December 15, 2006
Desi’s Got Back (updated!)
One upside of my relentless biz travel is airplane time to catch up on reading. Coming back from Hong Kong, I started digging into Niall Ferguson’s controversial Empire - a work previously covered on SM here. I personally find the book fascinating, well written, thoroughly researched and, dare I say, a balanced portrait of the whys, hows, and modern effects of British colonialism - warts, accomplishments, and all.
But, rather than dive into yet another post-colonial-legacy debate, I thought mutineers might be interested in one specific internal difference between the Brits in India vs. elsewhere in the empire - they had a much higher tendency to “go native” -
Until the first decades of the nineteenth century, the British in India had not the slightest notion of trying to Anglicize India and certainly not to Christianize it. On the contrary, it was the British themselves who often took pleasure in being orientalized. [Empire, pg 133]
Later chapters explore how this Prime Directive of sorts would change dramatically - in part leading to and following the Sepoy Mutiny. But, in the mean time, what explains the “orientalized” Brits? Ferguson identifies one culprit - the irresistible allure of our desi sista’s. Many a Brit discovered, apparently, that once you go brown, you stop foolin’ around-
In one of his Home Letters Written from India (mainly dating from the 1830s) Samuel Snead Brown observed that ‘those who have lived with a native woman for any length of time never marry a European… so amusingly playful, so anxious to oblige and please [are they], that a person after being accustomed to their society shrinks from the idea of encountering the whims or yielding to the fancies of an English-woman’ [Empire, pg 134]
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Ghee and Rice didn’t miss her… |
Ahhh the good ole days before that silly suffrage, equality, and womens rights nonsense. When women, like the children they were to care for, were seen but not heard and if they really had something to say, it was pleasant and never shrill. 
(Alas, many an ABCD gal suspect similar motives when a modern brutha heads back to the homeland to get married.)
One [married] Captain Robert Smith made similar remarks in his travelogue but in a more over-the-top way -
The mild expression, so characteristic of this race, the beauty and regularity of the features and the symmetrical form of the head are striking and convey a high idea of the intellectuality of the Asiatic race… This classical elegance of form is not confined to the head alone, the bust is often of the finest proportions of ancient statuary and when seen through the thin veil of flowing muslin as the graceful Hindu female ascends from her morning ablution in the Ganges is a subject well worth the labor of the poet or artist. [pg 134]
Leaving aside the arguably patronizing tone, I couldn’t help but chuckle at what comes next after Smith’s Aphroditian image. While positively ebullient about most physical charms of the desi maiden, Capt Smith saw fit to plant one caveat -
…he felt the typical Indian woman’s lower half was ‘badly formed and ill calculated to harmonize with so beautiful a superstructure.’ He had clearly given the matter a good deal of thought. [pg 134]
Heh… So apparently desi gals were unable to don the stretch pants and miniskirts so fashionable in, uh, Victorian England. Luckily, Capt Smith was there to post warning to the unknowing men back home. As for me personally, Capt Smith can criticize, but I like my women like Flo-Jo.
UPDATE: Normally, as a rule, I try not to post updates to my posts or, for that matter, engage too deeply in the comment threads. As any blogger / commenter with a fulltime “real life” knows, this sport is addictive and the time drain can be enormous. We try to be a little engaged and occasionally, SM Intern will engage to nuke comments that personally attack folks and, if it continues, we ban the commenter altogether….
BUT, scanning the comments (natch, the FURY) generated this time around, I figured I oughta chime in.
Y’all realize that this post is tongue in cheek, right?
Well, at least Manju does. But other folks seem to be taking my quotes of “Sam Snead” and “Captain Smith” as *my approval* of their positions when the whole point was the opposite! I hoped my sarcastic commentary in between their, uh, not-quite-scientific observations was apparent (dissing Women’s Suffrage? Joining Snead in praising women who are “seen but not heard”? “Stretch pants and miniskirts” as essential elements of Victorian fashion? Smith’s “over-the-top”-ness? Heck, I even tried to subtly work in Sir Mixalot - an “authority” who’d rather colorfully disagree with Capt Smith, et. al. about nice “lower halves” and join me in approval of Madhuri Dixit’s “Flo-Jo”-ness)…. (by the way, just now, I was being sarcastic about Mixalot being an authority )
Perhaps my sarcastic tongue could use some practice. Or perhaps you’re just not allowed to quote, in polite company, any sort of colonial and/or female body subject matter without plainly and vociferously denouncing it (Male body parts are a diff matter, of course). If so, that’s unfortunate… it’s just so…. plain.
Still, I offer humble apologies and a convivial drink at the next meetup for those who walked away offended. And now, we return to our regularly scheduled lives…
vinod on December 15, 2006 04:01 PM in · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
In ancient Rome, I believe, women of above average corpulence were cosidered more beautiful. As were men of below average endowment. Vinod, don't let us change the topic :)
the paucity of afore mentioned desi gals in miniskirts where i live makes desi legs in stilletos a sight for sore eyes... they seem to be not as cellulite laden... in my humble opinion the puerto ricanas have it all!
wow, that's not racist at all!
