December 22, 2006
Arthi Meera's Pop Lullabies; and, a question on "fusion"Music
I recently discovered the music of Arthi Meera on Myspace, and even though it’s probably too late to get counted on Siddhartha’s end of the year poll, I think readers might want to go check her out.
Of the songs that are up at Myspace, “Silty Sea” has gotten the most plays — and it’s a lovely song. But “Wander Away” is a catchy and infectious pop melody. Her album is also available via Itunes (I would recommend “In my head” and “It’s not you.”).
Arthi, who plays guitar and sings on all her songs, was raised in Chicago, and lives there now. She says she was trained in classical Hindustani singing, though the songs on her album show no trace of that particular background. Snippets of her voice, singing “Pardesi Jaana Nahin,” are in the closing credits of the film V For Vendetta (listen to BKAB Speechless at Ethan Stoller’s Myspace page; incidentally, Manish mentioned this song months ago). [Correction: that is not Arthi Meera’s voice, I’m told.]
I was a little curious about how she went from ‘A’ to ‘B’, so I sent her an email with some questions. Her reply was pretty thought-provoking.
First, on her own background and musical journey:
As far as my background in Hindustani vocal music, I don’t conflicted from a technical standpoint because the type of music I’m doing now feels entirely different. I learned Hindustani music for about ten years, until my senior year of high school, and picked up guitar my first year of college. I learned guitar by looking up tabs on the Internet of songs by my favorite bands, like the Smiths and the Sundays, and by asking people to teach me things. Soon after, I started writing songs and performing on campus. I think what I loved about guitar and songwriting right away is that it was an entirely personal pursuit. I practiced when I wanted to, played what and how I wanted. With Hindustani music, for years and years, you have to sing what is basically scripted for you, and then only begin to move into improvisation. And even the improvisation is within certain boundaries because of the raga. I love the freedom being able to play and sing what I think sounds good when I write songs.
Hindustani music still strikes a primal chord inside me and I can very emotional listening to it, maybe because it makes me think of my family. But I’ve always been most passionate about bands and indie or alternative rock, which is why guitar-driven songwriting is something I continue to pursue.
And here are her thoughts on why fusion isn’t always a good thing:
I think some South Asian musicians feel pressure to fuse elements of their Eastern and Western backgrounds, and a lot of times I don’t think these always mesh well together. I think it makes a much stronger statement to just play the kind of music I want to play and play it well, without feeling any pressure to artificially combine Hindustani vocals with acoustic guitar, for example. I figure that my background in Hindustani may come out more subtly in the music, and if not, that’s just as well. I don’t feel any less South Asian because of it.
It’s difficult, though, because maybe a South Asian American musician is trying in earnest to figure out how to represent this duality musically and settles on electric guitar with sitar, but that was co-opted by the Beatles 40 years ago, so where do you go from there? (I still love the Beatles!) I remain optimistic that this generation of artists will continue to chip away at a uniquely South Asian American identity that doesn’t rely on anything trite and that may be entirely different from what we see developing as a South Asian American identity right now.
While I do feel that there can be subtle ways to bring together different strands of one’s experience (i.e., Rudresh Mahanthappa), the general point she is making is quite a good one: a lot of young musicians and artists feel a kind of internal pressure to do something fusiony, when they might really be better off following either a purely Indian classical or a western/pop track without overlap. (Admittedly, the possibilities for fusion look a little different if your framework is modern jazz — which has a certain essential formelssness — rather than pop.)
It really depends on one’s constitution as an artist. I often wish Anoushka Shankar — who had the best classical training imaginable — would use less “fusion” too, or at least, less synth. Her attempt to create a “marketable” sound has led, in Rise (and the concerts she did in support of the CD), to something that feels a little diluted at times.
amardeep on December 22, 2006 08:15 AM in Music · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Amardeep, I can use this post as an excuse to plug an artist called Vijay Kishore from Birmingham who I have listened to like crazy this year. I bought his demo EP at one of his gigs and have been playing it over and over -- and he played a live set on a national radio station the other day and mentioned he's on the verge of signing a record deal. I think he's going to be massive and urge you all to check him out --- he's like Jeff Buckly in some ways -- my favourite songs are 'Hold me tight' and 'Freedom' --- his voice is something special!
Red Snapper, be my guest.
And everyone else -- please feel free to mention desi artists you've been listening to!
I've been playing music for 25 years and none of it has been desi related, so I relate strongly to Ms. Meera's comments. I also agree with your criticism of music that attempts to fuse South Asian music with western music. More often that not, it comes off as soul-less New Age nonsense. There are notable exceptions, artists like John McLaughlin and Charles Lloyd's group, Sangam, and some of Anoushka Shankar's work, but these are cases in which the artists have a deep understanding of both genres of music. Most artists throw in an occasional harmonic minor scale and think that's enough to call it "fusion."
