December 15, 2006
Who does and doesn’t meat eat?Food
I’ve long been fascinated by the demographics of vegetarianism. I’m an omnivore, but one who eats a lot less meat than my peers, so they confuse my insistence that we order a vegetable dish (when eating out family style) with an unwillingness to consume animal flesh.
In the UK, it seems that vegetarians are smarter:
… those who were vegetarian by [age] 30 had recorded five IQ points more on average at the age of 10. [Link]
Although this study is flawed by its overly broad definition of vegetarian:
Twenty years after the IQ tests were carried out in 1970, 366 of the participants said they were vegetarian - although more than 100 reported eating either fish or chicken. [Link]
Unfortunately, they don’t report adjusted scores, so really what they’re talking about here is an unwillingness to eat beef, which makes them … well, like many Hindus I know.
With the definitional caveat, in general, this is what they find about veggies:
Vegetarians were more likely to be female, to be of higher occupational social class and to have higher academic or vocational qualifications than non-vegetarians. [Link]
Researchers find something similar in India, where vegetarians are more likely to be female and of higher social status.
Vegetarianism is declining in India, to the point where vegetarians are now a minority, with only 40% of the population. This is apparently a major shift from the recent past.
The older generation remains more vegetarian than the younger, women more so than men, Brahmins more than other castes, and religious Hindus more than non-religious Hindus, Muslims, or Christians.
This is a seismic cultural shift for India. While India will remain far more veg friendly than the US or UK for a long time to come, I’m wondering about the cultural ramifications that accompany the situation where vegetarianism is associated with a narrow minority. Once upon a time, you could not get meat on the streets of Ahmedabad, now the road by IIM is lined with little 3 wheelers selling chicken.
What happens to Indian society and culture when it undergoes a fundamental shift in its eating habits? How will it change?
ennis on December 15, 2006 10:31 AM in Food · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
I live in Ahmedabad and I've noticed a growing trend toward meat-serving lorry-wallahs as well, whilst I don't eat the stuff myself, a bunch of my more carnivorous friends are finding pretty creative places in which meat is served. Infact, there are certain places on Ashram road in which the menu seems vegetarian but meat is served by request and marketed through word of mouth. However, Gujarat is still 90% vegetarian, which is pretty remarkable. From what I hear a lot of the meat-eaters are college students and young professionals from neighbouring states. I still find Ahmedabad to be very conservative on its views toward meat and of course alcohol, which can still be acquired relatively easily and efficiently on the black market, despite Gujarat being a dry state
I don't think the culture as a whole will change that much, since in Indian cuisine, unlike most Western ones, meat is not an integral part of every meal. While I know many Indians who feel starved unless they eat meat at least once a day, they aren't exactly sitting down for a large steak. They are usually eating meat as part of a larger meal that includes dal, vegetables, rice, or roti--i.e. no one has to cook an entirely separate meal for a vegetarian family member or guest--they just won't eat the meat dish. Contrast that with an American family having chicken pot pies for dinner: the entire meal has meat in it, so a separate meal would have to be cooked for a vegetarian. Also, meat in India still tends to be relatively expensive so most people can't afford to eat it every day. And a lot of these "non-vegetarians" probably only eat meat at restaurants, not at home. Coming from a large extended family of both voracious meat eaters and staunch vegetarians, I can say that no one has every had trouble finding enough to eat at one of our family meals. Living in the US I still cook meat sparingly--I just don't feel like I need to eat it that often.
Only 55% of Brahmins are pure-veggies? Somehow I thought that number would be higher.
I can't speak to what will happen to Indian culture but the shift is happening in other places too...
I've been vegetarian for 16 years and in the beginning (high school) the only other vegetarians I knew were desis and american/west indian blacks. I was the only veg latina. In latino communities ( I have family in Jersey City, Union City, Brooklyn), I was viewed with suspicion or as a joke. If I requested 'no carne' or vegetariano, I got meat anyway, served with giggles. Maybe part of that was my being female or a teenager, I'm not sure.
Now, if I go into a cafe and order, it's like, normal. Many of my family members who were born in the states or lived here more than two decades have converted to vegetarian. When my cousins from Colombia came here a couple years ago they thought not eating meat was loco. Now, after a couple years, they have reduced their meat consumption too. Maybe not eating meat (in the states) implies you are climbing the prosperity ladder?
just as important as the cultural ramifications are the environmental ones, with meat- production being far more resource-greedy.
Does this have something to do with greater health-consciousness in this demographic? I've been gradually getting more and more veggie in the past year or so, just as part of a natural process of maintaining my physical shape. I wonder if that happens to others too.
I'm an omnivore that was raised in a veggie TamBram household. I still don't keep meat in my apartment, mostly because I don't know how to cook any meat dishes, but I'll eat it when I go out. I've been thinking of going fully veggie for some time now, as I don't feel it would be all that difficult. If I decide to do so, it will be for environmental reasons and not moral/religious ones.
I only eat red meat. Beat that.
