Maybe this will make the Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian. Although Shilpa is better than most in terms of maintaining some Indian culture and representing. My comments are aimed more at the likes of Abhishek, Preiti Zinta, Saif Ali Khan, etc.

Oh, and Hrithik Roshan too.

Much respect to Shilpa for dealing with these fools in a classy manner.

Maybe this will make Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian

How does their speaking fluent english make them less Indian?

wha? is that photo doctored?

the guy on the left looks like a filmi actor from yesteryear. I'm sure you all know him. can't think of the name.

amitabh,

Maybe this will make the Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian.

you're kind of repeating,

...Shilpa was also the victim of a lot of bullying and even some acts of racism from some of the housemates (especially the ladies). Over the past few days, fellow participants have called Shilpa “dog, “”The Indian,” and have even mocked her accent.

A lot of the population is racist even when it is agreed that racism is bad.

A few years ago, racism was an opinion---a "scientific" and definitely widely accepted opinion at that. Makes me wonder abt all that desis had to endure before independence. And what they, along with many other ethnicities have to endure in most of the middle east. And a significant part of continental europe which doesn't even measure up anywhere near UK or the US in fairness.

How does their speaking fluent english make them less Indian?

shireen, amitabh means that howsoever westernized/ like a typical westernized person you become (be it from Bollywood or otherwise), there is a divide that shows up in free-for-all reality show where the bitchiness is almost directed toward her ethnicity/ nationality.

indian cricket players have gone through this many times.

a lot of bollywood actors (or more so others) too really wanted to show in their behavior that they might as well be from UK/ USA. i think shilpa shetty is different from what i have read.

wha? is that photo doctored?

Maybe this will make the Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian. Although Shilpa is better than most in terms of maintaining some Indian culture and representing. My comments are aimed more at the likes of Abhishek, Preiti Zinta, Saif Ali Khan, etc.

Amitabh: I don't even know what to say to you...I can't really follow your comment.

i think a lot of it is plain jealousy. she is the only A-lister there except the former Ms. UK (who may become A-lister one day).

others are just washed out

a lot of bollywood actors (or more so others) too really wanted to show in their behavior that they might as well be from UK/ USA.

I really do not follow this. I mean, their accents, etc, seem pretty authentic Indian to me most of the time. Abhishek and Saif both have extremely privileged backgrounds, and that shows (ok, not so much on Abhishek :-D ) but I never got the feeling they are more American than Indian.

Abhishek and Saif both have extremely privileged backgrounds, and that shows

that is true. i am sorry for contributing to the distraction.

back to main topic, i do not think shilpa deserves it.

Dirk seems to have found some youth elixir... he's almost 62!

that is true. i am sorry for contributing to the distraction. back to main topic, i do not think shilpa deserves it.

Yes, true. But at the same time I am extremely uncomfortable with making it a lesson of any sort to Indians (as Amitabh does in #1).

bytewords @ #6 said:

A lot of the population is racist even when it is agreed that racism is bad.

I've been following this show. I don't think in this particular it is racism. The problem is they put Shilpa Shetty in with a bunch of Phony, Ignorant, Talentless, Morons who had delusions of being famous and probably imagined a nation flocking to the television to admire them(the ex-Miss England in particular). But Shilpa came in and they were relegated to servitude by a clever Big Brother and had to face reality: That without their PR mechanism and Tabloid promotion they are just silly girls with nothing to say, no knowledge and noone to care.

Three of the male celebrities left the building as if escaping their deaths and the tabloid dolls were left with a gay man and two older men to flirt with. These men, oblivious to the charms before them, turned to Shilpa for conversation, support and even flirtation(Shame on you Dirk Benedict ;). The beauties then turned into vicious tramps and started attaching any weakness shilpa had. These include cooking skills, facial hair, accent and niceness(class). Since a lot of this has to do with Shilpa's Indianness, it comes off as racist. In their jealous rage, "the three witches" as they are refered to in most of England now, don't realise their hippocracy and cruelty. When they come out, they will be in shock as to how they are perceived.

I'm interested in this because of the way Shilpa has been handling herself so far. I cant' wait till the breaking point (there always is) and she finds a backbone. It will be ugly and great television.

when the lights went out
in 2003
people talked,
said hello,
shared a cookie
with their neighbor.
even my withered self
had a love
who waited -
parched
and worried
by the fountain
out in the street.
Good memories they
of times past.
Almost as good
is the memory
that the tube was shut
and people talked
about you
and me
and
their lives
and did not need
to sit
drooling and asinine
in front of the fucking tube.
buddah sez
dont be a kook.
read a book.

Kush @ #9

Totally agree with you but a lot of people seem to disagree. Are Indians in UK more prone to complain about racism?

Off-topic: She is adorable with that afro and 70's getup

rasudha,

via your link on the news tab, i saw couple of segments of big brother on youtube.

that is for sure those girls do not like shilpa at all, and she is fighting back.

they are jealous but they (those girls) are definitely using ethnicity card, like eating with fingers, etc.

Yes, true. But at the same time I am extremely uncomfortable with making it a lesson of any sort to Indians (as Amitabh does in #1).

