January 14, 2007
On "Saving" Someone From An Arranged MarriageIssues
The New York Times Magazine published a Chandra Prasad article (thanks, Tamasha) over the weekend on her quest to save her cousin from an arranged marriage in India. Her solution? Arrange her cousin’s marriage herself. To an Indian American, that is.
Let’s do a play-by-play of Prasad’s reasoning, shall we?
Even among my many pretty female cousins in India, bright and lovely Neet stood out. Like most of my fathers relatives, she lived in Bihar, a volatile region in the northeastern part of the country, and at 23 was sheltered in ways that I, born and bred in the U.S., had trouble comprehending. Neet never left the house alone; she had never even shopped for her own saris. But she had studied rigorously, earned a masters degree in computer science and was working as a software-development intern. When I asked her by phone if Id have to start calling her Dr. Neet soon a nod to the possibility of a doctorate she laughed and said, in her tentative English, I like the sound of that!Fair enough. Sounds like Neet may risk missing out on enjoying her independence. But then Prasad writes:In truth, further educational aspirations were at odds with Neets circumstances, and when I learned last year that her parents were considering arranged-marriage options, I felt sorry for her.
A Connecticut-bred Yale grad, Im not really an advocate of arranged marriage.Right. Because as we all know, Iowa State is just bursting at the seams with arranged-marriage advocates. Then the article just gets absurd:
But it occurred to me, and to my like-minded father, that we might be able to bring Neet into the U.S. and broaden her opportunities if we could find a suitable Indian husband for her here. With her parents permission, we set to work.This is where Prasad lost me. What is it exactly that Prasad is trying to do? Is she really trying to “broaden” Neet’s opportunities? Because if that were the case, she wouldn’t try to hastily arrange her marriage, she would encourage her to apply to graduate school and continue her studies in the States.
Which begs the next question: Is Prasad really that critical of arranged marriage? Or is she just opposed to the idea of Neet marrying an Indian man? Prasad writes more on her search for Neet’s groom:
Posing as my father, who would have the authority to do so, I created an online profile for Neet on an Indian matchmaking Web site outlining everything from her hobbies to her favorite foods.…As the process went on, we began to lower our expectations. There were no movie stars among our top candidates. But we did find a few smart, progressive young men, U.S. citizens all.Neet, as it turns out, wasn’t really into the idea:
…we couldnt understand Neets lack of enthusiasm. At one point I asked her bluntly if she really wanted to be married to someone in America. Before I knew it, she had changed the subject to her favorite Bollywood stars. We finally had to accept that she didnt share our sense of urgency over her situation.Maybe Neet just didn’t want her cousin to arrange her marriage. Prasad, however, seems to realize the folly of her efforts towards the end of the piece:
Recently Ive begun to feel guilty about the attempt. I hear there are several suitors in India who are interested in Neet, but shes still in no hurry to be married, or to otherwise sort out her future. Maybe we were wrong to think that she should be, or to think that we knew what was best for her.Good for you, Neet! Enjoy your independence! Prasad, however, still doesn’t quit:
I suppose all I really wanted was to see my cousin in more secure circumstances.Arranging your cousin’s marriage to a man half a world away is a secure predicament?
Its mere chance, after all, that shes there and Im here; that she has one kind of life and I another; that opportunities I take for granted are beyond her reach. Im not saying that one situation is better than the other. But Im not denying it either.Here Prasad suggests that an arranged marriage to an Indian American man is better than an arranged marriage with an Indian man. This may be true for Prasad, but did it ever occur to her that perhaps Neet might have little in common with an Indian American man?
And did it also occur to Prasad that maybe entering an arranged marriage with an Indian man would not necessarily mean a lifetime of unhappiness for Neet? Many of my cousins in India entered arranged marriages, and yet they continue to work as doctors, engineers, and scientists. And their husbands, for that matter, are not oafish and chauvinistic pigs. They treat their wives and daughters very well — and they seem to have happier marriages compared to some of those that I’ve observed in America. (Then again, we’re Southies, so I concede that someone whose family is from Bihar may have a different perspective.) This is not to say that I think arranged marriages are 100 percent defensible; I’m just saying that they’re not necessarily oppressive, either.
That being said, I would never presume to know what’s best for my cousins in India. I couldn’t possibly know, because I hardly know them; we grew up worlds apart. But if I had a cousin who was about to make what I thought was a horrible life decision, I would probably ask her what she wants, what her goals are, and what qualities she would like in a partner. And then we would discuss whether that life decision would be a wise one in light of those goals. Putting her profile up on Shaadi.com, however, would not be my first response. (By the way, is Prasad even aware that women have the power to put their own profiles up on that site? Not that I use it. But my cousins do.)
naina on January 14, 2007 04:01 PM in Issues · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Wow.. A really well-written entry. Thanks, I enjoyed reading it. =]
great analysis. your iowa state point is spot on. anyone else think the quality of analysis and postings have steadily improved with each passing day?
ah yes, another wonderful addition to the ever-growing list of global BS
thanks for the article!
i concur with posts 1 and 2. sadly, this patronizing attitude towards "the homeland" is not all that uncommon.
whose god -- exactly! it's so frustrating to think that just because we are over *here* and they are over *there*, we know what is best for *them*
from the looks of it, indians in india are doing pretty damn well for themselves without *our* help.
how many more of ** can i use?
On arranged and "natural" marriages:
Bayesian logic says - human beings update their beliefs in the light of new information. Marriage is a process of discovery - as you see your partner in new situations, you discover a part of that person hitherto not known. Five years later - just picking a number - one might form an idea of the kind of person he/she is living with. However, with new information on the sixth year, things may change. Therefore none can say what leads to 'better' living: arranged or 'natural'. The progressive YALE grad - can discover something obnoxious about her husband in the seventh year and exercise her 'choice'. Who knows?
