January 16, 2007
The Kids Are AlrightIdentity
Intentblog, the weblog aggregation of the Chopra spiritual-aspirational empire, is a strange mishmash of largely desi-written key-issues insight (Sepia friend Dave Sidhu), New Age preening (nympho-striver Saira Mohan), and general bloviating (too many to list), generating awkward, fawning comments, many of which seem to be from Polish guys named Marek looking for a date.
Amid all this are entries from the Chopras themselves, including the big man and his progeny. Of these, the oddly-spelled Gotham has earned some visibility for his own projects and initiatives beyond the family business. These include the Virgin Comics line of desi superhero tales, which I’ve seen a couple of copies of and look pretty damn cool, even to my untrained eye, and more dubious ventures like the midtown Manhattan “Kama Sutra-themed” K Lounge, which one astute Citysearch user reviewed as follows: “Pros: easy jersey booty; Cons: bad bartenders, bad jersey booty.” We’ve also mentioned Gotham here in the mutiny’s early days, smoking out various fans, haters and impersonators in the process.
Lately Gotham’s been waxing worried about the decline of desi cultural identity in the multiculti American stew, having traveled to the belly of the beast — the notorious SASA conference which Abhi roundly dissed yesterday — and been horrified by the brown binge-drinking buffoons and playa and hoochie wannabes he found setting the tone of the proceedings. Gotham was so alienated that he had to move out of the conference hotel to a more spiritually centered location. After several days of processing, he wrote this cri de coeur, and though I admit I’m vacillating in my tone here between snark and sympathy, I have to say I feel for the brother. Here’s what he saw:
I, myself, am only 30 years old but found myself so shockingly displaced from the South Asian community congregated down at the conference that I’ve been unable to articulate my thoughts the last few days and even blog about it. This is my best shot.
Thr primary focus, it seemed, amongst the over 1000 20-somethings (and yes, this is a broad generalization so take it for what it is) was oft articulated by the attendees themselvs, was to ‘get drunk and hook up.’ Not unlike, their other generational brethrens of any other cultural or racial background…
Not surprising in itself, he says, but here’s the real problem:
It’s no real condemnation to say that 20 somethings act like 20 somethings but the disappointing part was that there was nothing at all very distinctly Indian about what was going on at the conference. Save for a few Bhangara beats spun by the many dj’s (South Asian’s seemingly new career focus) at the various mixers, no one else seemed particularly interested in their cultural ancestry.
Not that I was looking for Geeta study classes or how I could refine my sanskrit, but I did, for some reason, feel a profound sense of disappointment at the total lack of cultural definition that I witnessed. On the one hand, we - or at least I do A LOT - proclaim the Asian invasion, the India boom, the reverse brain drain, going from outsourcing to sourcing, etc etc, and yet, none of the above seemed at all evident from what I say from this small sliver of the Indian community. In fact, if anything, it seemed to me that these young South Asians were emulating others - African Americans, Latinos, in an effort to hijack some of their coolness.
To wit:
I saw more young Indians aching to look like Allen Iverson or Shakira than I could have ever imagines. Not only that, but the ways the guys strut, the fact that they actually - seriously - refer to each other as ‘niggah’ - with no hint of sarcasm - belies an absolute cultural inidentity.
Gotham’s finding:
Something is happening to us in the assimilation process. A quick snap shot of this weekend would tell you that a generation of 20 somethings is struggling some to find that anchor that roots them with some sort of distinctive identity. Clearly the culture of sex and bling and gangsta has found a very willing market amongst young South Asian Americans. Clearly, we/they/whomever is running away from something in our collective cultural ancestry and apparently running toward something more culturally amorphous.
Damn! Clearly the brother was traumatized by what he witnessed, and he raises some substantive concerns about what it all means for the culture. But on the other hand, it’s clear he was dealing with an extremely skewed sample — college kids attending a conference notorious for the behavior he decries, sited in Miami no less — and I’d also be interested to know the socio-economic background of the attendees, to get a sense of how much this is an upper middle class suburban malady.
Far be it from my avuncular ass to speak for a generation I’m old enough to have sired, but I’d like to respond to Gotham’s worries with a counter-hypothesis. Maybe the kids are alright. Maybe, in fact, they’re just being dumb privileged kids like dumb privileged kids do the world over, and though it’s ugly to watch, it’s not that big a deal as long as they pay for the material damage and no one gets hurt. (Which isn’t always the case in these settings, of course, especially with respect to sexual assault.)
Frankly I’m more concerned about desi kids who don’t have the money for plane fare and hotel rooms, even if they had the inclination to begin with. The working class kids. And also: The Muslim kids, who face the worst of suspicion and discrimination in the American climate today. The Sikh kids, especially the boys, staring at a lifetime of towelhead insults. The off-the-boat immigrant kids with unstable visa prospects. You know, the kids with more serious issues to deal with than whether to do a tenth year of bharatnatyam training or what do to when you wake up hungover and soaked in your own vomit.
