whoever encouraged you to share this should be shot. sorry taz...you are just not a strong enough writer to pull this off.

Don't listen to lurker. It was a very interesting read. Diaspora experience, desi political and ethnic identities, Dalrymple reference... can I be your groupie?

I used to resent that question too, but I have warmed up to it as it has led to many interesting conversations. Now when I sit in a cab, I usually ask the question first. (Though I'm not always fully honest. This is more of a defense mechanism to avoid unpleasantness. One parent is from India, other is from Pakistan. If the driver is Pakistani, I say Pakistan, but if the driver is from India or Bangladesh, I say India.)

an open door to some very interesting histories

(1) "Oh no, we don't believe in Halloween. Or Valentine's Day. You see I'm an Indian Muslim."
(2) thick South African accent
(3) She's 35, and she's married to a 53 year old man.
(4) She referred to her husband in more paternalistic terms

INTERESTING??

Err, umm ... really, avoid people on the bus.

Hmph. Wow, "lurker", what a stud you are to 'tell it like it is'. Anonymously. Does it feel good? Yeah, give yourself a pat on the back from me, ok hun?

Fucking tool.

And I didn't know you had to be a writer to share a story. Oh snap. I can't write either. Quick, somebody shoot every single person that has ever prompted me to share a story on this blog!

Moving along...

Whatever the reason, I realize that sometimes as annoying as the question "Where are you from?" can sometimes be, just sometimes, an open door to some very interesting histories.

Seriously. That's exactly what I meant here. I used to hate that question; I thought everyone who asked that question was jerk who simply had to be making all kinds of assumptions about me. In hindsight, I realize that I myself was making [the worst] assumptions by thinking that way. Now I see that question as a chance to educate and be educated.

It's all in how the question is asked. I think "What are you?" is ALWAYS an idiotic question. And I can't be the only one annoyed by the grammatical incorrectness of the question "What [nationality] [race] [ethnicity] are you?" But I think that the questions "Where are you from?" and "How do you identify?" are totally acceptable if they're asked in the spirit of humble curiosity.

(1) "Oh no, we don't believe in Halloween. Or Valentine's Day. You see I'm an Indian Muslim." (2) thick South African accent (3) She's 35, and she's married to a 53 year old man. (4) She referred to her husband in more paternalistic terms

INTERESTING??

Err, umm ... really, avoid people on the bus.

Dude, how is that not interesting? Everyone has a story. It's always worth it to hear people out, even if you end up deciding that he/she is a whack-job.

mr. lurker and waddup.. let's see your ass get up to write something for everyone to read... yeah? didn't think so...being anon, and hiding behind not even an email address..is just so damn chivalrous it makes me want to vomit..i don't know if your mothers have had the ability to teach you, (that or common sense) that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all)), and also, if you are being critical to others, whether it be their writing, or anything else, there are tactful ways of doing so... I HOPE TO GOD both of you aren't in a field of work where you deal with human beings, because that from what i read from above is pretty telling you both would be completely DISASTROUS... 'maam you have cancer and are going to die... too bad'...

i've met some of the most interesting people on plane rides to lines at the amusement park...

everyone has a STORY...
everyone.
it just depends on how you perceive it..and what you learn from it..
and what you make of it personally...
and different things interest different people...different situations affect a person differntly..
that is what makes the world go around.

not every piece on SM is going to please everyone.
there are things i like to read and other things i don't..
but i'm not going to say, 'THIS SUCKS'
1. it's really disrespectful and hurtful
2. just really tactless
3. and simply just really mean

but come on folks--and lurkers...and waddup
it takes courage to post a piece on here..
from how you are perceived to your so called writing style and intrepretation of events..
for that i give a huge kudos to all the writers out there..

taz: thanks for sharing your story.
god speed.

Tazzy Star, maximum respect. Thank you.

When it comes down to it, these are the stories I really care about. The stranger on the bus, the unexpected glimpse into another life, another reality...

The bus journey ends, but the brief interaction continues to resonate.

I'll second what chickpea had to say! I have to concur with your subject, too, taz; I don't believe in Valentine's Day. I think there may be a cultural-identity issue there for more old-school immigrants. I, myself, just happen not to believe that St. Valentine existed. Sts. Cyril and Methodius, on the same day, are much more historically interesting. Love letters? Faugh! They invented a major alphabet!
That said, I enjoyed this piece, Taz, I like hearing your narrative.
Did you get a sense that Hallowe'en was somehow evil? My grandfather, a Mangalore fundamentalist, certainly did. He thought that dressing up as a ghould beckoned the devil. I wonder if your subject had the same leaning.

Good story, Taz.

I found two of her statements pretty interesting:

"Oh no, we don't believe in Halloween. Or Valentine's Day. You see I'm an Indian Muslim."

She had been born in South Africa. They had lived there for 10 generations and she really missed it

How do South African Desi Muslims whose ancestors went to South Africa before partition all end up referring to themselves as Indian Muslims? Is it because a lot of them went from Gujarat/Western states which remained in India?
The Urdu speakers from North India who migrated to South Africa also refer to themselves as Indians. If their ancestors had stayed in Delhi/UP there is a good chance that they would have migrated to Pakistan. But they refer to themselves as Indians anyway.

...yet the Indians in Fiji refer to themselves as Fijians, don't they? Can someone unravel as to why South Africa, & Fijian identity markers differ?

Nice piece, Taz. The two interesting points, to me, were in how necessary seemingly innocuous yet politically loaded questions such as "Where are you from?" are, and in how much people love to talk about themselves. Bus and plane rides are also always interesting times to brush up against someone else's life, the random meeting and usual lack of consequences make frank discussions about ourselves liberating. Thanks for the tale.

I rarely read SM these days, mostly because comments get so enormous and are often filled with pithy e-peen gestures, like Razib's frequent use of the terse "brownz" (sorry, buddy, I like when you post stats, but these one-liners do nothing to further a conversation) or people like lurker who feel compelled to voice their criticisms. Has SM started banning IP addresses yet? Because lurker seems like a prime candidate for such an action.

whoever encouraged you to share this should be shot. sorry taz...you are just not a strong enough writer to pull this off.

Hit me with your best shot, fire away.

Except that you're using a disposable address, and it's now banned. So talk to the hand.

I really don't have time for this isht these days ....

Musings is my favorite SM category, and I loved this post, Taz.
Interesting convo with teh auntie!

it really is mind-blowing to try to calcualte how many potential soulmates we brush past each and every day.... experiences such as this encourage us to 'stop and the smell the roses.' thanks for sharing.

But I think that the questions "Where are you from?" and "How do you identify?" are totally acceptable if they're asked in the spirit of humble curiosity.

a post on angryasianman 11.12.06 on the topic: Single Asian Female comic strip

I find myself having very interesting conversations with total strangers at least once a week. I guess that's one of the many benefits to living in a city with a public transportation system (plus I'm not female, so I generally don't have to deal with horny nutjobs). After the conversation, I often ask myself whether it would have been worth getting the person's contact information. On the one hand, it might seem a bit wierd to ask, and who knows if I would actually contact the person. On the other, a person who can keep you entertained for a 30 minute train ride probably has other interesting stories to tell. This is all a bit unrelated to the thread, so I apologize, but it was the first thing that came to mind after reading Taz's story.

I think the best thing abt SM are such stories. As someone who was was brought up in a very sheltered place (and not the USA), these stories really provide an insight to people who have grown up elsewhere...

I feel said for the lady.....loneliness is such a bthc.

And apparently we are never old/wise/mature enough to overcome it.

ok i know i am stating the obvious.

good post.

The points raised by Taz are pretty interesting but if SM will allow me to be a wee bit critical, I also think that Taz didn't come off as a 'strong enough writer' in this piece. As it is a blog, one can always argue that the mudda here is to SHARE and nobody is that interested in being a damn good (or 'strong') writer etc. However, having read many well-written posts on SM, we tend to expect excellent writings regularly. Every reader does that. You have every right to shoo me off saying that I am not paying a penny for the efforts that you put in and that I am being too sour for my own good but again, SM is more like an online communion and this is just my humble opinion.