Sorry. Maybe that was inappropriate. But I'm kinda bitter at many in Bollywood...they earn their bread and butter (as well as the adoration of millions upon millions of fans) through Hindi cinema, and indirectly Indian culture (to the extent that Bollywood reflects or relies on Indian culture), but many of them have a disdain and a snobby disregard for that very culture and language. It's a joke on the fans which the fans don't even realise. Saif Ali Khan for example IS very American in terms of his real life personality and tastes. These actors are more in tune with a sort of extremely elite, English-speaking, westernised, 'South Bombay' worldview than with anything Indian. Their damn award shows for their Hindi movies ARE IN ENGLISH for crying out loud! How many actors in the 'Hindi' film industry do you think could conduct an off the cuff, unscripted, unrehearsed interview in Hindi (I'm not saying shuddh Hindi, just regular, colloquial Hindi)? Hrithik Roshan had to take Hindi classes with a tutor when he launched his acting career. Even Abhishek, son of an excellent Hindi speaker, and grandson of a HINDI POET, had to undergo intensive Hindi training when he decided to become an actor. Same thing with Vinod Khanna's kids. Have you ever seen Preiti Zinta talking in Hindi outside of a film (like in an interview or award show)? Word is that Kajol doesn't even really know how to speak it, and Ajay Devgan, although fluent, never speaks it offscreen. The only actors who are actually fluent in it are either older generation, or Muslim (like all the Khans for example) or did not grow up in Mumbai. My point is that these actors work in a certain industry, which exists through the medium of Hindi and Indian cultural references, and has given them everything in life, but most simply milk it for all it's worth in terms of fortune and fame, yet have no real appreciation or committment or emotional attachment to the language and culture which makes their lifestyles possible. In fact some have contempt for it. Yet their fans eat it all up. (I'm not including south Indian actors in this analysis by the way).

But I agree that Shilpa shouldn't have been treated like that, the British racism is disgusting, and anyway like I said I think she's one of the better ones, seems to be a more down to Earth person.

Kush @ #18

But what do you do if you want to attack someone in a jealous fit and they dont give you more material to work with. They ran thru everything from Shilpa's laugh to her facial hair to her cooking methods. They had a lot of time on their hands and resorted to attacking her country and countrymen. Does it mean racism as in they believe their race is superior. If anything they have a complex about themselves especially since Shilpa had a hard time understanding some of their pronounciation. And it is obvious Shilpa is better spoken than them.

The Bleach Incident

Things Turn Ugly

Amitabh (#19):

I agree with your sentiment. Though the problem is certainly not restricted to Bollywood. Most of the popular Indian writers, e.g. (Vikram Seth, Khushwant Singh, Salman Rushdie, Anita/Kiran Desai), come from privileged backgrounds, and not one of them can write convincingly of the common Indian experience.

More to the point, I am slightly surprised at Shilpa Shetty being described as an A-list celebrity. I can't even think of a single major Bollywood movie she was in. If she is described as A-list, the other people on Big Brother must be total wash-outs.

:Yet their fans eat it all up.
I wouldn't call myself a fan of movie actors but i do watch their movies sometime. Growing up in semi-rural North India I always cringed at it but what other options did i have? Sure i couldnt develop any respect for these guys(I didnt understand them anyway) but i couldnt really affect their bottom lines.
And also why blame movie actors alone, English is considered the language of educated/cool people by most. Knowledge of English is directly related to IQ in India.

I've been following this show. I don't think in this particular it is racism. The problem is they put Shilpa Shetty in with a bunch of Phony, Ignorant, Talentless, Morons who had delusions of being famous and probably imagined a nation flocking to the television to admire them(the ex-Miss England in particular).

Oh Rasudha, let's call a spade a spade! Calling Shilpa a "Paki," "the Indian" and mocking her accent is pretty racist to me. They may have been jealous or envious or whatever...and they used racist means to convey that! Just sayin'.

More to the point, I am slightly surprised at Shilpa Shetty being described as an A-list celebrity.

Her only hit is Phir Milenge. However, as a pinup girl, and as a spokeperson, she is very visible and marketable. She represents a lot of causes, and brands in India.

She is a A-list celebrity, not a A-list actress. You are mixing two different lists.

Being on Big Brother was to jump start her film career, and I guess on that sense, her handlers mis-guessed the whole thing.

Ansur @23

If you'd look at my comment @20, I feel there is a difference between ugly behavior, bullying or whatever and "racism". She wasn't called a 'paki', according to Big Brother. That is false reporting. Each person in there has different insecurities but none of them, I believe, think they are a superior race. Asian Brits seem to find racism everywhere.

She is a A-list celebrity, not a A-list actress. You are mixing two different lists.

Yeah, I guess.
wikipedia has a lot of interesting info about her btw, such as, her native tongue is Tulu, and alleged contacts with the mafia (that explains why she has been so reasonable ;) ) .

Why is Abhi anti-Shilpa? He wants only Aishwariya posts?

More to the point, I am slightly surprised at Shilpa Shetty being described as an A-list celebrity.

She has some hit movies in the south, in Tamil and Telugu. Dunno about kannada.

Kush,

Her only hit is Phir Milenge

Baazigar was a monster hit. Dus, Darna Mana Hai, were successes. Her item song in the arthouse film Shool was huge.

I agree with your other points on the attitudes of some of the mainstream Hindi cinema actors.

Quizman, I stand corrected.

If you'd look at my comment @20, I feel there is a difference between ugly behavior, bullying or whatever and "racism". She wasn't called a 'paki', according to Big Brother. That is false reporting. Each person in there has different insecurities but none of them, I believe, think they are a superior race.

