Kinda confused when one of the articles I read state "1500 men" gathered at Gateway . . . turns out it truly was a sausagefest judging from the video.

Man they need to start handing out pepper spray bottles to women so they can atleast fight back. Everytime something like this hits the news there is always mention of 'bystanders' and 'spectators' and people who did not act . . . deplorable.

Of course its not surprising that the usual suspects will come out, blame the west, capitalism, western culture, British imperialism, and outline a plan to 'protect women' by perhaps beating kissing couples or burning Valentine's Days cards.

I was in Vegas a few years back and saw a similair incident on the strip in front of Caesar's Palace. They took off a girl's top and skirt, assuming she was as drunk as they were. After that, we all swore never to ring in the new year's in a public venue for fear of such mob mentality.

That's disgusting, but read the paragraph below in context of Abhi's post from yesterday Are we monkeys riding tigers?

As disgusting as incidents like this one are, it’s just as repulsive when the (men in the) so-called “responsible media” deploy horseshit such as this from (male) so-called experts to explain away actions that are just plain violent, ignorant, criminal and wrong. How is there ever going to be any progress?

Every time something like that happens there is outrage and bad excuses repeated. But no real changes to prevent that from happening again.

That story isn't about Eve-Teasing, it's criminal rape and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. No need for euphemisms in the story headline.

Solution: tasers.

VOMIT.

I wish I could stop hearing about these incidents. I feel that until we do away with cute phrases like "eve-teasing" and call it what it is--sexual harrassment--it is too difficult to make any progress. I myself have had my breasts grabbed in a crowd and, when I tried to smack the person, found the were already gone. Its a horrible feeling, knowing some faceless hand grabbed you like that and there is nothing you can do about it. And its definitely NOT teasing.

It happened with the New York Puerto Rican day parade attacks (2001??) and in Seattle Mardi Gras attacks as well (2001, somebody was beaten to death).

Debates about the reasons for crime are probably as old as crime it self. Sociologists have been fighting about it for decades. It is in our best interest (as a society) to try and figure out why this stuff happens and if possible stop it from happening. It obviously stems from a need for us to protect oursleves from this sort of stuff in the future. What is so "repulsive" about this sort of punditry?

I feel that until we do away with cute phrases like "eve-teasing" and call it what it is--sexual harrassment--it is too difficult to make any progress.

True indeed. I was trying in the title to combine "New Year's Eve" and "eve teasing" but it wasn't happening. Hence, new title for the post.

india is sitting on a volcano of envy and greed. the misery of those who arent part of the boom will be nurtured and exacerbated by those who are riding the boom. it is a vicious cycle, because those who risk easing up on their brutality against the masses must themselves fall beneath the wheels and get crushed to a mass of pink and white ooze. it has been this way for a while and is only going to get worse. you will see a rise in private militia, contract killings and gated communities. you will see vile sex crimes from the rich like you could never imagine - because the lust of the indolent needs to be appeased through new depths of depravity. you will see violent robberies from the poor like you could never imagine - because you can only beat a person only so much until he loses all that defines humanity. you will see pedophilia and you will see elder abuse because the most vulnerable will be the first to get crushed. and while you all take great pride in india - own this up. this is part of you. you feed the beast. i know i do it so cant wash my hands off it - just try to stick my head in snow so i go numb.
mera bharat fucking mahaan indeed.

This is horrid..and sadly, I'm not surprised. I witnessed a similar incident (on a smaller scale) the last time I visted in India as I was passing by on a bus and nothing was being done. And I completely agree, the name 'eve-teasing' must be changed to what it is and people need to get serious.

Man people over there are so damn weak. Seriously, 70 guys trying to rape 1 woman in public and no one does a damn thing!! Indian men seem to have a real hard time resisiting the temptation of touching women.

But since there is a genocide of girls going on in India, soon they will have to fight the temptation of touching each other.

Reading this made me so sick my stomach started to hurt. This is awful, disgusting, and horrible.

Jay:

What is so "repulsive" about this sort of punditry?

If I may offer a solution, I remember a case in Korea or HK where a girl's dog took a dump on the subway and she didn't do anything about it. Everyone on the subway took pictures and she was harassed because (if you've seen the video) she was being an ass about it.
This kind of shit will stop when people in india start using their cellphones and "michael richards" some of these asswipes.
I don't believe in vigilante justice, I certainly dont' advocate putting these people's addresses, but some form of public humiliation wouldn't hurt.

Camille:

"...Sexual experts and psychiatrists, however, don’t think that such behaviour has anything to do with sexual repression and attribute it to scant regard for the law and a growing mob mentality...."
"...Dr Mahinder Watsa, an expert in sexual medicine, feels such incidents are a mixture of indiscipline and a case of things getting out of hand (law, mainly). Added to that is the fact that the society is opening up changes are visible among youngsters from varied socio-economic backgrounds...."
"...In India, I would say the business of deterrence is missing and there is also a collapse of judicial mechanism...."

If I may offer a solution, I remember a case in Korea or HK where a girl's dog took a dump on the subway and she didn't do anything about it. Everyone on the subway took pictures and she was harassed because (if you've seen the video) she was being an ass about it.

I haven't seen a video of Dog Poop Girl, but the picture is priceless.

But seriously, I don't believe that "this kind of shit will stop when people in india start using their cellphones and "michael richards" some of these asswipes." There's no guarantee predators will stop even if they know they're being filmed: check out this winner.

Mob psychology shows that individuals tend to behave in a different manner as part of a group in contrast to acting independently. Members of a group are prone to acting in ways that they would deem immoral or unjust if in control of their behavior. This is not due to change in one's belief or principle, but rather the fact that individuals tend to ignore or avoid one's conscience or rational judgement. It can be said that individuals in a group defer their goals and take upon the identity of the group. Therefore, members of a group are likely to commit acts they would never commit alone. Being in a group allows individuals to defer blame, responsibility, accountability, and/or judgement upon the group.

