December 13, 2006
Capitalism: Gujus vs. BengalisEconomics
Prashant points us at yet another interesting, Desi economic history piece by Gautam Bastian. In it, Gautam quotes a provocative Telegraph OpEd that discusses a surprising diversity in the Desi Intellegentsia’s attitudes towards the market. Instead of the uniform, Pavlovian rejection Uncle Milt experienced, the Telegraph’s Ramachandra Guha points at a specific braindrain of Guju econ knowledge -
Back in the Sixties, it used to be said that India’s most successful export were economists. Our economy was resolutely insulated from the rest of the world, but our economists occupied high posts in famous universities in Europe and America. Later, the joke was amended to say that the reason India’s economy was mediocre was because its economists were world-class. No South Korean was a professor of political economy at Cambridge; no Malaysian had been awarded the Nobel Prize. But their economies grew at an impressive 8 per cent, whereas ours stayed stuck at 3.5 per cent, also known as the “Hindu” rate of growth.My own theory about Indian economists is more specific and hopefully less facetious. It runs as follows; Gujarati economists place faith in the market, while Bengali economists are prone to trust the state. In the Fifties, when P.C. Mahalonobis drafted the Soviet-inspired second five year plan, A.D. Shroff responded by starting the Forum of Free Enterprise. In the Sixties and the Seventies, about the only economist of pedigree advocating Indian integration with the world economy was the Gujarati, Jagdish Bhagwati. He was opposed by an array of Marxists, many of whom (naturally) were Bengali.
As Gautam notes, several prominent thinkers have attacked the the broad question of “if intellectuals are so smart, how come so many have been so wrong about markets?” (Heck, little old me, in my blogging youth tried to add on to Nozick). But by slicing and dicing across socio-cultural lines within India, Guha takes the question in a different direction. While I’d heard the stereotype of Bengali Marxists (keep in mind that my homestate - Kerala - has its fair share as well) I wasn’t aware that Guju’s were responsible for the counter pole. Biz friendly Gujus, eh? I suppose many stereotypes start with a grain of truth somewhere….
vinod on December 13, 2006 03:22 PM in Economics · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
¤ Half the Sins of Mankind said: Sepia Notes
Good post. Thanks!
that was indeed the era of the indian intellectual. mahalanobis (by the metric of that name), rao (of Rao-Blackwell theorem, Cramer-Rao inequality etc) and many others came out of (I believe) Bengali educational institutes. it is amazing looking at some of those papers in jasa etc from the sixties. those guys said more and more clearly in two-three pages than the the canine breakfasts served out today.
i wonder if there is a correlation between the origin of bengali intellectuals from managerial bureaucratic traditions (brahmins & kayasthas) and gujarati merchants and entrepeneurs (banias?).
Fantastic post. Not just Marxism and state socialism, but also violent Naxalism (Charu Mazumdar, Kanai Chatterjee); not to mention subalternism and a veritable arsenal of leftist academics. The Gujjus OTOH, well, as Gautam Sen said once, just take a look at the Swaminarayan temple in Britain- a work of high culture produced without the least bit of pretence.
razib: I think Gurchuran Das went into that in India Unbound (?).
retract the aspersions or we'll take back tagore!!!
This all goes to further my theory that Gujurat = Texas.
Good post!
Take a look at the hunger strike by Mamata Banerjee to oppose the acquisition of farm land in West Bengal for a Tata car unit, also opposed by Medha Patkar. A project initiated(?) by the ruling CPM and supported by Pro-Communist Party of India-Marxist (CPI-M) farmers.
Nobody seems to be sticking to an ideology. Bengal sure needs to resolve some issues.
As Gautam notes, several prominent thinkers have attacked the the broad question of if intellectuals are so smart, how come so many have been so wrong about markets?As for the intellectuals go, they are over-rated. Not that we don't need them, but we need to listen to them less and make our own decisions (based on what we know and not based on what they say). James Surowiecki makes a good case for that in his book The Wisdom of Crowds, worth a read for anyone who believes in the collective intelligence of human societies (or the market if want to call it so).
i wonder if there is a correlation between the origin of bengali intellectuals from managerial bureaucratic traditions (brahmins & kayasthas) and gujarati merchants and entrepeneurs (banias?).
That's an interesting observation.
But also, the socialist sentiments of many prominent intellectuals in India were a carryover from the independence movement, many of whom equated imperialism with capitalism(which was not farfetched, given the circumstances of the time). There was a socialist wave across India in the early 20th century that was not limited to Bengal alone: Bhagat Singh declared himself an atheist and communist, and many prominents Muslim intellectuals saw themselves as socialists. So did the prominent Congress leaders such as Nehru(Gandhi, as usual is hard to pin down). Socialism probably caught on in Bengal even earlier, as Tagore, the greatest influence on the Bengali bhadralok early in the century century, had expressed sympathies for the Soviets. It is no surprise that socialism/communism was the flavor of the day when these people moved into positions of power after independence.
Interestingly, the only prominent freedom fighter who had capitalist leanings was Sardar Patel, from Gujarat.
Interestingly, the only prominent freedom fighter who had capitalist leanings was Sardar Patel, from Gujarat.
yes, that's the interesting thing. between 1930-1980 obviously socialism was the 'hot' view. so, the ? is did gujaratis in particular resist this tendency? and could it be due to their prominence in mercantile activities?
... surprising diversity in the Desi Intellegentsias attitudes towards the market ...
There is diversity only after you unlearn the stuff from high-school and B.Com. classes.
The economics that I learnt in an Indian high school was part of the Civics class implying that it was a government function.
So, if you were not born into a family that ran a business you had no clue how markets worked.
Even now the Indian cabinet shows the holdover from my civics classes.
Interestingly, the only prominent freedom fighter who had capitalist leanings was Sardar Patel, from Gujarat.yes, that's the interesting thing. between 1930-1980 obviously socialism was the 'hot' view. so, the ? is did gujaratis in particular resist this tendency? and could it be due to their prominence in mercantile activities?
Yeah, but think of the other Gujarati - Gandhi. He saw not only capitalism, but industry itself as dehumanizing and detrimental to human happiness.
I don't know though how much of a following he had in Gujarat.
Yeah, but think of the other Gujarati - Gandhi. He saw not only capitalism, but industry itself as dehumanizing and detrimental to human happiness.
i need a bigger sample size, not alternative exemplars. anyone who knows indian public intellectuals in economics care to list some numbers?