I don't believe in poverty, hunger, or the tooth fairy. I don't believe in a bad war in Iraq, communal violence in India, or oppression of the lower classes. I don't believe in the nuclear bomb, Kim Jong Il, or that somebody is going to take my egg while I have my head in the sand.

I did like that Gods Must be Crazy movie though. That click language is good stuff.

for a moment, i saw the title as diarrhoea on the bus, and was intrigued enough to read. a quick page scan showed no trace of faeces, but the facetious writing made me read through again, carefully. thanks taz.

d

whoever encouraged you to share this should be shot. sorry taz...you are just not a strong enough writer to pull this off.

WTF! Nobody needs to encourage her to share. She shared because she wanted to and because she damn well can. Wake up under the wrong rock today? Jeez.

I enjoy conversations with strangers on occassion though as a NYker with already too much noise around me I crave solitude in the noisiest of places like the subway or bus. I generally avoid conversations except with the very old or the very young or of course the very cute and single.

I generally cringe at the "Where are you from?" question not for the "I'm from India" part which I have no problem with but mostly because I dread the long conversation that ensues from it. I don't feel the need to discuss it and perhaps because I lived in India for 14 years I don't feel the need to connect to strangers about my ethnicity.

If anything I crave conversations with old Americans because it's like a lesson in history and I'm big on American especially local history. Interesting, though both our goals are the same.

Bus and plane rides are also always interesting times to brush up against someone else's life, the random meeting and usual lack of consequences make frank discussions about ourselves liberating. Thanks for the tale.

The liminal space and time before one reaches a destination create a peculiar setting that reminds me of Fanon magnifying a moment, or ancient Greek art depicting not an actual event, but the moments right before the event, so that the reader/viewer must ponder the context of the action.

Transportation terminals are my favorite places to make connections with strangers. Everyone is on his/her way to somewhere else, for an infinite number of reasons. They're on their way, escaping something, seeking something, fulfilling an obligation... terminals are, in every sense of the word, the cross-sections of people's lives. Airports especially, because flying out of town/state/country can be a major life decision for people, and if you ever have the opportunity to find out where a fellow traveller is from, where he/she is going and why, you'll always end up with a few jems of information (if you're wise enough to appreciate a glimpse into another person's life). Who knows how your life can change with these encounters. 15 years ago, if you asked my terrified Indian mother as she waited on layover in Japan with my sister and me where she was coming from and where she was going, you'd never look at arranged marriage, North Indian familial relationships, the treatment of women, outsourcing and immigration the same way again - trust me.

Not to mention what an impact anonymity has on opening up the lines of communication. I don't know if the smartly-dressed woman sitting next to me is a trust-fund baby or a desperate woman about to be caught in a sex trafficking trap. I'm (mostly) free from the rules of hierarchy to treat that person as simply another human being.

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.
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btw Taz, a minor note about my previous comment: I just realized my saying "I can't write either" makes an unintended implication. Heh, I mean, I still can't write, but the point is you don't have to be some professional writer to write a thought-provoking post like yours here. So to echo BrooklynBrown, thanks darlin' :) And now I'm going to sleep so that I may be coherent enough to not make an ass out of myself again...

The points raised by Taz are pretty interesting but if SM will allow me to be a wee bit critical, I also think that Taz didn't come off as a 'strong enough writer' in this piece. As it is a blog, one can always argue that the mudda here is to SHARE and nobody is that interested in being a damn good (or 'strong') writer etc

Strong enough writer to be what? To write for the NYT? Quit being so damn critical!

Quit being so damn critical!

As Mark Twain said, Irony is not just what Ahmedinejad looks like.

I generally cringe at the "Where are you from?" question not for the "I'm from India" part which I have no problem with but mostly because I dread the long conversation that ensues from it. I don't feel the need to discuss it and perhaps because I lived in India for 14 years I don't feel the need to connect to strangers about my ethnicity.

JOAT...I cringe at it too because I find myself explaining how I am in Indian but was born and grew up in East Africa. Its not to deny that I am brown but to explain that brown people are like corn..they grow everywhere!

Nice post Taz. It reminded me of how excited I would get in my first few years in the US when I'd see an auntie with a sari on. The loneliness IS tough and I feel as if this woman you chit chatted with had made more compromises in life then decisions.

"My parents are from ..." seems to be a great answer to give to anybody who asks the "where are you from" question. More of you kids should be doing that. Instead of getting pissy. As far as you who are twice (or 10 times) removed from the motherland...
desi from ___ seems appropriate.

Taz, to answer your question, I don't "believe" in valentines* day. My wife grew up here. So I have been dragged, kicking and screaming, along this particular path of assimilation. Xmas is another one. In India, my Christian friends would give us cakes, so that was a good thing but this whole santa claus business just irritates me. As far as halloween is concerned, going from house to house begging for candy is not something I would have ever considered doing. Ever. But so was eating cold cuts of meat and yet here we are.

Some of us do want to go gently into that night. Others like these and these want to fight, fight, fight.

35 year old "auntie"? Ouch. This board must skew younger than I thought!

* Along with mother's day, father's day, secretary's day, hug a nurse day, bring your dog/daughter/son/child to work day etc etc etc.

This is a really interesting thread because of the title and how we connect to it. As ABDs we study Diaspora, we do things to stay connected to our culture, we visit the motherland, we "identify" ourselves with hyphens, but when someone asks us where we are from, we recoil and wonder if we want to have that conversation? Do people who have recently come to America feel this way too? Or those folks in other countries? I'd be curious to find out.

I also have felt this my whole life, people asking everything from "thats a nice name, what is your ethnicity?" to the very un-appealing "What are you?". I do wonder about the people who come for the first time to Amrika. Often just hoping to see a face that looks somewhat familiar, hoping to connect with people in a land of strangers.When I am here, I identify with seeing brown faces, thinking of my parents when they came here and didn't know a single soul and feared the loneliness of being away from family. When we first came here, my dad would meet other Indians at the supermarket and bring them over for dinner.

Surprisingly, when I was in India, if I saw another American (brown, white or other) I also wanted to connect with them. Interesting post Taz.

I don't "believe" in valentines* day. My wife grew up here. So I have been dragged, kicking and screaming, along this particular path of assimilation. * Along with mother's day, father's day, secretary's day, hug a nurse day, bring your dog/daughter/son/child to work day etc etc etc

The above response makes me cringe because somehow by stating the above it seems you believe you are inherently giving up something that makes you who you are and losing your culture. Taking on the fun factor of other cultures or countries especially if you live in it doesn't take away from what and who you are. I'm going to assume you don't have a child because it puts a lot of things in perspective for you when you raise a child in this country if you are this closed off to something as silly as Valentines day or Halloween.

JOAT...I cringe at it too because I find myself explaining how I am in Indian but was born and grew up in East Africa.

It's not even the stating I'm from India that bothers me it's generally the nosy conversation that stems from it. It's when people start talking about cricket and Lalu Prasad Yadav that I can't relate to. It's the same when I say American and the first line of converstion is Bush bashing. It's irritating. Again it's about perspective. From the old it's just inquisitiveness but generally you get the as Sriram puts it "horny nutjobs" who are just making bullshit conversation and I'm not interested in it.

I rarely read SM these days, mostly because comments get so enormous and are often filled with pithy e-peen gestures, like Razib's frequent use of the terse "brownz" (sorry, buddy, I like when you post stats, but these one-liners do nothing to further a conversation) or people like lurker who feel compelled to voice their criticisms.

your critique would have more force if you didn't act as if your opinion mattered that much :) (and sorry, i've generally found you to be a pretentious prig, how's that for unsolicited opinion?) i say "...brown" usually, not "...brownz," for the record. you can use the search box and check.

great post...who gives a crap about writing...i was sucked in/interested while reading, that's all that matters.

i love this line in the comments: people are like corn..they grow everywhere!

i'm gonna use dat! :-)

I never take offense when someone asks me where I am from, but I don't divulge much either. It's only been 2 years since I moved to USA, so initially I always went with "I am from Hyderabad" with fellow desis and "I am from India" with international people. I never had conversations about culture though. In school, it's more of a "What's your major" kind of discussion, I guess. I just moved to Texas from Ohio and, surprisingly, now I answer that question with "I am from Ohio" to desis and non-desis. I go on to talk about how I love the weather in Ohio and hate the Texas' heat, but never anything personal.

