Police inaction and brutality aren't unique to Delhi, as those of us in NYC know well. Two blocks from where I live, for instance, an old gentleman who ran a pharmacy with his wife, and had enjoyed a steady flow of prestigious customers on Madison Avenue for decades, was murdered one day while minding the store alone, and no matter what his wife did, she couldn't get a police investigation going vigorously enough to get an answer. I don't think this made the NY Times, never mind the Hindustan Times. I'm glad the Noida case was reported in Delhi, but maybe it's worth considering whether this international coverage is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Nest we'll have NYPD training the Delhi police...

maybe it's worth considering whether this international coverage is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Nest we'll have NYPD training the Delhi police...

You've got to be kidding me. A case like this is significant and deserves global coverage. You think Jeffrey Dahmer -- to give one example of a US serial murderer who benefited from police incompetence -- wasn't written about worldwide? What about the Juarez murders I mentioned in the post -- should those not be reported by the New York Times either? Or maybe we shouldn't write about ethnic conflict in Darfur because we have racist violence here? Come on. This is humankind we're talking about.

Outrage for you and me is "Chhoti moti ghatna" (minor thing) to UP minister / Mulayam's brother. Google official reactions to put your blood on boil.

Absolutely agree, indeed this is worse than Dahmer, and it deserves coverage, but not this slant or headline: "Police Ignore Serial Killings in Delhi Slum, Exposing Unequal Justice for India’s Poor." The headline is sometimes all that people read and although the text opens up the possibility that there are responsible Indian citizens addressing this case and properly functioning media covering the story, this headline sets the tone as if for a political vendetta. Justice is unequal for lots of people here as well, including single women, people of color, poor people generally, and others I'm sure I can't name. I don't know that Amadou Diallo, or Jeffrey Dahmer for that matter, got much coverage in Indian media.

The NOIDA police are one of the worst! And I say that from personal experience after a burglary at our home. One of the key reasons we moved out of NOIDA was because of how crime-ridden the place was getting and how bad the police there is.

This is just an extreme example of how the poor are denied access to justice the world over.

Justice is unequal for lots of people here as well, including single women, people of color, poor people generally, and others I'm sure I can't name. I don't know that Amadou Diallo, or Jeffrey Dahmer for that matter, got much coverage in Indian media.

Amrita- I first had a negative reaction to this article...but I have to accept that it is true. Surely there are inequities in the US (e.g. Tulia, Dialo)but it does not compare with the callousness that is de rigueur in dealing with the poor in Indian police stations. You'll note from my few previous posts that I am not an India basher, it's just hard to ignore the rot when it's so obvious.

I was in NOIDA the day that this article broke and the only attention it got in the newspaper was a small clip on the front page (I can't recall what newspaper it was, though I do clearly remeber thinking to myself how horrible it was). I think its great that international medica is covering this story in such a sensationalistic scope. At the very least it has forced the Indian government to face the greater issues at hand (foremost of which is police incompetence).

I think the reason some of you are not outraged (in fact, some are being unnecessarily defensive) is because you are learning of this story now, via Siddhartha's post. But if you have Indian satellite tv, and have been following this story on the news, and seeing the video footage they've been showing, you'd be absolutely disgusted...mostly at Pandher and his servant, but also the police. I actually mentioned this story on the other thread about the woman who was molested in Mumbai on New Year's, and was sort of surprised no one else commented on it there.

Hi louiecypher,

Content is not the biggest problem; it's the spin that comes with it. I don't say that the facts of the matter as reported are untrue-- in fact one of the things that I find annoying is that the source was clearly Indian media (This is not an original piece of investigative reporting from the NYT correspondent in Delhi), yet that didn't prevent the NY TImes from putting it out editorially that this is a peculiarly Indian, nationwide, pervasive societal problem. Agree with Sriram, selective justice is everywhere. The NY Times, in its slantednss, tends to stir up a lot of trouble, see today's CounterPunch.

Surely there are inequities in the US (e.g. Tulia, Dialo)but it does not compare with the callousness that is de rigueur in dealing with the poor in Indian police stations.

You can't assume from a male upper middle class perspective that certain discriminatory situations here do not compare. I'm deducing that you are primed not to examine them in the same light, and I totally blame exactly this sort of editorial slant for that.