Now chance encounters at bars or just to be "on the look-out", which choice-theorists implicitly posit as the thing to do may not be serendipitous (and therefore, not arranged) at all; actually they may be highly deterministic. For example, the university promotes student associations, where students meet 'by chance' and fall in love; but what is serendipitous at the level of the students was actually an arrangement by the Dean (to increase student interaction). It is a question of levels.
it is also a question of supply-side economics. The phenomenon of shaadi.com may be a reflection of the newfound utility (lowers the search cost; expands the scope and reach of the search) of the internet in India. I doubt how many villagers or people from mofussil towns use shaadi.com. What does eharmony.com or match.com do anyway?
[To pose as a pessimist, what some people label as love is nothing but a cold calculation, borne out of fear to deal with uncertainty in the future - a mere convenience to go about their own ways.]
An arranged marriage is not a 'forced' marriage. It is simply a way to use the wisdom of your close relatives to your benefit. It is also a way to make sure the cooing lovebirds do not run away to some distant 'happily ever after', but that the newly-weds can also fit in the extended family. Now some individualistic societies may be jealous of such arrangements. Earnest suggestion to the all-conquering chooser: be a little humble.
Neo was bang on when he said, "Choice, the problem is choice."
This may be true for Prasad, but did it ever occur to her that perhaps Neet might have little in common with an Indian American man?
bingo. there are so many parameters which go into compatibility. life isn't perfect and i am skeptical of The Perfect One. but arranged marriages between american born brownz and overseas born brownz are often characterized by a power imbalance (i am thinking mostly male american + female non-americans), so this quest seemed really bizarre, especially when the individual fancies herself 'progressive.'
Too much of patronizing attitude in the article.
Thanks for the analysis and link.
For whom is this the case? What percentage of Indians? I know plenty of rural Indian women who were "married off" under the age of 16, some of them at 12. And that's exactly where their education stopped too. Did they have a choice? Do they even know they have a choice at that age and in such a circumstance?
I agree that for a growing number of educated Indians in India, arranged marriage is not forced or even coerced, but is simply a way to use the wisdom of relatives to personal benefit, as you state above. But there are still millions of Indians from whom this is certainly not the case.
Just because your marriage or my marriage or the marriage of most Indians in our social circles may be like that does not mean that our Nani's domestic helper back in Panipat's marriage is like that.
Let's think about those women for a change!
Extremely well-written, on a very delicate subject. Hats off!
I personally don't see what the hurry was for Chandra to marry Neet off, to an ABD or whoever. Neet is bright and already working as an intern: wouldn't it make more sense for Chandra to try to convince the family to give Neet more time, let her get a job, so she could decide for herself what she wanted. The best thing for her would probably be to move away from home for a little time, so she could develop her own view on life. Okay, maybe now I am playing Chandra's role :-D .
It is actually quite easy to start thinking like Chandra, and start imagining you know what is best for someone else. I personally am thankful to people who guided me at critical moments of my life, some of who pushed me against my will in directions I was initially reluctant about (back then I was young enough to know everything). There's a very thin line to cross here.
And Prasad was probably thinking that her cousin's arranged marriage in India would prevent her from going further with her studies/career. Why? Because for many women it does. And taking into consideration the state of Bihar, it's culture and the reputation of it's men, she may not have been entirely wrong.
So she was thinking marriage to an Indian-American might allow her cousin to be married (which her parents obviously want for her) and to pursue a career at the same time. Her intentions were good.
At the same time there is a possibility that her cousin could get the same thing in India also.
I don't know how much time anyone on this blog has spent in Bihar, but one thing is for sure, it's not the state I would want any of my cousins married in. (And yes I know there are probably thousands of sweet Bihari guys out there too, kudos to you guys! may you influence the others).
Kind of on the same topic I recently read Desi American mag article wherein the female author was complaining about Desi American men who go back to India to marry an Indian girl instead of marrying a Desi American one.
She was saying how this was a big insult to the thousands upon thousands of good Desi American women over here who have worked their whole lives to bring a balance between the two cultures and integrate the best of both in their lives.
But yet when these men go to India to find a wife it's like a slap in the face saying, "YOU'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH".
-thinking deeply-
-mmm... cake-
-trying to think-
-mmm... pav bhaji-
-errm... think! think!-
-ow! this is boring. Gives up.-
what's for dinner yaar?
I have rarely read an article that made me angry. Chandra Prasad's makes me mad, really mad. Does this woman have the faculty of logic or analysis at all?
The article makes no sense at all!! What the $&*%^ was she trying to do with her cousin's life?
Then these gems:
thooo! This is *key*. Just like many people prefer American jobs to Indian ones, some people prefer an American husband/wife. A purely economic decision. Now this Chandra Prasad woman is pretending that she's rescuing Neet from some oppression. What urgency to marry off a 23 year old? Just marrying a Ukrainian makes you progressive? Good for her that she's starting to see SOME sense.
Naina, I like your posts. Just wish the subject allowed me to leave a more pleasant comment.
To respond to Naiverealist's post:
I disagree, my friend. Sentiments like yours make me a bit angry. My mother was forced into an arranged marriage, and countless other Indian women and men face the same predicament. I'm not talking about these "assisted" marriages where you get a choice. Those are pretty common nowadays, I concede that. But let's not be too quick to defend Indian culture with theories that fly in the face of the realities of millions of Indian men and women.
Or how about the countless gay and lesbian Indian men and women who are forced into marriages for the sake of saving face? Assisted or arranged, I'm sure many of them don't want any part in the Indian institution of marriage in the first place.
I agree that parties in both arranged and non-arranged marriages can later learn things about their spouses which will affect their happiness. But at least with non-arranged marriages, there may still be a chance at reconciling these the effects of these discoveries since you married that person based on a set of traits which you YOURSELF found agreeable in the first place. You chose that person b/c you felt that you could work things out with him/her.