Now I know Gotham and crew check out our site, so brother, don’t take this the wrong way — I really do feel your pain, plus you’re a fellow New England Patriots fan, so you know you my nigga macaca, dawg — but at the end of the day, I think that handwringing over the cultural decay of the young and ignorant is something that we who are getting older can afford to forgo. Spiritually speaking, at least. Economically, of course, if a core proposition of your business ventures is to sell high-priced cultural authenticity products to well-off young desis, then you’ve got a whole ‘nother problem.
siddhartha on January 16, 2007 10:26 AM in Identity · T·r·a·c·k·b·a·c·k address · Direct link · Email post
Also, there's a Pats fan in the bunker?!? I knew there was a reason (beyond your excellent taste in music) that I was so partial to you, Siddhartha!
Ah. The older generation are so wise, so sage, so mature ...
I want to be like Brimful and Siddhartha when I grow up!
[ducking various heavy objects coming at my head]
It's all very well for Gotham to write his opinion, in fact there is a lot of truth in what he is saying...but I'd be interested in knowing how much the Chopra clan has maintained links to the Punjabi language and the Punjabi culture (SPECIFICALLY the Punjabi culture and not just the general northern Indian culture)...not much, I suspect. They too have probably "run away from something in their cultural ancestry and are apparently running toward something more culturally amorphous".
You're lucky you live so far away, Ennis, so that you don't have to dodge, duck, dive, and dodge!
Hip-hop culture is "cool." My brother and his white friends from Connecticut dress like a bunch of thugs blaring hip-hop from their respective Audis. From my experience, this seems to be a result of privelege. Granted, I don't find it alarming at all, it's quite amusing. Plus, now I know East and West coast rap.
Why is it so important to retain the "Indian" identity anyways? And why is it important to worry about it so much? Isn't it a good thing in a way that these kids are so comfy having fun in this country?
As siddhartha says, these kids are probably all right, no more or less f*cked up than any other kids :)
A new species identifyed. I predict Vanity Fair picks up the term.
Also take into account that everyone is 'expected' to act this way at SASA. I bet some of these kids who were busy hooking and drinking up would return to normal college life as A students who rarely party. SASA is an excuse to act like you may not normally act - because everyone else around you is doing it. The same goes for parties in general, but this is the ultimate party, so obviously bad behavior is multiplied.
agreed, it's status quo.
As is probably the case with many readers of SM, I rebelled against the ISA/SASA scene when I was in college because it seemed totally soul-less to me. But, I didn't participate in the Greek scene for the same reason. I think Siddhartha makes a good point that this examination is of a very particular demographic, so I'm not all that worried about the "kids." Just a browse around the blogosphere and a look at those that are written by young desis, outside of SM, eliminates any remaining worry I have. South Asians in the U.S. are doing well in terms of carving out a niche for themselves while at the same time adding to the U.S. culture as a whole. The kids are going to turn out fine.
Sriram...do you have some examples??
Could someone explain to me why the hip-hop culture has become so big in the some South Asian groups. Last year when I was in the Fresno, California area for my cousins wedding, I can't not recall how many times I heard my cousin friends call each other the "N" word. After a while it starts to get to you.
Also being new to the Vancouver area, the South Asian culture among young men has been mixed the hip-hop culture. Sad thing about this is, that some young men have taken this to far, as over 100 young men of South Asian of last there lives to brown on brown violence the last 10 years.
I have to be honest I'm clueless about why this is going on. Can anybody explain this to me
Just look at the "friends" and "other blogs we read" lists on the sidebar of SM's main homepage. By "outside of SM," I meant those who don't blog for SM in particular.
Hot beatz laid down with mad skillz and lightning fast rhythm punctuated by a ice cold flow?
Yes -- have you seen her website? It's priceless.
Ach...let the kids be kids. Do you know how amazing it must be to grow up in the midwest and the suddenly be in an environment with hundreds of sexy Indians, I mean people who look the same as you, how can your atavistic Indian hormones resist the chance to get nekkid and dance with brown skin like yours? Stop being such an Uncle, Gotham, son of the man who has done more to McDonald-ise Indian culture and spirituality in KFC sized buckets of new age guff than anyone else alive.
I don't have an explanation for you, but it seems to be the same problem that affect young, suburban, North American males of any racial/ethnic background (see: Columbine).
Beautiful!
I'm not sure why it's so big with South Asian groups in particular, probably b/c hip-hop culture seems to be main-stream these days. I remember subbing in Connecticut and all the kids from elementary to high school wanted to listedn to Hot 93.7 b/c that was the station that played hip-hop.