The reason why I am describing this is, I am sort of like the woman Taz talked to. I open up easily to strangers, but never about personal details. It's always weather or bad roads (wonder why everyone asks me this question when they learn that I am from Ohio??) or Buckeye football. Cab drivers, mostly african or desi, are the only ones who ask me about the Kashmir conflict or such like and interesting conversations ensue.

I wonder what it would be like if I was in India and I asked some foreigner where he is from? It'd be interesting to know about different experiences in my country. On the other hand, talking to desis in USA is like looking into a mirror. All of us have the same experiences, more or less.

It reminded me of how excited I would get in my first few years in the US when I'd see an auntie with a sari on.

Oh no, we don't believe in Halloween. Or Valentine's Day. You see I'm an Indian Muslim.

Interesting post, but I wanted to comment on this line specifically. I'm not quite sure what celebrating Halloween/Valentine's Day has to do with being Muslim, but it was always tricky for me to avoid heated discussions with aunties/uncles on my celebratory plans in regards to these two holidays. I've always viewed them with a more secularist eye, which confuses those who see them as pagan/haraam rituals. I'm not sure if those same aunties have simply never celebrated "Valentine's Day" because Uncle-ji is...well... just not buying into the American/commercialization aspect or what.

I don't really get what there is to NOT believe. And seriously, who doesn't 'believe' in Valentine's Day?

Thank yoooou. Bring on the calorie-filled chocolate hearts (which now apparently have a cardioprotective effect, may I add.)

P.S. Desi strangers asking you whether you're married or not? How cliche is that? "Sorry auntie, I'm actually into girls, and unfortunately same-sex marriage isn't allowed in my state."

"Sorry auntie, I'm actually into girls, and unfortunately same-sex marriage isn't allowed in my state."

Hahahaha love it whether it's true or not. That'll put an end to the conversation. In a particularly cheeky moment I once said to a lady "I need to find the right father for my children." She said "What happened to your children's father." I said "I don't really know who their fathers are." Yeah she actually physically got up and walked away hehehe.

I really miss public transport now.
Thanks Taz for the post......

Hey Taz,

That was a really awesome post. I used to always shy away from asking people about their backgrounds and I also used to avoid answering when someone would ask me. But I've found that I really like to hear about other people's lives because I think that everyone has an interesting story to tell. I loved this story that you uncovered. I'm sure that if she had stayed on the bus, you would have unearthed other gems.

By the way, keep talking and keep writing :)

Thanks kids for the encouraging words...

For the record - I do write quite a bit of narrative/poetry/spoken word (and I do identify as a 'writer'), I just don't do that kind of writing for SM. Here on SM, I saw myself as an activist first, writer second. I know that I don't have the skills to write as eloquently as anna, or grammatical as Amardeep - but I do have the knowledege/research one gains when organizing for the desi community - and my blog post topics on SM were each carefully chosen as a result. If it wasn't for ennis, i never would have cross posted this piece on SM.

Is it about being a strong writer, as lurker so wonderfully pointed out? Or is it about being a strong organizer, that writes on the side to educate her community? Sure, it'd be great to be both, but I definately see myself as the latter and hope that was recognized during this guest stint.

.....

Meenakshi had a good point. I totally would cringe at the question - but if I know I'm talking to someone desi, I'll always answer like I did with this woman, Bangladeshi. If it's an American, I'll say L.A. If it's an ABD, I'll eagerly go into the complicated family tree in a 5 minute story, and expect the same from them. As a 'progressive' ABD, I'm acutely aware of trying not coming off anti-'FOB' as I know as most ABDs tend to do- especially in the initial "where are you from?" phase.

I found an Indian Jewish kid in class yesterday! His dad is Jewish, his mom moved over at 17 from India. He identifies as jewish, more than desi, we think. But it was interesting, because instead of asking the usual "Where are you/your parents from?" he asked me pointedly, "Are your parents immigrants as well?" I'd never been asked that, and not sure how I feel about it.

South African Indians' community distinctions may or may not be analogous to other groups in the diaspora or in India. SA Muslims' not celebrating Halloween or Valentine's Day might not be some doctrinal statement, just the recognition that the holidays are the purview of some other community. Don't forget that fun cultural/historical investigations aside, Halloween and Valentine's Day are American commercial enterprises. No one in SA would know anything about them without the omnipresence of American culture and advertising.

Taz,

Don't listen to the one or two know-it-alls that have fallen out of some tree in a forest where no one hears them. The story didn't suck, and I want to read more from you. I've gone to writing school (not that this makes me an authority or even a good writer, but I have an opinion) and this post is ten times more interesting than much of what I read in my classes. It is not poorly written at all.

Thank you for sharing. It's a narrative, true to life. If only the literary critics paid more attention to the content. (Is it their duty to scare away potential bloggers?) I like the way you responded to the woman in "retaliatory" fashion--it opened a conversation.

Taz, don't bother about the trolls. Thoroughly enjoyed the post – and learnt something about you too. I thought your folks were from Hyderabad.

Taz girl don't even justify. No need.

No one in SA would know anything about them without the omnipresence of American culture and advertising.

Absolutely. It's usually not the "I'm from somewhere else and don't follow the local customs" mindset as much as the "I'm from somewhere elase and don't care for the local customs because I think they are foolish" that generally puts people off.

BTW will your lovely self be at the meetup Preston?

Why? It was no secret that I'm Bangladeshi!

JOAT: I was very resistant to the idea of xmas presents. My wife is into it. It is something that she had grown up with (along with valentine's and halloween). So I gave up my resistance because I didn't think this was a big deal. I had no problem giving gifts to children on xmas. I had (and still do) a problem with telling them that santa brought it for them. Or the easter bunny (or the easter chocolate bell in france according to David Sedaris). I did not come to this country as a young'un. I had habits and a belief system of my own and it was not easy to give up or to compromise. That was who I was. At that time.

All water under the bridge anyway. You missed the point. I didn't eat cold cuts in India. Now there is no meat I don't eat. And yes, I give cards and gifts (if appropriate) on the "days" of the year, presents on xmas, take my son trick or treating and hand out candy on halloween and if we are up to it, gather the family for thanksgiving (very rarely the turkey though, too much work).

Just going with the flow.

PS for Taz: If we put stuff out there for folks to read, we should expect some critics. The rest of the readers can learn something from constructive criticism. The operative word there is constructive. Pointless drivel from the likes of lurker should just be ignored.

Hey, JOAT. I'll be at the meetup late, after the OSU/UM game, which starts at 3:30. See you there!

Interesting woman on the bus. These things stood out for me from a good post,
even though 10 generations of her ancestors (250 years?? that is a long time) lived in SA,
1) she identified herself Indian Muslim
2) her desi accent
3) doesn't believe in informal western holidays(I am assuming SA is predominantly Christian)

If she is really from SA then the community she lived there must be very very close knit community which is maintaining its identity even after generations. It is very interesting

JoaT,

In a particularly cheeky moment I once said to a lady "I need to find the right father for my children." She said "What happened to your children's father." I said "I don't really know who their fathers are."

That's a very mischevious thing to say to an Aunty :)

I guess if you really wanted to kill off the situation, you could have supplemented it with something like ".....but Nisha and I are very happy together".

It would be hilarious if you bumped into that lady at a wedding or some other desi get-together at some point, and she turned out to be a family-friend of your parents.

Reagrding criticism: As somebody who has had a new one ripped for him by peer reviewers (and on a committee), I know of what I speak.

"Don't forget that fun cultural/historical investigations aside, Halloween and Valentine's Day are American commercial enterprises. No one in SA would know anything about them without the omnipresence of American culture and advertising."

i know christians - some american, some not -- who do not celebrate valentine's day and who see halloween as "evil" and worship of the "devil." so an aversion to them doesn't even have to come from an outside the culture viewpoint.