Rasudha, I'll agree that the other Big Brother contestants most likely don't believe in the coming of the Fourth Reich or donate their spare change to crazy eugenics programs. But why did they feel the need to bring up her ethnicity? Were they racialist but not racist? I dunno. I'm pretty convinced Shilpa wasn't called "The Indian" because she was a random unidentified straggler who just happened to be in the camera's way. Judging from the statements of other contestants as well as the viewers' opinions, I think it's pretty clear some of the contestants were using Shilpa's ethnicty to degrade her (which, even in the 'anything goes' culture of reality TV is still a pretty low blow).

But, it seems that we have different thresholds for categorizing things as racist.

Asian Brits seem to find racism everywhere.

Maybe if the other contestants didn't feel the need to bring up her race in the first place, Asian Brits wouldn't have much to complaint about?

Amitabh,

Abhishek Bacchhan might have had to go through training for Hindi language (am not too sure of that)-but the gy sure is really comfortable with the language-hear him talk in UP style Hindi in Bunty and Babli (especially when he says "Abey Jajjan")-you can't fault the guy with his diction. Same for Saif Ali Khan, the guy has a distinct "lehza' and "tehzeeb" in his voice and does even the rustic accents pretty well-care to watch Omkara. These guys know their Hindi rather well.Eeven Preity Zinta speaks decent Hindi. Most actors take coaching for Urdu diction.

Sakshi (comment 10 and 21)-i agree :). And about Shilpa Shetty, she may not have gotten too many A list movies-but she's quite a popular celebrity and looks gorgeous :).

Kush, she surely doesn't need a Big Brother to boost her acting career in India-her song and dance numbers are enough to make her popular with quite an audience and the classes were pleased too with her appearance in Phir Milenge.

her song and dance numbers are enough to make her popular with quite an audience and the classes were pleased too with her appearance in Phir Milenge.

Poor, poor Shilpa. Amitabh (19) most of the actors do have to take intensive Hindi lessons (musical, 31) to develop the standardized Bollywood accent (which is further changed according to character roles, etc)which is different from how normal people speak.

Pfff. Live by the reality show, die by the reality show. Meanwhile, from the Dept. of Accidental Postmodern Irony, this statement from the television channel that runs the show, as quoted by the BBC:

"Big Brother does not tolerate bullying or racist abuse in any form. Big Brother is closely monitoring all the housemates and will take appropriate measures to reprimand such behaviour where necessary," a spokesman said.

Dry your tears sweetie. Now lets go out to the yard and see if we can't find you a big stick.

Just kidding about the big stick of course. However-I have stopped being shocked by the behavior of adults. That's where kids learn it. Most bullying has a racial,ethnic or sexual slant and it's being studied seriously by psychologists,teachers and administrators alike. My personal contention is that anyone who's different and without a posse gets bullied. It's some of the same psychology behind that hideous mob behavior at the PR day parade and at New Years that Siddhartha posted on a few weeks ago.

...Dept. of Accidental Postmodern Irony...I am loving this phrase.

She is definitely beautiful - probably one of the most amazing bodies when it comes to Bollywood actresses, especially considering she's 30+ and not too many actresses hold on to their bodies at that age =) But I haven't been too fond of her since I met her back in .. um .. 1995. She was extremely rude - hell, she made Salman Khan look like an angel when I met him minutes later =) But I'll give her the benefit of the doubt here - need to watch some of those youtube clips.

I apologise for the behaviour of my fellow Brits! It's not so much the alleged racism as the generally slobbery, narrow-mindedness and ignorance of the other contestants in the house that makes me cringe. Shilpa may be high-maintenance and somewhat cocky, but at least she's actually does something (act, dance) - rather than people like uber-slob Jade Goody who just talks about her fake boobs and gives interviews to C-list magazines.

I dread to think of the impressions that Indians are getting of the UK as result of this show....

I guess it is a pretty big deal if it was discussed in the Parliament.

Not much we can do now. We should have worked aggressively on decoupling ourselves from violent eastern/middle-eastern ideologies in the white consciousness long ago. Any consolidated efforts to represent the Indian immigrant populations as a class of hard working, open minded people who have contributed much to the host society came too little, too late. Its hardly a British phenomenon, the English spin bowler and the South African batsman have been subjected to stereotyping in the 'Paki' image in the world of cricket by what were seemingly normal, reasonable commentators. It only shows how the impressionable amongst the Whites have identified us with the 'other', and they think subjecting us to humiliation is their right of self-preservation in societies under siege by a violent pan-religious ideology that seeks to destroy or get destroyed. Thanks of course to the Pakistani communities and to our PC fear of self-promotion on national, religious lines

germaine greer was in the guardian today saying the word paki was just like saying aussie. stupid woman. the guardian deserve a fucking beating for that.

That wasn't exactly what she said, but it was still puzzling.

Here's the article: 'Why does everyone hate me?'

These actors are more in tune with a sort of extremely elite, English-speaking, westernised, 'South Bombay' worldview than with anything Indian.

