Well, I seem to remember being taught in med school that erection was something of an, er, equalizer in terms of size/breadth variation........

a world-traveler friend of mine would confirm this cross-culturally....

Some fun facts:
-The bird with the longest recorded penis is the Argentine Blue-bill.

-The barnacle is the creature with the largest penis as a proportion of its overall body size.

-"Whales...hold the record for having the largest penises. A fact which they never fail to mention at parties, by the way. In large Rorqual whales the penis can be up to 10 feet long, with a diameter of up to one foot." [link]

If you are a male living in a hierarchically organized social system, a gorilla harem for example, then copious amount of sperm production or a long penis does not increase your chances of producing progeny. Your ability to prevent other males from sexual contact with females, by force or intimidation, positively influences your chances of reproductive success. Gorillas retain a diminutive penis and testicle size. Human males evidence sexual anatomical characteristics suggestive of a promiscuous social structure (Wilson & Daley, 1992). There are exceptions such as the asian highly stratified river/irrigation cultures who have had a highly hierarchical, patriarchal, monogamous social structures for thousands of years (Miller, 1994). [Link]

In short, it isn't the size of your member but the size of the bat you use to beat down any dude that looks your woman's way that matters :)

The penis of the male tapir is very long when erect. The tapir has the one of the longest penis to body size ratios of any animal. The specimen of tapir believed to have the longest penis ever observed is currently on display at the Koenigsberg Zoo. [Link]

I've seen one of these. It looked like a fifth leg. I mean the thing literally swept the ground.

More details from TOI:

The ICMR had requested Indian Institute of Technology in Delhi to devise ways to measure an erect penis. "We had devised an automated system in which an image of the penis would be taken and the computer would interpret different dimensions," said professor of biomedical engineering, IIT Kharagpur Sujoy Guha, who headed the project. However, this was later discarded for a simple paper-tape that was found to be more practical.

Wow, that project would look good on any grad school resume.

Some fun facts:

size equals pleasure. NOT.

sperm competition. interesting topic, though i plan on never doing field research :) (no doubt some of you have already without being asked)

Well this is intersting! In defence of all the wonderful passionate brown men, its not the size of your wand, its the magic you produce with it! All the girls love Hari Potterjee.

From my very personal experience, Indian-American men definitely tend to be on the larger side. Perhaps its all that McDonalds?

Emigration leads to changes in diet and other health factors, which results in changes in body type.

Keeping the hope alive?

From my very personal experience, Indian-American men definitely tend to be on the larger side. Perhaps its all that McDonalds?

straight up, what's your N? your p-value less than 0.05?

In short, it isn't the size of your member but the size of the bat you use to beat down any dude that looks your woman's way that matters :)

What about aluminum vs. wooden? I'm insecure as it is, so I want to make sure I have the right equipment.

I admit nothing, but hypothetically, my N=10, across many different races. Although my Indian N=2, my conclusions are substantiated by what my friends have seen in their exploits.

Sorry to say, but your girlfriend's best friend probably has an idea of your dick size.

Something tells me this is going to be a very long thread

"Penile Length in the Flaccid and Erect States: Guidelines for Penile Augmentation"

Wessell et al. The Journal of Urology, Volume 156, Issue 3, Pages 995-997

FYI.

Something tells me this is going to be a very long thread

60% of Indian men have penises which are between three and five centimetres shorter than international standards used in condom manufacture

3 to 5 centimeters? while that may be interesting statistically, the real-world implications are almost meaningless.
in real space that is this much distance: |---|

honestly, that shouldn't make that much different in condom fit.

sigh. like i can post the bad-soft-porn version of the friday55 NOW...you know, there's only so much of this a girl can take.

Sorry to say, but your girlfriend's best friend probably has an idea of your dick size

But does she know about shrinkage

sigh. like i can post the bad-soft-porn version of the friday55 NOW...

do it! do it!

this is the most emailed article on BBC, and #2 and #3 on Yahoo News. God-damnit! this is totally reckless journalism

international standards

Go for it Anna, let Christmas Horniness run rampant!

From my very personal experience, Indian-American men definitely tend to be on the larger side. Perhaps its all that McDonalds?

straight up, what's your N? your p-value less than 0.05?

N=2; my indian father and my indian american little brother. And no, I don't see them when they p, so no p-value.

The small-headed boffins at the ICMR are in cahoots with the feebly endowed Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi! Clearly, now that we have the nukular agreement, they want to emasculate us! Spoorlam? Please?

Over 1,200 volunteers from the length and breadth of the country

TGIF.

I desperately need Sin to weigh in on this thread.

if i buy a shirt in india, i am a large. here i buy medium or even small. there is something to it.

yeah...we americans are FAT.

I wonder if this takes into account that most people in india aren't tall as ABCD's. (no play on words here). I don't know if it is nutrition or what, but compared to my parents, I am like a giant, and compared to my cousins back in india, I just seem to be larger. (again NO PLAY ON WORDS HERE)... I don't know, just a thought!

yeah...we americans are FAT.

I guess the question to ask is how large are the balls. I once saw a thatha leaning over in kerala once, and the jewels peeked down from under his lungi. we got something going there i tell you.

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/061208/photos_od_afp/d94f1095cc44258a7afdafb8a81bc3c4

what are the dudes thinking = "shayad mera itna bada hotha"

Why do Indian companies have to follow "international" standard when manufacturing condoms. KS is the most preferred brand in India. But Nirodh is the most available. And i am pretty sure they are both manufactured in India.

condoms made according to international sizes are too large for a majority of Indian men. …

We are all South Asians now.

how much of the penis is adipose tissue?

bone, it's all bone.

indian men use condoms??

Why do Indian companies have to follow "international" standard when manufacturing condoms.

Something tells me this is going to be a very long thread

Are you saying that thread length is inversely proportional to that the desi d*ck? @=)

Spoorlam? Please?

He was right all along...the Abrahamics, leftist-pinkos, and Arundati Roy have stolen our saffron balls!! Only Narendra Modi can save us now!

you know, there's only so much of this a girl can take.

Y'know, there's a off-color joke that could be made in response to that comment, but that would be far too childish for me to do. Far, far too childish.

"As per international standards, most condoms are 150 mm to 180 mm in length and 44 to 56 mm in width. But data collected in Mumbai till 2001 showed that 60% of the participants measured 126 to 156 mm in length and 30% between 100 and 125 mm."

What is the sample size. Mostly these samples might be from people frequenting sex workers. People who frequent sex workers are mainly migrants.

Ok i hereby conclude this is a baseless conclusion made by some immature statistician based on samples from Mumbai ALONE. Come on. Then why do they put "Indian men". It should be Mumbai Men.

are we the smallest? :( :( What happened to "all men were created equal" and all that :)
How are saffron balls doing beneath the "peepal", I remember GNXP had something on variation in their size too? I don't remember the details.

look, i tried on a NIRODH condom for kicks once when i was 12 and was scarred for life. true i had not reached my full manhood yet but i tell ya those govt. manufactured things are HUGE! i guess the idea is to err on the side of largeness when in doubt. there is a greater risk of breakage/spillage etc if a small condom is used on a big ding-dong than the other way round. in the economics of one size for all
it made sense for them to be big. and at 3 for 25 paise (back in the day) people weren't arguing. but the thing was so thick that i almost couldn't blow it into a balloon.

These 60% of Indians must have forsaken the excellent Vedic practices that can enhance the dimensions of the lingam. Witness the Kama-Raja (Lord of Love) Herbal Penis Enhancement provided on the internets that
enhances release of metabolic energy to "warm the loins".

But wait! It is also made in Lubbock, TX. Because everyone knows, its bigger in Texas.

I'd be curious to know if the "test group" included any stars from Bollywood...

These 60% of Indians must have forsaken the excellent Vedic practices that can enhance the dimensions of the lingam.

I dont know why, but I read that as foreskin

have they done studies in other countries, including the ones that "set" the international standards, to see how many men actually "measure up" to those standards? and how is this international standard set?

We can always follow the reverse logic of women's dress sizes. We can just call a six the new eight.

I guess we need Taj Badalandabad now.

have they done studies in other countries, including the ones that "set" the international standards, to see how many men actually "measure up" to those standards? and how is this international standard set?

Exactly. look at post 39. According to slate they concluded based on findings from mumbai alone.

Y'know, there's a off-color joke that could be made in response to that comment,

well, i'm glad SOMEONE is paying attention.

Who sets the international standards, I'd like her job!

Then why do they put "Indian men". It should be Mumbai Men.

Phew, looks like I don't need to buy me a Hummer.

This is my logic:
* General nutrition has a important part to in human development.
* Since 35-40%of the people in India live in poverty
** Assumption, people in poverty tend to be malnourished
Question: How malnourished do people have to be before things are under developed
Even if there is some affect, this would skew the real average compared to the theoretical average. etc etc etc What is the median?

I think there is a case to be made that this can't be generalized to all south asian and is specific to India for the above logic. Perhaps this is a vain attempt .. haha

ovaltine, why don't see survey the local ladies with some N > 10 under their belt?

i think that the govt. of india should get the best statisticians we have (and we have many) hire a A-1 lobby group and put a spin on this and set the record straight. this is too wierd -- all of a sudden we're a nuclear capable nation with small dicks. maybe we have the deepest yoni's? come on we need something!

Siddharta said

I've seen one of these. It looked like a fifth leg. I mean the thing literally swept the ground.

or, we could survey the dudes and renormalize by dividing by 3.

i'll go first, i have a 21 inch cock.

well, i'm glad SOMEONE is paying attention.

I could write, oh I don't know, 55 55's on bad-soft-bookporn today. This discussion is such a fertile ground for all the bad puns that I have kept under the covers for the eight years since high school.

What's with all the Indo-centric comments? Shouldn't it be South Asian men? There's a topic that people can discuss across borders. Or does a Punjabi from Pakistan feel he is in a better position than a Punjabi from India?

Or does a Punjabi from Pakistan feel he is in a better position than a Punjabi from India?

foreskin counts, so don't count on it.

PLEASE PLEASE say it ain't so!

Or does a Punjabi from Pakistan feel he is in a better position than a Punjabi from India?

Excellent question. Research must be conducted immediately. Either Sin or I will get right on that.

Witness the Kama-Raja (Lord of Love) Herbal Penis Enhancement provided

ultimately, i think the point is.. the penis is not really a sexual organ - as long as there is the appearance of festivities, it doesnt matter if there is procreation or not.

Everybody knows- Size don't matter. It is all in the performance ;-)

3 to 5 centimeters? while that may be interesting statistically, the real-world implications are almost meaningless. in real space that is this much distance: |---|

oh! CENTImeters. i misread that as millimeters.

i stand corrected.

The diminutive Punjabi penis is lamented in folksongs sung by Punjabi women; I've heard them at mehndhi parties too (Amitabh, back me up on this.) Given that Pakistanis are disproportionately Punjabi, I would say they are in the same boat as the rest of the brownz. I will not speak to the Bengali dick.

This sucks.

Not only are we among the hairiest guys around but now we'll also be known as having small penises. Couple this with my extraordinarly long nose, and I've lost before the game even began!

:(

race & penis size.

It should be Mumbai Men.

Good point. Maybe should even be limited to the area in Bombay and the class, religion and age of those men. With no evidence whatsoever, I sumbit that the sample included a disproportionate number of Hindu Gujjus from Byculla between the ages of 20.5-20.6 who suffered extra shrinkage from all that Bombay pollution. They have NOTHING (zip, zilch, nada) in common with us well-adjusted, well-fed, far-away Americans (not to speak of well-adjusted, well-fed, far-away Indians).

Let the furious differentiating begin. Screw all that South Asian unity garbage!

ovaltine, why don't see survey the local ladies with some N > 10 under their belt?

or maybe your 21 incher is flat like a tapeworm and you keep it spooled up... har har har.

Forsake the Foreskin

"Not only are we among the hairiest guys around but now we'll also be known as having small penises. Couple this with my extraordinarly long nose, and I've lost before the game even began!"

hey, napoleon was short and reputed to have a very small penis and he's still a topic of conversation for other reasons, including bedding beautiful women. don't despair :)

desitude said

I will not speak to the Bengali dick.

This sucks.

:)

Not only are we among the hairiest guys around

No problem - I can vouch for this

Either Sin or I will get right on that.

;))

hmmm...maybe that's why the kama sutra is from india, to compensate for other "short" comings??

Not only are we among the hairiest guys around but now we'll also be known as having small penises. Couple this with my extraordinarly long nose, and I've lost before the game even began!

p.s. i am enjoying this thread majorly. keep it up guys.

FYI. Many local brands used to import condoms from other Asian countries. Govt. heavily subsidized them. Hum do humare do and all that. It's a family planning slogan for those not raised in desh.

Questions.

"The scientists even checked their sample was representative of India as a whole in terms of class, religion and urban and rural dwellers."

"Over 1,200 volunteers from the length and breadth of the country had their penises measured precisely, down to the last millimetre."

I admit I am terrible at math but isn't India's population around 1,103,371,000 and over 1,200 means what? Now the population being estimated around 1,103,371,000 obviosuly taking out women and children is there not still an extremely large adult male population? And could it not be possible that there is a generalization being made about the MAJORITY of Indian men? Or is there some sort of mathematical or statistical formula to calculate the penis size of the majorty of men using a sample size of say 5000 Indian adult males ? And does it account for a multitude of variables? Can anyone give some answers?

Enough with the length, can we move onto width/breadth/circumference now?

I just don't know what to do with you people. Foreskin totally doesn't count, the Punjoos are pretty decently hung, and most of the desi men I've been with tend to have been on the smaller side of my statistical sampling, but even there I've had some (un?)pleasant surprises. That is all. Anna and I will return with more in-depth (and lengthier) research later on.

I will not speak to the Bengali dick

I think one of my ex's said that to me.

Years back when I was in India, I believe it was Mysore and I was visiting the Mysore Palace (hey I am a tourist) at one point I had to sit down and put on my shoes, which they made us take out (I hate that, even when I have to do it at peoples houses!) and some local, instead of going past me, stepped over me, I chose the worst moment to look up, he was wearing one of those skirt things, lets just say that it firstly scared my fragile 19 year old mind, soap people SOAP, and also it wasn’t much to write home about.

What about the girth????????

Either Sin or I will get right on that.

A N N A, you are just digging yourself deeper

Findings may be average, but extremes are interesting too. If this dude knows what he is talking about: mumbai mirror (ask the sexperts)..there is hope for macacas!

ahhh here is the enrollment and the SOS of the study
:)

"length and width of the male organ in different parts of the country could help bring down the 15-20% failure rate of condoms because of breakage or spillage".

James, the original population size does not matter. The p-values (measures of how accurate the statistics are) depend mainly on the sample size, given that the population size is large enough. That said, the analysis is accurate for the bulk of the population if and only if the samples are chosen uniformly at random. The Bombay-bias is definitely an issue in this study. Kudos to the commenter for pointing that out.