The economics that I learnt in an Indian high school was part of the Civics class implying that it was a government function.Very true! At beginning of my high school years I thought soviet style communism was the best thing in the world, because we were taught that (from NCERT textbooks) without a fair comparison. Though I realized by the end of my high school years that it only leads to an unfair society (dad worked in DRDO, a good example of wasted taxpayer money).
did gujaratis in particular resist this tendency? and could it be due to their prominence in mercantile activities?
I don't know about gujarat but traditionally merchant castes did not join the naxalite movement in Punjab. Lots of punjabi writers and poets in 70ies were left leaning anti bania/merchant and anti government. I don't know of any Punjabi economist who preached left or right, but certainly there seems to be a correlation between caste/community and practice of capitalism.
personal question. may seem kinda naive.
Here in mumbai, a lot of the businessmen happen to be guju,
my dad says it has something to do the fact that gujus by their very nature are very enterprising.
he gives ambani as an example. is that true at all??
if so is it just confined to mumbai, because i seem to run a lot of enterprising businesses here.
I don't know about gujarat but traditionally merchant castes did not join the naxalite movement in Punjab. Lots of punjabi writers and poets in 70ies were left leaning anti bania/merchant and anti government. I don't know of any Punjabi economist who preached left or right, but certainly there seems to be a correlation between caste/community and practice of capitalism.
Does this have any relation to the point Floridian made recently in another thread? What is the caste make-up of the communities in these countries?
Interestingly, the only prominent freedom fighter who had capitalist leanings was Sardar Patel, from Gujarat.Not sure that this is true. Rajaji founded the Swatantra Party. It was quite opposed to the Soviet style central planning. Rajaji also coined the phrase Permit-Licence-Quota Raj. See this.
What is the caste make-up of the communities in these countries?
if you are are talking about the british colonies like mauritius & trinidad, mostly peasants from their respective region. but, in mauritius, fiji and throughout east africa, including south africa, gujarati mercantile groups play an important role as distinct economic elites. sometimes they aren't hindu, e.g., the ismaili in uganda, or the sunni muslims in south africa.
i wonder if there is a correlation between the origin of bengali intellectuals from managerial bureaucratic traditions (brahmins & kayasthas) and gujarati merchants and entrepeneurs (banias?).
Implicitly, as a Gujarati, I'm kinda biased towards this view. However, real information may say othewise. Gujaratis were pretty damn successful mid century in Africa (when socialism was hot in India) before instability in places like Uganda saw a mass exodus of desis.
Gujaratis ( and Sindhi's) in my personal experience have been aligned with making a 'buck'. Venturing beyond the shores of the subcontinent to do so brings considerable know how and an understanding of how to secure one's interest.
How many Bengalis ventured out to do business as opposed to leaving to get a better education or intellecutal enlightenment?
To me, it has everything to do with what is prized in each community and market value assigned to it. Bengalis seem to value higher education, the status that goes along with it, and intellectual discourse spawned from having literate folk around you. Gujus value the engineers, doctors - but more as a result of the financial windfall that came along with said professions.
I've always maintained the Bengalis were similar to the French in that aspect, while Gujaratis are analogous to Americans.
I've always maintained the Bengalis were similar to the French in that aspect, while Gujaratis are analogous to Americans.
is that why i like french wine?
Incidentally, Mahalonobis was not an economist by education. He was a statistician.
razib: yes, that's the interesting thing. between 1930-1980 obviously socialism was the 'hot' view. so, the ? is did gujaratis in particular resist this tendency? and could it be due to their prominence in mercantile activities?
The definition of Gujarati needs to be broadened to include Parsis, who in my book are bonafide gujjus. Then it is very clear that the Gujaratis have been a bullwark against the excesses of socialism. Intellectuals like Minoo Masani, Nani Palkhivala, et al worked tirelessly to promote free markets.
sakshi There was a socialist wave across India in the early 20th century that was not limited to Bengal alone
I will include quite a few Tam-brams in the list of the politically and economically left. I suspect that their nostalgic angst about the end of socialism has largely to do with how a lot of their parents (IAS types, civil servants) benefitied from a lifetime in babudom.
Bengalis are leftist because they love to argue. No other reason, really. If being martian was controversial, they would be martians, argue a lot, make art-films, write novels, garner awards and pontificate with self-righteousness about the glory of being martian. -P
Kidding, kidding, kiddng.
Vinod,
Lynne Truss may be offended by your use of the apostrophe. :-)
Shouldn't it be Gujjus and Bengalis?
Bengalis are leftist because they love to argue. No other reason, really. If being martian was controversial, they would be martians, argue a lot, make art-films, write novels, garner awards and pontificate with self-righteousness about the glory of being martian.
LOL.
if so is it just confined to mumbai, because i seem to run a lot of enterprising businesses here.There are more of the enterprising gujjus in Mumbai coz it was/is the commerce capital of India (at least for the last 200 yrs?) and is obviously close to Gujarat. I grew up in B'lore and have seen that most businesses were owned by Gujjus, Sindhis, Jains and Muslims. A visit to the most popular market in the city will confirm that.
dad worked in DRDO, a good example of wasted taxpayer money
I venture that the ROI on DRDO was far higher than from the DAE (Dept. of Atomic Energy) even though there was no industrial/market mission for the DRDO.
Compare that with DAE's funding for a nuclear power goal of 20,000 MW by 2000. DAE now delivers 1,500 MW.
It does not surprise me that they are the most vocal critics of the nuclear deal with the US.
On the stereotpyical front, I agree with Vinay. Most peple who do any sort of work in Bangalore are non-Kannadigas. I know. I am a Kannadiga. You will not find a more lethargic group of contented people than the old-Mysore community - well, probably the Pune Maharashtrians [1], but not many other folks.
A good guide to the gujju & marwari community (more or less) is this book. India's best business writer is a gujju woman.
Among Gujjus, there is a curious presence in the stock market. IIRC, all NSE and BSE brokers bar none, are gujjus or marwaris). Following the Harshad Mehta scandal, some Jain stock brokers stated (India Today article) that they were not as ruthless as the Hindu vaishyas, which was an imaginative but outright lie. :-)
Related topic: Why are gujjus are so powerful (along with Hassidic jews) in the diamond industry?
[1] Caveat - the Pune Maharashtrians who fought the Mughals and later, for independence, on the other hand (Ranade, Tilak, Chapekar etc) were exceptions.