My mom has an advanced degree and is very smart; my father has an elementary school education and is not. They have nothing in common. Not a very wise choice, in my book.
But I don't think anyone who is looking for a non-arranged marriage would argue that they will find their future spouse by complete and utter chance; some element of self-selection has to be involved. But that's exactly the point: we CHOOSE to join such student organizations in order to meet like-minded people. There has to be an element of organization involved.
The idea of 'serendipity' you seem to be espousing is some fairy tale romance where you meet the love of your life by bumping into them on the streets of Manhattan (hello, Sex in the City!). Few people I know buy into this Hollywood idea of romance.
Look, I'm not saying your life is shot to hell if you enter an arranged marriage, but let's be careful not to deny the pain and suffering MILLIONS of Indian men and women go through b/c of arranged marriages.
And yes, this is Sepia Mutiny and we're all "go Brown" here. I'm often the first one to defend India and Indians to other people. But let's not lose sight of the fact that arranged marriage has and will continue to cause millions of silenced Indian men and women undue pain and suffering.
If you knew this women, Why didn't you stop it.
An advanced degree holder couldn't articulate what she wants to a group of family. I don't buy the forcing of a advanced degree smart woman into a marriage.
Maybe she wasn't actually THERE when they were married off? Maybe she met them later in life? And even if she was there - do you realize how difficult it is to stop a marriage from occurring? What was she supposed to do - run into the wedding hall and scream, "Nahin!" Honestly, given our obsession with marrying our girls' off, I'm pretty secure in saying that the show would have gone on.
It's pure schadenfreude, but I hope her perfect, unarranged marriage with her Ukrainian goes to pot. And that her kids go to -- heaven forfend! -- state school. Condescending hag.
Don't you ever tell me that my reality is false, little man. This was 1960s Bombay, and many women went to school just for the sake of getting a degree. She had no choice. You probably don't even know what that's like, so stop talking now before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.
Oh, are you telling me an educated, independent woman who grew up in the US couldn't think of a way to stop the marriage. I will give you a hint. It is illegal to marry an underage girl. If someone with your clout can't stop an underage marriage how are the illiterates going to stop it themselves.
There is an implication that US citizen = progressive and Indian man=oppressive. This is exactly what mail-order bride companies operating out of Russia and Ukraine say about the men there. Something on the lines of "Russian/Ukrainian men are drunkards, are irresponsible, can't hold jobs, beat women and whatnot. So, the sexy educated and untouched-by-feminism women here could use some rescuing by good men in the US".
Anamika, you're missing the point that what Chandra Prasad is attempting IS an arranged marriage (as it stands today in urban India). Not that it's a bad thing - just why is she acting like she's very enlightened (she is NOT) and is rescuing Neet? Why is this junk being published in the NYT?
Better than the arranged marriage system would be a system whereby Indian youths of both genders take courses on human psychology, male/female psychology, dating ethics, wooing techniques, romance, love, responsibility and commitment and what makes a relationship work in general. Then these same youths can be given oppurtunities to mix and mingle and choose for themselves who they want to date first. Then if the dating works out and they want to, let them marry. If not, let them move on.
It's not an arranged marriage but it's still assisted. And the best part is that both parties would be well informed (via courses).
I also think USA needs to implement similar courses in high schools and colleges.
As was discussed on another blog, the sexes need to understand more of each other's psychology.
Mistress of Spices and Anamika,
I am caught in a mellow spot between deadlines. So here's a short comment:
nani's domestic helper at Panipat (X) does not read the New York Times. Chandra's audience is other people - can be defined by any number of imagined categories - rich, westernized, diaspora, Indians in the US, Americans in the US - your pick. I do not know if her article does help X by any stretch. This phenomenon is best described by Gayatri Spivak: white men (read Yale grads) saving brown men from brown men. It is a dangerous thing if you think it through. Iraq is one example.
I can live only one life. I need to collect some data (now i am giving away my epistemological biases) - okay i need to be in the shoes of the 'other' and get the lived experience of that particular case. I need to ask people. But I will be careful not to assume that those who did not arrange their marriages have less pain or suffering.
Any confirmed bachelors here? :)
Kurma, if you've ever been to Bihar, which Chandra probably has, then you might understand a bit more her original reactions to the news that her cousin's parents were thinking about arranging her marriage there.
Oh, thanks for the tip. Last time I checked, US citizens could go to the practically LAWLESS state of Bihar and just file petitions for an injunction to stop an underage girl from getting married. It's just that easy. There's no such thing as bribery and corruption in India.
You should try learning a little bit more about Indian culture and history, MyTake. Your argument that one individual in the US can stop a marriage from taking place in village India is tantamount to me saying that all those brilliant desi i-bankers on Wall Street can solve Indian poverty.
You should really educate yourself.
Mistress of Spices, I can understand what her initial fears for her cousin Neet. So many of us go through such thoughts. What I don't understand is her solution.
I was trying to make a point. First it is BS that "I know plenty of rural Indian women who were "married off" under the age of 16, some of them at 12". Secondly I am not denying that forced marriages exist. Most important thing, the so called educated, i am better than you because I grew up in US attitude is not helping.
And another thing, there are a hell of a lot of NGOs who is preventing this kind of thing. Even if bribery and corruption are there, i am pretty sure you could afford a couple of bucks to stop an underage marriage.
Naiverealist;
Just checked out your blog! Liked that middle-east map thing.
Anyway, I have talked to plenty of people who have had just the kind of arranged marriage I mentioned above (under the age of 16). The greater percentage of them are miserable and were miserable right from their suhaag raat. Don't make me go into the details of what happens on the wedding night when a sexually un-developed 12 year old girl marries a horny 18-22 year old guy.
There's a reason why India still has no marital rape laws I guess.
