I wonder if fiji water will get any cheaper because of this...probably not. but seriously, Choudrhy was in power from 1997-2000. Also the military has a long history of supporting the indo-fijan. The fijan nationalists that toppled chaudhry's government in 2000 were kind of crazy and pretty much had the long term aim of nationalizing all the land in the country then returning it to sole ownership of indigineous fijans. I'm a little curious to know the motivations of the military. Are there maybe a large number of indians in the military? something to look into.

Vijay Singh for prime minister!

Are there maybe a large number of indians in the military?

The military and the police are overwhelmingly made up of ethnic Fijians.

I think the coup can probably best be understood as a function of average penis size between ethnic Fijians and Indo-Fijians. We already know we have bigger lunds than americans. But Polynesian people are historically quite good at football, so there is always that to factor in as well.

Also the military has a long history of supporting the indo-fijan.

i know one of the coups was to forestall indo-fijian control of an elected gov., so it is more complex than that. fiji is a cautionary tale of what happens you have two ethnic groups who are separated by many characteristics and divid a land 50/50 (or at least 50/50 before the 1987 coup). the native fijians culture isn't all that bad from what i have read insofar as the tend to take a relaxed attitude toward live and focus on the small things in life. that being said, their relative economic security through their communal rents on the indo-fijians have resulted in a culture which doesn't foster economic enterprise, so it makes sense that the private sector and professions would become dominated by indo-fijians. the flight of these sectors results in possible loss of communal revenue so of course the paramount chiefs don't want to ethnically cleanse the country.

p.s. one of the 1987 coups was based on blocking indo-fijian influence on the gov. sitiveni rabuka, the gen. who led one of the coups and was later PM, has said that indo-fijian assimilation is possible, but the key is to convert them to christianity.

He looks desi!

There's also a major cleavage amongst the Fijians, but it is little reported on. I had it explained to me once, but not well enough to sketch it out now.

You said, "major cleavage." :-D

The Fijians - many of whom are fundamentalist Christian - have also in the past been severely discriminatory against Hindus, and attempted forced conversions etc.

ethnic & religious demographics of fiji. the largest church is the methodist.

The infamous US "Freedom of Religion" report, which came into being partly at the behest of evangelists to pave the way for the conversion of the '10-40 WIndow', cited desecration of Hindu temples as a 'major concern' last year:

FIJI, November 15, 2005: Continuing desecration of Hindu temples in Fiji have been highlighted in an American government report. The US State Department's annual report on worldwide religious freedom says generally the situation in the Pacific is good, with almost all countries allowing freedom of worship. But the new US Ambassador to Fiji, Larry Dinger, says there are one or two concerns with religious attitudes held by a minority in the country. Dinger said the continuing problem of desecration of Hindu temples was "a serious problem that needs to end."

0uick flaming statement:

Brownz are generally pussies. If faced off with another muscle-flexing community in a bifurcated demographic scenario, they tend to go into hiding, witness Guyana, Fiji, etc. If Hindu, they also tend to convert to Christianity in very high numbers (if Muslim, no.) In Malaysia, they haven't been pushed around as much (though that's changing), because the Malays fear pan-Tamilism via the conduit of the Tamil Tigers, and they are not as wealthy, have less to lose, etc., though they've been pushed around enough there too.

If faced off with another muscle-flexing community in a bifurcated demographic scenario, they tend to go into hiding, witness Guyana, Fiji, etc.

well, in guyana, fiji and even trinidad, they don't control the military in terms of representation. doesn't matter what % of the population you are, bit the men with guns are of another ethnic group than you're screwed. in mauritius brownz are numerous enough to control things.

If Hindu, they also tend to convert to Christianity in very high numbers

this depends though. i had free access to the world christian database for a while, which tracks these things. there is variance, e.g., in guyana there is far less conversion than in trinidad. also, south indian groups like tamils in places such south africa and mauritius had far higher rates of conversion to christianity from hinduism than north indian groups. there is in this case a 'push' & a pull 'pull' (i.e., tamils tend to be looked down up by other indian groups).

He looks desi!

“…south indian groups like tamils in places such south africa and mauritius had far higher rates of conversion to Christianity from hinduism than north indian groups.” ???