It would be hilarious if you bumped into that lady at a wedding or some other desi get-together at some point, and she turned out to be a family-friend of your parents.

The chances of that are slim to none hehe however it happened to me once. I must have said something terribly inappropriate to someone and it turned out she went and told my mom. My mother's response "You must have said something to her to make her say that to me." My parents are occassionally tickled by the silly answers. Not all the time but sometimes :-)

The chances of that are slim to none hehe however it happened to me once.

It might be a different matter if you lived in the UK. Sometimes it seems as though the entire Indian community in Britain is divided by less than 3 degrees of separation. I'm not kidding.

Gulab (34) and JOAT (35) - love BOTH responses.

Priceless!

| Why? It was no secret that I'm Bangladeshi!

Missed that one (I’m not that regular here). I think there might have been a post where you mentioned your mom’s Hyderabadi (like) chicken?? And so, the logical conclusion was that you must be from there.. ;-)

I found an Indian Jewish kid in class yesterday! His dad is Jewish, his mom moved over at 17 from India. He identifies as jewish, more than desi, we think.

He sounds like a HinJew, unless his mom was an Indian Jew. I'm not talking about cute hybrids where one parent is Jewish and one is brown, i.e. like our Siddhartha. :)

To clarify: I was excited b/c I met someone from one of the three historic brown Jewish communities-- and unlike the Jewish boy from Kolkota (whose Jews are Baghdadi and look it) whom I met at my best friend's wedding, the guest star of our DC Meetup actually looked desi. I still haven't found my "holy grail" though...a Mallu Jew. :) If I find him, I might just elope.

P.S. Desi strangers asking you whether you're married or not? How cliche is that?

I think that if you instantly wanted to scare such desis off (especially Uncles & Aunties), you could respond "Yes, I'm married to Jesus. Have you read the Bible ?"

I guarantee that'll very rapidly terminate the conversation.

Or, if you wanted to be extra-cheeky, you could respond "Yes I am but that's never stopped me before. How old did you say your son is ?"

after the OSU/UM game

:), and the bcs is back with trojans at #3...
we'll see what transpires...

crossing fingers. tightly.

The problem with telling Aunties and Uncles that you're a chick who digs guys AND other chicks is that they respond, "But why do you want to be a gay when you can be with a nice Indian boy"? I swear it's true; it even happened to Vikram Seth in an interview with an Indian magazine!

As a Gator fan, chickpea, I have discovered a great fondness for the Cal Bears. ;>)

If I find him, I might just elope.

Get married on the internet and e-lope

re: south african brownz, i know a chap whose parents are south african muslims. south africa is one country where islam and SES correlate positively among brown folk because the merchant class traditionally consists of gujarati muslims. in contrast, the hindus were more prominent among indentured laborers (of course, many indians have converted to christianity, especially among the tamils). anyway, gujarati muslim plutocrats have a close working relationship with higher ups in the ANC, and my impression that they are a somewhat snooty community because of their perceived higher status vis-a-vis other brownz in south africa.

Get married on the internet and e-lope

Dude, I'm sure it will be liveblogged. ;) We'll totally webcast it.

am I the only one who asks: Taz you took a bus in LA? I real live, orange and white one with people on it? Living in LA, I've never had the luxury as public transport is HORRID. Kudos to Taz for getting off the freeway and giving me one less car to wait behind on the 405...and for her honest, real, palpable writing.

I was thrilled when I read yuor blog entry. I love picking up conversations with people I randomly meet anywhere. I will admit to being an extrovert by nature ( which probably is why I will talk to anyone). I draw a lot of flak and admonitions from family and friends about how dangerous this can be. The stories I hear are never earth shattering - is never a solution to world hunger or violence but I am usually amazed with how much people open up. There is something liberating about telling total strangers you are never going to meet again about how much you resent things in your life and how much you have to be thankful for. Of course there are times I am bored ( but I have perfected the art of listening but not really listening :) ). But most of the time I walk away having something new to think about.

No von Mises

"...yet the Indians in Fiji refer to themselves as Fijians, don't they? Can someone unravel as to why South Africa, & Fijian identity markers differ?"

While I can't speak on behalf of all Indo-Fijians, I think it's just easier to identify myself as Fijian when asked where I'm from by other brown folks. If I respond Indian, then it's followed up with, well where in India. My family goes back 3 generations in Fiji. So it's easier to not have to say, well you see my aji (paternal grandmother) is from here, my aja (paternal grandfather) is from there. . . .

If asked by non-brown folk I say Indian, because saying Fijian . . .well try it sometime and see how eyes light because "i've never met anyone from Fiji before"

i ran into some old dude the other day and when i told him my last name he was like, "common name in fiji." he'd just been on vacation.

Taz you took a bus in LA?

saira: she did indeed.. she told me when she took it..and i myself was flabbergasted (being a LA native..)
it was like being told that the sky is polka dotted.. taz had car troubles.. hence public transport was the way to move...

As a Gator fan, chickpea, I have discovered a great fondness for the Cal Bears. ;>)

Thanks taz that was a nice piece. I can totally relate to it. There is always something to learn about someone or yourself on public transportation. Don't listen to loosers like "lurker", I don't think they get the idea of a blog

Taz you took a bus in LA?

is it really that bad? i've never been to la but figured it was just an exaggeration ....

how many la people took public transport to the last meetup?

is it really that bad? i've never been to la but figured it was just an exaggeration ....

how many la people took public transport to the last meetup?

it's like asking.. are people in france rude if you can't speak french (well it has been true in my personal experience).. public transport in LA sucks.. compared to chicago, dc, nyc, even the atlanta marta has some benefit.. and don't get me started on the bus system...never rode one in LA.. and after the movie 'speed' who would want to ride in one? (i'm being sarcastic.. )

i can bet 1000 cans of garbanzobeans that nobody took public transport to the meetup in LA (and taxi's don't count).

you live by your car.
you die by your car.
even if you're stuck in standstill traffic on the 405 freeway.

i can bet 1000 cans of garbanzobeans that nobody took public transport to the meetup in LA (and taxi's don't count).

But "builder" biked from the Westside to downtown! On the westsiiiide public transportation is good. In other enclaves it is good also. The problem is inter-enclave transportation. Back when all this was being planned out the MAN wanted to keep all the communities apart in their own socio-economic areas.

i have friends in LA who at one time happened to live near an express bus that took them to their downtown jobs, and for a time they often took that bus rather than drive. but those sorts of exceptions only confirm the general rule. the bus ridership in los angeles is 98% working class, african-american and latino. driving past a bus stop and seeing who is waiting (and waiting and waiting) provides a real powerful snapshot of socio-economic stratification.

But "builder" biked from the Westside to downtown!

abhi...doesn't count.
that is self transport ;)

Chickpea, the Big Blue Buses (Santa Monica) are pretty good for travelling in West LA/Santa Monica area. But i haven't been able to convince myself to take Metros so far. Having lived in Boston and NYC before, i miss the T and Subway so much :(.

Abhi

On the westsiiiide public transportation is good.

Siddharth

the bus ridership in los angeles is 98% working class, african-american and latino. driving past a bus stop and seeing who is waiting (and waiting and waiting) provides a real powerful snapshot of socio-economic stratification.

Back when all this was being planned out the MAN wanted to keep all the communities apart in their own socio-economic areas

Yeah the MAN tried that here in NYC. Eventually it became a very unpopular idea. The peoples of LA need to REVOLT!

Taz, I love reading narratives about everyday encounters. Thank you for sharing this piece. To echo Mr. Kobayashi's comment:

When it comes down to it, these are the stories I really care about. The stranger on the bus, the unexpected glimpse into another life, another reality...

Hell, yeah.

I'm Muslim, too, but have no problem with Halloween. HIGHFIVE, Taz! (Oopar paanch! as my friend says.) And thank you to Travis for the Single Asian Female comic strip link, above. I hate it when people can't tell the difference between nationality and ethnicity; it's amusing to watch people's faces when they ask me, "What nationality are you?" and I raise an eyebrow and deadpan, "American," or the disappointed look that ensues when they ask, "Where were you born?" and I reply, "Berkeley."