In the 60s Raman Raghav was linked with dozens of serial murders in Mumbai. This case may equal or exceed that body count.

You can't assume from a male upper middle class perspective that certain discriminatory situations here do not compare. I'm deducing that you are primed not to examine them in the same light, and I totally blame exactly this sort of editorial slant for that.

Amrita- Identify a recent case where a prolific serial killer operating in the African-American community escaped detection because the police said "You shiftless people are always running off". My guess is that you would take issue with the depiction of India as a poor country because there are poor people in the US. It's a question of degree. Yes I am upper middle class, but you know nothing of where I came from. You imagine me as a bubble boy whose opinion of the world is formed by reading the NYT wearing a gold rimmed monocle, but I won't stoop to speculating that you are from a family of bureaucrats that has developed a well stocked repertoire of misdirection to be used at cocktail parties when some foreigner asks embarassing questions about the state of civil institutions in India. That would be very wrong and would not advance the discussion

People living in GLASS HOUSES.....

What a tragic, disturbing story!

Looks like Moninder's maid Maya is suspected of supplying some of the children
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/mystery-of-moninders-elusive-maid/30594-3.html?xml

The Noida police dept. website has all the bells and whistles. I was shocked to find pictures of unidentified dead bodies. Is this common practice?

I usually just read HT online, and there have been a lot of articles about the Noida missing children, kidnappings and serial killings for months, which have examined many aspects of the case as it developed, including Pandher's political connections, so it hardly needs NY Times coverage, let alone sensationalized yet skimpy coverage to make a difference.

Siddhartha, the Noida murders have been sitting heavy on my consciousness for over a week now.

Actually, in a weird way they have been heavy on my *conscience* as well--because aren’t children everywhere *our* collective responsibility? And haven't these children been failed, in the most horrible way possible, by us?

For the most part these were really young children who were working class, many of them, in fact, actually worked. Then there are these grown up men who systematically hurt, abused, tortured, and killed them. Whether for sexual or financial gain is not completely known at this point. I have been going over these facts over and over again, and then the events still don’t make sense. Someone please explain?

So Amrita, in theory, I agree with you about Western gaze; however, for the moment, my outrage is focused elsewhere.

Any ideas or news on activism inspired by the murders?

Ah no, louiscypher, I am not the offspring of a govt. bureaucrat-- my family has had plenty of beef with corrupt state officials in India interfering with industrial development-- but you made it easy to guess you're an upper middle class male.

Amrita- Identify a recent case where a prolific serial killer operating in the African-American community escaped detection because the police said "You shiftless people are always running off". My guess is that you would take issue with the depiction of India as a poor country because there are poor people in the US. It's a question of degree

Wrong metaphor: This is the story of a well-connected, privileged person killing poor kids and going undetected, more the sort of thing Dominick Dunne covers in the U.S., though not the HT in its coverage of the U.S. Think Michael Skakel, even if his victim wasn't exactly poor, just relatively less well-connected. And no, this has nothing to do with India being a poor country or the U.S. being a rich country -- that's your thinking, not mine.

Even here in CA, some sailor from Newport Beach was drifting off Chilean coast. The same week a 14 yo black girl was killed by Latino gang members in South L.A. Guess which story had a photo spread in the LAT?

...and how about the Briton who was found hanging from a tree outside Bombay, when he was supposed to be in Goa?
It seems like a poor family, whose door the victim reported knocked on, is being scape goated. Supposedly the men thought he was following/molesting the woman in the house. The Briton's mother was in Bombay and believes the men are not the perpetrators. Let's see if this investigation goes anywhere.

Hi sid, you touched on the servant/master relationship, i dont know if you guys remember but the same kind of thing happened a few years ago in Lahore, Pakistan. Where mr Javed Iqbal killed street children, mainly boys after engageing in sexual intercourse with them (i cant remember the exact number but it may have exceed the number in the Noida case). Iqbal disposed of the bodies by cutting them up and dumping them in barrels of acid. He too had assistance from servants and was found mudered in his jail cell alongside his servants (officially it was deemed suicide but doesnt seem that way at all). I found this link on him
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/javed_iqbal/1.html
but theres some stuff in wiki as well...

-nv-

This is a second post in two weeks where the inefficiency of the Indian police has been discussed (the first being the Mumbai New year molestation). I wanted to say this on that post but the discussion kinda degenerated into blaming arranged marriages (!!), so I gave up. Before that happens on this thread...