On the stereotpyical front, I agree with Vinay. Most peple who do any sort of work in Bangalore are non-Kannadigas. I know. I am a Kannadiga.I am a Kannadiga too, we sure do like to take things easy. Hey but weren't we smart enough to settle in Bangalore in the first place :)
Why are gujjus are so powerful (along with Hassidic jews) in the diamond industry?
aren't these gujjus jains? for hasidic jews it is for two reasons
a) this a profession that doesn't require education in, and much interaction with, the outside world
b) a lot of the transactions in the jewelry business are done through personal trust. hasidic jews have prefab networks of trust enforced through implicit socially mediated contracts so they can move gems internationally with minimal risks
for jains, didn't it have to do with the fact that diamond dealing doesn't shed blood? :) (yes, a reference to blood diamonds....)
razib: True. And not just any jain. They are almost always Palanpuri Jains. Must be the water.
Bengalis are leftist because they love to argue. No other reason, really. If being martian was controversial, they would be martians, argue a lot, make art-films, write novels, garner awards and pontificate with self-righteousness about the glory of being martian.Kidding, kidding, kiddng.
:D
Nope, that's pretty right on, I think ...and, sadly, why I lust after them Bengali mens so much (also because I have a bit of an inferiority complex about being the scrappy little Bihari neighbor to the land of Tagore).
"Bengalis are leftist because they love to argue. No other reason, really. If being martian was controversial, they would be martians, argue a lot, make art-films, write novels, garner awards and pontificate with self-righteousness about the glory of being martian."
almost exactly the same thing can be said about tamil brahmins, except the part about actually converting the arguments into something tangible - art-films, awards and the like.
As a non-Gujarati NI who grew up in Guajrat I can give you first hand account of the business freindly nature of the state. When we visited relatives in Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra state, I could feel the difference even more.
I was always interested in the stock market. I saw that in 1991 during Harshad Mehta period even "thele-walas" (street vendors) were investing in stock market. I remember all braches of all banks in Baroda, Gujarat ran out of "Tata Timken" initial public offering forms !!!!!!! (Unlike the US, the IPO process in India much more democratic and even a small investor can invest. The risks are high for retail investors) I think only in Gujarat.
Consequently the biggest bulls of BSE of the past years are Nimesh Shah, Ketan Parekh (involved in scams).. Gujaratis.
Conventional wisdom has it that (in no particular order) Gujjus, Marwaris, Sindhis, and Sikhs (of Khatri/Arora castes) are India's best business people. We should encourage these groups to 'do their thang', because they are equal to anyone in the world in this particular arena, and India's continued economic growth and development rests to a large degree on their shoulders.
In my comment #34
(Unlike the US, the IPO process in India much more democratic and even a small investor can invest. The risks are high for retail investors)
What I am trying to say is that in India a retail investor can invest directly in IPOs. Since IPOs are risky investment, this freedom puts retail investors at a greater risk. Where as in the US only the underwriting firm (for example Lehman Brothers) lets its "preferred" investors in on a IPO.
I am not going to allow anyone to do their "thang" - Not In My BackYard:)
Just an additional note to comment #36. Since the big firms dont let retail investors in on IPOs, GOOGLE broke that rule and directly alloted shares to regular people (retail investors) at IPO price $80. They are sitting preety today !!!!
almost exactly the same thing can be said about tamil brahmins, except the part about actually converting the arguments into something tangible - art-films, awards and the like.
tam brams are too busy doing physics to make films :-)
Very interesting post on a topic that has always affected me!
The intellectual bong and the business-minded Gujju are both very common stereotypes.
Being a "probashi" (expat) Bengali and a Gujju at heart (I grew up in mumbai but my parents hail from kolkata), I have always seen the "intellectual" (spoken with faux french accent here) tendencies of my pure-bong friends as an idiosyncrasy or annoyance. A lot of this dislike stems from the condescending attitude I received from them, and also due to their negative stereotypes of Gujjus, Marwaris and anyone else who actually did anything useful in life (IMHO).
I think that this whole coffeehouse-socialist-intellectual-leftist thing is turning out to be Bengal's Achilles heel, as it as has led to an extremely lazy work ethic and resistance to any change. It's kinda similar to France, that way.
However, your post does remind me, as I sometimes remind myself, that these intellectual tendencies have in fact produced some great thinkers/scientists/artists/reformers in their heydays.
is that why i like french wine?
Dunno man, I sure as hell like cheap wine by the gallon or in a box (quantity over quality), so it may be true.
Not that I don't appreciate good wine - I do, but I also enjoy the cheap shit by the volume. Miller High Life, Mickey's, Olde English, PBR, lite beer, whatever.
On a parallel note , One should also commend the Gujjus for having an intricate lending system , unique to the community. Remember folks, that this is a way more profitable and quicker to mint the moolah at a 30-40% interest rate while sitting on a white gaddi . This was also probably the only system akin to the CREDIT CARD..(circa 1960-1998). There is something to be said about the "iski topi uske sar aur uski topi iske sar system"! Munimji ..kahan ho ?
technophobicgeek: To be fair to Bongs, all non-academic bongs have done remarkably well outisde of Bengal. Rajat Gupta, Shombit Sengupta & other advertising biggies, execs of various IT companies are probably proof of the fact that once you leave Bengal, you are bound to succeed in business.
I think that this whole coffeehouse-socialist-intellectual-leftist thing is turning out to be Bengal's Achilles heel, as it as has led to an extremely lazy work ethic and resistance to any change. It's kinda similar to France, that way.
if bengal (east and west) had france's prosperity & productivity it would be golden again :-)
if bengal (east and west) had france's prosperity & productivity it would be golden again :-)
Oh razib...shonar bangla and all...I'm positively welling with tears here :)
Yup, dem bongs got the French cafe-intellectual sh*t down, but dey forgot dat u need to go out and exploit some colonies and get some bling to keep the game goin'.
technophobicgeek: To be fair to Bongs, all non-academic bongs have done remarkably well outisde of Bengal. Rajat Gupta, Shombit Sengupta & other advertising biggies, execs of various IT companies are probably proof
Yep, agreed. Not to forget Subhash Chandra (Sahara Inc), and Amar Bose and so on. Dude, these folks are my only hope that genes can be overcome... :)
technophobicgeek: To be fair to Bongs, all non-academic bongs have done remarkably well outisde of Bengal. Rajat Gupta, Shombit Sengupta & other advertising biggies, execs of various IT companies are probably proofYep, agreed. Not to forget Subhash Chandra (Sahara Inc), and Amar Bose and so on. Dude, these folks are my only hope that genes can be overcome... :)
Amar Bose is half italian. Rajat Gupta looks Nepalese. Shombit Sengupta OTOH looks pure Bong.