All these digs on Bollywood for being westernized are annoying. Why is speaking English considered Westernized? It's my first language, and I grew up in India. And I'm South Indian, so don't try to tell me that Hindi (which I happen to speak quite coherently) is my language. English has been spoken in India for over 200 years and it's as Indian a language as it is American. I know many Indians who are NOT members of the "elite" who speak predominantly English, and speak it better than any other Indian language. Granted, they live in urban areas, but who says beign urban isn't Indian? Neither side of my family has a "village"--as far back as we know, we've always been urban Indians. Since there have been cities in India for thousands of years, I don't know why everyone assumes that city culture isn't authentically Indian, and many urban Indians have been speaking English for generations. There is not a single living person in my family that can't speak English, and not all of us are highly educated or even live a Westernized lifestyle. I don't understand why people don't think English is an Indian language.

Regarding Bollywood actors in particular, they seem quite Indian to me. So what if they can't speak Hindi in person? They speak it decently on screen, and the "average Indian" who they are apparently not representing does love them. And regarding those elite writers, so what if they aren't writing about the experiences of the Indian masses? They are writing about an India that is quite real to them, and to many other people. And anyway, writers like Rohinton Mistry and Anita Desai write about the urban and rural poor respectively, and they do it with a familiarity of the subject. I can't vouch for their accuracy. It annoys me when people go on about things being or not being "authentically Indian". If they are happening in India, well, then they are Indian, whether you like it or not.

I thought Greer's piece interesting in its nuance. Her writing is brilliant, and she hasn't been defanged like almost every mainstream American columnist has been. Her point about Paki vs Aussie is certainly contentious, but her larger point, about how shows like these are all about bullying, was right on the mark. Unfortunately people are only going to focus on "racism" and miss out on an opportunity to ask themselves why persecution is such a popular sport. Pity, since that's the impulse behind both racism and politically expedient devices like torture. It's also relevant to the casual misogyny that attends every instance in which a woman is assertive--justified or not--in public. The elephant in the room is that we somehow enjoy the suffering of others; makes us feel big.

Hari Kunzru's brief riposte was toothless and disappointing.

Desishiksa #43.

YES. The authenticity brigade is an unending pain in the butt.

I agree with Desishiksa, it is annoying when people keep picking on Indians on how non-Indian they are just because English may be their primary language. Per wikipedia English is one of 23 official languages of India, so I am not sure what the gripe about Indians speaking in English is.

Although I do not watch many Hindi movies, Shetty is a stunner – and her looks may play as much a part in the bullying as her ethnicity. If she were a plain Jane, the Brits would feel less threatened by her. But it’s been my experience that women turn very catty when an attractive woman enters the picture. So here is an attractive Indian actress, who has had a reasonable degree of success in the world’s largest film industry, while the other women in the house seem rather unremarkable.

But I am curious – if Shetty appeared on the American version of Big Brother, I do not think she would be subject to the same abuse, at least the racial abuse (her looks would still get her some grief from the other hens). Because Britain was India’s colonial power, Brits have a different relationship with India than Americans – the idea of treating an Indian as an equal may be a bit much.

Desishiksa,

Can you please expand on your statement "I know many Indians who are NOT members of the "elite" who speak predominantly English, and speak it better than any other Indian language"? And what is your definition of "NOT elite"?

Thanks.

I think she means people who are not part of the privileged classes as alluded to by some above. If you see the wiki link about English is one of the 23 official languages of India. Also this wiki link puts the number of English speakers in India at about 350 million which is substantial and obviously all 350 million English speakers are not privileged.

another link

Its all over sky news at the moment. And now we have around 10-20 out of work nutjobs burning effigies in India. I just hope nobody gets shot in the ensuing riots or it will be our turn be embarrassed.

What do I mean by non-elite Indians who speak English?
I mean they speak English at home and in situations where they would use the language they were most comfortable with. By "not elite" I mean middle class Indians in cities who are not affiliated with Bollywood since that was the topic at hand, don't run a lucrative business, and don't hobnob with high society. I'm not including myself in this because I grew up in Hyderabad where everyone knows each other and anyone that goes to certain schools or works for certain institutions ends up hobnobbing with high society by default, even if the high society kids are being chauffered to school and your dad is dropping you off on a Bajaj.

they ought to shut this show down before it gets any worse..this is ridiculous!

These actors are more in tune with a sort of extremely elite, English-speaking, westernised, 'South Bombay' worldview than with anything Indian. Their damn award shows for their Hindi movies ARE IN ENGLISH for crying out loud!

Amitabh, as far as I remember, we have agreed to disagree on this before, but I do think you're crossing the line here. Please stop defining 'Indian' for everyone else. You have no more or less "right" over India than I do. Period.

As I always say, English today is an Indian language, like any other. It's fine if you don't agree, but again, please do not insinuate against people who choose to use it that way.

It does not matter whether the Brits or Yanks or Aussies consider English an Indian language (though they should and eventually will). The older generations in India looked to the Brits for "validation" of their English (BBC English and stuff), but today it is used and modified in India without any corresponding need for validation.

Sure, there is always an elitist aspect to using English, but again, it's an individual thing. There are people who look down on you if their English is better than yours, but there are people who don't. And there are people who'll find some reason to look down on you no matter what!

Brown, thanks for the factual backup. I once met a nice old man at a church sale, who responded when a woman standing next to him commented on how good my English was after I said I was from India, "Well, what do you expect? India has the largest English speaking population in the world!". I could have kissed him.