The police in inefficient - everywhere in the world. Because it's parent, the Government is inefficient everywhere. There is no incentive for the Government to do things right, unless its ass is on fire (people protesting does not count).

In the previous(NewYear)post people said how bad the Mumbai police were in protecting the woman who was being molested. How come the IT superpower cannot give proper security to its citizens at a New Year bash? Look at other places in the world. How come this does not happen in NewYork's Times Square? Look how efficient the NY city cops are.

Well, they are efficient because an incident like this will toast the city's reputation. A hundred million east coast folks time their NewYear countdown by the big apple falling. Many celebreties are invited. This is a showcase for NY city, which rakes in tens of millions in revenues (Hotel rooms run upto a Thousand a night). Big money is at stake here. As for the celebration in Mumbai where the woman was molested - it was a two-bit event which was not even on TV. Mumbai does not showcase that event - it would be embarassing. So why would there be good police protection to revellers? Will the government's ass get fried? Will it lose crores in revenues?

Same issue here. Why should Noida's police care when poor kids are molested and butchered? What will happen if they don't? Nothing. There are no consequences. On the other hand, if there are victims from the upper-crust of Noida - the same police will behave like Scotland Yard and catch the guilty in no time. Because otherwise their ass will be on fire.

But, you say, the police should not be this way. They should treat all crimes equally. White or Brown. Rich or Poor. All citizens are equal before the law. All are human beings.

Jackshit. When you're done imagining how the world should be, rather than how it is or will be, let's talk.

This is why a person must be on guard for one's self and loved ones all the time. If you go to the countryside in India, you will see hardly any cops around. You could travel twenty miles and not see a police station. In fact, even in the outlying neighbourhoods of India's B cities (Kanpur, Madurai etc), you could walk for hours without ever seeing a cop. That's because, much of India polices itself based on time-tested principles and methods. Don't speak to anyone you don't know. Don't trust anyone. Let your loved ones know where you are. Don't go anywhere you are not invited by someone you know. Children should be with an adult at all times. Network of adults watch each other's kids across villages. Every person's behaviour is monitored closely by default.

If you see, it's only in India's mega cities that such incidents happen. Where there is anonymity and privacy and where it's considered rude to ask personal questions. Where the people are Westernised but lack the protective infrastructure of the West. Where they have NewYear's drunken bash like America, but they don't have America's 911 response system. Where they have access to American porn, but don't have the outlets like Americans do.

Please. Don't blame the cops. How will they solve crime involving people who don't even have a birth certificate, much less a DNA sample or a fingerprint? How will they work on such cases when most of their time is spent guarding politicians or rich weddings?

The issue is one that of a society that has forgotten its ancient traditions of protecting itself, and has "outsourced" its protection to a corrupt Government (is there any other kind?) that's inefficient.

America too is unfortunately going the same route. The Founding Fathers envisioned a country where the citizenry protected itself and did not rely on the Government. Hence their sacred right to carry guns. When people went to the market, they had a gun. When they went to Church, they carried a piece. When they went to a wedding dance, they had a small pistol. They protected themselves and their loved ones. Crime was exceedingly low. But now.. people have become a 911 society. Slowly they too have "outsourced" protection to an omnipotent Government, which is slowly becoming corrupt. One major recession/depression will result in severe cutbacks in police funding - then you'll see such incidents in America on a larger scale. Only the public will be helpless because they would have forgotten to protect themselves.

M. Nam

MoorNam,

I agree with your analysis. Even though often I do not. I hope this thread does not denegerate into "blame it on arranged marriages, and benefits of dating", and similar threadbare causal analysis.

India is an incredibly chaotic country going a lot of change, with huge population. The whole infrastructure in every walk of life is very shakey. In past, people self-policed (and controlled their environments) themselves, as you said but with economic changes comes mobility, and hotch-potch.

On top of it, the poor or being at the wrong place at wrong time (like the girl in Mumbai in New Year's party in free for all celebrations) are most vulnerable. It should have not happened.

I do not see any harm (they are tangible benefits) in talking about it in media and blogs but something needs to be done. Even if the cops wanted in India, they do not even have the means to investigate cases en-masse. Currently, we can just talk, and talk.

