Professional photographer born and raised in Nairobi, think you're chatting a bunch of shit. It would take me ages to explain why, so why don't you use some initiative and read the Myth of Sisyphus by Camus and draw the parallels of what you call "small" Indian community and the so-called security issue. While you're there, perhaps you could enlighten yourself with a trip to the National Museum that I believe are hosting an exhibition on the heritage of East African Indians.

Sitting in a cyber cafe during my Kwanzaa travels so IŽll be brief - much of what youŽre discussing may be related to the pervasive fear of crime. I saw something similar in Durban as well. Also, re the earlier thread, pretty sure the guys in white turbans arenŽt Sikhs but instead some mystical bunch of Christians. They certainly didnŽt interact with me when I was in Nairobi.

They certainly didnŽt interact with me when I was in Nairobi.

The test of a true Sikh :)

Khakhar:

Professional photographer born and raised in Nairobi, think you're chatting a bunch of shit. It would take me ages to explain why, so why don't you use some initiative and read the Myth of Sisyphus by Camus and draw the parallels of what you call "small" Indian community and the so-called security issue.

Regardless of how right or wrong Preston is, I think you are out of line to tell him he's "chatting a bunch of shit", especially since you can only be bothered to patronize, and not actually qualify your assertion with something substancial.

Preston:

I meet people, we chat, drink tea, I take some pictures, maybe I come back again the next day, etc. I don’t really like photographing strangers, so getting to know people is essential to the way I work.

Just want to say I really appreciate this. Voyeurism (especially that of privileged people) makes me really uncomfortable. And yet, I know it's impossible for to avoid voyeurism in a foreign environment even when you have the most professional or altruistic of reasons to be there. Still, some ways of exploring and learning are better than others, and coming up with the more respectful ways is appreciated - if not by the subjects themselves then by viewers like me who cringe at National Geographic and wonder what's really going on. I'm curious though, how do you actually meet your subjects?

think you're chatting a bunch of shit. It would take me ages to explain why,

Go ahead. We have the time. A long but constructive argument is a hell of a lot more welcome than the kind of rude, conversation-squelching putdown you have issued. A shame, because it sounds like you may have an interesting counterpoint to offer. Well then offer it, courteously please.

Kakhar, are you in Nairobi at the moment? Perhaps we could have coffee. I'm not sure what you find out of line. My comments are colored by observations in other parts of the diaspora, where Indian culture is more obvious and present than it is in Nairobi. As I noted in a comment to a prior post, you can read the daily newspapers here in English cover to cover and not see a story about an Indian person or note a single Indian name. Such is not the case in New York, Houston, Durban, Dubai, Georgetown, or Port of Spain (the other places I have photographed recently). I find this a little odd. So my question, generally, is why is Indian culture backgrounded when the community itself is prosperous and integral to the city, especially in business? Is it simply a matter of security? Maybe it is.

The Asian Heritage Exhibit is being expanded and updated. It's not on view at the moment. I've seen the catalogue and talked to people who had a hand in organizing it (nearly every Indian family in Nairobi has contributed materials). The community here is "small." The Indian government's estimate is that it comprises .36% of the total population of Kenya (PDF about Indian presence in Africa)

Shruti, I meet people any way I can. I was in touch with a number of people by email before I came. I meet them here, they introduce me to new folks, who introduce me to other folks.

Preston, I think that private-ish tone is to some extent true in the U.S. as well. Outside of major desi enclaves in the big cities, most Indians and Pakistanis out in the suburbs tend to live pretty quietly -- more or less invisible. People don't want to cause an embarrassing ruckus at Diwali or Holi, and for the most part, they aren't allowed to. Many of the things that are done quite publicly in India (for instance, a wedding baraat) are done on private property in the U.S. (i.e., the wedding baraat is limited to the parking lot).

Needless to say, the omnipresent noise of mosques and temples doing early morning prayers is also absent.

Very interesting posts. I haven't ever travelled to Africa yet, and hope to do so soon. Re: 'this is not a city of walkers', I remember thinking the same even when I first visited the USA. The people in the apartment complexes were usually invisible; you saw more cars than people! Not a sound from the children too; a far cry from a residential society in India. Of course, later one begins to discover the weekend poolside barbeques where everyone (or most) do appear. Similarly, the Indian temples where most desis come in during weekends; or desi clubs in the bigger cities.

Outside of major desi enclaves in the big cities, most Indians and Pakistanis out in the suburbs tend to live pretty quietly -- more or less invisible.

