about security. Methinks Dubya purposely misunderstood.

won't make any radical moves in the next two years

Because they don't control the presidency (impeach! impeach!) and judiciary.

This is of course wrong. 2 of those Dems are Independednt

i saw this in the morning too and thought it was a obvious mistake b/c of lieberman but then i wondered if lieberman was switching back or something ...

the dems will control the senate too .... *smiles thinking of the handsome pool i'll win :)

Torture, suspending habeas corpus and disappearing citizens is evil. You're either with me or against me on this.

Cautionary note - she's a vibrant writer, but can be a tad over the top sometimes on issues she is passoinate about.

The voters seem to be telling the government to know your limits - don't pay attention to our skin color when we apply to school, stay out of our bedrooms and off our property.

Manju congratulations on winning gaum.

Santorum was done in by the Sodmites.
wink, wink.

There were a lot of oddities about the exit poll in Webb's race.

There were a lot of oddities about the exit poll in Webb's race.

Isn't it surprising that his allegedly sexist reputation did not affect Webb's popularity among women? The 'horny women's dream' comment doesn't seem to have had much effect. On the other hand, macaca sank Allen.

Impeachment GWB now !!!
I know as soon as right wingers here impeachment of Bush they will say "we are at war" .... Well I have news for them, "you are not at war .. you attacked another nation in imperialist fashion" there is a difference !!!!

Its OK to impeach a president over consensual physical actions, but not OK for causing genocide in a country that he has invaded??? GWB has caused a genocide in Iraq and must be held to account. Otherwise democracy doesnt mean shit. This might as well be a 4 year dictatorship (with an option to extend the dictatorship to 8 years).

Dude, Chill. A majority in the house is not enough to impeach. Plus, they did so why cant we is not a good argument.

they did so why cant we is not a good argument.

It's not about Clinton, "it's about the lying" ;)

montana will go the democratic way too, it seems.

rummy's stepping down. u heard it from me first.

Yep, in just about 5 minutes

>>happy days are here for libertarians?....

Looks like it - especially with a sizable %age of winning Democrats being conservative. Demoplicans and Republicrats brings the right balance to the process.

Pelosi will be put in her place soon enough. We will bring back troops from Iraq as soon as the troops from Germany and Japan are brought home.

Economy will do well. Big Oil and Pharma will have to grease some Democratic palms.

Some lessons for Republicans, most important of them being: Don't spend beyond your means and piss off Libertarians and fiscal conservatives from both parties.

M. Nam

Abhi,
When you get a chance, do share your thoughts in a few words or a post, if so inclined.

How does the changing of the guard in the house bode for the Indo-US nuke deal?

>>How does the changing of the guard in the house bode for the Indo-US nuke deal?

Down the tubes. Bad news for India - Republicans had recognised India as one of the rising stars. Democrats cannot think India and Pakistan as different entities.

It's bad news for Outsourcing as well, and hence Indian IT companies.

M. Nam

PS; Lieberman kicked ass. I loved it.

Abhi, When you get a chance, do share your thoughts in a few words or a post, if so inclined.

How does the changing of the guard in the house bode for the Indo-US nuke deal?

I may in fact do that later this week. Just so you know however, issues like the Indo-US nuke deal are WAY down at the bottom of my list of things I care about in my country.

Kritic:

How does the changing of the guard in the house bode for the Indo-US nuke deal?

Down the tubes. Bad news for India - Republicans had recognised India as one of the rising stars. Democrats cannot think India and Pakistan as different entities.

The Dems can't do jack to outsourcing. The nuclear deal is not dead yet. The support is bipartisan and endorsed by most Dem Congressional leaders. It will depend in part upon whether progressive doves within the party reassert nonproliferation (with the concomitant South Asia thinking) as a policy priority - I doubt it though.

By the way, 40 seconds ago in his press conference Bush just said he's working on the India deal. Moornam, I think your "down the tubes" answer is a typical right wing over-reaction.

H O L Y

Rumsfeld stepped down!

H O L Y

Rumsfeld stepped down!

I didn't think I'd live to see this day.

I didn't think I'd live to see this day.

OMG! My entire lab is hyped!.. and we aren't even American! This is big... I can't wait to see what will happen with Iraq!

This is big... I can't wait to see what will happen with Iraq!

Partition and leave. What else could happen?

OMG! My entire lab is hyped!.. and we aren't even American! This is big... I can't wait to see what will happen with Iraq!

My lab is American, and we're hyped, too!

Partition and leave. What else could happen?

they can be smart about it or stupid...

This is big... I can't wait to see what will happen with Iraq!

Not much in short term. Or option (Comment #.260).

Maybe, changes in the rules of rotation of troops, etc.

Democrats have had the majority in past too, as late as 1994. Sharing of power is good for democracy.

Partition and leave. What else could happen?

they can be smart about it or stupid...

I am not so sure about the partition idea. Remember India?...1947?...things will be no better in Iraq...

>>Partition and leave. What else could happen?

Partition and stay. Shia, Sunni and Kurdish states, with American puppets heading each.

Abhi writes:

>> I think your "down the tubes" answer is a typical right wing over-reaction.

Most Indian newpapers/columnists are saying that it's down the tubes. Are they right-wing too?

M. Nam

PS: I hope the nuclear deal goes thru.

I am not so sure about the partition idea. Remember India?...1947?...things will be no better in Iraq...

Possibly.

Back to Indian subcontinent, it lead to four wars, civil war in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), and the Kashmir problem.

One thing you forget: Most of the oil (major world reserves) is in Kurdish region and in the neighborhood. Parts of partitioned Iraq will starve if partitioned, I am not kidding. This could lead to further instability.

Most Indian newpapers/columnists are saying that it's down the tubes. Are they right-wing too?

MoorNam,

The historic US-China Nuclear deal took 10 years to pass. I think India-US will take somewhat 4-5 years, I really hope Indian mandarins have the mental stamina to rough it out.

Democrats will make noise and then yield. Why? New jobs.

I am not so sure about the partition idea. Remember India?...1947?...things will be no better in Iraq...

There's a de-facto partition of Kurdistan in place since the Gulf War. A tripartite state in place of Iraq is the only way an imperial power can make a "moral" exit and convince itself that it hasn't left behind a minority to be slaughtered. There are unique details about Iraq that make this partition more complicated (i.e. locations of oil and Iran's influence over a Shiite state etc.), but I'd be surprised if some form of partition didn't occur.

Rumsfeld stepped down!

i knew they would pull something like this to steal pelosi's thunder

Here's what Tom Lantos' elevation to Int'l Relations chair means for India and Pakistan.

"Here's what Tom Lantos' elevation to Int'l Relations chair means for India and Pakistan."

that palpatine reference is spot-on!

Here's what Tom Lantos' elevation to Int'l Relations chair means for India and Pakistan.

Thanks Manish, well done. And Natwar Singh deserved all the scorn heaped on him :-)

We won! Yeah! Today is a great day!
After poll monitoring all day yesterday and partying all night, today is even better. AP has called Montana for the Dems and now its recount time in VA before we can say hello to SENATE MAJORITY LEADER HARRY REID!
Mission accomplished, indeed. All the people who worked tirelessly for this victory, please celebrate like its 1994!
To my Republican macacas, dont be too sad, there is always 2008 ;)

I may in fact do that later this week. Just so you know however, issues like the Indo-US nuke deal are WAY down at the bottom of my list of things I care about in my country.