MoorNam, if you go country side in Amreeka, in some ways people self-protect themselves here too (with guns and whatnot).

Th

is is why a person must be on guard for one's self and loved ones all the time. If you go to the countryside in India, you will see hardly any cops around. You could travel twenty miles and not see a police station. In fact, even in the outlying neighbourhoods of India's B cities (Kanpur, Madurai etc), you could walk for hours without ever seeing a cop. That's because, much of India polices itself based on time-tested principles and methods. Don't speak to anyone you don't know. Don't trust anyone. Let your loved ones know where you are. Don't go anywhere you are not invited by someone you know. Children should be with an adult at all times. Network of adults watch each other's kids across villages. Every person's behaviour is monitored closely by default.

If you see, it's only in India's mega cities that such incidents happen. Where there is anonymity and privacy and where it's considered rude to ask personal questions. Where the people are Westernised but lack the protective infrastructure of the West. Where they have NewYear's drunken bash like America, but they don't have America's 911 response system. Where they have access to American porn, but don't have the outlets like Americans do.

Two points;

1.

If you see, it's only in India's mega cities that such incidents happen.

How would you then explain robbery, rape and murder in villages, which happens quite often, including that one horrific incident which was blogged about here some time ago regarding a mother and daughter who were dragged through the village openly tied to the back of a truck and raped in front of one and all and killed? Can someone provide the link please?

2.

Where they have access to American porn, but don't have the outlets like Americans do.

In my experience of sexual harrassement in India, many of the men were married, fathers and even some grandfathers. Are you saying that even the married men of India have no outlet for their sexual fantasies? If that is the case, what is the reason for that?

The recent British Ipswich prostitute murders investigation in the UK touches on various related issues of the media, the government (in)action and the social issues involved.

How would you then explain robbery, rape and murder in villages, which happens quite often, including that one horrific incident

Would you please check out the world homicide data, and see where Colombia, South Africa, Russia, USA, UK, and India stand? I can give they might be some under-reporting in some parts of the world, but I think at the first order, the data is correct.

The question is not whether India is crime-free or not. The question is: Is the India, the bottom bit of the earth due to arranged marriages, and lack of dating?

PS: I really feel sorry for the victims of the post discussed here, and I was in India six-months ago, and probably will visit again this year, I know apathy of cops there and the vulnerability of the poor, but I also know how limted they (cops) are in their capabilities.

The question is not whether India is crime-free or not. The question is: Is the India, the bottom bit of the earth due to arranged marriages, and lack of dating?

Kush - I don't think anyone is asserting that the India is the bottom bit of the earth or that all of it's problems are due to arranged marriages. In fact, show me a quote asserting such if you can.

Kush, I don't think lack of resources is an excuse for Police in this case, at least. They failed to register a case. Clearly, this is another issue that certain quarters will try to hijack to drive home their point about the rich-poor divide in India and we'll hear about globalisation and liberalisation too, but that doesn't mean we can ignore the heavy handed police attitude when it comes to poor people. It is not just the poor that suffer, anyone without connections goes through the same fate. There has been gross dereliction of duty in the case and heads should roll, but knowing the way our system works, at best a few cops will be suspended.

Lastly, this case is not about sexual repression or fantasies, this is about a psychopath. Not everyone who does not have an outlet for fantasies goes about strangling children.

Maya, there has been a spurt of activism. That was how this grisly situation was uncovered in the first place. Because of the resulting probe, Hyderabad poice have turned up another serial killer. Sonia Gandhi has put in an appearance. Renuka Chowdhury and Brinda Karat have been on it since early on:
http://www.hindu.com/2007/01/07/stories/2007010712520100.htm
http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?aid=346206&sid=REG
How much better the BBC and London Times coverage is!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6233175.stm

Kush, I don't think lack of resources is an excuse for Police in this case, at least. They failed to register a case.

Nanda, I understand. I also in my comment (#.25), mentioned "apathy". No doubt, the social divide comes into play. Yes, heads should roll, I agree.

The way poor people are treated by cops in India is very bad, but then few weeks ago, an African American day before his wedding in NYC was stepping out from a bachelor party in an exotic dance club, and was riddled by bullets with no provocation. I am not bringing this equivalence to get Indian cops off the hook.