Righteous indignation and hand-wringing are wasted emotions against incidents like this. People need to direct their ire at lack of crowd control and visible presence of law enforcement to ensure better control of a rowdy crowd of revellers. This is not unique to India, but true of mobs everywhere.

fyi - Faster server to download the IBN video report

DJ, I think that it certainly raises awareness. There are great websites like Hollaback NYC that posts stories of people who are harassed and are encouraged to post pictures of the abuser.

They might not stop, but at least others in the area can keep their guard up.

People need to direct their ire at lack of crowd control and visible presence of law enforcement to ensure better control of a rowdy crowd of revellers.

i believe that folks in any part of the world are no more or less depraved than folks in any other part of the world. similar events happen all over the place. the distinctions lie in societal behavior before, through and after the response.

Before: (this is not to blame the woman here but) at least out here there is sufficient knowledge out here to help women look out for danger signs before situations go out of control. the same goes for streetproofing kids. to the best of my knowledge this doesnt exist in india.

Through: Better law enforcement and mob control practices. In the few mass attended events I have been to, it has been very evident that the police are present and in control. you see these guys in neon green jackets periodically swing through crowds. In one case when things were getting bad I saw how the police persons linked hands and swung through the crowd to cordon off the roughnecks. there was method there. it is a vast improvement over a lone police guy swinging around a cane. any sign of trouble and you can be sure he'll make himself scarce.

After: Out here, such an incident would be followed up by a 'take back the night' event as a show of force. i personally think it is healthy. unfortunately, and this is where the class system shows up - and unfortunately the party girls (who would like to protect their way of life) and the social workers (who have tremendous organizational and bullying skills) are oil and water - i would be very surprised if they joined forces.

i'll leave off the post-incident investigation and miscreant apprehension because i'd prefer ot be realistic. that's a bhang-pipe dream in india.

This is not new. Most of my friends stopped going to Gateway of India about 15 years ago. Same w/ Ganapati Visarjan which happens to be a religious ceremony.

Man people over there are so damn weak. Seriously, 70 guys trying to rape 1 woman in public and no one does a damn thing!!

Indian men seem to have a real hard time resisiting the temptation of touching women.

This is upsetting. I was fondled by a unknown hand at Crawford market in Mumbai in 2004. When I grabbed the hand it turned out to belong to a man who was married with children and who first tried the "What the hell are you doing" approach and when I punched him in the face and people did come to me (my family was with me too) he immediately apologized and tried to make me believe it was a mistake. People kept saying "Madam janedo galti ho gaye." I'm sure the asshole will go do this to another woman who probably won't protest.

This sort of shit happens all the time. I remember an episode of The Amazing Race where the woman had to travel in a Mumbai train and came out crying because she was fondled the entire ride by numerous hands. Unfortunately this is not uncommon in crowds in India.

Having said that...how what? We constantly hear these stories, we feel sick and outraged and obviously everyone agrees it's crap but then what? What happens? The nari andolan women will come out and march. Perhaps Shiv Sena might throw in some muscle and noise. But then what? What are we constructively doing about it? I hate to say it but absolutely not a damn thing. The best solutions people have found to these situations in India is to "avoid" situations that would put the women in danger.

It will take a few generations if not more to steer the 1 billion ton ship in the right direction towards a place where women will be respected.

Poonjabi (love the name):

There was some video where a korean uncle was loudly admonishing a girl and she got harassed for it later for being uncouth towards her elders. May not be the dog poop girl.
I'm not offering a one-all be-all solution. But I do think that with the prevalence of SMS messaging and video circulation in India, if a-holes like the ones in the picture were identified in a similar way to the dog poop girl, then there would be a message sent to said perverts. It won't stop people like Hoyt, but it may act as deterrence.

Personally, I would prefer that kind of citizen policing (not physical violence mind you), where everyone everywhere has the ability to surveill people. The other option is the kind of surveillance they have in Britain and coming soon to your hometown, with a video camera everywhere and no one knows who's watching.

Tangentially, has anyone been following the horrible NOIDA serial killer case that's going on right now? Some middle-aged guy who raped and killed (and had his servant kill) something like 20 kids (mostly children of migrant laborers) over 2 years. Most of the remains were found on his property. What it has in common with this case is the utter apathy of the police...in Mumbai because the victim was a woman, in NOIDA because the victims were the poorest of the poor.

I spent fall semester in India and during our visit to the city of Mysore during Dussera, a similar thing happened to my group. Five of us were surrounded by a group of men then groped and harrassed. I think these explanations by "experts" are the most ridiculous things I've heard. There is no explanation or excuse for this type of behaviour.

I wouldn't say its a generalization to say that many indian men are closeted perverts, or at least suppressed sexually. I liken it to the geek stereotype in america, who clam up around an actual girl. It IS a stereotype, but have you ever been to a comic-con?
Its a generalization again, but you can learn a lot about a culture by watching what they watch, and watching bollywood films and television stations, it is so obvious that actual human sexuality is something that modern indians are afraid of. Somehow it's ok to fetishize it through song and dance and wet sarees and the like. The same can be said in america as well, they have some BS rule about not showing a female having an orgasm on television, but its ok if the guy does.

You can blame it on anything. Blame it on victorian influence from the british. If it's happening most places where men gather, what else would you assume? These guys should be in jail, instead its just the next day's saucy headline. This isn't the first or the 10th or the 50th time? How many times should it happen so we can finally generalize about sexual and gender oppressiveness in India? That's 70 men lecherously groping at ONE girl. I doubt all of them were friends or drunk or "boys".

How to fight

I wouldn't say its a generalization to say that many indian men are closeted perverts

Here comes the garbage. Look up what the word "generalization" means.

