Maybe this will make the Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian. Although Shilpa is better than most in terms of maintaining some Indian culture and representing. My comments are aimed more at the likes of Abhishek, Preiti Zinta, Saif Ali Khan, etc.

Oh, and Hrithik Roshan too.

Much respect to Shilpa for dealing with these fools in a classy manner.

Maybe this will make Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian

How does their speaking fluent english make them less Indian?

wha? is that photo doctored?

the guy on the left looks like a filmi actor from yesteryear. I'm sure you all know him. can't think of the name.

amitabh,

Maybe this will make the Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian.

you're kind of repeating,

...Shilpa was also the victim of a lot of bullying and even some acts of racism from some of the housemates (especially the ladies). Over the past few days, fellow participants have called Shilpa “dog, “”The Indian,” and have even mocked her accent.

A lot of the population is racist even when it is agreed that racism is bad.

A few years ago, racism was an opinion---a "scientific" and definitely widely accepted opinion at that. Makes me wonder abt all that desis had to endure before independence. And what they, along with many other ethnicities have to endure in most of the middle east. And a significant part of continental europe which doesn't even measure up anywhere near UK or the US in fairness.

How does their speaking fluent english make them less Indian?

shireen, amitabh means that howsoever westernized/ like a typical westernized person you become (be it from Bollywood or otherwise), there is a divide that shows up in free-for-all reality show where the bitchiness is almost directed toward her ethnicity/ nationality.

indian cricket players have gone through this many times.

a lot of bollywood actors (or more so others) too really wanted to show in their behavior that they might as well be from UK/ USA. i think shilpa shetty is different from what i have read.

wha? is that photo doctored?

Maybe this will make the Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian. Although Shilpa is better than most in terms of maintaining some Indian culture and representing. My comments are aimed more at the likes of Abhishek, Preiti Zinta, Saif Ali Khan, etc.

Amitabh: I don't even know what to say to you...I can't really follow your comment.

i think a lot of it is plain jealousy. she is the only A-lister there except the former Ms. UK (who may become A-lister one day).

others are just washed out

a lot of bollywood actors (or more so others) too really wanted to show in their behavior that they might as well be from UK/ USA.

I really do not follow this. I mean, their accents, etc, seem pretty authentic Indian to me most of the time. Abhishek and Saif both have extremely privileged backgrounds, and that shows (ok, not so much on Abhishek :-D ) but I never got the feeling they are more American than Indian.

Abhishek and Saif both have extremely privileged backgrounds, and that shows

that is true. i am sorry for contributing to the distraction.

back to main topic, i do not think shilpa deserves it.

Dirk seems to have found some youth elixir... he's almost 62!

that is true. i am sorry for contributing to the distraction. back to main topic, i do not think shilpa deserves it.

Yes, true. But at the same time I am extremely uncomfortable with making it a lesson of any sort to Indians (as Amitabh does in #1).

bytewords @ #6 said:

A lot of the population is racist even when it is agreed that racism is bad.

I've been following this show. I don't think in this particular it is racism. The problem is they put Shilpa Shetty in with a bunch of Phony, Ignorant, Talentless, Morons who had delusions of being famous and probably imagined a nation flocking to the television to admire them(the ex-Miss England in particular). But Shilpa came in and they were relegated to servitude by a clever Big Brother and had to face reality: That without their PR mechanism and Tabloid promotion they are just silly girls with nothing to say, no knowledge and noone to care.

Three of the male celebrities left the building as if escaping their deaths and the tabloid dolls were left with a gay man and two older men to flirt with. These men, oblivious to the charms before them, turned to Shilpa for conversation, support and even flirtation(Shame on you Dirk Benedict ;). The beauties then turned into vicious tramps and started attaching any weakness shilpa had. These include cooking skills, facial hair, accent and niceness(class). Since a lot of this has to do with Shilpa's Indianness, it comes off as racist. In their jealous rage, "the three witches" as they are refered to in most of England now, don't realise their hippocracy and cruelty. When they come out, they will be in shock as to how they are perceived.

I'm interested in this because of the way Shilpa has been handling herself so far. I cant' wait till the breaking point (there always is) and she finds a backbone. It will be ugly and great television.

when the lights went out
in 2003
people talked,
said hello,
shared a cookie
with their neighbor.
even my withered self
had a love
who waited -
parched
and worried
by the fountain
out in the street.
Good memories they
of times past.
Almost as good
is the memory
that the tube was shut
and people talked
about you
and me
and
their lives
and did not need
to sit
drooling and asinine
in front of the fucking tube.
buddah sez
dont be a kook.
read a book.

Kush @ #9

Totally agree with you but a lot of people seem to disagree. Are Indians in UK more prone to complain about racism?

Off-topic: She is adorable with that afro and 70's getup

rasudha,

via your link on the news tab, i saw couple of segments of big brother on youtube.

that is for sure those girls do not like shilpa at all, and she is fighting back.

they are jealous but they (those girls) are definitely using ethnicity card, like eating with fingers, etc.

Yes, true. But at the same time I am extremely uncomfortable with making it a lesson of any sort to Indians (as Amitabh does in #1).

Sorry. Maybe that was inappropriate. But I'm kinda bitter at many in Bollywood...they earn their bread and butter (as well as the adoration of millions upon millions of fans) through Hindi cinema, and indirectly Indian culture (to the extent that Bollywood reflects or relies on Indian culture), but many of them have a disdain and a snobby disregard for that very culture and language. It's a joke on the fans which the fans don't even realise. Saif Ali Khan for example IS very American in terms of his real life personality and tastes. These actors are more in tune with a sort of extremely elite, English-speaking, westernised, 'South Bombay' worldview than with anything Indian. Their damn award shows for their Hindi movies ARE IN ENGLISH for crying out loud! How many actors in the 'Hindi' film industry do you think could conduct an off the cuff, unscripted, unrehearsed interview in Hindi (I'm not saying shuddh Hindi, just regular, colloquial Hindi)? Hrithik Roshan had to take Hindi classes with a tutor when he launched his acting career. Even Abhishek, son of an excellent Hindi speaker, and grandson of a HINDI POET, had to undergo intensive Hindi training when he decided to become an actor. Same thing with Vinod Khanna's kids. Have you ever seen Preiti Zinta talking in Hindi outside of a film (like in an interview or award show)? Word is that Kajol doesn't even really know how to speak it, and Ajay Devgan, although fluent, never speaks it offscreen. The only actors who are actually fluent in it are either older generation, or Muslim (like all the Khans for example) or did not grow up in Mumbai. My point is that these actors work in a certain industry, which exists through the medium of Hindi and Indian cultural references, and has given them everything in life, but most simply milk it for all it's worth in terms of fortune and fame, yet have no real appreciation or committment or emotional attachment to the language and culture which makes their lifestyles possible. In fact some have contempt for it. Yet their fans eat it all up. (I'm not including south Indian actors in this analysis by the way).

But I agree that Shilpa shouldn't have been treated like that, the British racism is disgusting, and anyway like I said I think she's one of the better ones, seems to be a more down to Earth person.

Kush @ #18

But what do you do if you want to attack someone in a jealous fit and they dont give you more material to work with. They ran thru everything from Shilpa's laugh to her facial hair to her cooking methods. They had a lot of time on their hands and resorted to attacking her country and countrymen. Does it mean racism as in they believe their race is superior. If anything they have a complex about themselves especially since Shilpa had a hard time understanding some of their pronounciation. And it is obvious Shilpa is better spoken than them.

The Bleach Incident

Things Turn Ugly

Amitabh (#19):

I agree with your sentiment. Though the problem is certainly not restricted to Bollywood. Most of the popular Indian writers, e.g. (Vikram Seth, Khushwant Singh, Salman Rushdie, Anita/Kiran Desai), come from privileged backgrounds, and not one of them can write convincingly of the common Indian experience.

More to the point, I am slightly surprised at Shilpa Shetty being described as an A-list celebrity. I can't even think of a single major Bollywood movie she was in. If she is described as A-list, the other people on Big Brother must be total wash-outs.

:Yet their fans eat it all up.
I wouldn't call myself a fan of movie actors but i do watch their movies sometime. Growing up in semi-rural North India I always cringed at it but what other options did i have? Sure i couldnt develop any respect for these guys(I didnt understand them anyway) but i couldnt really affect their bottom lines.
And also why blame movie actors alone, English is considered the language of educated/cool people by most. Knowledge of English is directly related to IQ in India.

I've been following this show. I don't think in this particular it is racism. The problem is they put Shilpa Shetty in with a bunch of Phony, Ignorant, Talentless, Morons who had delusions of being famous and probably imagined a nation flocking to the television to admire them(the ex-Miss England in particular).

Oh Rasudha, let's call a spade a spade! Calling Shilpa a "Paki," "the Indian" and mocking her accent is pretty racist to me. They may have been jealous or envious or whatever...and they used racist means to convey that! Just sayin'.

More to the point, I am slightly surprised at Shilpa Shetty being described as an A-list celebrity.