One should also commend the Gujjus for having an intricate lending system , unique to the community. Remember folks, that this is a way more profitable and quicker to mint the moolah at a 30-40% interest rate while sitting on a white gaddi
I thought the Gujarati lending system was based on trust (no paper records at all), and also based on village/caste/family ties. I also thought it was interest-free. Was I wrong? I know that many people could only break into the hotel business because of these loans from other Gujaratis.
I thought the Gujarati lending system was based on trust (no paper records at all).Amitabh, It's sort of like an elite club. If you screw up on payments, you get thrown out. Very hard, almost impossible to get back in. You do not want to lose membership privilages. Where else can you raise big money without the usual lender hassles?
Some jargon for your enjoyment.
Peti: 1 lakh (100000)
Khoka: 1 crore (10000000)
Next time you hear someone saying "Mane khoka joiye", you know he's not asking for a big box.
I also thought it was interest-free.N.O. 2% per month is standard rate. It's in your interest to pay on time (I kill myself with the hahas).
Here goes Shodan: Mane khokha joiye. Is it ok if I am Bong but ask in Gujarati? FYI, I am all free market and shite like that.
In Tamil Nadu we have a mercantile community called the Chettiars. They bankrolled maritime trade to Southeast Asia for about 1,500 years, my bet is they had much to do with the "Indianisation" of Thailand/Cambodia/Malaysia/Indonesia
Isn't Gujurat a traditional BJP stronghold? Pro-business is probably like a cultural trait almost... propagated down over the years.
As Gautam notes, several prominent thinkers have attacked the the broad question of if intellectuals are so smart, how come so many have been so wrong about markets? (Heck, little old me, in my blogging youth tried to add on to Nozick).
Keynes:
The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed, the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from intellectual influences, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back.
Conventional wisdom has it that (in no particular order) Gujjus, Marwaris, Sindhis, and Sikhs (of Khatri/Arora castes) are India's best business people.
Conventional wisdom in Patiala perhaps. The South has the Chettiars, Bunts/Shettys, Komattis, recently the Nadars and Reddys, et. al. who are considered very good in business. The current Finance Minister of India, the Harvard-trained Chidambaram, is a Chettiar.
Isn't Gujurat a traditional BJP stronghold?
See Neal #7 . ;)
In Tamil Nadu we have a mercantile community called the Chettiars. They bankrolled maritime trade to Southeast Asia for about 1,500 years, my bet is they had much to do with the "Indianisation" of Thailand/Cambodia/Malaysia/IndonesiaAs always! one tries to look up Chettiar history and is led to sites with teasers and then drumroll....matrimonials. sigh! anyways, i couldnt find information on the maritime trade piece...however, I have seen old paintings going back to Chera/Pandya/Chola empire depicting ships with a prow in the shape of a peacock that closely resembles similar paintings in Thailand. Potentially Hinduism spread via those empires and yep, they date back well before 500 AD. BTW, there is a decent description of the similarity between Chetty, Shetty and Seth etc... here : Chettiar.
Ahh lol...
Here goes Shodan: Mane khokha joiye. Is it ok if I am Bong but ask in Gujarati?Doesn't khoka mean little boy in Bangla? Why confuse fellow Bongs?
All b.s. aside, there's someone who introduces you to the lender for which he gets .5% or some such cut.
He is sort of responsible for your behaviour, so he has to make sure that you're good for it.
shodan: Peti and Khoka are underworld terms and not Gujarati terms. Kavva (cellphone) is another. For a complete list of underworld terms, refer to Satya and Company. ;-P
if bengal (east and west) had france's prosperity & productivity it would be golden again :-)
They can begin with using Gujarati's as consultants to help 'jump start' the local economy, but that may be too much for Bengali pride to digest :) or too much fish for some Swaminarayan Gujus to deal with.
Quizman,
I bow to your superior knowledge of trivia. But Underworld IS business. With killings when needed.
They pick their slang from everywhere. So not sure who started it. The Zaveri Bazaar types I know have been using it for many years.
Maybe they wanted to sound all gangsta and suddenly started dropping bhai vocab?
Conventional wisdom in Patiala perhaps. The South has the Chettiars, Bunts/Shettys, Komattis, recently the Nadars and Reddys, et. al. who are considered very good in business. The current Finance Minister of India, the Harvard-trained Chidambaram, is a Chettiar.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to ignore the South...sorry...my bad. I am just not as aware of the business communities there as I am for the North. Thanks for the information. Are people with the last name Pillai also from a business/mercantile background?
What is amazing about the diamond industry is that gujju bhais travel with diamonds in their pockets (rolled up in paper) on the Mumbai-Surat train very day. You wouldn't know who they are, but millions of dollars worth of diamonds are sent this way. The whole system works on trust - an established mechanism that works only with strongly knit communities. Everyone knows everyone else. Woe Betide, if you screw up - your entirely clan will be after you. That's why the diamond trade is very closely restricted to the Palanpuri Jain community. Gita Piramal has written (in the book 'Business Maharajahs') about Bharat Shah and co. Apparently, they live in modest homes, work in modest offices (Antwerp and Mumbai), and one wouldn't know how wealthy they are, until you see one of their kitschy wedding dos. {In the early 1990s, a diamond merchant booked the Wankhede stadium, built a faux Rajasthani palace and invited the whos-who of the diamond industry, politicians, cinema stars to it. This caused penis envy in another diamond merchant. So he chartered a Boeing 707, got his son married in it, while it was flying over Mumbai - with holy fire and all - and advertised the fact all over India. Sheeeesh.)
Shodan, I think it is partly because of the protection money that the Zaveri Bazaar merchants gave to the local gangstas, which in turn bankrolled other mafia operations in Bombay. Of course, you did not hear it from me and I certainly would not know of these things -- good Bong khoka that I am. I blame it all on the sex and violence in Bollywood movies and Shantaram, the novel.
Turnip,
I really am concerned I sound like you, only you're putting on an act, and....I really sound like that. Crap. Its pretty funny though. Huzzah chappie
:-(
So I'm actually a Gujarati but I've always been impressed by the parts of India that are getting dissed as "too intellectual" here. I mean making money and being entreprenurial is just part of the culture in Gujarati families. Just as an extreme example, I had one uncle who was seriously considering giving up his medical practice in order to run a liquor store because someone at his mandir had informed him it was "more profitable". My own father gave up a career as an engineer to run a series of motels. Nearly every "established" Gujarati I know is running some kind of business.
But -- at least in the Gujarati community I grew up in -- there was very little importance placed on knowledge or culture for its own sake. Art and intellectual theory were only important if they were very old and very famous signifiers of culture. "Real" or "important" innovation is the kind that gets you paid. It's all about the Benjamins. Which I suppose is not a bad attitude if you're happy with it.
