"Hey, babe, you not want to talk because not looking good? But I use cream? Why not want to talk?"

Where.do.I.even.BEGIN??????????

If I replace the heading of that chart
"Why there is a need for fair skin?" ... by "Why there is a need to be thin?"

It would then be applicable to west. All the patronizing language can then be used to explain, why do western women have to be thin? ..etc etc

Oh my gawwwd! This is so fucked up! Totally reinforces the EXACT opposite of what I'm trying to teach my kids in PE/Health. We're doing a unit on self-esteem and how it is reflected in communication skills with people. My 9th and 10th graders have been talking self-esteem, body image/skin tone and will be moving on to relationships next! Sorry to yell, but I feel so passionately about kids learning that self-worth shouldn't be connected to skin hue/shade.

RC, skin color is a big issue in the west as well, particularly shade of skin within many black communities. Just a couple of days ago I overheard two adults two parents, referring to a light-skinned teenager as being "much finer than that other black roach. " Does it get any sicker? I'll ansewer my own question, Yes-it does.

Just a little more western skin tone obsession for RC:
My cousin once found her mother burning old, old photos of a bisabuela (great-grandmother ?). The only pictures we had of her. The reasoning was that 'you can't tell we are related to her by looking at us'. The old lady was black, as in African.

Check out Mary J. Bliges latest album - I thought it was Beyonce.

There is a look in the entertainment industry that is being swept across all faces and that is the golden glow with the elongated nose and blonde streaks in hair look. Everyone is starting to look the same and it is so boring to turn page after page of magazines and see the same face, hair and body type on every woman.

What a relief to see pastey Nicole Kidman and cocoa Whoopie Goldberg. Everyone else seems to fall into the "look alike" category.

I thought it was Beyonce.

I came here with the intention of condemning the men who use this cream in the strongest terms possibe, but I find myself too exhauted from a morning workout that included 200 1bs of squats designed to bulk up my ridiculosly skinny indian legs.

NOTE: I deleted a comment that linked (not in support) to a racist/white-supremacist website and another comment that responded to a point made on that website. I appreciate you guys were just trying to add to the conversation but let's not give that crap the time of day and risk wholesale threadjacking here. Thanks.

Just saw Dreamgirl and i swear Beyonce could pass for Ash in one of the many money shots.

Same here.

After loosing 20 pounds on THE MASTER CLEANSE, Beyonce's face became much thinnner and more angular and her nose was looking very Aishwarya-ish.

NOTE: I deleted a comment that linked (not in support) to a racist/white-supremacist website and another comment that responded to a point made on that website

Razib, stop linking to majority rights :)

Oh where do I begin? I feel like I'm still tired from discussing this issue last time around. This is huge huge huge business in India. Unilever is the parent company of Hindustan Lever which is the category captain in whitening products in India. Unilever is an Anglo Indian company and has huge products even in the United States...Breyers, Lipton, Vaseline, Sunsilk as well as Dove & Slimfast.

The whitening cream industry is a billion dollar industry not just limited to India. It's huge business in the Middle East, all thru Asia concentrating on the "darker" shades of Asia. I don't see this going away anytime soon. Just as acceptance of non slim people isn't happening in the west anytime soon, wanting to be 'fair' isn't going away anytime soon in India.

she offered little concrete evidence of skin color discrimination among desis in the UK

The light skin obsession is sky high in Pakistani Punjab and is surely carried over by the same demographic in UK. I am curious as to whether there is any part of South Asia, where skin color is not an obsession?

Unilever is an Anglo Indian company and has huge products even in the United States...Breyers, Lipton, Vaseline, Sunsilk as well as Dove & Slimfast.

I was once using the restroom of a very close African American buddy of mine on the way to a party and he had left his skin whitening cream outside. This shit is supposedly pretty big in all segments of the African American population.

"Hey, babe, you not want to talk because not looking good? But I use cream? Why not want to talk?"

For some reason, MSN messenger and Skype are installed on my computer (I have no idea how they work) and I get random IMs from dudes all over the world that sound JUST like this line. Usually followed by "You like [Mumbai/Cairo/Barcelona/Kyoto/Manila/etc.]? You come visit me?"

This shit is supposedly pretty big in all segments of the African American population.

It definitely sells very well as do so many of L'Oreal's whitening products in African countries. I didn't even realize it would be a big thing here. The color obsession is just as well in Latino cultures as well as Black cultures. I have a Puertorican friend who has more of the African American look and she said her mother was disowned because she married a man who wasn't as light skinned and non kinkied hair as her and had given birth to darker children. It rang very true to my own life. So the obsession exists with everyone except white people.

I've written about this on my blog. I'd post it on here, but I don't want the interns on my back, so feel free to comment on it there.

If I replace the heading of that chart "Why there is a need for fair skin?" ... by "Why there is a need to be thin?"

It would then be applicable to west. All the patronizing language can then be used to explain, why do western women have to be thin? ..etc etc

Hey, babe, you not want to talk because not looking good? But I use cream? Why not want to talk?"

For some reason, MSN messenger and Skype are installed on my computer (I have no idea how they work) and I get random IMs from dudes all over the world that sound JUST like this line. Usually followed by "You like [Mumbai/Cairo/Barcelona/Kyoto/Manila/etc.]? You come visit me?"

shruti, check this hot indian guy out. http://www.myspace.com/hotindianguy you're gonna crack. he befriended every brown girl on myspace.

What about the whole hair color trend ?
Every other person in India is going for that blond/brown (whatever it is called) streaks.
This is also quite common among 1-geners girls here in the US.

There is a look in the entertainment industry that is being swept across all faces and that is the golden glow with the elongated nose and blonde streaks in hair look.

Where I lived in Kenya there wasn't piped water, but there was Fair and Lovely. That shit is everywhere and it is crazy. Talking with my friends who are of Puerto Rican, Peruvian, and Mexican descent, the skin color issues is prevalent in their communities also (esp. for folks who "look indigenous" or "look African").