Can you expand? The majority INDO-Fijians are/were Hindu?

Can you expand? The majority INDO-Fijians are/were Hindu?

yes. but i remember seeing ethnic breakdowns of % christian in south africa and mauritius. tamils had a far higher % of christians than other indian ethnic groups (e.g., mostly northern from uttar pradesh and bihar + a mercentile gujarati minority [gujarati muslims are the economic elite in the s. african indian community]). in south africa i believe i recall over 50% of tamils were christian, while a far smaller percentage of non-tamils were christian. i noticed the same trend in mauritius, a much higher % were christians. i looked up some ethnographic literature and it seemed that there was a mild 'push' from the rest of the indian community which looks down on them (i've talked to a gujarati muslim friend whose family is from s. africa, and he confirms the contempt). in mauritius some tamils saw themselves as more like the mixed-race creole community than other indians (this is especially true of christians who share a religion with the creole community). you get called 'black' enough why wouldn't you identify as such? :)

Grrr....how about credit the person who posted this on the news tab? I know you probably found it elsewhere. Nonetheless, you're my next meal, Siddhartha!...rrrr..

Christianity has deep roots in South India, especially in Kerala and TN. Its possible that a proportion of the Tamils were Christian before they emigrated and not necessarily converts later .It might even explain why there were more converts in the Tamil community because they probably had some historical memory/experience of Christianity and it was not as distant to them as it would be to a North Indian.

What I find problematic in the discourse here is the implication that conversion from Hinduism somehow is a rejection of Indian culture / identity. It’s a tired argument preached by Hindutva/RSS types. Indian culture has always been a composite derived from the interaction for many different faiths.

Razib,

Yes, there are a great number of Tamil conversions, post Dravidian movement. One of the consequences of Aryanism was to alienate sections of South Indians from Hinduism; this had the largest impact among Tamils. This is particulary ironic considering how much of what's called Hinduism today, based on the temple manuals known as agamas, originated in the Tamil country. There are still staunch Dravidianists among Tamils outside of India. The missionaries of course have played up Dravidanism, since it suits their purposes; the Tamil tigers as well, since its suits their aims as well.

risible:

One of the consequences of Aryanism was to alienate sections of South Indians from Hinduism

Also, there have been enough discussions on religion on this blog, and I don't see why we need to another one. The clash in Fiji is rooted in economic and political causes: religion is largely peripheral.

The Dravida movement was targetted against the Brahmins of South India, and not against some North Indians with Aryanistic pretensions. The South Indian Brahmins were imputed an Aryan heritage simply to evoke further resentment against them.

I diasgree. Dravidianism is in part a reaction to Aryanism, every critical work I've read on the subject takes this for granted. Yes, Brahmins were targetted, but so were Sanskrit texts and the Ramayana. Some Brahmins themselves imputed Aryan heritage to themselves, read the Hindu in the 1920s. There was ample missionary invlovement as well, eg. caldwell's fieldwork asserting the Shanars were a separate "race"; the Shanars are now known as Nadars and a large part of the community is Christian.

Also, there have been enough discussions on religion on this blog, and I don't see why we need to another one. The clash in Fiji is rooted in economic and political causes: religion is largely peripheral.

I diagree. Religion is not 'peripheral' in the historical conflict; it has been used by the native Fijian community as a primary mode for alienating Indo-Fijians, particluarly Hindus; and there is ongoing discrimination. The current coup leader seems to be pro-Indian; his Prime Minister believes he is called from God but nevertheless wishes no harm on Hindus and Muslims.

Risible:

I diasgree. Dravidianism is in part a reaction to Aryanism, every critical work I've read on the subject takes this for granted. Yes, Brahmins were targetted, but so were Sanskrit texts and the Ramayana. Some Brahmins themselves imputed Aryan heritage to themselves, read the Hindu in the 1920s.

(Emphasis mine) You're technically accurate in saying "in part"... but the question is "What part ?" Most critical texts prior to the mid-'70s were informed by the misleading -- but not yet discredited -- racial identification: Aryan=Caucasian, Dravidian=non-Caucasian. I'm quite curious: could you cite any texts from the '80s or the '90s, written by Indian authors, in which Aryanism is implicated as even close to being as important a factor as caste-polarisation ?