I should probably clarify what I said about my immigrant relatives and meat. The first year they were here, 5 adults, 2 children, everybody put on between 10 and 25 pounds because they ate so much more, including much more meat than back home because it is more plentiful/cheaper. They also indulged in fast food regularly. Now they eat meat for dinner instead of for every meal. Does anybody see a correlation here with more/less meat eating and their own freshly arrived relatives?
They were also flabbergasted that Americans eat garlic. Wow.
I don't see non-vegetarianism having any impact on the culture. I am a Brahmin and many of my family members eat meat. They are not allowed to eat meat at home (to maintain the sanctity of the house!). It's only at restaurants. When we go out with the extended family, they just eat veggie food and act like they don't eat meat. It's the white elephant in the room that the older generation tries to ignore. (Yes, eating meat is a big deal in my family and people do it anyway.) Most Indian weddings don't serve meat, either. It's expensive and not sacred to serve meat during weddings. Even my omnivorous friends don't serve meat at weddings to be veggie friendly.
Though my mother downplays it as a factor, I think my being a life-long vegetarian (Yes. Even in the womb.) is a massive turn-off to blood-thirsty Christian Malayalee boys who can't live without their beef curry or meen. Most of the Malayalees I interact with (specifically those who never met my Father, who is the reason why we're strict veg in the first place) view vegetarianism with derision and suspicion.
I'm squeamish, too, so I can't cook it for others the way my Vegan sister and veg Hindu gf do. I find this entire situation massively annoying, since every North Indian or hell, South Indian Hindu boyfriend I've ever had has a vegetarian Mother, Grandmother etc and probably because of that views my diet respectfully. I give up. Time to find a nice Hindu boy. Please be sending biodata to the Ennis.
no mention in the post about us
naughtyveggie by nature Jains!This discussion about vegetarianism is interesting. Being a vegetarian myself, I am curious to find out if there's any other place where the concept of vegetarianism arose like in India. I find it annoying when people (usually in the West) assume that I eat chicken and fish after I tell them that I'm a vegetarian. They ask again to double check if chicken and fish are included in my diet.
Regarding comment #3, a lot of Brahmins in Bihar (Bhumihars) eat meat, which might account for the surprisingly low number of Brahmins being vegetarians. Also, I think almost everyone in West Bengal eats fish.
I've noticed the growth in American veggies as well. Maybe Americans are getting smarter ;)
Not to play devil's advocate unnecessarily, but is that really so uncommon? Perhaps it's just the people I know, but many of my acquaintances who're ostensibly vegetarian don't always exclude seafood or eggs (for example) from their diets. I remember one in particular, who upon being given a vegetarian version of the meal she wanted, was annoyed because they'd excluded the shrimp. She always was a crazy bitch though, so obviously I'm not setting her up as the standard.
I end up eating meat/chicken/fish now almost every meal except breakfast. This is a huge change from 10 years ago, in India growing up, when I ate non-veg about once a week.
While I admit eating quite a bit of meat, I want to cut down. What troubles me is the resource-intensity of a calorie of meat vs. grains/veggies. I can't find the stats right now, but a pound of beef requires insane amounts of water, land and grain (which requires even more water and land). The nutritional advantage is questionable at best.
SkepMod,
Wiki has some good info on environmental vegetarianism.
Also, could someone please explain to me how fish and chicken became separated from meat? It has baffled me since childhood. I define meat as any dead animal. What kind of definition is involved where fish and chicken are excluded?
ANNA: You have never dated a Muslim boy or a boy born to Muslim parents? You are missing out on some of the finer things in life!
I concur with you Anna... I wouldn't and couldn't cook it for anyone.
In medical school a ton of women went vegetarian/vegan..and they still practice. A lot for social/health issues. Some just found animal slaughter morally wrong. To each their own.
Now where the heck is my Morningstar Burger?
My mom was a vegetarian her entire life - most women in India were while men sometimes ate meat. When my parents came to America after they got married, they were working such long hours that the only thing they had energy to eat at the end of the day was a Big Mac from McDonald's. And to think, if there had been more veggie-friendly fast food options back in the day, I might have grown up a vegetarian .. and my meat loving hubby would have never married me .. and I'd still be living in Cali .. ok I'm stopping now.
Yes, I'm also waiting for answers to the same questions. I think some Catholics exclude fish from non-vegetarian items.
I find the inclusion of fowl more puzzling than that of fish. Birds are clearly meat, although not mammal meat. Fish is very different, in taste, feel and other things.
Still, it's funny that in India some people don't consider you vegetarian if you eat eggs, whereas in the UK some people call themselves vegetarian even though they eat Chicken!
p.s. I'd give up chicken before I gave up on Lamb ... it's hard to get non-factory farmed chicken, I have to buy directly from some small farmers. I figure Lamb is pretty much free range ...
Yes speaking as a Catholic, we exclude fish from 'meat'. Meat is mainly beef /pork. In Lent, we are supposed to refrain from meat on Fridays, so we eat fish instead.
That's not what my Jat Sikh boyfriends said. :D
.
.
.