I rode public transportation on a daily basis when I lived in Hyderabad, and had various parts of my anatomy subjected to random frotteurism on a daily basis. I rode public transportation on a daily basis when I lived in Boston, and this happened to me maybe once in the 2 years I lived there. I would NEVER say that Indian men are closeted perverts, but I think it's considered to be something you can get away with. In America, I guess men have bars and dance clubs where they get to inappropriately grab women, so they leave them more or less alone on public transportation. I would say the verbal harassment in East Coast cities is on a par with India. What happened to this woman is a horrible extreme case and I think could have happened anywhere, not just in Bombay, and is nowhere near the same as being groped by one sick guy on a bus.

I would NEVER say that Indian men are closeted perverts, but I think it's considered to be something you can get away with.

I agree, there is absolutely no justice. If there was a little more law and order, then folks would think twice.

Or, like my suggestion, if women carried mace/pepper spray (better yet, a gun) folks would think twice.

But to suggest that "many" Indian men are closet perverts is such a loaded piece of bullshirt. Anangbhai can get away with be by a) being a desi when it would not be tolerated if remarked about any other racial/ethnic group and b) he used the somewhat ambiguous quantifier "many" so that when he is called out he can tell us that's not what he meant to say.

Ya, I think that desi men are only as perverted as the next guy, and I'm sure men everywhere have outlets for their perversion that, if not sanctioned, are somewhat tolerated.
I think pepper spray is a great idea, except, according to the Cambridge, Mass. Police department a few years ago, it doesn't work on people from groups that eat a lot of spicy food. :)

I used an umbrella to poke people who got to close...it seemed to work.

Also, is this really a 'South Asian headline?' Not something I particularly hear about ever happening in Sri Lanka or Nepal or Pakistan (though they have different problems). Seems uniquely Indian, possbily seen in some East Asian type countries.

Not something I particularly hear about ever happening in Sri Lanka or Nepal or Pakistan (though they have different problems).

They pour acid on women's faces in Bangladesh, and in Pakistan, they just disappear. The reason you do not hear much (of news like above) is women do not share space with unrelated men in public that often.

All Others,

The video is really sad, disturbing, and most of all made me very angry. I do not think Indian men are any more perverted than any one else. However, there is a strong "repressed" sexuality in desh unless you are a folky from St. Stephen's College or JNU.

A simple solution is effective, strict law enforcement. No chalta hai.

hairy_d has a point, this and similar mess will increase with gluttony for greed and envy.

In India, Women Fight Harassment of "Eve Teasing"

On the streets of this booming Indian city(Bangalore), Laura Neuhaus says she is constantly on guard against men who brush against her body.
...

To help stop the practice, the 23-year-old technology executive from the United States joined Blank Noise -- a group that fights "Eve teasing," a euphemism in India for the sexual harassment or molestation of women. link

'Eve-Teasing' Makes India's Streets Mean for Women

Back in India after 10 years, Kavitha Rao faces the affronts and fears of "eve teasing," the innocuous-sounding term for street harassment. Those who fight back occasionally suffer violent reprisals, but some activists are braving the risks.

...

Most harassers back down when confronted, but there's always the exception. This past February, a 52-year-old woman in the northern Indian town of Lucknow was shot dead for protesting against the harassment of her daughter-in-law. Every so often there are reports of harassers throwing acid at their victims. At the very least, I worry about the harasser stalking me or returning with a group of his friends. link

A simple solution is effective, strict law enforcement

I think this is a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time without the right equipment. Ask a seasoned Mumbaikar before you venture out feeling all "festive".
I say she should have just hung out at Monte's and had a beer.
By the way the safest I've felt was during the Tazia processions in Mumbai (especially in and around Minara Masjid and Md Ali Rd). The reason being that the stakes were even , even with knives and all.
When your friends ask you to help with distribution of Falooda and water during Muharram, you know you're the king!! Mess with me now Pappu!

I've been grabbed on a non-crowded pavement in a very posh part of Delhi too, so I'd say the crowds offer opportunity and license but the mentality is what is most important - I was grabbed by one of a group of passing schoolboys, and when I held on to one of them (hostage) till he got his runaway "friend" back, their passing (female!) teacher said "rehne do, kya baat hai, ladke hain"...the cop I called was singularly uninterested in helping, and ran off. Men will do this sort of thing in many places given the opportunity, and holding them accountable is the only thing that can change this, but when law enforcement authorities, elders and so on refuse to recognize these crimes as crimes, what do you expect? Sorry, it IS a desi culture problem, even if other cultures have similar issues (there was a very similar occurrence that shocked everyone in Cairo, where I live, recently, during Eid ul-Fitr).

The culprits have been caught as per latest news. Hope they get the dereved punishment!

"...Sexual experts and psychiatrists, however, don’t think that such behaviour has anything to do with sexual repression and attribute it to scant regard for the law and a growing mob mentality...." "...Dr Mahinder Watsa, an expert in sexual medicine, feels such incidents are a mixture of indiscipline and a case of things getting out of hand (law, mainly). Added to that is the fact that the society is opening up changes are visible among youngsters from varied socio-economic backgrounds...." "...In India, I would say the business of deterrence is missing and there is also a collapse of judicial mechanism...."

All of the above are quotes from the TOI article cited. Interesting syntax aside, what do you find objectionable?

Um, all of it is semantically null? Analysis can be used to address the problem, but here it is being used to pretend to address the problem until people's attention fades.

Indian men seem to have a real hard time resisiting the temptation of touching women.

If this statement were uttered by a nondesi, he/she would be flamed. Why do we have to put up w/ this? A friend of mine had an unfortunate experience at Pamplona festival in Spain. Let's not make sweeping generalizations please.

This generalization (as opposed to "all Indian men are sexually repressed" or "Indian men are perverts") seems to be warranted. As other female commenters have noted, it is a qualitatively different experience, on a day-to-day basis, going around in public in India versus in the US (can't speak for Spain).

surrounded by a mob of around 60 to 70 people.

God Almighty. What an absolute bunch of spineless cowards, for not stopping what was happening and (even worse) for actually participating in the attack. Something really is rotten in the state of Denmark Delhi/India.

I agree with Kush T and Hairy_D's points above too.

