December 30, 2006
Exploitation? What Exploitation?Fashion
Here’s a point-counterpoint exchange on that oldie-but-goodie, the Image of the Community:
“Your definition of ethical or moral may differ from my definition and from everyone else’s for that matter. It does take guts to do what these people have done and they are the new generation and the ideals they have are different from your generation, which luckily is passing on. I do not think by having this calendar out there, it will hurt our reputation as desis…”
“Please, please do not go there. The reason we Indians are held in high regard in America is because we are seen as law-abiding citizens, diligent professionals and model immigrants. Now if we develop and market trashy calendars and magazines, what will our image be in five years? It will be downhill from hereon.”
Those are two commenters on an interview of Saroosh Gull, publisher of DesiClub.com, by Arun Venugopal for the SAJA website. Now the last time we heard from DesiClub.com here at SM, it had to do with Paris Hilton, sorority jokes, and an Indian character called “Poo Poo,” so you can see what direction we’re headed in here.
Gull’s new product on the market is a bikini calendar of “Sexy South Asian Girls of 2007.” It came out last week and there are launch parties taking place in various cities for the next few weeks. (Here’s a sample of the advertising.) Something called Bibi Magazine is also involved, so perhaps we’re meant to understand that the bibi-saabs are giving their blessing, but you might have a different opinion when you see the product. Connoisseurs of the genre will also note the blend of representational approaches taken from white and black girlie pubs, although all the models but one are rather light skinned, surprise surprise. The text seems to follow the standard format with models listing their hobbies (which include “bubble baths,” “wearing stilettos,” “eating cupcakes,” “partying,” and “shopping, shopping and more shopping”) and aspirations (similar).
Anyway, here’s a bit of Arun’s interview with Saroosh Gull:
These women - how did you find them?
We found all of our models by doing a model search on our site, DesiClub.com, and by utilizing our relationships with key players in the South Asian-American scene. It wasn’t easy finding 12 Desi girls who wanted to pose in Bikinis, but we actually found 17, of which only 12 made it to the calendar.
Given that this is a desi calendar, you could’ve dressed your models in, say, salwar kameez. But you chose bikinis instead. Why?
I don’t think anyone wants to see South Asian models in salwar kameez, that’s been killed and killed again by the existing fashion outlets, who do nothing but the same thing over and over again. That was also part of the reason for doing what we did, to showcase South Asian women in a way that they have never been shown before. It puts a whole new perspective on South Asian-Americans being in the mainstream and not repeating the cliched Indian fashion look of saris and salwar kameez - not that there is anything wrong with that but we wanted to project an American look and that is what we accomplished.
Elsewhere, in the project’s press release, Gull says this:
..our main objective in producing this calendar was to showcase the beauty of South Asian women and to project an image to the mainstream market that South Asian women are just as “American,” being beautiful, attractive and capable in the mainstream fashion and modelling world as Latinas, Blacks, Whites and other Asians, if not more so. By advancing with this agenda, we are doing something that has never been done before, which makes this entire project and the impact it will have truly ground breaking.
So he’s actually raising the community’s image. You be the judge. Respectful comments only, please.
siddhartha on December 30, 2006 10:16 AM in Fashion · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Couldnt you have found a way to combine this with the Saddam post?
I just ordered my copy.
I hate to say this, but why do they all look the same?!!
Bibi Mag is Houston based. They do some fashion events around here.
At least they are not going into stereotypical desi professions, like, god forbid, medicine.
That was supposed to be a joke...
Desishiksa, would you like a hug? :)
The possibilities implied in this section of Mr. Gull's press release that had me chuckling for a whole minute; an eyeful of South Asian sistas with jelebis is exactly what is required to make the diasporic Diwalis, Ids et al more, umm, authentic.
I think the most important issue raised by this post is "how does one go about becoming a key player in the South Asian-American scene?"
Some of the girls are good-looking, and I think this calendar (or something like it) was inevitable, but part of me still can't believe 2nd gen desi girls would pose for pictures like that (and that part of me cringes a little). But then, all you have to do is look at bhangra videos from the UK or Canada to realise that quite a few girls from (presumably) conservative and strict families, are nonetheless out there doing what they want (or what is wanted from them) anyway.
I think I'm going to start hanging out on desiclub.com forum message boards from now on. What would the SepiaMutiny calendar look like? A bunch of tasteful, artistic pictures of diaspora ironies and the wistful complexities of our lives.
Forget that, give me naked brown women with Americano accents! Let us in to your Las Vegas soul America! We belong to you! Look, waxed and buffed and spicy too.
Alright, unless you guys dress up in bikinis and release a calendar in response, I'm leaving for good. You will find me on desiclub.com. Under the name london_desi_stud or indian_gangsta_playa.
A calendar? That's small potatoes...what this world needs is a desi Bond girl.