If I were a manufacturer deciding on a one-size-fits-all condom size, I would pick a size to the right of the normal curve. So of course the condom would be larger than the average size (ahem) member.

he was wearing one of those skirt things, lets just say that it firstly scared my fragile 19 year old mind, soap people SOAP, and also it wasn’t much to write home about.

oh my god... :-)) I have a friend who had EXACTLY the same experience. Except that he got a whiff as well - and he says he still has nightmares about that.

(Amitabh, back me up on this.)

Desitude, I haven't come across particular songs like that but I'm not surprised they exist...but all these "naughty" wedding songs are just meant to be kidding around (I think!).

A N N A, you are just digging yourself deeper

and how is that a bad thing? DEEPER is good. if we can prove DEEPER, we debunk this entire clusterfuck. now hush, i am attempting to conduct very important research on punjabi males (indian ones--sin is on top of the pakistani punjabis) and i'm totally behind.

Oh Lord. Gawker is on the case now too. They are running an interview on member size with Ex-Intern Neel Shah. The terms "Taj Mahal" and "chutney bottle" are employed.

Funnily enough Anna, I'm totally behind the Punjabi males too. ;)

and i'm totally behind.

nice

ps. I am a punjabi male

it's been my experience that lighter-skinned south asian men are more well-endowed than darker ones.

and i'm totally behind.

:)
god, i'm regressing this friday afternoon...
there are so many ways we can intrepret this..
thanks for the laughs.

it's been my experience that lighter-skinned south asian men are more well-endowed than darker ones.

Troll alert!

Just to make sure that comment was for ANNA and not SIN..

whew!!

Not to worry. I'm also planning to be on top of this entire issue, even if that means I have to start with Former Gawker Intern Neel.

Funnily enough Anna, I'm totally behind the Punjabi males too. ;)

That actually means you're a top.

I'm not making any representations here, but remember that gorgeous gay word-of-the-lifetime, "versatile".

well... rasputin was rumored to have a giant dong. but later tests revealed it was a root of some kind.

are we having fun yet?

The terms "Taj Mahal" and "chutney bottle" are employed

They also use the term 'Curry Dick'. How charming.

i'm betting 500 comments by 5pm est.

it's been my experience that lighter-skinned south asian men are more well-endowed than darker ones.

Troll alert!

Sadly, not. I just checked the IP and this person is a regular, albeit a new-ish one.

Not to worry. I'm also planning to be on top of this entire issue, even if that means I have to start with Former Gawker Intern Neel.

Gawker Intern Neel is getting raked over coals because of this.

it's been my experience that lighter-skinned south asian men are more well-endowed than darker ones.

I have never seen or mmm...experienced anything that supports this!
Welcome back ChickPea, did you gather any data from India to support this topic? :) hee hee

Why can't India embrace vanity sizing a la Jean Paul Gaultier?

What do desi women (or gay men) think?

As a gay South Asian, I can inform you that this new study is lies. My personal research has demonstrated that my penis is larger than every white penis I have seen.

Sadly, they're short in other departments as well:

The average length of foreplay by British men was 17.44 minutes. This was 13.98 in India, below the global average of 15.78. [Link]

I'm not making any representations here, but remember that gorgeous gay word-of-the-lifetime, "versatile".

Versatile, eh? I believe the trendy new American jargon is top, bottom and switch. Tell us, daahling, which one are you? ;)

So how exactly is a standardized measurement obtained, given that the size variation between a flaccid and an erect member can muck with the data. Or is it an erection on demand ? "Khada karo ise!!!" Maybe visually assisted ? I need to find out how this was done.

I bet they scheduled a free porn screening in a makeshift theater with surveyors moving around around within the rows. Man...im gonna make a movie out of this someday where the surveyor tells his story.

"Bilaspur ka ling-naapak" (Penis measurer of Bilaspur)

Im sorry guys!!...its a Friday.

I don't hold with these newfangled terms. Especially BDSM-related ones! Some things are meant to be discovered, not discussed.

Well, at least not without substantial amounts of wodka and vine.

Welcome back ChickPea,

thanks CR

did you gather any data from India to support this topic? :) hee hee

;)...

Some things are meant to be discovered, not discussed.

Well, at least not without substantial amounts of wodka and vine.

It's a good thing there is an LA meet-up next Friday in that case.

JFC! How effin embarassing...who the #$%Z decided to release a press report thats so...well sensational. This just plain effin sucks. Some bihari suffers from baby #$#@ syndhrome and the whole subcontinent pays for it.

"Bilaspur ka ling-naapak" (Penis measurer of Bilaspur) Im sorry guys!!...its a Friday.

it's been my experience that lighter-skinned south asian men are more well-endowed than darker ones.

Quite the opposite for me, but I wouldn't dare assert that the way you just have; I know that my experiences are just that. I've dated North and South and the three men who thoughtfully kept Tylenol by their bedsides next to the Magnums were Malayalee, Tamil and Malayalee, respectively. The three smallest were from Delhi, Kerala and U.P. It's unbelievably stupid to assert that one region of India is going to be more well-endowed than another. There's a range everywhere.

I don't hold with these newfangled terms. Especially BDSM-related ones! Some things are meant to be discovered, not discussed.

Well, at least not without substantial amounts of wodka and vine.

Arrey yaar, we're all a little BDSM.

Based on my (unscientific) research, this is not true. At least not with the Indian-American species of male. The smallest I had was a Caucasian male, the biggest a desi male. And, of course, girls do talk, so I know that at least two of my friends have desi boyfriends who need the extra-large variety of condom.

Fear not my hairy, big-nosed desi boys, we girls know better...

whoa, 120 already. u guys got it up fast.

u guys got it up fast.

was it viagra or cialis?

whoa, 120 already. u guys got it up fast.

Of course we did, aren't you familiar with the "Rise of the Taj?"

Is this some sort of record for speed with which a thread crossed 100 comments? I leave my computer for a couple of hours and people are going nuts. A can of "worms," indeed.

was it viagra or cialis?

Viagra is the ED drug that is most preferred by Bob Dole... ;) (haha couldn't resist)

Or the thread could be a jar of snakes, depending on whether you believe the study.

brown pythons united.

howzthat for the name of a football club.

drrrttty poonjabi ;), we're on the same wave 'length'..

and yes, i call 500 comments by 5pm EST today...

don't let me 'down' ;)
or caverject use may be of use..

Guys, sorry for the minor threadjack, but I have a relevant question, given the fact that desi umm.. dimensions dont always match the caucasian ones, does anyone have a specific brand to recommend for condoms?

So, where does the international standard come from?

Probably why some of us macaca's worship the Shiva Lingam ;)

Guys, sorry for the minor threadjack, but I have a relevant question, given the fact that desi umm.. dimensions dont always match the caucasian ones, does anyone have a specific brand to recommend for condoms?

Trojan?

this explains the size of the kelas in US and the kelis in india

dimensions dont always match the caucasian ones, does anyone have a specific brand to recommend for condoms?

Are you asking about smaller sized condoms? And where are you located?

There is no way this is statistically accurate, between the sample size and the way people are self-selected in for measurement.

Perhaps men who volunteer to have their penises gauged have a harder time 'measuring up'? :)

dont have an answer to you #129, but there was an interesting discussion on the best condoms a while back. look it up for some brand names etc. all the best. rock and roll - in the original context -

Generally, I just go with the seemingly inexhaustible supply that they hand to you whenever you check your coat at Club Kali. I almost felt like I had something to prove by the end of my time in London.

Almost.

Guys, sorry for the minor threadjack, but I have a relevant question, given the fact that desi umm.. dimensions dont always match the caucasian ones, does anyone have a specific brand to recommend for condoms?

The one invented by an Indian of course. :)

Typical Indian men; totally consumed with themselves. ;-P

Now, let's discuss why they won't do what we women would like them to do in the bedroom... or not.

Ok, this is embarrassing..hmm, I am in the US and having some issues with the pill, so hubby and I need to go the condom route for prophylactics and are now lost among the myriad choices available, looking for direction..we are both desi..did not know before that it mattered while choosing prophylactics before, but apparently now it does..

How does this type of research even get funded?

Anyway, I uh, never knew this was even supposed to be a problem with Indian men...

now lost among the myriad choices available, looking for direction

Ah, the American-supermarket-breakfast-cereal dilemma now applies to condoms as well. Don't feel lost -- just try a variety on for size and see which ones you like best. No need to fret while ogling the colourful displays in the pharmacy.

It is with great dismay that I am reading some comments from female (?) posters talking about their experience with desi penises. I hope you all are not having sex with these boys. I am guessing you are married. Yes, that's the only possibility. Good desi girls wait until suihaag raat.

Ok, this is embarrassing..

ok peeps, help the lady out. i'm out. time to make some money.

#142: I hope you all are not having sex with these boys

Arey no yaar, they were only mens-underwear-tailors. Hence!

Quite the opposite for me, but I wouldn't dare assert that the way you just have; I know that my experiences are just that. I've dated North and South and the three men who thoughtfully kept Tylenol by their bedsides next to the Magnums were Malayalee, Tamil and Malayalee, respectively. The three smallest were from Delhi, Kerala and U.P. It's unbelievably stupid to assert that one region of India is going to be more well-endowed than another. There's a range everywhere.

I certainly wasn't "asserting" that any region of India was more well-endowed than another. I was giving my observation on this topic as it relates to other topics previously discussed in the same fashion that you shared your personal, yet quite opposite from my own, experience.

Comments should stop at 4pm. It's Friday, use the extra hour to wash behind your ears. There's some debunking (and bonking) to do.

Collar down is the new collar up.

Buy small packs of a couple different sizes and have him try them on. That's about the best you can do...

It's not JUST a measure of length. Sometimes even an average length condom on an average organ can be loose or too constrictive depending on the other dimensions.

http://www.indiansareasian.com/chart.html
Guess the "Have huge penises" row needs to be re-evaluated.

The penis is a sponge that gets filled up with blood -- it's not a muscle, bone, or hunk of fat. If poor nutrition is the cause, then it's affecting the size of the spongy tissue or how well blood can flow into it & stay there. From most penis size studies, it seems that the standard deviation for length is ~1 in., so malnutrition would have to deal one heck of a blow (...) to the guy's penis size to make it that much shorter than expectation. So I don't think this is what's going on.

The uncertainty could be resolved by checking penis size of South Asians in GB, who have first-world nutrition and are much taller than their parents (although these are mostly from NW S.Asia). If it turned out that there was something specific to the environment in S.Asia that made S.Asian penises smaller than in GB, I doubt it would be nutrition -- it would be the damage done by the basquillion germs endemic to the region.

use the extra hour to wash behind your ears

Or use the extra hour to metaphorically wash all your own mouths out with soap after all this smuttiness.

now lost among the myriad choices available, looking for direction

just try a variety on for size and see which ones you like best. No need to fret while ogling the colourful displays in the pharmacy.

right on...the only people who know what will work for them are the ones involved...try different brands/types, try male condoms and female ones, flavoured ones...have fun...make a weekend out of it :)

142. So now Draupadi is posting comments on SM?

need to go the condom route for prophylactics and are now lost among the myriad choices available, looking for direction..

my advice is to stay away from the "extended pleasure" variety.. ive had trouble using that and not being able to feel *Anything* down there!!! :-)...just the stuff of nightmares i tell you.

Siddartha, man...so much headline potential there, and you blew it (snicker).

Like, "Hard Times Ahead for Desi Guys."

or, "Brown Weenies Too Teeny for Beanies."

or, "You Can Leave Your Jimmy Hat On...If It'll Stay Put." etc, etc.

The title should read "Condoms too long for Indian men," not big!

Consider this: If the standard condom makes a man appear small, he is going to be inclined not to use it. Enter babies and sexually transmitted cooties stage left.

Also, I've decided not to pass on this desi headline to my family.

my advice is to stay away from the "extended pleasure" variety.. ive had trouble using that and not being able to feel *Anything* down there!!! :-)...just the stuff of nightmares i tell you.

Man, anything that involves putting anything more complicated than KY or spermicide down there makes me nervous. Like that "hot gel" stuff? Shudder...

now lost among the myriad choices available, looking for direction

and although I'm sure you've discussed this with your ob/gyn (or other provider), know that the pill is NOT your only option. I couldn't stand the pill, but the ring and I are great friends...

If you're looking for a place to find more info, take a look at the report I link to below. Although it is called "New Contraceptive Choices" this report cover all the old favorites, and was released in April 2005.

html; pdf

It covers:
Vaginal Rings
Transdermal Contraception
Contraceptive Implants
Combined Injectables
Condoms
Fertility Awareness-Based Methods
Oral Contraceptives
Intrauterine Devices
Transcervical Female Sterilization
Male Hormonal Contraception

Um, as someone whose dated the tall, broad-shouldered American-born desi corn-fed types ... it sadly ain't proportionate.

"Brown Weenies Too Teeny for Beanies."

I'm sure the New York Post has a position open just perfect for you.

You realize that this is all protectionism for indian protection.

Also, that condomania makes condoms to fit - they have a handy sizing chart that you print out (a pdf) and then you can order the length and width that is right for you.

No word on whether you can get a padded variety, like elevator shoes for those who are (ahem) not tall enough.

To quote Lou Dobbs: "You may take our jobs, but you may not take our women."

like elevator shoes for those who are (ahem) not tall enough.

or like padded bra....all just false advertising

Thanks guy for all the responses,the ring looks good, but am really looking for a non-hormonal device (my hormones are out of whack, just got diagnosed with an autoimmnune endocrine thing..), hubs is threatening to get the snip-snip if we don't make up our mind soon...sorry for the TMI guys..

Over 1,200 volunteers from the length and breadth of the country had their penises measured precisely, down to the last millimetre.

Heh heh. They said length and breadth.

Camille - I can't vouch for their sampling methodology (haven't seen how they randomized) but a random sample of 1,200 is more than (ahem) large enough to be accurate.

To be wonkish about it, what's unfortunate is that they're not reporting their standard errors. I want to see both a mean and 95% confidence interval.

To Not so embarrassed: My understanding is that many types of IUD don't involve hormones. It sounds like an IUD might be the right thing for you.....but you should ask a doctor!

To be wonkish about it, what's unfortunate is that they're not reporting their standard errors. I want to see both a mean and 95% confidence interval.

Doesn't matter anymore dude. The damage is done. The damage is done. Indian men haven't been this decimated so quickly since Malaria appeared.

From my person experience with my Punjabi-hubby -- his penis is glorious (in length and thickness).

looking for a non-hormonal device

IUD? natural family planning methods? Condoms are great too especially because they are OTC and easily available everywhere (I suggest that once you find a kind you like, you shop around the internet for better prices).

hubs is threatening to get the snip-snip if we don't make up our mind soon...

if you're done having kids, it would be the way to go :)

sorry for the TMI guys..

don't worry yaar, some of us thrive on TMI

Um, as someone whose dated the tall, broad-shouldered American-born desi corn-fed types ... it sadly ain't proportionate.