"Your" president did comment about an agreement with "kritics's country", and this was not in response to any prompting by the reporter.

It is understandable that the Indo-US nuke deal is "WAY down at the bottom of [your] list of things [you] care about in [your] country".

One hopes that this means that there will be far fewer posts here about other people's countries,you know, countries that one has never been a citizen of, countries in which one has spent less than three years, countries one has no interest in moving to(Bidismoker exclusion!).

The whole 'Whats good for India' worry is really getting old. I dont think relations with India ranked in the top 50 concerns of an average voter.

amfd,

An american citizen should vote for what is in America's best interest. I agree. I would not want to see a desi version of the likudnik coalition.

My response was to the "my country"ism bit.

Maybe some people think the US-India nuclear deal is good for the US......one of those win-win situations.....

Maybe some people think the US-India nuclear deal is good for the US

Yes. And even if you're not sure, this is the right framing to use :)

One hopes that this means that there will be far fewer posts here about other people's countries,you know, countries that one has never been a citizen of, countries in which one has spent less than three years, countries one has no interest in moving to(Bidismoker exclusion!).

If you don't like my posts then don't read my blog. ;)

Rick Santorum is (was) just as much a bogeyman and unAmerican to some types as Pelosi is to, uh, other types.

Santorum was not held up as a PA-based conservative bogeyman. He was not attacked on the basis of geography. Instead , he was replaced. He made himself a bogeyman by spouting hatred. When has Pelosi ranted against a group with intrinsic qualities, part of their human condition, the way Santorum has ranted against gays? I proudly charactertize gay-bashing as malicious b/c it is malicious, and directed against people I care about deeply, without any fault on their part except being themselves and being part of the human condition. Characterizing foreign policy dissent as malicious is evidence-free, imprecise fear-mongering.

It's apparently fair game to toss a generic, evidence-free jibe at an accomplished historian (read the endnotes sometime) and teacher. You know which conservatives you'll see me serving that kind of disrespect to? Coulter. Santorum. Limbaugh. DeLay. You know why? THEY'RE MEAN! They're cruel and hateful. They're proud of it. When was Pelosi ever repeatedly, deliberately, mean to a whole group of human beings? There is no symmetry. It is a false symmetry.

I disagree with your New England hair dresser, but I also see why she feels that way. The values of tolerant, progressive, coastal urbanism have been attacked ceaselessly for the last 12 years--just to create a bogeyman so appropriations can explode and regulations be gutted. More than 50 per cent of the population lives in a coastal county, so technically speaking, New England IS closer in character to most of America. Not to mention that that's where most of the taxes and GDP come from. Well, I'm proud to say the coasts are sticking up for themselvs and the heartland is remembering its glory days as a bastion of progress. Ideals like living wages, better healthcare, environmental stewardship, just & sensible foreign policy, and tolerance aren't, actually, a function of a particular population density, cultural makeup, or geographical location. E Pluribus Unum.

When has Pelosi ranted against a group with intrinsic qualities, part of their human condition, the way Santorum has ranted against gays?

well, she at least gave a wink to homophobia with regards to the Mark Foley scandel. "Protect our children", please...no children were involved and that gays are pedophiles is a very hurtful stereotype, and this coming from a clinton defender.

I sure Siddhartha agrees.

To my Republican macacas, dont be too sad, there is always 2008 ;)?

If the democratic victory reduces the influence of Rove and other Republican consultants who keep telling Bush to shore up the base as opposed to moving to the center or bringing the center to them, I for one am happy. Hopefully the house, the senate and the presidency keeps moving between the parties every 4-8 years as opposed to the current 12-15 years. This should reduce the influence of lobbyists. Another piece of good news, Rumsfeld was fired. Now let us get rid of Condi and send Cheney hunting in Iraq and we should be fine.

I sure Siddhartha agrees.

You don't need to bait me. As I said in the comment you refer to:

My point is that appeals to gender, race, or religious animosity/insecurities are difficult to unpack from other aspects of political messaging. That goes for any election, any party.

I proudly charactertize gay-bashing as malicious b/c it is malicious, and directed against people I care about deeply, without any fault on their part except being themselves and being part of the human condition

I couldn't agree with you more. I consider myself a moderate republican but the one candidate I was hoping would lose was Santorum more than any democrat. This interview should convince you that this freak's defeat was good for the country.

Saheli - as someone whose best friend is gay (and who shares her blog) I don't much care for gay bashing either. I just thought your rant was a little strange - you won, my friend. Enjoy it.

First Muslim elected to Congress

Does that mean no pork for his district?

Seems like many democrats won in Middle America by co-opting the socially conservative agenda of the Republlicans. This is no victory for a liberal agenda, just an anti-incumbency, anti-war vote.

First Muslim elected to Congress

Does that mean no pork for his district?

Ha! If that were true then CT would be in trouble ...

Plus, they did so why cant we is not a good argument.

Beige,
Thats not my argument. I am saying that Bush is responsible for a genocide of Shia and Sunnis of Iraq. Close to a million people will have been killed due to Bush's stupid and imperialistic action out of hubris. If that is done by other countries they end up in the "Internation Criminal Court" ....

There is difference between two consenting adults having sex, and one president causing death of 1 million people. I hope you see the difference. Thats why IMPEACH IMPEACH IMPEACH !!!!!!

I hate to break it to you, RC, but the Republicans might welcome the impeachment proceedings, nothing will rally the troops better (oops, bad metaphor). I give you voter disgust with impeaching Republicans last time around as exhibit A.

And the genocide is caused by the people genociding, not Bush, i.e. the rival sectarian factions who would rather let blood than work together. If they would just stop blowing each other up, well, they're would be less people being blown up. Why give the genociders a free pass? Can we impeach al Sadr? Can I get a witness? Oops. Second bad metaphor.

If you don't like my posts then don't read my blog. ;)

I neither like nor dislike your posts. But I come here, because, to use razib's phrase, “brown is being made here”. When you and Amardeep go on radio, I am sure neither one of you is presumptuous enough to think that you speak on behalf of 2Gen south asians, but I suspect that the people who invite you to speak do so because they find you both intelligent and radio-worthy, and to them you and Sepia Mutiny are stand-ins for the 2gen south asian voice.

And so I feel compelled to in the words of Martin Buber, to fight in the revolution, against the revolution, for the sake of the revolution.

Anyway, what prompted my initial response is the “my country” bit.

This is unrelated to this thread but I find that the Indians and ex-Indian citizens (the non-nutty ones) here are far too gracious of the critiquing of things Indian. I think they ought to pull the same “my country” attitude. If SM is talking about India, and you are an Indian citizen, you ought engage more vociferously. No apologies. No pussyfooting. No I am sorry I am reading “your” blog, is it ok for me to post on “your” blog.

Next time someone says all Indian politicians are corrupt, tell the posters that none of those corrupt politicians pushed for a war under false premises, that lead to the death of 600,000 Iraqis. Some will refer to the Times of India as the Slimes of India, but the New York Times and Judith Miller is more respectfully disagreed with. They will speak of diabetes in India, but not obesity in America. The criticism of culture is asymmetric. Every thing (politics, religion, culture, movies) in India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan falls under South Asian umbrella. But 98% American issues do not fall under their purview, because well there isn't a South Asian angle, and so the asymmetry of criticism.