I did kind of get up on the wrong side of bed this morning...Amitabh re #9: if you've seen the song picturisation for "Mama Told Me" from Ek Ajnabee, you'll see it's not a far stretch for something like the DesiClub calendar to come about...
Don't think there's anything wrong with the calendar in itself, though it does serve to exoticize desi women in the US-American context.
I was at Newark airport yesterday and watching CNN on the TV screens, when they had a pretty detailed coverage of the bhangra scene in NYC, mainly featuring DJ Rekha. Didn't get to watch all of it, but wondering if anyone else caught that.
OK a few initial thoughts...
1. Why not, everyone else is doing it may as well get in the game, it WILL make money.
2. All the chicks are from NYC (who cares where they are originally from).
3. What is with the hiding of age with some of the women, as a woman I found that so grating. If I had a body like that why would I be insecure about my age. It seems so trivial to well taking your clothes off and coming out in front of the Indian community. Oh will a future MIL perhaps deem her too old for her son after stating how old she is? **rolling eyes**
And yet again Abhi you don't got game if you are asking that i/o claiming to be one of those "key players" ;-)
Oh Amitabh have you seen some of the videos out of INDIA? They would put a 50 cent video to shame. So whats with the double standard with second generation desis? BTW some of them are many generations removed and some of them were actually born in India.
The guy's a joke to call this 'groundbreaking' for the image of South Asian women. Everyone thinks they're hot already. Now if he'd made a calendar showing a bunch of South Asian ballbuster women, with short bios of their ballbusting, that would have been groundbreaking...
Whatever - those girls all look the same and all look like cookie-cutter porn types. Where the hell do these Gull people get the idea that being desi = saris and salwar kameezes? Have they ever seen an "item number"? Malaika, Mallika Sherawat and Co. would put all these plastic chicks to shame.
Agreed. The gyrations and skimpy outfits in movies these days is much more titillating than some desi women posing in bikinis.
Amitabh, have you seen Dhoom 2? Bipasha's Rio beach scene was almost obscene and had me blusing with the T & A shots while she was doing "yoga" on the beach. Are you cringing because the girls posing are "everyday" girls and not Bollywood heroines?
I'm a little disappointed that this is even is an issue for some people. Because really, if the girls want to pose for the calendar, what's the big deal? There are worse things they could do and obviously there is a market for it.
Exploitation. Community standards. It's always intersting when feminism and conservatism intersect. The traditionalists are right; unless personal freedom is restricted, bikini calanders, porn, single mothers, breakdown of the family, drug abuse, and then crime, are bound to follow.
free to choose
I think the Kingfisher swimsuit model calendar from India is far better. No offense to anyone though.
Holy shit you are right. Wow. Way edgier and sexier without the raunch factor that seems to be in the Desiclub shoots. The location, lighting, makeup, hair, poses and dare I say bodies etc are all far superior as well.
"Co-Publisher, Ojas Vaidya added, "The calendar is for all South Asians, as it has all of the Muslim, Hindu and Sikh holidays noted on it, along with Christmas, Easter and so on. We wanted to make sure that we weren't just putting together some sexy pictures for people to look at, but its actually a pretty good and informative calendar. As you know, its very hard to find a calendar that has all South Asian holidays on it. I, myself am very happy to have something on my wall that shows all the days we, as Desis celebrate."
What a load of bullsh*t, whats he gonna say next, he reads playboy for the articles? This is probably the business to be in right now, he makes money and rides the "controversy" wave a little while until people realize they were duped. The girls in the calendar aren't even all that to begin with.
"..our main objective in producing this calendar was to showcase the beauty of South Asian women and to project an image to the mainstream market that South Asian women are just as American,..."
No offense, but why would you want to be just like everyone else? And why would you want to judge based on standards of beauty that is so obviously skewed?
And I quite agree with ATLDesi--they all look the same!
Questions I wish the interviewer would have asked:
What is the "South Asian-American scene"?
Are Sepia Mutiny types included in it, or is this the scene somewhere else?
Does the "South Asian-American scene" really mean the indian dance parties at the city nightclubs?
Do I have to be a Bhangra DJ or club promoter to be a "key player" in the scene?
Are any of the 2nd gen Indian people featured in the news and on sites like Sepia Mutiny part of the "South Asian-American scene"?
wow.
i think it's "a good thing". The US and A society is ridiculously sexualized and its weird to think people with brown skin won't participate. anyone with issues about this should take it up with the culture at large. otherwise, we participate in our own othering. viva brown sex symbols, men and women and viva chastity!
kingfisher is definitely much better (has the backing of vijay mallya, the best photographers and stylists, a big budget, ability to jet around the world, some of india's top models). but comparing the two is like comparing south asian american beauty pageants to femina miss india. two different levels.