Most of my colleagues who are familiar with the Dravidian movement aver that it was a caste-based backlash against the very severe polarisation in the power-structure which, I may add, priveleged Brahmins vastly. As for the missionaries who played the "race card": the "separate race" rhetoric was invented many years after the Dravida movement got underway! And among the Brahmins: I don't think you'd have found the phenomenon of self-identication as "Aryans" very common outside the Mylapore district in Chennai.

I diasgree. Dravidianism is in part a reaction to Aryanism, every critical work I've read on the subject takes this for granted. Yes, Brahmins were targetted, but so were Sanskrit texts and the Ramayana. Some Brahmins themselves imputed Aryan heritage to themselves, read the Hindu in the 1920s. There was ample missionary invlovement as well, eg. caldwell's fieldwork asserting the Shanars were a separate "race"; the Shanars are now known as Nadars and a large part of the community is Christian.

I agree that the British attempted to create an Aryan-based narrative in India. However, this narrative was resisted both by the Congress and even by the RSS. There seems to have been agreement among the major poltical forces that this was an attempt to divide India across racial lines, and was generally rejected.

I did not know that some South Indian Brahmins had started taking Aryanism seriously around this period: I'd take your word for that. However, I'd still argue that Dravidianism was a reaction to centuries of discrimination the lower castes had to put up with, and not to some sudden Aryanist airs the Brahmins had started putting on(though they might have been a goad).

Also, there have been enough discussions on religion on this blog, and I don't see why we need to another one. The clash in Fiji is rooted in economic and political causes: religion is largely peripheral. I diagree. Religion is not 'peripheral' in the historical conflict; it has been used by the native Fijian community as a primary mode for alienating Indo-Fijians, particluarly Hindus; and there is ongoing discrimination. The current coup leader seems to be pro-Indian; his Prime Minister believes he is called from God but nevertheless wishes no harm on Hindus and Muslims.

Yes, religion is being used as a tool here, as it has always been used. But if we want to analyze the root causes of the problem, we should be careful not to get stuck on the religion issue. Also, if we want to discuss the religious angle, let it be something other than the standard venting on how Islam and Christianity are so intolerant, which we have all said and agreed on with great vehemence, on many previous threads.

* personal peeve alert *

I would also like to see people being as critical of hinduism as they are of Islam and Christianity. As an example, in these three recent threads there is a lot of equivocation when it comes to hinduism, and unapologetic visceral hatred when it comes to christianity or Islam. Also, posts that have negative things to say about hinduism do not last very long while those that criticize Islam/Christianity seem to take on a life of their own(or become so abusive they are closed). I think there is a double standard operating here, where people are willing to vent at other religions, but refuse to take the same straight gaze inwards at their own.

Post #21 was by me (sakshi). I had making an inane A Fish Called Wanda joke on another thread using this name (link) yesterday. Unfortunately my browser remembered that name.

According to the CIA World Factbook the ethnic and religious configuration of Fiji is as follows (not that the CIA WFB is always entirely accurate):

Ethnic groups:
Fijian 51% (predominantly Melanesian with a Polynesian admixture), Indian 44%, European, other Pacific Islanders, overseas Chinese, and other 5% (1998 est.)
Religions:
Christian 52% (Methodist 37%, Roman Catholic 9%), Hindu 38%, Muslim 8%, other 2%
note: Fijians are mainly Christian, Indians are Hindu, and there is a Muslim minority