With the rest of Asia, part of the reason Filipino maids are recruited in Hong Kong is because people say that darker-skinned Sri Lankan maids scare their children because they are so dark they look like monsters.

Also, like brown_fob mentioned, the hair color trend is driving me crazy! Case in point: Lindsey Lohan. How cute was she with red hair, and how bizarre does she look blonde?

Guys who cater to this fairness thing in judging their women probably judge 'fairness' standards in relation to their own. Therefore, wouln't a guy want to be as dark as possible in order to invite the self-esteem-enhancing comments "You're so bloody kala yaar, how did you score her?? You must be real cool man, real cool."

Just saw Dreamgirl and i swear Beyonce could pass for Ash in one of the many money shots.

Uh...money shots? Many? Beyonce?

When does it come out on DVD?

Just as acceptance of non slim people isn't happening in the west anytime soon, wanting to be 'fair' isn't going away anytime soon in India.

But there is a difference here. While the hollywood standard is often very unrealistic and dangerous, being thin is a healthy thing. Excercising and eating right are things that nearly everyone can do regardless of race. The problem with this fair skin thing is that it creates a racial hierarchy that automatically precludes whole races of people from competing... which, especially for women, can be absolutely devastating. Not to mention the fact that being lighter in skin color is NOT an indication of health. You cannot convince me that Reese Witherspoon is more attractive than Stacy Dash just because she is white. Sorry.

And then you have men who come out of nowhere to assert that lighter skin for women has always been the standard (here and in a lot of disscussions within the black community). Nothing infuriates me more than seeing non-white men go way out of their way to prove to everyone they know that non-white women are ugly, have always been ugly, and will always remain ugly for xyz scientific reasons... and naturally that's why they choose to date white women. Dating white men has its issues, but I have never, EVER, been around ANY group of white men who felt the need to use skin color as a decisive factor in determining beauty. So I can understand why the majority of non-white women who choose to date interracially date do so with white men. They usually don't have the same skin color hangups as our male counterparts.

That was off topic but whatever...

Also, I am really honestly confused at the number of black americans some of you know who use whitening creams. Not that I'm the authority on its use, but I've never met anyone that used the stuff. Whenever I see discussions about this the topic is their use in Africa and sometimes the West Indies and South America. Which isn't to say that skin color isn't an issue in our community. It's just that not very many people here use a cream to try and "fix" the problem. Hair on the other hand...

Nothing infuriates me more than seeing non-white men go way out of their way to prove to everyone they know that non-white women are ugly, have always been ugly, and will always remain ugly for xyz scientific reasons... and naturally that's why they choose to date white women.

Hmmm, who does that description remind me of here?? :)

Do these creams actually work (even a little, obviously) or are the global corporations taking all these poor africans and indians for a ride with false advertising?

Also, I am really honestly confused at the number of black americans some of you know who use whitening creams. Not that I'm the authority on its use, but I've never met anyone that used the stuff.

I can say the same myself. I've never seen a whitening cream in any of my relatives/friends homes but doesn't mean they don't exist. That these conversations are happening in homes/communities means it's an issue for sure.

JOAT, I don't doubt that there are some people buying this stuff. I've seen the Ambi in the stores and have considered buying it myself (for dark spots)... I just don't think the use of it is that widespread in black america. Mainly because we use other caustic substances quite openly in the search for mainstream beauty.

The problem with this fair skin thing is that it creates a racial hierarchy that automatically precludes whole races of people from competing...

In case of India, it is not a racial thing. It is a beauty standard, just like being blond is in the west. Look at the number of blondes that appear in magazines and movies, and you see that the same happens in India with light-skinned people. And in India, skin colour does not give an indication of your caste or social status. High caste south-indians are generally darker than low-caste north indians. Furthermore, the South of India (Bangalore, etc.) is richer and more developed than the North, so you do the math.

And finally, studies have shown than North and south indians are very close genetically, and we are a mix of several tribes. This means that it is natural for indian sibilings to be born with different shades of brown, some lighter, some darker. And yes, lighter skinned children are said to be more beautiful. But it does not mean that we are of different races, or that there is segregation between aryan and dravidian races.

Historically, the west has discriminated, enslaved and lynched dark-skinned people. The same does not happen in India: it is just a beauty concept. Wait you say: what about bollywood movies and magazines, doesn't that count as discrimination? Well yes, but that happens in the US as well: only few women who fit the beauty standard have the spotlight.

However, India does have a problem with caste. Some of the news coming from India even today, report that high-caste hindus from backward villages are lynching dalit families. This reminds me of the klan from the 60's, and how far we have to work to curb intolerance in our motherland.

Oneup: did you know that Ambi and Aveeno both sell dark spot treatments? They have identical ingredients yet Aveeno is I believe $1-$2 more expensive, for the exact same amount. Both companies are owned by Johnson and Johnson? What does THAT mean, in terms of marketing? I didn't find the Ambi product in the "of color" aisle in the store, but figured it probably was for darker skinned women because of the beige/cocoa color theme on the packaging. (Anyway, save your money -- Neutrogena on-the-spot is 100 times better!)

I still cannot bring myself to make a coherent comment on this topic. I'm too busy still wallowing in self-pity over my obvious lack of confidence, pride and self-esteem due to my incorrigibly dark skin and lack of usage of 'Fair and Handsome'.

boo hoo hoo...

"Are you a Safi girl?"

I'm an ABD but lived in India for a year, five years ago. At that time, almost every ad on TV was for a skin-lightening soap or tonic.

I just came back from a visit and was happy to see that the commercials have branched out and didn't see a single ad for a skin lightening product, which I think is odd. But that doesn't mean Indians still aren't obsessed with being light skinned.

All the girls on two-wheelers sport a look that I like to call Terrorist-Chic. They have long white gloves on, and have an old dupatta wrapped completely around their heads so just their eyes show, but most of them wear sunglasses as well. Five years ago, girls only dressed like that in summer time (this is in Gujurat). But it seems they do this year around according to my cousin. She says it's the "fashion" now, which I can believe.