MD, what was your original stand on the War and what is it now? You can always take a situation where so many people are dying and obfuscate the facts because, after all, there's so many people dying, no one can really pay attention anymore.

At first it was WMD, then it was getting rid of Saddama, and now its Al Sadr? Come on. Thats a shell game. And meanwhile, people are dying.

I am saying that Bush is responsible for a genocide of Shia and Sunnis of Iraq

RC,

I am not a big fan of Bush but I have to completely agree with MD.

Moreover, in 2003, almost everyone (yes, almost everyone including Democrats and Republicans) were gungho about Iraq. There was a very small minority opposing the war, like Jimmy Carter and few handful of people. It was "shock and awe", baby.

What is happening is simple: The body count of American soldiers are rising. Most of the soldiers dead are from middle, white America. Middle, white America is rightfully so getting concerned, and they see it escalating endlessly. That is pretty much it.

This is unrelated to this thread but I find that the Indians and ex-Indian citizens (the non-nutty ones) here are far too gracious of the critiquing of things Indian. I think they ought to pull the same “my country” attitude.

A much better idea would be for them to start blogs of their own, don't you think? There is no monopoly on thought here. This blog will always be from an American perspective since we are all American. Likewise there are plenty of blogs in India that "pull" the same type of thing you want to see more of.

Kush, good point, but I also think that 'middle America' wants to win and if we are not going to win it, then end it. So, it's more than a pure body count thing.

And yet, we were told that Iraq is better off now than under Saddam. And nor that they is likely not true, we're told that its Shia and Sunni killing each other and its all their fault. Whatever metric is used to say that the war as wrong is simply changed to some other metric. WMD? Its about Saddam? A lot of people dying? At least not as many as during Saddam's time. More people (possibly) dying now than in Saddam's time? Its the nature of the country for people to kill themselves? What will the next change in metric be? All so we can just stay there and take absolutely no responsibility at all for what is going really wrong there

Kush, good point, but I also think that 'middle America' wants to win and if we are not going to win it, then end it. So, it's more than a pure body count thing.

I'm not getting it, middle america wants to win? Is that a policy description? If middle america wanted all the legos in Scandanavia, should we just go and get all the legos there?

"A much better idea would be for them to start blogs of their own, don't you think? There is no monopoly on thought here."

those two statements seem contradictory. why is it that when people criticize something they are told to go start their own blog? i understand that sentiment when there are some truly unpleasant people who say unpleasant things or those who try to tell you exactly what you should and shouldn't write about, but why should an indian/south asian citizen arguing vociferously (but politely) about something written about south asia on an american-perspective south asian blog go start their own blog? a blog is written to get reaction (agreement and disagreement) from others (if comments are allowed, that is). isn't that like telling people to move to another country if you don't like this one (if they say something critical)?

sahej - why are people dying again? Are they dying in Kurdistan? And, didn't the NYT just publish an article where Saddam was within a year of building a 'nucular' bomb? You know, that whole, they put that stuff on the internets for the Iranians to use (okay, that was a silly article). The Iraqis are dying because of a civil war between rival factions, plus some contribution of Iranian/Syrian proxies/jihadists. They were dying under Saddam, they were warring with Iran under Saddam, and now they are dying without Saddam. Whose fault is that? What do you mean shell game? If there was no civil war, US troops would be home now and there would be no dying. Why can't you see that? So, you tell me. Sanctions were wrong, except that they were working, except when they weren't. And, Saddam was no threat to us, so let's keep him in place, except that's wrong because we are ignoring evil dicatators. Supporting/tolerating Saddam was wrong. Removing Saddam was wrong. Are there any other options out there, adults?

those two statements seem contradictory. why is it that when people criticize something they are told to go start their own blog?

Because bloggers HATE when people tell them what to blog about/how to blog. This is a universal rule that you will not get unless you become a blogger. Go start your own blog is our standard response.

You know sahej, if things really were better under Saddam, then Iraqis have no business hanging him. They should re-instate him. It's the only logical policy.

Do you really think if the US leaves precipitously, all the violence will stop on a dime? Either way, lots of people were dying, and it wasn't our fault.

Yeah-- reading any of the thousands of studies your own subordinates produced which told you that breaking Iraq = civil war.

Abhi:

This is unrelated to this thread but I find that the Indians and ex-Indian citizens (the non-nutty ones) here are far too gracious of the critiquing of things Indian. I think they ought to pull the same “my country” attitude.

A much better idea would be for them to start blogs of their own, don't you think? There is no monopoly on thought here. This blog will always be from an American perspective since we are all American. Likewise there are plenty of blogs in India that "pull" the same type of thing you want to see more of.

So you want to criticize India without being inconvenienced by Indians?
I think, certainly hope, that you are still riled over Kritic's baiting, and taking it out on tef. Kritic was just being a troll and unfortunately you took his bait. Believe me, its best to just ignore him.

"A much better idea would be for them to start blogs of their own, don't you think? There is no monopoly on thought here."

I agree with post 298. Honestly, I'm a little disappointed in your statement Abhi. I thought the whole point of this blog was to open discussion on important topics to South Asians. If you are discussing South Asian politics why shouldn't citizens of those countries be able to disagree with you and engage in discussion? If everyone goes and starts their own blog everytime they disagree with someone, where is the discussion? What is the point of allowing comments?

lots of people were dying, and it wasn't our fault.

Just like leaving a kid near a hot stove isn't our fault. We didn't know!

What is the point of allowing comments?

Guys, Abhi's not saying don't comment. He's saying don't tell him what to write; don't pen 10 page essays as comments - those belong on your own blog; don't harangue him to change his cultural POV to that of someone raised in India; don't be a troll.

"Because bloggers HATE when people tell them what to blog about/how to blog. This is a universal rule that you will not get unless you become a blogger. Go start your own blog is our standard response."

as i said, i can understand the sentiment when people TELL you what and how to blog. i agree wholeheartedly. but i was referring to your reaction to tef's advice to indians/other south asian citizens to RESPOND more critically and vociferously to things already written on your blog about South Asia (not the diaspora). just checking that someone who happens to vociferously disagree with something you may have written about South Asia from an American point of view would not be told to go start their own blog.

i.e. the rival sectarian factions who would rather let blood than work together. If they would just stop blowing each other up, well, they're would be less people being blown up.

One fine day the shia and Sunnis of intergrated neighbourhood got up and started killing each other. Those savages.

The civilizing mission continues ....

So the best answer to that is Shock and Awe, and 100,000 plus soldiers with gun, tanks, and missles. I'm sorry I don't see this an inevitable and I don't see this as the least worst option

point understood.

It just seems that sometimes people who are the citizens of the South Asian countries being discussed and have a different POV than noncitizens of those countries or try speaking up for themselves because POVs seem to be imposed on them, they are told to go "elsewhere."

i.e. the rival sectarian factions who would rather let blood than work together. If they would just stop blowing each other up, well, they're would be less people being blown up.