Oh man, I found this book about Robert Clive in a used bookstore here in Chicago called "The Rape of India". It is basically a history of Clive and the colonization of India as though it were told by that "know what I mean?" guy from Monty Python. I have no idea how accurate any of it is, but the whole book is told in a manner barely more "literary" than pornography. It is fucking hilarious.
oh. my. god. becky. just look at her butt!
This bit, I think it was about advanced bathing techniques in Desh really.
wow, that's not racist at all!
Niall Ferguson racist? Oh no! Such a fine gentleman with all these wonderful ideas. Check out his actual proposals on what to do in Iraq in this article entitled Cowboys and Indians" :
Rather, it is time to acknowledge just how thinly stretched American forces in Iraq are and to address the problem: whether by finding new allies (send Condoleezza Rice to New Delhi?);
Borderline racist.
radically expanding the accelerated citizenship program for immigrants who join the army;
Borderline racist.
or lowering the (historically high) educational requirements demanded by military recruiters.
Borderline racist.
William Dalrymple did a pretty thorough job on the late 18thC. to early 19th C. change of Prime Directive in White Mughals.
greek prostitutions would pad their asses.
I assumed the "wow it's not racist" was directed at the colonial commentary and the PR comment (#2)
Well, she's just sticking hers out in a "playful" way.
For a second there, I really wanted to move to Chicago.. because it had funky-sounding bookstores like "The Rape of India".. until I read that line again.
Aakashwaani:
Amazon Ships.
Stay in Iowa.
Vinod,
I understand that some of the posts here are done for fun. But you do have some intellectual inclinations. So in the interest of pure debate, I would like to point you to "Amartya Sen, 'The Argumentative Indian'". I believe this to be a truly balanced book about the way West(britain among other carpetbaggers) has plundered(a lot) and enriched( mainly in the interest of looting further) the Indian subcontinent.
I know this is probably a semi knee jerk reaction, But when some one talks about colonialism being good for anyone, I would have to say People need it like a hole in their head !
-Raj
Well he is right about the lower half. Desi legs are fugly. Ditto for african legs.
East Asian gals consistently have the cutest legs. Followed by europeans.
Methinks thats why the euro colonials adopted leg revealing attire: skirts for women, short pants for men etc. To taunt the natives with their superior calves. :)
I assumed the "wow it's not racist" was directed at the colonial commentary and the PR comment (#2)
Don't you mean Vinod's colonial commentary? I specifically want to avoid upsetting people on this blog, so I chose instead to say obliquely that the *references* may sound somewhat racist to some people.
Let me call into question two assumptions in the post : first, what was Captain Smith's research methodology? To what extent do his "findings" have bearing on the proportions of Indian women today as opposed to, say, cultural "assumptions" about Indian women in the 19th century? To be sure, Niall Ferguson is likely using the Smith reference to reflect the 19th century *British* perception of Indian women. These may well be the right quotations to use in that context, but I would not use these quotations in today's context because, as I mentioned in comment #1, different *cultures* view beauty differently (and it has nothing to do with race itself). For instance, in the Indian context, as Amrita points out, Madhuri's pose may be viewed quite differently than it would in the American context. I could question what possible measurements Captain Smith may have undertaken to arrive at his conclusions, but I wouldn't bother to because he probably didn't have a serious enough methodology to even deserve much analysis. You couldn't say that so easily about the, ummm..., other survey.
Second, I would ask if it is fair to question the motivations of an Indian-American if he chooses to marry a girl from India (in the context of the quote 'so amusingly playful, so anxious to oblige and please [are they]'). From what I have seen, dudes choose to marry educated, highly educated ones at that, Indian girls. Perhaps, we should base the discussion on Enlightenment values, as opposed to values specific to specific cultures (such as greater or less independence and greater or lesser family values), such as the American or the Indian. I would argue that educated Indian girls are just as much a product of Englightment values as American ones. It seems to me that the opinions of Brown are about Indian girls from the 19th century, and not about those that have been through a board of education ;)
This is the most subversive post in the entire history of sepia mutiny. Vinod is a very very clever lad indeed.
You and I clearly live on different planets.
(and, FWIW, before I get my ass handed to me here, lemme just say that desi men - for whatever reason - almost always have a "pre-uncle" belly -- desi gals way 'outperform' dudes here)
You and I clearly live on different planets.
ennis bro, i'm with you. east asian women have the 'fat calf' problem which results in a lot of surgery in japan. african americans (if they aren't obese) often have elegantly shaply legs. the african american male physique when optimized can be appollonian in its classical perfection.
cite:
Dr. Suh In Seock, a surgeon in Seoul, has struggled to find the best way to fix an affliction the Koreans call muu-dari and the Japanese call daikon-ashi: radish-shaped calves.
we gotz a radish lover in the house!
