I caught some of this and also wondered what the point was.

I think shows like 24 are so caught up in the need for constant action -- and disasters big enough to require calls from the president, etc. -- they fail to pause to explore anything in detail.

I want a show just about firemen who climb up trees to rescue cats in rural Arkansas. And I want Kal Penn to play the cat.

Nice post; well-written.

So what are the morals of Ahmed Amar’s story?

Mispronounce brown names at your risk; Sepia's newest blogger is sure to develop a post around it...

But what about this depiction issue in '24'? Crude as some of it can be the assorted Muzzies in the show have also been pretty glamorous or cool . There were some Iranians a few seasons ago, and now Mr Modi. Also Republican Guard poster boy Naveen A in 'Lost'. How is this an advance? It's getting to Cold War levels now, and although the Commies were always bad, they were kind of groovy, and we didn't really hate the Russians, did we? So perhaps we've come to a point where Muslims are transformed from frenzied, hairy fanatics into suave, good-looking evil-doers? Is that progress? Of sorts??

Granted that the presentation of Kal Penn played into the (brown person = terrorist) stereotype, there's a good chance that Ahmed's character will be developed in future episodes, as he remains to be interrogated by the likes of Jack Bauer and company at CTU.

24 does have a history of perpetuating negative stereotypes, which I personally have some problems with, but one can argue that they have to do it to create the fictional political climate that provides a basis for the plot. On the other hand, the show has also done a great job of showing the very dangerous slippery slope of a xenophobic America in previous seasons. Whether they'll make up for Kal Penn's role this year remains to be seen; they do seem to be focusing on Islamist terrorists so far.

hey! look who's joining the show. all we need is russell peters and we'll have a full house. maybe because their jokes have been bombing lately - hehe-

I think the blame lies squarely with the brown people for not being proactive. I'd start my day off with a Turkish Shave. It might be painful and scary, but, it will make you look less like a terrorist. Remember: facial hair is our enemy. Also, brown folks should ditch the traditional backpacks for these. You can't blame people for being paranoid if you're constantly hiding stuff from them.
Peace

UMM, priceless advice as always :)

Yeah, backpacks don't seem to be the way to. You don't want the British police to pull a Menendez on you and just shoot because you run when they randomly start chasing you.

Tried commenting on your earlier post Naina but my computer was a bit stuffed...just wanted to say I really like your writing style. Gutsy choice of subject matter without veering off into being polemical or polarising.

I saw an arthouse film called My Son The Fanatic with Om Puri and Rachael Griffiths which followed a slightly similar storyline except it was set in England. Although the subject of terrorism was sensitively treated it was still very unexplained...this liberal Pakistani guy's son just dumped his white girlfriend and became a terrorist.

Maybe it's just easier to explain terrorism in countries with highly visible conflicts - Palestine, Sri Lanka - rather than in immigrant communities living in the affluent West... I'm so glad the name hypocrisy was pointed out though. Kal Penn? His real name isn't even hard to pronounce. Look at that guy on Heroes...where's the name pride?

Well, it IS on FOX....

I'm so glad the name hypocrisy was pointed out though. Kal Penn? His real name isn't even hard to pronounce. Look at that guy on Heroes...where's the name pride?

Bullshit, Tash. I usually agree with you, but not on this.

Mr Penn, like all Americans, like all people actually, should be free to reinvent himself as he sees fit. We should stop forcing these tribal loyalties on people. Kal has done some really good projects recently, and he's going to do many more. His desiness doesn't need proving.

I think we've got to have some tolerance for the differences people adopt. Some of it strategic, some of it is performative, but it's all good. Else we'll soon start complaining that DJ Rekha doesn't wear khadi.

More than anything else I was disturbed by Penn's unusually poofy hair.

In terms of South Asian actors, I think the man who played the ambassador last night looked vaguely familiar too (possibly a man who used to do voiceovers for some ads and emcee one of the Saturday/Sunday morning Indian movie shows). No time to look up the credits right now, but I think it was him, 'cept he used to wear a moustache.

I was thinking about the motivation for the bad guys in 24, I've only been watching for 2 or 3 seasons, but don't the No. 1 guys usually have some personal quest for vengence that they hide under some cause so they can get people to follow them (e.g. Fayed getting even with Jack for his brother's death)?

More than the "you can't pronounce my name" line (imagine if they ever do a storyline involving the LTTE!), I liked when Kal Penn's shaggy friend said "It's like the world's gone crazy" and Mr. Modi replied "It's been crazy for a while and you're just noticing now."

My worst fear is that some crazy person will watch this show and think, Hey, if Kumar Patel could be a terrorist, maybe that Desai kid across the street could be one, too. Even though he’s basically a nice guy, I know deep down that they’re all the same. It’s possible. I saw it on “24.”

Meh. If someone is crazy enough to take their geopolitical/cultural assessments from 24, they're probably not worth taking seriously in the first place. I mean, previous villains on 24 have included white surpemacists, evil neocons (though it appeared to be Arab terrorists at first), Mexican drug dealers, Chinese intelligence, and Russian terrorists, and I don't it's spawned any incidents. Arab terrorists were probably next on the "enemies wheel." I imagine next season will be evil corporations, and after that maybe aliens. And even now that Arab terrorists are getting their go-round, they've got Dr. Bashir as the repentant terrorist who wants to make peace, and Jack even offed Curtis to protect him. So cut 24 some slack. I don't need people loading me up with liberal guilt issues while I'm trying to keep track of the Bauer body count. :)

Speedy

I'm so glad the name hypocrisy was pointed out though. Kal Penn? His real name isn't even hard to pronounce. Look at that guy on Heroes...where's the name pride?

Bullshit, Tash. I usually agree with you, but not on this.

I've got to side with Mr. K on this one. People have been using stage names forever (See: Marylin Monroe, Ringo Starr, Rock Hudson, Jamie Foxx, Martin Sheen, etc.). It has nothing to do with cultural pride, but has to do more with marketing. Let's not fault Mr. Penn for doing what actors have been doing for generations.