Her only hit is Phir Milenge. However, as a pinup girl, and as a spokeperson, she is very visible and marketable. She represents a lot of causes, and brands in India.

She is a A-list celebrity, not a A-list actress. You are mixing two different lists.

Being on Big Brother was to jump start her film career, and I guess on that sense, her handlers mis-guessed the whole thing.

Ansur @23

If you'd look at my comment @20, I feel there is a difference between ugly behavior, bullying or whatever and "racism". She wasn't called a 'paki', according to Big Brother. That is false reporting. Each person in there has different insecurities but none of them, I believe, think they are a superior race. Asian Brits seem to find racism everywhere.

She is a A-list celebrity, not a A-list actress. You are mixing two different lists.

Yeah, I guess.
wikipedia has a lot of interesting info about her btw, such as, her native tongue is Tulu, and alleged contacts with the mafia (that explains why she has been so reasonable ;) ) .

Why is Abhi anti-Shilpa? He wants only Aishwariya posts?

More to the point, I am slightly surprised at Shilpa Shetty being described as an A-list celebrity.

She has some hit movies in the south, in Tamil and Telugu. Dunno about kannada.

Kush,

Her only hit is Phir Milenge

Baazigar was a monster hit. Dus, Darna Mana Hai, were successes. Her item song in the arthouse film Shool was huge.

I agree with your other points on the attitudes of some of the mainstream Hindi cinema actors.

Quizman, I stand corrected.

If you'd look at my comment @20, I feel there is a difference between ugly behavior, bullying or whatever and "racism". She wasn't called a 'paki', according to Big Brother. That is false reporting. Each person in there has different insecurities but none of them, I believe, think they are a superior race.

Rasudha, I'll agree that the other Big Brother contestants most likely don't believe in the coming of the Fourth Reich or donate their spare change to crazy eugenics programs. But why did they feel the need to bring up her ethnicity? Were they racialist but not racist? I dunno. I'm pretty convinced Shilpa wasn't called "The Indian" because she was a random unidentified straggler who just happened to be in the camera's way. Judging from the statements of other contestants as well as the viewers' opinions, I think it's pretty clear some of the contestants were using Shilpa's ethnicty to degrade her (which, even in the 'anything goes' culture of reality TV is still a pretty low blow).

But, it seems that we have different thresholds for categorizing things as racist.

Asian Brits seem to find racism everywhere.

Maybe if the other contestants didn't feel the need to bring up her race in the first place, Asian Brits wouldn't have much to complaint about?

Amitabh,

Abhishek Bacchhan might have had to go through training for Hindi language (am not too sure of that)-but the gy sure is really comfortable with the language-hear him talk in UP style Hindi in Bunty and Babli (especially when he says "Abey Jajjan")-you can't fault the guy with his diction. Same for Saif Ali Khan, the guy has a distinct "lehza' and "tehzeeb" in his voice and does even the rustic accents pretty well-care to watch Omkara. These guys know their Hindi rather well.Eeven Preity Zinta speaks decent Hindi. Most actors take coaching for Urdu diction.

Sakshi (comment 10 and 21)-i agree :). And about Shilpa Shetty, she may not have gotten too many A list movies-but she's quite a popular celebrity and looks gorgeous :).

Kush, she surely doesn't need a Big Brother to boost her acting career in India-her song and dance numbers are enough to make her popular with quite an audience and the classes were pleased too with her appearance in Phir Milenge.

her song and dance numbers are enough to make her popular with quite an audience and the classes were pleased too with her appearance in Phir Milenge.

Poor, poor Shilpa. Amitabh (19) most of the actors do have to take intensive Hindi lessons (musical, 31) to develop the standardized Bollywood accent (which is further changed according to character roles, etc)which is different from how normal people speak.

Pfff. Live by the reality show, die by the reality show. Meanwhile, from the Dept. of Accidental Postmodern Irony, this statement from the television channel that runs the show, as quoted by the BBC:

"Big Brother does not tolerate bullying or racist abuse in any form. Big Brother is closely monitoring all the housemates and will take appropriate measures to reprimand such behaviour where necessary," a spokesman said.

Dry your tears sweetie. Now lets go out to the yard and see if we can't find you a big stick.

Just kidding about the big stick of course. However-I have stopped being shocked by the behavior of adults. That's where kids learn it. Most bullying has a racial,ethnic or sexual slant and it's being studied seriously by psychologists,teachers and administrators alike. My personal contention is that anyone who's different and without a posse gets bullied. It's some of the same psychology behind that hideous mob behavior at the PR day parade and at New Years that Siddhartha posted on a few weeks ago.

...Dept. of Accidental Postmodern Irony...I am loving this phrase.

She is definitely beautiful - probably one of the most amazing bodies when it comes to Bollywood actresses, especially considering she's 30+ and not too many actresses hold on to their bodies at that age =) But I haven't been too fond of her since I met her back in .. um .. 1995. She was extremely rude - hell, she made Salman Khan look like an angel when I met him minutes later =) But I'll give her the benefit of the doubt here - need to watch some of those youtube clips.

I apologise for the behaviour of my fellow Brits! It's not so much the alleged racism as the generally slobbery, narrow-mindedness and ignorance of the other contestants in the house that makes me cringe. Shilpa may be high-maintenance and somewhat cocky, but at least she's actually does something (act, dance) - rather than people like uber-slob Jade Goody who just talks about her fake boobs and gives interviews to C-list magazines.

I dread to think of the impressions that Indians are getting of the UK as result of this show....

I guess it is a pretty big deal if it was discussed in the Parliament.

Not much we can do now. We should have worked aggressively on decoupling ourselves from violent eastern/middle-eastern ideologies in the white consciousness long ago. Any consolidated efforts to represent the Indian immigrant populations as a class of hard working, open minded people who have contributed much to the host society came too little, too late. Its hardly a British phenomenon, the English spin bowler and the South African batsman have been subjected to stereotyping in the 'Paki' image in the world of cricket by what were seemingly normal, reasonable commentators. It only shows how the impressionable amongst the Whites have identified us with the 'other', and they think subjecting us to humiliation is their right of self-preservation in societies under siege by a violent pan-religious ideology that seeks to destroy or get destroyed. Thanks of course to the Pakistani communities and to our PC fear of self-promotion on national, religious lines

germaine greer was in the guardian today saying the word paki was just like saying aussie. stupid woman. the guardian deserve a fucking beating for that.

That wasn't exactly what she said, but it was still puzzling.

Here's the article: 'Why does everyone hate me?'

These actors are more in tune with a sort of extremely elite, English-speaking, westernised, 'South Bombay' worldview than with anything Indian.

All these digs on Bollywood for being westernized are annoying. Why is speaking English considered Westernized? It's my first language, and I grew up in India. And I'm South Indian, so don't try to tell me that Hindi (which I happen to speak quite coherently) is my language. English has been spoken in India for over 200 years and it's as Indian a language as it is American. I know many Indians who are NOT members of the "elite" who speak predominantly English, and speak it better than any other Indian language. Granted, they live in urban areas, but who says beign urban isn't Indian? Neither side of my family has a "village"--as far back as we know, we've always been urban Indians. Since there have been cities in India for thousands of years, I don't know why everyone assumes that city culture isn't authentically Indian, and many urban Indians have been speaking English for generations. There is not a single living person in my family that can't speak English, and not all of us are highly educated or even live a Westernized lifestyle. I don't understand why people don't think English is an Indian language.

Regarding Bollywood actors in particular, they seem quite Indian to me. So what if they can't speak Hindi in person? They speak it decently on screen, and the "average Indian" who they are apparently not representing does love them. And regarding those elite writers, so what if they aren't writing about the experiences of the Indian masses? They are writing about an India that is quite real to them, and to many other people. And anyway, writers like Rohinton Mistry and Anita Desai write about the urban and rural poor respectively, and they do it with a familiarity of the subject. I can't vouch for their accuracy. It annoys me when people go on about things being or not being "authentically Indian". If they are happening in India, well, then they are Indian, whether you like it or not.

I thought Greer's piece interesting in its nuance. Her writing is brilliant, and she hasn't been defanged like almost every mainstream American columnist has been. Her point about Paki vs Aussie is certainly contentious, but her larger point, about how shows like these are all about bullying, was right on the mark. Unfortunately people are only going to focus on "racism" and miss out on an opportunity to ask themselves why persecution is such a popular sport. Pity, since that's the impulse behind both racism and politically expedient devices like torture. It's also relevant to the casual misogyny that attends every instance in which a woman is assertive--justified or not--in public. The elephant in the room is that we somehow enjoy the suffering of others; makes us feel big.

Hari Kunzru's brief riposte was toothless and disappointing.

Desishiksa #43.

YES. The authenticity brigade is an unending pain in the butt.

I agree with Desishiksa, it is annoying when people keep picking on Indians on how non-Indian they are just because English may be their primary language. Per wikipedia English is one of 23 official languages of India, so I am not sure what the gripe about Indians speaking in English is.