A great book to read about the whole Indian English debate is Braj Kachru's Asian Englishes: Beyond the Canon. He makes the most eloquent argument that I have seen for why English no longer can be considered merely a Brit/American/Aussie language any more.

is this aired anywhere online or in the states? seems hilarious. Maybe they're mean to her because they saw 24 and realized that she could be a Kal Penn type.

Desishiksa,

Happy to help, the arguments made by some like Amitabh on such discussions are preposterous. I hope this doesn’t ignite an Indianess debate and take the attention away from the topic at hand.

I hope this doesn’t ignite an Indianess debate and take the attention away from the topic at hand.

Me too. I apologize for my role in any threadjacking that may have taken place and shall desist from making further comments for now (mainly because I am going to work).

Wonder what caused this Greer gem?
As a Tamil, Shetty has certainly had to deal with discrimination at home in suburban Mumbai.
Perhaps Ms. Greer should get some nice kaapi at a Matunga restaurant. Mani’s serves lovely idlis in the morn. It’s right next to Poddar College. Alumnis include certain Ms. Shetty.

I'm not sure how I feel about this.. First of all, Shilpa comes in with her diva attitude. She wanted to teach people about HER, HER country and HER life - and used this to be a 'crossover' star. I don't think she went into this ready to share and learn about others and gain from the experience.

With that said, there is not excuse for derogatory and racist/sexist comments.

However, let's step back and see this is a reality show. They always put a southern conservative in a house with a gay guy from San Fran or a Muslim. They want to stir up emotions and then talk about the homophobia, xenophobia, etc.

This is voluntary situation by the participants and the environment is fostered by the TV producers. (Why do you think Real World has a bunch of gorgeous, lusty kids working in Las Vegas clubs?)

Shodan # 60. Ms. Shetty is not Tamil speaking-she may be born in Tamilnadu but her mother tongue is Tulu.

As a Tamil, Shetty has certainly had to deal with discrimination at home in suburban Mumbai.

I don't think she's Tamil. Going by her surname, she is Bunt, the Tulu-speaking community which also includes, incidentally, Aishwarya Rai.

Their damn award shows for their Hindi movies ARE IN ENGLISH for crying out loud!

Aishwariya is a Kannadiga! (sorry, feeling a little home pride there)

The UK question is interesting. Here's a glimpse into why I think the racism in the UK to Asians is abhorrent:

1. colonial supremacist attitudes resurging thanks to the "War on Terror"
2. blatant stereotyping of all brown men being terrorists and all brown women being submissive quiet types who never fire back
3. alcoholism (can't deny that it brings out the hate!)
4. the clear segregation of racial groups in the UK -- even politically. the UK government in Bradford has an Islamic Council and a British Council, and educational funding supports the creation of Islamic schools for young children
5. anti-Indianism, as in all our jobs are being outsourced to India (and all our base are belong to us) and India is experiencing unprecedented economic growth
6. no apologies. Even Senator Macaca issued an apology, but in the UK BNP leaders are acquitted for Islamophobic comments. Apologies place the shame on the perpetrator, but in the UK apologizing is not a reality as it admits guilt.

oh, i forgot one more thing: British humour, which is completely based on poking fun of other people. Where is the line drawn between being humourous and being abusive?

Hari Kunzru's brief riposte was toothless and disappointing.

I thought Kunzru's piece was better; I think Greer is wrong when she says that Shilpa is riling up her housemates in a calculated fashion. I think Shilpa's mixture of nerdiness, pomposity, and impeccable good manners (a peculiarly Indian combination of traits, as Kunzru pointed out) is causing her chavette housemates to react with bewilderment and outrage.

I thought Greer's piece interesting in its nuance. Her writing is brilliant, and she hasn't been defanged like almost every mainstream American columnist has been.

You mean, she hasn't been emasculated.

oh, i forgot one more thing: British humour, which is completely based on poking fun of other people. Where is the line drawn between being humourous and being abusive?

Hey, Borat turned abusive humor into a small fortune.

musical, risible,
Not really focussing on the Tamil part. Mumbai is a multilingual city (despite claims to the contrary from sons of soil types). With same problems/advantages of any other melting pot. Greer’s comment reeks of ignorance.

You mean, she hasn't been emasculated.

Yeah, she remains as masculine as ever.

Manju

You mean, she hasn't been emasculated.

Neal

Yeah, she remains as masculine as ever

That's the kind of casual misogyny I was talking about.

That's the kind of casual misogyny I was talking about.

Look Mr K, I'm all for a little casual misogyny form time to time, but in this case it was just a casual reference.

Look Mr K, I'm all for a little casual misogyny form time to time

As am I, but the difference is that I don't find it anything to celebrate in myself. Everytime a woman speaks bluntly, she's accused of being masculine, etc. And what your hyperlink to "The Female Eunuch" has to do with it, I don't know. I mean, if we're going to play the game like that, I could accuse Vijay Prashad of being white, and then link to "The Karma of Brown Folk." Pointless.

I'm aware how shrill this sounds. If that's the price, so be it.

The elephant in the room is that we somehow enjoy the suffering of others.

These actors are more in tune with a sort of extremely elite, English-speaking, westernised, 'South Bombay' worldview than with anything Indian. Their damn award shows for their Hindi movies ARE IN ENGLISH for crying out loud!