As long as we're plugging desi musicians, here's some shameless self-promotion. To the DC-ites out there, we're going to be playing Blues Alley in the spring. I'll keep ya posted.
I like it Sriram!
Thank you much!
I guess TAAQ would be a good case study on this. They do quite a bit of fusion, and even their more western compositions are influenced by desi music. I have listened to them for a long long time, and followed their evolution. I sometimes feel like they are more cut in the mold of carnatic troupes, with their longish "sound check" sessions, their focus on technical mastery of their instruments, and even their style of improvisation.
NPR did a story on them and spent quite a bit of time on their mixed influences.
To amardeep's point, some artists might be better off picking one style or another, but most desi artists just may not be able to help weaving both influences in. When you listen to a lot of both worlds, to actively block one or the other out may end up sounding flat, or worse, contrived.
This is sweet. Much respect for doing what you feel love for and what you feel true to without giving into the pressure of fitting into a genre of music because one happens to be brown.
I liked her sound. Sometimes I feel pressure from people to listen to desi artists just because they are desi artists. No, I don't like Raghav and just because he is Indian doesn't mean I want to listen to Raghav. I hope we can get to a point where we can listen to desi artists cause we like their music, not JUST because they are desi.
Luckily, this is not the case! I am also very pleased with her myspace page, since I find most of them overly cluttered with junk. Hers is as straightforward as her voice.
wow, i think she sounds great. thanks for the post
This is pretty cool. Shoegaze is my favorite balkanized indie-rock sub-genre!
I have to sort of agree with her, for not doing the fusion thing. Sometimes the often artifical coming together of the two different music forms grates on you. So more power to her for doing her thing.
Bravo! I'm glad she's making her music exactly how she wants it to be. Will definitely check it out. The "mainstream" genres belong as much to us as anyone, and we don't need to bring our parents' roots to the table just to play.
Aarthi sounds more convincing in her Western numbers even though I must add that there is very little sense of "baRhat" or growth - as in a process - in her music and even in her singing. As for her training in classical Hindustani music, it is really difficult to imagine that she has trained that long. Even school-level kids here sing better Hindustani stuff than she has.
She sounds great. Is Tendurai the family name?
No, those are not snippets of her voice, and Arthi Meera and Ethan Stoller are lying liars for saying so. Intrigued? Read on!
I first heard "BKAB Speechless" in March, at the suggestion of Manish. After it was all over, I sat stunned for approximately 10 minutes, unable to move or speak. As I slowly came to, I was finally able to articulate the overwhelming sensation that had gripped my body. I bolted upright, shook violently and screamed:
"THAT FUCKING SUCKED!! How the fuck did that end up in a major motion picture?!?! My chihuahua leaves better art in tightly coiled piles on my lawn! WHAT THE FUCK?!?!"
Now, before you defenders of tripe get me to dismount my high horse, hear me out: I've been drumming for 7 years, producing for 6, keyboarding for 2, and have been a pretentious prick since I was a babe in arms, though I plead you to focus more on the former than the latter. I'm not a full-time professional musician, but I'd like to claim my ear is trained enough to recognize poorly programmed electronic music from the good stuff and, by golly, my crap-dar was going off the charts. The tablas are embarassingly off-time, the song lacks any basic structure, the synths sound badly uncompressed, and the vocals are incoherent and dissonant to the scaling of the guitar. In fact, the absurd treatment of the vocals reeked to me of post-colonial exotification, assimilation, exotification, and all that malarkey and could not have possibly been done by someone who understood the meaning of lyrics- surely a native Hindi speaker wouldn't allow her voice to cut up to sound like she had a mixture of Tourette's Syndrome and Parkinson's disease! With all the crap out there floating on the net, I wouldn't blink an eye if I found this on some noob's personal website, but how did this end up in a movie?! With Natalie Portman!!
Look, I've had my music featured in a movie before, (don't bother looking for my name, I'm uncredited) and I know the rigors involved. Even though my film was standard low-budget-indie fare, everyone had a hand in making sure everything sounded right. Sound engineers, producers, and editors listened to every sound and made sure it sounded professional and fit into their vision of the movie. Those who enjoyed the song are certainly entitled to your opinion, but please be aware that any producer worth his weight in ProTools dics would share my sense of amazement in that the song was greenlighted to be in a movie's ending credits. With Natalie Portman.