Sure, without connections, cops in India will not give you a second of their day. Hell, even with connections, eight years ago, my house in India was broken into and robbed in an elite campus town [My father still has a knife wound near his eye]. We have some serious connections, but what did my parents do: armed with gaurds and dog their house and the locality themselves. They knew cops would not do much.

addition: was riddled by bullets by NYPD with no provocation.

>>How would you then explain robbery, rape and murder in villages,

Robbery rarely happens in India's villages. Murders happen because of land-grabbing, water-sharing and other such reasons (masked as caste-conflict).

As for rape... There's two kinds of rape(or sexual harassment) - one to satisfy carnal desires, and another to put a person in her place so that other similiar people from her caste/race/language/religion know how to behave. Rapes of the first kind are extremely rare in rural and semi-urban India, and are becoming increasingly rampant in Mega-city India.

>>Are you saying that even (some) married men of (Urban) India have no outlet for their sexual fantasies?

Obviously not. Otherwise they would not behave that way.

>>that doesn't mean we can ignore the heavy handed police attitude when it comes to poor people. It is not just the poor that suffer, anyone without connections goes through the same fate. There has been gross dereliction of duty in the case and heads should roll, but knowing the way our system works, at best a few cops will be suspended.

Go ahead. Blame the cop - not the system. Fire him, take away the runt's livelihood. That'll fix the problem.

>.Sonia Gandhi has put in an appearance. Renuka Chowdhury and Brinda Karat have been on it since early on

Oh - this is precious. Politicans from rival parties in an election year (UP) who have an axe to grind with the ruling party (Mulayam Singh's Samajwadi) have dropped in to say Hi, and you think they are actually concerned about the victims??!!

The system folks. The system. The poor people in neo-urban India need to form a system of checks and cross-checks between themselves to avoid crime against themselves. They need to re-invent their traditional village level anti-crime network and make it work in cities for them. That'll be a long-term solution.

M. Nam

Ah no, louiscypher, I am not the offspring of a govt. bureaucrat-- my family has had plenty of beef with corrupt state officials in India interfering with industrial development-- but you made it easy to guess you're an upper middle class male.

Amrita- My regards to daddi & mummi for fighting the good fight, clearly difficulties in licenture leave you as aggrieved as the large sections of Indian society denied redress for murder/rape etc. You are quite the nancy drew...that a commenter on this blog would be Indian, male, and a person of means :-)

The thing that surprises me is all the outrage against the local government vs the actual perpetrators of the crime. When Jeffrey Dahmer was caught in Milwaukee, there was less talk about police ineptitude vs. the absolute evil that was Dahmer. There are some similarities there with the victims mostly being of African-american ethnicity. Do you remember unibomber.

I think the wrath should be focused more on criminals. There are serial killers everywhere, including USA. The only thing that keeps them going is bad policing. It exists everywhere and will be more pronounced in more impoverished places.

Oh - this is precious. Politicans from rival parties in an election year (UP) who have an axe to grind with the ruling party (Mulayam Singh's Samajwadi) have dropped in to say Hi, and you think they are actually concerned about the victims??!!
This is the truely nasty part of the whole thing. Using this absolutely heinous crime for political purpose. Mayawati wants Mulayam's resignation, but change in CM will do nothing for the victims or their families. Infact if Mayawati was the CM, the same thing would have happened. It is not as if she could magically change the culture that pervades the Police force and the country.

Moor Nam, I'm not advocating that the cops involved should be fired for an ego massage or because I have a personal grudge. The problem with police as with the bureaucracy in India is absolute lack of accountability, as everyone knows. Fixing accountability is part of fixing the system, wouldn't you agree? Why should I have any sympathy for cops who don't give a f**k about dozens of missing children? The traditional community policing you talk about is fine, but I don't see it working in metro cities. We can always talk about radical paradigm shifts and other long term solutions, but it'll be years before that kind of change can take place. It seems to me that police need to get the basics done first. Try to register an FIR for a simple road accident and you'll know what I mean (may be you already do).

Kush, I'm not surprised. As I said, the perception that law enforcement fails only the poor is nonsense. It continues to fail everyone. Those with the means just get around it and try to stay the hell out of the way.

The problem with police as with the bureaucracy in India is absolute lack of accountability, as everyone knows. Fixing accountability is part of fixing the system, wouldn't you agree? Why should I have any sympathy for cops who don't give a f**k about dozens of missing children?