Even my husband (Stanford Law School alum) wore hip-hop attire in his highschool days. I had to burn his thuggish jeans that could have fit 5 hubbies. He still proudly listens to West Coast rap on his way to his firm every morning.
great post, siddhartha. It's hard to separate how much of this is typical youth culture and how much is distinctily desi-american.
i do believe, however, that the overall economic comfort level of many in our community produces a sort of jarring ennui in social interactions. i've met so many desis who have this blase attitude towards everything, from activism to handshakes to casual conversation. as someone who has organized desi conferences for years, i can tell you that it's a difficult thing to get many people talking about "issues." which makes me wonder: are we elitist, or just socially maladroit?
Uhm, that last comment was in reference to this:
To be more serious, I do think that there is a lack of structure to maintain an American-Desi identity. You are largely forced to choose, and this is unhealthy. If you decide not to follow the expectations and values of a "good Desi" (that fictional Desi who does nothing but study, desires nothing more than a medical degree, interacts with nobody but other Desis, and whose involvement with sexuality starts and ends with an arranged marriage), you get all sorts of static from the institutions meant to instill an appreciation of the "home" culture. Try taking a non-Desi friend (or, even better, partner) to a temple or mosque. You won't get a warm reception.
Now yeah, many of us will be fine regardless. We'll figure out a niche, and establish our own points of reference. But that identity is going to be syncretic, and it'll involve as many embarassing offshoots as successes. I'd argue that these SASA bacchanalias are one of those offshoots (but hey, it's a popular one -- maybe the Mutineers are the offshoot). But I bet we would see some really amazing things happen if there were more outlets for young South Asians to feel comfortable being simultaneously American and from the Desh. I think sites like SM are definitely part of that structure, but it has its own limitations.
White kids who take the hip-hop thing too far are called wiggers, is there a name for south asian kids who do the same thing.
diggers?
dorks?
Blindian or Higgers. But "dork" is better.
Gotham is getting old. He needs a hearty welcome to the 30s. I feel his pain everyday but I generally chalk it off to "fucking stupid kids" and move on.
but JOAT, you have to admit that he was a hottie mchot for a while :)
JaneofAlltrades
Don't worry about it --- don't you know that the 30's are the new 20's? We are still young.
I have a hard time understanding Gotham's disappointment as well as others here about desis who take on mannerisms associated with Black and Latino cultures. This sort of elitism usually comes from desis who take on white mannerisms and are usually embarrased by the ones acting all "ghetto" in front of their white colleagues. Now the kids who do act black or spanish are usually embarrasing, but no more embarassing than many of the crackerish euphemisms used by many who post here. The truth is that desis don't have any actual mannerisms of their own and need to copy others.
Aw man, so you mean there's a whole nother decade of angst after this one now?
Fuck
Living here in Vancouver area, it seems like most young south asian male things he Tupac or Allen Iverson. The hardest part is trying to understand the new language which they speak. It's a mix of English, Punjabi and Eubonics.
There are two types of hip-hop inspired brownz. The first type grew up in communities like Jersey City and attended local schools; their vibe is completely normal, unaffected, organic - and if you asked them to turn it off they wouldn't know how. And then there's the suburbanite variety - completely affected and easily called out, sort of a tribal mask, to be removed once the debauched sacrificing and celebrating has come to a conclusion.
not true. the side-to-side head bob will always be ours. i try to keep it alive, despite the looks of bewilderment :)
Sid (and everyone else)
Interesting comments - me like the dialogue. I'm not gonna say where I moved because I will get crucified herein.
Agreed - small sampling as SASA so it is what it is. And I am getting really old to have such thin skin. But that's life - I'll confide in my wife about these crazy kids and move on. The upside - Kal Penn - that crazy terrorist - and I are now "higgers" err dorks.
What a Pats game, huh?
Down with Peyton!!!!!
gc
I had to look up Saira after that. Guess vot? the perfect face's from montreal - and dont be talking about nympho's. montreal girls are just that - desirous and desirable in the refreshing way - like a draft of crisp, clean winter air and just a touch of frost - leaves the skin tingling, puts a ruddy glow to the cheeks, a spring in the step and a moistness to the eye.
interesting post.
gotham is probably experiencing the first signs of being on the other side of the generation gap. getting old has its perquisites, but crankiness at the youth is not one of them.
in my ta'ing days, i once had a student whose name was jignesh, whose email was snoopdawggydawgg@... and whose pants settled comfortably around the ankles (or thereabouts). after the first class, he came up to me and speaking in a tone that came just short of calling me the n-word, said, "prof, i'm going to get an a in this course! i promise you, man! i promise you!" needless to say, he never attended another class.
Is the desi who live the hip-hop culture thing cross all desi backgrounds. After having spend time in both Vancouver and central Califronia[Fresno], I have noticed its very popular among 1st and 2nd generation punjabi youth, but for some reason 3rd and 4th generation punjabi kids I have not seen it as much.
Is this the same among Gurjarti, Bengali, Parsi and other desi groups. I have not spend much time with other desi groups to have any idea about this.
Yes for the Bengalis I know including younger brother and cousins.
A gem. Up with Asante, Ellis, Richard, Vince, Ty, Tedy, Mike, Rosevelt, and hopefully Rodney!