As I always say, English today is an Indian language, like any other. It's fine if you don't agree, but again, please do not insinuate against people who choose to use it that way.

i agree with amitabh. i think it is a bit funny as well. not without precedent. tolstoy documents te elitist fixation with french in his books and occasionally uses it to comic effect. if i read amitabh right, he was not questioning english's usage in india - it is just comical to interpret knowledge of a language (any language) as being indicative of superior learning/breeding. i have been in uncomfortable situations when a person spews out some gibberish in "english" in the mistaken belief that he/she is sounding more credible. another perspective - whenever i go to quebec the point is driven home that my communication skills in french are abysmal - a lesser community would make me feel like a shoe upon perceiving my weaknesses (as with the elitist indian society) or make fun of my pronunciation - not so. most people politely move to english (rather than have me dingdong their mother tongue). in india (i've done this experiment) i'd be treated with derision as something for the servant class to handle.

btw - to stay on topic, that shilpa woman has a nice round gaand.

in other words....these bully reality shows have become our modern version of the Arena of Death

KXB--good point! that "humor" which is considered "British" permeates the whole world, doesn't it? but in Britain it is considered "British" and only "British"

Desishiksha (#43), I totally agree. I speak English at home, and Hindi is not my native language. I dislike the expectation that all Indians should speak Hindi, and I really hate the implication that speaking English is some kind of snobbery.

Kush had a point. I don't think any of us are objecting to the use of English per se. It is the attitude that accompanies it that can be questioned. I have seen many highly intelligent vernacular students get rejected from interviews (colleges, jobs) simply because they did not have the requisite fluency. And this goes beyond individual discrmination. This attitude is the reason why a Jnanapith award winner in a native language has his books sold for Rs. 100, 150 while a writer in English has his/hers sold for Rs.600 - Rs.900.

btw - to stay on topic, that shilpa woman has a nice round gaand.

This is incredible, way to discuss the issue at hand.

And what your hyperlink to "The Female Eunuch" has to do with it, I don't know.

Mr. K:

I think greer makes your point...

Everytime a woman speaks bluntly, she's accused of being masculine, etc.

...in her book. she very playfully/provocatively analogizes the female condition to castration. so i just went with her analogy. Don't worry, you'll have plenty of opportuites in the future to scold me for my misogyny, but in this case, you are mistaken.

kxb -- i guess like cohen, big brother is doing the same thing?

Desishiksha (#43), I totally agree. I speak English at home, and Hindi is not my native language.

You guys have 100% twisted what Amitabh said in earlier comments beyond recognition. Nobody derides English or imposes Hindi. RK Narayan wrote in English but his heart was as Indian as anyone else will ever have.

Amitabh was pointing out that some of the actors inspite of living off "Hindi" film industry, adored by Indian speaking Hindi and other native Indian languages totally eschew the Hindi and other distinctly Indian lifestyle in public. Some of it looks very shallow and hypocritcal. He has a very valid point.

Years ago, I saw Satyajit Ray speak. He was a pucca English sahib but the man had an eye and sensibility of all things Indian.

Diverting Amitabh's point out of context is complete lack of understanding what he was conveying in his comments.

This is incredible, way to discuss the issue at hand.

kxb -- i guess like cohen, big brother is doing the same thing?

Not exactly. Cohen basically took advantage of American hospitality - he'd behave like a jackass, or say something obnoixious, and the Americans were too polite to correct him. Big Brother is largely self-selected - people are not filmed under false pretenses unlike Cohen, whose objects of ridicule will not see a dime.

That's the kind of casual misogyny I was talking about.

Wtf? I was pointing out the silliness of using the term "emasculated" in this situation.

I mean I guess you could argue the word itself is misogynist since it associates "masculine" with being strong and steadfast. But that would be a threadjack of epic proportions, so let's not.

Maybe this will make the Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian. Although Shilpa is better than most in terms of maintaining some Indian culture and representing. My comments are aimed more at the likes of Abhishek, Preiti Zinta, Saif Ali Khan, etc.

Amitabh, How did you miss the pretentious Aishwarya Rai who was complaining "Why do people think I dont know English" on Oprah.

Don't worry, you'll have plenty of opportuites in the future to scold me for my misogyny, but in this case, you are mistaken.

Manju, you are beginning to achieve a literary style which crosses Naipaul with Wilde (I think). :)

#84 Kush and earlier Amitabh,

What is this distinctly Indian lifestyle you allude to?

Does it mean wearing kurta pajama, lungis and dhotis as opposed to trousers/shirts? Should they only eat Indian food?

Like desishiksa mentioned, if it happens in India, it is Indian. Societies and lifestyles aren't frozen in time and continue to change and evolve. When English incorporates Indian words and accepts them as English - pundit, guru, yogi, shampoo etc etc, why can't Indian languages do the same.

As for the perception of these stars, do you know them? So John Abraham being vegetarian (is that more Indian since as a chrstian/muslim hybrid, he has chosen to be vegetarian) or Saif Khan saying that his family from Pataudi were very proud of him when played a soldier in L.O.C.

Also, when they speak to the vernacular media, they do so in Hindi or are translated to HIndi. What is the big deal here? Maybe it is the fact that Abhishek talked about the songs on his iPOD in an interview which is not readily or cheaply available in INdia (I may be mistaken), he comes across as American. How dare these people from desh own cool gadgets. Only thos living West can have that lifestyle....