There is accountability to a certain extent. The reason for not registering a case itself is because if they register then they are responsible, they have to find answers. That is why they try not to register cases of people whom they can easily bully. The higher ups are not so bad. They come up passing civil services(IPS) exams. They are not so bad.

The higher ups are not so bad.

Agreed, and that has been my personal experience. But they are a small percentage of the force and they have been unable to change the culture (not saying they haven't tried). I understand the number of challenges that police in India have to face and in quite a few states they have to deal with seperatists/insurgents/whatever with their .303's. But I refuse to accept that we should simply blame the system and move on.

Let me also say, much as I hate to say this, that "police brutality" in NY/LA is not in the same league as that in India. For many, e.g., hawkers, it is part of their everyday lives.

Oh - this is precious. Politicans from rival parties in an election year (UP) who have an axe to grind with the ruling party (Mulayam Singh's Samajwadi) have dropped in to say Hi, and you think they are actually concerned about the victims??!!

Brinda Karat's initiative, along with her party's, was about getting compensation for victims' families and allowing the proposed time bound CBI probe to go forward, which certainly falls in the political arena. Admit, it would have been pretty startling and possibly effective if Hillary had spoken up to express some concern for Sean Bell -- but might have demolished her path to 2008.

I never said you were Indian, Louie.

The way media is handling cases like serial killings and many more related
to killings ...This would certainly afect positively on Police authories ,they
would remain alert in future to be carefull and would think thrice before denying
any common man registering even FIR.

I am from NOIDA, and let me tell you, the cops here are emissaries from Hell, for want of a better expression. The whole city is basically run under the writ of Gujjar crimelords and a mafioso family called the Awanas. Whats worse is that the Gujjars have become extremely wealthy after their real estate was bought for the IT parks, and their illiterate children drive about in Toyotas and running over people. The worst thing about this place and this country is an honest, meritorious and hardworking man can never make that kind of money or live a life of dignity!

U-S-A U-S-A U-S-A.... !!

31. Robbery rarely happens in India's villages. Murders happen because of land-grabbing, water-sharing and other such reasons (masked as caste-conflict). As for rape... There's two kinds of rape(or sexual harassment) - one to satisfy carnal desires, and another to put a person in her place so that other similiar people from her caste/race/language/religion know how to behave. Rapes of the first kind are extremely rare in rural and semi-urban India, and are becoming increasingly rampant in Mega-city India.

MoorNam, robbery is not unique to big cities. A lot of my aquiantances in rural parts of the country were robbed by armed gangs. A marathi writer was recently murdered in his home (village near Pune) by one such gang. As for rape, who cares if it's type 1 or 2? The victim surely doesn't. But you may want to look up what they coyly refer to as Jalgaon Sex Scandal. The number of victims boggles the mind. Locals say there are as many victims who did not go to police. Look up the case where the rapist was murdered by his victims in Nagpur court. The details are grisly. There's another one where the rapists were from some imam's family (UP). A cursory glance at TOI will show many stories that fly in the face of your theory. Let's not fall for idyllic village vs big bad city thing.

Whats worse is that the Gujjars have become extremely wealthy after their real estate was bought for the IT parks, and their illiterate children drive about in Toyotas and running over people.

That may be true in NOIDA, but in Gurgaon and other areas going through rapid urbanisation, the original landowners were fleeced...they had no idea of the true value of their land, they sold it for what they thought was a great amount, only to see developers turn around and sell it (in the form of apartments, malls, etc) for a huge profit. Those same original landowners (mostly Jats, Yadavs) can no longer afford to live in Gurgaon, etc. From what I hear, their kids have taken to alcoholism and crime. Several have murdered their own fathers out of anger that they sold the land so cheaply. Some actually work on construction of the new buildings, on what used to be their land. Most did not invest the money they got from selling their land, they squandered it. My family bought a unit from developers too in the 90s, which is why I became aware of some of these things... I guess I have to admit that in our own small way we were part of the problem as well. Although for us and others who bought units, it was a good investment (so far at least).