To be honest, the calendar just looks like amateur run of the mill swimsuit calendars. I was actually a little horrified by some of the granny panties, but maybe that's just me.
I can't believe that this is even an issue, especially considering the 'family-entertainment' of Bollywood nowadays, which is increasingly approaching soft-porn...
Well, they even admitted they could only find 17 girls (or women) who were willing to pose for it! (which can't really be true...)
The question is...who is going to buy this calendar? South Asian men...or white guys? I feel like the second market might be a little more exploitative...For example, if my husband (a non-desi) bought this calendar it would be more likely to lead me to wonder why I married him than if he bought just a generic Sports Illustrated type calendar.
Eh yeah me too. Plain white or pastel swimwear...what is up with that? Two prints that are screaming 1992. Most of the pictures look like they were taken in someone's living room and the poses are just borderline porn versus fierce.
hahaa, yeah i think they were going for fierce but it unfortantely comes close to "mai pudth maran lagi"
Knowing Saroosh, I'm just glad he didn't opt for Mr. December.
innnnnneristing idea, would like to know more about it. only second-hand have i seen this bc most people know better than to exoctificatioarily talk when i'm listening. do tell!
btw, objectificatoirly or not, the girl on the Kingfisher web site.....now that is how you wear a belly ring. nee mai marja
innnnnneristing idea, would like to know more about it.
Well, only that wouldn't it be a little creepy if this suddenly became the most popular pin up calendar and a bunch of white guys were salivating over the South Asian hotties.
yeah i agree, but you're not using words like "other" and "objectication" enough for it to be really juicy
desishiksa & sahej:
just curious (about how the ant-exotification crowd thinks), but how would you feel if this suddenly became the most popular pin up calendar and a bunch of black guys
Also, in terms of "integrating South Asian beauty" in the
pornswimwear-fashion industry, it seems you'd want to (ultimately) move towards an integrated model anyway.Anyway, granny panty bikinis are sooooo out.
yeah, thats a pretty fierce ratio of other:non-other words
thanks desishiksa, i get it. could you also eloborate on this:
so if your husband is attracted specifically to desi women, you'd be concerned?
in general i think the ant-exotification crowd is partial to fire ants
don't forget the aunt-exotification crowd.
Camille, what's wrong with people properly coverings their butts with cloths?
Well, not really, because I don't think people should be held accountable for who they are attracted to, but if he had a calendar of all desi women that would imply that he's making an issue of his attraction while being married to one which would then lead me to believe that he is objectifying me rather than just being attracted to me...it's a thin line...and this is just how I feel about it, it's not supposed to be a foolproof argument.
This can be made into a strong statement. A Japanese woman I know of dropped her boyfriend after she found out he was all "into Japanese culture" - food, music, movies, books and hentai. She felt like another item on the menu.The site's music is sooooo retro-gay.
It reminds me of porn movies where you can hear the radio ads, because they use the local station as a soundtrack .
Talking of a community's image, maybe we need a post on the lines of "Ask A Mexican"?
I'm glad to hear women say that!
JOAT was right at # 15
In addition, having been first tipped off to the thriving South Asian *porn* industry by that scene in Monsoon Wedding i'm constantly learning from my utterly shameless male cousins that there are dozens of south asian porn sites on the web, the silliest-sounding has got to be "damaalsex" (or some variation thereof) but we've since adopted "desibaba.com" as a personal moniker for... for... umm, i really can't say here :b
So anyway, my point? The calendar is not really a big deal--either in terms of cultural shock or cultural value.
And no, granny panties are *NOT* out. I see them everywhere these days, and i promise you, they look ridiculously hot.
It's only not hot when the granny panty is on a granny, but that's just me, the Times says different.
those desiclub calender girls look almost white. one even has blond hair.
I'm TOTALLY making becoming a "key player" in the South-Asian/American my new goal in life. You know, once I get a visa and all that.
There is an article in this week's Asian Pcific Post (Vancouver's Asian newspaper) along these lines:
Bikini rebels take on Pakistan
Oh Manju, Manju... you're growing on me, yaar :) I know you're from a generation that was scared shitless and left permanently scarred by feminism because it was taken over by white liberal ballbusters and bull dykes - and what I'm saying is not some bullshit my-generation-is-better-than-their-generation rant (seriously, I don't hold with that "Second Wave vs. Third Wave" shite because it's such a gross oversimplification). Feminism and conservativism are not mutually exclusive. Feminism doesn't inherently exclude anything - not even patriarchy (OH YES I said it, and I can qualify it in ten million ways, masafaka!). Of course, lots of feminists would disagree ;) It's another terminology/meaning/historiography/methodology debate, and, as I'm sure you already know, those things can get really ugly.
I think someone should make one featuring indian guys and called it "their is a hati in my thong" and it will feature--- you get the point. That small condom thing still bothers me!