What do you mean? I still think he's hot. And mchot ???
Oh gosh I was being scarcastic. :-)
First of all go to any high school, every kid of every race these days is trying to be black...white, chinese everyone. And I'll tell you why I find the mannerisms offensive. The dirty verbal extent of the so called 'elitiest' culture at best is f bombs, the word asshole and shit thrown around liberaly. Woopdee! But the stuff that comes out of the kids that emulate hip hop culture is not just disgusting and disrespectful it is generally the attitudes towards women, money, work, wealth that gets me angry.
I grew up on 80s music and perhaps that makes me old but I didn't listen to offensive shit and hence wasn't influenced by the offensive stuff. Look at some of the top hip hop songs on the radio at the moment....Smack that, Moneymaker, I wanna love you.
Its offensive period and I don't give a shit about being offended because it's offending my white collegue because my white collegue's little brother is listening and emulating the same shit and it's his problem just as much as mine.
A gem. Up with Asante, Ellis, Richard, Vince, Ty, Tedy, Mike, Rosevelt, and hopefully Rodney!
Don't forget "the anointed one" - Jabar....
Isn't hip-hop THE culture, nowadayz?
But c'mon JoAT, there's been a longstanding battle within rap for years. It's not as though that's the only stuff out there, or even the only stuff that's successful. If you had been listening to rap in the 80s you would have been hearing some awesome Native Tongues stuff that really defined
And misogyny is not a problem limited to rap. It's been the most written about (for some reason), but there are a lot of misogynistic, objectivistic elements in popular music. ESPECIALLY pop-rock. All of those 80s hair and metal bands were utter jerks when it came to women. Have you ever heard an interview with Gene Simmons? He sounds like some small-town uncle. Tommy Lee? Kid Rock? David Lee Roth? These people are assholes. But even before that -- dig up some lyrics to classic jazz and blues before they were elevated to "Real Art Forms". You'll find the same themes apply -- sexuality, disrespect, a parochial outlook. Poor people's music tends to reflect those elements. But it's also some of the most innovative, interesting music around.
I honestly love rap because it's about the only style of American music right now that even attempts to say something about the fucked up elements of our society. Granted, it's buried under gloss and sex, but under even the most idiotic bling & crunk rapper there's at least a core of discontent. Indie rock doesn't talk about class. Punk doesn't give two shits about race. Kelly Clarkson isn't going to sing about injustice. Rap still means something (at least some of it does). So don't write it off so quickly.
What a Pats game, huh? Down with Peyton!!!!!
Yes, but the Colts are not going to lose in the Dome. My prediction: Colts 28; Patriots 14
This phenomenon has been around for at least 10 years. I made the mistake of going to a SASA "conference" at Rutgers a long time ago (we're talking mid-90s). Even back then the desi college guys were doing the hip hop slang thing. I attributed this to two factors: (1) Most of the crowd was from NY/NJ so maybe the east coast hip hop thing was in effect, (2) the party crowd that went to SASA events represented the more mixed up, thugged out demographic of desis, but didn't obviously represent the whole of the desi college-age crowd.
Sounds like things haven't changed a bit. :-)
This is so funny to me, maybe b/c I semi-fall into the SASA demographic. Honestly, people worry too much. I think the biggest identity debate folks have within the college crowd (and the folks looking back on the college crowd) are debates over authenticity and belonging. These things are so ridiculous - of course SAsian-American identity is not going to be static, and of course it's going to be a hybrid mix of things. I think this is where the beauty in it is. I think the downside is the lack of community-consciousness when it comes to discussing issues that effect folks across the spectrum.
Also, in terms of desis, identity, and hip hop, my favorite academic writing on this subject is Nitasha Sharma, who has her own fun multi-culti life story. In terms of the actual musical beats and political identity, it's not surprising that desis on both ends of the socioeconomic spectrum are buying in.
Neal I'm not disregarding anything you are saying. I just find the general in your face bling/sex/ho's/nigga's/pimps business incredibly overwhelming and find it hard to not be offended by it hence my response to Shankara Ahmed who thinks that the offense is elitist at best!
And honestly in the 80s if the pop stars were freaks and total assholes in their personal lives I never cared or noticed. It was all about the videos and music but the video's were clean, the music for the most part was pretty harmless, there were no nearly naked ass grinding images in my face. Sure I had big 80s hair and even a mullet at one point and I wanted to dress like Cindy Lauper but come on the fashions were incredibly dowdy and amusing at best.
Of course someone from the 50s would have a different opinion. I just hate to have the offense dismissed as "generational" or "elitist".
Very interesting post. I have to admit that I have an odd fascination with IntentBlog, not because of all the drippy new-age commentary (including that of the Big D), but for those occasional posts by Gotham (originally Gautama) and his big sister, Mallika (who seems sappily obsessed with all things motherhood).