Of course all the strife and other hullabaloo on big bro is what the producers would like. That it has racial under and over tones is incidental. Shilpa is more accomplished than her fellow residents but not enough to bring down the house. I think pretty good move from big bro to get her into the show. The unpleasantness you see on the show is a face of ignorance, jealousy, and insecurity. big bro is probably pretty happy.

About Amitabh's comment on hindi cinema stars' non-hindi attitude, I think Kush responded best. And I don't know how it is awesome that hindi cinema awards be conducted in non-hindi. Also, I do watch a bunch of bolly-tv, and can totally vouch for the fact that barring maybe 5% of interviewed actors, they can't construct a full sentence in hindi, let alone a whole conversation. I object to it because 1. its fake to see them act in a language they can't speak unscripted and 2. I'd just like to sometime hear a bolly conversation in hindi.

BTW, I don't have hindi fluency expectation from those desis whose first language is neither hindi nor english. But you should see what happens when an interviewer happens to ask a question in hindi - the star begins with hindi, and I swear - no more than 5 words of hindi pass across their lips when they give up and go into english - now we're cookin'! The few that I've noticed are able to express themselves in hindi are manoj vajpayee, bipasha, john abraham, srk, and a bunch of older actors.

To those that say speaking english in india isn't necessarily elitist, I say 'bring awn the flames' cos I say it is! Try reasoning in hindi at a hotel anywhere in the hindi-speaking-majority place in India, and then switch to english and you'll notice the difference. Jobs - its a leg up in any job - sweeper on the road even. English makes one more valuable in almost any job or situation in India today, and it is aspired towards, and yes, it is elitist.

I only know hindi and english so my experience is limited to the use of these two. Not sure how the use/knowledge of english in non-hindi-majority parts of India works out.

I know many Indians who are NOT members of the "elite" who speak predominantly English,

Thats why we dont let brick-maker and the shoemaker's kids into our English medium schools. Its a people's language so the shoe-maker's kids probably knows it already.

I mean you have to be blind not to see, the language based class system that is prevelant in India.

#84 Kush and earlier Amitabh,

What is this distinctly Indian lifestyle you allude to?

Does it mean wearing kurta pajama, lungis and dhotis as opposed to trousers/shirts? Should they only eat Indian food?

Sorry about the threadjack, but this was not Amitabh's point at all. I don't think anyone here dislikes english, so please do not make such insinuations.

As Amitabh said, 95% of the Indian actors are more comfortable with english. Now, if 95% of Indians spoke english in their daily lives (heck, even 50%) , I won't have a problem with that. But I doubt more than 10% do.

As for the perception of these stars, do you know them?

FYI: My aunt's brother (mamiji's bhai) was married to a bollywood actress for a brief while. Hint: She was really good-looking, and was known for vampish roles. I must confess that she presented her in day-to-day life in a very traditional way, and spoke Hindi in a very modulated, sophisticated tones. Email me and I'll give your name too in private.

It is not common for Mumbaiker's (I am not from Mumbai) to know actors/ actress. Go to ex-SMer Manish's blog @ Ultrabrown, he hobnobs/ runs into them with them often. He even shares the gym with Bipasha and Rishi Kapoor.

Correction: It is not uncommon........

d00d doesn't Shilpa like have a black belt in karate.. she oughta kick some ass

The NYT had a squib about this yesterday, as well as an announcement of the Abi-Aish engagement... hooray for Bollywood, I suppose.

Big Brother and shows like that live off the casual bigotry that throwing cultural opposites into a camera-ready house entails. I don't know if what's happening with Shilpa is a little more than the producers bargained for. I don't think this is worth burning effigies and street riots though. It's unfortunate and I hope she's not too traumatised by the experience!

The other issue about the "Indian"ness of Bollywood actors is an ongoing conversation, yeah? In my view, it has nothing to do with whether or not racist attitudes are somehow earned or deserevd.

He even shares the gym with Bipasha and Rishi Kapoor.

Whats so funny about Bipasha-its the name for River Beas (Vipasha in Sanskrit, Bipasha in Bengali).

Kush:

It is not common for Mumbaiker's (I am not from Mumbai) to know actors/ actress.

Did you mean, "its not un-common"?

However, i wouldn't buy that-i have many friends from Bombay/Mumbai-and none of them have ever spotted a star. So, am not sure if its that common for a "common Mumbaikar" to see the stars.

Did you mean, "its not un-common"?

musical, yes, i corrected it (comment #. 95).

that is why i use the term "not uncommon" rather "commonly". i would guess more so with people living in South Mumbai (isn't that the hub of bollywood) and certain social circles.

Let Manish himself fill in (if he wants to), isn't his current landlord a bollywood legend.

I understand the statements that Amitabh and Kush are trying to make (atleast that's what I think).

Watch any of these bollywood actors interviewing on TV channels etc...they answer every question in English...even when it is a Hindi news channel and all the questions were posed in Hindi.
A good friend of mine usually says, that these are the kind of people that should be labelled "ganwaar" ...those who don't even know the basic rule of conversation.

Sadly, the likes of Lalu Prasad and Inzamam-ul Haq are usually branded "ganwaar" by people becuase they're not comfortable while speaking English.

brown_fob,

Sadly, the likes of Lalu Prasad and Inzamam-ul Haq are usually branded "ganwaar" by people becuase they're not comfortable while speaking English.

Exactly!! I have noticed what you describe. People call Inzamam names just because he speaks to the media in Urdu.