As far as how desis outside of India feel about dark skin, my experience has been varied. I would call myself a light brown skinned person. When I was younger, I would spend every day of the summer in the pool and my mom would call my sister and me karee booths (I love how in India a ghost is black and it the US its thought of as white). She would get annoyed with us for spending so much time in sun and getting dark but never stopped us from doing it. Now, she doesn't care, she's over it. Her only concern is that we aren't damaging our skin and that we wear sunscreen when we are going to be out all day. I've been lucky that she cares more about what I do, than how dark I am. But I do remember another Indian girl from my high school who didn't like being out in the sun because she didn't want to get dark. And another friend who's cousin didn't go outside for a month before her wedding becuase her mother-in-law made some comment about her being dark and she was one of the lightest skinned Sindhi's that I had ever seen in my life!

Personally, I think having dark skin is a blessing. I don't have to worry about sun spots, pre-mature aging and wrinkles, getting sunburned and looking pasty white after winter. Some of my friends are starting to have crow's feet and laugh lines and I don't have any. I'm always carded at bars and people think I'm way younger than I look (I'm 30). Sometimes that's a disadvantage when you are at work and you want people to take you seriously. But all in all, I love my brown skin!

Oneup,

Ambi uses two main ingredients in their creams that contribute to the lightening of dark spots and imagine what that does for all over face. One removes pigmentation from the skin and the other is a form of sunscreen, this combo used over a period of time does make skin with higher melanin concentrations "lighter".

Here is a recent story from the British media.

By the way products with higher levels of RetinA as well as Vitamin C will help with the dark spots.

But I do remember another Indian girl from my high school who didn't like being out in the sun because she didn't want to get dark.

And here in the US people want to venture outdoors ..in the sun to have a nice tan.

Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

Hmmm. Its been a while, and only 33 comments on a skin colour thread. The monster is dead.

In the past two months, two brown girls I've been close to have gotten engaged to white guys. One of them being my cousin and the other a close friend. Their families feel alienated but I think its all their doing in the first place. These girls are dark skinned and gorgeous. When I hung out with them they always got hit on by tons of white guys, and many black guys. I know that they always prefered the desi boys just because of the "cultural comfort". However they never got much attention from Indian guys and I think this has a lot to do with them being dark skinned. They were the "dark sheep" of the family and the folks at home had no qualms about stating this openly. In the end the chances of them meeting a nice brown boy were greatly diminished because of this kind of ridiculousness.
Everything said and done, I am happy that they found someone who loves them for who they are and recognizes how gorgeous they are, but at the same time am quite disgusted with my own race and family for these double standards. I am not gloating over the fact that we lost these two girls to "the man". All I am trying to say is that brown folks in general have to learn how to appreciating beauty in their own kind.
For anyone who cares I am a FOB +5 years, Indian Male 27.

As a dark-skinned girl Indian girl, I'd like to be able to say that I never used whitening creams. But the only difference between me and the other girls was that they used it openly and I didn't. I was ashamed of trying to whiten my skin, especially as I was always pointing out to uncles and aunts that white skin isn't a requirement for beauty.

I didn't *want* to be a girl who wanted to be fair, but in my confused teenage years, I thought I had no other choice. I thought, how else am I going to get noticed by the boys...any boy, even the smart ones who read serious novels and could hold an intelligent conversation. I thought I had a triple whammy: I was dark, fat *and* eccentric. :)

I was wrong about everything. I grew up, got a job, got confident. The confidence got me noticed. If only I had known earlier!

I agree with the majority of the commentators here. It is indeed despicable that Corporates etch our sense of fashion and play on our insecurities for profits. Throughout life, the average Indian is bombarded with these subtle messages that indentures one into a lifetime spent in the pursuit of that ever evading hue; all at tremendous financial strain, of course.
The Indian government should immediately ban all companies manufacturing these fairness creams and deport their CEOs. This should be followed by establishing a programme geared towards educating the masses on the easily available natural, and therefore authentically Indian, alternatives to Fairness Creams.
Natural fairness remedies concocted using Saffron, Neem, Lime, Turmeric, Hibiscus, Papaya, et al. should be promoted at a national as well as regional level. Fair celebrities like Aishwarya Rai and Abhishek Bachan must be appointed as Ambassadors for this programme. A National Fairness Institute should be established to oversee the operations of this programme. Regular and strict adherence to the programme will ensure that the new India has fairer, clearer and attractive skin. A National Fairness Index should be established and a five year plan should be rolled out to match or exceed the index. Once the index is matched, the index should be upgraded for the next five years as the nation sets higher goals. Every Panchayat should ensure that the policies are being adhered to at a grass-root level and there should be weekly progress reviews. Schools should make arrangements to ensure that the pupils follow a strict regimen of cleansing, toning and moisturizing during every break. Eventually, there will be one, uniform, marriageable, skin-tone throughout India. “India Shining” will become true. And then and only then, shall we talk about affordable cosmetic surgery for the masses...

And here in the US people want to venture outdoors ..in the sun to have a nice tan.

My dad would always yell at me if I ever used the word "tan." He never understood the concept of purposely making your skin darker.

I thought that this color issue didn't affect me since I'm fairly happy with my skin tone (sort of a medium to light brown, depending on the season). And I don't usually hesitate to go outside in hot, sunny weather, even though I can get a really dark tan which takes like two months to completely fade away. But badindiangirl's post made me realise...one year I went to Barbados just a week before I was supposed to go to India. In any other circumstances, I would have been soaking up the rays in Barbados, living on the beach, going snorkelling, boating, being outside the whole time, basically enjoying it the way a tropical Caribbean island SHOULD be enjoyed. But because I was about to go to India right afterwards, and meet hordes of relatives and other people, I tried my hardest in Barbados NOT to get a tan (really exasperating my friends in the process). I didn't want to be perceived as too dark by people in India. And you know the funny thing...if the same situation were to happen today, I'd probably behave the same way. And you know what's funnier...my sister, who is significantly fairer than me, but probably a lot more americanized, doesn't care about these issues at all, and would gladly get a tan without regard to any impending India trip. This despite the fact that as a girl, she would be judged far more harshly than me for it. She doesn't really get deep tans no matter what though.