Now what about the arranged marriages where neither the husband or wife is miserable, they raise kids lovingly and all live together more or less peacefully? I have seen plenty of those too. But too many of them lacked "passion", "fire", "romance". Both the husband and wife expressed "compromise", "respect", etc. But not "love", "excitement"....
The relationships were stable, yet boring and dry. To some this may be considered a "good marriage" and good example coz hey, there's no divorce. But there is no real happiness either, and deep down there is a frustration.
Before anyone accuses me of saying all arranged marriages are like this, I will add that I've seen a good amount of pretty "hot" arranged marriages too.
But one thing is for sure - a low divorce rate DOES NOT equal a high rate of happy marriages.
Let's not confuse no divorce with successful relationships.
Uh, no. I'm actually not even addressing Chandra Prasad's points. I was addressing Very Naive Realist's assertion that arranged marriages are never forced.
Speaking of...
Sorry, that was a very hard to follow paragraph. Can you maybe respond when you have more time and ability to write clearly? And yeah - people in non-arranged marriges suffer, too. I get that. But at least they chose their suffering and can get out of it. I can guarantee you that not only do millions of Indian men and women in arranged marriages suffer, but they also have no recourse to get divorce, lest they want to face the shame, stigma and abandonment of being a divorcee in Indian society.
I mean, have you ever been to a family party and looked at all the uncles and aunties and wondered, "I wonder if he's gay? Or if she's a lesbian?" Heck, your mom could be a lesbian and you don't even know it. Cases like that sadden me.
The nyt article was way too patronizing.
The arranged marriage phenomenon has taken a huge turn (for the good) after the arrival of matrimonial/match-making websites. Most of the men and women who are seeking matches through these websites are usually working professionals, living away from their families (in India or abroad). These people browse through profiles, exchange emails, phone-calls etc and finally decide to meet (if they like each other in this short span of time). The parents are usually left out of the loop while all this goes on. There is no guilt involved in all this because in most cases, the parents are the ones who made their profile..and initiated the whole process.
I personally know three such couples who met through these "shaadi" portals, dated for a couple of months and finally tied the knot. I did find this whole arrangement a bit artificial at first..but now when I think of it, it did give both of them plenty of choices and flexibility in making this important decision.
It's not bullshit.
I ask all of the female domestic helpers in all homes I go to in India about their lives.
They are very eager to open up even about personal stuff.
All that I asked thus far have been married at the age of 16 or under.
if you've ever been to Bihar, which Chandra probably has,
MoS,
Bihar is quite a lawless place, and wild-wild west.
However,
As a family unit, it is no different from any state in India. A family in Patna has same deceny, cohesivness, fairness or lack of all of them as any part of India or any part of the world.
If you notice, that Neet does not venture out on her own because her family cares her for her safety
Aanmika,
You are going over the top. My parents did not have arranged marriage. Even my aunts and uncles who are in their 70-80s, always, the girl had the veto powers.
I have friends who are from rural backgrounds, and even there girl had the final say in her marriage, sure there is societal pressure but eloping all that stuff happens more than often. The domestic help (from rural and semi-urban, basically heartland of India) my parents have/ had, there was lot of eloping, unofficial divorces, remarriages, etc.
Always. Sure, there is significant forced marriage.........where you are these "millions" of forced marriage numbers from.
I ask all of the female domestic helpers in all homes I go to in India about their lives.
You will be surprised how many times there is eloping, and remarriages. I am not kidding.
You know that abortion out of wedlock in India is a roaring business.
I'd hate judging the situation without knowing if Neet's AM was actually being forced upon her (from the sounds of it, it could go either way; Prasad didn't say much, if anything, about Neet's parents' participation in the act) but from the sounds of it, Neet wasn't overly impressed by the 'Mirkin' twigs and heavies. ;)
in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she had a favorite 'suitor' or two back home in mind for when the time was ripe for HER.
IMO, Prasad understimates her cousin. she might take Neet's 'politeness' to HER and her ABD ways as either docility, submissiveness or plain lack of spine, but I doubt the picture is all that simple. I grew up in a large joint family in India before coming here at the age of 15. my cousins and I grew up on different continents after that, connected only by letters, visits, and our love and respect for each other. I had a few 'polite' cousins, but I never made the mistake of assuming I knew ALL they thought and wanted. many, MANY indian women (urban or rural) will not clearly state what they need or want, but that does not mean they don't know what they want or how to get it.
and "usually, one call was enough"?! geez...
either way, the article set my teeth on edge. what patronizing BS! remind me not to be first in line when her novel comes out.
Naina, I've really liked your posts. hope you do so often.
These are people who know what the internet is and how to use it.
Millions don't.
And yeah, there is divorce, or rather just leaving and living separately, amongst alot of domestic workers who reached their limit of abuse. Good on them! Those women should hold their heads up high that they had the guts and self-pride to walk out!
I meant "get educated" wherever you are, not only in the US context. Please don't take my disagreement with you to mean that I think I'm superior b/c I'm American-educated; I don't. In fact, there are many US-educated desis whom I agree with on this issue. But thanks for giving us more insight into whatever issues you have.
LOL thanks for the laugh. Yeah, I can see it now: "Donate just $25 and we will storm into the underage wedding of your choice (villages included!) and ransack the place so that the wedding never happens! 99% success guarantee!"
I know a lot about these NGOs, and most of them serve as resources to girls and women who have had to escape violent and troublesome situations due to their forced marriages. Many of these girls are the victim of marital rape, etc. They don't just go and interrupt a family's wedding ceremony - NO ONE has the power to do that. You'd need a US-style "shock and awe" bombing campaign to stop an Indian wedding from happening.
And even if you were to "stop" the wedding, you'd get your ass kicked by a multitude of people, and the wedding would be held somewhere else, some other day. And that's the truth.