Now to what I promised- lying. As soon as the cluster headache brought upon by listening to this dreck subsided, I instantly recognized the song's vocals as royalty-free samples from the Deepest India Sound Disc Like any good DJ, I have a copy on my hard disc and quickly found the samples used in the song. Take a listen for yourself:
Deepest India sample 1
Deepest India sample 2
Deepest India sample 3
Maybe I'm wrong, but those a capellas sound exactly like those used in Ethan's steaming musical shitpile. If I'm wrong, I implore someone to please explain how I, someone who has no access to Ethan's master tapes and session recordings, was able to procure the exact a cappellas from the song or, perhaps prove how Arthi was able to sound exactly like the woman from the sample disc. Deepest India was recorded during 1996-7, and Raja Hindustani, the filum featuring "Pardesi Jaana Nahin," was released in 1996. If Arthi, a classically trained Hindi vocalist, wanted to sing in concert with Ethan's music, why would she choose the lyrics of a ten-year-old Bollywood number that was not melodically coherent to the song?
I'm still incredulous that Ethan tried to pass this off as Arthi's voice; scores and scores of producers and musicians have purchased the sound disc and have used the samples in their own music, but I'm not aware of anyone claiming personal credit for it. Arthi Meera should admit she did not sing on that trainwreck of a song and, for her sake, return any royalties she may have claimed off of it. Profitting off of the work of other artists is a quick way to become a pariah in the music business.
I didn't think that before, but I now agree wholeheartedly. Thanks Arthi!!
-DJDP Blogging for Truth!!!!!
PS I realize that no one really cares about this besides me, but hey: I serve society by rocking. And pointing out plagiarism in music.
Yes it's fusion (electronic with traditional) but check out Niyaz. First video is the song Allahi Alla and the second is called The Hunt The singer, Azam Ali, is Persian but grew up in India.
DJ Drrrty Poonjabi,
Hey bud, I respect your opinion--sorry you didn't dig the tune. I'll try harder next time to make one you like.
I must say, though, that neither Arthi nor I ever claimed that she performed the vocals. In fact, in the "BKAB FAQ" which I published on MySpace right after "V for Vendetta" came out I specifically credited Deepest India with the acapellas. What irks me about your rant is that I think I was more forthright about using the sample CD than most producers have been.
And please, please leave Arthi out of this. The fact that she is of Indian descent and that we hooked up is purely coincidental. Anytime the misinformation that she sang "BKAB" has surfaced on the web, we have gone out of our way to debunk it.
This is a great post...I'm also enjoying the comments because I've always wanted to have a sort of cheat sheet about awesome desi music. :)
Ok, I feel the need to point out that neither myself nor Ethan has ever claimed that it is my voice on BKAB. It is a common assumption, because Ethan did produce my solo record and I worked on some of his original material, but I have no connection whatsoever to the song. The fact that I have a background in Hindustani vocals and that Ethan legally used an old Hindi film song for BKAB is purely coincidental.
Thanks Amardeep, she's fantastic. How can you not love a woman who loves Sunny Day Real Estate? And kudos to making the music you wanna make. I'm a fan of tasteful fusion (i.e. not fusion for the sake of fusion, a good example is Prasant Radhakrishnan), but why do something you're not into?
Red, you don't think Vijay sounds a bit Damien Rice-y?
I'm not familiar with Damien Rice, but I'll check him out Camille!
Sure thing, I'll give you some ideas and you keep me posted on what you come up with. Ooh, make me a crunk track in 6/8 with an offtime glockenspiel solo! That sounds good. @=)
I'll believe you, and I'll also put forth that my rhetoric was unneccesarily harsh and apologize for it. I see now that the confusion is rooted more in confusion by bloggers than by deliberate deception on your part. I didn't find any mention of Deepest India on your page, but I did find this. [WORST SONG OR SONG PERFORMANCE IN A FILM OR ITS END CREDIT -BKAB (Ethan Stoller) (V For Vendetta)] Good luck with the tiara. @=)
Whoa bud, I never brought that up or even hinted at that...She's Indian??
Arthi, Ethan: I never stated that the either of you were not talented or bad musicians not worth listening to; I only wanted to demonstrably correct what I perceived to be a blatant prevarication regarding the authenticity of Ethan's recording (and rant a little while I was at it.) I support both of you for following your dreams and wish you the best in your respective careers.
Getting back to the actual topic, I have Arthi's album and I think it's really good. I'm not into a lot of the pop music out there, but these songs have a really strong, personal quality to them. It's great to see her spotlighted here. As for the whole fusion thing, I agree, you shouldn't feel forced by your ethnicity or even your training to mix various traditions or do a particular type of music. Although, it sure is great to be able to draw upon all that combined knowledge/experience.
Dj Drrrty Poonjabi, I'm glad you apologized -- your first coment was way over the top. If you're not digging something, a simple "I didn't like it" should suffice. Your language was unnecessarily harsh and disrespectful.
But yeah, the confusion over whose voice is on that track is my fault. I issued a correction as soon as I heard about it (around 12:00 noon, EST), but it looks like you were brewing up that 12:25 pm rant for longer than 20 minutes, and you missed it.
She has a great voice. Thanks for posting about this!
Yup, that's what I said, ad verbum. It's easy to get carried away when you think you're hot on the trail of a plagiarism case- I'll definitely have to cut out the bhang from my diet from now on.