Still only 39 comments? Penis envy has cured our racism.

Where's Jai? Just kidding.

Milli ans JOAT: Thanks for the tips. :)

Ambi uses two main ingredients in their creams that contribute to the lightening of dark spots and imagine what that does for all over face. One removes pigmentation from the skin and the other is a form of sunscreen, this combo used over a period of time does make skin with higher melanin concentrations "lighter".

I definitely see how a product like ambi could be used to achieve lighter skin... But I don't think that sales of the stuff automatically mean that those who use the product are using it for that purpose. It would be nearly impossible to figure out the percentage of ambi customers that are using it properly.

Here is a recent story from the British media.

Its important to note the ethnic makeup of black people in the UK though. Black people in the UK are largely West Indian and African, right?

Amitabh,

She doesn't really get deep tans no matter what though.

Interesting that you say that. I know some desi girls here with the same issue, including those who are fair enough for their skin to actually end up turning red and peeling instead like the angrezis if they spend too much time in the sun. It's quite amusing for everyone concerned, although obviously not a pleasant experience either.

Oneup,

Its important to note the ethnic makeup of black people in the UK though. Black people in the UK are largely West Indian and African, right?

Yes. They're the second-largest non-white ethnic British group, after South Asians.

Red Snapper,

Where's Jai? Just kidding.

Heh heh, very funny :) I'm staying out of this particular debate unless absolutely necessary.

In case of India, it is not a racial thing. It is a beauty standard, just like being blond is in the west.

It's more than that, it's a marker of class, just as it was in Victorian times in Europe. People who have fair skin are able to be that way because of their excessive leisure time. People that work in the sun all day can't. In the US, where being tan is the beauty standard for whtie people, and most working women work indoors, tanning is a leisure activity, so being tan correlates with being of a higher social class. Obviously there are other issues at play, and I admit that the overly tanned fake and bake look is trashy, not classy, but skin color is a marker of the ability to afford luxury and that's part of it's cachet. Hence despite my Indian background, after living in the states for many years, I don't feel like it's been a great vacation unless I have some tan lines to show off.

Incidentally, many white people are under the impression that brown people don't tan, i.e. they remain the same shade of brown throughout their lives. People often express surprise when they see my flip flop tan lines in the summer.

I was in India this summer and my mom asked me, "Would you like to get some of your freckles and your dark spots on your face taken care of? It will be so cheap to do it here in B'lore." And without missing a beat, I replied, "No, mom. They are a part of me, and I'm going to keep them." I was suprised at how easily the words came out of my mouth. My mom apologized right away and told me that she was proud of me for saying such a thing. At the end of the summer, I went to a salon to get a facial. The girl kept telling me how I must have had a "long" vacation because my skin was so "black" from the sun; she insisted that I try a skin "brightener" to even out my complexion. Because she was speaking in bad English, and I in bad Tamil, the wires were crossed and she ended up applying this junk to my face. During the process, I tried to convince myself that it was some sort of exfoliant. Afterwards, I looked at the bill, and sure enough, it was listed as an "organic milk bleach." It made my face burn like hell for two days afterwards, and my skin tone looked exactly the same. Ugh. Part of me wished that I had enough time to go back to the salon equipped with the Tamil words to say "I'm perfectly happy with my skin, thank you!"

What's wrong with a brown beauty standard? I'd think Desis would be an innovator of that type of thing. Not every culture in the world, and certainly not every individual in every culture thinks whiter is beautiful. Cuba and Brazil, for example, revere not blondes, but mulattas. Let's not oversimplify the world. I think there are multiple beauty standards in competition, and I think the "middle" brown beauty standard should definitely be in the mix.

The skin whitening industry is huge in China too. I saw many commercials and advertisements for whitening cremes when I lived there 2 years ago.
It's interesting that Dove, which has the "campaign for real beauty" sells whitening creme in China. I actually bought some to try to take care of the circles under my eyes (which is what the woman did in the Dove commercial). But alas, it didn't work.

Well, at least now the guys in India are feeling pressure as much as the girls when it comes to looks. Previously things were way off balance. Not that I promote the use of Fairness Creams, but I think it's about time certain men realize they have to refine their game and prove themselves to womankind instead of just expecting to land a future mate on the laurels of the family name or whatever. Indian women bring fairness creams and a dowry to the conjugal table, men can at least bring their own beauty products.

People who have fair skin are able to be that way because of their excessive leisure time. People that work in the sun all day can't.

I dont see how that reasoning applies to indians or africans. Desis are dark even where the sun don't shine.

I actually bought some to try to take care of the circles under my eyes (which is what the woman did in the Dove commercial). But alas, it didn't work.

It made my face burn like hell for two days afterwards, and my skin tone looked exactly the same.

So these creams don't even work. If they actually worked well this could be a huge business I am sure.

My skin is so fair (because I'm half-Egyptian, half-Polish/German; just check the SM photos from the latest LA meetup), and I HATE it. I don't understand the fairer-the-skin hierarchy in desi cultures, and I probably never will. It seems so ungrounded. Because you know, South Indian ladies, I think your dark skin is BEAUTIFUL. It's so radiant and glowing that I would kill for your brown hues. And South Indian men, I LOVE ME SOME SEPIA MALEAGE! Oh. I really do. I want to have your brownie babies (in the far-off future)! My heart is a-thumpin', thumpthumpthump! I think desis are some of the most beautiful people in the world - dark or light, no matter to me.

So these creams don't even work. If they actually worked well this could be a huge business I am sure.

It's already a HUGE business, so I guess for some people they do eventually work.

What about India's "breast cream" by Ayur?