KIDDING! I am so kidding. (well, they said it, but I didn't believe it. my high school crush was pakistani.)
I've heard this from a lot of my friends too.
I'm not a big fan of burgers, but whenever I order one, I make it a point to request a veggie burger (i.e. don't put the meat 'patty'..just the veggies and cheese will do for me). I usually get varied reactions while ordering this..people double check to confirm that I want just the veggies and no "good stuff" in my burger.
This is a vegetarian(ism) thread, no meat please. We did that last week for hundreds of comments, a very long tale about some very short tails. Today we're discussing something different.
Wow, on that page of stats:
73% of the respondents believe that the government should ban the consumption of alcohol
That's a very sharp contrast to American society. While many Indian-Americans seem to remain vegetarian (or convert back to being vegetarian between 10 and 20 years old), I believe that drinking has been much more broadly adopted by us second-generationers.
Did anybody ever try out the BK Veggie Burger? The only such thing I eat is the traditional gardenburger - largely b/c they're a fast meal at the end of a long day. Have never tried to order the BK Veggie at a fast food outlet, although their web site says they're still being offered.
You're better for it. They taste like ass. Dry, cardboard, flavor-free ass. Meanwhile, in the UK, their wedgie burgers were great (AND they had mozzarella HEARTS on the menu- sooo cute). Not fair. They have better vegetarian food AND better looking people.
(ducks)
That should explain those numbers.
I can relate to Anna's comment about meat-loving malayalee christian brothers. One of them is a colleague that sits right next to me and we end up, a statistically significant number of times on the veg vs. non-veg needling of each other. Me, being the TamBram veggie, once remarked to him that I thought the distance between a meat-eater and a cannibal is shorter than the distance between a veggie and non-veggie, provoking him for days to wonder about that comment. :)
But are you single? And of suitable age? Inquiring monkeys want to know!
Ahmedabad used to be hostile towards non-vegetarians. You could only find vegetarian restaurants on one side of the city because the people refused to set foot in non-vegetarian ones. Certain apartment complexes insisted on you being vegetarian if you wanted to rent/buy a place there. Some of them even have separate buildings for non-vegetarians, always located downwind from the vegetarian ones.
I wonder if this is still the case today.
The relation between IQ and vegetarianism is tenuous at best.
From the BBC article:
Looks like I'm good to go as long as they dont involve booze in that equation :-)
Woo. Yes, that's us. Allegedly. We have ducks on the menu too. They taste fantastic.
Steak? Roast chicken? Even turkey? Am I the only person who thinks that 5 IQ points is a fair price to pay for such delicious carnivorous delights?
http://www.1stoppostershop.com/products/McGaw/celebrities/mg_GeorgeTheTimelessArtOfS.jpg
Sorry to deflate your hopes
McDonalds used to have a pretty good veggieburger option here in Britain, although it's not as widely available as it used to be (in my experience, anyway). Burger King have a pretty good veggie but an outstanding Spicy Beanburger -- mixture of kidney beans, pepper, some kind of spicy tex-mex-type concoction (appears to me to be refried beans in the mexican style), deep-fried in (I think) breadcrumbs, with a slice of cheese and a couple of slices of tomato, with ketchup. Excellent stuff.
Not on this website they're not ;)
*laughs and ducks like Anna*
This study is idiotic. Vegetarians being more intelligent than meat eaters flies in the face of what is known about human evolution and the effects of protein on the development of the brain. All other factors being equal it is absurd to think that a vegetable based diet is "better" for your intelligence than a meat based diet.
There was a study in LA years back where they found that woman who drank bottled water had a lower rate of miscarriage than women that drank out of the tap. Everyone freaked and thought that the city's water supply was messed up somehow. In fact, the truth was that women who drank bottled water were wealthier and had access to better pre-natal care, etc. It had NOTHING to do with the water. Similarly, vegetarians in the western world (as in this study) are vegetarians by choice and because they have access to enough non-meat based protein, and are probably wealthier. Wealthier people generally have higher IQs. If you'll note, around the holidays food banks put out special requests for people to donate tuna, specifically because of its high protein content which is something homeless people are lacking. There is more protein per calorie in meat than in vegetables which is one of the reasons why Homo sapien started eating meat in the first place. Brain development hungers for protein and oxygen.
This is just silly "pop science."
Aiyoo, Rajni the Monkey, vhy you vant to know, single vingle age vage, vhy it matters?
Drummers do it in rhythm, that's what matters.
Climb down those branches and look here
for the canadians among us who subscribe to the walrus - the latest issue - has a photoessay on what we eat around the world - the family patkar from india is profiled and their budget runs to $45 or so it seems to be heavy on grain and veggies.
fyi the canadian budget is ~$400 and one canadian family has narwhal and elk on its table. Do take a look, it is very iluminating. for instance the kuwaiti family included their 2 nepali 'servants' as part of the family...
i'm afraid the essay is currently only available to print editiion subscribers or for a modest fee. that reminds me the chicago airport seems to have a very very very interesting photo exhibition from around the world in a similar vein - on how we live - it is at the transit terminal where you can get on to the hotel shuttles or take the mta. do look it up.
it makes me feel warm and fuzzy when i think about it. and i'm not wearing any pants right now.