In response to #10 an observation or for that matter a preference does not imply the prejudice or discrimination entailed in racism... i'm an equal opportunity friend :)
I strongly disagree. I think desi "gals" look great in miniskirts ... in fact, I think they should wear them more often. With tall, high-heeled boots.
;-)
I strongly disagree. I think desi "gals" look great in miniskirts ... in fact, I think they should wear them more often. With tall, high-heeled boots.
I haven't seen a whole lot of 'em in mini-skirts, but I gotta agree with that. As regards Madhuri Dixit and so forth, it ain't so much that the Ghee and rice don't miss Ms. Dixit as much as the fact that she wants that look. The gal is totally in control, not the other way round.
What does chet snicker have to say about this topic?
> East Asian gals consistently have the cutest legs.
Well sure if you like short short legs and very often disproportionately
long torsos.
Indians have longer legs and shorter bodies. And if they are like me,
they have long long legs. Oh yes they are thin chicken legs
for sure. But at 40, when everyone else is worried about thunder thighs,
my chicken legs remain, well, slim. Slim and shapely and long. What more can a girl
ask for.
Once I went brown I definitely stuck around, but as they say when I'm out on the corner hustlin' and flowin'...Game recognizes game. Beauty is beauty on any continent whether one prefers pale alebaster skin or a nice dark moca hue. Perhaps the hint of something different, something foreign and slightly exotic is appealing when occupying a foreign land. You get tired of tea and crumpets and want some dhosa and lassi for breakfast.
Although I did confirm something for my brother after he recently bedded a desi girl...and ladies I mean this with all due respect so please don't get offended. I assured him that despite her small but curvy frame, they were probably most definitely real and spectacular.
Holla back!
the chinee women are of shapeley foot and legge, but the hindoo woman is of a fine physique of childbearing. the negress is not a beauty but a sexual beast, nonetheless the female and the male negro are of robust health. for sexuel relations it is best to pursue the chinee.
am i right fellas? i mean am i right? come on guys!
am i right fellas? i mean am i right? come on guys!
Ouch.
Enjoyed the post, Vinod! Glad to know that despite the shortcomings, you're still a fan.
"You get tired of tea and crumpets and want some dhosa and lassi for breakfast."
Kind of ironic when you think of where they got the tea from in the first place.
The comments on this site are in general headed in the direction of discourse more suited for junior high.
Obsessive commenting about the color, looks, asses, breasts etc. etc. of desi females is getting a little tiresome.
I think we desi mens are zimbly trying to make up for our small...confidence.
test
once you go round and brown, you never turn it down.
At the risk of being off-topic, let me just say that I met Niall Ferguson at a conference last monday. He looks very young, even though he must be in his forties. and oh, such airs! even snobs would call him a snob. Heavy oxbridge accent, takes himself way too seriously. Talking to him, you realize where the old stereotype about stuffy Brits comes from.
And talking about women, one of the first slides in his presentation at the conference talked about various commodities pre-1500 AD - Gold, Iron, etc... and fertile women!
:) I think you should qualify that as desi-women got back. I dont think there can ever be a conclusive study to state that our women are low on endowment factor. Our gods are good to us, so we should always be *smiling*.
This comment is weird. A) most desi guys don't think of desi women as "something foreign and exotic" B) we generally don't think about "occupying foreign lands as a means to have sex with desi women, and C) contrary to popular belief I don't think either the BBC or your limited experience can vouch for the sexual characteristics of desi people.
Unless this was just a wild joke. Were you being tongue in cheek?
not to say desi men are not bastards. clearly they are.
Actually, I think the legs factor might also depend on the location. Not too many desis from the desh (even the 1.5 gen) have amazing legs, but OTOH, there seem to be a higher percentage of nice legs among abd's. Usually the rule, at least in my campus, - long legs and smaller torsos especially if one's ancestry is from the north.
Vinod & Amrita,
If you are interested in reading some further analysis of the matter, we recently had an extensive discussion on this very same topic on the British "Pickled Politics" blog here.
Anyone who thinks that Desi women are quiet or retiring should meet the women of my family - on both continents. We referred to my great-grandmother as "the martinet" for her short stature and commanding presence, and her eldest daughter as "the major-general." To say that these women were commanding is mild. Aunty Clytie died ten years ago and I'm still scared of her.
There is a possibility, though, that in my anglicised MangaloreBombayPoone family, women adopted some British behavioural characteristics. I've met many Indian women who are shy and retiring in public, but in the family home, are lionesses in charge of the manor. I'm not sure the stereotype of quiet women holds. . . at least not for Southies.