Deepa,

Read the sentences again. Find out what "the business of deterrence is missing" means, or "the scant regard for the law" or "mixture of indiscipline and a case of things getting out of hand (law, mainly)" or "collapse of judicial mechanism" mean.

It is a law and order problem, people are not afraid of getting caught, they are used to behaving like shits and getting away with it, the courts don't work. Do you see a suggested solution in those answers? What more do you want these talking heads to say anyway?

"This generalization....seems to be warranted"

SnarkOn: Seriously, take a deep breath and stop thinking like a chick. Think like a real person. /SnarkOff
Is that warranted?

Sheesh!

Jay"Grabby"V

This incident is really said, the explanations are equally outrageous. One thing that we shouldn’t forget is that such incidents are not isolated to India but happen most everywhere there are uncontrolled mobs. Sweeping generalizations about any one and their sexuality doesn’t do the discussion any good. Most all women who travel in Bombay locals on a regular basis know how the handle such people, that is precisely why Bombay is one of the safest cities for women in India.
I will not even begin to comment on what goes on in Delhi where a friend was groped in her car, a girl with two male companions was kidnapped at gun point in Vasant Vihar and a foreign tourist was kidnapped and raped in south Delhi.
The problem in my opinion is too many people and two few able law enforcers, many people with chalta hai attitude, as long as that doesn’t change incidents like these may not go away.

Typical backward Indian behavior...you would think by now Indians would stop blaming the West for their entrenched societal and gender imbalances...many of the so-called Indian values are hypocritical at worst.

A single lathi strike from a policeman would have been enough to scatter the crowd. My bullshitting withstanding, more cops isn't the solution. They've already confiscated the pictures from the photographer, and I'm sure they're looking at them over and over and over to "solve" this heinous crime.

I still think public humiliation would be effective for this solution. A garland of chappals and being paraded around wearing blackface isn't enough.

I apologize if my comment above somehow comes across as defensive of the city or the incident. Having lived in Bombay, Delhi and other parts of the world was trying to bring a different point of view to some of the other comments.
Neel, I understand your rage but no one here is trying to imply that the west is to blame for India's societal woes. I feel if we keep to the issue at hand the discussion can be constructive.

Anang,

I am not sure if you are referring to my comment above, I didn’t suggest more cops, I suggested more able cops. India has plenty of cops but if you have had any experience in dealing with the police in India, you would know how able they are.

The reason you do not hear much (of news like above) is women do not share space with unrelated men in public that often.

Good point.

I still think public humiliation would be effective for this solution. A garland of chappals and being paraded around wearing blackface isn't enough.

How about some plain ol' imprisonement instead of parading people in blackface and public humiliation. Next you would be advocating for castration.

This actually is in some ways similar to the insanity which took place at Central Park a few years back though the number of victims there was close to 50.

Just an FYI...Dr. Mahinder Watsa writes the mostly offensive, often medically incorrect, and strange yet funny "Ask the Sexpert" column in the Mumbai Mirror's "You" section. I wouldn't really give much credence to his words regarding this incident and how it reflects on Indian men.

I do think that there is a scary aspect (for a woman) of being anonymous in a crowd where that is happening. Strangely, I have also heard of times where people will kick the crap out of the person that is harassing someone else. I wonder what makes people turn on that switch (to act) versus turn it off. (I'm thinking of the guy in NYC that saved a fellow commuter from being run over in the subway).

This whole thing was really sad and it reminded me when two women were stabbed by a crazy person at the gateway and a similar audience just watched. Only one person helped as others watched one woman lie in a pool of her own blood while the other ran around asking people to help them. They showed photographers taking their photos too.

I'm a little tired of hearing "this happens everywhere" arguments everytime shit like this happens. Yeah it happened at the Puerto Rican Day parade a few years ago and was a disgrace to this city and everyone was outraged about it. It is not average behavior on a normal day. Nearly 50 women were groped stripped etc and nearly 20 men were arrested as well.

The point is the tendency to always bring up other similar problems in other cultures/countries to somehow counter argue these incidences in India. It's not some kind of competetion. Can we please refrain? As a woman nothing is more disgusting than to have someone tell me, well you got groped in India, a woman is raped X number of times in the United States. WTF what does it have to do with the price of oil in China???

Sexuality is a taboo, not just repressed but there is no outlet for the male youth in India and repression (without consequences and culture/law forcing you) this kind of behavior is bound to happen. We need to call it what it is? I hate the 80 different strokes of political correctness that needs to be painted before one qualifies to have an opinion about this. Other countries where similar sexual conservatism exists strict laws and dire consequences keeps people in line.

When a policeman or even the community at large like what SP said above doesn't think it's a problem how will the problem be ever fixed?

I'm a little tired of hearing "this happens everywhere" arguments everytime shit like this happens.

Jane: I didnt reference the Central Park incident to make any sort of an argument. There really is no argument though I do appreciate your point about citing to similar incidents which have happened around the globe might have the inadvertent result of mitigating the primal shock/outrage which we all feel when such an incident takes place.
Thank you for raising my consciousness.

Jane: I didnt reference the Central Park incident to make any sort of an argument.

Sorry AMFD that comment wasn't referencing you, I actually agreed with your POV. It was regarding comments made earlier.

JOAT,

Agreed with your larger point, the issue is not competition, it derision. Any time a news like this come out of India, sweeping generalizations are quick to follow, Trollish comments like those steer the discussions away from the main point of the posts and it becomes a bitchfest of 400+ comments.

I observed groping and touching women couple of times while traveling on a bus in Hyderabad. Once a guy in 40's was constantly touching a girl of his daughters age, he looked like a government official or something like that. After looking at the girls eyes, I wanted to slap that guy.

I came across this blog some time back. It has some amazing but sad stories.

I dunno, JoAT. I agree that when other national examples are brought up to minimize the magnitude of the crime, it's a bad thing. But I have a feeling most of these other examples are being brought up to counter ideas like this:

I wouldn't say its a generalization to say that many indian men are closeted perverts, or at least suppressed sexually.