All of a sudden, so much is made clear. ;)
Despite my fondness for meat (no jokes involving rump roast, prime rib, tenderloin and the like, if you please), I occasionally go through hard-core "I only want to eat vegetarian food" phases; I've found that the UK did far outdo the US in terms of both flavour and options. I was bummed though, because I couldn't find the Morningstar Farms Spicy Black Bean Burger at any Tesco in Zone 1. It was saddening.
Then again, it just meant that I got to eat a hella lot more hash browns.
Damn straight!!
Here is some light on the relation between meat and resources required to produce it.
Find the article here.
Some snippets
I am myself a born vegetarian turned non-vegetarian considering going back into the vegetarian fold.
I tried for almost a good year to be veg. My Punjabi husband, after making many veg only means -- tastie meals, would comment, "honey what's with all of the side dishes, where's dinner?
The man wore me down.
Hey the BK veggie burger is not so bad! Actually, it's the only thing that they make fresh when you order -- you can find whoppers sitting around for hours.
As for including eggs in the vegetarian diet, my veterinarian friend pointed out that eggs are an animal byproduct. If you can drink milk, you can eat eggs. They will produce eggs regularly and only when it's fertilized does it have potential. You're not "killing" when you eat eggs. But, yeah I've gotten dirty looks in India for eating an egg (I was traumatized at 10).
BTW, I'm a born again vegetarian.
I ordered eggs florentine at a cafe in DC a couple of months ago with no meat. Waitress brings it out with a thick slice of ham. I looked at it and said, "but I asked for no meat." Waitress says "That's not meat, that's ham."
????
It's a bit of a hassle being vegetarian in America, especially if you loathe salads like I do, or like fully cooked, flavorful food. I have mad respect for people who were raised in America and are (or turn) vegetarian. If I wasn't raised in strictly veg home for 14 years in India, I'm not certain I would still be 100% veg.
Ennis,
The following Brahman communities are non-vegetarian; Maithils, Asomiya, Begali, Oriya, Sarasvat, and Kashmiri, as once were all Brahman communities 1000s of years ago. And I am not sure of the Pahadi brahman communities of Garhwal, Nepal, Java, Bali, Siam, Anam, and Khamboja. Many migrant Brahmans in the Caribbean are non-vegetarian, which could mean that the shift to a vegetarian diet may be more recent and not due to the popularity of vanaprastha and sanyasa that was enhanced following the times of Buddha and Mahavira who BTW did not found the ascetic tradition, simply made it a little more popular.
Hindus at one time may have eaten beef; but today many will not. So let's respect that sentiment and leave it at that. We aren't about to discuss other types of meat - forbidden or otherwise right? You can find Hindus relishing many other kinds of meat - the Mahabharata talks of rishis enjoying venison.
Vegetarianism is popular not only among Hindus today, but also among some orthodox Jews (who find it's easier to observe kosher as a vegetarian), and of course from many other faith groups. The 7th Day Adventists are ovo-lacto vegs. No onion/no garlic veganism is a long standing Buddhist inspired dietary custom, in China, Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam etc. In Phuket you have a week-long vegan eating festival everyhwere with plenty of mock meat grillz.
Bengali Hindus and Gujarati Hindus are possibly the least clannish Hindus anywhere; because the former are all non-vegetarian, and latter all vegetarian! As a rule Indian Airlines at one time would serve chicken only NV meals. The only time I have had mutton was when I flew out once out of Ahmedabad to Delhi many years ago!
Is India gradually moving towards factory farming as is practiced in the US and Europe? I'm all for the increased protein in people's diets, most Indians need more protein BADLY, plus I think we cook the best non-veg food in the world, but the ecologic implications of > 1 billion potential meat-eaters are staggering. That being said, children especially should have plenty of milk and eggs (at least the egg whites) while growing, and ideally meat too. I think factory farming is inevitable in India, and will be even more disgusting than it is here, given the shortage of space and general disregard for animal welfare (except the cows of course).
Building on shiva's comment, as far as I know not one of the major Hindu texts calls for a vegetarian diet. My understanding, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, was that Hinduism adopted vegetarianism to differentiate itself from the Mughals and at the same time deal with the increasing popularity of Bhuddism, which did call for a vegetarian diet.
Building on shiva's comment, as far as I know not one of the major Hindu texts calls for a vegetarian diet.
Not true. See Thirvalluvar; Manu.
Relevant verses from the Tamil sage Valluvar:
Verse 251 How can he practice true compassion Who eats the flesh of an animal to fatten his own flesh?
Verse 252 Riches cannot be found in the hands of the thriftless, Nor can compassion be found in the hearts of those who eat meat.
Verse 253 Goodness is never one with the minds of these two: One who wields a weapon ad one who feasts on a creatures' flesh.
Verse 254 If you ask, "What is kindness and what is unkind?" It is not killing and killing. Thus, eating flesh is never virtuous.