This show is on FOX, does anyone expect any different? But what I'm slightly disappointed at is the rehashing of storylines, this same plot point was visited in the Behruz character of the previous season, at that was at least dealt with in a nuanced way.

--SPOILER ALERT--

Oh, and the by the way, Kumar died at the end of hour 4, just before LA went up in smoke, so unfortunately we won't get to see Jack Bauer torture Kumar by making him smoke a burrito-sized reefer and then refusing to drive him to White Castle.

Speedy

I think the man who played the ambassador last night looked vaguely familiar

Ajay Mehta

Naina just echoed my thoughts as I sat through the entire episode hoping there is was twist in the tale. To my horror I spotted another brown guy Shaun Mazumdar playing a terrorist in the same episode.

What Mr. Kobayashi said.

I personally can't stand the timesucker discussions on my triple hyphenated 11 syllable name. I used to give castillian pronunciation points but got tired of the timesucker discussions like:
"The 'A' is said ahh, like Ahhnna. Not like the 'A' in Ass."

I don't understand how Kal Penn could do a movie like Harold and Kumar that mocks racial stereotypes and then turn around and do this. I actually would understand if it was an early role for him--then it would be "paying his dues". Now he's established enough that he could take a moral stand, at least once. Or maybe he's turned down countless other, more anti-brown roles and he can't keep turning down more.

desiskiksa-I don't understand why Kal Penn would be taking some sort of "moral stand" bhy not playing this role. I would understand it more if for example he played some kind of Hindu BJP fanatic. But he's playing a Muslim terrorist. He is not Muslim, how do we know he doesn't agree that the role is a spot on depiction of a Muslim terrorist?

24 was good for 1 or 2 seasons, but after that kept getting more ridiculous and unbelievable. Also, as a viewer, it just wasn't satisfying on an emotional level...for example you'd have a terrorist (Marwan?) who wreaked havoc for like 18 episodes, destroying lives and families, torturing people...and then he'd be suddenly killed in one second, almost before he had time to even realise his game was up. It just didn't give you that satisfied feeling you would get if you saw that the villain suffered, and realised all his fancy plans were about to come to naught. I chalk that up to very poor writing, and lack of effort on the part of the team who makes the show. And Jack Bauer...the guy saves the world over and over, and doesn't so much as get any thanks or recognition...in fact others take credit for all his work, and the guy just keeps on suffering silently. I found that so poorly done that I haven't watched the show after the 3rd season.

Totally unrelated:

I hope Kal Penn does a good job in the upcoming movie The Namesake. It hasn't been released here (I think it comes out in March) and I really want to see it.

Speedy (#11):

Meh. If someone is crazy enough to take their geopolitical/cultural assessments from 24, they're probably not worth taking seriously in the first place.

Problem is that this could confirm some people's suspicions. And people who watch 24 and take it as gospel need to be taken just as seriously as anyone else in the sense that they have an equal vote and have as much say in guiding policy in the US.

I love 24 and don't particularly care for the merits of how plausible some of it sounds. I'm still in shock over Curtis and LA ...

OK so I heard that Kal Penn is on Law & Order SVU tonite as unfortunately a rapist!

I actually would understand if it was an early role for him--then it would be "paying his dues". Now he's established enough that he could take a moral stand, at least once.

I'm not convinced he has established himself yet or for that matter not playing a high profile stereotypical role that could open many doors for him as an actor has anything to do with morality. We are just getting emotional about it.

ds, let's face it, no one in their right minds atm would turn down a role on 24.

I've no problems with Kal Penn's name. I wouldn't do it, but it's his thing. besides, I think he's gotten enough name recognition by now not to revert.

24, whatever its faults, is tv of the first order. and yeah, this isn't the first time it's propagated stereotypes. and IMO people who take their life's lessons from tv aren't worth listening to much anyway. either way, it's fun to kill an hour or two (or four). I've got to say that I watched the premiere more for Alexander Siddig (yet another name change alert, people!) than anybody else. DS9 rocked while it lasted!

Meant to add this to the previous comment:

This show is on FOX, does anyone expect any different?

FOX (in my opinion) has some good shows, like House MD and Prison Break...and watching the last episodes of American Idol (when it's narrowed down to two or three people) is my guilty pleasure. :D

I don't understand how Kal Penn could do a movie like Harold and Kumar that mocks racial stereotypes and then turn around and do this.

How "moral" can one be while acting in a fictional movie?

I don't understand how Kal Penn could do a movie like Harold and Kumar that mocks racial stereotypes and then turn around and do this. I actually would understand if it was an early role for him--then it would be "paying his dues". Now he's established enough that he could take a moral stand, at least once. Or maybe he's turned down countless other, more anti-brown roles and he can't keep turning down more.

I think you're right on your last line. I've met at least one or two actors in LA who wouldn't take the kind of roles that KP took early on (Van Wilder, Malibu's most wanted, etc..) but how they paid their rent.. is beyond me. KP told me himself for Van Wilder he changed lines in the script because they were far too derogatory (lines referring to Kali and Ganesha, etc..)

Let's keep things in perspective, this is an industry that had John Wayne playing Genghis Khan, As for taking a "moral stand", it needs to be done cryptically. Hollywood doesn't want to be lectured, it wants to make money. KP's "established-ness" was achieved through certain means, if all of a sudden he were to do a 180 and contradict those means on an ideological level, his position can (and most likely would) be yanked as quickly as it was established.

I still consider the first season of 24 to be one of the most gripping exercises in TV storytelling. I was disappointed with the ending of Season 2, and did not catch the following seasons until the last one with the traitorous President, which almost matched the first season in its taut narrative. Those posters who are focusing on the alleged stereotyping of browns seem to be rather selective. While browns are featured as terrorist foot soldiers, the bigwigs are usually Hollywood’s stock-in-trade – white corporate type guys.

It’s not like brown terrorists are unheard of – whether its Delhi shoppers at Diwali, Bombay commuters on a train, or Londoners in the Tube – some horrific acts of terrorism are committed by brown people.