But it's interesting to run into Bengalis, Malyalees, etc... who have these really modern, current intellectual and artistic traditions. Of course my fascination with this kind of thing has helped cement my "bad Indian/bad Gujarati" image in the eyes of my parents ;)
Excellent post, Vinod. As someone interested in economic history in general and Gujarat's history in particular, this is a fascinating topic. For those who are looking for the Gujju school of economics, here's some more luminaries:
1.CN Vakil
2.AD Shroff
3.JJ Anjaria
4.DT Lakdawala
5.IG Patel
The free market school of thought was mainly based in Bombay and Gujarat universities. However, it is simplistic to characterize this movement as Gujju vs. Bong. Yes, there were disproportionately high number of Gujjus on the "right" side, but there were others as well. One of the greatest thinkers in that era - the only economist that Milton Friedman himself ound to be of exceptional merit - was BR Shenoy, who headed the econs department of Gujarat University. DT Lakdawala followed him in that position and educated the next generation of economists at the same school. Another free market thinker was PR Brahmananda. The other Gujju economists were based in Bombay University.
What's remarkable is that a lot of these guys were educated at the hotbed of pinko socialism, the LSE. It's a tribute to their intellect and power of thinking that they still came out as free market proponents. Many of them were shunned by the establishment after they lost the power struggle to dumbass statists who were predominantly Bengalis. History is written by victors, and unfortunately, since these guys were on the losing side, their stories have never been told. Like many others here, I too grew up on textbooks that hailed the statist model and the Soviet Union.
There is a parallel on the political side as well, which has tended to be a discourse priamrily written by the Congressis, of the Congressis and for the Congressis. Most Indias today hardly know of anything other than the Congress and its "glory" in the fifties and sixties. However, the Swatantra Party and its leaders like Minoo Masani and Bhailalbhai Patel, aka Bhaikaka, were fairly influential in the sixties in Gujarat and Bombay. Swatantra Party even won a few seats in elections in Gujarat in the hey day of Congress power. Similarly, leaders such as Sardar Patel and C Rajagopalachari who had foreseen the stupidity of Nehru's ways have also been systematically airbrushed out of Indian history by the comie-pinko-Congressis. However, these guys were outstanding leaders - I'd highly recommend reading Saradar Patel's works to get a sense of the man's intellectual gravitas. Today, he's the favourite whipping boy of Marxists - encouraged by the COngressi sycophants who have converted a once great institution into the family fiefdom of the Nehru-Gandhis - and systematically painted as a closet Hindutva fascist, but Patel was a true intellectual giant and a great nationalist leader of vision, especially compared to that feeble f'tard Nehru.
Speaking of the LSE, it is remarkable in its own right as to how influential that institution has been in India's formative years. After all, Nehru's ideological guru was Harold Laski of the LSE and the Fabian Society. I remember reading somewhere that at Nehru's cabinet meetings, one chair was left empty in honour of Laski who was assumed to be present in spirit!!
The comment that quoted JM Keynes on the power of political philosophy is indeed one of the greatest insights ever. The madman Nehru was indeed listening to the voices of socialist dumbasses and his chrony Mahalnobis - who was not even a real economist - used the pseudo-science to create policy. *Sigh*!! Nehru, Mahalanobis and VK Menon are the original axis of ideological evil. They unleashed pure hell on poor Indians that they are still living in. When will we ever become free?
Here's an obit of Brahmananda.
BTW, I am curious as to why we are generally predisposed to calling proponents of intellectually bankrupt philosophies as "intellectuals"? After all, on the right side, people like IG Patel and Shenoy were also LSE PhDs and actually had views that were proven correct in the hindsight. Are they any less of intellectuals than the likes of Mahalanobis?
I, for one, have always taken particular pleasure in exposing the stupidity of the arguments that I'd regulalry get into with the left'ard Bongs that I used to run into in my college days in India. None of them struck me as an "intellectual" type, more of a sorry-ass anachronistic Trotsky-quoting reovlutionary wannabe that I took pleasure in ridiculing. And this was after the Wall had come down! On the other hand, I suppose that India is one of the few countries in the world where a communist party is not the laughingstock and the public equivalent of the Flat Earth Society yet so even indulging them into debate is, I suppose, an act of taking them seriously. It's just so unfortunate that the power they exert in the ideasphere continues to destroy the lives of millions of Indians today.
Gujjubhai, the fault is not merely at the hands of Nehru, Mahalanobis, Menon and suchlike, but all the people of today, living in this day and age, who still support and bolster India's socialistic ethos.
At least Nehru was a dumbass who did not have enough empirical evidence.
What about the dumbasses of today who still support this poisonous ideology of socialism even after all the countervailing empirical evidence?
This disconnect from reality fueled by self-righteousness, can only survive in a climate of extreme brainwashing.
Quizman's point of Bengalis doing well when they get out of Bengal corroborates this.
It's no suprise that young "scholars" like Vijay Prashad are nostalgic for marxism, they were the beneficiaries of perks (i.e. housing colonies, the best schooling) that the socialists reserved for their own. "Babu spawn", as I call them, resent the advancement of those of us who came up in spite of the best efforts of their parents
I grew up in B'lore and have seen that most businesses were owned by Gujjus, Sindhis, Jains and Muslims. A visit to the most popular market in the city will confirm that.
Most Jains (virtually all swetambara Jains, 90% of all Jains) are ethnically Guju or Marwari vaishas. Marwar is a region in southern Rajasthan neighbouring Gujarat, Marwari and Gujarati Hindus basically have the same religious and cultural traditions, the big difference is language. Many of the more entreprenureal muslim communities (Memons, Ishmailis) are ethnically Guju / Sindhi. Parsis are just anglophilic Iranian-Gujarati mongrels.
I think the disparity is largely a question of prestige. In Gujarati culture prestige is highly correlated with monetary wealth rather than education or the exclusiveness of the profession. In Bengali culture prestige has little to do with monetary wealth but rather with respect given to one by peers based on ones knowledge.
Another way to think of this is, all other things being equal, who would be a more desirable mate ? A small business owner with a few million dollars in net worth in the form of motel properties or a college professor making a nice comfortable couple hundred thousand a year from salary and consulting.