From what I have read (Jai, correct me if I'm wrong), the tendency to 'go native' was arrested when large numbees of British women started arriving in India during the later stages of the Raj. These women, from Victorian England, put a stop to casual socialising and mixing between desis and brits, and enforced rigid social segregation. Anyway, in my view (and I won't apologise for this even if I get a lot of flak) women are far bigger snobs than men ON AVERAGE...especially women from upper socioeconomic classes in India. This is based on observation, and not because I ever found myself on the receiving end of said snobbery. I wonder if this is a relic of attitudes learned from British women during the Raj, or is it a reflection of something older and deeper within Indian society?
I have to agree with #41 on this: I've got some terrifying aunts myself (from the south -- Tamil Nadu, Kerala -- I mean, good god, the demure-and-retiring desi girl stereotype SO does not fit Kerala women! It's a matriarchal society, people, and it shows!). And this isn't a criticism of said women at all -- I think they rock, and I try to emulate them in many ways. They speak their minds and they get things done, so more power to them.
And #42: you're not going to get flak from *me* for that observation :-) . I don't know if it's for cultural or historical or hormonal reasons that upper-caste women are generally far bigger snobs than their husbands. But I've noticed it myself, again without being the object of the snobbery -- and because of it I'm more comfortable in the company of the men than the women, which is difficult when you're a woman yourself and often expected to hang out with the women and do what they're doing. I'm curious to hear if anyone who agrees might have any theories on why this is so.
Speak for your self buddy !!!!
Sahej
A few points of clarification. I'm white, my wife is desi (ABD Telugu), and my daughter well she's adorable.
I was simply trying to throw out one possible explanation for the British fascination while they were occupying India. Also I want attempting to support my theory that women in all colors from all parts of the world can be smoking hot. One simply has to find them.
I never gave a second thought about my wife being Indian when I initially asked her out. I simply thought she was cool girl with a nice body. The whole skin-religion-what-will-the-kids-look-like dicussions did not come until 3 2 years later. Things just clicked, we got along, dated for two years before telling her parents, yada yada we're married with a kid.
Sahej
The third part was intended as a joke and reference to a Seinfeld episode. With regards to personal experience, I am indeed somewhat limited with only an N = 2.
It's not just colonial men-desi women. My great-great-great grandfather had two wives in colonial India, and one of them was white. It caused a scandal in his Hindu family, but now all parties are quite friendly with each other, the whiteness having washed out, more or less, a generation or two ago. The "real" family was reportedly quite nasty to the "white" family, but he stood up for his half-breed children.
ditto for Marathi women... uh... Westies?
That's right, I disown the North.
Not a big deal Asha's dad. Without the clarification it just seems a little strange. Its all good man, sorry if I rankled you!
That's very interesting, is your family from an aristocratic/feudal background ? I ask because I know there was some interaction between English women & Indian men at that level of society. My interpretation of this is somewhat different from yours though, I think the nastiness has more to do with perceived illegitimacy than racism. It would have been the same situation if this patriarch had a second family with a Hindu of a different caste.
One possible explanation for :
The tall anglo-saxon male - his name was Lancelot - bid a tearful goodbye to Guinevere. Farewell my lovely queen he said, I go on a ship to Indies. Arriving there and seeking to soothe his aching heart(damn!!! why didnt he join the French legion instead), he, tall boned, fair skinned, blue eyed, with blond hair, looking verily like the avatar of Shiva himself (the colors got mixed up somewhere). He consorted playfully and earthily with the tropical, sultry beauties with their damasked waists and black eyes as beautiful as the moon on a dark night, sultry beauties whose skin tone actually had contrasts delightful hiding beneath that Choli. Guinevere became but a dream, and he went native without a murmur.
From - A fresh and new interpretation of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table.
No, definitely not...but most of my recent ancestors were employed by the British in some capacity--as lawyers, civil servants, police officers. They were rather westernized. You may be right about a second wife from a different Hindu caste getting the same treatment, but in South India there is a lot of derision towards Anglo Indians, who were thought of as being in a no-man's land of neither Anglo nor Indian, so I think there was some element of that at work as well.
"Once you go brown, your ass will go right back to black!" Is the responce I gave a black woman who wanted to date an indian guy. Black men are usually really attracted to indian women and now I know that a stead diet of red beans and chaal is the culprit.
I'm not saying it's a fair assessment, but most Southies (I'm one too) are of the opinion that Anglo-Indians hold them in low regard. Perhaps this is a mistaken belief. To clarify, I am not talking about mixed race families post-Independence where it is typically a union of equals
Sahej - No problem, no offense taken. As my man Michael Scott would say "It's all gooouud."
I think I was more white than the horse I rode in on...He-oh! I'll be here all week, be sure to tip your waitress.
Desi (South Asian) girls were always attractive to foreigners. I cannot imagine what is so shocking about the matter that Europeans found them so attractive. The Moghuls found them attractive too. Some of the Moghul Queens were desi girls- aren’t they? If I am not wrong then I can say that sometimes Moghuls and Iranians got jealous of the influence of desi girls and their relatives in the royal court.