Considering that the second main storyline is the abuse of civil liberties and the profiling of Muslims in the U.S., it seems to me the producers are trying their best to not give only one side of the issue, unlike some David E. Kelly piece of crap. The FBI is shown as a rather brutish bureaucracy, incapable of exercising judgment. In the current issue of Time, James Ponziewonk address how writes that it is foolish for people to try to label 24 as a “conservative” show:

“The Evolution of Jack Bauer”

“ But beyond that, things get more complicated. As the war has dragged on and become less black-and-white, so has 24. In 2003 it featured a conspiracy to provoke a Middle East invasion using bogus WMD evidence. (Yellowcake, anyone?) Last year's villain was the President, who had his predecessor assassinated. In the new season, a string of suicide bombings has led, chillingly, to federal "detention centers" for Muslims, much like in the liberal pre-9/11 movie The Siege.”

“Unlike James Bond, who just gets younger and tougher, by the new season Bauer is tired, disillusioned and wondering how much longer he can fight the Long War. His scars are not only physical; his work has cost him relationships and perhaps some part of his humanity. He has been changed and damaged by every compromise he has had to make. By extension, he forces us to ask if we have too.”

“On 24, there are a few very good people, a few very bad ones and in between, a lot of question marks who can upend the plot (and the political analogies). That may be the biggest lesson of 24 in the Iraq era: don't stubbornly hang on to your preconceptions when the facts on the ground change. [I]f conservatives and neocons think 24 is working for them, they don't know Jack.”

Forgot the link, sorry.

The Evolution of Jack Bauer

I'm afraid you haven't done your research right Naina. If you watched any previous seasons of '24', you'll remember that in Season 4, the brown owners of a gun shop actually help out Jack Bauer's fight against the enemies.

And about Kal Penn being an established actor- I'm sorry, he's only an established actor within the desi community. To Hollywood - he is still proving his worth.

Naina, your excellent explication of the "kind liberal Mr Wallace" set my thoughts off in another direction.

Now, I'm just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if there's a larger trope at work. Kal Penn's role in 24 is an extension of the idea of the young, ethnic man who's polished, likeable, "not like the others of his race." He provides philosophical comfort for people like "kind liberal Mr Wallace." It permits Wallace to exercise his open-mindedness, and to congratulate himself for it. However, the young man (it's almost always a man) turns out to be like the others anyway. His likeability is a veneer, and his ethnic malevolence, vaguely suspected from the beginning, eventually outs.

This was at work in John Guarre's play Six Degrees of Separation. You might have seen the film version with Will Smith. He gains the confidence of rich white couples by claiming to be Sidney Poitier's son--he turns out to be a liar and a confidence man (no pun intended).

A variation of the idea can be seen in an early scene in the film Crash, when two young black men discourse intelligently, and humorously, on the fact that they're getting suspicious looks in a certain swanky LA neighborhood. A moment later, the smiles vanish, and they draw their weapons and rob a white couple.

A variation on it is in John Updike's recent novel Terrorist. In that case, it's the young man's father, when he was a young man himself, who came to America as an exchange student, from Egypt. The elements are similar though: the generous invitation, and the eventual fallout from that naive act of trust.

The moral: don't trust them, don't let them in, no matter how articulate they are, no matter how clean cut--the apple never falls far from the tree.

The entire western white media needs a 'thapar' in the face with a 'gandha' 'juthi' or suffocated with a 'gandha' 'katcha' and for those damn brown fools who want to be a "star" in Hollywood playing those same lame ass maf!#*ing stereotypical roles hoping one day for equitable movie or television roles...It's never going to happen!!! Wake up bitches!!! African Americans who have been in Hollywood for a damn long time are still struggling today in television and film. (Listen to the song Burn Hollywood Burn by Public Enemy) From minstrel shows to stereotypes, to tokenism to more stereotypes and sub-dominant roles, to more sub-domiant roles, more tokenism and covert racist assumptions to even more minstrel shows (Like Flava Flav's stupid ass show) etcetera etcetera and so fourth. Even with whatever "progress" is made there is always a manifestaion of more bullshit, it just becomes more elusive to detect. The better character and the better roles will always go to non-coloured people. And the sub-dominant roles, stereotypical roles etcetera will always go to......drum roll please.....COLOURED PEOPLE!!! YAY! And speak of progress??? Let's talk about awards given to actors such as the Oscars. For instance, look at the roles that Denzel Washington and Halle Berry won best actor/actress for in 2001 oscars I belive. Denzel a black, stereotypical crooked, nasty, thug, corrupted cop, Halle, a Black Woman who "submits to the powerful white man's penis" who executed her husband. I wonder what role will Kalpen Modi receive an Oscar for? Will it be a role in which his character is not tied into cultural or racial implications or will it be for his superb role in the Namesake??? Hmmmm what a question... Desi people will be messed up even more in Hollywood! Desi people are even messed up in their own Bollywood! I think Kalpen Modi should realize it's over, leave it, and make his own independent films where he can make (hopefully) a piece of art...unless of course he stills wants to be the full-time Desi Minstrel show wearing "a huge comedic Turban saying gandi, gandi, gandi, gandi I love curry" in some white teen high jinx, masturbatory film and a part-time serious Desi character in a movie drenched in racial and cultural implications and about terroism. And if he still has that hopeof making "progress"...then I AM GOING TO GO SMOKE A BIG BAG OF WEED in order to not become obesessed over trying to bitch slap the brown of his damn face! And if he makes progress and opens the door for other desi people then....ahahahahaha that's not going to happen...come on people...come one!!! But seriously if he does then big up to him!!!!

lol, i like 24. The show is on FOX, what do you expect? Besides the blatant fact of making all the terrorists dark skinned because white people are too stupid to tell the difference between light skinned arabs and themselves.

Kal Penn - seriously awesome, glad he did this role, he's breakin out of the typecasted goofy roles.

desishiksa - do you know anyone in the movie industry? I doubt it, ya you know you can have your morals, and guess what you'll end up a washed up actor because you can't get any roles. My cousin was out in hollywood for 20 years, still there, now a producer, but back in his acting days couldn't get a role that wasn't a terrorist, servant, quikiemart attendant, you might have seen him on growing pains and murphy brown, lol. Point of the story is that Kal penn is almost famous, his roles have all been identical, he'll end up being typecasted for his entire life. I guess what i'm saying is you don't know what position he's in, Rise of Taj, failed.