What's with the fascination with Indian Jewish guys? I thought you were Christian?

Go Bears! Go Berkeley! Go Maggi Noodles!

Its mostly ABDs who ask me 'where are you from'?
Most 1st genners can pretty easily place me as Goan when they hear my last name, but it throws most 2nd genners and other Americans for that matter for a loop!
I have a very uncommon 1st name , which apparently in the US is a name that's mostly associated with the Af-American community !And my last name is Portuguese ..
try explaining that one on the bus..!!

e.g Hi, I'm Tyrone D'Cruz (not my real name).
response:
FOB girl from Bombay : Hey I'm from Bandra too
ABD girl : Wha !!..are you Indian?

Chickpea, the Big Blue Buses (Santa Monica) are pretty good for travelling in West LA/Santa Monica area. But i haven't been able to convince myself to take Metros so far. Having lived in Boston and NYC before, i miss the T and Subway so much :(.

i'ved lived in boston and dc...and SF...bart, the T, the L in chitown, the london underground, the subways of nyc are superb...

LA public transport is horrid..

haven't taken the big blue bus... took the chick pea mobile instead.. :)

There's an assessment of buses and race in LA in the movie "Crash." The guy who steals the SUV says that the huge windows on buses are there so the passengers can be seen and humiliated--and kept in their place.

Most 1st genners

one of the great things about SM (one of many) is that it informs us 1st genners about the diversity within brownistan outside of our parental (literally) regions. e.g., most indians are not vegetarian, south indian hindus excepting malayalis often marry endagomously, white is not always the color of death, etc. etc.

took the chick pea mobile instead.. :)

:)

Please, sir, what does 'endagamously' mean? Oxford English Dictionary online doesn't seem to have it.

Taz,

I loved this story, thanks for sharing.

Somebody please shoot "lurker" for being here.

Ennis, thanks for encouraging Taz. It really takes a lot of talent to write something so often that appeals to most people.

try "endogamously" ;)

p.s. taz: today i had 2 people ask me where i'm from....

in line at subway sandwich shop..one of the patrons asked me.. and had no clue when i asked him to guess... he's a hospital translator and thought it was weird since i didn't speak my mother tongue to the worker making the sandwiches..(she was bangladeshi, i am guju..diff languages ;))... since he said with his central american heritage, he sees more interaction with native tongue (his personal experience) in his culture...when they recognize each other.. interesting observation from his viewpoint...

then a patient asked me...later on...
she guessed... hawaii...then somalian... huh?
told her i was from the motherland like my attending who couldn't stop laughing..
she told me i could be a spy.

spy vs. spy.
mad comics.
good old times and days.

There's an assessment of buses and race in LA in the movie "Crash." The guy who steals the SUV says that the huge windows on buses are there so the passengers can be seen and humiliated--and kept in their place.

i love public transit. i loved when the lights went out in toronto a few years back... we came together... and i loved when there was the sars scare... we still used public transit... cities are reflective of the people who live within and who one can live with. i love my city. :_)

i love my city. :_)

i always make people laugh when i say.. if i was ever kicked out or deported from amrika, TO is where i'd sprout to...in an instant..

Whoa! I didn't know endogamy meant the fusion of two female gametes! The next time my mom says it's "morally wrong" to be a lesbian, I'll tell her that South Indians typically marry endogamously! Hehe that'll set her straight. Thanks razib and A N N A! ;)

LA and that part of Ca scares me for sentiments such as the above. you can see the mansions ... and the castles on the hillsides ... and on the others these empty warehouses, broken windows, rusty frames, barrels, ... on the one side a desert, on the other sprinklers going on at 3 p.m. in a blazing hot afternoon to water a lawn the size of a football field... it is surreal.

the dichotomy from one street to the next is really shows the differences between class, and race in LA... it's a very 'foo foo' culture... esp west LA... very sheikh, upper class...

it is surreal...
not very pretty..
but the suburbs are home...
when you get further inland.. it becomes more 'real'...and less distinct.

the dichotomy from one street to the next is really shows the differences between class, and race in LA

It's the same in NYC too and perhaps most major cities. Harlem and the Upper East & West side are literally one block apart. It's the same in Jamaica Queens where Hillside Avenue separates Jamaica Estates to the north and it's $1M homes and the working class and run down neighborhoods to the south.

OP:

"Where are you from?"

I've come to hate this question...I always try to segue into something else when asked this...

OP:

"Or Valentine's Day. You see I'm an Indian Muslim."

Hasn't everyone figured out by now that Valentine's Day is an abomination/creation/collaboration of the greeting card/florist/chocolate industry?

#1

you are just not a strong enough writer to pull this off.

actually it was nice to see Taz do a different style of blogging instead of her usual journalistic-approach - haven't read your other writings. Thanks for sharing.

The conspiracy theorists will note that this is the 2nd post to get flack for writing recently(the other was one from Anna). Are the women being held to a different standard?

#2

(Though I'm not always fully honest. This is more of a defense mechanism to avoid unpleasantness. One parent is from India, other is from Pakistan. If the driver is Pakistani, I say Pakistan, but if the driver is from India or Bangladesh, I say India.)

I'm in the same boat as you, but since I have little respect for one of those 2 countries (just like KXB though for different reasons), I always say I'm from the other. With the current "fear" climate blanketed upon us by the governmental-powers-that-be, I generally shy away from revealing much of anything to strangers. You never know when someone might take something you say the wrong way...

#16

so I generally don't have to deal with horny nutjobs

Is there not a such animal as a female horny nutjob (perhaps minus the nuts)?

#21

except with the very old or the very young or of course the very cute and single.

I hope all those groups are mutually exclusive!

#54

He sounds like a HinJew

Reminds me of the Russell Peters segment when he's combining ethnicities.

It's the same in NYC too and perhaps most major cities. Harlem and the Upper East & West side are literally one block apart. It's the same in Jamaica Queens where Hillside Avenue separates Jamaica Estates to the north and it's $1M homes and the working class and run down neighborhoods to the south.

This is true JOAT, but it's not like harlem is that dangerous a place these days. I remember the burnt out buildings, drug dealers, and crime of the '70's and in comparison (anecdotally speaking), harlem is striving these days. i understand many US inner cities have enjoyed a renaissance since the 80's. My gym is in harlem (the gyms are much bigger up there and they have boxing rings and everything) and i just came back from there as i type and am happy to report the place is bustling with commerce and everyone looks more than well-fed.

in fact, speaking of queens, i just happened to drop by corona the other night and i found the place to be absolutely charming. It's a mexican and dominican neighborhood with a lot of immigrants living in these tiny packed houses. there are no $1M mansions but the place is far from poor. there's an element there- bums and alcoholics- but the houses are well kept, there are plenty of very expensive cars, and the nightlife was bustling...which is why i was there. after some bar-hopping, i commented to a friend that if i were a smart real-estate speculator i'd buy property here rather than the overvalued manhattan. the bar owners were certainly making money.

i don't know what you guys are scared about.

This is true JOAT, but it's not like harlem is that dangerous a place these days... i don't know what you guys are scared about.

The conspiracy theorists will note that this is the 2nd post to get flack for writing recently(the other was one from Anna). Are the women being held to a different standard?

Of course we are. No need for conspiracy theories, it's been like this since the beginning of this blog, despite what a certain misguided, disingenuous commenter might have erroneously thought.

I dont know what the fuss is about. I actually like the 'where are you from' question a lot.In fact I m offended if a stranger browno doesnt ask me that.

From BrooklynBrown here

like Razib's frequent use of the terse "brownz"

Then replied razib above:

i say "...brown" usually, not "...brownz," for the record. you can use the search box and check.