You've fucked all of us, I'm assuming...

Ra Ra Rasputin

Hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey (4x)

/ Am - Dm E / :

There lived a certain man in Russia long ago
He was big and strong, in his eyes a flaming glow
Most people looked at him with terror and with fear
But to Moscow chicks he was such a lovely dear
He could preach the bible like a preacher
Full of ecstasy and fire
But he also was the kind of teacher
Women would desire

/ Am - Dm Am / E - - Am / :
/ Am - - - / Dm - E - / Am - - - / Dm E Am - /

{Refrain}
Ra Ra Rasputin, lover of the Russian queen
There was a cat that really was gone
Ra Ra Rasputin, Russia's greatest love machine
It was a shame how he carried on

PS: They have writing songs like this in India for my family for ages

has the media really ever insinuated it?

You guys realize this means that PG was right?

Also, that condomania makes condoms to fit...

You guys realize this means that PG was right?

Noooooooooo!!!

3 condom sizes...Small, medium, and Liar.

"That's what she said." - Michael Scott

Welcome back CP. Speaking of condoms, I guess the Trojans burst under the pressure...ehh yea, good one.

There's a link to the Screech sex tape in case anyone's interested in a comparison of former child stars. It's alright....It's alright...It's alright cause I'm saved by the bell!

condoms made according to international sizes are too large....

there is nothing to it but we like it extra tight fit, btw, it comes uncut :)

Ennis forget padding. I provided a helpful reference from the Journal of Urology in #16 above. Not that I'm implying anything about anybody. Just being informative and helpful.

Some things are meant to be discovered, not discussed.

Well, at least not without substantial amounts of wodka and vine.

It's a good thing there is an LA meet-up next Friday in that case.

....Ahem??

;-)

Welcome back CP.

thanks ashas dad

Speaking of condoms, I guess the Trojans burst under the pressure...ehh yea, good one.

oh you had to rib it in eh? how we lost to fucla i will never know nor understand... rose bowl here we come (again)...abhi, it's blue vs the trojans.. :)

After the mirth had settled (this story has already been emailed as a fwd many times by many friends), the most important sentences in the BBC post was worth noting:

==
The issue is serious because about one in every five times a condom is used in India it either falls off or tears, an extremely high failure rate.

And the country already has the highest number of HIV infections of any nation.
==

In short, the implication is that there could be women out there who are dying due to the reason cited above. Maybe we could've spared a thought for them if the BBC had not written such a badly constructed article and instead, focussed on the tragic-consequence of the difference.

Btw, I loved desitude's dig:
condoms made according to international sizes are too large for a majority of Indian men. …

We are all South Asians now.

Brown is the new yellow.

In the same vein, is it just me or do men frequently complain about small condom sizes? I even had a desi boyfriend once who blathered on and on about how he never found condoms that fit him, even though he was clearly in the 60% majority. Any debonking (thanks No Von Mises!) will be greatly appreciated.

WHAT THE ^#^%$^)*()_&^&( ...I got to lunch for 3 hours and you guys had 182 comments without me!!!! ***throwing hissy fit***

Without reading all the comments I will say one thing...I don't know about desi boys in India but desi boys here are doing just fine thank you very much!!

And I want to know how does one measure to the millimeter with cold measuring tapes and such gadgets. Does the stimulus stick around to make sure the size doesn't change for the worse? Do they use a tape measure so it isn't cold? Has Texas Instruments developed a P-Measure?

(I've had 3 glasses of wine so forgive me, sex talk and wine don't go well together I'm told)

In my (lone) experience with Punjabi penis, I must say that (a) he was short and tiny-boned and (b) he had an enormous, delicious wang. Totally disproportionate, and one of the best surprises ever. I hope I never meet any of the subjects of this study to change my mind about or my experiments with Indian men.

I've had 3 glasses of wine so forgive me

..happy hour started early eh

I am gonna get off too...ta taa peeps

was it viagra or cialis?

Levitra...

The great Johnny Cochran said, "If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit!".

I don't know. It doesn't make any sense, but given the line of thought on this thread, anything with Cochran and gloves just sounds right.

Kush! 169! That's BONY M!!!

I used to love that song. Well, when I was 8, and had no idea what it was about. :-D

"long bong dong."

I have always wanted to ask this. Does size matter for gays?

vare vere ve.

heeeeres's Daddey!

Kush! 169! That's BONY M!!!

300 or bust.

Guys, do realise that desi chicks sing chinna chinna asai for a reason.

I used to love that song. Well, when I was 8, and had no idea what it was about. :-D

Salil,

It is a great song.

I guess you know now. For others, clue.

Roonie,

Have we met?

I have always wanted to ask this. Does size matter for gays?

I think you meant "Does size matter for the gays."

"two-punja punjoo"

At least Indian males are honest.

Welcome back CP. thanks ashas dad

Speaking of condoms, I guess the Trojans burst under the pressure...ehh yea, good one.
oh you had to rib it in eh? how we lost to fucla i will never know nor understand... rose bowl here we come (again)...abhi, it's blue vs the trojans.. :)

Sorry Chick-Pea. But it looks like the Trojans are not gonna be playing. It's a case of blue balls!

Completely off topic, Go Horns! (sort of)

I have always wanted to ask this. Does size matter for gays?

Quizman, nice comment. None of that "chinna chinna asai", dude. It's more "thu cheez badi hai mast mast".

JOAT (#183): Yes, Indeed. I can imagine the statistical sampling thus:
Chap shows porn films and then asks people to step on over for measurement?

"Aji Chinchpokli ke Lalubhai, aap aa jayiye.

Ramji aap note kijiyega: 6 inch 4 cms. nahin, 3 cms, nahin 2 cms.
Arre bhai, thanda ho rahe ho kya?"

I have always wanted to ask this. Does size matter for THE gays?

As much as it matters for the straight women or mens, most likely.

Have you never heard the phrase "size queen"?

There is no way in hell the average punjabi guy is smaller then everyone else in the world. I suspect that the gujarati's did this. That's right! I am sorry but if someone is going down for this it sure the hell isnt going to be us northener's.

Isnt this how the British divided us in the 1st place by dividing everyone? And now they did it again and it's working.

"Aji Chinchpokli ke Lalubhai, aap aa jayiye.

LOL.

Now having gone thru all the responses I'm wonder why my desi sisters haven't stated this beef (pun intented) yet. It's not a damn bottomless pit down there. It's all about bragging rights. What is this business of needing it to be that big anyway? Where are you going to put it?

Roonie,

Have we met?

Hahaha. I swear I was about to type those exact words. Seriously.

Roonie,

Have we met?

Heh, Heh

This is false, malicious, sensationalist reporting! I'm surprised the bbc and our own Indian newspapers would publish trash like this on their front page.

If every Indian male laid his member side by side, it still wouldn't circle Kirstie's Alley's pre-whatever-the-heck-diet-fad-she-used wardrobe...
If Amreeka ate less, and the average Bihari wore an underwear, than we wouldn't have to see this day.
Make love (refer to page 36, I think, of the KS for special positions for "lingamally"-challenged macacas) not war (Peace in the Middle East...and in your "middle" too!)

Reminds me of an anecdote involving the 6 ft 8 in tall West Indian cricketer Joel Garner. A woman journalist jokingly asked him during a press conference in Australia: "Joel, is everything in your body proportional to your height?"

Garner: "No dear. If it were, I'd be 10 feet tall."

Btw, obviously the researchers did not get to the Western Railway tracks to do the research. Anyone going on a 6.00 a.m. local could tell you that some of the Bihari migrant workers appeared to be squatting on tripods.

I need to get me one of those 'i am an outlier' t-shirts.

Some of the Bihari migrant workers appeared to be squatting on tripods.

Morning Wood + Flattering position + "Favorable" angle of vision = Permanently scarred, mentally.

If Amreeka ate less, and the average Bihari wore an underwear, than we wouldn't have to see this day.

Hey! How I choose (not) to dress has nothing to do with why you have a teeny weeny :-P

The diminutive Punjabi penis is lamented in folksongs sung by Punjabi women; I've heard them at mehndhi parties too (Amitabh, back me up on this.)

This is bullshit. I've heard and sung a lot of Punjabi folk songs in my time (at mehndis and otherwise).

This is bullshit. I've heard and sung a lot of Punjabi folk songs in my time (at mehndis and otherwise).

What? You've never heard the famous geet "Lundiyan to Bach Ke?"

If Amreeka ate less, and the average Bihari wore an underwear, than we wouldn't have to see this day.

Hey! How I choose (not) to dress has nothing to do with why you have a teeny weeny :-P

The "vadas and mirchi" need support my dear...have absolutely nothing against Bihari, or non-Bihari, women not wearing the unmentionables...In fact, I'll help you burn some, if you are so inclined. Strike a blow for female emancipation!!

What? You've never heard the famous geet "Lundiyan to Bach Ke?"

lol....verrrrry Drrrty DJs play that song.

DJ Drrty: No. She has heard Mera LONG gawacha

I've not met any of you. Too bad, though. I love desi men. Well, I shouldn't generalize. But I've had good experiences with them. Very good.

This is quite delayed, but someone said above that it doesn't matter what size it is, but instead, the "motion in the ocean," to kickback to a familiar saying. I disagree - somewhat. It can't be too small, and it can't be too large. Too small is a waste of a lubricated hoo-ha (you'll have trouble making your appearance in my errogenous zones, that's for certain), and too big is terrifying. It's like being impaled. It merely needs to be big ENOUGH. Depending on what average is, even with this study, Indian men probably have nothing to worry about. As long as you don't hear "are you inside me yet?" on a regular basis, rest assured, I'd probably do you. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

I've not met any of you. Too bad, though. I love desi men. Well, I shouldn't generalize. But I've had good experiences with them. Very good.

You've met at least one of us. But it was under religious circumstances so we shouldn't speak of it. :)

Allready now!!! I read an interesting scientific paper by Steven J Gould(i think) where an argument was made that a male penile size is correlated with sexual promiscuity of the females in that particular species. The argument was made between chimpanzee's and gorilla's. Chimps are supposed to have massive penis while gorillas are thought to have teeny weeny. The argument was that Chimp females tended to be sexualy promisuous and so the chimp male with the longer penis tended to win the battle for reproduction. Gorillas on the other hand had no such competition. Basically one silver back had control over a given area and sexual rights over the females in that area(no competition). So girls... the future of our penis rests in your promiscuity. Give us more competition... NOT!!!!

A N N A:

and i'm totally behind

Wait, you're behind?? OK, now I'm scared of you.

You've met at least one of us. But it was under religious circumstances so we shouldn't speak of it. :)

Indeed! Yippee!

The "vadas and mirchi" need support my dear...have absolutely nothing against Bihari, or non-Bihari, women not wearing the unmentionables...In fact, I'll help you burn some, if you are so inclined. Strike a blow for female emancipation!!

Argh. Well, you're probably not the only one who figures I'm some bra-burning psycho.

Annnnnyway, my boys, you have nothing worry about. Go out, get laid, make me proud. Happy Friday night!

Wait, you're behind?? OK, now I'm scared of you.

or...you could consider the "totally behind" concept a different way and remember that I'm all back, no front. ;)

I'm all back, no front. ;)

Aha. You, unlike your name aren't a palindrome.

an interesting scientific paper ... where an argument was made that a male penile size is correlated with sexual promiscuity of the females in that particular species

Do not ever take anything seriously that is said or written by an evolutionary psychologists/physical anthropologist when it comes to sex, "reproductive success," "competition for mates" -- topics with which they're all obsessed to scary degrees, and try to extrapolate the most ridiculous/extreme of animal behaviors to modern mankind.

We had a joke at school that said the physical/evolutionary anthropologists were in their field so that their research could justify all their own affairs with female grad students half their age.

In the same vein, is it just me or do men frequently complain about small condom sizes? I even had a desi boyfriend once who blathered on and on about how he never found condoms that fit him, even though he was clearly in the 60% majority. Any debonking (thanks No Von Mises!) will be greatly appreciated.

So... not to go TOO TMI, but most Western condoms are made with circumcision in mind. When you've got extra padding down there, you sometimes need more space inside the thing to have sensation, even if the length looks like it should be ok.

Allready now!!! I read an interesting scientific paper by Steven J Gould(i think) where an argument was made that a male penile size is correlated with sexual promiscuity of the females in that particular species. The argument was made between chimpanzee's and gorilla's. Chimps are supposed to have massive penis while gorillas are thought to have teeny weeny. The argument was that Chimp females tended to be sexualy promisuous and so the chimp male with the longer penis tended to win the battle for reproduction.

Does that explain why humans have the biggest penis among all primates(not only relative to body size, but also absolute terms)? Yep, we all have it bigger than gorillas and chimps.

So if you run across a belligerent gorilla in the wild, all you have to do is take of your lungi. That should take his mind off you. In fact, he might call his shrink right there for an appointment.

I read an interesting scientific paper by Steven J Gould

I REALLY, REALLY doubt this was by Gould, considering that he was hugely skeptical of sociobiological theory throughout his whole career.

It might have been somone like Richard Dawkins or Jared Diamond though?

I am a little disappointed that no one has elaborated on

MD #1
--
Well, I seem to remember being taught in med school that erection was something of an, er, equalizer in terms of size/breadth variation.
---
the flaccid penis or the frozen penis (negative length) are quite irrelevant.. What matters is the length and girth at full attention and that depends on the source of arousal among other things.

I still await enlightenment on this subject

It might have been somone like Richard Dawkins or Jared Diamond though?

yep, I'd vote Jared Diamond, for stuff like that.

It might have been somone like Richard Dawkins or Jared Diamond though?

My appologies it was prolly Dawkins. Its been over 12 yrs since i read this.

It's fabulous how much evolutionary science we've had to discuss this week on SM. Tonight everyone will be eying each other with a totally new perspective.

Does that explain why humans have the biggest penis among all primates

yeah prolly ;-)

or...you could consider the "totally behind" concept a different way and remember that I'm all back, no front. ;)

True, that's a nice interpretation to fall back on. The phrase "spankable acreage" comes to mind ....

Tonight everyone will be eying each other with a totally new perspective.

After 3-4 beers, "Dash it, I'd do her in a NY minute!!!"

lol....verrrrry Drrrty DJs play that song.

Yaar, I have it on full rotation...

DJ Drrty: No. She has heard Mera LONG gawacha

Good one Quizzy. Not good as Jatt Ho Gaya sharabi Poonani ...or...um....Aj Din Vadiya Vagina ...or...uh....oh man...I've got nuttin'. You win.

As long as you don't hear "are you inside me yet?" on a regular basis, rest assured, I'd probably do you. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Hey, it's always better than hearing "That'll do pig." For me, at least. But I digress: My name is DJ DP. It's a pleasure to meet you. Do you come here often? Say, can I buy you a...

You've met at least one of us. But it was under religious circumstances so we shouldn't speak of it. :)

Religious for whom? Was the name of God being fervently praised? Was an elephant's trunk the focus of attention? Was the holy text written by vatsyayana? If you answered yes, then I have vague understanding of what you're referring to......and it's hot.