In all seriousness tho, i like this show, it shows that america is in trouble, a NUKE went off in LA. I think that its still american gov't fodder to increase patriotism and also make racial profiling easier, errr more like racism.

i like it when white people are scared of people of color

so... how many of you are planning to boycott tv or '24' or whatever?
no, dont all stand up at once.

I'm afraid you haven't done your research right Naina. If you watched any previous seasons of '24', you'll remember that in Season 4, the brown owners of a gun shop actually help out Jack Bauer's fight against the enemies.

why is it so important that they develop every character before the writers off them? Face it, Kal Penn wasn't that important in this series of 24. Anyways, for those of you who care, I started a support group on facebook for those who are mourning Curtis Manning's death last night. People, please get over yourselves, Mr. Penn has no requirement to be loyal to Indians. I really hate that attitude among Indian-Americans.

For instance, look at the roles that Denzel Washington and Halle Berry won best actor/actress for in 2001 oscars I belive. Denzel a black, stereotypical crooked, nasty, thug, corrupted cop, Halle, a Black Woman who "submits to the powerful white man's penis" who executed her husband.

Um. Wow.

Denzel is a great actor.

And by the way: Russell Crowe won in 2001 for best actor for the movie Gladiator...and best actress was Julia Roberts for Erin Brockovich. Here's your proof.

He is not Muslim, how do we know he doesn't agree that the role is a spot on depiction of a Muslim terrorist?

You're missing the point. I'm not saying brown people shouldn't play terrorists on TV. I wouldn't have any problem with him playing a terrorist per se. This particular role, however, from Naina's description at least (I haven't watched 24 since the first season) sounds like it vindicates those who are suspicious of their brown neighbors, however innocuous they might seem, and mocks the "kind liberals" for their foolish faith in humanity.

People who get their ideas from TV shows like 24, and their news from Fox News, should be taken seriously. Those are the people who influence policy in America today because they have the power of the vote.

...two points

1) i've been surprised and heartened by the lack of american born muslim terrorists since 9/11.

2) that being said, i suspect that a large number of future islamic terrorists will be 'homegrown.' if you read profiling works like marc sagemen's you note that many of the young men caught up in these movements are 'modern' and well educated, and more than the norm are converts to islam. this seems like it will be more a problem in europe where the muslim subculture is more adversarial than the USA.

i like it when white people are scared of people of color

Why, so you can be the victim of a hate crime, or you can be accidentally shot on the subway because the cops thought you were a terrorist? That's what people do when they're scared--they lash out.

i like it when white people are scared of people of color

Yes, because their fear gives you power, right?

Someone's just a smidge insecure.

that being said, i suspect that a large number of future islamic terrorists will be 'homegrown.' if you read profiling works like marc sagemen's you note that many of the young men caught up in these movements are 'modern' and well educated, and more than the norm are converts to islam.

I have a sneaking suspicion that this will be the case. I've been hearing from my friends in law enforcement that some really odd, divergent versions of Islam have been developing in the US prison system.

Denzel a black, stereotypical crooked, nasty, thug, corrupted cop,

Uhh, that is probably the only the second villain he's played on film (first was in the excellent A Soldier's Story). In Hollywood, the meatiest roles are often villians. Anthony Hopkins was an unknown before Silence of the Lambs - that movie launched his career. I preferred Kal Penn as terrorist against his performance in American Desi.

Second, in 24, the producers and writers do not tell the actors what will happen until the day of shooting. So when Penn signed on, he was given just a bare outline of his character - no one knows when they will die.

Oh - and ditto on those mourning the death of Curtis. I thought that was shocking enough, until the bomb went off.

many of the young men caught up in these movements are 'modern' and well educated, and more than the norm are converts to islam

Perfect example Omar Sheikh

I didnt see the show --but I at the very least hope he says "you can't even pronounce my name!!" in kal pen type humorous way. I guess given that it is a prime time fox show, and while there all types of people who watch it, it is primarily going out to that mainstream white America audience who seriously can't pronounce "Ahmed." But it actually does bring up another interesting issue:

"In addition to the improbable storyline, the characters were poorly developed. We never understand why someone like Amar, a teenager who lives in a ritzy neighborhood, would be a terrorist. All we know is that he’s a brown Muslim and that he’s in cahoots with some very bad people... When Amar’s hostages ask him why he wants to be a terrorist, he replies, “It’s not because I want to. It’s because I have to.” Well, that still doesn’t tell us anything."

If it weren't 24, and if it were something with a little more thought put into it, focusing on that Ahmed character--this could be an extremely interesting plot segway. If any of you has seen the Daniel Pearl documentary that came out recently, you would know that they did sort of a comparative biographical analysis of Pearl and his captor Sheik Omar. While the Pearl story was obviously heart wrenching and tragic-the Sheik Omar story really got me intrigued. Here was this typical desi guy from the UK who went to a ritzy prep school, the london school of economics and CHOSE to go not only fight for al qaeda but become a leader within the organization. This was not a case of "it's because I have to." This was a man who took his "im a confused desi surrounded by white people" psychology to a whole new level. The life he was afforded and accostumed to was not too different from many of our lives here. Although intellectually I know that in general "revolutionary" leaders supposed to empower the lower rungs of society is hardly ever an actual member of the low rungs of society-but usually members of the upper middle class and have very high levels of education--it was wierd seeing this phenomenon occur with a desi guy born and raised in the West (from a personal standpoint). It makes sense on an intellectual/sociological level, but I was so fascinated as well as horrified by his story because his upbringing wasn't too far off from my own.

Anyway, I would never expect this level of analysis from 24 so the fact that they took it half way by casting Kal pen kind of pisses me off, bc it clearly sends the wrong message--just taking a young desi guy with an American accent and not taking the time to show that there might be some nuance to his terrorist ways is obviously not going to enlighten or challenge anyone's preconcieved notions. But I would be curious to see if that dualism and indentiy crisis is more carefully addressed on some other medium.