Not entirely, I wasn't the only one on teh internetz who thought the same before your post today and Manish's post from March still credits her for the "luscious voice." Kudos for the mea culpa though.
Yep, I definitely missed it: it took me almost an hour of mouth-frothing and frantic key-tapping to expectorate that gem. I even secured webspace and uploaded the same files Ethan used to prove my point. As for the post, I thought as a man of letters, you'd appreciate the narrative: I really did react physically to the song. @=)
Anyways, back to your regularly scheduled thread.
While I respect the artists need for freedom in experimenting the tone of criticizing fusion music seems overboard here. Fusion has/is helping in the survival of Indian classical music which was otherwise loosing its audience very rapidly.
Seeking fans, India's classical music experiments
Mr. DJ,
Thanks for the gracious apology. Just for completeness sake, here is the link to my MySpace blog from March 20. I think you and I would make fast friends in real life. I have made some mashups myself.
Cheers.
Oh BTW Arthi, that song "Silty Sea" is awesome I will have to listen to the rest when I get some time. Good luck with your musical career.
Hey Red Snapper, I'm diggin' Vijay Kishore - far more than Damien Rice. If you find yourself liking Damien Rice, you should check out Sean Hayes, particularly his 2003 album Alabama Chicken (yessuh, it's as folky and infused with bluegrass as the title suggests). I think Damien Rice's music is way too polished (deliberate) for the quiet, folky singer/songwriter image he has. Some artists (Madeline Peyroux comes to mind) can pull off genre nostalgia* in a quaint and charming way, but I don't think Damien Rice, with his pseudo-folk, is one of them.
*I don't mean to imply that the good artists who do this are just good at "faking it", but on some of their albums you can tell they're genre-hopping in the spirit of experimentation - which I think is totally cool. But of course, often when an artist is said to be reminiscent of artists from bygone genres or whatever, it's simply a matter of that artist just being him/herself.
Please, call me Drrrty Poonjabi. @=)
I checked them out- good show! What app are you using?
Word to the third. It totally depends on if we can make that crunk track in 6/8 with an offtime glockenspiel solo together though. Seriously, I'm always down for a collaboration.
Oh, c'mon Amardeep. Music should bring out the passion. The colourful DJ may have been wrong, but he was brilliantly wrong.
I have no musical ear but I do know what I like. I am listening to Arthi at work and I think she's got a great voice. It's inspiring that she has followed her dreams and is doing what she loves... so many of us don't! Happy Holidays All!!
Brilliant ---> multi-colored ---> rainbow ---> gay
Wrong ---> incorrect ---> indefensible ---> Republican
Are you calling me a gay Republican? What did Ted Haggard ever do to you? On second though, I don't want to know.
The only problem with FUSION music, is they forgot the CON to put in front of it.
Talk to me when the crystal meth wears off.
I'm glad that DJ and Ethan and Arthi and Amardeep have all made up and made happy, but I'm unable to resist this technical response to DJ.
Dude, that was a tune at the end of _V for Vendetta_. Did you not understand that film? It's about anarchism... a historical concept (look up Guy Fawkes) and possibly one we face in the future. The song was in the tribal format (which is SUPPOSED to be "flawed" by metric assessments) added to techno beats in a casual way. It's SUPPOSED to be the way it is! Can you imagine (just hypothetically) that we all destroyed ourselves and our world, and a few survivors were trying to pick up the pieces of culture that existed before? What would be the music that people much less educated than yourself in music orthodoxy would create?
You should also try going and pysically visiting a rural Indian music festival where they have had no formal instruction in music, no experience with the "correctness" of western or high eastern music dogma, and just see how it feels to sit in the desert (or urban ghetto) and listen to (truly) folk music. The "imperfection" is part of the trip...
Who's Kritic?
I like her music. I've been listening to "Shri" (formerly of Badmarsh and Shri) lately. It's very fusioned and I only like certain songs, but it's worth giving a try. Can be found on Pandora.
McCaca, "Kritic" is a banned commenter. The person talking about him is posting from the same IP he used.
Please disregard any comments from anyone talking about "Kritic."
In response to your question, Aarthi says
. The analogy is a bit odd and, I am afraid, does not quite hold. Aarthi would do well to compare Hindustani classical music with, let us say, Western classical music. And if she must compare her kind of "musical freedom" with any from the sub-continent, she should look at the mendicant Sufi-bhakti bards with an ektaara in their hand from Punjab, Sind and central India or the bauls from Bengal. Vaise, big brother, your posts on music unfortunately do not sound as credible as those on literature. You need to do a lot more introspective homework before giving an opinion on music. Sorry to say this but you are just not there. Hope you'll not take it amiss.www.masumtheband.net - a group of college students.. I think they're nice. check their site out, what do you guys think of them?