I agree with most of what Gujubhai-67 said above. I was born and raised in Ahmedabad - heart of Gujarat. Went to a Roman catholic run christian high school and later college called "ST. Xavier's". Interestingly, majority of acedemically "smart" kids were Non-Gujarati e.g. Madrasees (In Gujarat anyone from South of Bombay is generically known as Madrasee), Bengalis, etc. However, when it came to "Streetsmartness" they were always Gujaratis, Marwadis, Sindhis. etc. And of course there were few "Sardars". In those days folks like Ennis and Amardeep were rare to find. Some of my best friends came from Ambanis, Sarabhais, Mafatlals, Katurbhai Lalbhais, Sir Chinubhai Baronets, Ambanis, etc. There is always exception to any rule. Dr. Vikram Sarabhai - a Gujarati - excelent World class intellectual who is responsible for ISRO and PRL in Ahmedabad. Umashanker Joshi - a Gujarati - was head of Tagore's "Shantiniketan" in Bengal. Ambassador to USA -- waaaay back was Gagannvihari Mehta. Dr. K. M. Munshi - founder of Bhavans in Bombay. Some of my best friends are still "Bengali Babus". It is my observation that Gujaratis are more versatile than Bengali. Again, that's just my opinion. Now let us have some Undhiu and Khamman Dhokra, and top it off with some Rosgullas, shall we? Happy Holidays !!
As always! one tries to look up Chettiar history and is led to sites with teasers and then drumroll....matrimonials. sigh!
Thomas Sowell ( a favorite of the blog author, I believe) has written on the Chettiars. Though a small minority, they controlled a substantial portion of the Burmese economy from the late nineteenth to mid twentieth centuries (and eventually expelled). Not unlike the Guju story in East Africa.
Are people with the last name Pillai also from a business/mercantile background?
They can be, but I believe (someone correct me) the name denotes an agriculturalist/herder. The Shaiva Pillais are considered a "forward" community in TN; they are vegetarians, and, as you might guess, staunch Shaivites. In Kerala. I believe Nairs can also also go by Pillai. In Kerala, I suspect that most of the merchant community converted to Christianity, and that the best traders in Kerala, historically, have been Syrian Christians.
I grew up in B'lore and have seen that most businesses were owned by Gujjus, Sindhis, Jains and Muslims. A visit to the most popular market in the city will confirm that.
The top traditional jewelers, like Narayan Chetty, are owned by Chettiars; much of the prime property on MG road is still owned by Tamil Arcot Mudaliars, another mercantilist oriented community at one time considered "as British as the British."
Now let us have some Undhiu and Khamman Dhokra, and top it off with some Rosgullas, shall we? Happy Holidays !!
Awesome. The love for good food, east or west, is the same.
They(Pillai) can be, but I believe (someone correct me) the name denotes an agriculturalist/herder.The etymology of Chetty is described as "Etti" - in tamil to jump up, to be eager, to call out as in traders calling out for business for their shops. "Pillai" or "Pillaimar" in tamil is not descriptive of agriculturist or herder. Although it could, I think they are more land owners/businessmen and also deeply involved in the shaivite rituals/poojas to the extent that other members of the community would turn towards them for help in Religious issues. All this from Sembarutthi and Malar Manjam by T. Janakiraman. and yes, they are begetarian AFAIK. Please correct if I am wrong.
sorry, vegetarian. begetarian almost sounds so deliberately misspelt. damn!!
Awesome. The love for good food, east or west, is the same.
Except Bengali food is better :P
I keed.
Somewhat off-topic, but:
In Bengali culture prestige has little to do with monetary wealth but rather with respect given to one by peers based on ones knowledge.
It's not my intention to minimise the ills of a system where social prestige correlates largely with monetary success (and Neal has already tried to break up this Xtreme Gujju LuvFest in #7 & #66 ;-)), but I submit that the effects of "respect given to one based on one's knowledge" can be a lot more tragic. Competence - or the lack thereof - in making money can be pretty easily assessed by anybody. However, knowledge (as opposed to smartness) - or the lack thereof - is hard to assess, since the lack of knowledge can be cleverly disguised by those who know the tricks of "knowledge production". Often, therefore, one will find - in communities (espicially hierarchical ones) where the knowledgable greybeard/egghead is given unconditional respect - that the greybeard/egghead's social peers actually bow to the arcana that he spouts and is supposedly the master of. (Does this remind you of someone with tenure :-))
That is how intellectual tyranny is born. And that is why I'm not at all surprised that India's intellectual bullies have come from societies where "respect given to one based on one's knowledge". Mahalanobis was one such intellectual dada. But, mark my words: intellectual dadas continue to thrive in India (even though they have taken a break from bedeviling economics). Corollary: don't be too surprised if, in an altered India 20 years hence, we see the emergence of intellectual bullies on the Right!
Gujjubhai, the fault is not merely at the hands of Nehru, Mahalanobis, Menon and suchlike, but all the people of today, living in this day and age, who still support and bolster India's socialistic ethos
The Bengali dominated Left holds the strings of the current UPA government in India
The economics that I learnt in an Indian high school was part of the Civics class implying that it was a government function. So, if you were not born into a family that ran a business you had no clue how markets worked.
I dont know which syllabus you are talking about, but the elective high school (class 11 and 12) Economics syllabus in the CBSE system does not even remotely resemble a civics class. Sure it dwells on the role of the state , role of the five year plans ,the new economic policies launched in 1991 etc, but it has equal if not greater emphasis on standard ECON 101 concepts like laws of demand and supply, and production and costs that underlie how markets work. I certainly remember solving problems for equilibrium market price and supply, etc.
Another way to think of this is, all other things being equal, who would be a more desirable mate ? A small business owner with a few million dollars in net worth in the form of motel properties or a college professor making a nice comfortable couple hundred thousand a year from salary and consulting.
I'll take/be the latter over the former any day :P
And I'd be the latter equally as quickly ;)
I'm such a friggin disappointing Gujarati
: Gita Piramal has written (in the book 'Business Maharajahs') about Bharat Shah and co. Apparently, they live in modest homes, work in modest offices (Antwerp and Mumbai), and one wouldn't know how wealthy they are, until you see one of their kitschy wedding dos.
Oh no, Palanpuris can be insanely brand-loving. As someone who is (unfortunately) related by marriage to the community, I can vouch for their Cartier fixations, and bathrooms with gold taps.
Another way to think of this is, all other things being equal, who would be a more desirable mate ? A small business owner with a few million dollars in net worth in the form of motel properties or a college professor making a nice comfortable couple hundred thousand a year from salary and consulting.
Speaking of stereotypes. As a 50% guju/50% bungu, let me just say that both groups have their ups and downs. Bungus could learn a thing or two from gujus about their work ethic, cool-headed practicality, and humble nature. Gujus on the other hand could use some pointers from bungus about placing less of a focus on money and more on education, enlightenment, and fashion (NOT!..jk y'all...i love u bungus). This of course applies more to folks in India than here due to New World evolution/blurring of the lines, etc.