I think this statement needs to be qualified Amardeep, simply because U.S. suburban life is pretty much wholly unique to the U.S. At least, I can't think of another country with a similar social and geographical stratification. I guess my point is that most people, not just desis, in the suburbs tend to live pretty quietly and tend to keep out of each other's business. I've never seen a baarat on public property, but nor have I seen the Greek or Italian equivalent of the baarat on public property either...at least in the suburbs. Cities, as you point out, are wholly different where each culture has its own festival and can celebrate quite publicly.

Maybe it has to do with Indians being such a minority of Kenya, in simple numbers terms they are less visible, whereas in South Africa they form proportionately higher parts of the population in Durban. Also, what Amardeep said, the socio-economic profile means they are more suburban and so there are less 'taxi drivers' to be out on the streets doing that kind of thing.

In Britain things out in the open, every summer every city or town (even a small town like Swindon!) has a mela which is held in the local municipal park, open to everyone, there are firework displays on diwali, concerts, processions for vaisakhi etc. London has a special day set aside for diwali and vaisakhi in Trafalgar square itself. Plus the Notting Hill carnival, other festivals are out there all the time.

south east asia contrasts highly.. here the celebrations/festivals are highly public and used by the respective govts for their "cultural" promos. Of course the percentages are higher in places like Malaysia and Singapore (6% I think) but I can see similar things same happening in Indonesia or Thailand where there are comparably fewer indians. In any case the .6% number is not relevant.. what counts is the % in Nairobi which could be much higher. Maybe it has to do with cultural compatibility ? Given that most of south east asia has had indian influences over the past millenia or more, it is easier to relate.. In fact one has the odd spectacle of large number of chinese visiting indian temples in some of these places. Much of Africa (correct me.. and I exclude North africa) hasnt had comparable civilizational influences in their history.

I don't know where you are hanging out, but believe me, if you think there are no Indians to be found in public places, you are mistaken. Have you been to Westlands? Sarit Center? Yaya? Any restaurants? Oswal ground in the evening? The list goes on and on. Indian weddings with 2,000 guests are routine, taking place almost every weekend. Indians are an extremely visible public presence, both absolutely speaking and relative to the west. My perspective is of a Nairobi-born, now living in California.

I agree that minority communities tend to keep low profiles. Nairobi is pretty lively--I didn't mean to imply that it's not, but you don't see Indians walking around, except for the occasional shopkeeper or suited businessman. I am sure there are big Indian festivals here--Kenyandesi, msichana, and others will write about them. My question is more about the everyday presence. If you note the impact of the East Asian Heritage exhibition, which Khakar mentioned, and which drew international acclaim (people are still talking about it), you would think that Nairobi was an Indian city on the order of Durban. Perhaps it was historically. But today the Indian presence is much less obvious, and I am curious to know why.

Have you been to the coast yet? Some years ago, at least, the lighthouse area in Mombasa was a great public space with an Indian feel, as families drove up in the evenings to snack on fried cassava and the like.

Kampala, according to the old-timers, was very much an Asian city in the 1960s; easy to imagine when one walks among the older structures in the city, including the prominent temples.

As I noted in a comment to a prior post, you can read the daily newspapers here in English cover to cover and not see a story about an Indian person or note a single Indian name.

Perhaps, but this is not simply an unwanted coincidence when you consider the (Asian allied) ownership of some of the papers. Also note the prominence of some Asian academics, such as Ghai in the East African

I think the problem has to be security, I don’t know when you were in Durban but the Durban of the last 10 years is a pale comparison of what it use to be. The large number of S.Asians in South Africa allows them to feel a little safer and therefore you see them everywhere, if you go out on a Sunday the flea markets that line up the coasts are a photographers dream (sigh, I miss home)I have traveled to many African cities and from what I have seen be it in Lusaka or Lesotho if security is the issue; brown people are not coming out to play. As for the Durbs brownz, you couldn’t keep us out of the sun or the beach! :)

Integration could also be an issue.

Preston thinking:

I meet people, we chat, drink tea,

Perhaps we could have coffee.

Perhaps we could have coffee.

arrey yaar preshtun.. jhoo need to gho to the flea market next to globe suh-neema. you'd see these malloo guys with huge handlebar moustaches (i just used to find it very funny then). i think now they were just trawling for booty tho with the hot mama vendors.

is globe still around btw? i'm sure the flea market's survived)

I definitely respect your experience, Preston, but I have to agree with the below:

I don't know where you are hanging out, but believe me, if you think there are no Indians to be found in public places, you are mistaken. Have you been to Westlands? Sarit Center? Yaya? Any restaurants? Oswal ground in the evening?