Has anyone here ever used it? I admit I have. But not long enough to see any results. And I came to the conclusion that what makes it looks like it works is the upward motion of the massage you have to do while applying it. Yeah, I imagine if you massage your breasts upward everyday for a year, there will be some noticeable difference, with or without cream. I've got some funny tales to tell about buying it though.

What about India's "breast cream" by Ayur?

One of Biotherm's top selling creams is called Bust Up "Intensive Bust Firming Gel". The concept is the same as anti cellulite creams. Over a period of time it makes the appearance of uneven skin/fat appear smoother and makes the skin soft. I promise you no cream out there on earth can brow a woman's breasts just by rubbing it in. :-)

in my family i am the only one with a dark complexion. very dark. while all in my immedeate family are as light as an italian or most latin appear to be. i think it's a recessive gene. my grandma and an aunt are the same.

anyhow i've grown up in three countries: benares, india; all over puerto rico; and new jersey. and honestly the only place that i've to encounter any sort of prejudice due to complexion was in jersey. family members had teasing comments, puerto rico was brutal during school, but the garden state was the only place where i was left be.

b*llsh*t like fair skin cream really messes with kids' esteem. luckily i came to this state at an early enough age to gain back confidence and begin to appreciate my skin tone.

In the end the chances of them meeting a nice brown boy were greatly diminished because of this kind of ridiculousness.

I don't buy this. It's more likely that these attractive girls found someone they were attracted to, as opposed to being dumped by Indian guys because they were dark skinned, which last time I checked, is pretty much the colour of the average Indian, give or take away some shades of brown. Which by the way, the average white does not really care. Please everyone. Haven't you seen really ugly women and men who are light-skinned? And really gorgeous dark-skinned people? (Check Heroes and Lost TV series). So, you are either attractive or you aren't. Changing your skin colour doesn't do much in the West, and even in India. Except of course, if you want to get into Bollywood.

anyhow i've grown up in three countries: benares, india; all over puerto rico; and new jersey. and honestly the only place that i've to encounter any sort of prejudice due to complexion was in jersey. family members had teasing comments, puerto rico was brutal during school, but the garden state was the only place where i was left be.

This is something I can believe.

It's more likely that these attractive girls found someone they were attracted to, as opposed to being dumped by Indian guys because they were dark skinned, which last time I checked, is pretty much the colour of the average Indian, give or take away some shades of brown

That's precisely the ridiculousness of it all, those 'few shades of brown' make ALL the difference in India. I can completely believe that these girls were given less than flattering attention by some Indian guys (and their families) because of skin color. In India, I definitely know some really beautiful women who have hard time finding guys coz of dark skin.

Thanks for the very feminist take, Mistress of Spices :/ Great thing to have gender equality at last, innit? :D

I can completely believe that these girls were given less than flattering attention by some Indian guys (and their families) because of skin color. In India, I definitely know some really beautiful women who have hard time finding guys coz of dark skin.

Perhaps because a lot of marriages in India are arranged, and so these superficial things are given predominance betwen families. In Europe, lighter skin and being chubby were signs of beauty in the middle ages, because rich people stayed indoors and had food to eat. Of course, in our age, most people work indoors, and rich people can afford holidays and get tanned. And they can afford healthy food, instead of McDonald's. So, tanned and skinny is good. Pale skin and fat is bad.

I guess it is the other way around in India.

That's precisely the ridiculousness of it all, those 'few shades of brown' make ALL the difference in India.

Absolutely. And don't forget Naipaul's report (in his book "The Middle Passage") on the very subtle gradations of skin-color in the West Indies: "white, fusty, musty, dusty, tea, coffee, cocoa, light black, dark black."

The human intelligence (I use the noun as neutrally as possible) is able to make extremely fine distinctions, and this is an ability that's not restricted to India.

In response to http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004075.html#comment110459 the dupatta and the gloves are also used to protect against pollution. I am not sure about the fashion aspect of it though..........

And really gorgeous dark-skinned people?(Check Heroes and Lost TV series).

Ok...if you're referring to Sendhil Ramamurthy and Navin Andrews, they are really not THAT dark. The people that have a hard time finding a husband are darker than that, or come from a family where everyone else is fairer so the expectations are different. Personally I don't know anyone who had a hard time finding a husband but I have heard it happens.

I dont see how that reasoning applies to indians or africans. Desis are dark even where the sun don't shine.

Not true...I am quite a different color where they sun don't shine. "Wheatish" under my clothes, "dark" outside them. So the amount of sun exposure I get does affect how dark I am. Why do you think Indian moms are always telling their daughters to stay out of the sun?

Absolutely. And don't forget Naipaul's report (in his book "The Middle Passage") on the very subtle gradations of skin-color in the West Indies: "white, fusty, musty, dusty, tea, coffee, cocoa, light black, dark black."

I know next to nothing about the West Indies, but I think I remember a black West Indian friend talking about how things were segregated (officially or unofficially?) based on these gradations. He mentioned cricket teams in particular - something about the whites creating teams for each shade in order to pit ethnic groups against each other, and how that influenced his (negative) perception of the South Asians growing up.

I was always under the impression it is mainly the mothers, sisters, and aunties who ask their daughters/sisters/nieces not to go out in the sun because they will get dark. I am not saying all the guys are good. Just, in most of the cases guys do not dare to talk about this issue.

I have been in US (LA) for 5+ years and I have always been of medium brown shade.

Every time I go back home, someone definitely gives me this line

"Hmmmm.. how come you have not become fairer after living in US for so long!! "

don't forget Naipaul's report (in his book "The Middle Passage") on the very subtle gradations of skin-color in the West Indies:"white, fusty, musty, dusty, tea, coffee, cocoa, light black, dark black."

Every time I go back home, someone definitely gives me this line "Hmmmm.. how come you have not become fairer after living in US for so long!! "

Sadly I have faced this response more often than I care to remember and it has never made any sense to me. I tell my loving, tact-challenged rellies that Houston has almost the same climate as Kolkata (sic).

Sadly I have faced this response more often than I care to remember and it has never made any sense to me. I tell my loving, tact-challenged rellies that Houston has almost the same climate as Kolkata (sic).