Speaking of Inzy, Pakistan / South Africa are having some race related grief. Herschelle Gibbs was handed two test ban. Some SA players received hate from Pakistan fans as well. Ugly scene all over.
Kamran Abbasi and Telford Vice offer their opinions.
Prolly calls for another post instead of threadjack here. Curious about SA mutineers' take on this.

brown_fob: You hit the nail on the head!

Curious about SA mutineers' take on this.

Didn't Barry Richards (whom I admired as an incredibly talented cricketer but.....) also made a remark on "Indian fragilities". Sunil Gavaskar is on his case right now.

"Curious about SA mutineers' take on this."

i think the south africans are wrong to equate the objectionable behavior of Pakistani fans with Gibbs' comments (saying one justified the other). the fans should be taken to task, just as south africa complained about racist comments from aussie fans during their tour there (and telford vice makes an important point about the south african reaction then and now). however, gibbs's and the south africans' contentions that his comments were not for general consumption doesn't wash because surely the Pakistani players in close quarters and the stump mike would overhear his comments anyways. surely he would know that his comments would upset the Pakistani players, even if they were directed against the fans? if they expect Pakistani cricketers to just get on with it and not take exception then they should also ignore ignorant fans and just get on with it and not be goaded into complaining or reacting against it until they are off the field (although given the ugliness of some fans i can understand how hard this would be, especially when it is physical intimidation).

they should follow the example of the west indians who had to put up with some ugly comments from a small section of indian fans in mumbai some time back. the west indians didn't resort to making comments in front of the indian players, who bore no blame for what their ignorant fans said. this is not harmless (or even harmful) sledging, it goes beyond that. having said that, i think south asian and other cricketers who speak more than english have an advantage in that they can probably say things and get away with it more than the purely english-speaking ones ( but in this day and age, even their comments would be easily translated for general consumption).

India has the largest English speaking population in the world!

this wiki link puts the number of English speakers in India at about 350 million

What a load of BS! The disregard for facts and the proud anglophilia should be embarrassing. India's rural population is around 70% of the total. How many indian villagers do you think are english speakers? What percentage of urban indians speak english? Do the math.

The percentage of indians who can understand english is easily less than 10% and probably closer to 5%:

http://www.languageinindia.com/may2003/annika.html#chapter5

"An estimated 4% of the Indian population use English; although the number might seem small, out of the total population that is about 35 million people (in 1994)(Crystal 1995:101). Although the number of speakers of English in India is somewhat limited (as compared to the total population), that small segment of the population controls domains that have professional prestige (Kachru 1986a: 8)."

"Mark Tully (1997:161-162) points out that the élitist status of English in India creates problems for the economic development because that means that the education of the mass of people will be ignored."

Adopting English as the language of the elite, the language of science and technology, even the language of the Law is nothing but colonialism part II. The Colonial Master has left the house and the Macaulayite servants have taken over the mansion, leaving behind the masses of India as second class citizens in their native land. Is this the correct recipe for making India great? Just look at the list of non-anglosaxon nations that have adopted english and what do you see? The most impoverished and backward people on the planet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

"In many other countries, where English is not a first language, it is an official language; these countries include Belize, Cameroon, Fiji, the Federated States of Micronesia, Ghana, Gambia, India, Kiribati, Lesotho, Liberia, Kenya, Namibia, Nigeria, Malta, the Marshall Islands, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Rwanda, the Solomon Islands, Samoa, Sierra Leone, Sri Lanka, Swaziland, Tanzania, Zambia and Zimbabwe."

note on the "English" language -- I get really irritated when people are accused of not speaking "proper" English due to the fact that they have transplanted themselves from the US/UK/Australia/South Africa/really anywhere in the world to another part of the world. The English arguments are circular -- English is a LIVING LANGUAGE and has evolved differently all over the world. It's futile to argue what is the right English, and for the most part, we can all understand each other whether we discuss long distance or trunk calls.

musical,
I worked in an upscale hospital in Mumbai and because of its location in the city it was commonly frequented by the filmstars and TV stars and other famous people. Personally, I had treated 1 current and 1 past Indian cricket team member, was around when Tendulkar's back problem was being investigated. I also saw Kajol and Devgun in the waiting room, Govinda outside the ICU, Salman Khan's younger brother ( I forget his name, it seems he was in the movies too)in the ER, Dharmendra in the Elevator, Amrish Puri as a referred case, and of course the biggest star I saw was TMBWITW ! She was nt that big in the movies yet, just your ex-Ms Universe. All this in just one year of working in that place.

Enough of the name dropping...

OK I just got around to watching the youtube clips and went thru about 6 or 7 of them. Damn stupid cows. They are ugly and stupid to boot. Shit I was never a fan of her but kudos to Shilpa for her poise and maturity in every single one of those insipid tirades those women brought on her. It's simple the way I see it from all the clips...she's attractive, nice, speaks well and the rest of them come across as complete losers next to her. It's only a matter of time before this would have happened.

As for the English argument. I grew up in India and come from a average middle class Maharashtrian family and we all always spoke English at home on both my mom's and dad's side. The everyday language in my family homes in India is English peppered with Marathi and now with Hindi and Gujarati because of family additions but predominantly English. If you woke one of my cousins in the middle of the night by throwing water on them (a Akbar/Birbal story) they'd wake up screaming in English. It really is just that common. We all spoke English in school when I was a kid as well.