That is to say, the Muslim 8% of the total population would be 18% of the 44% Indian minority. (Before the 1987 coup the ethnic balance was exactly the opposite: some 40% ethnic Fijian; 60% Indian.) Curiously, Pakistan of all places encourages visits by Fijians: the normally astronomically expensive Pakistani visas are only AUD$8 for Fiji nationals. Anecdotally (from ethnic Fijian acquaintance) there has been some minimal conversion by ethnic Fijians to Islam. The intense dislike by ethnic Fijians of ethnic Indians is well-nigh impossible to get them to tone it down in a social context even when they are visiting overseas where more polite discourse is rather encouraged. (The Fijian racist term for Indians is "kulina": don’t ask me to explain in public what that means but it does establish that ethnic Fijians perceive Indians to be Hindu.) It seems principally to be based on the perception that Indians are wealthy and ethnic Fijians are not. (Papua New Guineans used to be much the same about New Guinea Chinese.) However, there is certainly no reasonable ground for inferring from fact that it arises through any exploitation of the latter by the former. If anyone is in a situation of economic unpleasantness it is the (Indian) workers in the Gujarati-owned sweatshops. Legislation enacted after the return of democracy following the 1987 coup mandates the return of all land hitherto owned by the proprietors of sugar cane plantations to ethnic Fijian ownership. This would not ultimately appear to be an onerous imposition: there isn’t much market for sugar cane; there aren’t many countries in the world that aren’t perfectly capable of producing their own and much of Fiji’s market was the somewhat artificial one which the EC created by suppressing its own sugar production in order to buy sugar from Fiji – a market which abruptly ceased to exist after the first coup.

Ethnic Fijians are not, incidentally, Polynesian, but Melanesian, although their culture was heavily affected by Polynesian during long periods of Tongan domination before British control was established in 1874. The considerable admixture of Austronesian blood is evident in the variation in physical appearance from the coastal regions into the inland mountains: the people become notably darker and closer in appearance to Vanuatuans and Western and North Solomon Islanders.

It is not really appropriate to describe them as fundamentalist Christians, per se (though perhaps from a theological perspective that is what they are) given the connotations of the word in a US context. They are Methodists of a rather old-fashioned type that one would have found in any middle class suburb of a North American city up till, oh, say, the 1960s. On the other hand, their Christianity is perhaps needless to say heavily influenced by indigenous values and prejudices that the Gospels might not strictly speaking fully endorse. There has been extremely little conversion of Indians to Christianity in Fiji – I know of one Indo-Fijian Christian and I know a lot of ethnic- and Indo-Fijians. There is also extremely little intermarriage, though there are certainly numerous people of mixed Melanesian and Indian ancestry. Fijians explain this on the basis that Indians are “rappers” [sic]; one is inclined to treat this with scepticism.

Forgive the lecture. The South Pacific has been a bailiwick of mine for a long time tasol mi laik yupela olgeta tingting me tisa tasol.

#11. "Brownz are generally pussies. If faced off with another muscle-flexing community in a bifurcated demographic scenario, they tend to go into hiding,"

Pussies may be too contemptuous a term in this case, but it is completely true that people of Indian extraction now living in Trinidad, Guyana, Suriname, Fiji and Mauritius - all similar in their origin, current demographics and size - have not leveraged their education and economic status to wield political power. Kind of like Indians in the US, no? Chhedi Jagan in Guyana and Basdeo Pandey in Trinidad have been elected Prime Ministers, and even in the current African-leaning PNM party in Trinidad, there are key ministers of Indian origin. But the government, and it is the government agencies that run any country, is very non-Indian in these countries.

Where are the Indians then? They are doctors, lawyers, teachers, owners of big business empires and tens of thousands of small mom-and-pop businesses. The Indians scrimp and save to send their children to US and Canada for college so that they don't have to live on "this awful island where them blacks are taking over." The one thing Indians in these countries do not do is accept government largesse and take dead-end government jobs, and that's how they have lost access to power. Kind of like Indians in the US, no?

I know Trinidad as an insider (your auntie-ji is a Trinidad Indian). I know Guyana through my many Guyanese friends here in South Florida. Fiji, I assume, follows the same pattern.

Like their indentured laborer ancestors whose only goal was to grin and bear through the four years of the white man's contract so that they could get the four acres of farm land promised to them, the Indians in these islands are too focused on their immediate future to build a power base for posterity. I don't think they are being pussies. They are being shortsighted.

Nonetheless, you're my next meal, Siddhartha!...rrrr..

promises, promises...