The occupying power has the duty and the responsibilty to provide security for the occupied. Forget Iraq, remove the government/police power structure from LA and watch the city go up in flames.

to everyone who is sooo disappointed in abhi and the mutiny, which always was and will be a place where respectful discussion is cherished and encouraged, remember he was responding to outrageous bait like this:

One hopes that this means that there will be far fewer posts here about other people's countries,you know, countries that one has never been a citizen of, countries in which one has spent less than three years, countries one has no interest in moving to(Bidismoker exclusion!).

oh, word? ONE HOPES?? do NOT tell me what i should or should not write about or how i need to pass some BULLSHIT litmus test before i'm allowed to post about somewhere else. if i feel like posting about india, pakistan, sri lanka or the 100-acre-fucking wood, i will, whether or not i have or ever intend to live there.

we're all tired and it shows. abhi's larger point was, if you think something is missing in the blogosphere, blog it yourself instead of being passive and/or ordering someone else to do it. my point is: don't tread on me (and what i post).

You know sahej, if things really were better under Saddam, then Iraqis have no business hanging him. They should re-instate him. It's the only logical policy.

Do you really think if the US leaves precipitously, all the violence will stop on a dime? Either way, lots of people were dying, and it wasn't our fault.

So the only way to change from a despot to a functional form of government is to have hundreds of thousands of troops invade a country, bomd its infrastructure, dehumanize an entire generation of people to where it seems like its got to be commonplace to see headless bodies on the streets in some areas. That's the "least worst" option? A despot that was given support by the way in earlier times.

And you still have not answered the question of why the metrics for why we are there change every so often.

to everyone who is sooo disappointed in abhi and the mutiny, which always was and will be a place where respectful discussion is cherished and encouraged, remember he was responding to outrageous bait like this:

One hopes that this means that there will be far fewer posts here about other people's countries,you know, countries that one has never been a citizen of, countries in which one has spent less than three years, countries one has no interest in moving to(Bidismoker exclusion!).

It all started in #251. Someone was being a deliberate troll and everything else is a chain reaction.
Lets get over it and move on.

MD:

Rehashing the Iraq debate of the past (what we should have done/should not) is going to give you a headache particularly with those focused in on what Bush has/hasn't done. At this point, those arguments won't give us any value. Those still arguing about the past haven't proposed any new strategy to gain positive territory (both, the right and left).

Having read some opinions around, if it were upto me, I'd put the whole AO (Iraq) under the specific command of US Army Special Forces (Green Berets), not even SOCOM (which is dominated by Rangers and SEALS at high officer level positions). Kinda like the SOG group of Vietnam (Green Berets and local forces who operated independently of big Army with great success, unfortunately Big Army never took a page from their techniques and skills to do much). All infantry, support, Airforce, Marines, Navy etc. would be designed around to support the mission of Army Special Forces for unconventional warfare and Foreign Internal Defense missions (UW/FID). Unforntuately, for the big generals and politicans, unconventional warfare isn't glorious nor sexy, it is a long and hard job that requires very skilled people trained in the languages, culture, and art of negotiation.

Special Forces, PSYOPS, Civil Affairs running the show with whatever manpower support that is needed from any combined arms teams (Infantry, logistics, military intelligence, armor, air support, etc) may help transistion things. Currently, our political and military strategy has become static in an environment where enemies and those vying for power locally adapt rapidly.

Staying the course as is or pulling out completely are both bad options. Give the guys, who should have had the chance to run things to begin with, the opportunity to do so. Less people will die compared to either situation (phased pull out or 'staying the course').

Yes, gujudude, I took sahej's bait and I am sorry I did so, but I also think that you missed the point of what I was doing. My point is to underscore who is causing the violence and death. I still think that is a point worth making. You cannot make serious policy suggestions if you think the violence is only caused by the presence of Americans. That was my point, but your points are well taken.

If you think that was bait, thats insulting. You brought up this topic, and I was reacting to it. I think you should realize that quite a lot of people care about what's going on there.

Peace

"do NOT tell me what i should or should not write about or how i need to pass some BULLSHIT litmus test before i'm allowed to post about somewhere else. if i feel like posting about india, pakistan, sri lanka or the 100-acre-fucking wood, i will, whether or not i have or ever intend to live there."

exactly. sorry, last comment on this. to be fair, i think i've also seen comments (rare but they have popped up now and then) discounting or diminishing "FOB" or Indian points of view about something indian-american or south asian american or just plain american because they didn't grow up here. the reverse also applies: they can also express their views about something that isn't exactly their experience.

You also cannot make serious policy suggestions if you think the violence was not unleashed by the invasion (breaking the security apparatus). This was no surprise to anyone who read a damn thing about Iraq before the war.

Kush,
I am not a fan of the Democratic isolationalist policies either. But I think at the moment the world needs in my opinion to not have any more imperialistic wars for OIL as admitted by Bush recently .

Thats why I feel happy for the collosal defeat of Republicans and their stay the course policy.
I personally cant understand how anyone can justify the carnage in Iraq on a human level. If the justification is being done politically to prove a point, than that is just beyond the pale, in my opinion.

I am no fan of Dems with the crazy economic isolation also I cant understand and support the extreme liberal social policies too, but in my opinion we have bigger problems right now.

Gujudude,

Look what happened in Vietnam. Respectfully, you are missing complete sense of history. Don't you see Vietnamization of Iraq - no replacement of Americans in Iraq at almost any level. Maybe, you are talking about neo-Lawrence of Arabias emerging from Americans there. I do see that happening either. They are not trained that way. For pete sake, most of them are active reserves.

The only way it would have worked General MacArthur-Emperor Hirohito model in post WW 2 model, meaning thereby you keep the entire government, social, political structure intact, and change it step by step. Japan was made to undergo huge changes but in 6+ years with Emperor Hirohito's blessing. True, Japan ~= (.notequal.) Iraq in fundamental ways.

Let bygones be bygones.

Some pan-Iraqi power structure and leaders need to be found asap.

One hopes that this means that there will be far fewer posts here about other people's countries,you know, countries that one has never been a citizen of, countries in which one has spent less than three years, countries one has no interest in moving to(Bidismoker exclusion!).

Whoa. A few people who like reading this blog (like me) don't live in either the US or India...tef, I think you need to come breathe some calming air in the little land where the sheep run through the fields...

who cares? This blog is FUN. It's my FUN procrastination time... Once you make a FUN blog then people's saffron balls will twitch enough to take them over to your 'authentic' side.

I think the main problem from Indian-residing commenters is a lack of respect shown for other commenters for being too based in the west and what they see as being too focussed on it. Kinda hard not to be if you live here! It just equates to the 'real' Indians sounding like a bunch of nagging aunties telling people to be more this, or do more that, and nagging aunties are not fun...

don't turn things into an 'us' vs. 'them' battle, everyone knows aunties are famous for their guilt tripping skills and there are few places in the blogosphere where different views are as welcome as on this blog.

If you think that was bait, thats insulting. You brought up this topic, and I was reacting to it.

check yourself-- YOU weren't the one who typed the bait and *i* didn't bring up a damned thing. kindly get your facts straight. we are ALL reacting to EVERYTHING.

GujuDude:

Good points. But I think communicating with the American people is equally important. Rumsfeld's press briefings were notorious for him to trying to show off how much better he is than the rest of us. The contempt was clear. They need to communicate some of the benchmarks and where Iraqis are on a regular basis. Some details that are considered strategic can be left out but tactical ones can be shared. Instead of engaging intelligent people they use that idiot, Bill O' Reilly's tactics and ask people if they really want to win in Iraq. I was surprised to see Lynne Cheney, an otherwise intelligent person, resort to such tactics.

And if the president can fire Condi that would be helpful too. Most incompetent NSA and now the most useless Secretary of State.