Verse 255 Life is perpetuated by not eating meat. The clenched jaws of hell hold those who do.
Verse 256 If the world did not purchase and consume meat, There would be none to slaughter and offer meat for sale.
Verse 257 When a man realizes that meat is the butchered flesh Of another creature, he must abstain from eating it.
Verse 258 Perceptive souls who have abandoned passion Will not feed on flesh abandoned by life.
Verse 259 Greater then a thousand ghee offerings consumed in sacrificial fires Do not do sacrifice and consume any living creature.
Verse 260 All that lives will press palms together in prayerful adoration Of those who refuse to slaughter and savor meat.
My understanding, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, was that Hinduism adopted vegetarianism to differentiate itself from the Mughals and at the same time deal with the increasing popularity of Bhuddism, which did call for a vegetarian diet.
Correct me if I am wrong, but did Buddhism not die out before the time of the Mughals, except in Bengal, and wasn't vegetaranism adopted a long time before the advent of the Mughals, a long time before, when there was an competition between Buddhism and Hinduism for the heart and soul of adherents, which was when, Hinduism co-opted vegetarianism, and a ban on animal sacrifice, the concept of ahimsa, or noninjury to animals, n order with theological matters?
But would Valluvar a sacred text of Hinduism? I was thinking more along the lines of the Vedas, Gita, etc. I don't ask this to be sarcastic, I just don't know.
I meant to say, along with some theology
Also, for the "social/world hunger" angle, I think there are much better ways to get your protein that are more environmentally friendly.
This is def. true, but there are so many great veggie/vegan cookbooks nowadays that make this a bit easier. Maybe I am a snob, but I think "American" cuisine is generally flavorless and boring anyway :) I also think it's easier to be veg if you live somewhere where there is more of a "hippie lifestyle" or a place with a lot of lactose intolerant people. Just living in the Bay, it has been like night and day to watch the number of veggie/vegan health food products available sky-rocket and also just taste better. Try being a Punjabi allergic to dairy products. It really sucks :(
Also, my understanding of the scripture was that, along with ahimsa, or noninjury of animals, people believed that some of the characteristic of animals were transferred (mystically?) to people who eat meat. That is, baser tendencies tend to arise more easily if one eats meat. That was the explanation I was given in my family, and this explanation was also what I encountered in the Hare Krishna meeting I went to last time. If someone wants to correct me on this, please do so.
I am curious to find out if there's any other place where the concept of vegetarianism arose like in India
yes. see the pythogoreans or essenes, though some might assert this is the influence of indian gymnosophists.
But would Valluvar a sacred text of Hinduism? I was thinking more along the lines of the Vedas, Gita, etc. I don't ask this to be sarcastic, I just don't know.
I would say so. There is an orthodox understanding which preferences shruti (the Vedas) over smriti (like the Mahabharata, Manu, and Ramayana). Pragmatically, the Kural is held in sacred esteem. Its often referred to as Tamil Veda.
Also, most "injunctions" in Hindu texts tend to be descriptive rather than prescriptive in any case.
even within the organic faction - there are two schools of thought - one believes in a 'factory-like' large scale production and the other in a holistic way of life - practice water recycling, compost generation etc.
organic is not fancy schmancy - the concept of factory farming is just morally repugnant to me. there's no non-cruel way of killing animals for meat but ... to detach from the process of killing is something i can not stomach . and frankly i make enough money to pay ten times what i would pay for meat - so why the heck should i support the slaughterhouses. .. more later. got to run.
The problem with the "we got it from Buddhism" argument is that the Buddha never prohibited meat. Pragmatist that he was, only prohibited monks from accepting meat offerings slaughtered specificaly for them. There is more merit, imo, in influence coming from Sam Harris's favorite religion.
OTOH, the only place to get pure vegetarian food in China is from Buddhist monasteries.
In my city (and my former cities) I have usually lived amongst other carribean/south american folks who, smack in the middle of the inner city might have a veggie garden, several chickens and a goat. This actually kind of relates to Siddhartha's Venkatesh post in that part of our 'underground economy' was the trade or sale of eggs, chickens, rabbits and goat milk/meat, etc. during the warmer months.
My neighbors next door are from the west indies. They say they are vegetarians but they eat fish. They have rabbits, chickens and nine dogs in their yard, along with four non-working cars, vegetable garden and a thriving sewing business/auto mechanic. It may not sound sanitary but I just wash the eggs before breaking them. The neighbors down the way sell goats milk products. I'm suspicious of the milk but I eat the cheese.
So there you go, come on down and get yer fresh cheap protein from my block, no factory farming and you support the underground economy to boot!
Anyone heard of Dr. Peter Singer? He was on the Colbert Report the other day talking about his new book The Way We Eat: Why Our Food Choices Matter.