As a musician, I cannot express my profound disappointment at the sort of music NIAZ is producing. It wouldn't get a second look in the subcontinent. Masum, though, has promise. Ethan Stoller's music I accessed is much better than the Pardesi number - unbelievably pedestrian - he has put on the web. Aarthi's voice is good - though whatever I heard was digitally monitored if not quite consciously manipulated - but I remain convinced that it has a limited potential. One thing that your training in Hindustani classical music teaches you is to develop in you the ability to creatively engage with 'baRhat' (inspired and spontaneous development of melody) of which, I'm sorry to say, her voice gives little evidence.
Panini - what is wrong with you? Who made you the authority on music? Your psuedointellectual ramblings offend me.
Panini,
I doubt the subcontinent is Niyaz's target audience. And I understood from the above article that Aarti was choosing not to use features from her Hindustani training.
Sorry, that's 'Arthi'
Green Angel - point taken! As for Serena, well I happen to be an authority on music in much the same way as Amardeep is on literature. That's destiny. You can do nothing about it.
And yes, I sincerely apologize if anything I said offended you, Serena. This is the only sort of expression I have. English is not my mother tongue. My expression is bound to be a bit coarse and possibly abrupt. I plead with you to be a bit patient and forgiving. God bless!
It is insufficient merely to assert your credibility. What are your credentials exactly?
Panini,
That's patently obvious.
Agreed. You also claim to be an expert on Indian history compared to the rest of us, yet provide no verifiable, credible sources to support this statement or any of your own assertions, despite challenging others to do the same.
Please explain, for our benefit, exactly what makes you such an scholarly authority on both of the above areas, especially since on this thread you have now sought to dismiss Amardeep's opinions on the subject, as follows:
Try to refrain from launching personal attacks against me or engaging in sneering attempts to bait me when answering the question this time, if you are capable of doing so without resorting to such childish tactics.
[German accent] Papers? [/German accent]
Woah, lets not go there. It certainly is insufficient (not to mention arrogant and pathetic) to merely assert your credibility, but formal credentials are not what truly validate it. All you have to do is walk the walk and people will know you're for real.
Lots of gay republicans on this thread.
Is it just me, or is the repeated use of the term "Hindustani music" and "Hindustani singing", kind of weird? Cuz, when you refer to Hindustani music, what exactly are you referring too? I realize the use of the term Hindustani by Arthi Meera may betray biases her parents exposed her to, and that it really might be a synonym for Indian music. Still, there's a dearth of Indian styles of music, so it just brings me back, what is Hindustani music?
Is it just me, or is the repeated use of the term "Hindustani music" and "Hindustani singing", kind of weird?
It is not at all. The other one is Carnatic Music, and they are distinct.
It is a very formal term. Read here for more info.
Maybe, it is your bias or lack of knowledge.
I stand corrected.
With Hindustani music, for years and years, you have to sing what is basically scripted for you, and then only begin to move into improvisation. And even the improvisation is within certain boundaries because of the raga.
I recently went to a workshop by some well-renowned Carnitic Musicians, which was moderated by one of the Professors here in Music Department @ OSU. During workshop, they distinctly compared with Hindustani Music and some elements of classical Western music in some very fine details. It was really enjoyable as they played music and then discussed the theory of music.
Their opinion and discussions were/ are quite contrary and varied to your assertion above. They covered creativity/ deviation from rules feature in Hindustani, Carnatic, Western very distinctly and had a different ideas than yours. Maybe, they are more experienced than you are, possibly. Just wanted to point that out.
Anyway, keep making music. All the best............
Well, as a matter of fact, I do not have the privilege of initiating a master discourse in which I give opinions on 'fusion' etc. If people here have the right to say they like Aarthi or Niaz or Ethan or praise Amardeep's post - "great post" etc - I would assume that I have a right to make my praise (or lack of it) of what appears here a little complex. Now, it may be trifle delusional of me to think that I have the capacity to make the argument a little more complex but I am not as yet convinced that I have reached that extreme an end of narcissism. I have a right to exist. And I have that right to existence regardless of what my qualifications as a musicologist are for a similar right and much more is enjoyed by a lot many people in this very space. Unless, of course the argument is that I have a right to exist in another continent as this is a protected space. If that is the case, I will go away.
No, I do not think I have the same sort of right to hold onto claims of authority on music as Amardeep has on literature. For, as Allama Iqbal would have said and I quote:
I just got carried away. My apologies! But I do have some grounding in music - insufficient, but it is there!The thing about the limitation of Hindustani classical music was commented upon by Aarthi which I thought was a bit unfair and it wasn't right to let it go unchallenged. I still think she is wrong. I wonder why it should hurt anyone especially when it isn't abusive or racist or gender-insensitive etc. It is just an opinion. If someone disagrees with that one may say so. Where is the offense in that?