I am a little disappointed that no one has elaborated on

MD #1
--
Well, I seem to remember being taught in med school that erection was something of an, er, equalizer in terms of size/breadth variation.
---
the flaccid penis or the frozen penis (negative length) are quite irrelevant.. What matters is the length and girth at full attention and that depends on the source of arousal among other things.

I still await enlightenment on this subject

What else is there to elaborate on? I'm a grower, not a shower.

That should take his mind off you. In fact, he might call his shrink right there for an appointment.

Or give you a funny look before hustling over on his knuckles and cock punching you. Think Daniel Craig in Casino Royale...Only Ace Ventura is crazy enough to flash a silverback.

Speaking of 'big', the larger a male peacock's tail feathers, the greater attention it generates among the wimminz. Totally a desi thing, peacocks ya know.

wikipedia as usual had the goods

Length of the unencumbered flaccid penis is not necessarily proportional to size of the erect penis. Blood flow from arousal, and its relationship to the subsequent length measurement of the erect penis varies widely among men. Hence a smaller-than-average flaccid penis might grow to five times its flaccid length and twice its girth, or conversely a flaccid penis on the larger side might only grow to 1.5 times the length when filled with blood. The transition to erection and its relationship to measurements is by no means a one-size-fits-all equation. Low temperatures affect the size of the flaccid penis. One general physiological response to cold is decreased circulation of blood to the extremities, which includes the external genitals. The penis will often shrink further as a result.

"unencumbered"?

Richard Dawkins? What about Richard Dawson?

Then there is the prominent social commentator Dustin Diamond. Although the video definitely disproves his braggadocio about being well endowed and like Ryan from the Office (dating Kelly Kapour - desi connection) is definitely an advertisement against making a sex tape.

Uhhh... I would not fret too much about this study boys. While the sample size is prolly ok, I wonder if volunteer subjects are considered truly random. There's only so much statistical anlaysis you can do with nonrandom sampling, and some of the conclusions they've come to aren't valid in such cases. I'll have to check my stats notes on this. Also, what kind of incentives did they give to subjects? And would such incentives influence the socioeconomic background of subjects they attracted? If they attracted subjects with lower socoeconomic standing than the average, then are these subjects nutritionally compromised when compared to the average population? I don't know if nutriton has anything to do with penis size... Regardless , (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't height the factor that is most associated with penis size (with few exceptions such as Ron Jeremy)? So, I'd like to know what the mean heights of the subjects were, rather than focusin on ethnicity. I have noticed that abcd's are often taller than their cousins back home. Couldn't it be that South Asian penis sizes are as varied as skin tones in India?!! They're making it sound like penis size is set for South Asians, and it's about as varied as our hair colour! I really doubt it. I can't believe I'm thinking about this as much as I already have. Time well wasted, indeed!

I also have to say, this is awful reporting, sensationaliized and meant to belittle south asian men. It could have instead focused on the AIDS epidemic in India and discuss how to get Indian men to use condoms rather than pushing very sensitive buttons. Ridiculous!

Co-incidental? I think not.

http://xkcd.com/c194.html

I question the stats on this too, but mostly from a face-saving 'there's gotta be something wrong!' perspective. I haven't had a chance to look into it too deeply yet.

Meh, doesn't bother me that much though. They've always come back for more ;)

The level of surprise on this subject, from you good desi boys, says something. Yes it does! ;-)

so, i was a bit frazzled when i read the initial post this afternoon. so i took matters into my own hands and did a random male tongue size check on the streets of manhattan. worry not desi men (and ladies), turns out our tongues are 2.5 cm longer than the average human.

improvisation, thats what makes us great.

so, i was a bit frazzled when i read the initial post this afternoon. so i took matters into my own hands and did a random male tongue size check on the streets of manhattan. worry not desi men (and ladies), turns out our tongues are 2.5 cm longer than the average human.

It only matters if you know how to use it!

It only matters if you know how to use it!

kick us while we're down.

true, but we are easily trained and willing to learn.

That should take his mind off you. In fact, he might call his shrink right there for an appointment.

Or give you a funny look before hustling over on his knuckles and cock punching you.

Ewwww!

so, i was a bit frazzled when i read the initial post this afternoon. so i took matters into my own hands and did a random male tongue size check on the streets of manhattan.

Listen, I am not going to be at the meetup next week, because one of my new favorite desis is coming to visit me, and I'm going to conduct some experiments of my own on him. He says he's exempt from the findings of this study. He shan't fear that measuring tape that I bust out then.

However, I'd be willing to test the theories posited in the BBC first hand (pun intended). All I would require is a full erection, and I'll give you an immediate review of your dill pickle. No funny business, just research. Let's.

I'm actually speechless. This entire day, I've just been speechless after reading this...

I'll give you an immediate review of your dill pickle.

Hold the mayo??

Listen, I am not going to be at the meetup next week, because one of my new favorite desis is coming to visit me, and I'm going to conduct some experiments of my own on him.

A true scientist would not pass up such a large sample set. Scientists put their personal lives aside to do proper science.

WHATEVER! I have to do my own, independent study, as Roonie pointed out above. Will the first 3 subjects come forward please??

Delicous

S'more delicous...

Oh yes, can't forget this delicous!

Abhi, you're right. I suppose I am not a TRUE scientist, just an amateur aspiring to be one.

It's fabulous how much evolutionary science we've had to discuss this week on SM. Tonight everyone will be eying each other with a totally new perspective.

It's been a wretched week for youz Abhi. You entered a thread with some game, left with none and now your mojo has been marginalized and made miniscule.

What? You've never heard the famous geet "Lundiyan to Bach Ke?"

Dude, its your characterization. How do you generalize from one funny/dirty song to conclude that there is something known as

The diminutive Punjabi penis

Listen, I am not going to be at the meetup next week, because one of my new favorite desis is coming to visit me

John Abraham is going to be in LA?

not so "hard" to believe that the people who wore tights for generations would want to divert attn to those who wore dhotis and lungis for much longer...

someone forwarded me the Reuters article on this study, with a personal disclaimer that i thought you all might appreciate:

Don't panic, ladies and gents. A very reliable source mentioned that Kashmiri men were not measured for the said study. The same source also told me that Kashmiris are not only blessed with long noses, but also other long appendages. Because our forefathers spent hundreds of years in Pherans, which not only kept them warm during cold months, but also allowed things to hang free, enabling gravity to help maximize growth.

250+ comments and nothing from SpoorLam??

hey guys! dont get defensive if you're just... average (2:14).

You entered a thread with some game, left with none and now your mojo has been marginalized and made miniscule.

You'd think wouldn't you? Fortunately I swing my bat for a high average. Game on.

You'd think wouldn't you? Fortunately I swing my bat for a high average. Game on.

You're batting for a woman you don't have? ;)

That's like being a fulltime pinch runner.

262 comments and not one mention of the imperialist attack on saffron balls?

I mean, look at the, um, organ reporting this propaganda - the BBC?

Any Street Fighter 2 players? Dhalsim disproves this whole thing. Long arms, long legs...you do the math.

John Abraham is going to be in LA?

Errr, second favorite ;) I actually haven't decided if John Abraham is my utmost favorite desi. I think my #1 favorite may have been from my law school...

Since I have a predilection for brown men, I can say with some confidence, that having over the years done some research on the matter, that I am more often than not, pleased with the package that my desi brothers pack. During my early university days, I did go through a period I'd like to forget, which I would refer to as my "white phase". Have to say, that the desi men measure well ahead. And, in T.O., when I gup-shup with my various hags, the consensus is that brown is a good way to get down (except I do hear that lasting ability leaves something to be desired with our straight brothers). So, straight and gay brown men, despite this research, your rep on the street is safe still (at least in Toronto).

Why is everyone taking this to mean that Indians are shorter than average? Where does it say that anywhere in the article?

Here's what it actually says (from Slate):

"But data collected in Mumbai till 2001 showed that 60% of the participants measured 126 to 156 mm in length"

Converting the above, 60% of participants are between 5"-6"

How is this any different from what the Lifestyle Condum Survey of Americans concluded back in 2001?

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/WolfFiles/story?id=90588&page=1

A study by Lifestyles Condom Co. shows that ... about two-thirds of the 300 college-aged men ranged from between 5.1 and 6.2 inches.

How do you generalize from one funny/dirty song to conclude that there is something known as

The diminutive Punjabi penis

It's not a real song, but a pun I created by combining "Lund" with a famous caveat by Panjabi MC. Plus, desitude made that assertion, not I.

It's one thing when non-Punjabis make silly Punjabi generalizations (see any Hindi film or TV serial with a sardar in it--always the buffoon), but for a Punjabi to make such a generalization on such a topic?! Traitor! :)

For the record, I'm not Punjabi, I'm Poonjabi. @=)
And I've always maintained that my Poonjabi brethren are hung like a an ox and even require their own gopi for proper care and maintainance.

262 comments and not one mention of the imperialist attack on saffron balls?

*Ahem*
Mine are thankfully safe from crafty leftwing-cabal and commie bastards who wish destroy Assertive Nation and 20 million years of Vedic virility...........but for how long? Glorious Hindu lunds were the basis for the Egyptian pyramids 140,000 years ago but now Abrahamic pinko-fags traitors like John Abraham are diluting the Saffron Balls and thereby slowing down the Hindu Rate of Growth!

Death to John Abraham and his chota lund!
Hail PunjabiFemale and her gigantic saffron balls!

Err...Northern Indian men have relatively bigger penises. Punjabis etc...mmm mountain men.

Yes that is a generalization and yes that comes from personal experience. ;-) Had to share of course.

I don't know if anyone has noted this, but about a year ago? there was a bbc article on E. Asian dicks. I paid attention since I was dating the owner of one. They got told their dicks were no shorter than anyone else's. The averages broke down along the same lines as the rest of the (I'm assuming western?) population.
Still its fun to see how the guys get all riled up about it.

Apologies to the real Spoorlam for the lame attempt.

Grace us with your presence, O tolerant and lotus-fragranted one!

Roonie -- really? there are hot desi guys in law schools??

Roonie -- really? there are hot desi guys in law schools??

I back her up on that one. I eat my lunch at UCLA Law just to gawk. Pied Piper, you act surprised... ;-)

This thread has been fun. I wonder what people's 55 fiction on THIS topic would be...

-t

Oh yeah lawyers are super hot PP! Anyone that can bust out and break down the law for you in one breath is pretty hot.

this study is a goddamn lie and when i find the evil-doers responsible for this outrage, i will beat them over the head with my gigantic indian cock.

I also have to say, this is awful reporting, sensationaliized and meant to belittle south asian men. It could have instead focused on the AIDS epidemic in India and discuss how to get Indian men to use condoms rather than pushing very sensitive buttons. Ridiculous!

I think in typical naive and oblivious desi old people's fashion, the researchers in the study had no clue that there was anything to their research but the terribly interesting question of condom slippage frequencies. Its interesting why this article is so interesting to readers of yahoo and the bbc. Does this have anything to do with globalization? Maybe it has to do with resentment of the desi diaspora? maybe desi guys need to be taken down a peg or two? does it humanize us? is this just a welcome comic relief from the majority of international news? or is the international community really that interested in our lunds?

because if they are just interested in our lunds, willing subjects are surely near at hand to dispel myths and restore faiths

You cannot clap with one hand. It takes two to tango as the cliche goes. So the size of the lingam by itself is meaningless unless coupled with the right size yoni.

According to the size and depth of their private organs male and female partners have been put in three categories. These are Shash (rabbit), Vrish (bull) and Ashva (horse) for the males and Mrigi (doe), Badava (cow) and Hastini (she-elephant) for the females. Shashak (rabbit) males have a small phallus, Vrish (bull) males have normal size phallus. While Ashva (horse) males have extremely large phallus. Mrigi (doe) females have extremely small cunt. Badava (cow females have normal sized cunt, while Hastini (she-elephant) females have extemely large cunt. A union of Shashak (rabbit) male with Mrigi (doe) female, of Vrishu (bull) male with Badava (cow) female and Ashva (horse) male with Hastini (she-elephant) female is well matched because the sizes of their private parts are equal to one another. There are six kinds of unmatched union between these types of partners, viz. Union of Shashak (rabbit) male with Hastini (she-elephant) or Badva (cow) females, union of Vrish (bull) male with Mrigi (doe) or Hastini (she-elephant) females and the union of Ashva (horse) male with Mrigi (doe) or Badava (cow) female.

This is from the most ancient and chief saffron balls himself.

Somewhere else, he defines small = 4 inches, normal = 6 inches and large = 8 inches as the distribution with outliers on both ends left out.

So people it's not one size fits all, but the matching sizes of the yoni and lingam that is important. So there!

Its all funny now; but here we have tangible evidence of our 'inferiority', brought to you by the 'credible' western media. no its not about taking the brown man down, though I can see the bbc editor laughing, but it will live with us, just like desi=IQ 80 lives with us - and gets tiresome when one hears it repeated for the 500th time (that IQ biz of course is meant to take the step out of the model minority, and is also allegedly 'credible'). and the net makes all things worse: ppl just wont say to your face what theyll say here. Hairy backs, small dicks, and stupid : sigh.

So the lingam can't find the perfect matching yoni, then go for high unions.

but it will live with us

risible, Only for an insecure person with an inferiority complex and who chooses to play by these rules of bigger is better. For someone secure in his sheath, it's like water off a ducks back and an opening for some mirth and fun.

Hairy backs, small dicks, and stupid : sigh.

hey, don't call me stupid!

"Aji Chinchpokli ke Lalubhai, aap aa jayiye.

Ramji aap note kijiyega: 6 inch 4 cms. nahin, 3 cms, nahin 2 cms.
Arre bhai, thanda ho rahe ho kya?"

Funniest.Comment.Ever!!!

So vat IS the average penis size that we desi dudes fall so short of?

Sigh. Short. Hairy. Fat. Unhealthy. Old-fashioned. Chauvinistic.

And I thought we desi dudes had enough to deal with. Sigh.

Hairy backs? Wax 'em. Aveda will charge you like $30 for the entire painful process. Or get a buddy with Nair in to do the job.

We, the gays, despite appearances to the contrary, generally don't have severe issues with the size of the dong, unless one's a bottom, in which case, you learn why the phrase "size queen" was coined. Sometimes it's nice to have something to hold on to, but it's not really that much of a big deal. (Hee. "Big" deal.)

But in my experience, most desi men really do need to work on that whole "lasting more than a few minutes" thing. Once in a while it'd be nice to make a night out of it.

This is no surprise.

If we men had bigger sizes India wudn't have been bullied by every pimply neighbour

This thread has been fun. I wonder what people's 55 fiction on THIS topic would be...

The "bad sex" edition of the Friday55 is up and there are a few to peruse, but what you should really do is join in...it's more fun in a group. ;)

> If we men had bigger sizes India wudn't have been bullied by every pimply neighbour

Speak for yourself..