It's like watching a reality TV show (Chopra Knows Best?). You've got two Desi American kids who enjoy some of the perks of trusthood and celebrity (by virtue of their Dad and his connections, they can publish books, start businesses, travel the globe, mingle on the fringes of celebrity culture, and not have to work for the sake of earning a paycheck), but are also generally anonymous in mainstream America. Because of this anonymity, they are somewhat grounded in the reality of the rest of us, except with a lot more time to contemplate their belly buttons.
Setting aside the snarkiness for a moment, the Chopras are an obviously tight-knit and functional clan. That, most of all, is what brings me back for more.
HA! Exactly! Great post Siddhartha.
Might I add that the core proposition here isn't selling authenticity to fellow desis as much as selling to non-desis, who aren't going to buy up the Mystical/Englightened/Eastern/Spiritual publum of Chopraji if they see Indian kids puking up their redbullvodkas just like their own non-desi kids do. Desi kids gotta maintain, yo! How's dad gonna sell his books and video tapes otherwise? Will some publishing type offer another cool million for dad to write "his interpretation" of the kama sutra when a very visible generation of Indians seem to get their kits off just like the Amrikans do? Don't think so.
Gotham (he changed his own name, from what I've heard) seems sincere and genuine in his outrage. But I found his tirade too funny.
Love the title of the post, btw. Did you mean to reference the Ryan McGinley show?
Also, echoing back to what Siddhartha mentioned in his post, I think it's hard to talk about desi identity without getting into the socioeconomic issues. The book is outdated and regionally specific, but Sunaina Maira's Desis in the House addresses this a bit.
Hip-hop that has a message, more often then not does not sell well vs sexist and thug hip-hop.
80's hair metal was sexist like todays hip-hop but it died off in 1992 when they were killed by the the Seattle grunge bands including Soundgarden led by there desi guitarist Kim Thayil.
Whodat? I was referring to the original coinage by The Who.
True, but there are exceptions. Kanye West, for example.
Although I will admit that party-rap and activist-rap have been splitting for quite some time. They used to be much more connected in rappers like Snoop Dogg (a pale zizzle of his old self) and Wu-Tang. And of course Tupac.
Who is Ryan McGinley? Must be g-g-g-generational thing.
Speaking of ... doesn't every generation get their romanticized thugs? Sinatra (off-screen), Amitabh (on-screen). How different are they from these studio gangstas?
Devil always had fancy clothes. And if Woody Allen's to be believed hell has AC ("f***s up the ozone layer").
Why is there no rapper on Amreekan Idhol?
BTW..Tupac and Snoop are sublime when they hit their groove. And i am speaking from presque Uncledom :-)
Yep.
As for this:
I second Red Snapper @ 17.
People, if you're worried about desi kids, don't get your panties in a bunch when they do what kids in general do, especially the privileged desi kids who can afford to bypass or circumvent the shit that comes with growing up desi (or reap their fringe benefits of that baggage, i.e. 10 years of bharatnatayam and such).
Yes!! Siddhartha da, we should all grow up to be like you :D
Younger folks acting like fools is nothing new. If the older fools have done their jobs right, by setting the type of example they want to be followed, by being what they wish their kids to become, then yes, the kids will be alright.
Gotham (is that even his real name?) with his 90s boy band hairstyle seems to be aping the 90s boy band/white frat boy culture. I wonder if he thinks that gives him sort of moral highground to comment on the hip-hop culture. Or is he just pandering to the older desi netizens who are perpetually paranoid about their "culture" being hijacked?
That's a thin argument :-) Look at the Billboard top 20 right now. Every single one of the hip hop songs is offensive, almost every one of the non hip hop songs is not and not saying they didn't exist once...LL Cool J, hell even Will Smith. I loved them both.
Some of the most popular hip-hop of the day is quite hair-raising. I accidentally heard the uncensored version of "I want to love you" (let's just say the verb was a bit different). Damn near spilled my Metamucil. Crazy kids.
I love cranky rants tho. Props to Gotham!
i think it's a little unfair to judge the entire genre based on what's effectively pop music. looking at the billboard charts, you'd think that my chemical romance was the end all of rock music and the ying yang twins the best of the indie music scene.
Yeah, but the cultural landscape has changed too. The pop charts are, by and large, dominated either by hip hop artists or (at LEAST) hip hop producers. The only genres that have no rap influence are the ones directly reacting against it, leaving limp crap like Linkin Park and 30 Seconds to Mars.
Although if you're arguing that pop is "clean" these days, I'll just say one word: Fergilicious.
Also, JoAT, while I'm completely taking this in a fun spirit, you've inspired me to search out raunchy 80s music videos on YouTube when I get home just to prove they existed. ;)
If we're going to be old and fusty, let's get out target right. American pop culture in general is deeply vulgar and exploitative right now. It's a real problem and it carries some severe social costs now and in the future. But pinning it on hip-hop misses the point. It's coming from all corners. Just read any entertainment magazine or gossip page or sites like Gawker and Defamer. And if you insist on pinning blame on someone or something, never forget to follow the money.