I agree. There is no village in India where there has been no case of eloping. People who know what they want get it somehow. There are definitely cases of forced marriages too.
awww how sweet. Single Indian women are the new Elian Gonzales.
My parents' forced marriage is a fact. The forced marriage of millions of others is a fact. No one is going over the top here, Kush.
I love how people feel the need to portray their own experiences as the experiences of the majority. I have stepped out of my shoes and conceded that MILLIONS of Indian men and women have non-arranged, love, and assisted marriages in which they live happy lives. Not denying that. SO PLEASE DO NOT DENY THE FACT THAT MILLIONS OF OTHERS HAVE NOT, ARE NOT, AND WILL NOT. Why is this so controversial?
I've met domestic workers who, after having suffered through a miserable arranged child marriage, do eventually end up leaving and marrying a man of their choice.
That does not swipe the slate clean on the fact that they were married off as a child who thought she had no right to say no to her elders in the situation.
Basically they tell me it's just "here, this is your husband. go sleep with him".
Some dress up, ceremony, feast, then fish in your legs - their words, not mine.
Still, I applaud all those net savvy Indian youths who are finding love electronically.
Maybe they can help the children or grandchildren of their domestic workers do the same?
Great post, Naina. Like you, I have several cousins in India who had arranged marriages and are quite happy. I believe this discussion is missing an important point. In the southie community my family belongs to, I believe the term "arranged marriage" is a bit of a misnomer. It's more like "arranged dating." None of my cousins got married without the opportunity to get to know and interact extensively with their eventual spouse. I certainly acknowledge that there are situations in India where the marriaged is more coerced. I'm just trying to point out that the term, "arranged marriage," is rather loaded and as a result perception, especially from those of us who did not grow up in India, is often different from reality.
Not sure why a softwae developer should get a PhD. what is the connection -- should I start calling you Dr.Neet since you got an internship ?
The forced marriage of millions of others is a fact. No one is going over the top here, Kush.
Give me a number from a study somewhere......UN, U. Delhi, Yale U. Harvard, WHO. Show me something concrete. I am not denying forced marriages, but I am calling you out on an irresponsible use of "millions" you have using again and again in your comments. You show me a comprehensive study, and I will shut up. We are talking forced marriages, not arranged.
You started "personal anecdotes" not me, let's please check the sequence of comments on this thread, and see who started it. Peace !!!
Thanks for your analysis Naina! What a strange pair this father and daughter are! One must wonder whether they used this same method to find her Ukranian husband, Mr. Wings, online -- why, they didn't even bother with an introduction to some nice Yale-educated, Connecticut-bred ABD boy! My question is, did Chandra Prasad do this just to get published in the NYTimes in order to promote her book? The article certainly is consistent with the paper's MO of promoting interference in other countries, and this article promises more ludicrous book length reasoning of similar ilk in Borrowed Wings-- the name says it all.
kurma, this is exactly what the NYTimes is about!!! This is exactly the kind of garbage that gets an audience there.Mistress of Spices, you csn't blame the shortcomings of Bihar for what's going on in Chandra's very silly head-- I have to assume she's Bihari herself, and she cannot read her lack of regard for her roots as a weakness. Plus, obviously, she never read Emma at Yale or even saw the movie or watched Clueless on TV.
Whether you want to believe it or not. Forced marriages are in the minority. Arranged marriages are in the majority. There is a lot of difference. And yes forced marriages are in the millions not in hundreds. It might change with more people getting education.
Kush:
You will be surprised how many times there is eloping, and remarriages. I am not kidding.
You know that abortion out of wedlock in India is a roaring business.
Its hard to make a general statement about India, but I doubt that for a middle class family in semi-urban Bihar, eloping or love marriage is a safe option. Ironically, the lower economic classes are a lot more accepting of such behavior: the middle class is a lot more buttoned up.
I'd generally agree with MoS that Bihar is no one's dream sasural. At the same time, if Neet's parent allowed her to study so far as to let her get a masters degree in CS, and are now allowing her to work as an intern, they do not sound like the bollywood thakur-sahib-aurat-ki-jagah-ghar-me stereotype. Also, the article does not say if Neet's married by now, or how far into the future her wedding is. If Chandra thought an arranged marriage was imminent, have her worst fears come true.
If Chandra wanted us to show empathy with her situation, she could certainly do with providing us more background, instead of hoping she could rely on our stereotypes. I am also surprised by the lack of information about her parents' attitude to the whole situation (agree with #34).
Naina, you know I love you girl (despite the dagh-e-dil you caused me on Friday afternoon), and your posts and blog are great, so maybe you can do a post on this:
Why is it that many Indians want to push the ugly sides of Indian culture under the table? Don't get me wrong, Sepia Mutiny does a great job of providing a balanced picture. But in real life, I've encountered several people who say things like, "Arranged marriage doesn't really happen anymore" or "casteism is a thing of the past." I actually know someone who is from a dalit background, and people have said that to her face.
I know that several of us go through the political progressive roller coaster:
1. Grow up resenting our Indian-ness;
2. One day realize how great our Indian-ness is;
3. End up defending Indian culture whilst forgetting the many areas which still require improvement.
I'm not trying to say "improvement" as a cultural imperialist raised in the US, but no matter what, I am Indian and am very concerned about what goes on in India. So please don't take my words in the same vein as a white feminist telling women of color what feminism is really about. I'm not trying to paint all Indians in my image.
But all too often what I end up noticing is that several Indians will discount the sad and ugly realities of Indian culture. I can see why - there are too many non-desis who perpetuate an inaccurate, unbalanced, Orientalist view of India. I GET THE NEED TO DEFEND. But real lives are also at stake, and we can't ignore that.
I am very depressed about this article.
My faith in the NYTimes has fallen drastically.
Someone should really send the NYTimes some feedback on this one.
Did the author in question ever go to India?