Since Floridian brings up desis in Trinidad, Guyana, etc, I have to say that overall I've been very impressed with those particular diasporic communities. Largely descended from 19th century 'bhaiyas' (migrant labour from eastern Uttar Pradesh and western Bihar i.e. the Bhojpuri-speaking people), with some representation from central Uttar Pradesh, eastern Bihar, and maybe about 10% from South India as well, in some of these lands they are into their 6th and even 7th generation away from India. There are people in Trinidad today whose not only grandparents, but great-grandparents and even some (or all) of their great-great grandparents were born in Trinidad. Despite this, they have retained a whole lot of Indian culture and traditions, even with numerous obstacles. A lot of the festivals, religious traditions, foods, songs/music all continue to this day (in a very hybridised, Caribbeanised way, of course). In some cases, there are probably 5th/6th gen Indo-Caribbean people who still have more desi culture than some 2nd gen ABCDs. If you consider that most of the original 19th century migrants were probably only in their 20s, and were poor, illiterate villagers, it's amazing what they and their descendants were able to maintain and in fact further expand upon in their new land. All reports indicate that Indian culture was a source of strength and moral support to get them through very difficult times. Hats off to this remarkable community!

#18…The clash in Fiji is rooted in economic and political causes: religion is largely peripheral.

#23 “There is also extremely little intermarriage, though there are certainly numerous people of mixed Melanesian and Indian ancestry.”

#26 “…In some cases, there are probably 5th/6th gen Indo-Caribbean people who still have more desi culture than some 2nd gen ABCDs.”
I raised the question about conversion not really so much for a theological concern—as I find most people who have ‘inherited’ their religion, Abrahamaic and otherwise, take it on more as a cultural marker than anything else. I was really thinking about the thesis in the book WorldonFire--- and just some of my own observations. Broad generalization coming up- what is it about desis that stays desi so far from India for so many generations… except [IMO] in the US. But prehaps that will change as well as the population grows.

re: tamils and conversions. please note that i saw numbers which suggested that around 1/2 of ethnic tamils were christian. the proportion in tamil nadu is 1/20.

have not leveraged their education and economic status to wield political power.

not true of mauritius.

"I would also like to see people being as critical of hinduism as they are of Islam and Christianity."

Should people be "as" critical of Hinduism or any other religion just for the sake of it? or is it some kind of rule that all religions should be criticized equally?. How is that even possible when they are all different religions with different philosophies, only thing common is that they are all religions.

"Also, posts that have negative things to say about hinduism do not last very long while those that criticize Islam/Christianity seem to take on a life of their own(or become so abusive they are closed)."

That is because Hindus own up to the ills in their religion so there is nothing much to criticize or argue against. Another reason is, unlike other religions Hinduism has no conversion agenda or concept of jihad, Hinduism is not a threat to the existence of other religions and their followers. Problems in Hinduism affect Hindus not people of other religions.

"I think there is a double standard operating here, where people are willing to vent at other religions, but refuse to take the same straight gaze inwards at their own."

You are wrong, just go through those threads again, Hindus accept the wrongs in their religion but they don't know how to fix them because the problems are complex. As an exercise, can you come up with a practical solution to caste problem?. It has been my observation that Hindus blame themselves too much, and Muslims blame everyone else but themselves for their problems.
In your post, you start the names of all other religions in upper case, except Hinduism. So much for being equally critical and having equal standards.

First off, kudos to you Siddhartha for covering this topic there are definitely Indo-Fijian mutineers/lurkers out here.

not leveraged their education and economic status to wield political power

Mahendra Chaudhry was the PM in 1999 but was ousted in the 2000 coup.

Where are the Indians then? They are doctors, lawyers, teachers, owners of big business empires and tens of thousands of small mom-and-pop businesses.

The Indo-Fijians have left Fiji for Australia, New Zealand, the US and Canada. Why? For the same reason our great-grandparents went to Fiji in the first place, seeking new opportunities. Fiji is definitely an "island paradise". A lovely place to visit, not so much to live. There's rampant poverty throughout Fiji once you get past the white sandy beaches and resorts, not unlike other island paradises.

As an exercise, can you come up with a practical solution to caste problem?.