Although I do not watch many Hindi movies, Shetty is a stunner – and her looks may play as much a part in the bullying as her ethnicity. If she were a plain Jane, the Brits would feel less threatened by her. But it’s been my experience that women turn very catty when an attractive woman enters the picture. So here is an attractive Indian actress, who has had a reasonable degree of success in the world’s largest film industry, while the other women in the house seem rather unremarkable.

But I am curious – if Shetty appeared on the American version of Big Brother, I do not think she would be subject to the same abuse, at least the racial abuse (her looks would still get her some grief from the other hens). Because Britain was India’s colonial power, Brits have a different relationship with India than Americans – the idea of treating an Indian as an equal may be a bit much.

Desishiksa,

Can you please expand on your statement "I know many Indians who are NOT members of the "elite" who speak predominantly English, and speak it better than any other Indian language"? And what is your definition of "NOT elite"?

Thanks.

I think she means people who are not part of the privileged classes as alluded to by some above. If you see the wiki link about English is one of the 23 official languages of India. Also this wiki link puts the number of English speakers in India at about 350 million which is substantial and obviously all 350 million English speakers are not privileged.

another link

Its all over sky news at the moment. And now we have around 10-20 out of work nutjobs burning effigies in India. I just hope nobody gets shot in the ensuing riots or it will be our turn be embarrassed.

What do I mean by non-elite Indians who speak English?
I mean they speak English at home and in situations where they would use the language they were most comfortable with. By "not elite" I mean middle class Indians in cities who are not affiliated with Bollywood since that was the topic at hand, don't run a lucrative business, and don't hobnob with high society. I'm not including myself in this because I grew up in Hyderabad where everyone knows each other and anyone that goes to certain schools or works for certain institutions ends up hobnobbing with high society by default, even if the high society kids are being chauffered to school and your dad is dropping you off on a Bajaj.

they ought to shut this show down before it gets any worse..this is ridiculous!

These actors are more in tune with a sort of extremely elite, English-speaking, westernised, 'South Bombay' worldview than with anything Indian. Their damn award shows for their Hindi movies ARE IN ENGLISH for crying out loud!

Amitabh, as far as I remember, we have agreed to disagree on this before, but I do think you're crossing the line here. Please stop defining 'Indian' for everyone else. You have no more or less "right" over India than I do. Period.

As I always say, English today is an Indian language, like any other. It's fine if you don't agree, but again, please do not insinuate against people who choose to use it that way.

It does not matter whether the Brits or Yanks or Aussies consider English an Indian language (though they should and eventually will). The older generations in India looked to the Brits for "validation" of their English (BBC English and stuff), but today it is used and modified in India without any corresponding need for validation.

Sure, there is always an elitist aspect to using English, but again, it's an individual thing. There are people who look down on you if their English is better than yours, but there are people who don't. And there are people who'll find some reason to look down on you no matter what!

Brown, thanks for the factual backup. I once met a nice old man at a church sale, who responded when a woman standing next to him commented on how good my English was after I said I was from India, "Well, what do you expect? India has the largest English speaking population in the world!". I could have kissed him.

A great book to read about the whole Indian English debate is Braj Kachru's Asian Englishes: Beyond the Canon. He makes the most eloquent argument that I have seen for why English no longer can be considered merely a Brit/American/Aussie language any more.

is this aired anywhere online or in the states? seems hilarious. Maybe they're mean to her because they saw 24 and realized that she could be a Kal Penn type.

Desishiksa,

Happy to help, the arguments made by some like Amitabh on such discussions are preposterous. I hope this doesn’t ignite an Indianess debate and take the attention away from the topic at hand.

I hope this doesn’t ignite an Indianess debate and take the attention away from the topic at hand.

Me too. I apologize for my role in any threadjacking that may have taken place and shall desist from making further comments for now (mainly because I am going to work).

Wonder what caused this Greer gem?
As a Tamil, Shetty has certainly had to deal with discrimination at home in suburban Mumbai.
Perhaps Ms. Greer should get some nice kaapi at a Matunga restaurant. Mani’s serves lovely idlis in the morn. It’s right next to Poddar College. Alumnis include certain Ms. Shetty.

I'm not sure how I feel about this.. First of all, Shilpa comes in with her diva attitude. She wanted to teach people about HER, HER country and HER life - and used this to be a 'crossover' star. I don't think she went into this ready to share and learn about others and gain from the experience.

With that said, there is not excuse for derogatory and racist/sexist comments.

However, let's step back and see this is a reality show. They always put a southern conservative in a house with a gay guy from San Fran or a Muslim. They want to stir up emotions and then talk about the homophobia, xenophobia, etc.

This is voluntary situation by the participants and the environment is fostered by the TV producers. (Why do you think Real World has a bunch of gorgeous, lusty kids working in Las Vegas clubs?)

Shodan # 60. Ms. Shetty is not Tamil speaking-she may be born in Tamilnadu but her mother tongue is Tulu.

As a Tamil, Shetty has certainly had to deal with discrimination at home in suburban Mumbai.

I don't think she's Tamil. Going by her surname, she is Bunt, the Tulu-speaking community which also includes, incidentally, Aishwarya Rai.

Their damn award shows for their Hindi movies ARE IN ENGLISH for crying out loud!

Aishwariya is a Kannadiga! (sorry, feeling a little home pride there)

The UK question is interesting. Here's a glimpse into why I think the racism in the UK to Asians is abhorrent:

1. colonial supremacist attitudes resurging thanks to the "War on Terror"
2. blatant stereotyping of all brown men being terrorists and all brown women being submissive quiet types who never fire back
3. alcoholism (can't deny that it brings out the hate!)
4. the clear segregation of racial groups in the UK -- even politically. the UK government in Bradford has an Islamic Council and a British Council, and educational funding supports the creation of Islamic schools for young children
5. anti-Indianism, as in all our jobs are being outsourced to India (and all our base are belong to us) and India is experiencing unprecedented economic growth
6. no apologies. Even Senator Macaca issued an apology, but in the UK BNP leaders are acquitted for Islamophobic comments. Apologies place the shame on the perpetrator, but in the UK apologizing is not a reality as it admits guilt.

oh, i forgot one more thing: British humour, which is completely based on poking fun of other people. Where is the line drawn between being humourous and being abusive?

Hari Kunzru's brief riposte was toothless and disappointing.

I thought Kunzru's piece was better; I think Greer is wrong when she says that Shilpa is riling up her housemates in a calculated fashion. I think Shilpa's mixture of nerdiness, pomposity, and impeccable good manners (a peculiarly Indian combination of traits, as Kunzru pointed out) is causing her chavette housemates to react with bewilderment and outrage.

I thought Greer's piece interesting in its nuance. Her writing is brilliant, and she hasn't been defanged like almost every mainstream American columnist has been.

You mean, she hasn't been emasculated.

oh, i forgot one more thing: British humour, which is completely based on poking fun of other people. Where is the line drawn between being humourous and being abusive?

Hey, Borat turned abusive humor into a small fortune.

musical, risible,
Not really focussing on the Tamil part. Mumbai is a multilingual city (despite claims to the contrary from sons of soil types). With same problems/advantages of any other melting pot. Greer’s comment reeks of ignorance.

You mean, she hasn't been emasculated.

Yeah, she remains as masculine as ever.

Manju

You mean, she hasn't been emasculated.

Neal

Yeah, she remains as masculine as ever

That's the kind of casual misogyny I was talking about.

That's the kind of casual misogyny I was talking about.

Look Mr K, I'm all for a little casual misogyny form time to time, but in this case it was just a casual reference.

Look Mr K, I'm all for a little casual misogyny form time to time

As am I, but the difference is that I don't find it anything to celebrate in myself. Everytime a woman speaks bluntly, she's accused of being masculine, etc. And what your hyperlink to "The Female Eunuch" has to do with it, I don't know. I mean, if we're going to play the game like that, I could accuse Vijay Prashad of being white, and then link to "The Karma of Brown Folk." Pointless.

I'm aware how shrill this sounds. If that's the price, so be it.

The elephant in the room is that we somehow enjoy the suffering of others.

These actors are more in tune with a sort of extremely elite, English-speaking, westernised, 'South Bombay' worldview than with anything Indian. Their damn award shows for their Hindi movies ARE IN ENGLISH for crying out loud!

As I always say, English today is an Indian language, like any other. It's fine if you don't agree, but again, please do not insinuate against people who choose to use it that way.

i agree with amitabh. i think it is a bit funny as well. not without precedent. tolstoy documents te elitist fixation with french in his books and occasionally uses it to comic effect. if i read amitabh right, he was not questioning english's usage in india - it is just comical to interpret knowledge of a language (any language) as being indicative of superior learning/breeding. i have been in uncomfortable situations when a person spews out some gibberish in "english" in the mistaken belief that he/she is sounding more credible. another perspective - whenever i go to quebec the point is driven home that my communication skills in french are abysmal - a lesser community would make me feel like a shoe upon perceiving my weaknesses (as with the elitist indian society) or make fun of my pronunciation - not so. most people politely move to english (rather than have me dingdong their mother tongue). in india (i've done this experiment) i'd be treated with derision as something for the servant class to handle.

btw - to stay on topic, that shilpa woman has a nice round gaand.

in other words....these bully reality shows have become our modern version of the Arena of Death

KXB--good point! that "humor" which is considered "British" permeates the whole world, doesn't it? but in Britain it is considered "British" and only "British"

Desishiksha (#43), I totally agree. I speak English at home, and Hindi is not my native language. I dislike the expectation that all Indians should speak Hindi, and I really hate the implication that speaking English is some kind of snobbery.