The reasons this guy gives for making this calender are basically, "we want to make white guys have bonners" which is just dumb. Keep it real and just say "to get laid and paid".
Who is going to buy this calender anyway? It's not going to be in stores and I cant see any reason why someone would buy it. The only place I can see it sell is if it is marketed in India where this calender might pass for "erotic".
Exactly...and I think there is a big difference between that boyfriend and a guy who just happened to be attracted to Japanese women. While there are some who might argue that someone who buys the calendar is just attracted to South Asian women, the act of buying a calendar devoted to an single ethnicity is so much more deliberate than the accident of being attracted to people of a certain physical appearance. (I also feel the need to clarify that my husband has never dated any other Indian women but me. )
I don't give a shit what these people do. As long as the girls - dumb as they seem, or wanted to portray themselves for marketability - really wanted to do exactly what they ended up doing for this calendar, I'm not gonna trip. I just wish the girls in a calendar called "Sexy South Asian Girls of 2007" didn't all look like Latinas and tanned white girls. But vatewer, they're still South Asian - only, the "right" kind ;)
I need to make a "Sexy South Asian Girls" calendar of my own. I vill use real desi vimmen. So I guess my target audience will have to be desi lesbians...
Whenever I hear about women being exploited the implication is that said female is a victim in some way. I'm really on the fence about this issue. On the one hand, I don't see the harm in it, there are tons of more vile ways to debase women and it could be said that the ladies that pose are making a choice and in control and through their feminine wiles they are able to obtain/exploit their own power, blah, blah, blah.
I have two friends that are exotic dancers/models and they both have art degrees (which were pretty useless to them for living off of) so they started to strip. They then could keep being artists and doing residencies and writing grants. One of these women makes and performs work that is very feminist and she has been accused of hypocrisy by other female artists. The other womans' BFA is in dance and she has combined her "job" with her art to create a political burlesque show.
Their work is earnest and funny without all that '90's irony or heavy handed messages. Stripping enables them to be independant and to continue to be working artists/feminists. As my friend 'Sierra' said, 'When I waitressed and bartended I was a treated like a sex object and a servant and worked harder for a lot less money. I feel more powerful now and get paid better. What's wrong with that?'
A lot of women we know have been judgemental about it, claiming it contributes to negative images of women, encourages women to be viewed as objects, doesn't advance the feminist cause, etc. and I think some of that stems from jealousy/insecurity since they talk a lotta shit on the gals that model/strip.
But I do also see their point. When I think of the girls I teach, I don't hope for them to grow up and be strippers or calendar models because I personally feel we have a certain obligation to, not our families per se, but to contribute more meaningfully to the human family or the universe or something. Corny lessons I learned the hard way, I guess. Maybe though, in the process of being an object for a little while, she's enabling herself to further her 'other' career as a student, artist or even being a mom long term.
desishiksa:
I disagree, but I refer you to Yeti for more thorough arguments on that point :) I'll just add: your saying that we shouldn't he held accountable for being attracted to a certain kind of person is like saying we shouldn't be held accountable for acting on our feelings. Of course we're accountable for what we do! Whether it's a good or bad thing is the question.
If you had said "there is a big difference between that boyfriend and a guy who just happened to be attracted to a Japanese women" you would make sense to me. That a guy just happend to be attracted to a Japanese [or a desi or a whatever other kind of] woman means that he's attracted to a woman who happens to be of a certain race or ethnicity. That's totally cool in my book, because it (presumably) means he's attracted to the woman, not her race or ethnicity.
Being exclusively attracted to people from a certain race or ethnicity is a FETISH - and I think that is disgusting. I think it's a bad thing to fetishize people for their race or ethnicity - especially women, given how easily they are already objectified, just for being women. (Of course, if you're exclusively attracted to people from your own race or ethnicity, then you're acting on the narcissist principle... or you have cultural issues).
IME when a person decides to date exclusively within a certain race (whether they choose to date only within their race or not), its because they have certain ideas about what a person of that race should look like and how he or she should act. This can be extremely discomforting if the person of "specified race" doesn't want to have to measure up to someone's preconceived notions of what it means to be a member of "specified race."
I personally avoid men that will only date any single race of women... for a variety of reasons. I especially avoid men who only date black women since I don't act or look like what most people think a black woman should look like.
People want to be loved for who they are... not only because they meet some race qualification.
"I can't believe that this is even an issue, especially considering the 'family-entertainment' of Bollywood nowadays, which is increasingly approaching soft-porn..."
I thought the same thing, but I think it's an expectation thing. Bollywood is expected to be meaningless, fluff and empty. And if there's any socially acceptable forum to push the proverbial "envelope" it would be that one.