At this age, Bollywood actresses are attracting people from all over the world with their beauty and charm. India is a top contender for the Miss World and Miss Universe awards every year now.
Razib,
hence the alternate references to Aphrodite as Callipygos.
I think it's a vicious circle--Anglo-Indians referred to England as "home" and set themselves apart from the rest of the colonized subcontinent, the other locals were resentful so decided to look down on them, thereby setting them apart even more etc. I'm not assigning blame to either side here, just attempting to explain the phenomenon. If the British didn't "go native" in the other colonies, I guess there's no equivalent community elsewhere in the world, but it would be interesting to hear about if there was.
but no mention of his unmentionable, was it greater than the BBC average?
I heart Yeti. And I hate this thread. That is all.
It's just one datapoint, but I seem to recall from Michael Ondaatje's biography that his Burgher parents regarded themselves as Tamil. The progenitor of the Ondaatje family was a Tamil healer brought to Colomobo from India in the 1500s to cure the colonial governor's wife of some illness. He was successful and was "rewarded" with conversion & marriage to a Portugese woman. Are there any Sri Lankans out there who can compare/contrast the Burgher & Anglo-Indian experiences ? Did the Dutch/Portguese/British in Sri Lanka also tend towards assimilation?
My protruding rondure is never unmentionable. Hail the callipygian! :D
Yeah like Shruti, what yeti said
I feel insulted. Neither is my derriere protruding (it is rather flat) and actually looks like a barrier reef. There is an abrupt flattening right around the posterior medulla oblongata and the mid rondurata. I am unable to compete with Ghee and Rice:-) Rondure nice word. Much better than Derriere...
Might the fact that India was as far away as you can get from England(to that point) play a role. It is quiet possible that these British men were not "going native" as much as taking care of their needs. If they wanted to go back to England in order to get laid, they might have had to wait a long... long time. The fact that Millions of them never had the good fortune of going back might be an other factor. Don't get me wrong sista's, but lets not sit here and relish in the idea of indian girls being endowed with a special place in the hearts of the british. The reality might have been as simple as British needing an outlet to express their energy and our ladies back home were happy to oblige.;-)
This thread is actually awesome, because its potentially completely without standard answers on any side. The meeting of East and West, man and woman, brown and white, beige and tan, black and seinna, west and south, and north and east, the flat butted and the roundured.
Totally seriously, this thread should be uncomfortable, but its also really real. Much potential for this thread I see. or not.
The turnip is right; the desi ass is flat. Sahej is even righter, refreshingly leaving the left behind. But Yeti (27) is the star. Cleverly using humour to defend the humourless.
Manju, it was your logic that got to me. I'm now a player for the dark side
But really, is true, it's tiresome to pretend that politics and sex go together. can anyone even count thet number of times people are f-cking the exact opposite person they are ideologically aligned with in every other situation? Thats what gets me about these kinds of issues, and why it'd be nice to have a thread where that's taken in consideration. nobody is really with the "appropriate person" but we all sit here and pretend like there's a way to control who we find sexuelly attractive
No, my friend. You are the star. The war being waged by the Humorless has taken its toll... on all of us. Let's push out the jive... and breathe in the love.
"Welcome to the wacky world of hypocrisy!"
You really believe its hypocrisy? Isn't it hypocrisy to pretend the act of being attracted to someone is politically chosen?
Love is the crooked thing. There is nobody wise enough to find out all that is in it. For he would be thinking of love till the stars had run away and the shadows eaten the moon. Ah, Yeti, brown Yeti, brown Yeti, one cannot begin it too soon.
I can't believe nobody has used the word 'kundi' yet.
KUNDI!!!
I like my men to be small-penised and to have a leg or two cut off in early childhood due to a land mine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attraction_to_disability
Not going to get into this discussion too much, I think people tend to have strong opinions (I certainly do). I didn't say attraction is politically chosen. In this particular quote I meant that if your politics are important to you, and the person you're f***ing contradicts that entirely - for instance, if I'm rabidly anti-gun, and I'm boinking a card-carrying NRA member - yes, there's something hypocritical about it. If I'm a Klansman and my wife is Black, well, there's something hypocritical about both of us quite frankly.
I do believe attraction is far more complicated than just a magnetic force uncontrollably drawing people together. I don't think you can turn attraction on and off, but I do think you can reflect on who you're attracted to and why, because it DOES relate to your own personal psychology and it often has disturbing implications depending on who you are. And some people, once they realize why they're attracted to whoever the f*ck they're attracted to, are happy with it. Some people are dissatisfied with it. It depends on so many things. Principles and politics may be important in these situations.
And I CERTAINLY think you can, to some extent, choose who you pursue in terms of relationships, hook-ups, etcetera.