These are the results from just the first page of the search for the word "brownz"...(7 hits on the first page)

here

taz, thanks for using the term brownz.

and here

i appreciate you using the word "brownz."

and here

"true brownz speak bengali!"

and here

amen riz! brownz is even in wikipedia!

and here

from the numbers, it looks like about 1 in 10 brownz

and here

brownz in the USA are not poor.

and here

non-hindu brownz abroad...i have asked other brownz

I didn't really feel like going to the next page and onwards...

but it's not like harlem is that dangerous a place these days. I remember the burnt out buildings, drug dealers, and crime of the '70's and in comparison (anecdotally speaking), harlem is striving these days. i understand many US inner cities have enjoyed a renaissance since the 80's.

Definitely. I think Clinton setting up office on 125th did a lot for Harlem and it definitely is not what it used to be. But the upper east side is creeping up slowly and a slow gentrification of Harlem is taking place where it's making it impossible for the lower income groups that traditionally live there to afford living there and they are being driven out. Old landlords are selling properties by the blocks to big builders. Look at how many luxury doorman buildings are north of 90th street now where they weren't merely 10 years ago.

i commented to a friend that if i were a smart real-estate speculator i'd buy property here rather than the overvalued manhattan.

That's whats happening in Long Island City right now. All these builders that bought abondoned waterfront lots along with old factories and warehouses are being torn down and luxury condos are going up. I debated a lot with myself when I bought my place about buying into that area because in another 5 years it's going to be like Hoboken/Jersey City and will go up in price. Unfortunately the infrastructure is still lacking in LIC and the area where the luxury buildings are going up isn't exactly safe for a single woman. But I'm telling all my guy friends to buy there. That is where the next Queens boom is.

Corona for the most part has a lot of old history and the community is constantly replenished with new immigrants because it's a haven for new immigrants. All those folks that lived there in the 80s have long since moved out to Nassau county. It's one of those communities like Jackson Heights and Elmhurst that will continue to have it's rich old heritage of immigrant history but will not really rise above it to make it investment worthy.

I dont know what the fuss is about. I actually like the 'where are you from' question a lot.In fact I m offended if a stranger browno doesnt ask me that.

I probably get that question more often in India than in the US. It is one of the two things a desi absolutely has to know about another, the other of course being 'what do you do?', ie, your profession.

It is one of the two things a desi absolutely has to know about another, the other of course being 'what do you do?', ie, your profession.

Hahaha true true. That's a pet peeve of mine! That question usually allows for so much tomfoolery though I love it. And it's usually from a desi professional. In NYC what you do professionally is such a moot issue compared to all the other things people do. Everyone is doing 3 other things on the side and probably far better than their professional job so I find the whole "what do you do" business disconcerting.

There are far better ways to size someone up and take them to task ;-) ie asking about their political party affiliation or what their favorite show on NPR is or if they like the Mets or the Yanks. All very tricky questions.

It is one of the two things a desi absolutely has to know about another

this is an american thing, right? seeing as how large numbers of brown people in the homelands are illiterate....

It is one of the two things a desi absolutely has to know about another

this is an american thing, right? seeing as how large numbers of brown people in the homelands are illiterate....

Illiterate people have jobs too...
If you go to a village in India, these are the first two things they'd ask. If they think you are too young to be doing anything useful, they'd ask what your dad does(no, never the mom ;) ) ....

It's not just brown people:

Amy: What do you do? Marty: I work at Kentucky Fried Chicken. I sell biscuits and gravy all over the Southlands.

[Practicing in a mirror before his high school reunion]
Marty: Hi. I'm, uh, I'm a pet psychiatrist. I sell couch insurance. Mm-hmm, and I - and I test-market positive thinking. I lead a weekend men's group, we specialize in ritual killings. Yeah, you look great! God, yeah! Hi, how are you? Hi, how are you? Hi, I'm Martin Blank, you remember me? I'm not married, I don't have any kids, and I'd blow your head off if someone paid me enough. [Link]

Hmph. Wow, "lurker", what a stud you are to 'tell it like it is'. Anonymously. Does it feel good? Yeah, give yourself a pat on the back from me, ok hun? Fucking tool.

I've been thinking about this all day. I almost didn't know how to reply, but I knew I had to come back and speak up, because upon reflection, I think a lot of the things being said about my comment are unfair and I want to clarify my intent.

Before I do that, I want to apologize to Ennis, someone I respect and enjoy as a blogger. I did not know you were the one who encouraged Taz to post this but that's not important, my comment would've been vastly improved if I hadn't included the first half of it, since my intention to be constructive (though sharply honest) would've been more obvious. I am sorry. I also want to apologize to Taz, because it is hard to put yourself out there and I had no right to discourage that. I could have said what I did in a much better way and for that I am sorry.

Having said that, I am not a troll. I am not a "fucking tool". I am a regular reader (since fall '04) and mostly a lurker. I commented anonymously because I didn't think to not do so, at that early hour. I have nothing to hide and quite honestly, I don't understand how it changes anything to include my email address with my comment, but I have done so now, since that is apparently what is required in this club's bylaws.

That's right. Club. That is what this website is turning in to, since it is obvious that valid criticism is not welcome. I would've appreciated and agreed with complaints that I was less than tactful, but the personal attacks and knee-jerk outrage I could've done without. There is a climate here which prevents any disagreement or deviation from the prevailing sentiment. The number of you who leaped to Taz's defense and defended her awful prose are proof of this. The blogger has no words, to paraphrase a famous sentence about royalty. Taz is not a strong writer. She is an activist whose work should be praised, but that has nothing to do with her ability to communicate as a blogger. Separate the two, because even she is aware of how they are different things. I don't know if she or the rest of you are aware that one doesn't immunize her from the other. I'm an excellent cook, that doesn't mean I would ever pretend that I'm a writer, nor would I throw such a non-sequitir out there if someone attacked this comment.

Historically, Taz's entries have always had issues, from a writing perspective. I have often wondered if she bothered reading them before publishing them, they read that poorly. After exactly two years of reading this site, I would confidently say that in my obviously reviled opinion, she is the worst blogger to ever be featured here. The last sentence of this very post would've aided in proving this point of mine, but I see that in the last day, this has been edited aggressively and the use of the word "sometimes", which if I recall correctly occurred three times in the final sentence of the original version, has been addressed as has the mangled formation of most sentences. That's fine. But I know what I read last night and I know what I've read for months and that is what I reacted to-- and that reaction is something I have a right to. If you write for a blog, especially in this style, you do open yourself up for constructive criticism. Not personal attacks, ungrateful words, misogyny or anything else besides sincere feedback. Absolutely, or at least I would hope that is the case.

And I didn't know you had to be a writer to share a story. Oh snap. I can't write either. Quick, somebody shoot every single person that has ever prompted me to share a story on this blog!

As painful as this is for me to type, yes, you do have to be a writer to write a good story. That's just logical. This is a blog which, once upon a time (especially before Manish left/Amardeep became a father/Anna...I don't know) was known for outstanding writing. This also is not about you or your comments or what you have shared here. I don't know whether or not you can write and though I don't mean it cruelly, I don't care, because you don't write for this blog. Your skills and your argument are irrelevant, but I appreciate all the attitude with which you commented, I do.

To reiterate: I am sorry that I offended so many good people on a blog I like, but I will not apologize for having an opinion and wanting to share it. If there is a next time, I will phrase my words more carefully, but in the meantime, I hope that people can learn that not everyone who comments anonymously is evil and that yes, it is okay to disagree.

To reiterate: I am sorry that I offended so many good people on a blog I like, but I will not apologize for having an opinion and wanting to share it. If there is a next time, I will phrase my words more carefully, but in the meantime, I hope that people can learn that not everyone who comments anonymously is evil and that yes, it is okay to disagree.

Original Lurker, thanks for this. Speaking only for myself, I would comment that the problem is not commenting anonymously; the problem is when a comment is both anonymous and toxic. As you realize, your comment was toxic -- specifically the first sentence. Constructive criticism, as you have said, is absolutely part of the process here and is welcome and indeed expected. Toxic is not constructive, and when toxic comes from an anonymous handle, it's even less constructive, because it means there's no off-thread way for, say, the blogger to answer your point and perhaps try to elicit what is constructive within it. Instead it becomes a whole tamasha on the thread, as happened here, and that does everybody a disservice.