200 1bs of squats designed to bulk up my ridiculosly skinny indian legs.

u rock

By the way this reminds me.. I remember in my teenage years, the best way to earn some brownie points with a dusky babe was to profess utmost admiration for the beauty of Kajol.
Wonder who has taken her place as brownine points earner these days!

I say "I know!!! I'm very disappointed myself.". I usually have no way to tell if they get the sarcasm.

the best way to earn some brownie points with a dusky babe was to profess utmost admiration for the beauty of Kajol

Do you mean dusky or dusty? According to our Naipaul officionados this is an important difference and could affect my advice to you. In general, I would avoid dusty babes.

Every time I go back home, someone definitely gives me this line "Hmmmm.. how come you have not become fairer after living in US for so long!!

That is so typically dumb.

Sadly I have faced this response more often than I care to remember and it has never made any sense to me. I tell my loving, tact-challenged rellies that Houston has almost the same climate as Kolkata (sic).

You feed their ignorance with this response. As if living in New York would have made you fairer.

Do you mean dusky or dusty? According to our Naipaul officionados this is an important difference and could affect my advice to you. In general, I would avoid dusty babes.

Definitely dusky , not dusty (or maybe only when the dustiness is mutually induced :D )

By the way do u mean "officionados" or "afficionados" ;)

I remember in my teenage years, the best way to earn some brownie points with a dusky babe was to profess utmost admiration for the beauty of Kajol. Wonder who has taken her place as brownine points earner these days!

Kajol is much fairer than your average indian. This is all so very silly.

I don't buy this. It's more likely that these attractive girls found someone they were attracted to, as opposed to being dumped by Indian guys because they were dark skinned, which last time I checked, is pretty much the colour of the average Indian, give or take away some shades of brown. Which by the way, the average white does not really care. Please everyone. Haven't you seen really ugly women and men who are light-skinned? And really gorgeous dark-skinned people? (Check Heroes and Lost TV series). So, you are either attractive or you aren't. Changing your skin colour doesn't do much in the West, and even in India. Except of course, if you want to get into Bollywood.

I have been in US (LA) for 5+ years and I have always been of medium brown shade.

Every time I go back home, someone definitely gives me this line

"Hmmmm.. how come you have not become fairer after living in US for so long!! "

Cisco- what Manu says about the chances of meeting a nice brown boy being diminished for dark-skinned Indian women makes sense to me. Even in this day and age, men are still (for the most part) approaching and initiating the contact in the mating game. If darker-skinned Indian women are approached by less Indian men vs. lighter-skinned Indian women, then the chances of a dark-skinned Indian woman meeting a "nice brown boy" are, indeed, diminished. Yes, they may end up with someone non-Indian because they happened to find someone they were attracted to who was non-Indian, but with less Indian guys around them, simple statistics tells us it is more probable they will end up with a non-Indian. I've seen this with darker-skinned friends of mine, both men and women, and it's a sad reality.

As if living in New York would have made you fairer.

Ok, I agree it is stupid for people to ask why you're not fairer after living in the US, but it's not totally unreasonable to think it might happen. My family always comments on how much fairer I am when I go back to India and while it might be annoying, it's true. Both my parents and I are several shades lighter than when we first moved here, and I've seen it with my cousins who grew up in India and came here for grad school/jobs. I'm quite dark regardless (darker than Parminder Nagra who someone described on another thread as being on the "dark end of the spectrum". Also, as an aside, try being a small desi ER doctor with long hair and see how many times you get told you look like her) but am definitely darker after either a week in Mexico on the beach, or 10+ years living in India. People can change color overall. Probably not everyone does. And THAT's why, as I said in an earlier post on this thread, Indian moms tell their kids not to go out in the sun. My mom didn't tell me that, so I do, so I know I can change color quite dramatically, despite being dark already. So be annoyed at people who comment on how fair you did or didn't get while living in the US, but they're rude, not factually incorrect.

but with less Indian guys around them, simple statistics tells us it is more probable they will end up with a non-Indian. I've seen this with darker-skinned friends of mine, both men and women, and it's a sad reality.

Great. So other Indians see me with my husband and think, she married him because she was too dark to get an Indian guy? This is absurd. Sure, there might be guys who thought I wasn't good looking enough because I was too brown, but I guarantee for every one of those there was one that thought I was cute. I didn't marry my white husband because I couldn't find an Indian boy who liked me, or because I don't like Indian boys. I married him because I love him and he just happens to not be Indian. I've dated Indian guys; I've been attracted to Indian guys; I've even been in love with Indian guys. I DID NOT marry a white guy because I was forced to because of my skin color, and it's insulting to everyone in this equation to suggest that that this is a common occurence, or as you put it ,a "sad reality". Did any of those people actually admit to you that that's why they married a white guy? I seriously doubt it. I never felt like I couldn't marry an Indian guy if that's what I wanted.

What's so sad about it anyway? It's not like 1 billion desis are suddenly going to melt into oblivion because I or anyone else married a white guy.

I am willing to admit that being dark could make an arranged marriage harder, but that's because it's more than just finding a mutual attraction. I remember a funny line from Missisipi Masala..."you can be dark and have money, you can be fair and have no money, but you can't be dark and have no money and expect to marry Hari Patel" or something to that effect...
It's about the status of having a fair wife, daughter in law, or grandchildren; I admit there are status issues involved in "love marriages" too, but usually more subtle. And I don't think the desi women who might be having a hard time finding an arranged match are then driven to marry white boys...it just seems rather far fetched.

desishiksa- I believe you've setup a straw-man argument in post 74. In no way am I saying every dark-skinned woman who ends up with a non-Indian man did so because she wasn't approached by enough Indian men. As I said in my post "Yes, [dark-skinned Indian women] may end up with someone non-Indian because they happened to find someone they were attracted to who was non-Indian, but with less Indian guys around them, simple statistics tells us it is more probable they will end up with a non-Indian." Maybe I should clarify this statement: it is more probable they will end up with a non-Indian vs. fair-skinned Indian women ending up with a non-Indian.