Yes I know, I am a perfect hybrid.
I dont know which syllabus you are talking about, but the elective high school (class 11 and 12) Economics syllabus in the CBSE system does not even remotely resemble a civics class.I am aware of the class, but like you said it was an elective with a much smaller reach than the socialist crap taught to the kids in the civics class.
I wonder if the socialist of the 60 to 80s realize how many lives they adversely affected by having a measly 3% growth rate. The worst part was the constant villification of all Business people in all media. I saw my dad's business die a slow death due in mumbai, we had to cross the seven seas and start a new life.
Goddam socialists...... now that I got it off my chest...michhami dukkadam.
elective high school Economics syllabus
Alright young'un. Let me switch to my "In my day ..." mode.
Speaking of stereotypes. As a 50% guju/50% bungu, let me just say that both groups have their ups and downs. Bungus could learn a thing or two from gujus about their work ethic, cool-headed practicality, and humble nature. Gujus on the other hand could use some pointers from bungus about placing less of a focus on money and more on education, enlightenment, and fashion (NOT!..jk y'all...i love u bungus). This of course applies more to folks in India than here due to New World evolution/blurring of the lines, etc.
Well said.
In regards to the Chettiars, there's a book by David Rudner called 'Caste and Capitalism in Colonial India: The Nattukottai Chettiars'. I'm too lazy to dig up the link, but it's available for free on the web.
I can't believe I'm reading all this politically incorrect provincialism on a blog that skews so heavily second generation. Arre bacho, leave all this offensive, but totally true, stereotyping to us first-geners.
Two comments:
1. Gujus and their tunnel vision (oops, "dedication") for family, commerce and religion are unmatched by any other Indian ethnic group. They might be bested by only one other culture that I know as intimately as I know Gujus - the Chinese. The whole world is chasing "quality of life." The Gujus and Chinese say - "what's quality of life?" I can make this shameless assertion only because I am the biggest "Guju" of all. Life is about family, commerce and religion.
2.Entrepreneurship and economics are diametrically opposed to each other. Great writers vs. linguists. Artists vs. art critics. Vision vs. rules. Creating something yourself, whether a novel or a business, requires a completely different skill set than analyzing something that has been created by others. That is not to say that economists are any less important to mankind than entrepreneurs.
guju = highest growth rate in all of india. proud of heritage. gots it all together.
bangistan = once home to giants like tagore and vivekananda, now pseudointellectual
commie mulla hellhole.
nuf said
The general tone of this article seems to be commerce=gujjus/merchant community=good.
Is that always so? Old debate but nothing in life is an unmixed blessing. Nothing wrong with the Puneri who shuts shop at noon for a siesta or simply some downtime. And everything wrong with a Shillong where every business type (including Bengali bhadraloks) has conspired to ruin the place (and don't get me started on the ridiculous pink temple intended to be for a God but really all about business).
My observations as similiar to most of the folks here. What I'm more interested in is why this is the case.
In any large group of people, there has to be a standard bell curve distribution on specific behaviour. So there should be a few Bengalis poor in business skills, a large majority who are average, and a small minority which is excellent. If the distribution is skewed, there is usually a good reason behind it. One usually finds answers from history.
From early AD to ~1200 AD, the reign of Tamil kings flourished all over south-east asia. The area from Burma to Indonesia was largely peaceful, and trade with China and the far-east flourished in the whole region. During this time, Bengalis were excellent businessmen. Moreover they had location to their advantage, since Bay of Bengal could be used as a shipping route and it was bang on the doorway to SE Asia. This was a period of great wealth and prosperity.
A century or so after the fall of Tamil kings, and the conversion of SE into Buddhism, there was peace, but the non-materilism of the new religion drove the lands from plentiful to below average within a couple of generations. This brought instability, and wars broke out. Throughout the last 800 years or so, they've been at each others' throats. Bengal's largest market popped like a bubble. Business became a bad word. The populace turned to intellectual debates and the like. Something similiar happened in the Tamil population around the same time.
Gujarat, on the other hand, has been trading since Roman times. During Mohammed's reign, the Mediterranian coast was filled with Gujarathi trading enclaves. Even after the invasions from Arabia and Persia, Gujarat remained a business center because the Europeans continued to flock there for spices. Later, Africa became a major trading partner. There has been a continuity in trade - hence you see that Gujjus are street smart no matter where they go.
But this is not without its price. A steady, peaceful continuity of trade meant that the populace lost its marital instincts. To this day, the representation of Gujjus in the Indian army is poor. Here again, the standard bell-curve distribution is skewed.
And yes - dhokhlas and rosgullas will definitely make my day!
M. Nam
If gujjus are such great entrepeneurs and businessmen why is Gujarat so poor? Its per capita income is what $600 or 700 a year? Thats about the level of subsaharan Africa.
I submit that the effects of "respect given to one based on one's knowledge" can be a lot more tragic. Competence - or the lack thereof - in making money can be pretty easily assessed by anybody. However, knowledge (as opposed to smartness) - or the lack thereof - is hard to assess, since the lack of knowledge can be cleverly disguised by those who know the tricks of "knowledge production".
That is *so* true. A benefit to me from debating with the pseudo-intellectual Bongs was that I very quickly learnt the difference between smart and well-read. I understood that most Bongs confuse the two to be the same - if you can quote Trotsky or Marx's take on anything, then you are smart. I took particular pleasure in taking on the standard lefty nonsense and then watching them squirm as they were left struggling for counterarguments that they could not draw upon from their extensive bookish knowledge. What I found them particularly lacking in was the critical examination of any such ideas or arguments and the ability to do any independent analysis starting from first principles in econ. Which, of course, stand to reason because even an elementary application of logic is sufficient to demolish most of the statist arguments so they would not have been letists in the first place if they had done any analysis based on evidence or reasoning on their own. Of course, it'd also not help when I'd start laughing out loud at the first mention of the word "bourgoiuse" as I - being a full-blooded Gujju having descended from a line of traders, of course - would've normally placed a side-bet with someone else on how quickly that word would appear in the conversation (I think my running average was about 7 minutes) into the debate and pocket some "chai-pani" money too :-).
If gujjus are such great entrepeneurs and businessmen why is Gujarat so poor? Its per capita income is what $600 or 700 a year? Thats about the level of subsaharan Africa.
That probably has a lot to do with caste discrimination.