Or meet the cousin in question.
Does she know ANYTHING about India at all?
She is totally culturally neo-imperialist in tone, elitist in attitude, and first-world in her assumptions of life in India, be it Bihar or elsewhere. Sounds like someone who is conflicted about her own life and where she stands on the identity/feminist platform. I feel sorry for her, trapped in her supposed "American dream" life, and her need to feel superior to others.
I saw it as more of a great regard for her roots (her family) and thus she did not want to see a family member suffer.
MOS, excuse please, but it's no sign of respect for your family to try to marry off your cousin online.
MoS, most probably Neet is working in a software firm right now and making her own money. If this was a case of an actual forced marriage, I'd share your outrage. But in this case, nothing seems to have happened at all, except in the author's overactive imagination.
I've been to Bihar and I can say that if someone I know was getting an arranged marriage to a Bihari man, I would also have second thoughts about it.
And no, I'm not saying all Bihari men beat their wives or whatever. It's just that the assumption would be there that she might lead a very limited lifestyle in terms of personal space and freedoms.
Annamika, we are discussing a very ugly side of ABD culture, thanks to Naina's excellent presentation
Kush, if you really think any organization can obtain a concrete number of forced marriages in India, you are mistaken. Do you think if some researcher knocks on the door and asks, "Have you ever forced your daughters into marrying a man not of their choice?" the family is going to respond, "Oh yes, come sit down and have some chai while I tell you about how I married off Sita and Gita just last week!" Even researches support this point: "The controversial and hidden nature of forced marriage makes statistics of incidence difficult to compile." (www.soas.ac.uk/honourcrimes/FMpaperAnNa'im.pdf)
Also, here is just on incident: http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/eastmidlands/series6/forced_marriages.shtml
However, in a country of more than a BILLION people, I feel confident in taking an educated guess that more than a MILLION of those people have been forced into marrying someone not of their choosing. You can go on and on about how my point is moot without concrete numbers, but that's too easy, Kush, and you know it. That's like saying, "Well, we don't have an exact number on the number of undocumented aliens living in America, so we can't say anything at all."
I never argued that this was the case of a majority of the people. HOWEVER, it is still heartbreaking that even millions of people are being forced into marriages against their will.
Sorry that this messes with your rose-tinted view of reality, boys, but the sad reality speaks for itself.
Even Chandra Prasad did not think it was going to be a "forced marriage".
However, she is probably aware of the same phenomena that I am;
Family talks with "boys" family about daughter.
Boy's family agrees to meet with girls family, bringing the boy along to meet girl.
Girl serves tea to guests, and sits down while superficial questions are asked and answered between the girl, boy and both their families. Both boy and girl feel a bit shy and awkward but the best impression is given, best face put forward.
When asked later, the girl says she thought the boy and his family were "nice".
A date is settled upon.
They marry.
Then they get to know what each other are really like and the girl gets to know what is expected of her as a "bahu".
Was there any force?
No.
Will there be a happy ending?
Maybe. Maybe not.
Will she be expected to stay home and tend to house and take care of in-laws?
Most likely.
Sorry for two nns anamika, my typing sucks, slows me down, no matter whom I marry.
MOS, you know marrying a complete stranger here can be very very risky, and eventually extremely limiting.
Which brings up another point which Chandra probably had in her mind;
LIVING WITH IN-LAWS.
There's more of a chance of that happening in India (especially some place like Bihar), than there is marrying even an Indian man here in USA.
Same in the Ukraine, MOS, and is this any kind of alternative? Clearly not, acc. to Neet (nice simple to pronounce name for NYTimes readers). Anamika, consider that n this country of 300 million people, half of all marriages end in divorce, which is not a pretty experience, although it is often a forced one, unless both parties want it, which isn't often the case.
People usually say these things when their "ignorant" friends (or people at work) ask question like:
"So you had an arranged marriage..and were married off without your consent".
or
"umm..you're a brahmin..so how come you're comfortable touching other people in train ....they eat meat".
Here is the other scenario:
Girl is so desperate to get married.
Girl takes home boy. Boy tries to give a good impression. Answers superficial questions.
Boy takes home girl. Girl tries to dress conservatively. Makes sure she puts on an image the boys parents would like.
Both parents meet
Parents serves tea to guests, and sits down while superficial questions are asked and answered between the girl, boy and both their families. Both boy and girl feel awkward but the best impression is given, best face put forward.
A date is settled upon.
They marry.
Then they get to know what each other are really like and the girl gets to know what is expected of her as a "
bahu" "wife".Was there any force?
No.
Will there be a happy ending?
Maybe. Maybe not.
Will she be expected to stay home and tend to house and take care of
in-lawschildren and husband?Most likely.
Mistress of Spices,
Thanks for visiting. :) I am getting addicted to the blogosphere.
Anamika,
It is my assumption that there is a huge disparity between your good intentions and your knowledge of the ground reality. I do not think you have a 'view from the inside', and you are condescending to people who may not need your agitated outbursts. In my earlier response, I was referring to a kind of qualitative research methodology known as grounded theory. Yours is an etic description of an emic experience. No one knows if millions of Indians are suffering because of arranged marriage. What makes you think so? And what makes you think YOU are the savior?
However much you thump the table and shout "I guarantee you, I guarantee you" - you are sitting faraway from your objects of interest. That's my guess. If so, your strong position is a cause of concern. You need to spend time with the millions, talk to them in a language they understand, and provide others with a thick description of the situation. Till then, it's all hot air, signifying nothing.
And yes, now women in India have a recourse to divorce. In fact there is a new Domestic Violence Bill (heavily biased towards women) in India signed into law on 13th September, 2005.
Anyway, this is my last post on this issue. Anamika, YOU WIN.
A correction.
Will she be expected to
stay home andtend to house and take care ofin-lawschildren and husband?Most likely.