Kush had a point. I don't think any of us are objecting to the use of English per se. It is the attitude that accompanies it that can be questioned. I have seen many highly intelligent vernacular students get rejected from interviews (colleges, jobs) simply because they did not have the requisite fluency. And this goes beyond individual discrmination. This attitude is the reason why a Jnanapith award winner in a native language has his books sold for Rs. 100, 150 while a writer in English has his/hers sold for Rs.600 - Rs.900.

btw - to stay on topic, that shilpa woman has a nice round gaand.

This is incredible, way to discuss the issue at hand.

And what your hyperlink to "The Female Eunuch" has to do with it, I don't know.

Mr. K:

I think greer makes your point...

Everytime a woman speaks bluntly, she's accused of being masculine, etc.

...in her book. she very playfully/provocatively analogizes the female condition to castration. so i just went with her analogy. Don't worry, you'll have plenty of opportuites in the future to scold me for my misogyny, but in this case, you are mistaken.

kxb -- i guess like cohen, big brother is doing the same thing?

Desishiksha (#43), I totally agree. I speak English at home, and Hindi is not my native language.

You guys have 100% twisted what Amitabh said in earlier comments beyond recognition. Nobody derides English or imposes Hindi. RK Narayan wrote in English but his heart was as Indian as anyone else will ever have.

Amitabh was pointing out that some of the actors inspite of living off "Hindi" film industry, adored by Indian speaking Hindi and other native Indian languages totally eschew the Hindi and other distinctly Indian lifestyle in public. Some of it looks very shallow and hypocritcal. He has a very valid point.

Years ago, I saw Satyajit Ray speak. He was a pucca English sahib but the man had an eye and sensibility of all things Indian.

Diverting Amitabh's point out of context is complete lack of understanding what he was conveying in his comments.

This is incredible, way to discuss the issue at hand.

kxb -- i guess like cohen, big brother is doing the same thing?

Not exactly. Cohen basically took advantage of American hospitality - he'd behave like a jackass, or say something obnoixious, and the Americans were too polite to correct him. Big Brother is largely self-selected - people are not filmed under false pretenses unlike Cohen, whose objects of ridicule will not see a dime.

That's the kind of casual misogyny I was talking about.

Wtf? I was pointing out the silliness of using the term "emasculated" in this situation.

I mean I guess you could argue the word itself is misogynist since it associates "masculine" with being strong and steadfast. But that would be a threadjack of epic proportions, so let's not.

Maybe this will make the Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian. Although Shilpa is better than most in terms of maintaining some Indian culture and representing. My comments are aimed more at the likes of Abhishek, Preiti Zinta, Saif Ali Khan, etc.

Amitabh, How did you miss the pretentious Aishwarya Rai who was complaining "Why do people think I dont know English" on Oprah.

Don't worry, you'll have plenty of opportuites in the future to scold me for my misogyny, but in this case, you are mistaken.

Manju, you are beginning to achieve a literary style which crosses Naipaul with Wilde (I think). :)

#84 Kush and earlier Amitabh,

What is this distinctly Indian lifestyle you allude to?

Does it mean wearing kurta pajama, lungis and dhotis as opposed to trousers/shirts? Should they only eat Indian food?

Like desishiksa mentioned, if it happens in India, it is Indian. Societies and lifestyles aren't frozen in time and continue to change and evolve. When English incorporates Indian words and accepts them as English - pundit, guru, yogi, shampoo etc etc, why can't Indian languages do the same.

As for the perception of these stars, do you know them? So John Abraham being vegetarian (is that more Indian since as a chrstian/muslim hybrid, he has chosen to be vegetarian) or Saif Khan saying that his family from Pataudi were very proud of him when played a soldier in L.O.C.

Also, when they speak to the vernacular media, they do so in Hindi or are translated to HIndi. What is the big deal here? Maybe it is the fact that Abhishek talked about the songs on his iPOD in an interview which is not readily or cheaply available in INdia (I may be mistaken), he comes across as American. How dare these people from desh own cool gadgets. Only thos living West can have that lifestyle....

Of course all the strife and other hullabaloo on big bro is what the producers would like. That it has racial under and over tones is incidental. Shilpa is more accomplished than her fellow residents but not enough to bring down the house. I think pretty good move from big bro to get her into the show. The unpleasantness you see on the show is a face of ignorance, jealousy, and insecurity. big bro is probably pretty happy.

About Amitabh's comment on hindi cinema stars' non-hindi attitude, I think Kush responded best. And I don't know how it is awesome that hindi cinema awards be conducted in non-hindi. Also, I do watch a bunch of bolly-tv, and can totally vouch for the fact that barring maybe 5% of interviewed actors, they can't construct a full sentence in hindi, let alone a whole conversation. I object to it because 1. its fake to see them act in a language they can't speak unscripted and 2. I'd just like to sometime hear a bolly conversation in hindi.

BTW, I don't have hindi fluency expectation from those desis whose first language is neither hindi nor english. But you should see what happens when an interviewer happens to ask a question in hindi - the star begins with hindi, and I swear - no more than 5 words of hindi pass across their lips when they give up and go into english - now we're cookin'! The few that I've noticed are able to express themselves in hindi are manoj vajpayee, bipasha, john abraham, srk, and a bunch of older actors.

To those that say speaking english in india isn't necessarily elitist, I say 'bring awn the flames' cos I say it is! Try reasoning in hindi at a hotel anywhere in the hindi-speaking-majority place in India, and then switch to english and you'll notice the difference. Jobs - its a leg up in any job - sweeper on the road even. English makes one more valuable in almost any job or situation in India today, and it is aspired towards, and yes, it is elitist.

I only know hindi and english so my experience is limited to the use of these two. Not sure how the use/knowledge of english in non-hindi-majority parts of India works out.

I know many Indians who are NOT members of the "elite" who speak predominantly English,

Thats why we dont let brick-maker and the shoemaker's kids into our English medium schools. Its a people's language so the shoe-maker's kids probably knows it already.

I mean you have to be blind not to see, the language based class system that is prevelant in India.

#84 Kush and earlier Amitabh,

What is this distinctly Indian lifestyle you allude to?

Does it mean wearing kurta pajama, lungis and dhotis as opposed to trousers/shirts? Should they only eat Indian food?

Sorry about the threadjack, but this was not Amitabh's point at all. I don't think anyone here dislikes english, so please do not make such insinuations.

As Amitabh said, 95% of the Indian actors are more comfortable with english. Now, if 95% of Indians spoke english in their daily lives (heck, even 50%) , I won't have a problem with that. But I doubt more than 10% do.

As for the perception of these stars, do you know them?

FYI: My aunt's brother (mamiji's bhai) was married to a bollywood actress for a brief while. Hint: She was really good-looking, and was known for vampish roles. I must confess that she presented her in day-to-day life in a very traditional way, and spoke Hindi in a very modulated, sophisticated tones. Email me and I'll give your name too in private.

It is not common for Mumbaiker's (I am not from Mumbai) to know actors/ actress. Go to ex-SMer Manish's blog @ Ultrabrown, he hobnobs/ runs into them with them often. He even shares the gym with Bipasha and Rishi Kapoor.

Correction: It is not uncommon........

d00d doesn't Shilpa like have a black belt in karate.. she oughta kick some ass

The NYT had a squib about this yesterday, as well as an announcement of the Abi-Aish engagement... hooray for Bollywood, I suppose.

Big Brother and shows like that live off the casual bigotry that throwing cultural opposites into a camera-ready house entails. I don't know if what's happening with Shilpa is a little more than the producers bargained for. I don't think this is worth burning effigies and street riots though. It's unfortunate and I hope she's not too traumatised by the experience!

The other issue about the "Indian"ness of Bollywood actors is an ongoing conversation, yeah? In my view, it has nothing to do with whether or not racist attitudes are somehow earned or deserevd.

He even shares the gym with Bipasha and Rishi Kapoor.

Whats so funny about Bipasha-its the name for River Beas (Vipasha in Sanskrit, Bipasha in Bengali).

Kush:

It is not common for Mumbaiker's (I am not from Mumbai) to know actors/ actress.

Did you mean, "its not un-common"?

However, i wouldn't buy that-i have many friends from Bombay/Mumbai-and none of them have ever spotted a star. So, am not sure if its that common for a "common Mumbaikar" to see the stars.

Did you mean, "its not un-common"?

musical, yes, i corrected it (comment #. 95).

that is why i use the term "not uncommon" rather "commonly". i would guess more so with people living in South Mumbai (isn't that the hub of bollywood) and certain social circles.