Anyways, this whole condom misfit thing can be blamed on Congressional earmarks.. I'm looking for the link right now..

From a NYTIMES article

"The NYTimes has an excellent article on how foreign aid is often more about aiding local companies than aiding foreigners. It's a familiar story but told with a wry look at condom production in Alabama where for decades billions of condoms have been manufactured for USAID and other programs despite the fact that costs are much lower on the world market."

Apologies to the real Spoorlam for the lame attempt.

No, that was fun, DJ_Dirty_P. Sorry I missed your earlier reference back in #37!

All I wish for now is an exhaustive statistical critique by Razib on the subject.

Roonie -- really? there are hot desi guys in law schools??

There most certainly were in mine.

After reading the info before the cut, looking at the number of comments made me laugh out loud. I had this image of hundreds of desi men going "Oh hell no..."

In other news, anyone read about the spray-on latex condom that they're working on?

What exactly is 'international standards'? Europeans? America?

East asia makes about a quarter of the world population. That should certainly bring down the average international size.

Combine that with the fact that South Asia makes for almost another quarter of the population and it seems unlikely that Indian men would deviate much from 'international standards' when in fact India should have the 2nd largest influence *on* international standards.

267 · VJ on December 8, 2006 08:38 PM · Direct link
Why is everyone taking this to mean that Indians are shorter than average? Where does it say that anywhere in the article?

Here's what it actually says (from Slate):

"But data collected in Mumbai till 2001 showed that 60% of the participants measured 126 to 156 mm in length"
Converting the above, 60% of participants are between 5"-6"

Is that what the study indictaes??????? Can anyone else testify to this please? And if that is so, then this some more bullshit. The article illustrates a totally different picture! Post-colonial subjugation through emasculation? I definetly think so! The "theme" of this article of course will be added to the many negative stereotypes of Desi men. I think it's time to create stereotypes of white western people not only to "clap back" at them like they shoot at us but also to deconstruct white hegemony which I think is going to be reinforced using the bullshit conclusions of this study. Here is an small example of such a tactic, please note, that this mock site of wikipedia takes shots at everyone and everything! http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/White_people

Macacca's stand up!

And if someone says that you have a small penis because your Desi, either a) measure your penis on their forehead b) slap them in the face with it c) knock them the F*#!$ out (with fists or if your not like that then with words) or d) be a chumcha, coward or kutha and accept it and do nothing.

razib writes:

>>i'll go first, i have a 21 inch cock

I think the expression is: I am a living, walking tripod.

M. Nam

Glad someone mentioned this:

i think there was a reference to bhojpuri baingan (eggplant of bhojpur) in that. hmm... i take it biharis do quite well in this space. somebody got lucky there. *wink*wink* *nudge*nudge*

Back in the `80s, the top folk smash-hits in the Hindi heartland were two casettes entitled "Harami Kela" and "Bhojpuri Baingan". The former is somewhat more germane to this thread, right ?

Mahesh,

I think the study indicates nothing , and there are so many things not said. Its a litmus test. Non desi people are interested in our lunds. For some reason. Why? I don't know. We all know we have nothing to worry about in this department, I am firmly convinced.

hmm now if only a post highlighting a reputable boob size study could be posted

Is that what the study indictaes??????? Can anyone else testify to this please? And if that is so, then this some more bullshit. The article illustrates a totally different picture!

Its really shoddy reporting on the part of yahoo, bbc, and the TOI. They put a definite negative spin on the subject.

To add to what I said in my first post, based on the international standard condom size (160-180 mm) and the following data (reposted):

A study by Lifestyles Condom Co. shows that ... about two-thirds of the 300 college-aged men ranged from between 5.1 and 6.2 inches.

we can come to the same conclusions about Americans:

"Condoms made according to international sizes are too large for a majority" Americans (66% to be exact)

or,

Condoms designed to meet international size specifications are too big for many American men as their penises fall short of what manufacturers had anticipated

or,

Initial findings of a Lifestyle Condoms Co penis survey revealed that 66 percent of American men on spring break in Cancun had penises about 2.4 cm (one inch) shorter than those condoms catered for.

"But in my experience, most desi men really do need to work on that whole "lasting more than a few minutes" thing. Once in a while it'd be nice to make a night out of it."

That's hardly a brown phenomenon. Remember Missy Elliot's "One Minute Man"? She wasn't rapping about Indians.

Richard Pryor had a great take on it - that most men lie about their stamina, but he was honest with himself. "I'm good for about 4 minutes of serious f******, and then I need 8 hours of sleep. And a bowl of Wheaties."

Seinfeld - Of course people lie about sex. People lie during sex.

Remember Missy Elliot's "One Minute Man"?

And before, that, this gem [words NSFW].

GOOD JOB VJ!!! I HOPE PEOPLE READ YOUR POSTS TO UNDERSTAND THE WHOLE TRUTH. And I think that Sepia Mutiny should blog about this issue once again TO SHOW THE WHOLE TRUTH. No disrespect to Sepia Mutiny of course, keep doing your thing!

Like I previously wrote, if anyone questions your shlong because your a Desi, put them in their place and smack them with it in the face!!! yeaaaaa boi!!! And NO I don't have an infatuation or fetish with hitting people in the face with shlongs.

Remember Missy Elliot's "One Minute Man"?

I remember this one about"short men" from 10 years ago (this is the "radio play version")

IT SHOULD NOT BE LOST ON ANYONE THAT THE SURVEY ACTUALLY SAYS 60% of DESI MEN FALL WITHIN THE AVERAGE PENIS SIZE RANGE OF 5 to 6 INCHES; ACTUALLY THIS IS lOWER THAN THE PERCENTAGE OF AMERICAN MEN WHO FALL IN THE SAME RANGE. SO REALLY THIS SURVEY SAYS THAT AMERICAN MEN ON AVERAGE HAVE SLIGHTLY SMALLER LUNDS. BUT WHO IS COUNTING.

Please forward to the BBC.

thank you come again (and again)

The caps are definately needed, for the sake of our progeny.

The caps are definately needed, for the sake of our progeny.

If you want to have progeny, I suggest you leave the caps off. ;)

If you want to have progeny, I suggest you leave the caps off. ;)

Watch out, A N N A's fixin' to bust a cap! I thought this thread was more about bustin' a ... oh, nevermind.

Watch out, A N N A's fixin' to bust a cap!

I'm far more likely to tap that ass vs. bust a cap in one, despite what this picture implies. ;)

chastened i am

As someone who went to Aitchison College, an all boys school in Lahore, I probably saw more Desi dick than Mahmood Ghaznavi (or an expat hippie girl). And I found the whole spectrum of tripods, pencil dicks, channa testicles, gulab jamun tattay, etc.

This is also similar to the "Curse of the Irish" one heres about in Boston. It's another UK attempt to emasculate an exColony. My irish friends are all well hung, and my best friend with an Irish fetish says she's 'in it for the dick'.

BBC are wankers!

Mmmm. Aitchison. Best four days of my teenage life, when I was there for national debate tournaments. Only time I've encountered boys willing to cuddle under the covers as I sat outside on a bench and Major Azhar (the English dept guy?) walked by to see me chatting up a bunch of the senior bwoyz.

when I was there for national debate tournaments

Ah, no wonder you fit in so well at the bunker. At least four of us are former debate dorks. ;)

Seriously. An all-boys school, and I was there at the age of 17. I mean, what did they EXPECT? Small wonder that I was too tired to really debate the next day.

When do we get to see the followup story on South Asian bra sizes ?

I'll go first. I have a 21 inch cock.

Damn.
Your hen must need a stepladder.

Small wonder that I was too tired to really debate the next day.

Is that what you call your Mr. Happy?

Sorry couldn't resist =)

I guess America won't be outsourcing porn.

Is that what you call your Mr. Happy?

Sorry couldn't resist =)

My little friend takes exception to that statement. Small Wonder was belonged to the ex.

Length is nothing without strength! As you will observe, I can Dick-press 30Kgs while standing on bricks. Get working guys.

People,
A VERY IMPORTANT NOTICE
Please make sure that you are wearing a metal chain around your waist whilst practising the above, as it ensures that you are maintaining correct posture and controls your kundalini and such. I repeat: do NOT try it without the metal chain.

Shaanthi Peace

Obviously, the measured specimens were mostly of Muslim and Christian origin.

Another Abrahamic conspiracy in league with missionaries via colonialist organ of BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation)

Soon through assertive nation funding there shall be SBC (Saffron Balls Corporation) to counteract negative propaganda like this, a news corporation devoted to showcasing items on assertive penises in each programme, including samples in photographs and sillhouette (sideways) during advertising breaks and news reports.

I am currently collecting sample pictures at various RSS meetings across America as we speak to inaugurate process from diaspora -- please leave your name and e-mail address here to let me know when you shall be attending so I can ensure full encapsulation of vedic length for display of democracy in future, saffron pride, and also to teach China and Britain a lesson to stop erections of propaganda with us.

Stop fiddling with our balls!

Hail Mogambo!

Did anyone happen to catch Saturday Night Live last night? They did a fake news commentary on this article. Boy, did the crowd crack up. Reminds me of the time, not long after 9/11, they used Indian accents for arab (terrorists) in a skit - the crowd loved that, too! "Damn, thank goodness we can still make fun of brown folk in these overly PC times! They're HILARIOUS! It's open season and it's FUN!"

I read an interesting scientific paper by Steven J Gould I REALLY, REALLY doubt this was by Gould, considering that he was hugely skeptical of sociobiological theory throughout his whole career.

It might have been somone like Richard Dawkins or Jared Diamond though?

This doesn't sound like any of the above, actually.

Human penis size relative to other primates' is pretty adequately explained through sexual selection.

Literally, and figuratively. By women. :-)

The News:

A survey of more than 1,000 men in India has concluded that condoms made according to international sizes are too large for a majority of Indian men.......The conclusion of all this scientific endeavour is that about 60% of Indian men have penises which are between three and five centimetres shorter than international standards........Thirty percent of Indian men are 1 inch short, and another 30 percent are 2 inches short

The response:

PLEASE PLEASE say it ain't so!

God-damnit! this is totally reckless journalism

This sucks......now we'll also be known as having small penises

JFC! How effin embarassing...who the #$%Z decided to release a press report thats so...well sensational. This just plain effin sucks.

This is false, malicious, sensationalist reporting! I'm surprised the bbc and our own Indian newspapers would publish trash like this on their front page.

this is awful reporting, sensationaliized and meant to belittle south asian men.

The damage is done. The damage is done. Indian men haven't been this decimated so quickly since Malaria appeared.

The Spin:

Everybody knows- Size don't matter. It is all in the performance ;-)

hey, napoleon was short and reputed to have a very small penis and he's still a topic of conversation for other reasons, including bedding beautiful women. don't despair :)

The angry denial:

There is no way in hell the average punjabi guy is smaller then everyone else in the world.

The reality check:

The diminutive Punjabi penis is lamented in folksongs sung by Punjabi women; I've heard them at mehndhi parties too

Thanks for the laughs guys :)

It's still the most-emailed story on BBC.

"The diminutive Punjabi penis is lamented in folksongs sung by Punjabi women; I've heard them at mehndhi parties too"

I haven't read all the posts here but I'll use the Larry David defense and cite "large vaginas" as the issue here.

How the hell do they even measure these things... isn't the unerected to erected ratio different for different men? And if they measure both, I hardly think that one can get it on with some guy holding a ruler next to it. If its just a survey then maybe desis are modest?

How to get desi (or any) men to worry and obsess and go on about their feelings....talk about their dicks ;) But y'all seem to be taking it with good humour, shaabash.

Since the occasional "what about our women's boobs" comments have popped up, I can say with some confidence (and perhaps desi sisters would care to back this up) that we're decidedly better endowed than most women in the US, particularly the WASP variety...it's hard to get shirts that fit right for this reason, honestly, because they tend to be cut for more, um, linear female figures.

Since the occasional "what about our women's boobs" comments have popped up, I can say with some confidence (and perhaps desi sisters would care to back this up) that we're decidedly better endowed than most women in the US, particularly the WASP variety...it's hard to get shirts that fit right for this reason, honestly, because they tend to be cut for more, um, linear female figures.

Hehe... despite being Bihari, my "Bhojpuri baingans" look more like Thai ones. At least in this case you can honestly say that size doesn't matter :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5246106.stm

they did a similar study in england some time back. And found similar results.

"An FPA survey of 500 people found a third had experienced a condom splitting or coming off during sex."

"Toni Belfield of the FPA said: "Men come in different shapes and sizes and so do condoms."

In any case, I dont see why people are making such a big deal out of it. Because statistically, when you design something for an average estimate, by definition, I would expect around 50% to fall below the average standard and another half to exceed it.

I was under the impression that south asian men lacked "balls". In any event, I have to think about those people sitting around a table thinking to themselves, "Gee. We have all this money, what should we survey? Child Labor? Genocide and Human Rights violations? No, let's keep it real with South Asian male dick size."

Unlike Siddhartha Dhanvant Shanghvi, Tejpal offered no descriptions of "weasel-like loins clutching and unclutching [his] lovely, long, louche manhood, as though squeezing an orange for its juice". And he eschewed toothbrushes all together, unlike Arundhati Roy, who was nominated years ago for a passage from the God of Small Things that featured "nut-brown breasts" that wouldn't support a toothbrush and haunches that would support "a whole array" thereof. Rohinton Mistry hasn't featured on the shortlist, but some of his aura lost its sheen when I read a passage in A Fine Balance that referred to a menacing seducer's "Bhojpuri brinjal". It made baingan bharta out of that scene.

Hehe... despite being Bihari, my "Bhojpuri baingans" look more like Thai ones. At least in this case you can honestly say that size doesn't matter :)

Re: sexual selection having an impact on penis size --

how does arranged marriage (i.e. artificial selection) affect things?

ok... it turns out some guy did blog about it. I've pulled the excerpt

hairy_d: Nilanjana could be male or female. I had a male boss called Nilanjana. Now, this particular Nilanjana that you linked to, is a respected columnist from the Business Standard. She also blogs at Kitabkhana as Hurree Babu.

thanks for the link Quizman. She writes very vell. I quite enjoyed her thoughts on depillatory egalitarianism.

The women on this thread have not acted in good faith. The kind of yellow journalism perpetrated by the BBC is not befitting of its class. Now, for those of us who are endowed with mind rather than matter, put our minds at ease. Is it the Indian brain or the Indian prawn that you value highly? The answer to that will decide whether a future survey of therapist's income in the U.S showed a sharp rise on or about December 8th, 2006, a day that will live in infamy (with many apologies to pearl harbor).

Re: sexual selection having an impact on penis size --

how does arranged marriage (i.e. artificial selection) affect things?

What's the damage? Regardless of how accurate this study may or may not be, the headline and the article's summation is all people will remember. Even SNL cracked about it. Are we doomed to be the next (East) Asian men, forever cursed by the stereotype of the small penis? How far has this story gotten? None of my friends has mentioned it...yet...