Anamika,
I am very glad that you are seeing some sense and light now. You started with this:
But let's not be too quick to defend Indian culture with theories that fly in the face of the realities of millions of Indian men and women.
SO PLEASE DO NOT DENY THE FACT THAT MILLIONS OF OTHERS HAVE NOT, ARE NOT, AND WILL NOT.
and now you say,
However, in a country of more than a BILLION people, I feel confident in taking an educated guess that more than a MILLION of those people have been forced into marrying someone not of their choosing.
You started with "millions" now you on "a million". Good. You have already slashed in your discourse either by factors or order of magnitude. Possibly, a million guess might be close guess for forced marriage, who knows. Maybe, 100s of thousands, who knows again.
However, if you were unchecked you would have made this "forced marriage" number close to billions or large milions, online and offline in your discussion. Drum-beating numbers from imagination is irresponsible.
Do you really think I do not know that getting a number for such a thing (forced marriages) is very difficult, even through a proxy. A lot of such studies are done through proxies and getting a proxy for forced marriage is very difficult. One could randomly sample observations, like the ones are done for corruption by UN and other academics, etc. but then in this case, no.
Good night, peace, at least some hyperbole is easing up. What good does hyperbole like yours do any good in the first place? I am at loss.
PPPPS: No one denies forced marriages. The NYT article does not even hint that was on the cards for Neet. However, people who are bringing this up are being orientalist. I think author of NYT article is naive or fool or both.
...this topic is so complex. some of you know way more about the 'situation on the ground' than i do. that being said, i understand chandra prasad was trying to make the 'right decision' based on the values i inferred from her piece, she entered in a utility calculation based upon her knowledge (and she surely knows more about the details of her cousin's life than you or i). but there seems to be an incoherency between her avowed values (and within her avowed values) and the course of action she took. i assume that she is sincere and she cares about her cousin, but, the piece gave off a whiff of the sense that her actions had as much to do with her own self-perception (i.e., as a progressive and elite american born brown) as it did with her cousin's well being.
My cousin married into a Bihari family (maybe I should clarify it was a love marriage, also I am not Bihari, so no clan pride involved here), and the girl's family are very nice people. Both their sons work in Delhi and the daughters-in-law work too. I am not saying that I have the last word on Bihari families. Both you and I are resorting to stereotypes here, yours happen to be bad, mine good. The reason we have to resort to stereotypes is that the author provides no information about the family. Was the father domineering? Did he believe women are not supposed to work? Is Neet married now? Why not, if it was imminent?
I mean, should I just assume her family is a pack of jerks simply because they are from Bihar?
Really? These are the big considerations for a marriage? What about love and compatibility and understanding and all that s**t?Turnip. I must share a favorite video with you. I don't know why I love this thing as I do, since it certainly does not prove your point, which I wholeheartedly support and endorse from my own experience.
Anyhow, is anyone thinking how Neet would have had to vacuum and do laundry etc. (i.e. be the other kind of ADCD --ayah, bearer, cook, driver -- over here? And how she'd have trouble using her degree here?
again, favorite video
>
video clip from Goodness Gracious Me
last try
Wrong. I was forced into a marriage myself, and escaped. My mother didn't. So stop picturing me as some elitist ABCD based on the way I write.
Yeah, I know what grounded theory and etic/emic experiences are. That doesn't make my assertion incorrect or "hot air" as you say, considering the fact that many of these experiences are SILENCED for fear of retribution. You cannot gather credible data on this topic b/c the men and women forced into these marriages often won't speak out of fear of stigma, retribution, threats of violence, etc. However, we can only make educated guesses based on trends and societal attitudes. Considering that India is a country steeped in the tradition of arranged marriage, we can safely assume that a few MILLIONS out of more than a BILLION people are in unfortunate circumstances due to arranged marriages. Don't you understand that the data source is compromised? And I never said that I am the savior or the solution, but obviously you want to posit me as some sort of elitist b/c I dare to go against your rose-tinted views of arranged marriage.
And...your guess is wrong.
Let me guess - you're in grad school? I've encountered so many people like you, who claim that any trend "signifies nothing" unless it is verified by a pre-defined data set. Why do you fail to understand that it is NEARLY impossible to gather this sort of empirical evidence? You can't just go and talk to millions of people who have been forced into unhappy marriages - given the context of Indian shaming rituals and stigma associated with any contestation to the marital institution, no one would be able to do this according to your criteria.
But it's easy to sit there and discount an educated guess - a very conservative guess - by saying, "You're wrong, you haven't spoken with the millions." No one has spoken to the millions of North Koreans who have suffered at the hands of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il, because the leaders won't allow access. Yet based on the consistent representations of a few refugees and a limited amount of emipirical evidence, we are able to make an EDUCATED assumption that the majority of North Koreans have been denied basic human rights at one point or another. The same can be said for the countless number of Indian men and women who have been subjected to unhappy, forced unions.
Before you blow your horn, YES, I know that N. Korea and Indian arranged marriages are not the same thing. But whereas the N. Koreans are silenced by their leaders, millions of Indian men and women are silenced by the deeply-ingrained shaming practices exercised upon those who do not conform to the ideal. And believe me, I'm not comparing apples and oranges - you'd be hard pressed to find the requisite number of Indian men and women to talk openly about how unhappy they are based on your limited criteria.
Right. I'm sure millions of unhappy wives will run to the court to get divorced now, so that they can be disowned by their families and shamed for the rest of their lives. This bill definitely helps, but you can't always solve a cultural problem with legislation.
Listen, it's easy to throw out methodology and claim moot any assertion that isn't supported by the limited criteria of your methods. It's easy to discount my conservative claims. But have you ever wondered WHY those studies that Kush Tandon so desperately needs to verify my claims don't exist? Maybe b/c they are nearly impossible to get? Grounded theory would have surely been implemented by now if the data sources were amenable to investigation. Maybe you should try - or will you quit after the fifth door shuts in your face?