Let Manish himself fill in (if he wants to), isn't his current landlord a bollywood legend.

I understand the statements that Amitabh and Kush are trying to make (atleast that's what I think).

Watch any of these bollywood actors interviewing on TV channels etc...they answer every question in English...even when it is a Hindi news channel and all the questions were posed in Hindi.
A good friend of mine usually says, that these are the kind of people that should be labelled "ganwaar" ...those who don't even know the basic rule of conversation.

Sadly, the likes of Lalu Prasad and Inzamam-ul Haq are usually branded "ganwaar" by people becuase they're not comfortable while speaking English.

brown_fob,

Sadly, the likes of Lalu Prasad and Inzamam-ul Haq are usually branded "ganwaar" by people becuase they're not comfortable while speaking English.

Exactly!! I have noticed what you describe. People call Inzamam names just because he speaks to the media in Urdu.

Speaking of Inzy, Pakistan / South Africa are having some race related grief. Herschelle Gibbs was handed two test ban. Some SA players received hate from Pakistan fans as well. Ugly scene all over.
Kamran Abbasi and Telford Vice offer their opinions.
Prolly calls for another post instead of threadjack here. Curious about SA mutineers' take on this.

brown_fob: You hit the nail on the head!

Curious about SA mutineers' take on this.

Didn't Barry Richards (whom I admired as an incredibly talented cricketer but.....) also made a remark on "Indian fragilities". Sunil Gavaskar is on his case right now.

"Curious about SA mutineers' take on this."

i think the south africans are wrong to equate the objectionable behavior of Pakistani fans with Gibbs' comments (saying one justified the other). the fans should be taken to task, just as south africa complained about racist comments from aussie fans during their tour there (and telford vice makes an important point about the south african reaction then and now). however, gibbs's and the south africans' contentions that his comments were not for general consumption doesn't wash because surely the Pakistani players in close quarters and the stump mike would overhear his comments anyways. surely he would know that his comments would upset the Pakistani players, even if they were directed against the fans? if they expect Pakistani cricketers to just get on with it and not take exception then they should also ignore ignorant fans and just get on with it and not be goaded into complaining or reacting against it until they are off the field (although given the ugliness of some fans i can understand how hard this would be, especially when it is physical intimidation).

they should follow the example of the west indians who had to put up with some ugly comments from a small section of indian fans in mumbai some time back. the west indians didn't resort to making comments in front of the indian players, who bore no blame for what their ignorant fans said. this is not harmless (or even harmful) sledging, it goes beyond that. having said that, i think south asian and other cricketers who speak more than english have an advantage in that they can probably say things and get away with it more than the purely english-speaking ones ( but in this day and age, even their comments would be easily translated for general consumption).

India has the largest English speaking population in the world!

this wiki link puts the number of English speakers in India at about 350 million

What a load of BS! The disregard for facts and the proud anglophilia should be embarrassing. India's rural population is around 70% of the total. How many indian villagers do you think are english speakers? What percentage of urban indians speak english? Do the math.

The percentage of indians who can understand english is easily less than 10% and probably closer to 5%:

http://www.languageinindia.com/may2003/annika.html#chapter5

"An estimated 4% of the Indian population use English; although the number might seem small, out of the total population that is about 35 million people (in 1994)(Crystal 1995:101). Although the number of speakers of English in India is somewhat limited (as compared to the total population), that small segment of the population controls domains that have professional prestige (Kachru 1986a: 8)."

"Mark Tully (1997:161-162) points out that the élitist status of English in India creates problems for the economic development because that means that the education of the mass of people will be ignored."

Adopting English as the language of the elite, the language of science and technology, even the language of the Law is nothing but colonialism part II. The Colonial Master has left the house and the Macaulayite servants have taken over the mansion, leaving behind the masses of India as second class citizens in their native land. Is this the correct recipe for making India great? Just look at the list of non-anglosaxon nations that have adopted english and what do you see? The most impoverished and backward people on the planet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

"In many other countries, where English is not a first language, it is an official language; these countries include Belize, Cameroon, Fiji, the Federated States of Micronesia, Ghana, Gambia, India, Kiribati, Lesotho, Liberia, Kenya, Namibia, Nigeria, Malta, the Marshall Islands, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Rwanda, the Solomon Islands, Samoa, Sierra Leone, Sri Lanka, Swaziland, Tanzania, Zambia and Zimbabwe."

note on the "English" language -- I get really irritated when people are accused of not speaking "proper" English due to the fact that they have transplanted themselves from the US/UK/Australia/South Africa/really anywhere in the world to another part of the world. The English arguments are circular -- English is a LIVING LANGUAGE and has evolved differently all over the world. It's futile to argue what is the right English, and for the most part, we can all understand each other whether we discuss long distance or trunk calls.

musical,
I worked in an upscale hospital in Mumbai and because of its location in the city it was commonly frequented by the filmstars and TV stars and other famous people. Personally, I had treated 1 current and 1 past Indian cricket team member, was around when Tendulkar's back problem was being investigated. I also saw Kajol and Devgun in the waiting room, Govinda outside the ICU, Salman Khan's younger brother ( I forget his name, it seems he was in the movies too)in the ER, Dharmendra in the Elevator, Amrish Puri as a referred case, and of course the biggest star I saw was TMBWITW ! She was nt that big in the movies yet, just your ex-Ms Universe. All this in just one year of working in that place.

Enough of the name dropping...

OK I just got around to watching the youtube clips and went thru about 6 or 7 of them. Damn stupid cows. They are ugly and stupid to boot. Shit I was never a fan of her but kudos to Shilpa for her poise and maturity in every single one of those insipid tirades those women brought on her. It's simple the way I see it from all the clips...she's attractive, nice, speaks well and the rest of them come across as complete losers next to her. It's only a matter of time before this would have happened.

As for the English argument. I grew up in India and come from a average middle class Maharashtrian family and we all always spoke English at home on both my mom's and dad's side. The everyday language in my family homes in India is English peppered with Marathi and now with Hindi and Gujarati because of family additions but predominantly English. If you woke one of my cousins in the middle of the night by throwing water on them (a Akbar/Birbal story) they'd wake up screaming in English. It really is just that common. We all spoke English in school when I was a kid as well.

If you woke one of my cousins in the middle of the night by throwing water on them (a Akbar/Birbal story) they'd wake up screaming in English. It really is just that common. We all spoke English in school when I was a kid as well.

Another fine example of the irrational desi tendency to think that personal anecdotes trump statistical data.

You speak for a tiny minority of Indians. Its selfish, blinkered elitism to think that its you who represent India, not the great majority of Indians who arent english proficient.

Just to be clear JoAT, in other words, you and your family are not "Real Indians". Officially. Based on uncited but ABSOLUTELY IRONCLAD "statistical data".

As for the English argument. I grew up in India and come from a average middle class Maharashtrian family and we all always spoke English at home on both my mom's and dad's side. The everyday language in my family homes in India is English peppered with Marathi and now with Hindi and Gujarati because of family additions but predominantly English. If you woke one of my cousins in the middle of the night by throwing water on them (a Akbar/Birbal story) they'd wake up screaming in English. It really is just that common. We all spoke English in school when I was a kid as well.

I will not argue with your personal experience. But even the most generous estimates will not place percentage of Indians using english as a first language more than 10%. What of the other 90%? I don't think anyone will argue that those who speak english are a lot more powerful and visible in India than those who don't, and fluency in english is a strong asset in India (for some people its their only asset, hence all the snobbishness that surrounds english). This means that 90% of the Indian population is largely voiceless, and that is a serious problem which will not go away. If we hope to create a just, modern and equitable society in India, we cannot pretend the divide does not exist.

I do not suggest that India should make an effort to forget english. English is the language of colonialism, but it is also the language of globalization and modernity. I'd support any effort that helps english reach to the people who do not have access to it, and indeed to spread the use of english in India. The aim should be that everyone in India gets the same opportunities irrespective of where they are born in the country, which is certainly not the case today.

How much English in India?

I would agree with sakshi and RC's numbers. Somewhere ~10% or little less of the entire population.

Interestingly, I found this survey. Disclaimer: The survey only cover salaried people in India not the entire population. The text below is from Indian Express, the emphasis is mine.

English is being spread in India by the world of work. And, most interestingly, young India is gearing up to meet the challenge of English. An analysis by The Indian Express of the Indian Retirement Earnings and Savings (IRES) shows that nearly 40 percent of young earners — in the age group 20 to 30— have at least a rudimentary ability to read English.

• How widespread is the use of English in India?

About 35 percent of the earners of India claim that they can “read” English. A note of caution must be added: all measurement of literacy is weak. A man who claims to read English can probably slowly read one letter at a time.

• How do we know about this data?

One good source is the Indian Retirement Earnings and Savings (IRES) database, released by the Ministry of Finance and ADB. This tells us about a randomly chosen set of 41,000 earners in the country. The focus is on earners - people who do not work for an income are not counted. There are 364 million earners, so each 1% of the earners is 3.64 million people.

•

Back on Greer, Ms. Shetty isn't even Tamil. And then she berates the English for being ignorant....