Very good points. I'm no cultural historian, but hasn't American popular culture been considered vulgar since the roaring 20s? Maybe the 40's and 50's less so, but other than those two decades, conservatives have been in in uproar for the better part of the last 100 years. So this is really nothing new. As for the underground vs. popular hip hop debate, this debate exists or has existed in just about any genre of music, it's just that hip-hop culture happens to be at the forefront at this particular time.
I'm of the opinion that when it comes to culture, the people get what they ask for and what they deserve. If people who absorb culture don't demand more, than I don't fault the powers that be for appealing to the lowest common denominator and making a buck in the process.
There are two types of hip-hop inspired brownz. The first type grew up in communities like Jersey City and attended local schools; their vibe is completely normal, unaffected, organic - and if you asked them to turn it off they wouldn't know how.
Jersey City represent! Risible, you just climbed up several notches in my book.
And a big WORD to mam (#59).
The direction of the discussion was about why the hip hop cultural emulation was offensive to Gotham. What is the point of discussing ALL music when THE music that is popular is the one that is offensive?
indeed, Gotham (all i can think of is Batman when i see his name) has stumbled onto one of the issues with assimilation: that you don't always get the good stuff, sometimes the "not so good" seeps in to.
i agree with other readers who hypothesize that the behavior on display at the SASA conference is most often displayed by the moneyed and priveledged. its easy to live in a lifestyle of hedonism when you have nothing else to worry about. in fact, people get famous for their pursuit of booze and booty. Exhibit A: Paris Hilton.
on a more serious note, there does seem to be a slightly different approach to cultural identity in the 20something crowd. there is certainly SASA to look at, but also extrapolating from my own experience and those of my 21 year old sis and 19 y.o brother, being indian doesn't seem to come with a set of expectations for behavior, behavior, and appearance. Gotham, for all his 30 years, seems like he did grow up with that cross to bear, as i sure many SM readers did too.
societal expectations shape us just as much as we shape them.
I'm not sure why but it has its origins in the UK and Canada. What's even funnier than South Asians immitating African Americans are caucasians imitating South Asians imitating African Americans...you ever seen Ali G? I believe the dialect he speaks has been coined "Londonstani."
Also, a shoutout to anyone who was at the Global Vision conference in DC in 1993 to commemorate the 100th anniversary of something having to do with Swami Vivekananda. At age 17 it was the most bitchin' time I ever had in my life (yes, I realize that line is stolen from the movie Dazed and Confused with regards to the '68 Democratic Convention...just goes to show that some things never change).
Music is supposed to be offensive :) otherwise kids wouldn't like it...
Kanye listens to 3,6 and Rick Ross and TI's favorite
rapper is KRS-1. A little ass shaking never hurt anyone...
HIP HOP - yo seriously all you people don't say anything about hip hop, you sound like a bunch of morons. Do your history young uns.
1) There are two types of hip hop 1)hip hop for white people and 2)real hip hop
2) hip hop for white people is controlled by industry, Arista, SONY, BMG, some tall israeli is running this rap game! This is what you classify as pop hip hop. Its crap fodder for the white suburbs, there is nothing at all. Even further real hip hop artists think its a step in the backwards direction, i agree, African americans went from Miles Davis and Art Blakey to idiots like Lil Wayne, who rap about "i make it rain on dem hoes" The white man figured out how to turn this hip hop problem into a way to keep the ghetto even more ghetto. Cause who doesn't want BLING!?
3) real hip hop is from the block, this is poetry put to a beat. Historically poetry and jazz are the roots of hip hop. Perhaps you should watch "ScratcH" that will give you a good idea, also Krush Groove, about Russell simmons and Def Jam. Not that these give you a lesson, but more of a clue.
The people with messages are never going to make it on the radio, few have made it with real messages. List a few that are barely there, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Immortal Technique, Aesop Rock, Atmosphere, etc. Mole Men label out in chitown.
I was once an ignorant ass, i went out to chitown, Southside, learned from the best. Mass Hysteria, real hip hop. Geefield taught me about the history from Africa Bambatta to Rakim to Big L. He himself learned to rhyme from the OG(old gansta) who taught Jurrasic 5 to rhyme. I learned how to make beats, met KRS-1. I'm in the process of getting crap like RDB, and all these UK bitches to make real hip hop with desi flavor, not some arificially manufactured crap by some rich desi kids who have 5 grand to blow on a nice studio. From the heart, the Mos Def of India.
You all think that HIP HOP isn't that BAD.
Let me open pandora's box. Find the song: louis logic - the ugly truth
We'll see how cool you people are after hearing that?
YO I'M JUST TRYING TO HELP OUT DESI PEOPLE. This forum seems to have no one who has any real knowledge about hip hop.
Ques- If you're a blindian, where will you find someone that would be threatened by you?