Thought it would be relevant to topic being discussed.
another random moral conundrum.
so i am shopping for bhindi (okra) - and this being canada, the only option is to get it in the frozen foods section. i pick up this pack - it says 'product of india' - and i go hmmm... i really want to have the bhindi tonite... but i dont feel good about the transportation baggage. i will always buy local if i have the option. let me look around... and there's another pack.. it says packaged in canada, but product of guatemala. now i'm really at a moral impasse... ultimately i ended up getting the indian bhindi because it was packaged whole.
'twas a foul predicament but we made it across.
hairy_d,
If you lived down here you'd get your $2 chicken from your neighbors down the alley and the moral conundrum of transportation baggage would be erased. Of course, you'd have to kill and pluck it yourself. ;) My grandma taught me how.
Come to think of it, maybe that's why I am a vegetarian.
This is a fascinating article by a quebec vet mulling over our disconnect between pets and livestock.
she makes sense. do read it over if you get the chance.
hairy_d: what you said.
vinay: I am reading this book now. I think Singer is pretty interesting and have been following his work for a few years now. He is a pretty controversial guy (not in an Ann Coulter kind of way) and, in my opinion, a tremendous status quo pushing thought leader and philosopher.
Have you read Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy by Mathew Scully (New York: St. Martins Press, 2002)? For those who dismiss Peter Singer as a way out contrarian leftie, Dominion is a provokative call for humans to discover their moral responsibilities for animalkind (Scully is a religious conservative and the former senior speechwriter for George W. Bush).
His overall argument is a bit slippery to handle with ease and it goes a little something like this--Scully starts off by saying animals don't have any rights, per se (as in legal rights; and although humans can be punished in a court of law for animal abuse, it isn't because the rights of the animal have been compromised, it's because the human has been beastly) and goes on to develop "powerful arguments behalf of animals moral claims and humankinds corresponding responsibility to animals. Laws protecting animals from mistreatment, abuse, and exploitation are not a moral luxury or sentimental afterthought to be shrugged off, he says. They are a serious moral obligation. Refuting the idea that morality is a mere matter of culture, opinion, and choice, castigating the caprice that allows us to treat animals whom we know with some decency while condemning animals in farms and laboratories to lives of ceaseless misery, he declares that the moral claims of other creatures are facts about those creatures, regardless of when or where or whether it pleases us to recognize them.
Please go to (www.satyamag.com/mar03/davis2.html) to read the rest of this review. Warning: the review and the book are not easy reads. You might get sick, you might cry, you might get sick and cry. Tissues.
and hairy_d:
Eggsactly. No seriously, exactly. Dominion gets to this very place as well. Thanks for linking this I will check it out.
Heh. Don't get me started on how people treat their pets. I've read enough instances of people preferring their pets to their children. I don't want animals to suffer unnecessary cruelty but I don't want to treat them like little humans either. They're not.
If you did that, though, we would also have to talk about the prevalence of domestic animal abuse and its indicator of future violence against humans :)
What im curious to know is how many meat-eaters would be willing to slaughter their dinner themselves? Sometimes seems hypocritical to me, when people balk at the sight of animal slaughter but drool at a steak on a platter. The detachment from the act of killing, how it makes life simpler for meat-eaters and armchair war wagers. If I could stand the taste of meat, I'm sure I'd find solace in the "its dead anyway" argument.
I should stay out of this thread since my previous omnivorous comments really grossed out ANNA.
So my alternate two cents: why do people assume that carnivores don't like veggies? Sri Lankan veg dishes are a delight, and now that I've got two curry plants (yeah, that's right. potted in my apartment. I feel your envy) I can go nuts making beetroot and snake gourd and yellow dahl and okra and all those yummy, fragrant, deeelishes veg curries.
It's just a shame that Americans don't know how to cook vegetables. It's getting better, as many already pointed out, but damn...how do you vegetarians eat when on a road trip or in a small-town diner? You don't have much besides some form of potato (fries, hash, baked, au gratin) or fruit. The America vegetarians I've known had horrible diets - they seemed to subsist on fries, carrot sticks, cheese, cereal and pudding cups.
You'd have to fire up that stove and cook first :P
[ducking]
Yes, I agree and somewhat addressed the issue here.
There is something primitive about eating meat. I think we need to face it and not try to dress it up by deboning or reshaping. It's hypocritical to coo at little bunny wabbits or scream at people who wear fur or put your little doggie in a $200 sweater while happily tearing into a steak. For me, it's more about not wasting anything. So yeah I'd support more humane ways of rearing chickens and cattle, etc. and I think it would be more cost effective if we produced less meat and use/eat all the parts of already killed animals. The "its dead anyway" doesn't make sense to me, since they killed it in the first place because you'll eat it. If you need to justify it, don't eat it. But if you do, don't waste. Don't be a picky eater.
I agree completely (except for the fact Cicatrix that carnivores by definition don't like veggies and you meant to use the term omnivore :). I eat meat but I love ALL veggies and most fruits. I can't think of a single vegetable I won't eat. I can think of plenty of meats I won't eat however. Sometimes when I go to my favorite Thai restaurant I order tofu because I want to and not because I am trying to be nice and not offend my vegetarian dinner companions (like they assume). End rant.
er, that previous comment was supposed to sign off with
/aunty cicatrix>
Ennis, you'd better duck! All the slowly rotting veggies I bought but never cooked are being aimed at your head right now!