Whats so funny about Bipasha-its the name for River Beas (Vipasha in Sanskrit, Bipasha in Bengali).

dirk benedict cured himself of prostate cancer via a macrobiotic diet? (via the link) okay, now i'm seriously laughing. hot diggity damn. now why wasn't the new england journal notified? and shilpa shetty an A-lister? um.. not really. don't those who want to revive their career/s go onto the show.. sorry she has to deal with the others, but she was paid to go into a house full of these um... people...and in the end, it's all about ratings, no matter how they get them..the stupider people act, the higher the ratings.. just look at american idol, donald trump vs. rosie, and all that nonsense...

Just to be clear JoAT, in other words, you and your family are not "Real Indians". Officially.

Yes apparently. Thanx shot down two days in a row. Yesterday I didn't count as anyone, in fact I was fictional. Today I'm not even Indian.

Does anyone have the OFCOM email address? The Brit tipster on the news tab asks Yanks to email them, but did not leave an email contact. We should all get on their backs.

JOAT, are you from Bombay? Also, do you have relatives in other cities/towns in Maharashtra? If yes, is English their "primary" language?

This is Ofcom's complaints page: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/complain/progs/bb/?itemid=363194

Complain if the clips pissed you off, then they can say the show is generating complaints from North American desis as well.

Back on Greer, Ms. Shetty isn't even Tamil. And then she berates the English for being ignorant....

Tamil, Schamil. What matters to Greer is she's persecuted for being eunich, so she's learnt how to play to the crowd, like this:

Her only motive for parading in front of the other women in the house with whitener on her face was to show what utter hicks they are, how little they understand of her complex reality or of a billion people in the subcontinent who all want to have wheat-coloured skin. I bet thousands of brown-skinned girls in Southall fell off the sofa laughing when she did that.

I find the cold-hearted-tactician Greer sees in Shilpa more fascinating than the crybaby image being projected everywhere else. Yo Shilpa, use their ignorance like a knife. ;)

The most (unintentionally) comic line in Greer's article is this:

They have never seen a Hindi movie and never heard of Shilpa Shetty, or even Sharukh Khan, and they probably don't have any Indian friends.

Notice that she spelt Shahrukh wrong.

Boy, where to even begin.

Technophobicgeek: You're right, we have always respectfully agreed to disagree on this matter. Please understand I am merely stating my opinion and feelings on this subject. I am not trying to define what "Indian" is (except insofar as I feel strongly about certain things, for whatever that's worth). I certainly don't have any more of a right than you have to define these issues or decide these issues.

Desisiksha:

Rest assured, I find your comments as annoying as you apparently find mine. And that's not a personal attack. But no hard feelings, it's a discussion after all. Just to address a few things you said: First of all I know you're South Indian, I never implied that Hindi is your language. Although I was using Hindi in this particular debate, my argument extends in defense of all Indian languages. I also understand that you come from two different linguistic backgrounds parentally, and (as you've made clear) you're very urbane and educated, so probably you don't have a strong attachment to any one particular Indian language. No problem. But my point is, that English is rapidly taking over India, and people with your attitude only hasten the process. In 1947 English was an elite language. Today it is a middle class language (keep in mind the middle class is rapidly expanding). In a generation or two it will extend to the urban poor, and EVENTUALLY even the rural areas (probably more rapidly then we think). And just as has happened in your family, it will become people's FIRST LANGUAGE. Although it won't happen in our lifetime, would you like to see India become an English-speaking country one day, just like Canada, the US, UK, and Australia? (By the way, you're not the only one here whose relatives all speak English...that's true of me too, going back two generations at least).

The problem with people adopting English as their first language is, that it necessarily (in most cases) means the loss of your own, inherited first language, which gets downgraded to second language status. This is fine if you're an immigrant in a foreign land...it's even fine if you move to a different part of India (like Technophobicgeek's parents), or come from more than one linguistic background (like you)...but why should it happen to people living in their native region, surrounded by their co-ethnics? In other words, isn't there something wrong if Punjabi parents, living in Punjab, opt not to speak Punjabi with their kids? If Gujarati parents, living in Gujarat, opt to make English their home language? Why? Where's the pride?

I notice that most of the Indian-raised defenders of English on this site are people who for various reasons, speak English as their first language, and want to defend that circumstance and that status at all costs, rather than admit there's a problem here. They don't want to question the way they've been raised, the values and unspoken assumptions/attitudes that have pervaded their home and school and social lives since they were born. Reality has to adjust to accomodate THEM. What they say goes, because they said so. If they declare that English is an Indian language, we must all accept that.

Maybe this would be a good time to spell out my attitude towards English. First of all, on a purely personal level, it has helped my family a lot, since both my parents went to English-medium schools, became professionals, and moved to the US and became successful, in very large part due to their English skills. More generally, I acknowledge that it is THE global language, the language of commerce, science, technology, trade, travel, even entertainment. And I know India is benefitting tremendously by having a large English-speaking work force. I would never want to do away with that. BUT I hate the fact that it is marginalising and strangling (to death) Indian languages, one family at a time. I have no problem with it being a second language, a link language, the lingua franca (and I don't think Hindi should be imposed on anyone either)...I hate the fact that is is becoming people's first language (including my own relatives who still live in India). I hate the fact that it is rendering our languages more and more irrelevant, more and more obsolete and obscure. I hate the very things that Sakshi, Kush, and Doordarshan have alluded to, in terms of the use of English to maintain the status quo and the social/economic position and advantages of the few. Neo-colonialism would be a good term for it. Don't get me wrong, it is a beautiful language (although no more so than Hindi or Punjabi in my view).

Languages die when one generation fails to transmit them to the next. Look around you...in India that process is well underway. India is in the same position Ireland was in about 200 years ago...the majority still spoke Irish, but the necessary preconditions were already in place for English to take over, and it did just that. Today they struggle in a hopeless battle to revive their Irish language. India should make sure that never happens. My 2 cents. I could go on but I'm tired.

Maybe this will make the Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian. Although Shilpa is better than most in terms of maintaining some Indian culture and representing. My comments are aimed more at the likes of Abhishek, Preiti Zinta, Saif Ali Khan, etc.

Amitabh, you hit the nail on the head.

I am waiting for the day when people will feel ashamed when they cannot talk, read, and write in their own mother tongue. I am waiting for the day when expertise in one's mother tongue will be every society's norm. Anything less will be a violation of expectations. And people will make fun of those (whichever country they belong to) who talk in their mother tongues with an accent.

Languages are dying a slow death.

The problem with people adopting English as their first language is, that it necessarily (in most cases) means the loss of your own, inherited first language, which gets downgraded to second language status.

i was at a reading of native writers this evening. the need to perpetuate their language among the new generation was discussed. one interesting point a writer made was that languages do not serve the communication function alone. for instance the equivalent for 'baby' in mohawk is 'little spirit'. language is a prism into the world and is thus irreplaceable.

i remember reading an article about how many languages were dying each year or would soon become extinct, and it was eye-opening. can't remember the exact source though.

but this project is interesting: http://www.rosettastone.com/en/endangered-languages

the rosetta stone people are involved in an indigenous language preservation project.

hairy_d:

one interesting point a writer made was that languages do not serve the communication function alone. for instance the equivalent for 'baby' in mohawk is 'little spirit'. language is a prism into the world and is thus irreplaceable.

That was v nicely said.

Amitabh:

Languages die when one generation fails to transmit them to the next. Look around you...in India that process is well underway. India is in the same position Ireland was in about 200 years ago...the majority still spoke Irish, but the necessary preconditions were already in place for English to take over, and it did just that. Today they struggle in a hopeless battle to revive their Irish language. India should make sure that never happens. My 2 cents. I could go on but I'm tired.

I think you are being a tad too pessimistic. In my family everyone still uses their mother tongue. Its not a pride issue-we just do it because we are more comfortable with it. Also look at the growth of vernacular language news channels in India. I do not believe english is the death knell for Indian languages. Its easy to know enough english to get by, and still remember your mother tongue.

What I am desperately waiting for is someone to start serious translations of works of non-english Indian literature into english. That might provide the much-needed financial boost to save Indian literature from dying out (the situation is dire - a bestseller will sell 2000 copies in most languages).

and (as you've made clear) you're very urbane and educated, so probably you don't have a strong attachment to any one particular Indian language.

Amitabh - You have nicely summed up your feelings in #125.
I can easily identify with a lot of things that you have said, but at the same time, a part of me feels that you are magnifying the problem. The ground reality is not so bleak ..at least not yet.

I'm from the hindi speaking belt, did my schooling in a catholic school and grew up speaking Hindi at home. My school was quite strict in enforcing students to speak English all the time, and occasionally 'fined' the defaulters. In spite of all this, most of my friends spoke English only when specifically asked to do so. This was in the mid 90s. Now when I go back and meet those guys, I find it odd that they're talking to their 3 year old in English..with a few hindi words sprinkled in between. Yet I'm sure that the kid will grow up just fine, inherit all the cultural 'fortunes' from his parents and speak both Hindi and English with ease. I'm contradicting myself..but for some reason I don't find this setup as something artificial.