Ans- SASA, only other blindians think you're hard.
I hope one steps to me soon, i want to rob him and call his parents.
Because your definition of "THE music" is tendentious. Generalizing about hip-hop in 2007, thirty years after its birth and at a point where it has influenced and received influences from almost every corner of pop culture, is like generalizing about rock music in 1985. It can be done, but it's of limited analytic worth.
Now, if you want to talk about exploitation and hyper-sexualization and crass materialism in popular culture, we can do that. There's plenty of material to support the claim that our culture today is saturated wth those messages, and I would agree with you that that is cause for deep concern.
OK we can argue on semantics if you wish. From the article it doesn't seem like he's judging them solely on their taste in music but rather how their cultural interaction is influenced by it and it's a fair judgement for what it's worth. And even if I tried it's hard to get away from popular music in NYC and not be offended. It's not just listen to the music and trash talking but larger life choices and attitudes that seep into society that music today seems to influence in ways I didn't see it influence before.
siddartha,
can you give me some books to read, i want to learn to write like you.
PREACH it, brother!
I just hope the kids' knuckles are all right.
Not all worn out from the wazzupping.
"but larger life choices and attitudes that seep into society that music today seems to influence in ways I didn't see it influence before."
JOAT this is a really interesting quote...what did you mean by it? Just curious.
The Paris Hiltonication of taste? Is the music too pervasive somehow..(are kids dumber :( ?
Neal - hell ya bro, very few desi's know their shit, props bro. since you're in chitown(lakeshore drive in your blog) you should check out Mass Hysteria, they're ill, they opened for Ghostface a couple months back. They're mostly in the southside tho, so ya, its dope, just go with a friend who's black.
glass houses - kids aren't getting dumber(well maybe like SATs and book wise). Corporate Marketing is ridiculous, they know more about the kids than themselves, they can easily target kids and get them to listen to their crap. Theres a reason more kids can recognize Ronald McDonald than George Washington.
I do think that with the advent of the internet kids have access to a lot more music, so many aren't idiots.
Pop culture today is negatively influenced by popular music today which unfortunately consists of a lot of hip hop. I don't see why discussing that aspect of it is always taken as an assault on the entire hip hop genre. The defensiveness prevents any dialog about it. If I were to add Paris Hilton and Gawker and Perez Hilton and Britney Spears to the list of things that tear at the fabric of a good society; will the dilution of the blame make that much of a difference?
"I don't see why discussing that aspect of it is always taken as an assault on the entire hip hop genre"
Because the larger media as a whole lumps all Hip Hop into the flavor of the month chart-toppers so those of us who love the Jungle Brothers, X-Clan, and Gangstarr are in constant defense mode :)
Janeofalltrades -
I've never heard of anything so ridiculous. NYC is by far the BEST place in the world to get away from popular music. As a promoter in the city, there are so many clubs, you can find anything you want to hear. I mean come on. Ya some of our venues like Marquee, Home, Bed, AER have to be popular music, because they want to make money. These are clubs whos patrons are wealthy idiots who don't have time to listen to music, bankers, execs, lawyers, (person with money),etc. Either way if you want punk, hip hop, bhangra, salsa, techno, transe, house, never ends, its in the city somewhere.
glass house - shout out to Guru and Primo, Gangstarr is SICK! have you heard Guru's Jazzmatazz albums? and ya bro i hear ya, gotta jump into defense mode like everyday in the office
Music today emphasizes money and sex and very little of anything else. Not as if videos were about education before but the over-sexuality, utter lack of respect for each other or women and general apathy towards society, the law, education that is portrayed in popular music is quite visible in real life. Observe a bunch of kids outside a high school and you'll see a lot of that.
Because you (and, to be fair, Gotham) brought up "hip hop" (and "acting black") generally.
Cocopuffs I'm going to refrain from responding to anyone who has written all that you have and yet thinks something I've written is ridiculous.
It's getting hot in hurr!
Yes and as we go in circles again, is that observation wrong? Is gangsta hip hop NOT hip hop? Perhaps I haven't been paying attention.
Cocopuffs,
Years ago I was blessed when a friend of mine took me to see Primo at work in D&D (back when it was D&D)..One of the highlights of my life!
Long story short, it is soooo not worrying about this.
If someone said "rock music encourages kids to worship Satan", would you assume they were only talking about death metal?
"Observe a bunch of kids outside a high school and you'll see a lot of that."
JOAT is this any different than James Dean, Rebel Without a Cause Days? (other than the fact that kids don't wear as many high cut red windbreakers)...not to justify just to say...do you perceive a qualitative and/or quantitative difference in the nature of the violence/misogeny as seen in say high school students which can be attributed to an overarching, materialistic youth culture (as promoted by Sumner Redstone, Lyor Cohen etc..)
There is no satan worship lyrics in mainstream music that everyone is emulating in their daily life right now. I'll cross that bridge and call that spade when I get to it.