I mean come on. The question this story raises is: how can we stop the abuse of women in crowd situations. Pretending it's ONLY a problem of India, or of sexual repression isn't going to lead to a real solution (any more than the ranting about globalization or "natural" male behavior quoted in the original post). When people start pretending this is only an Indian issue, it's natural to point out the many examples of this deplorable behavior even in sexually liberated countries.

Ultimately, we're talking about mob violence, and mob violence CAN be controlled by effective crowd control techniques and policing. That's where we should be looking. What broke down here? Did the police choose not to respond or were they not informed? Diving into generalizations about Indian men all being latent sexual perverts isn't going to solve anything.

Trollish comments like those steer the discussions away from the main point of the posts and it becomes a bitchfest of 400+ comments.

I agree wtih you. Over the years I myself have indulged in the bitchfest about these incidences and that goes back to my original reponse to the post...what gets resolved? What can we at large as society do about this problem? What are the true viable options that we can explore that understand culture and all things considered to address these incidences? What can I(we) do to help? Outrage needs to be turned into something substantial. Does anyone know of any grassroots level change that anyone is doing in India about this constantly nagging issue?

Ultimately, we're talking about mob violence, and mob violence CAN be controlled by effective crowd control techniques and policing. That's where we should be looking.

I'm sorry I disagree with you. This just happened to be a mob this time. This happens everyday in India in various capacities where men harrass women in general. My irritation is when we make the issue about the mob it takes away from the general disrespect towards woman and apathy towards the law that is demonstrated in these incidents. This isn't about a mob, this is something that happens to so many women everyday in India.

There are organizations coming up slowly but surely, one such organization is jagori

I'm sorry I disagree with you. This just happened to be a mob this time. This happens everyday in India in various capacities where men harrass women in general. My irritation is when we make the issue about the mob it takes away from the general disrespect towards woman and apathy towards the law that is demonstrated in these incidents. This isn't about a mob, this is something that happens to so many women everyday in India.

Exactly so! I hope people don't lose focus on what happened to the girl and instead focus on what capacity it happened. Mob or not, this should not have occurred at all.

Are you sure this isn't about a mob?

Incidents of sexual violence take place in mob situations all over the world and in every culture. Why is this one supposed to be emblematic of Indian culture as a whole?

I'm not trying to downplay day-to-day sexual harassment, groping, and other invasions of personal space and privacy. Those are real and they need to be addressed. And I know they're part of the culture (although again, not just of India but of a lot of developing societies). But don't you see a difference between an creepy asshole groping a woman on a train and a group of 70 men ripping off a woman's dress in a public square?

Don't get me wrong. I hope that groups rise to fight the attitude of male entitlement that marks groping and harassment as acceptable or "fun". I think that ideology needs to change. But a) it's not unique to India and b) this incident sounds much more serious than simple (though obviously still important) harassment. I would say that 70 people attacking one woman certainly qualifies as a mob.

Destroy arranged marriage and this will be considerably reduced.

To Shodan

>>>If this statement were uttered by a nondesi, he/she would be flamed. Why do we have to put up w/ this? A friend of mine had an unfortunate experience at Pamplona festival in Spain. Let's not make sweeping generalizations please.
>>>

Actually, I do differ with you very strongly on this and I will stand by my sweeping generalization that the sexual harrassment in India is the worst of all in the entire world. I have lived almost half my life in India and the other half in the US and have traveled extensively alone in Europe, Asia, and the Americas. I can assure you that I have not faced even 5% of the sexual harrassment I have faced in public places in India anywhere else. Pinching, hooting, catcalling, rubbing, chasing, you name it. I had to change colleges due to the level of sexual harrasment on the local bus and for an entire year my mother had to pick me up at the bus stop to prevent this asshole from following me off the local bus and making disgusting noises and whispering disgusting stuff at me.

Please...the level of sexual harrassment in India (particularly the North) is astounding though one of the worst episodes happened in Goa when I was 13. Just thinking about the kinds of things these guys have done to me still brings feelings of shame, disgust, violation, and uncleaniness.

sp

Are you sure this isn't about a mob?

Incidents of sexual violence take place in mob situations all over the world and in every culture. Why is this one supposed to be emblematic of Indian culture as a whole?

Because this happens ALL the time in India whereas its an exception in the west. Again stop it. Stop making this about what happens elsewhere. The daily harrassment groping all those things are not the same in so many other conservative cultures. It's unheard of in the middle east where you can lose a hand for doing so. Why isn't it happening there? Isn't that culture more conservative and repressed?? General disrespect towards women, general disrespect towards the law, general no one cares attitude IS a big issue. The fact that majority of these things happen because guys know they can get away with it is a problem.

I'm not trying to downplay day-to-day sexual harassment, groping, and other invasions of personal space and privacy. Those are real and they need to be addressed. And I know they're part of the culture (although again, not just of India but of a lot of developing societies). But don't you see a difference between an creepy asshole groping a woman on a train and a group of 70 men ripping off a woman's dress in a public square?

I don't see a difference between this mob behaving this way and the day to day perverts. What is the difference? One is worse than the other? I'm going to assume you aren't implying that.

Destroy arranged marriage and this will be considerably reduced.

Awww Kurma you can't make that kind of a statement and not elaborate. It's now the fault of arranged marriage?

Sorry, Jane. I have to run. I will be back to write more. Every Indian man has the guarantee of a marriage (and sexual partnership is definitely a part of the package). Being a nice guy is not a requirement. Having an income is sufficient.

What I'm suggesting won't stop mob incidents as horrible as this one which can happen in any cultural setup because this is just a bunch of people being savage animals. But it will severely disincentivize publicly harrassing women if you are going to be identified. If the arranged marriage guarantee is removed, being infamous as a groper/sexual harrasser pretty much assures your loserdom forever.

Most all women who travel in Bombay locals on a regular basis know how the handle such people

Apparently the Mumbai police have detained some of perverts involved in the incident. Here is a link to the news article in Mid-Day
http://chalomumbai.com/news/city/2007/january/149547.htm

This isn't about a mob, this is something that happens to so many women everyday in India.