Obviously. If the only women available were the colored native women, what choice did the white brits have? For this same reason european males mated with african and native american women in the americas. There are far, far more mestizos and mulattoes than there are anglo-indians. The mixed population of South Africa alone probably exceeds the number of anglo-indians.
In the wide open mating culture that the anglosphere is now, desis have by far the lowest rate of dating and intermarriage with whites. What does that say about desi sexual desirability?
Too many desis have this tendency to flatter themselves and wildly exaggerate their status in the world. Who else would preen like peacocks making outrageous claims like: "India Shining"; "India Everywhere"; "India is an IT Superpower"; "The 21st century is the Indian Century" etc, when the glaring facts on the ground are that India (and South Asia in general) is at or very near the bottom of the world in Human Development Indices.
Like Yeti, Shruti and Red Snapper said, I hate this thread
Whatever kind of a body I prefer in a man, I will definitely NOT have anything to do with a man who goes around telling me and other women about what he desires in a woman.
This post is going the exact same way that other post about Miss UK went.
At the risk of pointlessly stating the expremely obvious - Guys, your sexual preferences are your private business, please do us all a favor and keep them to yourselves.
Granted, but its a personal decision and I think people are sometimes attracted to things that they otherwise disavow.
Small penises and amputations notwithstanding
Huh? I didn't get a chance to read all the comments, but I'm seriously surprised by this one! Alot of desi girls legs, that I've noticed, have been quite shapely and slender. I'm guessing it's genetic!
"I personally find the book fascinating, well written, thoroughly researched and, dare I say, a balanced portrait of the whys, hows, and modern effects of British colonialism - warts, accomplishments, and all."
...pull the other one. I had no idea irony ran this subtle on SM
I think that speaks to my point, more or less. You emphasize the "personal" aspect more than the "decision" aspect, perhaps? I'm not saying we need some kind of laws preventing people from being in hypocritical relationships, I think that's fucking horrible. But I do think there is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning and speculating and theorizing about why attraction happens, why people make the decisions they do.
Most people don't like their behavior contradicting their attitudes, so they'll usually change their attitudes to match their behavior. harder to do the other way around. but sometimes i think it's a good thing to do.
oh god, it's a Saturday night and the party's at SM. someone give me a call, we should all go have this argument over drinks.
Jai Singh,
I read Pickled Politics with interest, thanks, and what I'm still saying is all this talk of favorable temperament is more or less bogus, though talk of shape is in my opinion not entirely without merit. Like I said earlier, it's unquestionable, although not mentioned as probable cause in the excerpt that Vinod cited, that advanced ideas about shampoo, such as those Dean Mohamet brought to England, according to Pickled Politics, must have played a strong, if understandably unacknowledged, part in the way Englishmen who were exposed to 18th C Indian women, who doubtless practiced superior methods of bathing, developed a preference for them.
Haha. It is a Saturday night, but, what the hell.....
Thats why I think this topic is potentially one of the more useful to discuss. I honestly can't add much more at this point, but I am curious as to other people's opinions. My contribution is I guess that we don't take off the table the idea that attraction and sexuality are compartmentalized into appropriate and inappropriate arenas. I don't think you are saying that either. But there's also the risk of lapsing into platitudes about solidarity and doing the right thing, which never will get to what really vexes people about these issues. Anyway. Been watching a pretty good movie called Edge of America while writing. Its quite good, about Indians (but the kind who live on the Rez), so its not a total loss of a Saturday.
Much respect for the respectful tone
Amitabh said:
Right, I'm saying, no, once the shampooing technique was out, thanks to Dean M. and others of his ilk, shiploads of now marriageable Victorian womenfolk were shipped to Desh to capture the India-based income of their male compatriots and institute apartheidt. Yes, Amitabh, all full-time consumers of any color are snobs; it's a matter of this being the best method of jockeying for position without working, or at any rate without being economically active.
totally agree w/ comment 66
Either you've never lived in the US or never seen the 'greatest nation on earth' slogans all around.
wow. can't believe more wasn't said about this. In addition, speaking post-colonially, I find it mind-blowing that no one picked up on the comment made by a brit staying in india who found fear in facing the growing feminism in euro women at the time. lastly, i totally and utterly agree with th eindividuals who find the h.s. type disturbing comments about what exactly makes us desi women hot and how we as a race must be genetically more attractive or something. the whole thing smacks of patriarchy
Either you've never lived in the US or never seen the 'greatest nation on earth' slogans all around.
dude, you're insulted, offended even. educate yourself! (*WINK*)
Amitabh,
To the best of my knowledge that was indeed one of the major reasons, although not the only one, as discussed in that link I mentioned earlier. Legislation implemented by the East India Company to prevent "Indianisation" and intermarriage, growing Christian evangelism, the general rise of British imperial power globally, and the development of racist Victorian-era ideas all contributed to the shift in attitudes.