What I do find artificial is the fact that people in India talk to their dogs exclusively in English :)
Tommy...sit, come here....go there...nice doggie.

still take pride in my mother-tounge.

Sorry for the typo. The last line wasn't supposed to be there (though its true) :)

Hi, I just found this blog--

I don't really anything to say about Ms. Shetty except that the whole incident seems vastly overblown and a little embarrassing. Mocking her accent, cooking, background etc. might seem a little extreme but it's a reality show. They go for conflict. I don't think it reveals the dark underbelly of British race relations or anything. It's just not that significant.

About the native languages and English--I'm so glad someone brought this up because I've been thinking about it a lot for a while now. I'm an Indian-American (born in America) and in my family, we all speak our native language (Bengali) at home and I used to think that was the norm. I'm now seeing that it's not so. I'm concerned about the declining importance of Indian native languages. I don't want Hindi and Punjabi and Gujurati and Bengali to go the way of Irish. Language is such an important marker of cultural identity. I just don't understand why it's not possible for Indians today to view English in the way that the earlier generation did: as an important second language but still, clearly in a completely different category from their mother tongue.

And in any case, the world's dominant language of diplomacy and intellectual exchange doesn't remain static. It won't be English forever.

The problem with people adopting English as their first language is, that it necessarily (in most cases) means the loss of your own, inherited first language, which gets downgraded to second language status.

I don't think that's true. Many people are truly bilingual. And it's not like you can get through the Indian schooling system, no matter how elite of a school you go to, without learning an Indian language or two.

@namitabh

Aishwariya is a Kannadiga! (sorry, feeling a little home pride there)

home "pride" :)? i am kannadiga too, and this is an enduring source of shame for me---she is pretty of course, though i think she stands out for her height and PR more than looks (i am thinking of my high school class... those were the days, but i digress). but she is equally phony and pretentious, something the pretty girls of my class were not :).

What I do find artificial is the fact that people in India talk to their dogs exclusively in English :) Tommy...sit, come here....go there...nice doggie.

I just don't understand why it's not possible for Indians today to view English in the way that the earlier generation did: as an important second language but still, clearly in a completely different category from their mother tongue.

@desishiksa
That's funny...my dog is the only person I talk to in Malayalam :)

um.. desishiksa.. your dog is not a person

um.. desishiksa.. your dog is not a person

He is too. And he wants you all to know that he only barks in his mother tongue and has no interest in learning English whatsoever.

Wow. This thread is not even closely related to Shilpa now..

Anyway, though I am under some pressure to be supporting a sister and all that, from the few Youtube clips that I saw, she is pretty bossy and quite irritating at times. I am not trying to rationalize any of the racist behaviour, but some of the stuff she says is quite .. 'blah'

Anybody else feeling that??

Because that would necessitate people marrying only within their own linguistic group, or for one spouse to give up speaking their language in favor of the other, or for both spouses to become fluent in both languages.

Yes, I can see the logic there.

I, for one, see english as an Indian language: it is certainly spoken by a significant portion of the population. My only issues are with the have/have-not divide it creates in India, and also that it might swamp out other languages.

I remember once when I was in India, there were a group of middle to upper-middle class kids playing on the street. A kamwali-bai left her kid nearby while she went to a shop to get something. The group of kids kept trying to talk to the bai's kid in english, who kept mutely staring back with wide-eyed fascination. In the end they started pushing him around and making comments to each other, such as how dark/dirty he was (the kid, of course, could not understand a thing). I had to move the little kid away cos they might have hurt him. I am not suggesting that all kids in India are like that, but I have never been able to forget that incident, and how blatantly it brought out the class and language divide.

I am waiting for the day when people will feel ashamed when they cannot talk, read, and write in their own mother tongue.

I feel terrible that I can't speak or write Bengali as good as English.. I know a few people who are in similar circumstances, and feel the same way. That is not a completely alien emotion.

I'm from the hindi speaking belt, did my schooling in a catholic school and grew up speaking Hindi at home. My school was quite strict in enforcing students to speak English all the time, and occasionally 'fined' the defaulters.

Yeah.. Something similar happened in our school. That fining business was the most ridiculous thing.

On a slightly unrelated note, I was wondering why people haven't bitched about Macaulay yet??

I was watching the Big Brother controversy on FOX News and CNN, and I was saying to myself "Please don't let Jermaine Jackson be among those making fun of Shilpa. We're already ticked off at Michael, Janet and LaToya."

JOAT, are you from Bombay? Also, do you have relatives in other cities/towns in Maharashtra? If yes, is English their "primary" language?

I do have relatives spread in Nasik, Pune and Nagpur and some other places, most of them are actually educators and while there was more marathi in their house than English, English was always around. I see however with my cousins kids the grandparents talk to them in English and it's quite common.

What I do find artificial is the fact that people in India talk to their dogs exclusively in English :) Tommy...sit, come here....go there...nice doggie.

That's funny...my dog is the only person I talk to in Malayalam :)

I talk to my cat in Marathi as well so does my mother who will turn around and talk to me in English, which I didn't think there was anything wrong with till someone said something to me about it.

I feel terrible that I can't speak or write Bengali as good as English.. I know a few people who are in similar circumstances, and feel the same way. That is not a completely alien emotion.

I know so many people who feel the same way. I have a very close friend who was born here and his parents always talked to him in English and never passed Marathi on and I swear I hear about it every day how he regrets not absorbing it. My brother who was 7 and spoke Marathi very well when he came here has for the most part totally lost it because no one spoke to him at home because of language issues with my stepmom. He will understand a little if you talk to him but spoken, nope. He has however as a result of all the desis he hangs out with picked up Hindi. Go figure.

This is on BBC over NPR at the moment. They are calling it an "international embarrassing incident" for England!

Amitabh,
I dont think English is taking over India, yet. Let me give an example.
- In 1991 when STAR News (Murdoch company) started a 24 hour news service in India, it was followed by "Aaj Tak" a 24 hour news channel in Hindi.
- Soon STAR news found that "Aaj Tak" which did the news in Hindi had several times more viewership than their news which was done in English.
- They soon changed to Hindi news and had a chance to really compete with "Aaj Tak".

So even today those who use spoken English exclusively at home/work in India are a small elite minority. When it comes to consumer product (news channel is one of them) the language medium is still the local langugage.

Another data point about the flourishing local language is the health of the print media in India. Print media (news papers) is experiencing a boom in India (which is mainly in local languages) while it is declining rapidly in the US.

I realized that the language debate is going on in a thread about the Shilp Shetty situation.

How completely ridiculously blown out of proportions is the whole thing?? Some MP in the UK brought it up in the UK house, WTF? TOI is all over it too.

Another gem from TOI is a headline "Shilpa's racial slur won't hit Indo-UK ties: FM "

Can this get any more blown out of proportions??? Geez!!

Its a stupid "reality" show, where most things are not "real".

Maybe this will make the Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian. Although Shilpa is better than most in terms of maintaining some Indian culture and representing. My comments are aimed more at the likes of Abhishek, Preiti Zinta, Saif Ali Khan, etc.

Amitabh, How did you miss the pretentious Aishwarya Rai who was complaining "Why do people think I dont know English" on Oprah.

She also said "People think I am educated abroad" Anyways. Coming to think of it Paz Vega speaks in Spanish and is proud not to be forcing english onto herself. That is so sexy.

How completely ridiculously blown out of proportions is the whole thing?? Some MP in the UK brought it up in the UK house, WTF? TOI is all over it too.

It's beyond that. The Indian government raised the issue formally with the UK high commissioner ... while Gordon Brown is visiting India, undoubtedly to reaffirm the Indo-British "special relationship." My only hope is that some feckless Indian lad doesn't decide to self-immolate in protest.

Well hey, I can't blame her. Just as she should have expected that a reality show would have been filled with jerks, her rivals should have understood that she would use any leverage she could get. Calling them out on their racism is pretty damn smart strategy.

I see however with my cousins kids the grandparents talk to them in English and it's quite common.

This is my point...it's common...but to me at least, it's wrong. We HAVE our mothertongues...why should we replace that with English? I see no reason why English can't be the second language...but why should (in this example) Maharashtrian people, living in Maharashtra, presumably fluent in Marathi, be nonetheless conversing at home with family members in English? There is something really wrong with us. And believe me, it WILL affect the quality of the (Marathi in this example) spoken by the next generation.

there was more marathi in their house than English,

JOAT, this is actually the normal situation in most parts of the world.

In spite of all this, most of my friends spoke English only when specifically asked to do so. This was in the mid 90s. Now when I go back and meet those guys, I find it odd that they're talking to their 3 year old in English..with a few hindi words sprinkled in between.

What language do you think those 3 year old will speak with THEIR kids 25 years from now? I'll give you a hint...most probably English.

Are you therefore implying that anyone with a strong attachment to an Indian language is unsophisticated and uneducated?

That's not going to work on me. Try again.