Rumsfeld's press briefings were notorious for him to trying to show off how much better he is than the rest of us

Nara,

Most of American Secretary of Defense are very arrogant. It is part of the job, and survival. Pentagon will eat you alive, and you are not one

You cannot make serious policy suggestions if you think the violence is only caused by the presence of Americans. That was my point, but your points are well taken

Agreed. Violence in the region has existed and manifested itself in different forms - Iran/Iraq war (most weapons used, contrary to conventional wisdom, were actually French and Russian); suppression of the Kurds by Shias, Arab Sunnis, and Turks; Saddam's rise to power; WWII...... most of which has far stronger local roots.

Ultimately, Iraq as one country may not be a feasible solution. One has to consider that. In the meantime till people make the transition to a stable and non-violent power structure (Federal union, independent states, etc), a dynamic capacity to conduct unconventional warfare is needed from our side to gain lost time and control, salvage the situation (not our pride, own political parties) to the best outcome possible.

Sadly, I don't think ANY side gets that.

Why does everyone consider the India-US nuclear deal an "Indian" issue? In almost every way, it is more of an American policy concern than an Indian one, because it is a real policy manouvre for the U.S. and a symoblic gesture of goodwill for India.

If you don't care about this aspect of policy, so be it, but don't paint it as not relevant to the U.S. because it clearly is - over the long run, more so than Iraq, etc.

Anna,

Unless you are MD, this is what I was responding to:

Yes, gujudude, I took sahej's bait and I am sorry I did so, but I also think that you missed the point of what I was doing. My point is to underscore who is causing the violence and death. I still think that is a point worth making. You cannot make serious policy suggestions if you think the violence is only caused by the presence of Americans. That was my point, but your points are well taken.

To which I said, my comment was not bait as I feel as strongly as MD does about these issues.

Check what?

Why does everyone consider the India-US nuclear deal an "Indian" issue? In almost every way, it is more of an American policy concern than an Indian one, because it is a real policy manouvre for the U.S. and a symoblic gesture of goodwill for India.

Agreed. Its largely a symbolic gesture for India. If this doesn't go through, they'll probably find another.

To which I said, my comment was not bait as I feel as strongly as MD does about these issues.

Check what?

Nothing. I thought you were talking to me and I'm sorry for the mistake.

...brown.

Rumsfeld's press briefings were notorious for him to trying to show off how much better he is than the rest of us

He pissed off a lot military personnel who used to support him with that "As you know, you have to go to war with the Army you have" comment.

Its all good. I actually am a little crabby today, I think all this democracy went to my head a bit

Most of American Secretary of Defense are very arrogant. It is part of the job, and survival. Pentagon will eat you alive, and you are not one

I remember William Cohen and Les Aspin. I don't think they were arrogant. Cheney as far as I remember during the Gulf war handled his press briefings with a lot more humility. A book (Vice) that I read recently said many army personnel still think he was one of the best. I was not in this country when Weinberger was the sec of def.

I do not get the survival part. You think if the civilian leadeship shows weakness, the military will take control. Arrogance with the press and the public is different from being strong with the military.

You may be right. My impression is not based on sound research. I have heard that Robert McNamara was also notorious for looking down at people.

Agreed. Its largely a symbolic gesture for India. If this doesn't go through, they'll probably find another.

Indian Americans are sadly by and large no different from most other Americans - they tend to think the world revolves them and their aspirationally imperial nation

I do not get the survival part. You think if the civilian leadeship shows weakness, the military will take control. Arrogance with the press and the public is different from being strong with the military. You may be right. My impression is not based on sound research. I have heard that Robert McNamara was also notorious for looking down at people.

Not to get in endless debate, I think a civilian head has to assert and show his authority. Some of them do in more outwardly way, and some don't.

It is not military will take control or anything like that, it is just you might loose their respect and credibility. Also, they are always multiple factions jokeying for power within Pentagon.

PS: There was in 2001, NYT Sunday Times article on Secretary of Defense, and sink-or-swim job it is. That is where my "survival" came from. Part of Rumsfeld arrogance is his strength. I do not think he is bothered, he is eternal insider in the beltway. Wasn't he Secretary of Navy in Nixon administration? He is 70+ and mega-rich.

The job of the SECDEF is to assert civilian control over the military as directed by the President. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. The responsibility is the President's who sets policy. The military is a tool of international policy, just as the State Department, Commerce, and whichever other departments interact on an international stage. SECDEF and Military aren't chummy chummy all the time.

A civilian coming in and asserting control of the military isn't an easy job. Having said that, the job still needs to be done. Cheney was considered a good SECDEF. It was him who brought in John Boyd to consult for the ground battle in Desert Storm. Good ol Stormin Normin wanted to go right up the middle, through Kuwait, in full force. It got shot down by John Boyd (modern day equivalent strategist of Sun Tzu, Von Clausewitz) who managed to come up with the idea of the USMC feinting up the middle while most of the forces raced through the desert in a fast maneuver (left hook/hail mary) around the Republican Guard divisions. Cheney had once listened to Boyd give a lecture on the OODA loop and was very impressed. (Refernce: John Boyd the fighter pilot who changed the art of warfare by Robert Coram).

McNamara is probably the most hated one though and shades of it appear with Rumsfeld (though not even close in the level of it).

I disagree with the above representaions of what I was trying to say.

I admire the work put into this blog. I find the site very compelling. But I assume you would be happy to see me leave. I shall go then.

My mangled message to Indians, further coded, to alienate and otherize the 2genner south asians: Yahaan peh logaan front-foot peh khelre, apun ka geeround meh aake, front-foot peh khelre? Bounceraan dalo! Bounceraan!

My comment about Pelosi was directly inspired by timely discussion of Pelosi. Someone asked if holding her up as a bogeyman was sexist, I think it's anti-coastist. I'm enjoying wins preciesly b/c I was so annoyed that Pelosi was being held up as a bogeyman for no other reason than representing the great city of San Francisco--and that strategy failed miserably. Huzzahs are sweeter when you remember the preceeding bitters.

Yahaan peh logaan front-foot peh khelre, apun ka geeround meh aake, front-foot peh khelre? Bounceraan dalo! Bounceraan!

bouncerran nahi - seedha fulltoss sar pe dalo :-)

I admire the work put into this blog. I find the site very compelling. But I assume you would be happy to see me leave. I shall go then.

No, I don't have much of a problem with your comments. I have a problem with Kritic who you chose to defend here without understanding his commenting history.

Pelosi was being held up as a bogeyman for no other reason than representing the great city of San Francisco

I am sure that San Francisco is a great city (glad I live on the other end :))

But Pelosi has a track record and she in fact is very liberal. just like democrats used the President as bogeyman, the republicans have a right to do what they did. Unfortunately, or fortunately, it did not work.

Nancy Pelosi scares me.

Not because she's from San Fran or that she's a woman.

She has the crazy looking eyes, you know, the Jennifer 'Runaway Bride' Wilbanks type of crazy look in her eye.

*Shudders*

I think what's plenty interesting is the marked effect that the GOP old guard (publicly, James Baker) is beginning to have on this Administration, ie. recanting the 'stay the course' mantra, Rumsfeld resigning, Robert Gates reemergence, taking the mikes away from Perle, Frum, and their brand of conservatism.

If I was a Republican, I would be plenty happy that some of the fringe elements are fading. If I was a Democrat, I'd be plenty worried about a GOP attempt to move towards the center for 2008. The fringe, like Senator Macaca, is good for business no?