If gujjus are such great entrepeneurs and businessmen why is Gujarat so poor? Its per capita income is what $600 or 700 a year? Thats about the level of subsaharan Africa.That probably has a lot to do with caste discrimination.
Caste discrimination exists in other states as well. That cant explain why Gujarat is about as poor as the rest of India. At least you would expect it to be the wealthiest state in India. Thats not the case though.
That cant explain why Gujarat is about as poor as the rest of India.
Ummm...because it's *not*? From Wiki: "The economy of Gujarat shows that it is one of the most prosperous states of the country, having a per-capita GDP 2.47 times India's average. Of all the states, Gujarat controls some of the largest businesses in India. According to the data published by "Center for Monitoring Indian Economy" or CMIE, Gujarat ranked third among all the states of India in 2004, approximately same as Punjab and Maharashtra, at Rs. 15,800 [4]."
The economics that I learnt in an Indian high school was part of the Civics class implying that it was a government function. So, if you were not born into a family that ran a business you had no clue how markets worked.
I agree. I had no concept of markets until college. Even then it was presented as this evil thing, a new form of colonization and so on. School syllabi talked about economics as a function of govt, as you said.
CBSE syllabus was very different from ours (Maharashtra state). Our syllabus did NOT have ANY econ in it whatsoever, which sucks.
Also, business was seen as something outside my culture and caste (a bengali AND a brahmin, so there's a double whammy). "Business? Yuck, that's what those dirty greedy Marwaris and Gujjus do!". In our family, traditionally the IAS bureaucrat was the highest one could have aspired for.
That cant explain why Gujarat is about as poor as the rest of India. Ummm...because it's *not*? From Wiki: "The economy of Gujarat shows that it is one of the most prosperous states of the country, having a per-capita GDP 2.47 times India's average
Never trust Wikipedia as your only source of information. If that was true Gujarat would have a per capita income of around $1500 a year, which is FAR from reality. In 2004-5 Gujarat had a per capita income of Rs 28,355 which is around $630 a year. By contrast Punjab had a per capita income of Rs 30,701. With a population around 5% of the Indian total Gujarat contributed around 7% to the total GDP. Official Gujarat government source:
http://financedepartment.gujarat.gov.in/pdf/frbmbook_eng.pdf
If gujjus are such great capitalists why is Gujarat so poor? $600-700 a year in per capita income is poor even by third world standards.
I didn't say that it was exclusive to Gujurat... The economic impact of caste based discrimination is often underestimated. If 20-30% of the population (or more) is unable to exercise their full productivity/potential, mean measures of the economy is definitely going to get pulled down. It would be interesting to see some statistics on the GDP/capita of the advantaged castes, though I doubt it its possible to measure.
truthseeker,
Excellent question. Firstly, the successive governments in Gujarat were anything but business friendly. Secondly, Mumbai (Bombay) was the center of commerce for decades. Any self-respecting nephew/cousin would land up at his established relative's place in Borivli, Vile Parle or Napean Sea road (you take your pick). He would work as an apprentice in the shop/mill/brokerage/company and then move his way up. That explains why a large percentage of business -from small to mega - are controlled by Gujaratis in Mumbai.
A similar trend is visible in the US. I've observed Patels operate in a particular state in the US (they used to sponsor the cricket club my fellow MS students and I played in). They follow the same pattern. Here's a typical story - A cousin/nephew etc gets pushed out by his parents (dikra jao ni!), comes to Oklahoma City, Baton Rouge, Boise, Birmingham and other non-glamorous places. He is alloted a small shady motel, the sort that plays dirty movies over cable tv and rents rooms by the hour. Him and his wife plus two Mexican illegals comprise the staff. They have troubles with cops, drug dealers, INS etc. But they stick it out. And here's the amazing thing. The relative who sets him up pays him only for expenses. He deposits the "salary" in a trust (could be a bank account), in order to teach him to be frugal and responsible. When sufficient money has been saved, he gives him that lump sum and helps him with an additional loan to set up a bigger franchise - could be a Ramada, a Days Inn, series of Dry Cleaning shops etc. The next relative who comes on board gets to run the shady motel. Within some years, the guy who got upgraded to a Days Inn is wealthy enough to repeat this cycle with his or his wife's relatives.
It is quite amazing to see the transition. I've seen them in all shades - the crude rustic from a village who runs the shady motel (he could also be a displaced East African Patel too, who came via Panama), the rough cut diamond who runs Days Inn, the street-smart urbane Holiday Inn dude and the suave senior patriarch who now runs a chain in many cities, votes Republican, goes to Kiwanis and sponsors India Independence Day celebrations while playing host to a Bollywood star. Absolute hard work, a flexible attitude towards rules/ethics (not all of them), total clan loyalty, a joint family-like system with help given to extended relations, and an ability to work doggone hard and not care about "what people think" makes them highly successful.
A fellow Kannadiga on the other hand would go; "What shady motel??? Who do you think I am. I've got Status saar. I'll have my filter kaafi by two, thank you."
"If gujjus are such great capitalists why is Gujarat so poor? $600-700 a year in per capita income is poor even by third world standards."
One cannot simply look at the absolute income numbers to determine the Capitalist quotient of the Gujarati people.I grew up for the first 18 years in Gujarat in a upper middle class family. I moved to US recently and living in moderately large city in the heartland in a household with a income of about 70K. Let me tell you that I have hardly experienced any change in my lifestyle or comfort. Coming from such a background,it surprised me that that living in Gujarat and in the US so similar than is normally portrayed or assumed. i guess what i am trying to say is that compared to other states, the middle class, as a percentage of population, is huge.
Talking of Being market friendly, let this be an indicator of the "capitalistness" of the Gujarati people.
"Gujarati-promoted companies account for around 24.83% of the total private market capital (in BSE), if one also includes the Gujarati-speaking Parsis who contribute around 7.66% to the figure. Marwaris promoted companies take 10.97% of the market cap."
The number of Gujarati PSUs listed on the markets outnumbers any state.
Another point to be made here is that compared to other states, Gujarat is highly urbanized (34%). Four main cities of Gujarat: Ahmedabad, Baroda, Surat, Rajkot have population over a million. Urbanization being a sign of a more developed economy is ECON101.
Heck, even the barbershop talk on a lazy a Sunday morning is regularly on the markets.
Another indicator: "Gujarat Samachar", which is the leading daily, in every edition devotes at least 6-8 pages (not including pages of stock market, mutual fund and commodities price tables) and on market and business news (which are way more insightful and indepth than TOI and Express).
The talk between relatives and friends of the family is very often on which uncle made a killing in recent boom and kone taal padi gayi (who went bust).