As Siddhartha reminded us, HipHop is nearly 30 years old...
Us SA's may be new to the party, and HipHop may be more culturally pervasive now than it has ever been, but HipHop influences more than just kids.
Once upon a time, I used to have a rap-is-so-juvenile attitude. As an FOB grad student, i tentatively dated a 35-year-old suit (15 years older than me). Can't ever forget how mature and in control *i* felt as his old-skool HipHop kicked in on the car stereo :) . But as i learned, there's more to it than rhyming "rich" to "bitch." And it isn't about wannabe "Wiggas" and thugs--there's a bunch of highly successful people out there who tuned into HipHop, Jamaican dancehall etc., a long, long time ago.
Highly recommended: Dave Chappelle's Block Party.
Camille, love that "CNN for N***as" quote!
The 'rebel without a cause' culture was simply about rebelling not materialism, it wasn't about jewelry and Cristal and driving around in expensive luxury trucks/cars or shooting anyone, there certainly was no hyper sexuality involved and there was no romanticizing about misogyny.
I think I am however done with all I would have to say about this issue. Obviously I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me :-)
I'm just drawing an analogy. You're characterizing a whole style of music by a very specific subset.
Here ok, I'll make it more "realistic": a parent, on listening to her kids' music, could say "rock music makes kids suicidal" thanks to incredibly popular emo bands like Death Cab for Cutie or My Chemical Romance. Would that be an appropriate statement? Would it describe "rock" as you know it?
Damn son. I work for a few hours, get back to the thread and it sounds like somebodies myspace page up in here.
Neal,
You keep offering me the same analogies in different format. Perhaps you are trying to change my mind. I can't tell you with any more conviction that I cannot stand popular hip hop that is playing on the radio today and nothing you will tell me will change my mind about that. See my response # 79 to Siddhartha about the whole 'all hip hop' notion.
JOAT and others:
I just looked at the top 100 songs on iTunes.
Of the 100, 22 are labeled "explicit."
Of the 22 "explicit," 11 are listed as "hip-hop/rap," and 11 are listed as "rock," "pop," or "alternative."
Make of these data what you will.
Because that's a pretty insular attitude and I thought you had a more open mind. :(
Anyway, ok, subject closed, etc...
But you're not going to stop me from YouTubing bad 80s music videos tonight.
Start with Duran Duran's not for prime time video of Girls on Film!!
The kind of hip-hop that most young south asians are into is "bling bling" hip hop. Not the hip-hop of Mos Def.
Mos Def has more talent then Lil Wayne. But Lil Wayne type of hip hop sell more CD's.
Few years ago you had Rock-Metal thing from 99 to 2002 when Limp Bizkit and Kid Rock became big. That was horrible when rock and alternative radio for a couple of years played this crap.
Analogies / parallels
We do have our own gangsta rap in the form of Bollywood.
Shitty attitude towards women. Check. Materialism. Check. Glorifying thuggish asshollery. Check.
Yet, people like Hrishikesh Mukherji and Sai Paranjpe managed to make good movies.
JoAT-- I think the concern is that a whole genre isn't dismissed because of the most repulsive and yet commercially successful section of it. A bit like knocking Yanni because of Thelonius Monk (or vice versa) - both are known for 'weird piano music w/o lyrics' but equally worthwhile?
From this WaPo article-
Janeofalltrades - Question, do you know anything about the music industry, hip hop or even youth culture? No seriously, i ask you, you don't have any kids? your niece and nephew are very little can't possibly be into youth culture? do you work in a highschool or participate in youth groups? Do you have any background in the music industry? do you know any artists? Do you know how it works...really works? Have you ever lived in the ghetto...anywhere? Do you even know black people?
Honestly if you did, you wouldn't have this attitude. You talk down to me like i'm some ignorant un-educated ass, without any background.
Its easy to pass judgement with no information living in your sheltered 3k/month apartment in midtown.
Anyone have a comment on the statement Nas made on his latest album that's he's "not going back to the ghetto"?
You are trying to get me to love music I hate? And that makes me closed minded? Well so be it then :-)
:-) Cool.
Wow, there's so much I want to add to this discussion, but I'm already late for class. (Where do you people find the time?!) I will say that cocopuffs, Camille, Neal, and Siddhartha have once again proven themselves as masterless samurai, especially with:
Word to the third! And don't forget to give props to the Bay's own Zion I, always keeping it real and fresh.
No, I'm trying to get you to see that the stuff you hate is a very small portion of a huge, diverse, and complicated body of work. But whatever, peace.
#103
Why all the haterade at JOAT? So she's got some nice stuff. So what. Quit hatin'.
I know she can take care of herself and all but I've seen this before. Young, angry, early twenties/late teens, resenting her. And she actually has a good blog that lets you get to know her in a 'real' sense.
Personally, I can't stand when Indian guys act thuggish. I don't like it on Black people either, but it seems extra silly to emulate a