Ironic that Ortega returns to office at the same time Gates returns to Washington:

In his career, Mr Gates also served on the White House national security staff in 1974-79, and became deputy national security adviser to the first President Bush before he became CIA director.

But the most controversial moment in his career was during his period as deputy director, intelligence of the CIA between 1982-86, becoming deputy director of the CIA in April 1986 and acting director in 1986.

As such, he was in a position to know about the so-called Iran-Contra scandal, which involved the illegal diversion of funds from the sale of arms to Iran to fund the Contras, who were fighting against the left-wing Sandinistas who had taken power in Nicaragua.

Mr Gates was investigated by the office of the independent counsel in 1991, but was never prosecuted for any offence.

Abhi,

No I didn't know the commenting history of Kritic. I am still holding on to the asymmetry of the criticism bit. Perhaps I should blog. : ) Thanks for your response.

lord of war,

bouncerran nahi - seedha fulltoss sar pe dalo :-)

That would not be cricket! : )

That would not be cricket! : )

It's over! Webb wins. The Dems take the Senate! So says the AP:
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/11/08/D8L98BDO1.html

Woohoo!

T'is true!

The Associated Press contacted election officials in all 134 localities where voting occurred, obtaining updated numbers Wednesday. About half the localities said they had completed their postelection canvassing and nearly all had counted outstanding absentees. Most were expected to be finished by Friday.

The new AP count showed Webb with 1,172,538 votes and Allen with 1,165,302, a difference of 7,236. Virginia has had two statewide vote recounts in modern history, but both resulted in vote changes of no more than a few hundred votes.

An adviser to Allen, speaking on condition of anonymity because his boss had not formally decided to end the campaign, said the senator wanted to wait until most of canvassing was completed before announcing his decision, possibly as early as Thursday evening.

The adviser said that Allen was disinclined to request a recount if the final vote spread was similar to that of election night.

The victory puts Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nev., in line to become Senate majority leader. He has led the Democrats since Tom Daschle, D-S.D., was defeated two years ago.[link]

OH SHIT....this is amazing. What will SM do to celebrate? You guys need to throw a big macacagate party!!

It's over! Webb wins.

Hakuna macaca!

yeah! this news has inspired me to buy an "i'm not your macaca" t-shirt! :)

Tash (# 322),

IMO, the 'saffron balls' part thrown in casually is not appropriate. I'm sure you don't mean offense, but that is for the SpoorLams of the world. Not all Indians have the same views and not everyone who disagrees with SM is a nagging auntie type.

yeah! this news has inspired me to buy an "i'm not your macaca" t-shirt! :)

I have a "Macacas with Attitude" tshirt and every time I've worn it some random white dude will get into an apologetic conversation with me during which he will attempt to convince me that he is progressive, knows about brownz and hangs with them! Never fails. Sales guy at Ikea, Mail man, Guy reading the paper next to me on the train, Park Ranger upstate NY etc etc. You should get it, makes for interesting conversation, mostly blabbing from others!

I have a "Macacas with Attitude" tshirt and every time I've worn it some random white dude will get into an apologetic conversation with me during which he will attempt to convince me that he is progressive, knows about brownz and hangs with them!

by and large, we live among decent people. really. all of us. even in red states - as long as we reach over the hedge and shake hands.

tho' i confess - i chanced into fremont once and it creeped me out. -shudder-

Awesome news!! Would like to thank the SM bloggers, Subodh Chandra and numerous commenters who covered Macacagate,articulated the issue & options, & inspired brownz to represent.

It's over! Webb wins. The Dems take the Senate!

I have been waiting for this for so long :) Can't believe that it finally happened. I only hope the Dems dont screw up like the Republicans did after 1994. This country cannot afford another Republican President in 2008.

by and large, we live among decent people. really. all of us. even in red states - as long as we reach over the hedge and shake hands.

:-) Yes very optimistic. Chances are also high they were just looking at my chest and making conversation about it and I was stupid to think it was about Macacagate!

i chanced into fremont once and it creeped me out. -shudder-

hairy, what happened?

Tash,
Can you please stop calling INDIAN nationals nagging aunties? I don’t think Kritics comment was nagging at all. He made a valid suggestion because this site claims to be about South Asians and Americans. And Indian-American deal interests both group of the people even other south asians. He didn’t ask Abhi to write about some local issue from India.

Also for 20% readership of this blog which comes from India, a prospective from a blog which knows both sides better than any would have helped those readers understand it better.

Can we get back to Gujudude's point for a moment?

Having read some opinions around, if it were upto me, I'd put the whole AO (Iraq) under the specific command of US Army Special Forces (Green Berets), not even SOCOM (which is dominated by Rangers and SEALS at high officer level positions). Kinda like the SOG group of Vietnam (Green Berets and local forces who operated independently of big Army with great success, unfortunately Big Army never took a page from their techniques and skills to do much). All infantry, support, Airforce, Marines, Navy etc. would be designed around to support the mission of Army Special Forces for unconventional warfare and Foreign Internal Defense missions (UW/FID). Unforntuately, for the big generals and politicans, unconventional warfare isn't glorious nor sexy, it is a long and hard job that requires very skilled people trained in the languages, culture, and art of negotiation.

I should admit, I've thought roughly the same thing. Though I think Army Special Forces is not exactly geared up for occupation. Unconventional warfare, yes. Nationbuilding, no. And while you have a point about the "what's done is done" thing, I would like to point out that Dubya said "we don't do nation-building" about 50 times before embarking on a course of...everyone together now...nation-building.

(Of course, it was nation-building general-housing-contractor-style. Nation-building using the shittiest fixtures, substandard materials, the worst tools, and mortar made mostly out of sand)

Anyway, I digress. I would like to think that the Army SF, and the Marines, and certain other branches of the military who have great track records with counter-insurgency tactics, would do the trick when it comes to fighting this war. I don't really see them doing much beyond that. But I'm all for letting them take their gloves off and fight the way they want to. I mean, we've already fucked that country up but good. We're already killing civilians by the al-Boatload, we're NOT setting up a democracy, and we're not even getting the goddamn oil. Fine, shoot the place up, go boot-to-door-to-door even more, broadcast propaganda from loudspeakers, park more tanks in the streets, see if any of that helps.

By the way, the whole fear of Vietnam thing that various others keep bringing up? Enough. Vietnam, as it turned out, was just fine after we left. A little crazy, but they sure didn't herald the end of the world, democracy in Asia, and the American way of life, the way the State Department and the Pentagon said. Likewise, an Iraq controlled by insurgents would be bad, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. It's scary, but it's time we seriously considered that as an option.

Vietnam, as it turned out, was just fine after we left.

Whoa there. Fine for who?

because this site claims to be about South Asians and Americans.

Also for 20% readership of this blog which comes from India, a prospective from a blog which knows both sides better than any would have helped those readers understand it better.

That's just it-- we can't win. Do we know both sides? According to some on your side, we don't. In any case, would it be possible to end this bit of threadjacking? Your point of view is duly noted.

i

chanced into fremont once and it creeped me out. -shudder-

hairy, what happened?

But I'm all for letting them take their gloves off and fight the way they want to. I mean, we've already fucked that country up but good. We're already killing civilians by the al-Boatload, we're NOT setting up a democracy, and we're not even getting the goddamn oil.