No, I am not a student of history. My academic background - not my vocation - is sciences.
this woman is awesome - thanks sm for bringing her to our collective attention. and i like that she doesn't feel the need to inject any fusion nonsense just to pander to... us.
I really fail to understand why between "She's awesome" and "she is good but limited" for her music to me seems to lack in a tangible sense of baRhat - Rabbi Shergill, another guitarist with his own lyrics, is way ahead in this regard - why the former comment should be valorised and the latter panned. Her voice is good - like Indian Ocean's Ashim's grain of voice is good but he is so obviously besura - but her melody tends to become monotonous. Why do we always need to think in terms that throttle discussion and debate. She is a good, competent singer. Isn't that good enough? And if she is awesome to some, then so be it.
Guys it's just music...it's supposed to flow from you the creator. Ignore music theory and presuppositions - what's good, what's bad, what's right, what's wrong that's all irrelevant and subjective; all that matters is that the creator wanted it to be enjoyable and if even one person thinks so then the job is done.
Now as far as Arthi's stuff is concerned - I personally have heard and enjoyed her stuff on myspace before (so her main job is completed). But, what I didn't know were her thoughts on her own compositions; until Amardeep's post.
What I have to say is that it's sad that she feels the need to separate her western and eastern training. It's sad that to create music she feels the need to ignore an inherent part of who she is. Yes - create compositions that are totally western but (and I don't know if I am the only one who thought this) it felt as if she was doing it almost forcefully.
I have done a few compositions and it's almost natural to wanna throw tabla or flute samples into them because it feels natural, it makes it mine, it becomes an expression of who I am. A composition. A bit melodramatic? Maybe, but I think as a person if you have two separate parts of you that have been forced to intertwine then it would be liberating to express them in such a forthcoming manner as music. But hey, ultimately she is the creator of her own music. All power to her and I look forward to hearing what else she has coming up.
"I have done a few compositions and it's almost natural to wanna throw tabla or flute samples into them because it feels natural, it makes it mine, it becomes an expression of who I am. A composition. A bit melodramatic? Maybe, but I think as a person if you have two separate parts of you that have been forced to intertwine then it would be liberating to express them in such a forthcoming manner as music. But hey, ultimately she is the creator of her own music. All power to her and I look forward to hearing what else she has coming up."
i respect what you're saying, but as someone with extensive musical training in both western classical and carnatic music, i would have to strongly disagree with what's quoted above. i learned both side by side, often shuffling from one practice to the other. i have a deep love for both -- perhaps more for carnatic -- but for me, they exist in two separate places in my mind. they represent different facets of my life and different parts of my heart and soul go into playing each type of music. i too have composed a few pieces and i wouldn't say that it's natural to want to throw in tabla samples simply because it's part of my musical makeup. i think perhaps for the sanctity of both types of music, i would not blend the two unless intentionally making "fusion" music. i am a traditionalist, not an experimenter, so this is just my take. obviously arthi has extensive musical tastes and knowledge; i'm not sure why, simply because she has hindustani training, that means she is limiting herself as an artist or as a person. writing and playing music, as you say, is an expression of who you are -- but it doesn't necessarily have to represent all of who you are. perhaps this is just one facet of who arthi is.
and as long as we're talking about things that are limited -- it seems fairly limited to judge a person's entire musical philosophy and potential based on a couple isolated quotes when she is actually a living, breathing, evolving human being who probably has a lot more to say than what's presented in this post.
also to Kush Tandon: i don't know if you yourself have had any training in any type of Indian music but i do not know of a single student here in the US or Indian who did not go through years of intense, repetitive, guru-directed training before moving on to improvisation. i think perhaps you may be misinterpreting what you heard at this workshop -- you heard the master's perspective but not the student's. improvisation is considered an extremely advanced and coveted skill; to the best of my knowledge, it's not even encouraged until the basics are mastered.
you heard the master's perspective but not the student's. improvisation is considered an extremely advanced and coveted skill; to the best of my knowledge, it's not even encouraged until the basics are mastered.
You are correct. That is true, they were masters (they were touring US, and 2 out of 3 were not young either) in Carnatic music and the general discussion they lead was fairly advanced. They never claimed it they spoke for students, and early career musicians.
We all learned a lot from them, and they did and explained some amazing improvisations.
Also, I have also seen Zakir Hussian doing amazing improvisations but then he is also very advanced.