The most disturbing thing about this discussion is that no one is picking up on the actual conclusions of this study, limited as it might be.

To add to what I said in my first post, based on the international standard condom size (160-180 mm) and the following data (reposted):

A study by Lifestyles Condom Co. shows that ... about two-thirds of the 300 college-aged men ranged from between 5.1 and 6.2 inches.
we can come to the same conclusions about Americans:

This study of american men is actually showing that a slightly greater percentage of American men in this survey had lund sizes of the size compared in the BBC article.

So this whole hub-hub is actually pointing out that in two studies of limited apparent quality, 66% of american men and 60% of desi men had lunds that were from 5 to 6 inches.

The reason I think that it was forwarded so widely, I think it because a) women just like teasing dudes about this subject, and b) non desi men really are kind of stoked by this small piece of news. I know I'd be faintly amused if this BBC article was about norweigens or something.

But, the more disturbing thing is desi people, some anyway, seem to accept this as fact. That to me indicates a willingness to believe negative things about our community without evidence, within our own community.

No one is blowing their horn about this study from a desi perspective, when, if you put two equally random and low quality "studies" together, you get the pretty non exciting result that 66% of american men and 60% of desi men have slightly below average size lunds.

We have nothing to lose but our chains.

Piece Shaanti

Naveen, your friends probably have seen it, but now is the time to re-double our efforts at our liberation from the discrimination we face. Maybe Mahesh's method would work with your friends?

Piece Shaanti

Seriously, I think pollution might very well be a factor in this and any other pan-Indian divergence from medical "norms," much more so than genes and even the oft-trumpetted nutrition. It would, for example, explain results that don't vary across class. Anyone know of a physiological connection between air pollution and size? I remember those anti-smoking billboards that featured a classic "Marlborough" style man with an, um, wilting cigarette.

A different name,

You're trying to explain something that might not even be true.

Here's an example:

Person A: Did you know yaks are green?

Person B: Well, the reason they are green is because of the photosynthesis of the gum tree plants of the amazon.

Person A: Oh wait, I was wrong, yaks are brown.

Person B: Of yeah, that means I gave you an explanation for something that wasn't actually true.

Person A: Yeah.

so...you're saying men in LA have small willies?

Even worse, he's saying Big Oil is trying to make everyone's willy smaller

now is the time to re-double our efforts at our liberation from the discrimination we face.

hott

I wish I had a big penis so I could prove this study wrong.

Naveen,

Sublimate your anxiety and turn it into an MBA.

Penisenvy,

You are a dummy.

PenisEnvy's probably a non-desi troll.

The lund global average is 160-180 mm. equaling 6.2 to 7.0.

Therefore, the american values of 5 to 6 inches also falls outside the international average.

This is about penis size, which is a silly and immature topic. But you are still a dummy.

PenisEnvy's probably a non-desi troll.

A non-desi who follows the Asian Games? To me he sounds more like a self-hating brownie.

He's also stupid enough to not know how to convert from mm to inches

That's what gets me......why the fuck do people believe negative stereotypes about themselves? I mean, all you have to do is check with yourself to see its a stereotype.

Its like some people actually want to be inferior

Gee, this internet site says the average indian has an IQ of 80, which means they are below the normal intelligence value. Gosh, I think they are right. I'm not going to, oh, check with my own family and the people around me. I'd rather just believe any old bs that makes me inferior to other people. That's the ticket. . Oh and plus, this one study, said that desi men have small wankers. And oh, that one author, he said colonialism was good for India.

Before Razib jumps all over my ass, I want to also say, a scientific study that proves racial or ethnic differences has to have a rigorous standard of proof and multiple replicatable corrolative studies before anyone should believe it.

i'll go out on a limb here ... my N>far enough above 10, with 6 being indians (of different locations/caste/etc) . each one of them had tiny, TINY penises -- i am talking 2 inches or less, erect. i once encountered a white man with a similar problem -- he was the smallest i've ever seen. sure, you can give the whole "size doesn't matter, it's what you do with it" but there really is not much you can do with a micropenis. i know my sample size is small, but i also can't believe that i would be so unlucky with my own men. it's a bit depressing, to be honest ... but that just means i'm all the more eager to find the man who finally shatters this trend ... but, when i read stuff like this bbc article and recall my own bad size experiences, it does make hm go hmm. [for the record -- the largest was east asian so there's one stereotype out the door for me]

er, me. it makes ME go hmm. not hm. i don't know who that is.

Micropenis? We've gone way beyond small now, that's got to be a health problem right there. I think you're just really unlucky Mili. This is getting a long in the tooth for me.

I sincerely think this study is bullcrap, and its been sloppily proven in this thread that by the same sort of "study" american men and indian men supposedly have genitals from 5 to 6 inches. Take that for what its worth I suppose.

The fact this topic was momentarily so popular says to me, it was time to gather round an old stereotype/racist dynamic and give it new life. Maybe a new generation had forgotten to consider Desi and Chinese people inferior, and there had to be someone to remind everybody?

Individual ancedotes go so far. I've been with woman (or women I won't say) who have themselves dated guys from many different ethnicities, and...well, I am confortably not in the low range. There. After all that.

Silly ones, penis Envy is macacaroach.

but there really is not much you can do with a micropenis. i know my sample size is small, but i also can't believe that i would be so unlucky with my own men.

I smelleth a troll. EVERY desi guy this person has been with had a "micropenis"? How does one find SIX men who each have that in common?

I didn't really pay that much attention to this issue until now, sort of took it as a joke or something, but I JUST SAW JAY LENO make a wisecrack about it a few minutes ago on his show...first he mentioned the results of the study and then said something to the effect of "you might want to mention this next time someone at tech support gets snippy with you". THAT SUCKS! Now I'm pissed. It took something like humiliation of our people at a NATIONAL level to make me stop and think about my opinion about this whole thing. I agree with Sahej, I doubt the research here is beyond reproach. This is pure bullshit. Who funded this study and why? If any of you had seen Leno say that joke, you'd be pissed too. If I do a study that claims to show that (for example) African people are less intelligent than Europeans, is Jay Leno going to make a joke about it on TV? This is a public image disaster for us. But there's nothing we can really do about it now.

I smelleth a troll. EVERY desi guy this person has been with had a "micropenis"? How does one find SIX men who each have that in common?

Perhaps she knoweth not what an *erect* penis is? I know, I know, there are some women who don't manage to excite any guy...
even a desi fob type (snarrrrk).

Anyway, the pathetic thing is that people (starting from the venerable BBC, no less) were so eager to present it as a racial/national generalization.

60% of Indian men below average? Assuming the average is Caucasian, it means that 50% of Caucasian men are below average.

Of course, nobody presents it that way, it is presented purely as "Indian men have tiny..."

Anyway, I'm still trying to come up with a few good comebacks to anybody who tries to one-up me with this. Just to be mentally prepared. Any ideas?

Come on guys. Public image disaster? 'Mentally prepared'? The willie doth not the man make.

Just to be mentally prepared. Any ideas

I just tell them I know Razib.

"I smelleth a troll. EVERY desi guy this person has been with had a "micropenis"? How does one find SIX men who each have that in common?"

See, this is what gets me. 6 guys, all way under average, and the only response is that I'm a troll? Or that I don't know what an erect penis is? *snort* Good lord, I might as well not take my chances on Indian guys if this is the sort of defensiveness or dismissiveness that accompanies the penis, no matter what size.

See, this is what gets me. 6 guys, all way under average, and the only response is that I'm a troll? Or that I don't know what an erect penis is? *snort* Good lord, I might as well not take my chances on Indian guys if this is the sort of defensiveness or dismissiveness that accompanies the penis, no matter what size.

Good idea....and while your at it improving your 'n', I hope you have better luck dogdging micropenis'. As you stated, you should start with the east sample sample.

Milli, allow me to invite you to an updated version of the old nursery dare: "I'll show mine if you show yours."

Amitabh @ 357,

I would not make much of Leno's comment. I find him routinely cracking sexist/racist jokes - Consider for example his particular liking for women 'catfights' - I have stopped watching him for this reason.

this is the sort of defensiveness or dismissiveness that accompanies the penis,

Penis-defensiveness: Not a characteristic unique to Indian guys, I'm afraid. Try the next non-Indian dude you're with about his 'micropenis' and see the amount of lovin' you get in return.

But really, if 6 out of 10 Indian guys are short, I'm guessing you're in luck on the next one :D

Who sets the international standards, I'd like her job!

I know, Cinnamon Rani, imagine having that job title on your passport...International Penis Standards Officer... ;)

Poor Indian guys, always being beaten down and emasculated by everyone from their own womenfolk to the Man. If the survey was in Bombay as someone said though, then Siddhartha's point about different local environmental factors is important. Pollution? Stress? Overwork?...

There must be a reason all those white hippie ladies go to Goa, maybe all the talent's down south?...

This is a public image disaster for us. But there's nothing we can really do about it now.

I love it how we need to mount a Positive Penis PR campaign now. On the bright side, having the opposite stereotype hasn't really helped African American men do better in those other areas of life like health, education and average income. Remember 'White Chicks' where the blonde girl's in the wheelchair because she had sex with a black guy? I wouldn't want that stereotype either.

I think we could argue (Razib, I know you've admitted to giant cock-ness publicly, but could use your help with statistics here), that since we make up a bigger proportion of the world's population, that condoms are too big, and that Indian and Asian men aren't the problem? Indian and Chinese men make up 1/3 of the world's male population, and condoms weren't socially acceptible or readily available or many in these countries till recently. So maybe the condom needs a makeover, because I guess according to the world's population the 'average' size is smaller than condom sizes because condom sizes are based on the western market.

Either way it's funny to see very educated males reacting to all of this in all those predictable ways :) If someone said my boobies were too small I probably wouldn't care, or at least not as much as some of the PR-campaign planners. How many people were surveyed, like 1,000? They survey more people when asking them ridiculous questions like whether man really landed on the moon. Don't let the myth become a reality, boys :)

oops. 1/6th I guess.

Tash,

You've accepted the paradigm and are coming up with reasons Desi men have smaller than average lunds. There's almost no reason to accept that contention based on this study. Before you start explaining the findings based on pollution or stress, you'd need to know if the findings are correct. But I grant you, even before this study, the stereotype of indian men had been that we are somehow lesser men, and this article fits into that. Its not about the Man or "our women" beating us down. There is a dynamic that plays out though, and its one in which asian men are considered less masculine. I suggest its a racist dynamic that has little to do with reality, as most racist dynamics don't.

Amitabh, I think this kind of joke would've been made before, its the same kind of joke that gets made periodically. I think we'd be fooling ourselves to think that this kind of joke is something new.

The shock here is that I think we desi thought the time had passed when we were going to have to operate under such stereotypes. The generation coming to age now in the US is the most diverse in the history of the country, and I think sometimes we forget older generations are still locked into different paradigms; ones that find such kinds of stereotypes funny and relevent.

Based on comments made on Sepia Mutiny, and other sources I have put together an analysis of this entire issue! This analysis of this issue draws from analysis made on this comment page, and external sources. I hope that the "intellectual skeptics" who actually have no balls when they are not on the internet challenge and question this analysis for self-serving ego and self-esteem purposes or to try to impress the female/male desi bloggers like a kutha/kuthi and instead of actually using their brains and "cyber courage" and start questioning and challenging the BBC bullshit! In other words don't challenge me, I'm not your enemy! And for some reason I think that there will be one damn fool that will try to play "devils advocate" and questions both sides, don't be an ass! Anyways here it is. Once again all I did was extract and put together people's comments and other sources to analyze this article and the findings. Big up to Sahej and other academic sources. And also reference of the shameful, ridiculous BBC article is now on Wikipedia, search "penis size" and you'll see. Can anyone add/change the analysis to that wikipedia article by adding to it THE WHOLE TRUTH giving refernce to the Slate.com article? Anyways here is the analysis. I suggest that people copy this analysis and email it too everyone they know!!! EVERYONE!!!! Including the Sepia Mutiny bloggers who will hopefully make another blog about this article revealing the WHOLE TRUTH. In hope that this analysis that all have created will act as some sort of resistance (no matter how big or small) to the BBC bullshit that has now been spread like the smell of tharka on Saturday Night Live and Jay Leno. Here it is...

ANALYSIS OF THE BBC ARTICLE

Upon closer analysis, this article uses facts to create a twisted tale. This article is pretty much “post-colonial subjugation through emasculation (Sepia Mutiny)” a possible manifestation of racism. It is actually better to analyze the article first and you will find that the article, like most western white media, illustrated the facts to put a negative spin on “other racialized bodies” and in this case the target is South Asian men:

Another article that specified the study (the Slate article) stated that, “As per international standards, most condoms are 150 mm to 180 mm (5.9 to 7 inches) in length and 44 to 56 mm (1.70 to 2 inches) in width. But data collected in Mumbai till 2001 showed that 60% of the participants measured 126 to 156 mm (4.96 to 6.14 inches) in length and 30% between 100 and 125 mm (3.93 to 4.92 inches). ” Adding to this, many studies (in which urologist or other researchers studying the male penis, measured the subjects themselves with a measuring tape as opposed to the self-measurement method done by participants in the Kinsey institute surveys and other penis size surveys) such as the studies done by the American Journal of Urology, International Journal of Impotence Research, LifeStyles Condoms on penis size indicated that contrary to the popular myth of an average penis size being 7 to 8 inches the average human male penis size is 5 to 6 inches. In light of those facts, that means according to the very own studies and findings of the Indian Council of Medical Research, most Indian men in Mumbai are within the average penis size. (If you look up sizes on the internet there are still many who use the flawed Kinsey measurements and methods and contend that the averages range from 6-8 inches but academic sources state otherwise. Now it is also important to note that even the considered “average” is flawed in many respects but that is another issue entirely.

In regards to this study, how is this any different from what the Lifestyle Condom Survey of Americans concluded back in 2001? A study by Lifestyles Condom Co. in 2001 (http://www.free-condom-stuff.com/education/research.htm) indicated that about two-thirds of the 300 college-aged American males ranged from between 5.1 and 6.2 inches. We can come to the same conclusions about Americans: "Condoms made according to international sizes are too large for a majority of Americans (66% to be exact)." Or "Condoms designed to meet international size specifications are too big for many American men as their penises fall short of what manufacturers had anticipated." Or "Initial findings of a Lifestyle Condoms Co penis survey revealed that 66 percent of American men on spring break in Cancun had penises about 2.4 cm (one inch) shorter than those condoms catered for."

And the BBC article failed to note that in the study that, "the failure rate was lower in clinical trials, and many complaints were about tearing, not slippage, so the main problem is proper use, not size (slate.com)." Adding to this the average human male penis size is 5 to 6 inches and the article stated that 60% of the Indian men were in this range; it may be that the international sizes of condoms are flawed themselves. Skeptics of this article also question if they have done studies in other countries, including the ones that "set" the international standards, to see how many men actually "measure up" to those standards? And how is this international standard set?