In that book Niall Ferguson defends the British Empire as a force for much that is good. However he conveniently ignores the fact that the supposed beneficiaries of all this goodness constitute the overwhelming proportion of the most impoverished people on the planet. Just look at the sorry per capita incomes and HDI of the non-white members of the British Commonwealth. India, Pakistan , Bangladesh, Nigeria together account for ~1.5 billion people or almost a quarter of humanity. The per capita incomes of all these hopelessly backward states falls below the poverty line as defined by the U.N.
The worst off people on the planet, with very few exceptions such as Singapore, Hongkong etc, are those non-whites who were once colonized by the British.
Doordarshan = Macacaroach?
Bedi's love interest, who is slated to be a Chinese-American woman, has not yet been cast.
Purva Bedi Is Cast as Lead in When Kiran Met Karen
yeti,
one has to separate ideology from personal behaviour. i mean, socrates was knocking off little boys while trying to define the ideal state and "Justice"!!! does that mean I reject all Socrates has to offer because of his personal preference which I dont agree with? I think it is unfair to hurl the epithet hypocrisy at someone just because of inconsistencies in personal ways of life. So, basically, because I am virulently anti-NRA, means I cannot love a person for who they are because their whole upbringing and memories were steeped in shooting ducks (oooooh!!! i so love that dick cheney guy NOT) and I reject them wholly because of that one piece? now, it would be hypocritical, if the person forgot to lynch her husband's black relatives, while merrily lynching all other blacks in town. from there it is but a small step to see that we have one less Klansman in town which makes me very happy indeed. is it really possible to "choose" whom you pursue, almost like a scientific endeavour?
I am beginning to very strongly agree with your original thesis:
Was that a NOT joke in there? I guess Turnip went to the same joke coach that Borat went to...NOT!! Just kidding, I had to throw that one out there.
Who are these chinee women people keep talking about? Do they resemble Chinese women?
Ah yes Yeti, my dear old fruity,
You know, your hypothesis reminded me of a conversation I was having the other day with Umrao Bibi at the local courtesans’ abode.
“Umrao Bibi,” I said, flashing her my most dashing Cary Grantesque smile, “Is it true what they say about the Hindoostanee laydee, that most exotic and alluring of the female species ?”
I noticed her bridle momentarily at my use of the word “exotic”, but she appeared to swallow her indignation and moved on.
“And what exactly do ‘they’ say about us in the hallowed coffee shoppes of Old London Towne ?” she asked, waving an exotically hennaed hand in the air like the Kojakish actor Feroz Khan during one of his frequent philosophical musings.
I spat the remnants of my paan into my bearer’s waiting open palm, and began to twirl one side of my moustache as I spoke. “They say that the exotic Hindoostanee begum provides the best of all worlds: shy and demure in public, like a zebra about to be shot by a good colonial fellow on safari, but wild and unrestrained in the boudoir, like a tigress hungrily devouring its prey in the jungle after a long period of hunting, sniffing and snogging.”
“I will overlook that blatant piece of Orientalist exotificationalizationistic generalisation”, she purred, her eyes flashing with anger like Kali about to sacrifice one of her minions, “because every woman is like a jewel, regardless of where she originates – unique, with her own individual allure and her own distinct qualities and virtues. But in any case, you should know the answer better than anyone, due to your infamous gentlemanly carousings from Bombay to Madras to Calcutta to Lahore.”
I was absolutely mortified.
“Me ? The 25th Earl of Leicestershire ? With my reputation ?”
*smirks and raises one eyebrow*
Tally-ho.....
Bidi,
I think the main onus for responding to this is on desi females, since if desi males are the ones carrying that torch, that smacks of patronizing behavior. I mean that sincerely. Although a certain belief can be registered by a desi male on this topic, if desi women find this line of thinking disturbing, should not they challenge it. Otherwise, its just dudes fighting other dudes, same old thing.
To #100:
Coming from the South, if there was a Klansman married to a black woman, more than likely the Klan will lynch him.
Hindi Chini Behen Behen for China-India Friendship Year 2006, only few days of celebration activities and programs remain!
It might say that desis prefer other desis you racist ignorant prick.
#103 was a response to Doordarshan (#79).
I think that's actually the definition of hypocrisy. Also, Socrates wasn't telling people not to boff little boys, then turning around and doing it himself. I may think Greek culture was problematic because of the pedophilic aspect of it, but I can't necessarily say that his ideas were hypocritical.
I don't think hypocrisy is such a bad word. I think we get really uncomfortable with it because honesty scares us, but I think hypocrisy is part of the human condition and part of the struggle of being alive. Coming to terms with your own contradictions is part of developing some maturity. People shouldn't be so afraid to confront the inconsistencies between their beliefs and their actions.
I respect someone who is, for instance, honest about their racist or oppressive beliefs far more than I do some liberal who pretends to be anti-everything and yet is completely subtly racist, sexist, etcetera. I try to be honest with myself about this shit and it's hard, but it doesn't mean you don't struggle to do so.