Personally, I think anything that gets people to pronounce my name correctly is a plus, no matter what the means. (You'd be surprised how many people can't say "Ennis" !)

You'd be surprised how many people can't say "Ennis" !)

Silly wabbit, everyone knows it rhymes with p!nis.

He provides philosophical comfort for people like "kind liberal Mr Wallace." It permits Wallace to exercise his open-mindedness, and to congratulate himself for it.

Oooh, that's biting, great insight Mr. K.

Why, so you can be the victim of a hate crime, or you can be accidentally shot on the subway because the cops thought you were a terrorist? That's what people do when they're scared--they lash out.

desishiksa - LOL, you crack me up. First of all, i've been a victim of hate crime, if i was a typical desi i would have probably tried to apologize and cry/run and ended up in a SM article. Note the 'if'; i got beat pretty bad(5 v 1), but i did stab one of the kids in the throat with my keys which caused enough blood that they freaked out an ran off.

Point being, is that ya it sucks, but playing the victim card is bullshit. Friends of mine who grew up in the bronx had to worry about getting shot from the bus back to their apt. So ya, people lash out all the time, deal with it, or just do what lots of other desis do.

Move to a gated community where everyone is rich.

Given Bollywood's influence, the progress we see in films like "Guru", and the relative affluence of the Indian diaspora, does Kal Penn really need FOX?
Or, conversely, do desis need Kal Penn to be their pioneeering actor in Hollywood? I don't think so.
We need our own framework. Then let us see how KP does against other desi actors.

does Kal Penn really need FOX? Or, conversely, do desis need Kal Penn to be their pioneeering actor in Hollywood? I don't think so. We need our own framework. Then let us see how KP does against other desi actors.

Yes lets all (barely) 2% of us! I don't get your logic. We have Bollywood to see how desi actors do against each other.

I remember Bill Cosby pronounced his son's name Ennis-as in tennis. What-that's not right? Or are people saying Ennis like Ayy-nis?

Damn, that hurts, son! I take what I said before back. Sometimes I do care how my name is said.

JOAT,
We may be 2%, but we have possible clout. That is my point.
And, and, we spend way too much time discussing KP, a middling actor at best.

Just for the record...

Even though I don't get all bent about people pronouncing my name/names all castillian and whatnot, I do not feel everyone should adopt my attitude towards it.

I'll do what it takes to not dis anyone elses name by asking people to write things out phonetically, make comparisons, etc. It's only a timesucker when it comes to my own name.

I have several students from Cameroon and S. Afica and that's what we did so I could learn their names. It took a few tries though. Anyone ever tried Navajo? Or Xhosa?

Point being, is that ya it sucks, but playing the victim card is bullshit. Friends of mine who grew up in the bronx had to worry about getting shot from the bus back to their apt. So ya, people lash out all the time, deal with it, or just do what lots of other desis do.

Move to a gated community where everyone is rich.

Ok, tough guy...I deal with violent patients on a regular basis in my job, so moving to a gated community isn't going to protect me from violence, and I do "deal with it", as you so nicely put it. It's not "playing the victim card", it's playing smart. If we let people continue to assume brown people are a threat, hysteria will reach WW2 proportions, and if we're not all attacked, we'll be interned. Obviously that's a huge leap from random hate crimes, but it's a slippery slope, and that's why people write about it. Just because I don't want people to see me as a threat doesn't mean I see myself as a victim.

People, please get over yourselves, Mr. Penn has no requirement to be loyal to Indians. I really hate that attitude among Indian-Americans

Kindly, sir, I disagree. If we are to expect Mr. Penn to not be "loyal" -- and by that I suspect you mean playing less stereotypical and more varied representations of the brown man -- then he should avoid suggesting to the press that he is taking on projects which break stereotypes.

Fine. I don't expect any actor to be unwise and not take the only roles which may be coming in for him. But I think that Kal has consistently taken the same types of roles; and, yet, he promises in interviews (somewhat unsuccessfully) new projects which he claims are going to be vastly different from before -- you could find some of his words on this subject on Nirali Magazine or even here on SM. I do wonder though if he earns well enough in mainstream projects, like Van Wilder, if he could do an arthouse film every once in a while. Presumably, that form of media may be the only way we could see him tell different stories than the terrorist/racialized-other/store-clerk/nerd ones we have historically seen in Hollywood for brown men. *Yeah, yeah...you're all excited about The Namesake. If only it weren't a Mira Nair production. We'll see.*

desishiksha - first, i'm not a tough guy, i learned muay thai and wing chun BCOS of racist rednecks who gave me shit growing up. It's a last resort, i take alternative routes, like doing drugs with them, you'll be surprised how many situations i've defused by smoking a blunt(lol, the new peace pipe). Secondly, props on working in the mental ward, i did some work there one summer before deciding to not be a doctor and be another suit.

Just because I don't want people to see me as a threat doesn't mean I see myself as a victim.

Very good point, i agree with you in an ideal world. People are idiots in general, its the ignorant who are the people who think we are threats, and are the people who perform hate crimes. So ya, when i see one of these assfucks out, and he says some shit, hell ya i hope he thinks twice that maybe i'm a threat to HIM. While most people find this logic bogus, its worked for numerous black friends of mine who can feign gangsterness just by being black and saying the word 'glock' or 'bloodz'.

I want a show just about firemen who climb up trees to rescue cats in rural Arkansas. And I want Kal Penn to play the cat.

Haha! Great idea! Btw, speaking of Mr. Modi, I have been waiting and waiting to see "The Namesake" pop up in theaters. I heard that he did very well in it, but it hasn't shown up. Does anyone know what happened?

desishiksa- I don't think all brown people would be interned;only the Muslim ones. I'm highly skeptical that Indian Hindus and Sikhs would be interned as part of some undifferentiated brown mass. I beleive that, after 9/11, when immigrants from various Muslim countries were summoned to report themselves to Homeland Security,India was not on the list of countries. This is surprising, because India has one of the largest Muslim populations in the world. The Indian lobbyists did an excellent job in preserving India from that group of "terrorist" countries. I believe the same would happen again because somebody pointed out that Indians have "clout."