Sometimes when I go to my favorite Thai restaurant I order tofu because I want to and not because I am trying to be nice and not offend my vegetarian dinner companions (like they assume).
I never get offended when people eat meat around me. I figure it's none of my business and I really don't have the energy/give a shit what they eat. Most people who know me don't even realize I don't eat meat. I am 100% anti-evangelical. I just won't go somewhere that doesn't have food for me or I'll eat before.
Besides, everybody would rather come to my house 'cuz I can cook my ass off.
I vote for a meetup at Coach Diesel's house. We can eat her good veggie food, see the livestock in her neighborhood, and comment on the underground economy.
That's a faulty argument to begin with.
Do you expect a vegetarian to first go in knee deep muddy waters in the paddy fields and then prepare his beloved idli/dosa.
Meat-eaters can easily get squeamish on seeing animals slaughtered, the same way as a vegetarian (like me) can get squeamish just by looking at the gobi concoction that my roommate used to cook. :)
Link
SenaX, that's the same study that this post is about :)
Ditto brown_fob
Udit:What im curious to know is how many meat-eaters would be willing to slaughter their dinner themselves?
Hey Udit,
done that..at me grandma's place. The Chicken was easy. The goat with my friends on Bakri-Id, now that needed some getting used to.
Another pet peeve of mine is when people think (often out aloud) that because I'm a vegetarian I try my best to resist the temptation to eat meat. The fact is I'm a vegetarian because I find meat rather disgusting. And yes, I agree with several of the previous posts about the quality of vegetarian food in the US. That's one of the reasons why people here wonder what vegetarians eat. Actually, I have often wondered what American vegetarians ate, since they have very little choice here.
point taken. one can extrapolate this as ensuring everyone understands semiconductor physics before attempting to use an LCD monitor. :-) that being said, i feel an awareness of where food (any food) comes from should be essential to one's education. as an aside, for those who've read mccourt's 'angela's ashes' will recall the passage where the author and his brother come across some critters in an irish meadow and ask their dad about them - 'they're sheep son'. getting back, ... i just think, knowledge of where food comes from leads one to appreciate the delicate relationship humanity has with nature. to tell you the truth, i'm not the evangelical kind either, much like coach above, but just knowing what's under the covers leads to a sensitivity in such matters.
I have another sidebar here from ultrabrown.
People often find it odd that I am vegetarian and work with lab animals. They instantly ask "do you have to kill them?? how could you kill the cute little mice? Do you have to dissect them?!" Well yes. Yes I do. I don't see how that has anything to do with the food I eat. I just don't want to eat meat...the rest of my family eats it, I just have an aversion to it now. But that doesn't stop me from doing my job.
I haven't been vegetarian for long (I stopped eating meat towards the end of college), but I discovered that the availability of good vegetarian food definitely varies depending on where you are. Over here in the San Francisco area, it's fine...but in Texas? Ugh, they seem to think that all vegetarian people eat is salad!
Not sure if this is a wider trend but a lot of people from my extended family who live in Bangalore, gave up meat in their middle ages some for religious reasons and others for health reasons because they were eating it too often. Also, for me, it has a lot to do with the quality of the chicken. Cheaper varieties tend to be a lot softer which turns me off. I had almost given up completely till I found a frozen variety at Costco which tastes really good. A lot of it probably has to do with availability too. I can't eat chicken more than a couple times a week or I end up getting an uneasy feeling in my stomache. Anyone else have that problem?
Mathematically IMPOSSIBLE.
There's no way that India's vegetarian population can be anywhere NEAR 40%. Brahmins are only 55% and the next highest concentration of vegetarians is 28% Even if _EVERY_ non-Brahmin group were considered 28% vegetarian, Brahmins would have to be 45% of the Indian population (solve .55*x + .28*(1-x) = .4). And if non-Brahmins are lower than 28% vegetarian, the Brahmin population of India would be in excess of 45%.
Does no one look at the numbers to see if they make sense??? This is supposed to be an Indian forum, right?
Moreover, I see the percentage of vegetarians only declining based on the usda.gov report stating "Indians are vegetarian by tradition; moreover, many can only afford a vegetarian diet." As many Indians stop being vegetarian out of necessity, we'll see how many actually want to be vegetarian.
Another way to dice the numbers to show how inconsistent the report is:
Even if we pick the lower value of 31% vegetarian (based on the Men and Women %vegetarian = 28 and 34, which jives with the "who don't eat eggs" criterion), Indians who are neither Brahmin nor even upper-caste are at most 15% vegetarian based on the same chart. However, Indians who are neither Brahmin nor even upper-caste are at least 40% of India. That means that the group of Brahmins and other upper-castes are at least 42% vegetarian (solve .4*.15 + .6*x = .31) which means that Brahmins outnumber all other upper-castes (at least 52% of total upper-castes, solve .55*x + .28*(1-x) = .42) -- another absurdity based on that nonsensical hindu.com chart.