On the question of writing style/chops and personal narrative, there's actually a very interesting discussion to be had, if we can step away from specific people and posts. Clearly, a strong personal story that is written in unintelligible fashion, loses its strength. And a weak or trivial story will be weak or trivial no matter how felicitously it is written. Moreover, holding a narration to a particular standard of writing quality can result in deterring the person from telling the story, which is a terrible outcome when there is a story begging to be told. So, we should step back from absolute judgments, and err on the side of being nice, while at the same time sharing our critical opinion. Positive energy helps to shape positive outcomes.

Peace

To "what the evidence shows" @ 99:

BrooklynBrown's criticism (go back and read it) was of Razib's ONE-LINE comments that go as follows:

...brown.

BB quoted these as "brownz," Razib answered that no, it is "brown." That Razib uses the term "brownz" with a "z" as a plural noun in many of his comments, is something we all know.

As I was saying earlier, it's far better to be nice. When you go out of your way to dis someone, you risk not only wasting everyone's time, but also falsifying the facts, at which point, you dis only yourself.

Moreover, holding a narration to a particular standard of writing quality can result in deterring the person from telling the story, which is a terrible outcome when there is a story begging to be told. So, we should step back from absolute judgments, and err on the side of being nice, while at the same time sharing our critical opinion.

Word.

To the original lurker -

reaction is something I have a right to. If you write for a blog, especially in this style, you do open yourself up for constructive criticism. Not personal attacks, ungrateful words, misogyny or anything else besides sincere feedback. Absolutely, or at least I would hope that is the case.

I don't have a problem with being criticized. I don't think Taz does either. The issue is one of constructive criticism. You see, when somebody is harshly negative, it is not only hurtful to the target, but it changes the tone of subsequent comments, and the entire thread can spiral down hill.

I appreciate that you took the time to express yourself in a more clear and constructive fashion. I wish your original comment had been more in this vein earlier.

Instead it becomes a whole tamasha on the thread

I know someone who isn't going to appreciate that phrasing :)

Seriously dude/tte, in what parallel universe would the line:

"..sorry taz...you are just not a strong enough writer to pull this off." be considered constructive criticism?

This is AFTER deleting the crack at the promoter (as it turned out Ennis).

If you had taken the time you took in your second comment the first time around, the argument would have taken a whole different tone.

Original lurker,

I respect your returning to explain yourself. I think the standard of writing on this blog is high. No, it's not Hemingway, it's not Tolstoy. But, heck, who is? I see nothing but spelling mistakes on the NY Times and the BBC. I come here for the freshness, for the personal take, for the directness. I understand that blogging is something that happens on the fly.

What you refer to as a "club," others view as a community. What that means is that disagreement, especially over trivial things like prose style, should be civil. Respect others, show some tact--see for example your dig, again, at the bloggers in your penultimate paragraph--and don't get too dramatic a sense of your "rights." The reality is that most of these bloggers are smarter and more accomplished people than most of us are. Yes, it's true. That deserves some respect. And they put it out there daily. Double dose of respect.

You don't have to like what you read here. But neither do the bloggers have to put up with aggression.

I also want to apologize to Taz, because it is hard to put yourself out there and I had no right to discourage that. I could have said what I did in a much better way and for that I am sorry.

Apololgy not accepted.

If I have to go through 4 hours of writing/editing and a mutineer/editor for each post, and am still open to criticsm (yes, I do change posts often based on kindly editing readers that contact me via e-mail) and a hundred comment deep, you yourself find the need to EDIT your own comment? Kind of... ironic?

Nu-uh. Not forgiven.

Historically, Taz's entries have always had issues, from a writing perspective. I have often wondered if she bothered reading them before publishing them, they read that poorly. After exactly two years of reading this site, I would confidently say that in my obviously reviled opinion, she is the worst blogger to ever be featured here.

There is a difference between demanding well written fiction or a report on something and communicating a personal narrative. A narrative need not follow any strict path of proper communication simply if the story is strong and a reader identifies. I think you are out of line to imply that Taz needs to have some prescribed way of writing that might appeal to you in order to come across as a strong writer. And you are wrong obviously because she managed to conjure up a discussion and relatable experiences. That is what maks a good blog post irrespective of how it's written.

As a person who considers herself a writer and is very well aware of my shortcomings I have literally thousands of comments over years of writing that prove to me over and over again that a story is far far more important than how it's communicated. Touching someone positively and negatively with your writing is incredibly difficult and far more important than crossing your t's and dotting your i's.

Frankly I don't think you understand what constructive criticism is. You were simply being mean spirited. Even if you eliminated the first sentence there is nothing constructive about telling someone their writing sucks and you have nothing more to add to the criticism. One liners don't beget any respect especially when they are nasty. You might learn to better communicate yourself before you post one liners to put someone down. It isn't about being part of some "club" it's about basic manners and respecting the space you share with others.

BB quoted these as "brownz," Razib answered that no, it is "brown." That Razib uses the term "brownz" with a "z" as a plural noun in many of his comments, is something we all know.

Actually, Siddhartha, the brown/brownz distinction is, to me, tangential. My point was really a complaint from someone who's unable to read SM at work most days, that reading often informative comments on interesting topics can be made laborious when some commenters choose to either spam terms like brown or choose to attack the thread author. The first is insulting to other readers, and the second, which has been happening frequently -- especially to the women of SM -- is insulting to the author. Neither progress the thoughts of the piece, and both come across to me as e-peen expressions, often from men.

I'm writing about it now because if the orginal lurker is suggesting a standard for posts, there should be a standard for comments as well. I know that I'd be one of the first people to say that in the past, especially when I first started posting on SM, I haven't met that standard at all, but I'm trying to be better about that now, when I do comment.

Peace y'all,
The Pretentious Prig

Actually, Siddhartha, the brown/brownz distinction is, to me, tangential.

I know. That's what makes the comment from "What the record says" even more ridiculous.

1) if you really do have a constructive criticism, you can take it back channel. e.g., i find the header at pass the roti distracting. it makes me hungry, and i'm watching my weight, so i emailed saurav and told him that i thought it was a distracting header and the reason why.

2) if you don't like the quality of posts, you don't need to read it. if you have a concern about the quality of the posts, or the nature of the posts, see #1. step up and be a man/woman and contact the powers that be. don't leave a hit & run comment.

3) i don't comment here as much as i did in the past. that's probably because the posts don't speak to me as much, and the comments go in a different direction, etc. etc. etc. now isn't it special that i told you all of that? who cares. the time i spend reading and commenting on blogs is my own. same with you. leaving anonymous comments about how sucky a post is is kind of like leaving a turd on someone's doorstep because you don't like the new paint job on their house. you could write them a note, or talk to them about it.

4) the people who invest their time posting on this blog are investing a lot of time, and they have feelings, they're people. this blog has a lot of traffic, so it is kind of brave to stick their necks out like they do. i might not agree with them in terms of what they say, or how they say it, or what their priorities are, but i think it is important to give them their due. i'm a blogger myself who runs smaller websites so i can appreciate how much time this takes, and especially with such a large commentariat it must feel draining and overwhelming sometimes. i've already suggested that this blog doesn't speak to me as much as it did 6 months ago, but i'm just one person, and SM is a small part of my life. on the other hand, for the people posting it is a bigger part of their lives, and they put a lot of effort and emotion into it i suspect (i can gather this from talking to & knowing some of the principals). on the balance is it worth it to hurt someone's feelings to "right" the blog in the direction that you prefer?

5) manish has his own blog, called ultrabrown. if i miss his voice i can go check it out. i think that's a little better than leaving turds on people's doorsteps and calling it constructive criticism.

Original lurker:

I want to echo Kobayashi-san's sentiment, I respect that you came back, because to me that means you are sincere about your words and about wanting to be understood, even if you aren't flawless in how you go about doing that. I also think it showed class to apologize and I want you to know that I appreciated your comment even if others didn't. Putting your email there does change things, it makes you a real person and not someone who lives under a bridge; it also makes it "ouch" a bit less that you included me in that second-to-last paragraph of yours. Your mentioning my infrequent posting made me think about a lot of things, especially you. After a little while, I had an epiphany.