Perhaps the issue of "public space" is more of an issue of where you are. Perhaps you should check out bhangra nights at the clubs, also? Desi youth culture is so fascinating in Nairobi. I feel like I have seen most folks in the market and tending shop during the day; perhaps that plays a role as well? (they are there, but behind store counters). Also, I really think you should venture out to Mombasa and Kisumu. Desis are everywhere - on the street, in shops, everywhere. Even in Jinja (Uganda) you can see such a historic Asian presence - especially in building architecture -, and on the main street you can see tons of desis.

Also, just out of curiosity, what newspapers are you reading? While desis were not often "front page" news, I read The Nation pretty regularly and could always find a local story that involved some desi character.

Preston,

I don't know if you've had a chance to speak to my brother yet but he might suggest Nairobi Gymkhana to you. If you get the chance, go check it out on sunday afternoon with him. You will find a lot there. Village Market in Gigiri is another place where Indians congregate, hand in hand with black and white people. It's quite cool there.

And yes, security is an issue but people get around it. Hence the numerous shopping venues that many have mentioned above.

N`gara still boasts grocery shops opened by first generation indians. Try and see if you can get there. Some of them are old time chaps who love to chat.

is globe still around btw? i'm sure the flea market's survived)

Globe is still around but it's a church now. The flea market is now the famous 'Maasai Market' that is held ever Tuesday there and on Fridays at The Village Market.

Perhaps the issue of "public space" is more of an issue of where you are. Perhaps you should check out bhangra nights at the clubs, also? Desi youth culture is so fascinating in Nairobi.

N`gara still boasts grocery shops opened by first generation indians. Try and see if you can get there. Some of them are old time chaps who love to chat.

ah-ha-ha... my mind is driving up the hill, turning to the left passing by the desi newsstands on the right going into the vegetable market right now... but then turning around and going down those desi restaurants, what's that i see... the stinky public choo's - vyoos... woohoos.

seriously tho' go into the desi religious spots - major mingling there. but yes... be careful walking around in kenya - i was mugged at the end of a switchblade - and i heard of a guy whose testicle was gored by a waterbuffalo and he was trampled over into an assmunch. he died of gangrene to the balls. the critters will get you, one way or the other.

hairy_d, it's a small world: I was once a pupil of Mrs. Mbogo's too.

Re South Asians in the public eye: Prof. Ghai was in the news non-stop for a year or two, as someone has pointed out. The BBC once calledhim as Kenya's 'most important man'. Also, during the 90's, Pheroze Nowrojee stood out as one of the most visible pro-reformists, both in the media and in the courts. Examples could be multiplied. There's definitely a strong, positive South Asian public presence in Kenya.

I have to say...I had a vague idea about a multi-generational Gujju/Punjabi/Muslim presence in eastern Africa (as well as a lively party scene among the younger gen), but this series of threads has been a real eye-opener. I didn't realise the size and extent of this community or the cultural dynamism at work...as well as the obvious pride and love for Africa AND the desi heritage. Excellent stuff.

Been to Carnivore yet?

Very interesting observation Preston. Indian cultural expressions tend to be played out in the public sphere and have the quality of including everyone regardless of whether they want to participate or not. Just go to a noisy north Indian wedding baarat or diwali or holi celebrations.
Abuout Nairobi, I don't know what the relations between the Indians and the Africans are, maybe that has something to do with it and the fact that they are so miniscule.

Preston
Part of my family that moved from India at the start of the century still lives in Nairobi and my mother is currently visiting for a few weeks. I could put you in touch with them if you like.
Regards
Karim

ok. it's midnight on friday and i'm typing away. not good. here's the reason. i made the mistake of sitting down with mg vassanji's "no new land" and it was quite unputdownable. The first few chapters trace the history of a nurdin lalani in tanzania from the time the germans brought indians to run and manage business houses at the turn of the 20th century. there is a reference to indians 'buying' african women and having children with them. - this was new to me- and a reference to the rising discomfort with the afrocentric policies that left the indians behind. i finally put the book down with a chuckle at the line that starts chapter 4 where the lalanis begin a life in canada.

What would immigrants in in Toronto do without Honest Ed's...

but.. it IS midnight on Friday. Night's still young and queen st beckons.