It looks like Chandra Prasad is of mixed heritage: http://www.sawnet.org/books/authors.php?Prasad+Chandra - that could answer for some of her misconceptions.
Wow. I read through all of the comments and was surprised to see people so personally involved in the discussion.
First off: great article; enjoyed reading it but not the subject matter so much.
On the subject of arranged marriages: Every single person in my family (including a few married in the recent years) have had an arranged marriage, including my parents. As far as I know, they are all content. It was "arranged" in the sense that the elders put the word out that they are looking for a bride or groom, opportunities followed and meetings were set up. Even for a family as rigid as mine (and I come from a family of southie priests) there has never been a forced marriage.
As Anamika pointed out (rather forcefully), there are instances--a minority, but a minor occurrence is still an occurrence--of forced marriages. I have heard stories from my parents about people they know. But since this article focused on the subject of arranged marriages and not necessarily forced marriages, I don't see its relation to the subject at hand. I don't mean that it should be swept under the rug and not be discussed, but merely hope that it is not done in connection with this article. (Speaking of which, I agree with the majority--the article was extremely patronizing and annoying to read.)
Kush, you once again pick on minute points to make a floppy argument appear sound. You said:
I meant at least a million. I'm sure that are millions more. Why does this bother you so much?
Uh no, I would have never claimed that a billion desis are in unhappy arranged marriages. Seems like you are the one who enjoys hyperbole.
Honestly, why does the truth hurt you so much? You remind me of guys who deny every single figure out there about the number of women who get raped each year. The fact is, women get raped. The fact is, a whole shitloads of Indian men and women are in crappy marriages. I know, I know, you want numbers, but you also know that that is impossible. That doesn't make my point moot. Truth hurts, I know.
Looks like someone is finally knocking some sense into YOU. It is extremely difficult to study this phenomenon and gather enough credible empirical evidence to make a claim. THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE CAN'T VENTURE TO MAKE EDUCATED GUESSES. And I'm being conservative. So, thanks for supporting my point.
What good does hyperbole like yours do any good in the first place? I am at loss.
It brings to light issues which bullheaded people like you refuse to acknowledge. Sorry you are "at loss."
Considering that the world is steeped in the tradition of not having an arranged marriage, what about the millions of people in the world who did not get an arranged marriage but still are in mentally and physically challenging relationships, But still try to stay in the relationships so their kids can have a normal life. Who is going to save these millions.
Which brings up another point which Chandra probably had in her mind; LIVING WITH IN-LAWS. There's more of a chance of that happening in India (especially some place like Bihar), than there is marrying even an Indian man here in USA.
*********************************************
Really? These are the big considerations for a marriage? What about love and compatibility and understanding and all that s**t?
Sakshi -
Love, compatibility and understanding are HUGE considerations for you and me.
For females in India whether or not they will be living with their in-laws (most do), and what those in-laws expect of them and what kind of relationship she will have with them are HUGE considerations as well.
For those of us who have or will have a more distant relationship with in-laws, well, it't just not a HUGE consideration, more like a minor one a few times a year.
So, Chandra may have been thinking that her cousin would have more of a chance NOT having to make it a HUGE consideration by moving to USA and marrying someone here.
Why does this bother you so much?
Your senseless arm-waving.
PS: This is my last comment. You win.
Beyonce, with the song IRREPLACABLE.
Seriously, in a culture that emphasizes individuality and independence, those people have to save themselves.
And there's tons of support for them here to do that.
I am not even sure how one defines a forced marriage.
Is every arranged marriage a forced marriage by definition (considering the parents dominate the affairs and have the final say in who marries who)? If emotional blackmail is used to convince the girl/boy to marry, does an arranged marriage become a forced marriage? What if the girl/boy is married off at say, 20-22 years of age, when she has no clear concept of what a marriage entails? What if the boy/girl is not against the marriage, but just unsure?
Or a forced marriage is only one that involves an overt use of force?
Seriously, in a culture that emphasizes family, those people in forced marriages can be saved by their families. And definitely there are tons of support from their extended families to do that. So stop the arm waving.
bengali, My kids are half Bengali and half Swedish, but they would never do this to a Bengali cousin, or to a Bihari cousin for that matter. Of course, they don't consider being mixed as being their defining condition, which is a concept that an Italian-Swedish-English mother might be more likely to put forth than me, I guess. Still, what kind of woos is her father?
But sometimes those very families who are supposed to be a system of support and protection, end up providing no shelter. I've seen it.
And you also get cases where the wife does not want to worry her parents, especially if they are of ill health or have some other issues, so she remains silent. I've seen that too.
Then there's the case where the family approached the abusive husband several times and begged him to stop. He acquised for a short time then would start up again. This was a cycle that went on and on, over and over. Each time her family would approach him and demand him to stop. But they never ever suggested to their daughter, "Beti, divorce him. Come back and live with us or marry someone else".
I'm sure there are some families in India that must do that though.
And I know there are men who suffer from some type of abuse at the hands or mouths of their wives also.
Anamika,
I am sorry to hear you bring your own unfortunate experience to bear upon the discussion. Let me quote from Tolstoy's Anna Karenina:
All happy families resemble one another, each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.(First line, Ch 1)
The above line may be a figment of Tolstoy's imagination, with no empirical data to back it up. But unhappiness is extremely difficult to generalize. And to conclude that all unhappiness in Indian marriages is due to 'arranged marriage' is stretching things a bit too far.
It is my understanding that to make a marriage happy, the husband and the wife does not matter. What matters is the glue that brings/keeps them together. If it is something beyond mere convenience, probably the happiness has a longer shelf life.
Yes, you are right. I am a poor grad student.
Majority of the family in the US are like that. But you don't seem to have a problem.