I guess one could always use the Sikh Amrit/Khanda-de-Pahul example as a precedent (yes yes, I know many modern-day Sikhs still hold onto the whole caste thing despite its incompatibility with Sikh teachings). You could have some kind of formal induction ceremony where everyone is "baptised" into the same "caste". For simplicity's sake you could just call this caste "Hindu", and ideally it would attract like-minded individuals who want to reject the whole notion of caste in the orthodox sense. Theoretically it should help raise everyone up to the same equal level (so to speak) especially if a large number of inductees get involved.

It would need some suitably enterprising Hindu religious leader to implement it, of course.

It would need some suitably enterprising Hindu religious leader to implement it, of course.

It would need some suitably enterprising Hindu religious leader to implement it, of course.

Implementing it would be easy. Getting the rest of the faithful to accept it would be harder. There have been many reformers who have wanted to wipe out caste, but it doesn't mean much if the rest of the society thinks of the new caste-less Hindus as shudras, brahmins, etc...

There's a lot of contradictory stuff running side by side in Hinduism. Much of it is thousands of years old, yet the contradictions stand because different religious traditions like one interpretation better than another. Ironically, caste is one of the few things that unites most Hindu traditions, even though it is something that many educated Hindus are uncomfortable with. A new movement would have to be INCREDIBLY powerful to overcome that decentralized, diverse opinion on belief and get everyone on board.

31 · Jai Singh on December 11, 2006 01:54 PM · Direct link As an exercise, can you come up with a practical solution to caste problem?. I guess one could always use the Sikh Amrit/Khanda-de-Pahul example as a precedent (yes yes, I know many modern-day Sikhs still hold onto the whole caste thing despite its incompatibility with Sikh teachings). You could have some kind of formal induction ceremony where everyone is "baptised" into the same "caste"...It would need some suitably enterprising Hindu religious leader to implement it, of course

Unfortunately, I don't think that a ceremony would do the trick, and it hasn't - even for Sikhs. Despite the concept of a casteless society, as you've said Jai, it still is very present in the Sikh community. The Sikh Gurus themselves would agree that even the Amrit ceremony is meaningless if the people who practice it themselves fail to recognize and express its significance.

The other issue is that comparatively, Hinduism is a "decentralized" faith. There is no central authority really that can even attempt to elicit that sort of societal change.

This thread was about the current coup situation in Fiji? Not really about Hinduism right? well i have an idea. I think the rich indians of the world should get together and sponsor a mass exodus. Its probably not that simple, but interesting to think about. Lets relocate all the Indians out of Fiji and leave the stinking god forsaken island to the locals and see how they deal with it. I think this experiment was tried in Uganda(even though not voluntarily) and it didn't help that country. On the other hand the Indians who left Uganda are thought to be one of the more successful refuge stories. But of course for this to work the exodus has to be fast, like within one year.

"As an exercise, can you come up with a practical solution to caste problem?."

If you literally mean the caste "problem," the proven solution is inter-caste marriages, which is nothing more complicated than marriages resulting from the very normal act of people falling in love. What has preserved the caste system and its attendant problems is the Indian system of arranged marriages, in which people order a mate to match, and the caste is usually the first on the list, followed closely by profession, height and, oh, skin color. Nobody wants an unfair bride. The fair ones are preferred.

In the Indian diaspora, where arranged marriages have given way to "love marriages," the caste system has all but disappeared. Some couples may know their respective castes as a matter of information, but caste is obviously not a divisive force if the family units are of mixed castes.

The good news is that the solution to the caste problem does not require a mandate or a revolutionary new method such as baptising all newborns to a simple, Hindu caste. The caste problem is destined to disappear on its own as today's youth, even in India, mingle freely with the opposite sex, fall in love and marry. I know this is still a small statistical trend in India but it is a huge social trend. And this is one trend that cannot be reversed.

A little disclaimer - as welcome a trend as "love marriage" is, at least for the elimination of the notorious caste system, I don't mean to criticise India's arranged marriage system at all.