But when it comes to print, and calendar print, it could have a much different psychological effect attached to it. Plus, these women are not the superhuman, untouchable Aishwarya Rais and Priyanka Chopras of Bollywood actressland, they are nurses, veternarians, people in the real world with real jobs who chose to bare, not all, but more than one would expect. Should it be a big deal? Probably not, but my guess is the parents of those girls aren't sitting back saying to themselves "Ah Bollywood has approached soft core porn so whats the big deal..."?
No, the guy dating Kurma's Japanese friend has a fetish. You can't help being attracted to people from a certain race or ethnicity if that attraction is based on physical appearance. I will always argue that you CANNOT choose who you are attracted to--it's probably partly hardwired, and partly a result of the context in which you were raised. I'm not claiming that there is nothing political about who you fall in love with/have sex with, but sometimes you really can't help it. It's only a fetish if you intentionally seek out people from a certain ethnicity, surround yourself with the trappings of their culture, and actively avoid relationships with others. If you are, say, a desi woman who time and time again finds herself attracted to 6 foot tall blonde men, I don't see how that is a fetish. And I think you are probably offending a lot of desis who are only attracted to other desis by calling them narcissistic or saying they have cultural issues.
Coach Diesel:
Just to prove I'm feminist friendly, I'd be happy to take your exotic dancer friends out on the town. We can even go Dutch.
Shruti:
I'm your man. Feminist am I. I like a wiiiide variety of women. No fetish for me, though I appreciate a good foot.
Oneup:
Do you make an exception for a man who dates his own race exclusively? BTW, I have a friend who's really specific...he only dates overweight black women with Ivy League degrees. He's got tons of 'em.
And just to add.... all this "it's just a way to relish the female form" bullsh*t is just that. BullSh*t. It's a way to make money, just like everything else that uses female sex appeal to make money.
Camille, we are in agreement on the basic premise, underwear should end below the waistline. I just wanted to say the word "butts". Such a piquant punglish/hinglish word
capitalism at work i suppose. if this is going to make real $$$ it has to be targeting non-browns too (ergo, the white-girl + tan look).
I agree with this. Show me someone who says they will not date fijian women living in Oregon under any circumstances, I'll you can bet your booty that's exactly who they end up with, having mixed Oregonian-Fijian kids and learning how to make coconut milk
Razib;
glad your here. please justify your blonde fetish.
glad your here. please justify your blonde fetish.
no mustaches.
re: attraction, there is some evidence that people are attracted to people who look something like their opposite sex parent. the best test would be the marriage/dating habits of biracial children.
glad your here. please justify your blonde fetish.
no mustaches
Damn.
I guess that leaves me outta the running ;)
Are you implying that I'm overweight?
Anyway, no I don't make any exceptions. I prefer men who are attracted to women... period.
desishiksa, I find your argument on the fetish issue to be self-contradictory (and by "self-contradictory" I'm refering to your argument alone, and nothing about your personal life), but I've alredy said all I had to say about that.
As for this:
Please, the narcissist principle is simply seeing your own looks and experiences in someone else and being attracted to that. What on earth is wrong with finding yourself in someone else and loving it? Narcissism is NOT vanity or conceit, it's just indulging in something related to yourself... like being addicted to Sepia Mutiny :)
And by "cultural issues" I was not pathologizing anyone or anything. I just meant that some people have boundaries (self-imposed or otherwise) because of cultural considerations - most of which I think are totally valid and/or understandable.
Homie, they have mustaches too. You just can't see them because it matches the rest of their skin :)
:D
Coach, have I ever told you how friggin' adorable you are?
Besos!
(Ok, leaving for real now...)
Er, No. I guess you thought I was trying to set you up.
I was trying to show how specific (fetishistic) he is.
Boy, am I steamed about this calendar! There is not one single South Indian girl in the entire calendar. Were they in the "rejects" category? Well, until they include a semi-naked Southie woman in all her tacky, living-room soft porn glory, I will not be satisfied, no sir! Perhaps I should send Saroosh my headshots ... hmmm ...
[Joking aside, I agree with Shruti that the amount of super fair/blonde/light brown women in the magazine is ridiculous. They might as well have called it Miss Ambiguously Brown 2007 Calendar or something.]
. You just can't see them because it matches the rest of their skin :)
that's my point.
the 'mustache zone' is defined by a difference in hair & skin color. so far north and south it disappears.
though there are intergroup variance in hairiness.
my main question is.. what do bikinis have to do with trying to make a point about how beautiful South Asian women are? why can't you do that without the bikinis? it's narrow-minded.
[ref to newly deleted comment erased for clarity. -intern]
When I looked at the calendar, I was surprised they couldn't find any better bodies, but then I read Saroosh's rhetoric and the bodies they chose make perfect sense if you're interested in "mainstreaming Desi beauty" - provide the same package (poses, outfits, hair length, body type) with slight "Desi" flavoring. A calendar aimed mainly or solely at Desi male customers, I would speculate, would use models with (modern, not 70's!) Bollywood body types.