I agree that you're probably right, but what about Indian Muslims who are American citizens?
I don't really think anyone will be interned at all (I, perhaps naively, do have some faith in progress), but I was painting a worst case scenario.

when immigrants from various Muslim countries were summoned to report themselves to Homeland Security,India was not on the list of countries.

I wonder if China and Indonesia were on that list. Very large populations of Muslims there as well..Anyone know?

OK so I heard that Kal Penn is on Law & Order SVU tonite as unfortunately a rapist!

oh god. and i was so excited to see my man on NBC tonight. how would you know if he is really the rapist?

Few Points:

Hollywood and TV is for making money, and is the artistic expression of the people making it. They have full freedom to pursue their expressions, and make products that people will see. Let's face it, sleeper terrorism like sex sells these days. Art takes cues from its environment and mood around, not the other way around.

Are you guys willing to write $50/ week check to Kal Penn in return he promises not to do "some roles" or maybe produce movies for him. He will do roles that are offered to him, and pay his bills. He is a struggling actor in the bigger scheme, and if pulls Tom Cruise style belief on the sets, he will be history. Acting is acting, not a personal statement. Maybe, Hopkins is psycho like Lecter in real life.

It is better such things come out in TV shows and movies as a safety value. Not shown in movies does not mean it does not lurk in the hearts and minds of the people. It is just bottled up. When Homeland Security asked muslims from many countries to do additional registration, it had nothing to do with TV or Hollywood.

Nobody is gonna be interned in America in the 21th century.

Some people have to get over the fact that a brown person who looks like most of us is playing a bad guy on TV.

A brother can never catch a break. Kal Penn has no requirement to be fatithful to The Cause. If and when he does, it is probably to save face with family/other browns who will always accuse him of selling out. Kal Penn is not a big name. He is nobody right now. People like Naveen Andrews and the guy from Heroes probably do more for Indian/brown representation than Penn. You wanna know why?

TV. When people bring you into their homes, there is a greater level of acceptability. TV has consistently pushed the boundaries of acceptability be it with black actors, gay characters or now browns. Part of it is that TV can be more experimental. You can nix a character if it doesn't work and TV is controlled by writer/creators who can write more brown/black roles.

If someone has any numbers or statistics on the ratio of Indian writers on the staff at most comedy or dramatic shows compared to number of actors, I would be curious to know. The more browns that go into writing and especially writing for TV, the better the roles and characters for Indian actors to play non-stereotypical roles.

There are other ways of changing it too. Guys and girls, date more white Americans, Jewish Americans. They control the media and by increasing your exposure with that subset, you will have better characters. The reason Harold and Kumar got made was because the Jewish writers had friends similar to Harold and Kumar growing up that weren't getting represented.

Secondly, props on working in the mental ward,

It's actually the ER, but some would say there's no difference :)

A lot of people I know took the route you did, including some of my cousins, because they were fed up with all the bullshit they were getting. But what I'm concerned about is really misplaced institutional violence like the guy who got shot on the London subway, or non-violent but still troubling events like making people get off planes because they are speaking an Arabic-sounding language. So I think we're talking about two different things--people being afraid of you because you might do some personal harm to them, which I can see the usefulness of, versus people being afraid of you because you might be part of a terrorist plot.

Maybe, Hopkins is psycho like Lecter in real life.

Apparently Martha Stewart got so creeped out by his Lecter depiction that she dumped Hopkins. I think Martha scares more people than the good Dr. Lecter...

Are you guys willing to write $50/ week check to Kal Penn in return he promises not to do "some roles" or maybe produce movies for him.

Guys and girls, date more white Americans, Jewish Americans.

Even I get a little paranoid these days when so many depictions of us are so negative --- terrorists, wife beaters, doctors. Come on, hurry up and make the new Harold and Kumar film.

Kal Penn should be able to play any role he wants. It called acting.

People should be able to comment on the roles Kal Penn takes and it's ramifications on the society we live in. It's called discussion.

Maurice Reeves (#22) and desishiksa (#37) both said something along the lines of "People who get their ideas from 24 should be taken seriously because they still get to vote." (i paraphrase).

A good point, but then, people who get their ideas from Mein Kampf still get to vote, and no one takes them seriously either as a political force either. My point is that people who would actually base their assessments of anyting on 24 are so woefully stupid and ignorant that there's nothing one can do to change their minds...so there's no use worrying about them unless it's to come up with a more efficient way of separating them from their money.

Noel

It is better such things come out in TV shows and movies as a safety value. Not shown in movies does not mean it does not lurk in the hearts and minds of the people.

Film and TV have historically been used as propaganda tools. Why don't you think people's values are created by what they see on TV? The clothes I wear, the food I eat, the stuff I buy for my house--I got a lot of those ideas from TV, so why not ideas on how to treat my neighbors? That's why American TV had after school specials to educate kids about drugs and sex and racism, and why the Indian government controlled Indian TV so carefully for so many years.

All we know is that he’s a brown Muslim

What more do you need? Haul out the waterboard.

If you think this is bad, check out Showtime's "Sleeper Cell", in which an anonymous brown person, a liberal, a European, and a black person conspire to BLOW UP AMERICA. Quality fucking entertainment right there.

desishiksa-

WORD! you're absolutely correct. I was in paris a week after the london bombings, i played role of dumb american tourist as best i could, but ya i got profiled like crazy everywhere, well on top of the racist Parisians. Either way ya, i worry about what you're saying also.

But ya, institutional violence/discimination is a big problem. I couldn't receive Top Secret Clearance because my parents are still Indian citizens, even tho they've lived here for over 30 years and are both professors at State Universities. Its all good the private sector has more money.

lol, you're a smart shiksa, i guess the desi part of your name negates the idiot part associated! Don't tell me you live in long island!

The clothes I wear, the food I eat, the stuff I buy for my house--I got a lot of those ideas from TV, so why not ideas on how to treat my neighbors?

LOL, the sad part is that you're an edumacated doctor. TV is bad enough, its the internet i'm worried about. I'm generation Pepsi, which means i'm young enough that i played on the internet in '94 when i was in 6th grade and also old enough to remember tight rolled jeans and the grunge movement(copied older siblings).