From what I've seen / heard from many Indian women, the pool of Indian men to choose from is smaller for dark skinned Indian women vs. light skinned Indian women. One cannot deny that this bias exists in the Indian and Indian American communities. I've heard the complaint from many dark skinned Indian women that they are often "passed over" for their lighter skinned friends by Indian men, whereas non-Indian men don't care about their skin color or even find it "exotic". The end result being that the light skinned Indian women have more options when it comes to Indian men, whereas the dark skinned Indian women have less options when it comes to Indian men. This isn't to say that either group can't find true love with an Indian or non-Indian man. I say it is a "sad reality" because I think it is sad that this color bias exists.

Great. So other Indians see me with my husband and think, she married him because she was too dark to get an Indian guy? This is absurd. Sure, there might be guys who thought I wasn't good looking enough because I was too brown, but I guarantee for every one of those there was one that thought I was cute. I didn't marry my white husband because I couldn't find an Indian boy who liked me, or because I don't like Indian boys. I married him because I love him and he just happens to not be Indian. I've dated Indian guys; I've been attracted to Indian guys; I've even been in love with Indian guys. I DID NOT marry a white guy because I was forced to because of my skin color, and it's insulting to everyone in this equation to suggest that that this is a common occurence, or as you put it ,a "sad reality". Did any of those people actually admit to you that that's why they married a white guy? I seriously doubt it. I never felt like I couldn't marry an Indian guy if that's what I wanted.

Oops... looks like he beat me to it

My family always comments on how much fairer I am when I go back to India and while it might be annoying, it's true

Thats BS. Living in America does not make desis "much fairer".

The end result being that the light skinned Indian women have more options when it comes to Indian men, whereas the dark skinned Indian women have less options when it comes to Indian men.

Very true. Which is why, as you point out, the darker-skinned desi women are much better off if they are outside India, and are open to relationships with non-desi men.

Very true. Which is why, as you point out, the darker-skinned desi women are much better off if they are outside India, and are open to relationships with non-desi men.

V true. Some brown guys overseas still have the same colour complex when it comes to women of their own ethnicity at the end of the day, although I have to say a lot of them don't too (and the non-prejudiced ones are usually hotter ;)...

I have to say a lot of them don't too (and the non-prejudiced ones are usually hotter ;)

True enough. The non-prejudiced ones are usually those who don't have to or care to think about "improving" their family genetics by marrying someone fairer.

Here's a more "scientific" version of the question (Razib??!!!). I've been discussing a lot of eugenics-related issues with friends lately, so these keep popping into my mind. Is it somehow ingrained in human beings to prefer the fairest skin possible in a particular environment?

Here's what I mean, from the Darwinian POV: Fair skin has a certain evolutionary disadvantage (burns easier, cannot withstand sun), so would be a negative trait to have in sunny tropical places. However, in less sunny places like Europe, it confers no particular advantage that I can think of. So the only way for a fair-skinned race to develop would be if fair skin was repeatedly sexually selected for, over a long period of time. This selection continued until a point was reached where the skin is as fair as possible, but can still withstand the sun in that region.

I just pulled that argument out of my a$$. It does make sense to me, but feel free to counter it.

ps: The above argument works only under the assumption that the 'original' human beings who moved out of Africa were dark-skinned.

My mom diligently downed portions of Saffron and Milk every day of her pregnancy. Thank you mom for all this fairness, else I'd have been dark like you and dad.

Technophobicgeek, part of the reason people in cold, northern climes are fair is because a lot of vitamin d is actually made by the skin (though obviously some comes in the diet)...and you need a certain amount of sunlight for that. If you live in a cold clime, with limited sunshine, then it's advantageous to have less pigment (so the necessary vitamin d synthesis can take place more easily).

Thanks Amitabh, I think you just saved my remaining faith in humanity :)

Also, as an aside, try being a small desi ER doctor with long hair and see how many times you get told you look like her

Just tell people that the TV character is based on you. Don't forget to mention the time you treated the show's director and he got the idea...

Thats BS. Living in America does not make desis "much fairer".

Are you calling me a liar?
Anyway, I'm not speaking for "desis" in general, only pointing out that I, a desi, am significantly lighter. It's logical. No tropical sun, less sun because I'm often indoors, travel by car...decreased melanin production.

I think living in America does make you darker. More outdoor activities, less pollution therefore more sun's rays getting through. Sun doesn't have to be tropical to get the melanin going. Plus we have less of a culture of sun avoidance here so we are less likely to cover up when we are out in the sun. Not necessarily a good thing of course given the health issues of sun exposure.

Yes, they may end up with someone non-Indian because they happened to find someone they were attracted to who was non-Indian, but with less Indian guys around them, simple statistics tells us it is more probable they will end up with a non-Indian.

The reason there are less Indian guys is simply because if you live in the West, and live in a diverse community, you are more likely to meet non-Indians than Indians. And if you are second/third-generation, you will feel more connection with non-Indians than with FOB Indians. Does that shock you?

Not every Indian is obsessed with skin colour, and if you judge someone by superficial traits, then that person is better off without you. We are natural tanned, ok? Let's move on, and for those that carry their mother's sun phobia, please don't teach that to your kids. Enjoy the sun and the beach. And be proud when you go to India.

well said, Cisco, and I hope that's the final word on the matter.

The reason there are less Indian guys is simply because if you live in the West, and live in a diverse community, you are more likely to meet non-Indians than Indians. And if you are second/third-generation, you will feel more connection with non-Indians than with FOB Indians. Does that shock you?

Cisco- it shocks me that you totally missed my point when I thought it was clear as day, yes. My statement about "less Indian guys" was comparing the number of Indian guys in the dating pool of dark-skinned vs. light-skinned Indian women. Both groups are in the West, both groups live in a diverse community. I assume you do not believe the color bias exists among Indian Americans? If so, I disagree.