I admire Saroosh's valiant attempt at spin ;)
Ok, I went back and reread the post and found something I had missed the first time - its subtlety being reason #930867957 for why I heart Siddhartha and his writing:
Wait, how'd you know about... oh.
:D
It's really funny that my tongue-in-cheek request last year for the "Sepia Mutiny Swimsuit Edition 2006" has apparently been taken on board, and we now have not one but two links to calendars of various scantily-clad desi ladies. And some of them are even north of the Mason-Dixie Line of SMWorld's perceived standards of politically-correct, "authentically-desi-looking" brownness/darkness. Not only are they South Asians posting in scandalously un-bahu-like poses, but they apparently "don't look South Asian enough" either ! Oh, the horror ! The exotification ! The oppression ! The fetishization !
Anyway, I thought Red Snapper, Sahej and Manju's posts in particular were hilarious. Great stuff, guys :)
Amitabh,
Welcome to the real world, my friend !
Anyway, I can't speak for our cousins over in the US, but I'm sure your frequent visits to the UK must have made you aware that 2nd-Gen Brit desi women going off to various tropical locations on holiday with their girlfriends and posing around on the beach in skimpy bikinis is fairly common. In any case, the comments about UK/Canadian and indeed Indian music videos made some good points.
I will let the more badmaash commenters on SM respond to the second sentence there. I am doing my best to be more well-behaved these days, as you all know.
(Nimisha -- I'm just kidding. I do know what you meant.)
*************************************
On a more serious and totally academic note, I think that the Kingfisher pics were better in all aspects to the DesiClub calendar. Kingfisher's calendars usually are excellent. Er.....according to anecdotes by friends, anyway. I'm far too scandalised by all the rampant exotification, objectification, and chromatofascism going on to be able to appreciate any of it.
Now if you don't mind, I have to do some googling in order to hunt down that clip of Bipasha doing yoga on the beach which someone mentioned above. Shut up, I just want to do a more thorough analysis of that bikini she's almost wearing. Stripes are the new black in 2007, y'know.
hey guys, this is a very good discussion here. I am really supportive of the project and everone here. I just finished posting my comments back to Jaya on the original thread of this post. I am going to paste it here as well. But before I do, just wanna chime in about the "lack of brown" models in the calendar that some of you are talking about. How many of you have actually seen the calendar and have held it in your hands? It is a true depiction of desi women, some are fair, some are dark, some are in between. The calendar is far more realistic than any bollywood movie. So if you want to criticize someone or something for depicting "too fair-skinned" desi women, then let's talk about bollywood and its facade. anyway, here are my comments & enjoy:
Hi again Jaya, I can see that your view point is completely biased and your points of reference are unfounded with this calendar and the models showcased in it. Do you know why? Here is a list of credentials of each of the models who you seem to think are abused, starved and desperate:
Miss January, Kinal Bhatt runs her family business out of Tempe, AZ.
Miss February, Amena Deen is a student at New York's Pace University and is doing Pre-Law.
Miss March, Ami Sheth is a practicing Doctor (Veterinarian) who has taken up modeling full time.
Miss April, Mariyah Moten is a spokesperson for Kohi-Noor Jewels and is a student, studying hotel management in Texas.
Miss May, Lena Jamon is a registered nurse (RN) in New York.
Miss June, Simran Deol is a professional career woman based out of NJ.
Miss July, Soni Kumar is a college student.
Miss August, Anjali Bhimani is an accomplished actress who was in the world famous "Bombay Dreams" and also on HBO's "The Sopranos" and she is currently performing in several plays.
Miss September, Roshni Patel is studying to become a Nurse Anesthetist (C.R.N.A.).
Miss October, Alisha Haque is a financial advisor in New York.
Miss November, Mehak Bagai is a successful entrepreneur in the IT field based out of Texas and NY.
Miss December, Melissa Roy is a student at UCLA.
Based on all of the above facts Jaya, I think you should just give up this argument before you shoot yourself in the foot again.
All of this information is available if you go to the website for the calendar and if you purchase the calendar.
What you are doing is typical of ignorant people, who blindly criticize without giving anything a chance. It is quite embarrassing to read what you are saying, especially since you have not even looked at the actual calendar itself. You are stating everything based on your pre-dated view points and inconsequential, biased conclusions.
In short, before you criticize something, learn more about it. And this goes to the rest of you out there. I have been following this project from when they started shooting for it and the work Saroosh Gull and Ojas Vaidya have done here should be applauded for the courageous effort.
Apologies, that should have said "posing". I have no idea what the lovely ladies of SM are doing while they post on this blog, or whether they are reclining at unusual and possibly salacious angles whilst doing so, or even if they are wearing various combinations of tasteful swimwear at the time.