(btw i'm not necessarily endorsing the indian drill-and-kill method of teaching, just pointing out that the more senir and esteemed gurus out there force students to jump through all sorts of technical hoops before moving on to tha big leagues)
This is beginning to become interesting. Acharya Brahaspati, who passed away about 25 years ago in Delhi, was a prodigious 'phiolosopher' of music but was, at the same time, a 'limited' vocalist by any reckoning. The two levels of proficiency could be somewhat disaligned at the best of time. All this talk about the Guru-Shishya tradition is coming here a bit too late in the day. There is an obvious time warp. The feudal institutions where this practice flourished have nearly died a death ordained by the inexorable march of history. The paedagogic modes have changed so drastically that the debate about the expressed anxities of claustrophobia in regard to the classical music - both Hindustani and Carnatic - would not hold any longer. The new space is the space of academies: the ITC Sangeet Academy in Kolkota; the Bhartiya Kala Kendra in Delhi etc. Even the Kalakshetra down south in Chennai is no longer as tradition-bound as it used to be ten years ago. The old Gurus are no longer around. Those who are, no longer teach: names of Vidushi Gangubai Hangal, Pt Bhimsen Joshi come to mind instantly. Vidushi Kishori Amonkar is no longer teaching the way she was taught by the maestros of the Bhendi Bazaar. Pt Jasraj has likewise announced his charter of independence. The new ones are either not scared to experiment or are simply in a state of flight from the space of classicity but without renouncing its creative burden. A Shankar Mahadevan or a Sonu Nigam or a Sukhvinder do not ever forget to carry this baggage wherever they go. Nor, for that matter, do Shreya Ghosal, Sunidhi Chauhan, Mahalaxmi Iyer... This is equally true of urban balladeers like Rabbi, Maushami Bhowmik, Mou etc...
"i think perhaps for the sanctity of both types of music, i would not blend the two unless intentionally making 'fusion' music."
Milli: See this is what I am uncomfortable with. The sanctity and partitions you speak of are man made and I think music should go beyond that. Fusion shouldn't be ANOTHER category it should just flow from what you wish to create. What I was trying to get across was this: yes in learning music partitions and categories SHOULD exist - it becomes an easy way to teach facts if you can break them down into their components however, creation is an entirely different animal. Create from your core not from the boundaries you have been raised in - crossing lines is whats music exciting.
Now what I think would be amazing is to hear someone mix-up hindustani and carnatic schools (forget the west completely) and create an INDIAN classical style. Maybe someone a bit less of a purist than milli but a trained one none the least will be up to the challenge. (And yes I realize this is VERY UNLIKELY to happen - considering most people are trained in one or the other but one can dream - btw if you guys know anyone already doing this - i'd LOVE to hear it.)
"Now what I think would be amazing is to hear someone mix-up hindustani and carnatic schools (forget the west completely) and create an INDIAN classical style."
Argh you're making my ears bleed at the thought!!
;)
For those in the know...are there any raags common to both Hindustani and Carnatic styles? Any raags which are even similar or have the same origins in the two styles? Also, can anyone explain how some miniature paintings are meant to depict raags? Thanks in advance.
ditto to what Amitabh requested and milli: come on girl you know you are curious too ;)
The fusion conversation is so interesting to me. Milli, GauravM, et al., to what extent do folks feel that a "divide" between both musical styles is "natural/unnatural"? Does anyone have specific fusion artists they enjoy and would recommend? What have folks thought of Western-trained artists using instruments or elements from different desi musical traditions?
Also, milli, why wouldn't you blend things together when it felt or sounded "right" to the composer/listener? From a musician's perspective I find this really interesting. I agree that things do not always sync well, but it almost seems like things can be combined much the way different genres can be successfully combined. Is it really just the "purist" element?
Yes, several are the same but not nearly all (they have different names in the two systems).
Ragas are associated with moods, or certain times of day, or certain occasions, or elements, etc.
You opened the discussion of "qualifications" with your assertion of expertise. Those who live by the sword can't complain when asked to die by it.
But I agree with Shruti in comment 52. Sorry for going there everyone :)
As for similar styles or origins, if I'm not mistaken, the Carnatic vocal style of Thillana is borrowed from the Hindustani style of Tarana. Though both are essentially meaningless words or syllables, Taranas have some Persian-sounding words in them.
The first of December, 2006 the prestigious Other Festival in Chennai opened with a performance Fanaa: Ranjha Revisited - which brought together the legends of Vasanthvalli and Heer Ranjha rendered in two distinct styles the Carnatic and Hindustani. The connoisseurs were absolutely ecstatic. The Hindu, the Deccan Chronicle and the New Indian Express raved about this deeply moving and path-breaking musical and choreographic experience. The next day, Kalakshetra, the seat of classicity in Chennai, opened its portals to a first ever rendition of Heer Ranjha to once again an ecstatic response by both the Gurus and Shishyas. Things were moving with a creative charge and cultural boundaries were being redrawn/redefined and apparently nobodys ears bled. The gory images of bleeding ears and perishing by the sword seem somewhat out of place in discussions about creativity and cultural exchange. Conflating the Germans metonymically with nazism is equally and unfortunately in poor taste.