From the article linked in #34:

Why do Indian men harass women? Everyone has a theory, but I suspect that the root of the problem is that women's lives are changing. Women are increasingly venturing out of the home, taking jobs, wearing Western clothes, going to college. Many Indian men feel threatened by this, and sexual harassment is the easiest way to put a woman in her place, or as Gupta puts it, "to assert their traditionally unquestioned male rights."

"Women have to be asexual beings," agrees Pathija from Blank Noise, "because if they are sexual then they're asking for it."

Or maybe, just maybe, Indian men harass women because they can.

Camille,

Incidents like this may not disappear overnight, till it does I feel it is better to be prepared, that is why I mentioned how women who take Bombay locals are prepared. The change has to be the youth; the onus is on them to speak up when they see something like this happen.

Why do Indian men harass women? Everyone has a theory, but I suspect that the root of the problem is that women's lives are changing. Women are increasingly venturing out of the home, taking jobs, wearing Western clothes, going to college. Many Indian men feel threatened by this, and sexual harassment is the easiest way to put a woman in her place, or as Gupta puts it, "to assert their traditionally unquestioned male rights."

The above is nonsense. Women in India have been going to college and working outside the home for decades particularly in the urban areas, where the harrassment is the worst of all and has been going on for decades. Men should be now used to women going to school, college, and working.

The following is key....

Or maybe, just maybe, Indian men harass women because they can.

plus the fact that terrorizing a girl/woman is very cutely (NOT!!!) referred to "eve teasing". Minimize the activity and therefore a woman who protests is a ball-breaker plus she asked for it by traveling in a crowded bus/train or walking in public.

Can you tell my blood is boiling?

sp

Sorry, Jane. I have to run. I will be back to write more. Every Indian man has the guarantee of a marriage (and sexual partnership is definitely a part of the package). Being a nice guy is not a requirement. Having an income is sufficient.

Not true. I don't believe that parents (alright, most parents) will knowingly and willingly marry their daughter to someone like that. I do not think that every Indian man has that guarantee, especially today.

Vi:

I disagree. Those parents will be more likely to want to marry off their perv-of-a-son to some unsuspecting girl through an arranged marriage. I don't think the answer is ending arranged marriages though. It is about the perception of women in the areas where these women are being harrassed plus the advantage to the pervs of being anonymous enough when the train unloads to grope a woman or two before disappearing or before we even know what has happened.

I don't see a difference between this mob behaving this way and the day to day perverts. What is the difference? One is worse than the other? I'm going to assume you aren't implying that.

The scale is what makes it different.

A murder committed by an individual is not "better" than a murder by a lynch mob. But they're different. They reflect different attitudes in a society. They result from different underlying psychology. And a society has to react differently to stop them.

Again, I'm not trying to excuse behavior, or to imply that the day to day harassment is irrelevant to what happened. But to turn this event into an indictment of all Indian men is just getting off topic. When you start out with a generalization you make it much harder for people to come together to actually solve the problem.

To me, just saying that this is a problem of Indian men is nothing more than a variant on the "boys will be boys" attitude. It completely frees individual perpetrators from any personal responsibility and instead slurs the whole population. And it's untrue. Not every Indian guy thinks women are nothing more than sex objects. This is a problem of specific, disrespectul Indian men who think they can get away with this stuff. And yes, I DO think that this kind of disrespectful attitude is present in many societies, particularly the ones still transitioning from patriarchal societies. Southern and Eastern Europe after WWII was notorious for this kind of behavior (not the riots but the groping, harassment, etc...). Japan was notorious in the 70s and 80s. India is still opening up to cultural norms which value women (which is a VERY GOOD thing, obviously), but it's a transition and it's taking time. And there definitely does need to be more local organization to stop this stuff from happening. But don't dismiss the whole of Indian culture or the values of all Indian men based on the fact that some assholes think they should be able to take advantage of women.

Every Indian man has the guarantee of a marriage (and sexual partnership is definitely a part of the package). Being a nice guy is not a requirement. Having an income is sufficient.

I don't necessarily think the threat of being "infamous" would necessarily stop the problem. However, Kurma does actually have a very good point, inadvertantly. Removal of the guarantee of arranged marriage would (theoretically) give guys a greater incentive to develop the relevant social skills required to form a proper, mutually-respectful relationship with a woman which would hopefully culminate in marriage. Generally-speaking, you basically need to be a nice guy in order to achieve that (assuming the relationship isn't based on more dubious foundations) and you also generally need to step your game up in all aspects.

You sure as hell ain't gonna get anywhere by being a chauvinistic misogynistic jerk with serious "boundary issues" and such a staggering lack of respect and empathy for women as your fellow human beings that you think sexually assaulting them (either nefariously on the bus etc, or in the mob scenario described above) is an acceptable way to behave -- especially if you don't have the safety net of falling back on a marriage arranged by Papa and Mummy.

I think a key issue with respect to Indian men in relation to say US/western men is repressed ego driven perversion...Within their families Indian men are both infantilized and worshipped...a pretty lethal combo...producing a wicked god-complex and sense of entitlement...this in relation to a largely non-existent (except among the upper classes)dating scene...and the need to 'get some' by these little prodigal sons gets really, really nasty.

I realize we are going to in circles Neal and I don't think I have any more to say to you than you might to me to change either of our minds. Having said that...

based on the fact that some assholes think they should be able to take advantage of women.

At what point does it become a problem? Is the current saturation of these "some" assholes thru the general population not enough to question ourselves? Shall we continue to defend the men at large like they are all in jeopardy of somehow being assholes themselves? Because obviously the men at large who you imply aren't assholes aren't exactly doing anything either are they?

Sonya,
I hear you and have witnessed same things you’ve mentioned. I think Indian men do it because they can get away w/ it. Barring a few cases, expats don’t have any problems keeping their hands to themselves.
When there’s no fear of reprisal, people do vile things.