I have no idea about such things, and for the record I do hope that all our female commenters are currently respectfully dressed in suitably traditional shalwaar-kameezes, with their hair tied into two plaits and a nice neat centre-parting.
I did comment about these folks having real jobs, but let's not get carried away here and legitimize this "project" to more than what it is - capitalizing on the guaranteed existence of male sexual drive. Bonus points for any contraversy that would bubble up around it, instead of lambasting the ignorant and embarrasing comments you should be thanking them for the free publicity.
Applauded for courageous effort? Take it easy, you put a bunch of hot chicks with a very small skin tone variance on a calendar wearing enough to cover their nether regions... The Michigan militia does the same thing, so lets not hold our breath for the nobel prize committee phone call.
OK, looks like a lot of people are amazed at my naivety! I guess it's just that I grew up with 2nd gen girls who would never pose like this. Maybe it's just my own sheltered social background or something. Or maybe it's generational...I'm in my 30s, but these girls are in their 20s, so possibly the dynamic is different. I always thought of 2nd gen American desis as being in two camps somehow...children of educated professionals (fairly conservative), and children of perhaps less educated but even MORE conservative Gujju/Punjabi working-class people. So I wouldn't have necessarily expected either group to pose for a calendar like this. As for the crazy videos/songs/movies coming out of India these days, sometimes they surprise me too...although I've learned to expect anything from those quarters these days. The Kingfisher calendar (THANK YOU Mytake for posting that!) is not surprising because those are well-known models from the upper crust of India, which is known to be pretty liberal and relaxed in these things. Anyone who knows me well knows I have no problem with scantily clad women...and I don't have a problem with this calendar either (even if I had a problem it wouldn't make any difference, right?) It just seemed a little strange to me at first. But I enjoyed getting used to it.
I think Coach Diesel at #60 expresses the ambiguity of these issues very well. Her comment points us toward the economic aspect -- the strategic use that some women have made of "objectification" to, in fact, empower themselves economically (and prehaps in other ways too) down the line. But the reservations in her last paragraph express a kind of queasiness with projects such as this calendar that I think a lot of people share. Queasiness, not objection per se, and certainly not censorship. But queasiness nonetheless.
There are at least two levels here. One is the level of agency. I am all for anyone doing whatever the hell they want, basically, as much as possible. And I'm curious about the economics of the calendar. How much $$$ are the models getting for their participation? How does that compare with the revenue Coach's friends derive from exotic dancing? How much difference is there in degree of control and autonomy between the calendar models and Coach's friends?
The other level is the level of representation. Forget about the individual models and their motivations, etc., consider the calendar as a product, a cultural intervention. What does it say about anything? What messages does it send? Frankly I think the whole debate about what it says about "us" -- as in, desis in America -- as characterized in the exchange that I quoted at the start of the post, is all pretty useless. For reasons many of y'all have clearly put forward in this comment thread. I'm more interested in how it participates in (and thereby intensifies) a generalization of the commodification of young women's bodies underway in recent years.
Nothing says, "Hey, it's Vaikunta Ekadasi" like a girl in high heels pulling off her bikini.
You know what I find so damn interesting about the commodification & women topic is that it is both liberating and binding. It may be obvious but it was a revelation for me.
Classic. Exactly the point I was trying to make when I said this :
"But when it comes to print, and calendar print, it could have a much different psychological effect attached to it."
I think it's more of a binary classification, when speaking in such general terms as "participation in a generalization of the commodification..." it either does or it doesn't. This clearly does. If the makers are so proud that their models are vets, nurses, students, doctors, etc.. why not photograph them in those settings?
To promote their careers elevates the women into the makers fantasy that the South Asian-American woman can play both the good girl and bad girl role simultaneously. So the women are both socially accepted (a concern for the makers given SA's socially conservative values) and have the attitude to don a bikini for all.
Cos vets, students and doctors aren't sexy and don't sell calendars. Nurses on the other hand...
Some of the reactions to this calendar are indicative of something I've been saying for years. Desis in the US and even the UK too are aeons behind their Indian cousins in terms of modernity and, ironically, Westernisation. India keeps moving on, Indians abroad do it much slower. It's very rare for me to say this about anything involving hot women in bikinis, but this whole thing is supremely uninteresting.
Siddhartha, you've hit on one of the points that in my opinion can turn this into a very useful conversation. Coming from the viewpoint of a dude, there's really only a few options when confronted with this topic. One is, to let women know how dudes take these kinds of images. Very few dudes look at these kinds of things as empowering.
If you put things in the converse, I don't think too many guys would go for this kind of empowerment for themselves.
The NYTimes had an op-ed about this very topic this weekend btw. Not from the desi angle, but more generally.
...but maybe that is a generational thing, the generation coming of age now is different in terms of mores and this kind of thing is probably ho-hum for them
i absolutely LOVE how one of the sponsors of this cheap calendar is gotomedschool.com...located in fricking POLAND? huh..
adorable.