Although I'm pretty sure most rural landowners have wisened up now, and will sell their land for a reasonably fair market price now. The days of developers fleecing them are hopefully over. What I talked about was mostly in the 80s/90s.

something people haven't discussed is that one of the reasons that this may have gone on for so long is that unfortunately there is no nationalized service to report missing children. that's hopefully something that may come out of this is a way for people to report missing children in some larger system that can be passed between cities.... renuka (minister of family welfare) and sonia gandhi have both brought up this issue and i hope that it continues to move forward, i know ngos like the one i work with have been hoping for such a system to be put in place, especially for use by ngos like us who care for children that may or may not be missing from a family, trafficking victims, etc.

and police in india... it's a lot like police is most post-colonial countries, confusion of power. all i know is that when my friend's dad was the dgp of UP it was a free pass for all of our friends to act however they wanted to because nothing would ever happen to them, and it was true. yikes.

noida and gurgaon are also having growing pains as cities where people got rich fast, the characterization of noida is a bit harsh, but also reflects the reality.... same with gurgaon, i mean as a woman i certainly feel safer moving around in delhi nightclubs than when i go out to noida or gurgaon to similar nightspots, and i know a lot of my girlfriends agree with me on this.

Will justice be served to the families affected by these brutal crimes? Unfortunately, no. The murders which now are all over the global media, are just the tip of the iceberg. Consider how many other children and teenagers who may have been victims of these crimes, who will never be found because their families are either too frightened or disillusioned to come forward and lodge an FIR. Consider how many more people are victims of all kinds of crimes and atrocities -- mostly perpetrated by people in positions of power (power defined by caste and income). Consider that India's basic institutions are, in the final analysis, rotten to the core. Federal, state and local governments, the police, the media -- these institutions only serve the interests of those in power. If you're middle class, poor, or were born into the wrong caste then you're sh*t out of luck my friend.

And the ultimate tragedy of all this is, over time, this will all be forgotten until the next time something equally heinous (or worse) comes to light. Until the powerless mobilize themselves politically or through economic advancement, Noida-type crimes will probably continue with or without sensationalized media scrutiny or half-hearted police investigations.

This has certainly been an enlightening discussion. Ive been following this story for a week and it's heartwrenching. What is unclear to me is how were the murders uncovered? How did it finally come back to these two?

I've been watchin this on the Indian news channel(freepreview) and dont know how it got uncovered initially but the remains were found buried in the house of the main guy. Later on they found that the servant was also involved. He lured the kids with candies and stuff. Its gut wrenching to see mothers just crying their hearts out on tv.

What is unclear to me is how were the murders uncovered? How did it finally come back to these two?

NDTV did a good job of describing the sequence of events that led to the suspects' capture... recovery of missing cell phones, retracing calls using SIM cards, etc.

Thanx for the link Timepass. Wow quite a bit of investigation to get to this point. How did they find the buried??? bags of bones/remains around the house?

This case has far too many unknowns for us to be speculating on anything. Ultimately I'm afraid what it shows is that if you're the bottom rung of the society (economically in this case), you're screwed by the law.

JOAT, more information here thanks to NDTV.

Skeletons of children found in Noida

The article says: "Police stumbled on the remains in the investigation of a missing 16-year old girl." So possibly the police found a lot more than they bargained for while looking for the 16 year old.

Full timeline of events here.

The story should be reported on at every scale day after day, because the only way to move the law fast in India is to embarass the authorities and outrage the people as much as possible, thats how the recent spate of just verdicts (jessica lal case etc) came around.

I am from NOIDA, and let me tell you, the cops here are emissaries from Hell, for want of a better expression.......The worst thing about this place and this country is an honest, meritorious and hardworking man can never make that kind of money or live a life of dignity!

U-S-A U-S-A U-S-A.... !!

The problem with police as with the bureaucracy in India is absolute lack of accountability, as everyone knows.

the perception that law enforcement fails only the poor is nonsense. It continues to fail everyone.

much as I hate to say this, that "police brutality" in NY/LA is not in the same league as that in India. For many, e.g., hawkers, it is part of their everyday lives.

Consider how many more people are victims of all kinds of crimes and atrocities -- mostly perpetrated by people in positions of power (power defined by caste and income). Consider that India's basic institutions are, in the final analysis, rotten to the core. Federal, state and local governments, the police, the media -- these institutions only serve the interests of those in power. If you're middle class, poor, or were born into the wrong caste then you're sh*t out of luck my friend.

without connections, cops in India will not give you a second of their day

The whole infrastructure in every walk of life is very shakey.