AND, they selected over 1200 males which were actually 1500 males and all of these males were from Mumbai (and some from Delhi alone). The article says "the scientists even checked their sample was representative of India as a whole" but failed to mention that the men surveyed were from Mumbai (and some from Delhi) ALONE. From the analysis of people in one state they generalized an entire country and an entire population! That may be the average for Mumbai alone not all of India. India has over 20 states and many union territories and contrary to popular belief India has a great deal of diversity. That is like surveying the size of shlongs in the New York State finding the average in New York and stating that, the average shlong size of adult males in New York is the average shlong size for all adult males in America even though there are over 40 different areas (States) in America. Another issue raised was that since an estimated 350-400 million people in India are below the poverty line, this article never discussed the issues of malnutrition in India along with the pollution in Mumbai in regards to human development as a factor and as a variable.

Some people called this article reckless journalism because it doesn't tell the whole truth and uses the facts to create a negative spin. This article could have instead focused on the AIDS epidemic in India and discuss how to get Indian men to use condoms rather than pushing very sensitive buttons.
I think that this contaminated article is really sad because now it will be added to the many, many, many negative stereotypes made about Indian people in India and even abroad. And the more negative stereotypes of Indian people, regardless of who it is about whether males, females, in the end it still hurts all the same.

So my suggestion is if someone tries to stereotype or ridicule you because you are brown or Desi based on your “size” challenge them intellectually, or (excuse the vulgarity) pull out your shlong slap them in the face with it and measure it on their damn forehead (once again you have my sincerest apologies for this vulgarity but there is only a certain amount of abusive media that we can all take).

Either way it's funny to see very educated males reacting to all of this in all those predictable ways :) If someone said my boobies were too small I probably wouldn't care

Well, boobies are a secondary sexual characteristic, whereas...Also, boob size is pretty apparent for an external observer, whereas...

I think it is a primal reaction, and needs a whole lot of thinking to overcome these issues of self-esteem. (I should know, since I meet almost no standard of male beauty in the US :) ). Sexual anxiety is quite independent of education, as are stereotypes and prejudices. Otherwise there would be no glass ceilings for anyone in society.

As Sahej said, what I found more shocking was how a respectable media channel (the beeb, not some random tabloid) casually presented the study as a gross racial generalization, with no responsible fact-checking(!!) that such an article should entail in today's usually-PC society. I just think that's so depressing.

My usual reaction is to simply ignore stereotypes and do and be what I want to. But stuff like this in media makes doing that just a little bit more difficult everytime.

Donald Turnip surveyed his plush suite in downtown Montana with satisfaction. "Boys and toys" he said "you have come a long way as apprentices and are ready for the final shaolin showdown. When I first came to this hallowed puritanical country from Usilampatti, I dreamt that I would make love to the women here in Victorian style. I came armed with verse and prose from D.H Lawrence, James Joyce and Marcel Proust. I quoted from Gray's anatomy, Masters and Johnsons, and left the Kama Sutra out because...well...that would have fit the stereotype. Sure, I was endowed in an average fashion, in a manner of speaking. No dice. We live in a time that leaves nothing to the imagination and my strange 19th century manner of making love was tit-tered at and some even snarkily whispered evil rumors behind my back, Jay Fenol included. I put out in a vaccuum. The secret to success therefore is not in the size of your pen-is the size of your wallet. Oh! dont get me wrong, the sword is mightier than the pen, especially when unsheathed but there are other ways. Remember Enter the Dragon and the array of devious hands. Now go array yourself with artificial erotic devices, become an investment banker with a summer house in Martha's and you will never again lack for female company while counting your beans. Merry Christmas and forget about the ghost of Christmas past, present or future, Go screwdge!"

Disclaimer : all characters are fictional and do not correspond to any real person living or dead, especially dead.

On second thoughts, fuck it all. I've done well enough so far with my current international-average-sized equipment...and hopefully will keep going that way. In any case, personality and confidence are what I have to rely on anyway.

Thumbs down to the BBC. They've lost serious respect from me. I shall not look at this thread no mo'.

This shit ain't funny anymore...Mahesh (#372) spells it out nicely...but the damage is done...the public cares about the punchline, not the academic response. So, based on a flawed study, that would indict American men just as much as it does desis, we have the pleasure of getting to hear jokes about this on national, no, GLOBAL television. I wonder if Indian kids in school are getting teased about this. The BBC really let the ball drop on this one. Anyway, I don't think there's anything more at this point that's useful to say about this so I'm out. Sahej, you're right...if this study had been about Norwegians, I wouldn't take the time to fact-check or verify the validity or methods of the study, I'd just be laughing at Norwegians.

The Turnip,

You're peeking everyone's curiosity now, what kind of pen do you wield? I wonder if it's a fountain pen, one that you'd dip into an ink bottle gently and often.

sic temper tyrannis@377: if the glove fits...! fountain pen? do you mean the old Pilot Pena type variety and Parker ink? gone are those days. Nowadays its all true type and Gothic. But I do like the imagery you have produced. It belongs to a gentler and kinder day.

This news spread. Saturday Night Live and Jay Leno both took shots at Indian men. And just go onto yahoo.com and type in "Indian men have small penises" and you will see the millions of blogs in Canada and the US taking shots at ALL INDIAN MEN!!! Even racist comments questioning Indian masculinity in comparison to white masculinity. This some more bullshit... people spread analysis #372 to EVERYONE! I'm filled with rage and dismay! Fuck!

Man, you guys are freaking out about this unnecessarily.

It's a silly story. Comedians are picking up on a silly story. That's not unexpected. Racists are jumping on a silly story. That's not unexpected either.

But comedians will forget this for the next funny thing that comes along, and racists' heads are filled with all sorts of idiotic and inaccurate information anyway. In a month or two very few people will remember this story. And if anyone DOES bring it up, you can throw that analysis at them to shut them up. Or (if they are hott) just say "well, why don't you see for yourself" and then leer at them.

Guys, of course the way this was spun was racist, and lots of racist white people jeered at it on blogs or elsewhere. But what it uncovered was pre-existent prejudices, which suggests a good deal of hatred was waiting there festering, waiting for the right thing to latch onto and find expression and I will be honest with you -- sometimes it is good to be reminded that you are disliked or hated. So you know exactly where you stand.

sometimes it is good to be reminded that you are disliked or hated. So you know exactly where you stand.

wow, i wuz expecting 1,000 comments by now. this thread really climaxed and ran out of steam.

It is truly eyebrow-raising -- and possibly an indication of the different dynamics regarding South Asians on the two sides of the Atlantic -- that this issue has become so high-profile in the US that it's been referenced on SNL and Jay Leno, yet nothing on similar scale has happened here in the UK, the actual home of the BBC.....

.....And, of course, the country where South Asians comprise the biggest non-white population.

some whiner would complain it was 'anti-asian' and 'islamophobic' prolly :)

It is truly eyebrow-raising -- and possibly an indication of the different dynamics regarding South Asians on the two sides of the Atlantic -- that this issue has become so high-profile in the US that it's been referenced on SNL and Jay Leno, yet nothing on similar scale has happened here in the UK, the actual home of the BBC.....

There pre-existing discourse here about phallus dimensions - alleged white inferiority in relation to blacks; and thus size jokes, with all their attendant anxieties, always get a good laugh.

You're probably right, Razib ;)

It would also be a much more explosive (and, considering recent/current events in the UK, politically-sensitive) issue here. However, as I've mentioned a couple of times previously on SM, on the whole the mainstream British media has significantly moved on when it comes to dealing with racially-sensitive issues, especially about South Asians. I could imagine some mainstream British comedians using this to make Leno-like jokes at our expense back in the 80s, but not now.

It's very ironic that all this would still be acceptable in the US, the home of political correctness. Oh, the oppression ! oh, the objectification ! Oh, the exotificationalizationism !

Okay, joking aside, look at it this way. The average white American is a lot taller than the average Indian "back home". However, both fall into almost-similar ranges regarding penis size. Extrapolate this line of thought and you'll reach certain conclusions. This is something else which can be added to the ammunition collated in post #372.

So don't worry, folks. *grins wryly*

It's very ironic that all this would still be acceptable in the US, the home of political correctness. Oh, the oppression ! oh, the objectification ! Oh, the exotificationalizationism !

not all sensitivities are created equal. look at the way the liberal media had no problem commenting on bobby jindal's 'dark skin' and 'black hair' in 2003 vs. how they would treat an african american politican. overall i think it is a good thing, i think hyper-sensitivity is good for 'community leaders' or some of the ghetto-lovin'-idealists (bidismoker), but not as cool for those of us who make our way in a world that is going to be non-brown. the taunting of white males in pop culture is in part an admission that they are privileged and have 'made it.'

razib,

All that was important was conveyed in the seminal post. Whatever else that followed was circumlocution purely for the amusement of others. Wait another day and all the vigor that once was will return with great virility and firmness of conviction.

not all sensitivities are created equal. look at the way the liberal media had no problem commenting on bobby jindal's 'dark skin' and 'black hair' in 2003 vs. how they would treat an african american politican.

That's an interesting comment. Obviously the sensitivity pertaining to African Americans is because of the legacy of slavery -- which more-or-less corresponds to the sensitivity regarding West Indians, Africans and South Asians in the UK as a result of both slavery (in relation to the first two groups) and colonialism (affecting all three groups).

So does this mean that racist remarks -- about penis size or anything else -- about Chinese people or (particularly) Hispanics are acceptable in mainstream American culture these days ? Indeed, if a similar survey was conducted on Latin Americans, would SNL & Jay Leno make jokes about it ? Would they be able to get away with it if they did ?

It all depends on what you're being hyper-sensitive about.

I don't give two shits about this study both because it's poorly done, it certainly does NOT apply to me, and it's just such a silly story that nobody whose opinion I would care about will remember it in a few months. It's just fluff.

But there are some elements of racism/nationalism that are more annoying than others. I get upset when my behavior or values are stereotyped. You can give that a label if you want ("exotification", etc...), and it might well fit, but I think everyone gets it even without one.

No, because Indians are perceived as just another group of immigrants while the other groups you've mentioned all have histories of exploitation and struggle.

So does this mean that racist remarks -- about penis size or anything else -- about Chinese people or (particularly) Hispanics are acceptable in mainstream American culture these days ?

there are shades. the sensitivity bar is very high for african americans. less so for other groups. can you imagine rosie o'donnell doing an ebonics mimic on national TV?

razib,

Just to allay any confusion, my comment was in response to your earlier post:

wow, i wuz expecting 1,000 comments by now. this thread really climaxed and ran out of steam.

Jai Singh,

I think the penchant comedians have with Indians is that we have been made fun of decades, since Apu and even earlier with our accent in films like Gandhi and such, and much, much earlier with actors wearing brownface. In popular imagination, we're the butt of jokes. Whether or not this is a good thing is up for debate, but among the "heartland" Americans who have never seen an Indian in real life, we're Apu. Folks in the UK are different because almost every one of them has at least met one Indian in their life.

Jai Singh : High profile issue in the US? Huh? A study about penis sizes is always pretty good comedy fodder, especially for the comedy-lame, like Leno and SNL. Give me Craig Ferguson over Leno any day of the week. Wait, did he do a joke about the study?

Anyway, did you all read the comments to the Gawker post? Everyone was all, like, Neel Shah is hawt, I don't care about the study. So, see? All you need to do is be cute......problem solved.

Folks in the UK are different because almost every one of them has at least met one Indian in their life.

please remember than the UK is 91% non-hispanic white, and there is a lot of residential segregation (e.g., brownz live in london and north english urban towns). the USA is 69% non-hispanic white. so i'm not sure that i buy it (UK is 4.4% brown, vs. somewhat less than 1% in the USA).

Actually, Neal's point is salient. Immigrant humor has always been pretty standard for the US, and often it was of a benign sort (and a not so benign sort). Remember all those Scandanavian jokes in Sonja Henje skating comedies from the thirties? Come on guys, you don't remember?

skandinavians are hawt. immigrant human changes. the jokes about italian americans are descended in direct line from perceptions they were illiterate and criminal peasants. the former though are generally less innocuous than the latter in terms of stereotypes.

I am adding a comment to contribute towards the 400 comment mark.

immigrant humor.

razib: what?

PS: Some of us do not have the blond fetish you do :) New James Bond excepted.

Also -- rural America has never seen an Indian? Wtf?!!? Have you ever driven through rural America? Who owned the hotels and gas stations? I can tell you from personal experience that there are tons of Desis sprinkled throughout the least cosmopolitan areas of the Deep South and Midwest.

also, brownz are often the local docs in rural/cold areas that native born docs won't going.

MD, fixing typo.

razib,

I don't recall ever mentioning the word "white" yet you're bringing it into discussion somehow. Americans in the heartland (away from Cali/NY/DC) are not 1% Indian. The mean is 1% when you include places like NJ/NY/Cali. Take them out, and the percentage of American which is Indian plummets. African Americans are well dispersed, across the south and elsewhere, as are Hispanics. And it's unfair to pinpoint whites as the only group that revels in jokes about Indians; blacks, hispanics, and many east-asians are just as fond of humor at our expense. Even middle-easterners like jokes about Indians. It's not a White v. Indian issue. It's an issue about association and what do people associate Indian with? Say "Asian" and in the US it's associated with Chinese, in the UK it's associated with Indian. Similarly, say "Indian" and the connotations it conjures differ between the US and the UK. The UK has a history with India, and the percentage of Indians in the UK as you yourself pointed out is higher than in the US. But why just look at the percentage of Indians today? Cultural diffusion takes time; you need to integrate Indians over time (literally, take the Sum of w(j) times Indians(j) times Time(j) where Indians(j) represent the percentage of Indians in that culture at time j -- and w(j) is the discounting factor to weight present years more highly than past years. Pick a discounting method of your choice.) The integral for the US is negligible since we were banned between 1890/1920 - 1965 and no sizable population existed here until 1980. The integral for the UK is different, thus the sum impact is higher.

Yeah but the individuals you meet will affect your perception as well.

Most of the Indians in the States today are doing quite well for themselves. They're the doctors, the store owners, and often the landowners in smaller towns across the country. That puts them in a position above much of the population, especially in the South and the Rust Belt. So while there's definitely mockery, it's mockery based in insecurity. "How did this weird dude with the funny accent come out of nowhere and make so much money?"

That's different from the UK where you have a population that is older, generally poorer, more segregated, and more politically active. It's a pretty traditional minority. So it embodies more traditional minority identity politics.

sic, chill. a lot of wut you say is correct. wut got up your butt? (getting back tangentially to the point of this thread)

That's different from the UK where you have a population that is older, generally poorer, more segregated, and more politically active.'

wut you're trying to say is "losers" :) but anyway, all those are much more true for muslims, less for sikhs, and definitely not as true for east african derived hindus.