Honestly, sometimes I think this conversation is a total over complication of this calendar. There are definitely conversations around exotification, fetishism, agency, empowerment, etc., but ultimately I don't think this calendar's purpose or existence is particularly profound. Also, I think there's a huge assumption about "conservative SA values" that exists much more strongly in the diaspora than in the desh.
To me, this can be turned around, and substitute a guy with money in this situation. If you can't see that turning into a similiar situation then I think its at best a temporary solution. To me the end point should be that people don't make life choices based on compromising their well-being simply because of their outward identity.
A person born female, or male, or black, brown, white, ect should not have to say, well, this compromise I will make and then retroactively see the benefit of because my "background" forces me to make this concession.
In a neutral setting I bet some people who choose to be dancers. The girl from My Name is Earl likes jumping up and down for example. But the rest of the people who do things they would rather not just to get along, that kind of thing seems different
Couldn't you say that you have to pick concrete examples to discuss these issues? I think these kinds of things are rarely presented in scenarios that scream out to you "this must be discussed". Usually its the more mundane compromises we make that pass us by that comprise our day to day lives.
I think out of academia, a lot of people feel powerless to change our society as our day to day existence goes by. Most people even given their faults can identity a few things that suck and should not be going on. Being arrested for driving while black and having to take off your clothes and skip around a stage for ooggling, pathetic men are probably two of them. But how is that going to change if its just noticed in passing? Or should it change? Where do you start that conversation?
And you can take this from a total post-identity angle, and not even consider it a special case that these are desi women. In reality, taken just from the images, a non-desi could not place these people as definatively desi. So I'm totally discounting the angle that these are "desi women". To me thats mostly irrevelent because in reality as desis we don't live in a sealed bubble called "desi-America"
And lastly, I think its a big assumption to make that only women make compromises like this for the money. CREAM was written by some black dudes in NYC and I think we all have had situations come up where this kind of thing happens in some form or another
sorry for the multi-posts
Let's be honest, part of 90s feminism was an embrace of women making decisions that didn't necessarily jive with what some would view as progressive feminism - e.g. becoming highly educated and being a stay at home mom, entering the (broader) sex industry, etc. A lot of it was about choice. For all we know, these women wanted to pose and didn't need the money. I mean, we could hypothesize to kingdom come, but this kind of feedbacks on previous ideas of agency and victimization. I'm not denying that there's "institutional sexism," but that said, I think this calendar is part of a larger picture, not some kind of specialized case just because it has a bunch of ambiguously brown (grandma) bikini-clad women in it.
Women are constantly sounding off on these issues... I wonder what the men here think about the main two option for women: you can be attractive (so long as you meet some euro standard) but dumb, or you can be intelligent but no one will really find you appealing. How many of you have daughters? How many of you plan to someday? How do you plan to merge your personal version of what beauty is with the actual appearance of your future daughters? Especially if they don't meet that standard.
I remember being at the mall with my uncle once when I was still in middle school. He pointed out a woman to me and told me she was a real natural beauty. She was my opposite in nearly every physical category. There was a long *long* period of time after that where I lost a significant amount of self esteem, and it showed.
Anyway... I just think men don't realize how much of an impact they can have on young girls.
I hear you Camille and Oneup. One thing I am getting from this is that women are talking about these issues, but men are not generally.
I think the next wave of feminism, if we can ever get there, will be for men to understand their role in these situations, the part we play.
I totally get you Oneup, that was poignant
It's the Wu Tang Clan, and they're from Staten Island, and the relevance of bringing them up in this discussion is very questionable.
educate me HMF
what are you the hype boy for the Wu Tang Clan? Are you from Staten Island and insulted, offended even?
Amitabh,
The children of conservative desi professionals (or non-professionals) aren't necessarily always conservative themselves. The opposite frequently happens, partly as a reaction to what they regard as over-protective parents and partly as a reaction to the various opportunities given by our liberal Western environment and society once they manage to break out of their over-sheltered upbringing. At least in my experience of NRI Indian families, which in some ways doesn't appear to be that different to yours except for the fact that I'm in a different Western country. Maybe there is some transatlantic difference at work here (although I thought NYC was fairly "wild", including the lives of many 2nd-Gen desis there ?), but I've met plenty of desi doctor's kids who have frequently ended up being doctors themselves and have pretty much been at the extreme end of the behavioural scale in some aspects of their premarital lives (postmarital too, if one believes the rumours), especially some of the young women. I'm talking about family-friends and so on.
I bet you did, mundea ;)
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Very good points by my fellow Brit BongBreaker in post #97 too. Hot desi women flaunting themselves in skimpy clothes ain't exactly "Breaking News" these days. Not that I'm complaining abou