You assume that the US is actually fighting a permanent, postured enemy, an enemy that existed before the US arrived, an enemy that is discrete and exists today, and an identifiable enemy that will exist tomorrow. This enemy you speak of are Iraqi's, the average Jameel's that institutionalists needed on their side for nation building.

Leave. Eat crow. And for godsake be astute with statecraft which means be a two-faced bastard and open up back channels with Syria and Iran to negotiate the mess ye sowed.

Anyway, I digress. I would like to think that the Army SF, and the Marines, and certain other branches of the military who have great track records with counter-insurgency tactics, would do the trick when it comes to fighting this war.

Army Special Forces is not only proficient at counterinsurgency, they are essentially battlefield 'diplomats' They have the unique ability to teach and create forces (it takes time, but a reduced footprint helps). Unconventional warfare isn't as much as 'taking the gloves off' - that is the direct action approach of Army Rangers and Navy SEALs. SF does have that mission, but they are uniquely situated to do much much more. They aren't geared for occupation, but they are geared to teach those who will govern/fight/defend the skills necessary to achieve stability on local levels (building the pyramid upto more central power structures).

You are right though; an insurgency and nation building takes more than the military. However, starting off on the right foot or at least approaching one phase of war (the military part) can be done more effectively. Diplomacy, economic means, etc -ALL need to be used to win wars. Each tool supports each other and amplifies the effect of the other. Reduction of US military footprint, if we're not going to commit resources for attrition warfare (way more troops than now) is a way to go, but change the nature of the personnel there (and who calls the shots). Afghanistan in its first few years was primarily a Army SF mission, which they did pretty damn well. When the enemy started to go more unconventional, the Pentagon ramped up more Conventional forces and pulled SF back (essentially poured in more Direct Action door kicking elements). The more I read about US Army Special Forces, the more I see they need MUCH more involvement, particularly on the strategic level and decision making processes.

Vietnam and Iraq are different animals. If there is anything close in US history, as I've read on military forums, suggestions of the insurgency in the Phillipines comes up. Plus most of Vietnam was a conventional (though jungle warfare) fight against NVA regulars. The insurgency part worked in combination with the conventional forces to achieve a victory (convincing the US public they had lost after Tet, though VC/NVA sustained unrepairable damage). LBJ and McNamara's linearity in approaching the war and micromanagement sure helped screw things up, too.

:-) Yes very optimistic. Chances are also high they were just looking at my chest and making conversation about it and I was stupid to think it was about Macacagate!

well said hairy. so by extension, we need to kill off the stationary PC and mandate worldwide wireless.

The Coalition for Partnership for India. A US-India friendship lobby with substantial support, had this to say about the deal prospects during the lame duck session in their email blast today:

The implications the Democratic takeover of the House – and possibly the Senate – hold for U.S.-India civilian nuclear cooperation is a topic of much current discussion. While the Coalition for Partnership with India recognizes that many legislative initiatives may be affected by the change, we are optimistic that the India bill will weather the shift in political climate. Very possibly, the new dynamics may enhance the prospects for early approval as both parties, suddenly in balance, seek to demonstrate comity.

Senator Reid and Senator Frist has each stated publicly his desire to pass S. 3709 during the lame duck session. President Bush, in his remarks this afternoon, voiced the same position, mentioning the India bill among his top legislative priorities for the upcoming session. The broad, bipartisan support for the bill is evidenced by the Senate Foreign Relations Committee’s 16-2 vote to approve it. When the bill comes to the Senate floor, most experts believe it will win by a margin similar to the landslide House vote of 359-68.

Indeed, a solid majority of Democrats and Republicans alike support the strategic, nonproliferation, and environmental benefits embodied by U.S.-India civilian nuclear cooperation. With none of the Senate opponents of the bill indicating an intention to block it, the challenge now becomes balancing the need for dissenters to voice their concerns with the scarcity of floor time during the lame-duck session.

This could just be their game face, though I remain cautiously optimisitic. The Times of India, on the other hand, has already gone into mourning. Congratulations to the Democrat supporters! Its been a long time coming.

Vietnam, as it turned out, was just fine after we left.

Whoa there. Fine for who?

Well, I was being semi-facetious, as usual. But after a decade of fairly crazy behavior, Vietnam did embark on some serious reform in the 1980's, and it's now a fairly decent place. It has a strong economy, it's got some interesting industries, and it's a part of what I think of as "modern Asia." I'd say that America's war there didn't really accomplish much. It sure didn't steer Vietnam in this direction, before anyone tries to jump at that particular brass ring.

While Vietnam and Iraq aren't parallel, they are similar in one way: America fears what might happen in Iraq, just America feared what would happen in Vietnam if it just up and left. And America (both its politicians and its citizenry) is allowing that fear to color its decisions in Iraq again.

WaPo just declared Webb the winner.

You assume that the US is actually fighting a permanent, postured enemy, an enemy that existed before the US arrived, an enemy that is discrete and exists today, and an identifiable enemy that will exist tomorrow. This enemy you speak of are Iraqi's, the average Jameel's that institutionalists needed on their side for nation building.

NVM: Well, no, no, no, yes, and yes. Every enemy is discrete and exists. We just have some trouble being able to tell. Semantics, I know. But your point is taken.

The thing is, just about ANYTHING other than leaving the US military in Iraq without any real plan but "let's hope the Iraqis get their act together fast!" is a good option right now. I mean, more SF forces, reduced conventional army footprint as Gujudude suggests? Sure, sound good. Pull out altogether and eat crow? Can't be worse than leaving American kids there to get killed, and still collectively eating crow.

Let's hope that Rummy and Bush's Big Adventure can be fixed, or at least steered somehow, or maybe just turned into a reality show in 2008.

If I had superpowers and could be a unilateralist preemptive nation building missionary of democracy I'd consolidate forces to the bases, protect the pipelines, finance nation building, but leave the brainstorming & riff raff to some stooges and expats. Hmmm? What? That's Saudia Arabia you say? Oh.

As for Iraq, well...

They say the first 200 year old person is an infant today. Perhaps Saddam's successor has just been born.

erm ... i know this is a very dumb question, but ... who exactly is the "official" reporting body on election wins? i know various news outlets have reported webb's victory, but i am always reminded of thomas dewey when i read victory headlines. (al gore, for that matter, as well).

erm ... i know this is a very dumb question, but ... who exactly is the "official" reporting body on election wins?

Not a dumb question. The Secretary of State (of each state) has the final say and "certifies" the election results. This result has not been certified.

Thanks, Abhi. I lived out of the country during the time I think we are supposed to learn these things and later on conveniently circumvented the state requirement of studying both American govt. and constitution. It was a serious oversight I never bothered to point out (or correct personally).

No problem Milli. I recommend you rent all the seasons of The West Wing on DVD. It teaches you everything you forgot from high school plus it was a kick ass show :)

Tashi ji,
Namaste. I am very saaaawry that they [aunty types] shit on your parade now and then. They are just uncoth, you the type of people who eat food with their hands***.Maaf Kriya ga. Please let me know if Indians ever be wet blankets again. Please be assured they will be never even dare to question. Pranam.

*** It is possible that tef and kritic have been living in States (since the exchange happened live during the day) longer than you in NZ, but those are details, details.