JOAT,
A few days ago you made an unfortunate comment on black men and everybody jumped on it. I thought it was a poorly worded statement, but understood where you were coming from. The comments made on Indians on this thread are far more offensive and needed to be called out. Why is New Year’s Eve any different from Woodstock, or any of the above-mentioned incidences?

Coming back to your what can be done comment.
You can start by working in your sphere of influence. When friends and aquiantances understand your zero tolerence policy, they generally refrain from doing that type of BS around you. I know, like a Band-Aid to cancer, but better than nothing. The women police cells of Mumbai and Delhi are doing admirable work, but are underfunded and the department is mired in politics. This lady has done a lot to address this issue.

Re: Arranged Marriages.
Guys who can’t get married and have nothing to lose are likely to take out their frustrations in far more violent ways. Nange se to khuda bhi darta hai. A crappy deal either way.

OK check this out. I think it's so eerie and just plain ole bizarre for all of them to pose like that together as if they are part of some "team"!

They had problems like this in Japan and what Japan did was make buses and trains that are for women only and I think it's about time India considered this. Reading the stories on this bored about how women have to just stand there and take it really irks me. This isnt the best solution, but forcing women to take this abuse until the society changes is just plain barbaric.

If NRI want to help India then there should be a month every year, where we all go back and just ride on buses all day and bash these perverts in the face when they try to touch anyone. It really is a win-win situation because we get to take our bulit of tension of the daily grind over here and help society out over there.

Every Indian woman who goes to India has this same damn story of harrasment, so all of you people screaming about the "generalization's made on this bored are wrong" well then why dont you send your sister's or mother's on a all day bus ride in India. I bet you wont do it.

They had problems like this in Japan and what Japan did was make buses and trains that are for women only and I think it's about time India considered this.

There always have ladies compartments (mahila compartments) in Indian trains for ever. That is only a short term solution.

Early in the comments people raised two issues that are key: a) in India, one gets away with such behavior, and b) mob control, and that need to improve now.

A few days ago you made an unfortunate comment on black men and everybody jumped on it. I thought it was a poorly worded statement, but understood where you were coming from. The comments made on Indians on this thread are far more offensive and needed to be called out.

And I still stand behind my statement even if people found it offensive though we can rehash it on that tread and I will not be repeating it here. It stems from my own experiences and I don't really care if someone thinks I need to be PC about them. Not going there.

Secondly what are people saying about Indians here that is so incredibly offensive? Really? Most of us here are Indian, this is a Indian (SA) blog, what is so wrong about discussing the ills within our own communities? I'm always baffled about this. Anytime these type of incidences happen such arguments completely take away from the gravity of the current situation. The frequency of these incidences and the general level of disdain is not something to be defended. Instead we get all hysterical about it because we think we need to defend all Indians. I'm Indian, I'm embarrassed by these events. Do I think all Indians are like this? Will I hate Indian and Indians because of it? Will I stop being Indian? Come on! Can we get past that or do we need to ride that directional thinking ALL the time?

You can start by working in your sphere of influence. When friends and aquiantances understand your zero tolerence policy, they generally refrain from doing that type of BS around you.

This is the general problem. I'm in NYC. I have never in my immediate realm ever experienced this with my own friends. I don't know any men personally who behave this way or I'd break their legs believe me. The problem is that most civilized society that makes all this noise and feels defensive about this situation is in my shoes. Doesn't know anyone personally, doesn't happen around them so they don't realize the gravity of the situation. Afterall it happened to someone else, not their problem!!

And I can control myself but how do I work on changing the mindset of the people around me? What are the arguments of logic to be employeed? A family priest tried to pull a fast one on me (sexually) at a wedding some years back. I made a lot of noise about it and even published the account. What happened to him? Nothing. He is still the 'man of god' and nothing has come of it. People, including some in my family, tried to convince me that I was seeking attention and was sexually frustrated because I was older and single! Yeah very Monsoon Wedding and I'm a tough cookie but then what? How would I have changed the mind of the society at large to see the ills in this man? And chances are he's doing this to other innocent women even if he didn't succeed with me.

Shallow,

There are ladies compartments in all Bombay local trains too, your solution of all the NRIs going to India a month every year and bashing the crap out of every perve is comedic and hardly constructive. Shodan in #75 puts the solution far more eloquently then I could.

Looks like emotions are more at work here! Not a very constructive argument going on here, stop discussing and go do something about it.

Really? Most of us here are Indian, this is a Indian (SA) blog, what is so wrong about discussing the ills within our own communities?

Absolutely nothing, even if whiteys like PG come on the scene and jump utilize it to further reinforce their racial biases. But if the entire society is at large defunct, what may you and those in your camp offer in terms of solutions? If as you claim, it's an inherent societal problem, then the solution must be equally implementable at the societal level.

It's unheard of in the middle east where you can lose a hand for doing so. Why isn't it happening there? Isn't that culture more conservative and repressed??

The middle east has its fare share of "isolated incidents" as well. Shazia Mirza, a pakistani brit comedian talks about her experience, in all places, Mecca, [link]

Every Indian woman who goes to India has this same damn story of harrasment, so all of you people screaming about the "generalization's made on this bored are wrong" well then why dont you send your sister's or mother's on a all day bus ride in India. I bet you wont do it.

I agree. And brown (#80) it's not limited to trains. It happens virtually everywhere (case in point the subject of this article). And even on trains (yes, in the ladies' compartment) it has happened and will continue to happen. I've heard stories from my cousins who live in various parts of India.

It's unheard of in the middle east where you can lose a hand for doing so. Why isn't it happening there? Isn't that culture more conservative and repressed??

Somebody, I know, she is an archeologist with specialization in Middle East. She and her fellow American/ European counterparts have had horrible stories about public sexual harassment, that would look India very rosy. Typically, it is not the Bedouins who keep a professional distance.

But Sonya has a point too, and I have heard same opinions from others.