TV can easily be moderated, thanks FCC, but the internet, scary place now, idiot kids who are young, can go anywhere and can read anything, and they believe it. Myspace stalking and shit like that in general is horrendous, i just see the internet being a remarkably terrible/powerful way for ignorance to be spread.

I love SM, for killing productivity at the office.

I am so with desishiksa on this one. I think, in theory, actors should be able to take whatever roles they want to. That said, this is a classic dilemma among minority communities -- do you take a role, even if it is stereotypical or degrading? I think a lot of people would say yes, but this "yes" becomes more acceptable when there are enough "positive" or "realistic" representations of said community that someone can afford to take the risk of presenting a negative depiction.

While readers here may not respect someone who gets their information from a fictional show, it's not rare to meet people in this country who have never met a person of color; they've only seen them on TV. I don't think it's smart to discount the impact that television & film have in dehumanizing people. There was a really excellent article on desi actors taking "terrorist roles" and walking that line a few months back - perhaps covered in SM?

As far as 24 goes, in my opinion the show has been going downhill for a few seasons. I'm also not really surprised that this was the story line. I have a good number of friends who watch religiously and find themselves cheering on Jack Bauer, even when his tactics fly in the face of their politics (e.g. anti-torture, pro-"rights of the accused", etc.). That's just the nature of the show.

There was a really excellent article on desi actors taking "terrorist roles" and walking that line a few months back - perhaps covered in SM?

negates the idiot part associated!

Does shiksa mean idiot too? Because I was using it for this definition. Maybe it's the confluence of "shiksa" and "blonde" that gives rise to that association?

I couldn't receive Top Secret Clearance because my parents are still Indian citizens, even tho they've lived here for over 30 years and are both professors at State Universities.

How many movies have come out about muslims terrorists since the events 9/11. I can't think of too many. Infact you still have movies with Russian terrorists and everybody favorite neo-nazi's.

Film and TV have historically been used as propaganda tools. Why don't you think people's values are created by what they see on TV?

The best description of this is, surprisingly from the CBFC (Central Board of Film Certification):

"Film censorship becomes necessary because a film motivates thought and action and assures a high degree of attention and retention as compared to the printed word. The combination of act and speech, sight and sound in semi darkness of the theatre with elimination of all distracting ideas will have a strong impact on the minds of the viewers and can affect emotions. Therefore, it has as much potential for evil as it has for good and has an equal potential to instill or cultivate violent or good behaviour. It cannot be equated with other modes of communication. Censorship by prior restraint is, therefore, not only desirable but also necessary"

desishiksa - lol, i don't have a definition, just whats interpretted from my jewish boys. I don't think that idiocy is attributed, but they throw it around with that implication. so i'm probably wrong.

Ya i'm super clean on what words i use in this blog, lol, so should everyone, cause if i had to bet on anything is that, this site traffic is monitored by our good ol boyz.

To me, the dangerous part of 24's popularity is not the racial depictions, but the obvious endorsement of torture and its efficacy. In every season, someone is tortured under a 'ticking bomb' scenario and spews out the needed information. No one ever presents false information and the moral quandaries of government action are avoided by utilizing non-government sanctioned characters (Bauer, other terrorists, etc). There is a reason why bush and co. love this show

To me, the dangerous part of 24's popularity is not the racial depictions, but the obvious endorsement of torture and its efficacy. In every season, someone is tortured under a 'ticking bomb' scenario and spews out the needed information. No one ever presents false information and the moral quandaries of government action are avoided by utilizing non-government sanctioned characters (Bauer, other terrorists, etc). There is a reason why bush and co. love this show

A depiction of torture is not equal to endorsement - Bauer has tortured innocents on the show, and the the viewer is left to wonder for what reason. And that running storyline of the dangers of ethnic profiling has been in almost all seasons of the show.

I'm guessing those who criticize 24 probably were fans of The West Wing, where lefties solved the world's problems through walk n' talks.

I criticize 24's depiction of torture in ticking-bomb scenarios. In the real world, such situations remain hyperbole, yet defenders of torture routinely cite it as the smoking gun reason why torture should not be outlawed. The overwhelming actual use of torture has been conducted in secure, non-emergency situations in places like Guantanamo Bay years and years after people's capture, or in Abu Ghraib/Vietnamese POW camps where interrogators were allowed/encouraged to use violence, and then derived some form of sick pleasure in doing so. Why talk about what torture could save us from, when we know what it already has done to our or other societies?

I criticize 24's depiction of torture in ticking-bomb scenarios

Um.. it is a tv show written to elicit maximum audience reaction. What would you suggest the show writers should do ? Have Jack Bauer play Celine Dion songs to make the terrorist crack ? (actually that might work too...)

What would you suggest the show writers should do ? Have Jack Bauer play Celine Dion songs to make the terrorist crack ?

That would still be torture, potentially worse than having a knife inserted in your kneecap.

I would understand it more if for example he played some kind of Hindu BJP fanatic. But he's playing a Muslim terrorist. He is not Muslim, how do we know he doesn't agree that the role is a spot on depiction of a Muslim terrorist?

You can look at it whichever way you want and call me muslim-hater, racist, blah-blah but at this point of time in history, nothing can be more horrifying for a hindu than being mistaken for an arab or muslim.

So...one of my friends called me to say there was someone on "24" this week - a terrorist character - who looked just like my husband (delightful). Now she is NOT that blind to think that my 50 year old salt and pepper moustached and bearded spouse bears any resemblance to Kal Penn - was it perhaps the Fayed dude?

BTW, Desishiksa is correct. No implication of idiocy in trhe term "shiksa." The Yiddish term for idiot is "putz."

Oh yeah, the other one is "schmuck." Both also refer to the male sexual organ.

"The Namesake" opens March 9th, limited release.

I didn't think he was that strong in it, but Tabu and Irfan Khan were amazing.

Was wondering when a post on Kal Penn's character on 24 would show up on SM ( I just found this blog BTW... my peoples!!!!!)