Kritics, tef
Bhagoo saloo, Saheb, Memshaheb ko pareshan kar rai ho. Pata nahi kaha kaha see ah jata hai [Shooo, Don't harass Sahib and Memshahib. I do not know where you guys come from]

Kush,

Aunty-ness is not a measure of fobness for me. Anyone can be a nagging aunty, for me it's about an holistic approach and viewpoint to a situation:

a) am I going to guilt trip other people and accuse them of things while taking no positive actions to change what I see as a problem?

b) am I going to voice my opinions but then find solutions for what I see as a problem?...

for me nagging aunties come under a). I'm v proud to me Indian and occasionally eat with my hands and shake my head from side to side and other such measures of Indian-ness which the patriotism brigade seem to throw around here.

I think it's great that 20% of SM readership comes from India. I don't think it's great when anyone makes destructive rather than constructive points of criticism on a privately run blog which we are all invited to visit provided we are respectful, both in agreement and dissent.

Janeofalltrades,

What will SM do to celebrate? You guys need to throw a big macacagate party!!

And what do you think will happen then ? What always happens at desi parties. Everybody will smoke. The Punjabis will all get drunk. All the guys will ogle the hot women but will be too chicken to do anything (apart from the handful of "class studs"). The "bad girls" sitting in the corner will get bored after a while and will discreetly sneak out to the nearest club in order to "find some men", while the mass of sozzled, horny, chain-smoking desi guys left at the party will stare after them wistfully and think "Damn, not again".

Same old same old.

Salil & GujuDude,

Likewise, an Iraq controlled by insurgents would be bad, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. It's scary, but it's time we seriously considered that as an option.

*Jai applies some lateral thinking but chooses his words very carefully*

There would also be a positive byproduct to that awful scenario. As we all know, one of the biggest problems currently faced with regards to decisively taking out Al-Qaeda is the fact that they are not a national army in the conventional sense of the term. At least having large numbers of them localised in one country would give you a specific target to aim your weapons at, especially in terms of old-school warfare.

Which is, of course, tragically still going to be very nasty indeed for the mass of ordinary Iraqi civilians who get caught up in the crossfire if their entire country really does end up being completely hijacked by the fanatics.

************************************

Applying some more lateral thinking, another possibly-unforeseen but positive consequence of Rumsfeld being fired and the Republicans being so soundly defeated is that it shows the Middle-East that democracy really can "work" (even more so if the Democrats now really go after the guilty parties in the current US administration). So this could indeed inadvertantly help the aim of "bringing democracy to the Middle-East", or at least play some part in convincing the sceptical/cynical parties over there. We hope.

The "bad girls" sitting in the corner will get bored after a while and will discreetly sneak out to the nearest club in order to "find some men",

Nothing maketh a brown party like the 12 pm exit to go find some hot white/Polynesian/Latino boys :)

Thanks Jai for the deja wu ;)

*am, am. oops.

I recommend you rent all the seasons of The West Wing on DVD. It teaches you everything you forgot from high school plus it was a kick ass show :)

I second that. I love love love that show and bought the DVDs so I can actually refer back to them sometimes.

Same old same old.

Awwww I don't necessarily know if the average "older" Indian who would be at these "usual" parties really is into American politics because they don't necessarily feel connected to this country. The depth of triumph over a bigot who was too obvious might resonate more with those that feel affinity to this country and were born and raised here.

Janeofalltrades,

I was just joking about the party -- just describing some desi events I've been to myself in my younger days ;)

I love The West Wing too (the show actually inspired me to go off and do lots of background reading on the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address and so on).

Martin Sheen Zindabad.

What will SM do to celebrate? You guys need to throw a big macacagate party!!

Good suggestion. SM should throw a huge party macaca style.

I have a question...I received an email about the passing of the Marriage Amendment in VA:

...the Marriage Amendment was approved in Virginia. Many people thought this had solely to do with gay marriage and it was wrongly referred to as the Gay Marriage Amendment. In reality, it is already illegal for gay couples to be married in VA. This amendment was a redundancy in that aspect.

In actuality, it has more significant and negative repurcussions in the community for heterosexual couples. Now that the amendment was passed, women who are being abused (emotionally, physically, financially, sexually, etc.) in relationships with partners they are not married to will not be protected. A similar law was passed in Ohio and thousands of women (and some men) could not be protected by the law.

Is this true? does anyone know off hand...I'm looking into it, but google searches right now seem to focus on the fact that is passed, not on what it is or what it'll mean for heteros (and battered spouses esp).

Awwww I don't necessarily know if the average "older" Indian who would be at these "usual" parties really is into American politics because they don't necessarily feel connected to this country.

I'm just not sure that's true - I think of my parent's generation as a lot more politically conscious than mine, and that's significantly a function of coming of age in a much more politically tumultuous time. One of my first childhood memory was how in the first grade, I had to support Walter Mondale and that Reagan would have us all be a victim of nuclear holocaust. My parents and their friends imbued the spirit of the 60s (which spread far beyond the U.S.) much more than my peers imbue any political consciousness.

Awwww I don't necessarily know if the average "older" Indian who would be at these "usual" parties really is into American politics because they don't necessarily feel connected to this country.

Ms. JOAT,

There is a Professor in Chemistry @ LSU (Louisiana State University)*. He must be close to 80 years old and is originally from India. During the height of civil rights movement, he did protest sitins in white-only delis, did marches led by MLK and his southern organizers. That is risking life and your well being.

Our famous NP winner, Chandrashekhar used to do voter's drive long before MTV [this info can be found any 1-2 page bio on Chandra].

I don't think you are in that leaugue yet. Not even close. They seem pretty average joe/ ramu to me.

*He might be still listed on LSU Chemistry webpage as an emertius faculty.

My response was to the "funny" picture of the "average desi party" Jai painted. I have been to those parties mostly because I was forced to when I was young.

Besides the women in the kitchen talking about recipes, kids, gossip and the men outside arguing about something very little to do with American politics it was a fairly uninvolved careless bunch.

There will always be people that truly care in every generation. Older immigrants that came here in the 80s, 90s don't necessarily feel as passionate about American politics as those that came here young in the 60s and 70s.

FYI - Apparently, Allen will be conceding the election at a 3pm press conference.

There will always be people that truly care in every generation. Older immigrants that came here in the 80s, 90s don't necessarily feel as passionate about American politics as those that came here young in the 60s and 70s.

I agree that its significantly generational - people coming of age everywhere (or learning a new political paradigm) in the 80s and 90s were less politically active than those in 60s and 70s

Is this true? does anyone know off hand...I'm looking into it, but google searches right now seem to focus on the fact that is passed, not on what it is or what it'll mean for heteros (and battered spouses esp).

Kenyandesi, its true. Dalia Lithwick covered this on Slate last week. You should check out that article.

JoaT,

I have been to those parties mostly because I was forced to when I was young.

I was referring to the sort of get-togethers desi college kids here in the UK had during my university years (and probably still have). At least in cities and colleges with huge desi student populations, of which there are many in Britain.

Remember A Different World ? Well, imagine the same thing but with British South Asians instead of American black people, and you get the general idea.

Thanks Abhi,
I had no clue, and I'm so very sure many other people didn't either....damn :(

Democratic Maryland politician Jim Gilchrist has the most unfortunate coincidence of names ever. (If you wonder why I say that, try typing "Jim Gilchrist" into Google and hitting "I feel lucky.")

Yours truly wrote in #250:

>>Pelosi will be put in her place soon enough

Boy, if only I could predict the stock markets with such uncanny accuracy...

M. Nam