THE CHART IS RUBBISH.
SST - the caste section may be rubbish, or it may not be complete.
Where they provide a complete breakdown of groups - for example, Men and Women - the numbers are plausible. I ignored the actual numbers in terms of caste, and just looked at some of the relative information contained therein.
Ennis,
The caste section is definitely the bone of contention. Even if it were more complete, say with the inclusion of non-Dalit non-upper-castes with a %vegetarian that's significantly higher than 15% but bounded by 28%, the math still doesn't work. What would make the math work is to have a much higher %vegetarian among Brahmins and perhaps other upper-castes as well. As someone stated earlier, I suspect 55% is an under-reporting or a mis-interpretation by the reporter. 55% of vegetarians in India being Brahmin makes much more sense, but, alas, that caste-chart isn't a demographic breakdown of vegetarians (since the numbers sum to 121 even while omitting non-Dalit non-upper-castes).
I think it's dangerous to accept the rest of that hindu.com chart while knowing full well how horrendously blundered the caste section is. Even while the non-caste portions of the chart look plausible, the way math was butchered in the caste section casts doubt over quality of the entire chart (which doesn't provide references or describe methodology for collecting statistics).
Al Mujahid for debauchery,
ANNA: You have never dated a Muslim boy or a boy born to Muslim parents? You are missing out on some of the finer things in life!
Have you ever dated a Muslim boy or a boy born to Muslim parents?
Ennis,
P.S. I love the photo of you inside the Chicago Bean.
Have you ever dated a Muslim boy or a boy born to Muslim parents?
I am one!
Mary Moon, she's a vegetarian
(Mary Moon, Mary Moon, Mary Moon)
Mary Moon will outlive all the septaugenarians
(Mary Moon, Mary Moon, Mary Moon)
Oh she loves me so, she hates to be alone
She don't eat meat but she sure like the bone
Al Mujahid for debauchery
I am one!
You're avoiding answering the question.
I don't think so.. It is just that perceptions are changing to match with facts on ground. I'd guess that India had always been a non-vegetarian majority country.. The Hindu article that goes with the charts is link From the article..
I think the Hindu report is probably genuine. Atleast the Tamilnadu numbers of ONLY 8% being vegetarians gels with my observations..
SST --
Re: Caste. Consider that religious Hindus are 43% and non religious Hindus are 28% vegetarian. This also makes the rest of the caste numbers problematic unless there is a missing caste group with high numbers of vegetarians. This might make the math work out. Or it means that the caste section is crocked, but the other numbers might still be fine.
Yeah, I just lurrve it in my there ;)
People often say that many Indians are de facto vegetarian because they can not afford to eat meat/chicken on a regular basis...which is probably true...but can someone explain how Muslims, who on average are even poorer than most non-Muslims, manage to consume meat daily (if not at every single meal)? Even in Pakistan, which overall is not as prosperous as the richest parts of India (for example Punjab in Pakistan is poorer than Punjab in India) people eat so much meat, whereas in even the richest parts of India, it's a few times a week, tops (for non-Muslims). Is it because most Muslims are eating cheaper, lower-grade meat? Or is it that Muslims are willing to spend a bigger % of their income on meat?
Or is it due to cultural factors, that even those in India (non-Muslim) who COULD afford to eat meat daily if they so desired, limit their consumption due to the fact that culturally they are just not attuned to eating it daily?
The Hindu report makes some stupid conclusions, associating location with diet. Many parts of Gujarat are more 'coastal' than parts of West Bengal. Calcutta especially, is "land-locked" and not on the sea. Non-vegetarian dishes in India are sides and not the main course, which continues to made of rice (or other coarse grains), lentils, and vegetables. Despite the world's largest cattle herds, meat on the hoof isn't cheap. And large masses of people will simply not eat beef, whether Hindu or not.
Yes, for example Diwali/Deepavali is one of the few festivals celebrated in our region by many people with a lot of non-veg dishes.. But if it falls on one or the other auspicious days (we have plenty) it will be a no non-veg day.. Many people don't eat meat on Saturdays (and probably on Tuesdays..) Ofcourse when I say meat, it is mostly non-beef by Hindus.. Fish and other seafood/chicken/mutton constitute the non-veg food for a lot of Indians I know..
Have you ever dated a Muslim boy or a boy born to Muslim parents?
I am one!
You're avoiding answering the question.
No, I am not gay.
deshiksa (#2):
I was invited to dinner at the house of the principal of one of the colleges here in Madurai (Tamil Nadu). The only dish that didn't involve meat was the salad. I've known several vegetarians who've come to Tamil Nadu on a relatively long-term basis (1-2 years) who've ended up eating meat just because whenever they went to someone's house for dinner, they found it impossible to find a vegetarian dish - or because Chicken 65 is the best stuff on Earth!
Granted, these families most likely don't eat meat every day, but when they have guests for dinner, mutton and/or chicken are most certainly on the menu (in non-Brahmin households).
several vegetarian foreigners*