Thats BS. Living in America does not make desis "much fairer".

On the contrary, a friend of mine in gradshcool had this theory that ABDs had a slightly darker complexion than IBDs. None of his explainations made any sense to me..but a couple of times I too noticed this during diwali night/garba etc. Gujarati and Punjabi ABD girls have a slighty darker complexion than their counterparts in India (city dwellers).

This is just an observation.

Gujarati and Punjabi ABD girls have a slighty darker complexion than their counterparts in India (city dwellers).

Its just the clean crisp air of the cities back home. Just kidding !!!

brown_fob,
The reason you have noticed what you have noticed is that ABD desi girls are more likely to be wearing makeup and in the US women can get makeup that matches their skin. In India makeup used to be a layer of white talcum powder. Even those who wear modern makeup in India tend to chose a much lighter shade than their own skin tone, due to obvious reasons. So these could be the contributing factor.

The reason you have noticed what you have noticed is that ABD desi girls are more likely to be wearing makeup and in the US women can get makeup that matches their skin. In India makeup used to be a layer of white talcum powder. Even those who wear modern makeup in India tend to chose a much lighter shade than their own skin tone, due to obvious reasons. So these could be the contributing factor.

It is even much simpler. Your baseline observation. In white-dominated country, every brown looks darker. In brown-dominated country, even slighter lighter shades are noticed by you and others. You eye, and brain resets to the majority hue.

People are BSing like nobodies business, I do not know any darker-skinned women in India who did not get married in India due to complexion [I spend and have spent a lot of time in India]. Sure, there is a mark down that is made up by being hot, dowry, charming personality, etc. It is like anything in life, there is a pecking order that changes from time to time. Tell me a society that does not have a pecking order.

People who are going ga-ga about color neutral west is. Three words: 1) miscenegation laws till 70s, 2) One drop rule (or brown bag test), and last but least 3) Opening lines of Snow White story. I have two degrees from Amreeka, and I am not kidding the stuff I have heard about skin-color obsession from the majority during luch hour gossip and parties (obviously behind your back).

So guys, enjoy and chill. I'll just call Bipasha Basu, sweet talk her, and tell her about the comments here @ SM.

On the contrary, a friend of mine in gradshcool had this theory that ABDs had a slightly darker complexion than IBDs. None of his explainations made any sense to me..but a couple of times I too noticed this during diwali night/garba etc. Gujarati and Punjabi ABD girls have a slighty darker complexion than their counterparts in India (city dwellers).

I couldn't deal with most of what this thread ended up being but I think this one tops it all. Just when you think you've heard it all brown_fob what the? This has got to be the most ridiculous notion EVER!!

As for people asking why someone hasn't gotten fair after living in the US there is some truth to the matter. Skin naturally improves in the west, better air/water, better range of products available, foods whatever it is. You see the difference in Indians in the first year they come to the US, especially adolescents. Their skin improves if they were prone to acne and their face brightenes. No it doesn't get lighter but I've seen this with so many people including me when I first moved here.

It is even much simpler. Your baseline observation. In white-dominated country, every brown looks darker. In brown-dominated country, even slighter lighter shades are noticed by you and others. You eye, and brain resets to the majority hue.

People are BSing like nobodies business, I do not know any darker-skinned women in India who did not get married in India due to complexion [I spend and have spent a lot of time in India]. Sure, there is a mark down that is made up by being hot, dowry, charming personality, etc. It is like anything in life, there is a pecking order that changes from time to time. Tell me a society that does not have a pecking order.

KT you da man!! Tell it like it is.

BTW one of my good friend's mother was on the phone with someone from India. They were looking for a bride for my friend's brother. She was standing in her own daughters house with her son in law a few feet away and I swear to god this is exactly what she said (in gujarati) "I want someone extremely fair and tall and preferably light eyed. I don't want someone dark like Sarika (my friend name changed) I want a pretty girl for my son."

I swear I couldn't even make up that creativity if I tried and wouldn't have believed half of it if I hadn't heard it myself. Apparently later there was a big row and the son in law then asked the dear mother in law that had insulted her own daughter in front of her husband to kindly take her hiney back to her house.

Read White Mughal, there is a passage in early part of the book, where a very high British official of East India Company wrote a letter to Warren Hastings. It goes something like that:

He decides his fairer skinned Anglo-Indian children to immigrate to England, and one of them is darker skinned that will stay in India. You know what that meant..........a life of lowly clerk or train driver.

You can see, how much I am in love with the mighty West (or enlightened desis living in West) that will free us of all prejudices.

I believe your conversation, JOAT but I can heard similar thing from mothers of other ethnicity too.

You can see, how much I am in love with the mighty West (or enlightened desis living in West) that will free us of all prejudices.

:)

Anthropologist, primatologist, evolutionary biologist and paleontologist, Nina G. Jablonski's view on why humans have varying skin color

Q. In a nutshell, what has your research shown about why humans have varying skin colors?

A. That it’s not about race — it’s about sun and about how close our ancestors lived to the Equator. Skin color is what regulates our body’s reaction to the sun and its rays. Dark skin evolved to protect the body from excessive sun rays. Light skin evolved when people migrated away from the Equator and needed to make vitamin D in their skin. To do that, they had to lose pigment. Repeatedly over history, many people moved dark to light and light to dark. That shows that color is not a permanent trait.

Joat:

I couldn't deal with most of what this thread ended up being but I think this one tops it all. Just when you think you've heard it all brown_fob what the? This has got to be the most ridiculous notion EVER!!

First of all, it was more of an observation than a notion.
People have been commenting on skin colors all through this thread....and my comment wasn't anything outrageous or anything.

This has got to be the most ridiculous notion EVER!!

Nopes...that prize goes to someone on this site who commented

But the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting. I hate to make this about race but after 20 years of living here I reserve the right to say this.

Kush wrote:

In white-dominated country, every brown looks darker. In brown-dominated country, even slighter lighter shades are noticed by you and others. You eye, and brain resets to the majority hue.