I don't recall ever mentioning the word "white" yet you're bringing it into discussion somehow. Americans in the heartland (away from Cali/NY/DC) are not 1% Indian. The mean is 1% when you include places like NJ/NY/Cali.

and if you want to get precise, it isn't like the 4.4% of brown british are equally distributed across the country.

I'm not trying to say "losers" at all. The whole history of migration to the UK was different than from the US. The US choked back on immigration hard early on, so that (for the most part) only professionals could get in. Also, it's been possible to airlift into these small towns and live completely separate from the racial politics if you had enough money. And finally, there wasn't much of a pre-existing idea of what an Indian "should" be in the United States. We were never subjects under the American flag.

I mean I don't think African-Americans or Hispanics are "losers" because they have their histories with this country to overcome. It's just a crapshoot.

I'm not trying to say "losers" at all.

i know, i was putting my words in my words in your mouth. i read picked politics (a UK brown site). it is notable to me how much more loserish the muslims are than non-muslims. they whine and kvetch, but if they had an economically successful community they prolly wouldn't be so 'activist.' makes me appreciate the stupid stuff that the upper-middle-class commentariat here complain about. i mean, basically if you give fat fatima a weird look because she's running around in a garbage bag to protect her fat rolls from your male gaze you are an 'islamophobe.'

i'm caricaturing, but i think it captures the direction of the difference in discourse :) my point is that hindus, and to some extent sikhs, in the UK aren't quite as loserish unless they are community professionals. they have demanding jobs.

as yes, i am generally casting aspersions at the way black american 'community leaders' comport themselves. but i give them some slack since slavery and jim crow were real. i am less inclined to give slack to immigrant groups who want to jump on the 'whitey be oppressin' me, though his country so great i got to immigrate to it!' bandwagon.

razib,

sic, chill. a lot of wut you say is correct. wut got up your butt?

As an INTP, I'm pretty much always chill and emotionally detached from anything I read or write. The closest to getting my eyebrows to raise is having to read n3t-sp33k like "wut" -- not that I'm suggesting you write differently, I'm just saying that however little spelling affects me, all the rest affects me less.

my point is that hindus, and to some extent sikhs, in the UK aren't quite as loserish

Not sure why you're inserting the words "to some extent" here, Razib buddy. British Sikhs are as successful as British Hindus are, and are represented considerably in the upper echelons of the list of richest British South Asians. There are quite a few millionaire Sikhs around, including (perhaps "especially") from the older generation here, living in absolutely huge houses.

British Sikhs are as successful as British Hindus are, and are represented considerably in the upper echelons of the list of richest British South Asians. There are quite a few millionaire Sikhs around, including (perhaps "especially") from the older generation here, living in absolutely huge houses.

numbers? i know that east african hindus (only a small minority of east africans were muslims, mostly ismailis i believe) are the most successful brown sub-group. they are about half of hindus. so my expectation is that hindus will be superior to sikhs in income & educational attainment. i've seen ethnographic data which suggests more traditionalism and endogamy in sikhs than hindus, which implies to me less assimilation.

Independent of the financial well-being though, isn't there generally a less-flattering set of stereotypes regarding South Asians in the UK than in the US?

jai,

i found this in 15 seconds:

In terms of religion, Smith and Tomlinson (1989:136) have reported that within the Indian group, Muslims had lower performance than both Sikhs and Hindus with Hindus being slightly ahead of Sikhs.

cite

if you remove east african hindus from the 'hindu' category hindus and sikhs might compare, but the former really beef up the hindu group. i invite counter stats.

Razib, I always love reading your posts. I have an image in my mind of you with pointy ears like a Vulcan, or like those androids from science fiction movies that say, 'But what is this human emotion called love? It does not compute, my circuitry and cybor-intelligence is contradicted' ;-)

isn't there generally a less-flattering set of stereotypes regarding South Asians in the UK than in the US?

that they blow up subways?

no, seriously, there is probably more nuance and variety in the UK. they know brownz very well compared to americans. but, there is a lot of variance, and some brownz are a definite problem minority.

parity? perhaps
Sikh, Jewish and Hindu households are the most likely to own their own homes. Around three-quarters or more of each group did so in Great Britain in 2001 (82 per cent, 77 per cent and 74 per cent respectively). Muslim and Buddhist households were the least likely to be homeowners (52 per cent and 54 per cent respectively).

cite. i might withdraw my qualification about sikhs now, the differences might be too small and varied between sikhs and hindus re: status to be definite as that between non-muslim and muslim brownz.

more parity?
Unemployment rates of men by religious group: Muslim - 13%, Sikh - 7%, Hindu - 5%, Christian - 4%, Jewish - 3%

cite

LoL!

numbers?

Dunno. Personal experience and observation of annual "rich Asian" lists & awards. Lots of Sikhs involved, including the more "traditional" kind.

so my expectation is that hindus will be superior to sikhs in income & educational attainment.

Hmm, not necessarily. Doctors (for example) aren't the highest earning group amongst British desis these days. The richest younger desis I personally know are Sikhs who do IT contracting and were on 6-figure salaries several years before they hit 30. Plenty of older-generation Sikhs have also done very well via businesses, multiple restaurants and property investment. It depends on which circles one moves within, but there isn't exactly a shortage of Mercs, BMWs and large houses amongst the British Sikh community.

Since I've mentioned the medics, there are also plenty of Sikh doctors around, from both the older & younger generations.

more traditionalism and endogamy in sikhs than hindus, which implies to me less assimilation.

The former is correct but this sometimes hasn't hurt their ability to succeed. Also, the majority of 2nd-Gen Sikhs in the UK aren't "traditional" in terms of their religious practice or general lifestyle; even though they have a higher rate of endogamy, that doesn't necessarily mean they are "unassimilated" in other aspects of their behaviour. They're marginally less Westernised in some aspects compared to their Hindu counterparts -- although this is less prevalent these days and times are changing fast -- but bear in mind also that the biggest driving force in dynamic 2nd-Gen British Indian culture has mostly come from the Sikh contingent. We don't have the "nerdy desi" stereotype on this side of the Atlantic, mang ;)

jai singh, i already concede the point. though i would bet there is a small statistical difference between sikhs and hindus, i am less confident in regards to which way it would go given a metric. i couldn't say the same for muslims vs. non-muslims among browns.

that being said, your personal anecdotes wouldn't have convinced me. the richest malaysian is a tamil, but tamils are now the poorest malay group. also, there are cases like fiji where one ethnic groups exhibits A LOT more socioeconomic variance than the other (indians do vs. native fijians). this means that the wealthiest and the poorest in the population could be from ethnic group A, even if B was on average wealthier.

Neal,

isn't there generally a less-flattering set of stereotypes regarding South Asians in the UK than in the US?

It depends. Varies according to the particular community, and has also changed over the years.

Used to be: Er, "nerdy desis", easy targets for ridicule and "jokes", etc etc. Especially prevalent during the 70s & 80s when the UK-born majority was quite young and the parents' generation were the main flagbearers of desidom.

90s: The UK-born contingent grew up and to some extent jumped on the gangsta bandwagon. Plus GGM etc.

2001 onwards: Bang bang, jihad, come the Khilafat, etc etc.

But I think it's generally known here that Indians on the whole are well-behaved and academically & professionally more successful than average (2nd highest-performing British group after the Chinese). Unfortunately the Pakistanis are particularly problematic, as Tony Blair also explicitly stated during his recent speeches (some links on the News tab).

Razib,

I know you concede the point, bondhu -- I was typing my previous message while you were posting yours ;)

None of which answers the question of who has the biggest cucumber, of course.....

Razib,

If you go into the article deeper you'll find additional information that exacerbates the household disparity:

Muslim households are the most likely to experience overcrowding. One third of Muslim households (32 per cent) lived in overcrowded accommodation in 2001, as did 22 per cent of Hindu and 19 per cent of Sikh households. Just 6 per cent of Christian households experienced overcrowding. The high proportions for Muslim, Sikh and Hindu households are, to some extent, a reflection of their large size. Their average sizes were 3.8, 3.6 and 3.2 people respectively, compared with 2.3 people among Christian and Jewish households. [1]

While Muslim households seem the most, to use your vernacular, "looserish", the Hindu and Sikh households don't exactly scream success with 22% and 19% deemed overcrowded.

Looking purely at households who own a home without looking at the composition of that household is dangerous since I could, in theory, buy a home and shove 42 Ugandans (to be random) in there and consider them all homeowners.

sic,

the sum of the metrics implies loserish, not just one, of course. i am willing to accept that brownz in general are more loserish than whites in the UK, not a big deal (there are arguments about whether japanese american higher incomes are skewed by residence in the western US).

I'd like to point out that the only times I was ever problematic in the UK were when I didn't get enough coffee in the morning. And when I bitch-slapped the drag queen who was giving me attitude, but I don't think that's really what Blair was referring to.

sin, expectation.

Unless Blair was the drag queen...

Anyway, I'm still trying to come up with a few good comebacks to anybody who tries to one-up me with this. Just to be mentally prepared. Any ideas?

say something back about the last white girl you made scream

For those of you who read this site because you are considering becoming involved with a diasporic macaca, I would caution that you not jump to any conclusions about his member until you’ve had a chance to inspect it for yourself. Emigration leads to changes in diet and other health factors, which results in changes in body type. Just because your macaca’s grandpapa might have had a teeny weeny doesn’t mean your wholesome, corn fed, suburban cul-de-sac raised American desi shares the predicament.

This is another ploy by the british and the new british (Amrika) to boost their own confidence by putting the asians, arabs, indians, mexicans, blacks down in one way or the other. Listen to the white ladies in UK and US tell about their men and their shortcomings :)

And when I bitch-slapped the drag queen who was giving me attitude

Sin, your comment involves HOMOSEXUALITY again!!! You have corrupted my pure good-desi-boy mind forever!!!
Vaat will your mother think, bhai? :D

That may be the average for Mumbai alone not all of India.

Hmmm, so the macho Shiv Sena and RSS types are compensating for their short pencil dicks?

Another issue raised was that since an estimated 350-400 million people in India are below the poverty line, this article never discussed the issues of malnutrition in India along with the pollution in Mumbai in regards to human development as a factor and as a variable.

Good point. I suspect that malnutrition also plays a part in the very low tested IQs of indians. Ditto for the sorry performance of desis in international sports.

the next new male desi hero/god will be the brown urologist who proves this study wrong by countering it with their own.
any takers?
i'm sure a shrine will even be built in your honor.

Chick pea-

This study hasn't been disproven to you at all? no hands on experience, hehe. I for one think its only cause the majority of desi dudes in south asia are tiny, like literally skinny and short. I bet if they did this study on 1rst gens in the states or any first world country, it would be proven wrong.

My experience has been i would say the exact opposite. Like most normal, athletic, none-pussy kids, my friends and i used to compare shit and stuff as juvenile deliquents. Turns out i was the biggest out of our entire group, to the point where girls in hs would ask to see it! Must say not a bad rumor to have about you.

Point being is this, this study may be correct in india, not for desi's abroad. I personally could give a fuck less, cause i've never had any complaints.

-

Ditto for the sorry performance of desis in international sports.

This is not only malnutrition at work, but also lack of physical space, coaching, equipment, and lack of adequate playtime.

Point being is this, this study may be correct in india, not for desi's abroad. I personally could give a fuck less, cause i've never had any complaints.

It's not about YOU or any particular person...it's about how the media is ridiculing Indians (which is bad enough) on the basis of a severely flawed study (which is even worse).

It's not about YOU or any particular person...it's about how the media is ridiculing Indians (which is bad enough) on the basis of a severely flawed study (which is even worse).

haha, you crack me up, "its about the media." There will always be shit like this. Crying and writing letters about how indians are portrayed, and taking this whole proper, legal, approach..its commendable. All i'm saying is that a study showing the exact opposite wouldn't be news to anyone...same reason why Fox News is the most watched News Channel. While this study may be flawed, would a valid study that portrays indian badly be okay?

"Indian Minority Group Earns the Most Per Family of any Sub Group in the United States.... They also give the least amount of money to charities of any Sub Group....less than the mexicans who mow their lawns"

-i'm not actually 100% sure if this is correct, but i recall seeing a similar type stat on Census2000

BROOKLYN FUNK ESSENTIALS - I GOT CASH
~seriously download this shit, you will die laughing~

I choose to see reality. If i was really offended, i would rather cook up a study which shows that 95% of penile implants are for white anglo saxon and make some hilarious conclusions. Much like past Stephen Glass article's in The New Republic.

Regarding media, what is it like 96% of all the media you see all day, minus sepiamutiny, is controlled by 7 news companies around the world..i think thats from like 1998 or something, but still.

Leno made another crack about this last night.

One thing to note about Leno's jokes is that he changes the facts as reported in the article: Rather than saying that Indian men in this study didn't measure up to international standards, Leno says that the Indian men were reported smaller compared to American men. He specifically said "American".

A lot of this, as mentioned above, has to do with how white men view themselves -- small in endowment vs. black men. So a chance to take a shot at say, Asians or Indians (I've seen Dave Attel, Comedy Central comic, take penis-joke shots on East Asians) makes them feel better about themselves.

"Ahimsa" is a guideline in Hinduism, yes, but principles of non-violence such as "ahimsa" are found in most major religions. 'Thou shalt not kill' comes to mind. Note the lack of qualifiers in Romans 13:9. I think it is not to be interpreted as an absolute there either.

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Non-cruelty:
Vegetarianism is sometimes justified on the basis on non-cruelty, although I personally question applying it in this context. A textual analysis of the Mahabhartha reveal that non-cruelty (anrsamsya) occurs as the highest dharma more often than "ahimsa". A quote from wonderful "Rethinking the Mahabharata" by Prof. Hiltebeitel (who is a great guy by the way) :

Of the fifty-four instance I have found in the Mahabharata, the taly for different excellences said to be the "highest dharma" is anrsamsya, 8: truth, 5; ahimsa, 4; what is in the Veda, 2; offspring, 2...

oops, wrong post.

thge comment about punjabi folk songs with lyrics poking fun at men with small penises - ummm hello, this is in all music! across the globe! even hip hop and dancehall songs have tons of lyrics from women complaining or taking the piss out of men with small dicks!

k no1 mentiond brownz in canada spec TO n Vancouver here jus lyk ny minority lyk black n hispanicz poorer den whitey, crime all tha shit. In Vancouer lota gorayz h8 us n hav all dese tingz abou surrey cuz lota violence in Canada most indianz r punjabi n sikh. Also lots of west indian & otha south asian. black n brown get along nicely n normally gangs n shit r of both. so yea in TO gurlz no punjabi aint small lyk otha guy sed Brown da way 2 get down long wit Black. Lyk no model minority shit here ask ppl abou Toronto's Northwest end. murda rate of 20+ sam wit unemployment n almos evn split btw southasian, west indian n black. so no shit in canada lyk tha

Im indian and im 14 and i have a 7 inch penis, but what kind of indians to be exact cuz im sikh, you must me talking about the hindus.