Even if the cops wanted in India, they do not even have the means to investigate cases en-masse. Currently, we can just talk, and talk.

all i know is that when my friend's dad was the dgp of UP it was a free pass for all of our friends to act however they wanted to because nothing would ever happen to them, and it was true. yikes.

Shouldn't a nation that is so inexcusably unable or unwilling to enforce its laws be considered a failed state?

India has failed its citizens in practically every way conceivable: from the abysmal policing and justice system, to its criminal inability to provide the basic necessities of life such as clean drinking water, sanitation, sufficient food etc, to its unwillingness to end the abomination of child slave labor which victimizes 10s of millions of little indian children.

Perhaps one way to stem the rot is to strictly implement caste/communal based reservations in the police, judiciary, bureaucracy and yes even the media. That would be a way to ensure some semblance of checks, balances and accountability. For the rule of law is not being enforced from the top.

The Founding Fathers envisioned a country where the citizenry protected itself and did not rely on the Government. Hence their sacred right to carry guns. When people went to the market, they had a gun

Lets not rewrite history :)

Those same original landowners (mostly Jats, Yadavs) can no longer afford to live in Gurgaon, etc. From what I hear, their kids have taken to alcoholism and crime. Several have murdered their own fathers out of anger that they sold the land so cheaply.

Thats hardly a justification for killing your Pa. But then the Gujjar practice 'killing' with knife like implements on their cattle what do you expect? My point is nobody should get extraordinarily wealthy without education or accountability. The Jat, Gujjar, Ahirs have an inclination towards resolving disputes through violence. Not necessarily a fault of theirs, since they have had to deal with invaders for centuries, but it does make sure their is little account for the law within their consciousness. Considering that capitalist society is a pyramid anyway, if the developers fleece them, it wouldn't make a difference to the base if the tips rises higher. But if you give uneducated, rural folk million an acre, its asking for trouble. Besides a lot of these big landowners have been chaudharies and upper-strata within their own communities, so if after centuries of sitting easy on a piece of ancestral land it must be converted into some modern infrastructure - they couldn't really ask for ceiling prices

My point is nobody should get extraordinarily wealthy without education or accountability.

But if you give uneducated, rural folk million an acre, its asking for trouble.

they couldn't really ask for ceiling prices

I disagree with all the above statements. Some people happen to be born into land-owning families. That's their good luck (although it could be due to multiple historical circumstances that they own that land). If due to various market factors, they find they're sitting on a goldmine, why shouldn't they cash out to the fullest extent possible? Once having done so, on what basis should they restrain themselves from living the lifestyle that accompanies that wealth? Just to please you? I do agree that for their own children and grandchildren's sake, they should invest the money rather than squander it (that's where lack of education combined with relatively limited investment opportunities in India comes in), and they should pursue education (which quite a few families have done). I agree quite a lot of them have behavioral problems, which in part may stem from their cultural background (keep in mind that ALL Indians had to deal with invaders, not all Indians had the guts to actually fight them like the groups you mention did). But bottom line, you can't begrudge them their wealth...unless you have a problem with the concept of private property, free markets, and capitalism. By the way, I'm not saying that land reform would be a bad thing, or that it's necessarily FAIR that certain groups own land and others don't.

India is a falied state, or rather the 'State' that only works well for the rich and powerful. It does not work for the low to middle class families. Forget about the poor, their survival is marred by atrocities, rapes, exploitation which has become 'non-news' for the country. Who cares if children are getting killed, who cares if a college student is raped, who cares if a students or farmers commit suicides, these are stories which are printed on page 14 of a newspaper, after the news of Ashwarya's marriage rumors or Shahrukh's KBC debut. Who care's if the Police officers in all of India are corrupt or incompetent or have become a virtual private armies of politicians.

Finding dead bodies in stinking residential drainages near 'multi-crore' properties is common. According to the brother of UP Chief Minister, these are 'routine incidents'. Based on his wisdom, we should not exaggerate what has happened in Noida. In Gurgaon, the law and order is such that god forbid if a girl ventures out after dark all alone.

So this is the state of India. I was thinking of investing in real estate in Noida or Gurgaon, but I'm not going to anymore. The crime situation, and lack of basic amenities (water, electricity etc) in these areas suggest that high property prices is just speculation. The pricing bubble is going to burst big time.