Chitowndesi, I agree with the spirit of your post (although it's an unrealistic suggestion for many reasons)...it's kind of ridiculous how local or native people in these far-flung places always find Indians to be a convenient scape-goat or target, while ignoring the benefits they bring to the economy and that nation as a whole. I doubt the Fijians could run that place well (the economy anyway) without the Indians myself. I just hope the Indians manage to keep migrating to Australia, Canada, etc. as Island Girl described. Head for greener pastures. Although it has to be said that a small island like that could probably only go so far in terms of providing a decent economy, even if everyone there got along and there was a stable government. And, at the risk of contradicting myself, if I was an ethnic Fijian, I have to concede that I might be unhappy about the Indian presence (and wary about the demise of ethnic Fijian culture and power) myself.

This thread was about the current coup situation in Fiji? Not really about Hinduism right?

Agreed.

I think the rich indians of the world should get together and sponsor a mass exodus

LOL. That's an interesting theory but definitely not feasible. The situation in Fiji differs than that of Uganda (not too familiar, I think the Indians in Uganda were forced out) as most Indians want to leave but getting the necessary papers in order can take 10 or more years.

Island girl, Can you elaborate on the necessary papers that takes 10 years? How long does it take to get a passport? Once one has a passport, all one needs is a visa from another country right? Or, are there other internal controls?

Concerned - The papers that I was referring to are for those people that want to emigrate. I have relatives who emigrated to the US about 5 years ago, but were initially sponsored 8-10 years earlier. When my parents emigrated in the early 80's, I think it took a year or two for their papers to get processed. These papers are different than those required for a passport/visa as those are only for visiting another country for a defined period of time. Hope that helps.

Chitowndesi, I agree with the spirit of your post (although it's an unrealistic suggestion for many reasons)...it's kind of ridiculous how local or native people in these far-flung places always find Indians to be a convenient scape-goat or target, while ignoring the benefits they bring to the economy and that nation as a whole. I doubt the Fijians could run that place well (the economy anyway) without the Indians myself. I just hope the Indians manage to keep migrating to Australia, Canada, etc. as Island Girl described. Head for greener pastures. Although it has to be said that a small island like that could probably only go so far in terms of providing a decent economy, even if everyone there got along and there was a stable government. And, at the risk of contradicting myself, if I was an ethnic Fijian, I have to concede that I might be unhappy about the Indian presence (and wary about the demise of ethnic Fijian culture and power) myself.

It's not unprecedented though. Indians in these societies play the role that Jews did in Medieval Europe -- the mercantile, well-educated, distinct subculture who proved a useful scapegoat when times got tough. It's amazing how attempts to expel Indians in places like sub-Saharan Africa and Fiji mirror anti-Semitic movements in Europe.

If you literally mean the caste "problem," the proven solution is inter-caste marriages

The same way racism problem in the US can be fixed by more white-black marraiges. The government should compell people into marrying into another "group" to remove racism.

(Apologies to Siddhartha for the inadvertant threadjacking. I'll therefore try to keep this brief).

Regarding the "caste problem" issue and my proposed solution re: the "induction/baptism ceremony":

1. Get as many influential Hindu leaders and organisations involved as possible -- the relevant people in Varanasi, Hardwar & Rishikesh (for example), the Bhaktivendata organisation globally and the Swaminarayan's globally (and any other formal Hindu groups with a large "membership"), respected individuals such as Morari Bapu etc. It needs to be a large-scale coordinated effort.

2. Ideally the "inductees" should be from right across the board in terms of their castes, otherwise you run the risk of this becoming another "low-caste people's sect". Obviously the difficulty here is that numerous high-caste people will be less willing to get involved as they have more to lose, but hopefully there will be enough sufficiently enlightened high-caste people out there.

3. I'm really going out on a limb here, but if this could be worked into the simultaneous storylines of all those Saas-Bahu soaps in India which have such a large audience, it would help in increasing the profile of the movement. Rang De Basanti and the Munnabhai sequel both had a political impact to some extent in the real world (although it remains to be seen if this continues in the long-term), so perhaps the Indian entertainment industry could be harnessed for this cause too.

4. There will be people and groups who will oppose all this and will use violence to achieve their aims, so everyone concerned should be prepared for that. The Sikh analogy is a little different because the Amrit ceremony includes the inductee into the Khalsa becoming permanently armed with a kirpan too (and there's a whole code of conduct involved, mostly derived from Guru Gobind Singh's example and instructions), so that's one factor that would be difficult to translate into the corresponding Hindu ceremony (unless you want to turn everyone involved into "Brahmin-Kshatriyas" or some equivalent).