There is a huge amount of similarity as also an equally huge amount of difference between the two modes of singing. Those who have heard Ja tose naahiN bolooN Kanhayia rendered by Lata Mangeshkar would possibly recall that the composition is based on Raga Hamsdhwani. Not only that, the rendition is a near copy of Purandardass kriti: Krishna ni begane baaru which has been popularized by the Leslie-Hariharan duo for the masses. Likewise, the late legendary MS Subbalakshmi and more recently, incredible Aruna Saeeram and Bombay Jayashree have rendered and popularized many of Meeras bhajans and Mahatma Gandhis favorite Narsi Mehtas Vaishnav Jan to tene ri kahiye. AR Rehmans association with both Nusrat Fateh Ali and Sukhwinder is by now well-known and resulted in incredible compositions. Even Harris Jayaraj has followed the same route.
As for the ragas, there are quite a few: Hindolam, Malkauns, Shankarabharanam , Bilawal, Hamsadhwani, Charukeshi, Kalavati, Poorvi Kalyan, Abhogi, Bhairavi The names may at times differ but the melodic structures do not.
The Carnatic beat structures are far more complex than the Hindustani rhythms but even there, there are similar taal structures such as Matya (Matta), Rupaka, Jhampa (Jhap), Eka (Ek) etc.
The Raagmala miniatures, to the best of my knowledge, have no direct co-relation to the Ragas except in reference to the time, season and the frozen idea of rasa invoked.
Holy shit.
As usual, I wander away from SM at exactly the wrong moments. WTF? Arthi and Ethan commenting, heated rants by DJ Drrrty hissownbadself, and then odd inchoate ramblings from someone who clearly thinks very highly of her own opinion of music?
WHY WAS I NOT ALERTED IMMEDIATELY?
I posit the following, Mutineers: some form of alert mechanism so that I (and other meddling busybodies like me) can become aware of developing situations like these in real time. I'm thinking a picture of AJP, hands to her ears a la "The Screamer" or "Home Alone" (take your pick), projected onto low-lying clouds, like the Bat Signal. This would be far more fun than some kind of mundane, "email me when it's heated" type Web 0.20 feature or whatever.
Drrrty, thank you for the Muppets / Papa Kahthe / NIN mashup, by the way. I've forwarded that one far and wide. Mad props. I can't help but bust into giggles at the ending of that one. I won't criticize your rhythmic structures in that one, ok? :-D
What say you?
I'm hearing her stuff on MySpace right now. I am obviously a bit late, but I guess I'll add my two cents here anyway.
She's obviously not bad as some people here seem to be making of her. Her voice is fine for the genre. At the same time, it is clearly not out-of-the-world. Neither do I feel her training in Hindustani classical music (HCM) has any bearing on what I've heard uptil now.
Regardless of how extensive her training has been, I don't think she is obligated to include any HCM or fusion in what she wants to compose (I got the feeling some people were expecting the same of her). I would however, disagree with the fact that HCM does not give freedom to the individual. Unlike jazz, HCM involves disciplined improvization (jazz can tend to get chaotic). Songwriting is not really giving her the "freedom" to break from the rules of a raga - it is simply an escape from the rigor involved, to something that is much much below what HCM is. The two can not be compared, as she has tried doing.
There is not a single person here, including me the one who dissented, who has said she is bad. As for the rest of what you have said, what else have I been saying here. A fact is a fact. She is good, she is competent. But she is not a genius - the "awesome" kind. There is at least one phrase in one of her songs - I forget which - where there is an obvious problem in the way her voice glides. Her views on HCM are error-prone - especially about the "freedom" it allegedly blocks. Having learnt HCM, as claimed by her, for 10 years, there is no way one is going to get rid of that baggage in one's singing. But if she has the the talent and guts to do that, good luck to her.
I shudder to think of the kind of stiff resistance A-J Greimas would have faced in the US of A in propounding his theory of semiotic carre. Here, if you say anything short of "brilliant post", "awesome singing", you are somehow dubbed as "offensive" and "pseudointellectual" and to some sensitive souls you have made them hear "German accent"!
And yes, I have made politely dismissive statements about Amardeep's understanding of music. I genuinely believe he has to do a lot of homework especially in the field of music and cinema before inviting people to respond to his opening master-discourse. Since he has a privileged position, he must also have a requisite degree of accountability.
The album is great. I reccomend it. Also, check out the One AM Radio if you are interested in more desi-indie music. I haven't ever heard hrisikesh hriway's take on being an Indian artist, but his music is brillant and seems to be unfettered by cultural boundary.
Maybe have a look at tabforge - it's a free online guitar bass & drum tab archive could be really useful to find the tablature you need ;)
Froggy.. Checked the tabforge.. but does not seem to be a link..
Does anyone have bass tabs for the Badmarsh and Shri - Signs album
I have seen them 2 years ago in concert here in Istanbul. Wonderful.. Please let me know if anynow knows where I can locate their bass tabs :)