It is just poor law enforcement on a daily basis in India. It allows boils down to shakey infrastructure and mindset ......be it roads, airports, harassment.

JOAT,
No point in dignifying their remarks by repeating them. In general, they do it because they’re Indians type of thinking irked me. They do it because they can get away w/ murder is closer to truth. I brought up that other thread just for comparison. The same people who got all PC there seem to be asleep here.

My solution was obviously from a man’s POV. Men tend not to show their true colors in presence of women they know. A general observation, not implying anything about men you know.

What can a woman do? You raise a great question. I won’t insult your intelligence w/ glib answers. I can offer an aluminium bat for you leg-breaking activities though.

I'm out.

Peace.

Or violence. Whatever gets the job done.

The same people who got all PC there seem to be asleep here.

Very true, and an interesting observation.

Meanwhile, I will smoke my pipe, and talk about ills of India in a wine and cheese party tonight.

Vi,

I know it happens at places other than trains and I don’t mean to imply that just because there are ladies compartments in local trains the problems go away. We all know the problem exists, in India as well as the west, I wish we (including myself) spent more time on finding a solution rather than beating non-issues to death. If some of you can point me to any other organizations like Jagori, I will be happy to contribute in whatever little way I can.

If some of you can point me to any other organizations like Jagori

Karma,

The snark is uncalled for, I was being honest. I am not sure what your problem is, try and do your bit and it will be a step in the positive direction.
In case there was any confusion from my comment, I was asking for organizations that other people know of, not necessarily organizations that work to empower women.

Jai Singh, why do you say "inadvertantly"? What you wrote there is exactly the kind of thing I meant. Look at places where women can fully marry and where it is okay for a woman to be unmarried and you'll see men falling all over themselves to be all sensitive and stuff.

sonya:

plus the fact that terrorizing a girl/woman is very cutely (NOT!!!) referred to "eve teasing". Minimize the activity and therefore a woman who protests is a ball-breaker plus she asked for it by traveling in a crowded bus/train or walking in public.

As Kush mentioned above - one DOES get away with such behavior.

In reference to Vi (#69) and Meenakshi (#70): If behavior like this is known to the bride's folk, sure, it is a black mark on the resume. But,

1) This kind of stuff does not show up easily on the resume. Job title, caste, religion, income, skin color, height, weight, family name, connections are usually what are judged.
2) People are much more likely to enquire about the bride's "character" than the groom's.

Even if things are known, which of the following sounds worse to a girl's parent?
a) "He dropped out for a year in college when he was 18 because he had these feelings for a girl. He was madly in love with her and (and somehow) couldn't focus on his career. He's back in college now and is not a bad student."
b) "He spent a year groping women on buses and trains when he was 18. He doesn't do it anymore now."

My belief is that the latter is more likely to be overlooked as "youthfulindiscretion".

Look, I ain't suggesting that arranged marriage be done away with since I know some very good people (men and women) for whom it's impossible to find the right partner (because of their rather unusual requirements) without some kind of arranging mechanism. All I'm saying is that IF arranged marriage is gone (Heh, heh, do I sound like OJ Simpson yet?) this issue will be considerably reduced. When I say "arranged marriage", I don't mean it in a narrow, Indian cultural context. Here are the key things in the alternate scenario I'm wishing for.

1) Women (and men) have the full power of decision on whom they will marry.
2) Men and women get to know each other before they marry (such behaviors cannot remain hidden)
3) If a woman stays unmarried for a long time or forever, that is socially and economically okay.

See how men behave in places where these three things are present.

You know what else will go down? Female infanticide - the train of logic on that one is easy to trace too.

Sorry, in the first paragraph there, I meant "places where women can fully decide whom they marry".

This generalization....seems to be warranted"

SnarkOn: Seriously, take a deep breath and stop thinking like a chick. Think like a real person. /SnarkOff Is that warranted?

Sheesh!

Jay"Grabby"V

The generalization I was defending was:

Indian men seem to have a real hard time resisiting the temptation of touching women.

This is almost (although not perfectly) an empirical statement. There is no speculation about why it happens, but there is no doubt (at least to women who have been in India) that the everyday experience of going out in public, as it pertains to "eve-teasing," is completely different than in the US. So I find it a far more defensible statement than something like "Indian men are all perverts." The "perverts" statement is a better metaphor for your attempted witty counterexample of "stop thinking like a chick."

Secondly, all the phrases you quote from the "analyses" offered by "experts" are totally useless. Even if true, they are so general as to be useless in practical terms. They suggest no course for change. If you are content with that so be it, but surely you ought to be able to see why some others might not have patience for such "commentary."

Most all women who travel in Bombay locals on a regular basis know how the handle such people

There should not have to be a necessity to "know how to handle such people."

Brown,
This is a good place to start. My mom used to work there.

I will stand by my sweeping generalization that the sexual harrassment in India is the worst of all in the entire world......the level of sexual harrassment in India (particularly the North) is astounding

I'm a little tired of hearing "this happens everywhere" arguments everytime shit like this happens.

Thats the usual tu quoque argument used by desi apologists whenever any of India's glaring problems and failures are pointed out. Another example: point out the humongous numbers of beggars in India and invariably some "clever" desi will point out that its a universal problem, he has seen panhandlers even in America. As if the scale of the problem in India is comparable to that in America! It is this sort of chalta hai attitude that accounts for India's miserable conditions. How can you change if you dont even acknowledge you have a problem? And the ones who highlight the problems and the self-deluding lies are ganged up on as "trolls" who need to be banned.....

Indian men harass women because they can.

It is just poor law enforcement on a daily basis in India. It allows boils down to shakey infrastructure and mindset ......be it roads, airports, harassment.

Thats the bottom line. The Indian system of self-government, blindly aped from its colonial british masters, is fundamentally flawed. A corrupt, ignorant and incompetent government, judiciary and bureaucracy that is unable to enforce its own laws has no right to be in power. India's miserable socio-economic conditions stand as proof that it is a failed s