Since you are real to me now, I want you to know that I feel compassion after reading this thread, b/c I can just imagine that "tone" is something you have a problem with and that you might be often misunderstood and that might be what is happening to you right now, right here. I know what that feels like and I know it can make you feel lonely. That's just a nasty beginning to a vicious cycle which exacerbates the situation and makes it even harder to express your real self successfully.

And yet, I know the other side all too well: if anyone is an expert on sepia-flavored haterade, it's me, since more of it has been aimed my way than anywhere else. I guess what I am poorly trying to say (hence, my compassion) is that I actually agree with parts of what you said and I'm kind of touched that you came back. I want to encourage positive behavior like that...I don't want it buried in a landslide of retaliatory negativity. I want us all to feel like we can change and be better mutineers. When someone apologizes, that is an opportunity for grace and a moment when change is so very possible. I say it to all lurkers, especially at meetups, but I hope you comment again. Not anonymously, of course. :)

Lurker,
I'm sure you've had your fill today. Good that you came forward with your second post. I hope you got what was missing from your first post. It was more a personal attack with no constructive criticism.

Now back to the post. I found it interesting that the SA woman identified herself as Indian muslim after being 10th gen. Can't imagine 10th gen person in US to identify themselves as ethnic whatever. More melting here eh?

For me, in the beginning I used to enjoy the 'where are you from' conversations, but no so much any more. I'm generally bored with the conversation - its basically the same with minor variations. I'm not interested in seeking their personal info, and not interested in divulging mine. I've tried the 'I'm from SFO' type responses; don't fly. They want to keep digging 'cos my accent doesn't explain away SFO or whatever.

A few times I've had the feeling of not being welcome too. Very recently we were sightseeing in CO hinterlands when we chanced upon a nice pastoral scene. Also saw a couple of older people painting. I walked over to check out the painting that an older lady was doing. Admired it, verbalized my admiration... She asks inevitably - where are you from? Ok, I try my SFO line. nope. Where are you ORIGINALLY from. *sighs inwardly*. India. What do you do? 'work with computers' I say. Now she says - SFO is not India!
Well, this could mean anything, however, her tone and the way she said it seemed to say - you don't belong here. I excused myself and am on my way.

Like I said, I'm tired of having to say where I'm from.

I've tried the 'I'm from SFO' type responses

You're from San Francisco Airport?

Like a lot of other issues that are talked about on SM, I simply cannot identify with this. I've never had a problem with people asking me where I was from. It's never been a loaded question for me that makes me aggressive and/or defensive. I've never had a problem with people using words like spice/exotic/elephants and what not while referring to India/Indians. The list goes on. It's days like this that I begin questioning my "brownness"...well, maybe not.

the "where are you from" question also sets me spinning, mostly because i can never give a precise answer that i'm content with. there's an older gentleman who is going through early senility who lives down the hall from me and EVERY time i see him, he forgets that we've met before and we go through the same question/answer session: what's your name/how do you say it/ where are you from/ no, where are really from/ what's the best indian restaurant in town.

i say i'm from cali, he says, no where are you really from. i say well my parents are from india and HE is content, but inside my head i'm like, uhhh i'm just saying this so i can get over with this conversation as soon as possible, but what's really spinning in my head is, well technically both sides are from lahore pre-partition, but then i'm like no, technically my dad's side is from a village out there but had moved to the city and my mom's side is from peshawar and had moved to the lahore, but then i'm like well technically they were up from kabul but had moved down to peshawar and before that, they had migrated from their village down to kabul. so with all this internal rambling, the question "where you from" makes me feel like my family's been migrating for a longg while but not necessarily all of it has been crossing official borders, so for me, more often than not, this question is often an exercise in providing a convenient quick answer.

also, anna (# 119), i really admire your generosity of spirit that you come forth with all of us strangers. you are a great example of how to community build person-at-a-time. yay@you!

27

...but when someone asks us where we are from, we recoil and wonder if we want to have that conversation? Do people who have recently come to America feel this way too?

Like a lot of other issues that are talked about on SM, I simply cannot identify with this. I've never had a problem with people asking me where I was from. It's never been a loaded question for me that makes me aggressive and/or defensive.

I've never had a problem with people using words like spice/exotic/elephants and what not while referring to India/Indians.

Re: Razib's "brown" posts.

Post #99 by "What the evidence shows" was unnecessary and vindictive. As someone who has also been on the receiving end of that sort of thing once or twice on SM, where people come out of nowhere and say "Jai obviously thinks X, and here's the smoking-gun evidence", followed by out-of-context links to long-forgotten comments on threads from many months previously, that kind of behaviour strikes me as ridiculous and pretty small-minded. It's not only a highly opportunistic way to self-righteously jump on the cyberlynching bandwagon, it also makes me wonder exactly how such people actually have the time for such petty behaviour.

In case the matter needs clarification for those who are not frequent visitors to SM, Razib's occasional single-word posts where he just writes "....brown" are an ongoing joke. He's just kidding. It's because myself and a couple of other people here have humorously accused him on previous occasions of having an obsession with the term "brown" and dropping the word into his posts at every conceivable opportunity. Which is why Razib randomly posts that word on various threads now and then. Again -- it's just a Sepia Mutiny inside-joke.

I can guarantee you that we celebrate Valentines Day with the same zeal in South Africa, believe me, high school in SA on Valentines Day is the same as high school in US at Valentines Day. Halloween is another story, but my mum did say that her gym was decorated for Halloween this year, so maybe it’s catching on. It could be the lady on the bus was from a very traditional family therefore had a ‘Jehovah Witness’ kind of sensibility. I liked the post Taz, light and interesting. BTW I always have people tell me my accent is very English and therefore easily understandable, I have to do a survey, is my accent thick…..

What you refer to as a "club," others view as a community. What that means is that disagreement, especially over trivial things like prose style, should be civil. Respect others, show some tact--see for example your dig, again, at the bloggers in your penultimate paragraph--and don't get too dramatic a sense of your "rights." The reality is that most of these bloggers are smarter and more accomplished people than most of us are. Yes, it's true. That deserves some respect. And they put it out there daily. Double dose of respect.

But what kind of community? I think some people use this as a message board of the old internet, and other people use it as a community site in the newer internet style. I think that leads to a lot of the difference in tone. For example, my tone jars with the tone of people who use SM as a community site, and who contact each other backchannel and such. I appear totally tone deaf in that circumstance, and as a result I would actually say I feel pretty uncomfortable as a community member here. But thats understandable to me.

I use this forum as a message board where the ideas of the message board apply, its all pretty much left on the comment board, and the level of expectation of interaction is much more limited. I think there are other people who probably use the comments section in a similiar way. But I think the result is a lack of connection with the other, frankly more interactive style of communication. It probably behooves people to use the site in the community-oriented way, as otherwise one begins to look like a e-peen character. The style of a message board writer is more like grafiti than the cocktail conversation metephor that guides the community-oriented style. More bombastic and less interested in back and forth, but also with a certain elan.

Just something to consider however, that some of the people who use this site and appear to be tone-dead may not be, and in "real life" much more gracious or personable then they appear here.

I have to do a survey, is my accent thick…..

Ennis! Funny guy. Ha.

If there were an Amelia I could be Viktor Navorsky!

I have no problem with the "where are you from?" question and ask it often myself. However, the burden is then placed on the asker to follow up the response with something interesting and relevant. It's a valid conversation starter and like most starters (e.g., fine weather we're having today, don't you think?) the idea is to build tangents off a starting point until you get to some place interesting. Quite frankly, having a problem with "where are you from?" comes off as possible insecurity about identity.

Sahej #128, interesting analysis which may explain the background behind comments which I think of as "trolls." I just thought those were people with no sense of courtesy.

It is interesting to me that lurker's second comment hit most of the right points about constructive criticism vs. hateful comments, and yet lurker's idea of what is constructive criticism vs. my idea of such are apparently totally different!