I refuse to comment on the topic of this thread, but I couldn't let this question remain a rhetorical one:
Aye, the women must be too stupid to be concerned.
...Sahej, it's a fine line that women walk in defending themselves. There are lots of strong and informed female voices on this blog - even MD, our resident woman Republican, has a strong femmy streak to her. You think it's a random coincidence that women just stop commenting when men start racializing and judging women's bodies down to the nitty gritty?
I acknowledge that it's a different atmosphere when the discussion is lighthearted and funny - or, even if they are serious, men are humble and allow room for women - but on this thread, the male opinions of women's bodies are definitive and in seriousness. Previous threads have ended up sounding just like this one, and you're usually the one to stop and posit the same "Hey guys, where are the women in all this talk of women? Why don't they care?" question. The answer, in my opinion: there's really nothing that women can say about these topics after it becomes apparent that you guys have already made up your minds, and/or don't really care to formulate a decision on women based on what women say.
"Desi women have nice breasts"... "Desi women have flat butts"... "Desi women are sexually undesirable"... I would never want to inhibit anyone from expressing an opinion, but when you put your words like that, what is there for desi women to say? They can object by saying it's not true, but what difference would that make to you if you've already made up your mind? If a woman objects by pointing to her own body, then it's more like pointing out that she is the exception to the general rule that you guys have established, and that doesn't help either party. Lastly, it's bad enough that you guys are having a discussion like this, but it would be even worse if I got indignant and started head-hunting for men - the classical hysterical woman (Antigone, Medea, Kali...) that men LOVE to see women be reduced to, because then they can say, "See, she's fucking crazy".
So, basically, this thread isn't the place for women to speak. What backs them into the corner even more is that no matter what a woman says, there's no good way to come out of a discussion like this without being taken for a) humorless, b) battleaxe or c) humorless battleaxe. Oh yeah, there's also d) clueless and unintentional misogyny apologist and e) asshole colluder. Even if I had said what Yeti said in #27, as brilliantly succinct as it was, it would have been taken for angry feministing - clever, perhaps, but still a battleaxe move. I'm surprised some women are still engaging (really y'all, save your efforts for a more humble and welcoming discussion).
Again, it's different when it's just fun and games, but if you want to be real about it (as it seems y'all are trying to be here) there's really nothing that a woman can say about this shit that hasn't already been said many times on this blog. So if you don't get it, you just don't fucking get it.
Therefore, gentlemen, please resume congratulating each other on your mental masturbation. I suspect that, like me, the other women reading this thread simply laughed at it as soon as they got over the initial indignation.
Peace,
Humorless Battleaxe
P.S. I know there are women who wouldn't agree with me on this, but remember that I don't claim to speak for all women. What I'm saying is just my guess based on how I see things. I'm also not picking on anyone in particular, just speaking about discussions like this in general. Just so you know, I do appreciate that you asked that question... and I almost always enjoy Yeti's logic :)
beshbesh = Razib?
I totally support Shruti's and suma's words.
#107, no way!
Do you think this is why I said what I did? If so, why say this and then write a explanation of what you think? My only point is that, in response to the above, my explanation was, its not for men to comment over-long on this topic, in my opinion. If women or some women, or a woman wants to comment so be it. I personally don't like to hear guys call desi women exotic, or brown sugar, or to wax long on supposed attributes. Nor it is pleasent to hear it said about Asian women, or any other group. But its not on me to respond to it, and that's my only point. If you as a woman do or do not want to respond, that's your call
Except that, this is not just a problem for a blog thread. And my point is thats its not on desi men to be responding to this stuff, because its too wrapped up in cock-fights. And also, on the Miss UK thread, it was women judging down to the nitty gritty too. Desi men just need to take a cue from desi women about how they respond to this stuff. I will say it bothers me and there are times I feel like, why the f won't somebody say something about lame-ass comments. At one point it would make me a little upset to see people just say nothing in response, but I did learn a long time ago a lot of what you are saying above. If you don't think this thread is the right place, that is cool. But, someone did wonder why more people were not responding, and I answered that person. If you read above I did register my feelings, but its not on me to get into some long discussion about it. Any thread can be changed in tone by enough people who want to change it, and with support. Course if you think this thread is silly and not worth it, that's your call again.
No, not necessarily.
To be rhetorical. (Just so we're clear, my comment was not a response to the topic at all. It was an observation on the nature of the comments on threads like this.) My comment was also intended to cover all the bases, just in case someone did think women must be too stupid to be concerned. Replace stupid for apathetic or misinformed or anything that someone could come up with to rationalize why women aren't being more vocal.
You were wondering why more women weren't speaking up, and I was explaining to you that this whole setup makes it pointless for women to respond at all.
Way ahead of you, buddy :)
I'm out - peace.