I had mixed feelings about it myself. 24 is a testosterone fantasia that specialises in trashing expectations in its race to the finish line... unfortunately Kal's character being revealed as a terrorist after all was the twist they chose to take on the "outraged decent neighbours" plot. I had to admit that I laughed when he sonned the teen about mispronouncing his name ( right there with ya, buddy) and at the realisation that he was supposed to be playing a teenager.

24 likes to play both sides of the fence politically when it comes to these racial/political issues... you can either live with it as a viewer or not. The moment you think it's a right-wing apologia, the writers upend your expectations and vice versa. At the moment, I can live with it. I'm far more curious about the internment camp plotline and the dynamic between Jack Bauer and Assad( Alexander Siddig, apparently playing Gerry Adams with an Arabic accent)...

I think "Gotham Bombay" would make a good stage name for an aspiring desi actor in hollywood. Either that or Pilavullakandi Thekkeparambil.

"I saw an arthouse film called My Son The Fanatic with Om Puri and Rachael Griffiths which followed a slightly similar storyline except it was set in England."

Regarding "My son the fanatic", Hanif Kurieshi has written quite a bit on the subject of 2nd generation (more like third generation) radicalization in the UK, including a novel called "The Black Album" - IIRC, he claimed to have based it on millenial changes he saw occuring in the immigrant community around him, & later, in the course of his researches in mosques and the like.
And BTW - the kid in the movie doesn't become a terrorist, just overly puritan in his beliefs. Big difference.

when caucasians (read: white americans) play russians in, say, james bond movies, nobody really cares. and so what if michelle yeoh, a malaysian, plays a chinese spy? look, if a desi plays a middle eastern person in an action show, well... it should be expected. i mean, plotwise it sells and kal penn is playing up his browness. my issue was much more simple-- i thought the plot was pathetic. but hey, if normal viewers of 24 find it consumable, than thats ok with me...

FYI: Mr. Penn is on Law & Order: SVU playing a rapist RIGHT NOW.

Krao (comment #83 and #85),
You are ahead of the curve. MSNBC's Countdown with Keith Olbermann made exactly the same point that you do about depiction of torture.
Keith also insinuated that "24" is a systematic way to keep the American public "aware" of the terrorism issue and keep them in fear, so that it can then be exploited politically.
Is it any surprise that this show is on FOX and Cheney loves the show??

Oh jeez that was a bad Law and Order SVU and not one of the best episodes I must admit. The father irritated me. Everyone was trying to hide their American accents and the characters seemed so plastic.

just watched the law & order. didn't like the character kal played. thought the episodes was one of the most poorly written. but i know it'll be great for the brother.

i think in his last few projects he's played a handful of diverse characters. he's paid his dues and now the better movie roles should be coming in for him.

and even if they don't kal's career has already done enough for the other desi kids trying to make it.

Amar responds, “We’re friends?! You can’t even pronounce my name. It’s not Aw-med. It’s ACCCCCCH-med.” (And it’s not Kal Penn, it’s Kalpen Modi.)

I would understand it more if for example he played some kind of Hindu BJP fanatic.

I thought that instead of inviting Narendrea Modi here they shoulda stuck to Kalpen. But Lordy, he is everywhere now. Making money and going to Stanford too, how does Badalundabad do it? Good thing the Harold and Kumar sequel is coming up, even if they don't Go To Amsterdam.

Whats the deal with Kumar getting all the bad guy roles lately? Superman followed by 24 and now Law And order.

yeah-- he was kind of creepy, it was a badly written SVU episode. why does sakina jaffrey always have 2 minute roles that involve her using a really bad fake accent (see heroes, sex and the city, etc.)?? she was pretty good in that random indie film "chutney popcorn" although this could be because the main actress/writer was absolutely terrible. and why did that other south asian brother on SVU have such an AWFUL accent-- was he even south asian? i missed his name in the credits.

i'm hoping our brother kal gets more interesting and diverse roles in the future-- i'm looking forward to the namesake although i really wish they would do short films based on the interpreter of maladies (such a better book!!).

a few final random notes:

1) my boss here at work has a son who works for new line and is best friends with kal penn-- i hear random stuff about his life all the time. crazy!

2) ice-t, mr. cop-killer-turned-cop-on-tv was next to me in customs coming home to california from canada circa 1998-- he came up to my shoulder. no lie. and i'm only 5'3".

apparently kal penn said at the premiere namesake that he was very excited to play a non-traditional role, and he's similarly gushed on the same on ztv interviews. while he-and all the many other south asian and middle eastern actors on 24 bother me a bit in general because of their participation in the project-he deserves a break. his last flick went nowhere:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/van_wilder_2/

there are many ways to achieve the ends of racial equality on tv but it's a mighty uphill struggle. (See the above Burn Hollywood Burn comment) (also makes me worry about obama). he did a pretty good job in that role tho so kudos to ahhhhmed for advancing his career.

k 24 has horrendous politics. but i don't believe in censorship. plus, lest us forget that it is filled with many nuances that provide a small counterweight; in this season: a converted former islmamic militant comes to the us to stop the attacks; an african american president; an african american woman defending the islamic association of america; important points within the administration re civil liberties; a president who respects civil liberties; and a Muslim man who decides to stay in jail to be an informant. In other episodes a white girl who is the secret terrorist; a muslim kid dating a white girl; Muslim kids in a store who help Bauer.

OK, I can't say it's a positive show for Muslims with a straight face but I love it. But while TV perpetuates stereotypes, it also has the potential to provoke thinking: it's the only real food of America. While it was bad for the hate crime against Kal Penn to have potentially stopped a terrorist attack, it is super good that a former Hamas character is working hand in hand with CTU in a battle that could save "hundreds, thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of lives."

The Ambassador used to read the Indian news on the weekends in New York back in the day ... and its perfectly fine to hold actors to the same sort of ethical standards around the roles they take as any other artist or working stiff/cog in the system. There's no absolution just because its hard to get work ... history is full of responsible, stand up performers who turned down roles they found socially or politically unacceptable so the template is out there ... if you choose to take the roles ... take the lumps along with the paychecks.