Floridian,

revolutionary new method such as baptising all newborns to a simple, Hindu caste.

My apologies for not being clearer above -- the Khalsa Amrit ceremony usually involves adults voluntarily participating in the ceremony based on an informed decision about everything it signifies and what it involves. It's not to be confused with the Christian baptism administered to babies.

The papers that I was referring to are for those people that want to emigrate.

Thanks Island girl. You are talking about immigration papers from the US. But aren't there a larger number of migrants to Australia and New Zealand, where the process is a lot shorter than to the US?

Mac#23

There has been extremely little conversion of Indians to Christianity in Fiji – I know of one Indo-Fijian Christian and I know a lot of ethnic- and Indo-Fijians. There is also extremely little intermarriage, though there are certainly numerous people of mixed Melanesian and Indian ancestry. Fijians explain this on the basis that Indians are “rappers” [sic]; one is inclined to treat this with scepticism.

The indigenous Fijians look like many South Indians due to their melanesian looks, which has links to India of a more distant past. So what is that really keeps them from mixing with the Indo-Fijians? Is it Christianity? What exactly does "rappers" mean in the Fijian context?

Chaudhry has been married to Virmati since 1965; they have three children and several grandchildren. Unlike the Hindu Chaudhry, Virmati is a born-again Pentecostal Christian (source). While her husband and son, Rajendra were still in captivity, she announced on 18 June 2000 that she had decided to forgive George Speight.

The indigenous Fijians look like many South Indians due to their melanesian looks

Some ethnic Fijians may superficially resemble some South Indians in some regards (facial features, skin color) but are on average significantly taller and more heavily-built/more muscular (compared to most North Indians as well). You can clearly tell them apart from desis. I think this is sort of an unspoken reason why desis in Fiji/Guyana/Trinidad are not more aggressive in terms of protesting violations of their rights...not only is the police/military in the other group's hands, but even on a person to person level, they may fear physical violence.

It's interesting that in areas where Indians dominated numerically, many ethnic Fijians learned Hindi (Fiji Hindi). This was true in Trinidad to a lesser extent (black people learning Hindi (or more correctly Trinidad Bhojpuri). Now however, Hindi/Bhojpuri have died out in Guyana/Trinidad/Mauritius/South Africa, but apparently still survive in Suriname and Fiji.

More on Fiji Hindi here.

"Now however, Hindi/Bhojpuri have died out in Guyana/Trinidad/Mauritius/South Africa, but apparently still survive in Suriname and Fiji."

Someday I would like to dig deeper into this phenomenon. I have always been intrigued about Suriname's retention of Bhojpuri and Trinidad's complete loss of the Indian languages, though certain words and phrases have managed to survive. My initial thought was the stark difference between the two cultures. Trinidad has always been a richer, more urbanized and commercialized society with a much higher level of interaction with North America than Suriname has. But, Guyana is more like Suriname and a lot less like Trinidad. Why hasn't Hindi/Bhojpuri survived in Guyana? Could the Dutch linguistic orientation of Suriname vs. English of Trinidad/Guyana be the reason?

certain words and phrases have managed to survive

One word that is still going strong in Trinidad, and is used by all, irrespective of ethnicity, is 'dougla' to describe a mixed African-Indian person. The word is used all the time and most people don't realise it's derived from Hindi, that too from the Hindi word 'dogla' which means 'bastard'.

I just wish to ask razib to refrain from making his grossly ill-informed comments with overtly racist overtones.His knowlege about Mauritian tamils(over 50% are christian??????)is scanty and pithy,and his assertion that tamils are looked down upon is frankly either outright communal or ludicrous.Mauritius's 1st president was a Tamil , and its current deputy prime minister and minister of Finance is a tamil.The vast majority of tamils in Mauritius are Hindus.

oh,
someone wrote that hindi has died out in many countries including mauritius.That is very far from the truth.Hindi is very much part and parcel of life in Mauritius , and it will be many generations before it will die out.