And it's not like you can get through the Indian schooling system, no matter how elite of a school you go to, without learning an Indian language or two.

This opens up another can of worms...first of all it is absolutely possible not to really learn an Indian language well. When your parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, friends, and neighbours all speak English with you all the time, and you go to an English-medium school, where Indian languages are just one subject in an otherwise overwhelmingly English atmosphere, then of course it's possible. But here I'll admit that much of the fault lies with the fact that extremely Sanskritised (or in the case of Tamil, very archaic forms) of Indian languages are promoted, very different from what people actually speak. So it becomes like learning a dead language like Latin or something...not something you actually speak. This is compounded by the fact that in India so much of 'education' is rote memorization for the purpose of exams...it's not real knowledge or understanding. Indian languages tend to be poorly taught in English-medium schools anyway. Bottom line, I have met people from Mumbai who can not speak more than just the absolute minimum basics of Hindi.

Because that would necessitate people marrying only within their own linguistic group, or for one spouse to give up speaking their language in favor of the other, or for both spouses to become fluent in both languages. English is my mother tongue, and I'm not ashamed of it.

In the present time, this situation (marrying outside one's group) applies to only a small fraction of even the urban middle class, so I hardly condider it a reason to jettison one's mothertongue. What about the very large numbers of people who marry WITHIN their linguistic group, yet still make English their mothertongue and home language? As for English being your mothertongue, good for you, but I will never consider it my mothertongue (even though I speak it better than anything else). It's a matter of basic pride which comes naturally to most people, but seems to escape a lot of Indians. Since you grew up with everyone including your grandparents speaking English to you, you don't know what if feels like to see the degradation of your mothertongue within your own lifetime (and I'm only 35 so we're not talking eons here). The two languages I know (Hindi and Punjabi) have both seen significant degradations in quality and vocabulary over the past generation.

On a side note...if I was a little more fluent in Hindi, I'd make it a point to speak it in 5 star hotels and the like, and other places and situations where it's deemed 'inappropriate', just to piss people off...the problem is that I make grammatical mistakes and have to pause to think sentences out in my head sometimes, so it takes a lot of the edge off the intended provocation. When I was in Punjab, I tried talking Punjabi and people told me to speak in English so they didn't have to hear me butcher the language.

Amitabh, I could not agree more with what you said in #125. (BTW, I went to a Jesuit English medium school in India and am more fluent not only in English but also in German than I am in my mother tongue, Marathi, which I can speak, read and write).

Anyone with the inclination and the time, PLEASE read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_death

Amitabh I don't disagree with you was just offering my miniscule viewpoint on what has been going on around me. After seeing so many people who have lost their languages because of English in the homes in my lifetime I'm determined to not lose Marathi. I have only learnt to appreciate it's depth and emotion with age. I used to think it was rather silly when I was younger. I used to be able to read and write it fairly fast and am struggling with it now though I can still speak it purely.

I'm seeing a resurgence with some of my friends and their approach to their languages. Many speak exclusively in their tongue with their kid at home before the kid ever hits school/preschool etc so the kid pretty much doesn't learn any English which s/he isn't required to technically because it's so easy to pick up for a kid when s/he hits school and that is exactly what has happened. The 5/6 year olds I know speak very clear Gujrati/Punjabi/Marathi as a result of the parents never teaching them English.

Quick updates,
1)Gordon Brown, Jack Straw, Tony Blair have had to express their opinions
2)OFCOm complaints reached 30,000
3) Shilpa finally asked is this because I'm Indian. Channel 4 had been claiming she has not complained about the abuse.
4) Protests in Patna where some effigies of Channel 4 producers were burnt (huh! what!)
5)The major sponosr Carphone backed out today afternoon
6) Shilpa and one of her main tormentors are up for the boot on Friday

extremely Sanskritised (or in the case of Tamil, very archaic forms) of Indian languages are promoted, very different from what people actually speak. So it becomes like learning a dead language like Latin or something...not something you actually speak

Amitabh, I'm not sure i follow you here. So you're only for learning languages like Hindi in school, but not Tamil? Tamil is widely spoken, not just in Tamil Nadu, but in a few south indian cities too.
I'm not Tamilian and i don't speak Tamil,but Tamil being likened to a dead language that is not spoken is totally false. I'm not sure if you just happened to give a bad example here or really believe that languages like Tamil(or maybe other South Indian languages) are dead languages.
Out of curiosity, have you been to South India or do you have many south Indian friends? No offence, but from what i read, your model of the "problem" is a little skewed.

Amitabh, I'm not sure i follow you here. So you're only for learning languages like Hindi in school, but not Tamil? Tamil is widely spoken, not just in Tamil Nadu, but in a few south indian cities too. I'm not Tamilian and i don't speak Tamil,but Tamil being likened to a dead language that is not spoken is totally false. I'm not sure if you just happened to give a bad example here or really believe that languages like Tamil(or maybe other South Indian languages) are dead languages. Out of curiosity, have you been to South India or do you have many south Indian friends? No offence, but from what i read, your model of the "problem" is a little skewed.

How you managed to surmise the above from my comment is beyond me. I was simply stating that the versions of Indian languages taught in schools are often very divergent from the way people actually speak them, and in an English-medium environment especially, tend to encourage people to just memorise what they need to pass exams and be done with it. Tamil is by no means a dead language. I was just mentioning that the literary form is very different than the (various) spoken forms. And I don't say that Hindi should be taught and not south Indian languages. I would like ALL Indian languages to be preserved and maintained as healthy, living, mothertongues by their respective populations. I even stated that Hindi should not be imposed on anyone, and I have no problem with English being the link language of the country.

Protests in Patna

I love Patna.

More on languages. Written in angezee.

Also, I'm certainly not trying to tell Tamils what to do with the Tamil language.

I dont see the media showing any outrage over this overblown situation.

as risible and Red point out the Government of India is involved in this. Dont they have more pressing needs?? How about the problem of not allowing Dalits into a temple, which happens even today.

Never under-estimate the stupidity of people.

extremely Sanskritised (or in the case of Tamil, very archaic forms) of Indian languages are promoted, very different from what people actually speak.

my experience. i have spent a few years in that system learning hindi - and my perspective is that it isnt the archaic hindi but the utter boringness of the literature used to teach the language that turns people off. i barely managed to squeeze through - getting the bare minimum above the passing threshold to keep afloat - (my buddies always suspected somebody pulled strings to keep me afloat because i was acing everything else. funnily, it was the same with swahili :-)

the difference between my absorption of the three languages i've been exposed to english, hindi, and swahili was the quality of reading i got. like heck i'm interested in harivanshrai bachan or maithilisharan gupt. i wanted boy's adventures - and my parents had the foresight to get me loads of classics - kidnapped, swiss family robinson, talisman, white fang, call of the wild, treasure island, robinson crusoe, ... - abridged and translated in hindi - and i read all this before the age of ten - and that's what has stuck- that was the difference... of course i ran out of adventure stories in hindi and english literature was just so much more prolific.

on a related note - somebody commented in the reading yesterday - that with the new technologies like podcasting, audiobooks etc - this is a potent way to keep languages alive, plus communicate the pronunciation of words that can not be correctly presened via transliteration.

ok got a call to make. ta ta. hang loose.

and to stay on topic. that shilpa has a nice .... ahh never mind. ;-)

Hey, Seeing as this is a Shilpa Shetty thread...

At last count she speaks Eight languages. That'll solve all our problems won't it. What a model Indian she is. We should all speak 8 languages. Starting with the North Indians ;)

Amitabh,

you are my man. It is not one universality pitted against many local customs, but many universalities co-existing peacefully. I couldn't agree with you more, and here's a bhojpuri song as a tribute. You know, when we were kids we used to play this game: we would speak for half an hour amongst ourselves, without using any english word. for every english word used, we had to pay a 50 paisa fine. Our bengali would improve and we would be surprisingly aware of Lamarck's law of use and disuse! Let us be friends!

ok. i am embarassed about #162. total windiness. not my style. i was distracted. blame it on shilpa's round gaaaand.

From comment #1 it seems like Amitabh has a problem with the lack of authenticity more than anything else. Bollywood actors and actresses don't seem to live the lives they project in the movies... but so what? Why should we expect their lives to reflect the majority reality? Considering celebrity/hollywood culture, we expect them to be different.

blame it on shilpa's round gaaaand.

I am a Telugu too who waqs brought up outside Andhra Pradesh, but learnt to read Telugu on my own volition, but am not very fluent in it. It is English that I think, dream and communicate in. I just wish I could be more fluent in one or more Indian langiage so that I could read all the great literature in Telugu, Tamil, Kannada, Bengali, Marathi. What is this education system that alienates me from my 'own' language?

Amitabh:

On a side note...if I was a little more fluent in Hindi, I'd make it a point to speak it in 5 star hotels and the like, and other places and situations where it's deemed 'inappropriate', just to piss people off.

I do this all the time when I go to India. If I'm the one initiating a conversation, then I use Hindi (when talking to someone in North India). I do make it a point to ask "kya aapko hindi nahin aati ?" ..if the other person replies in English.

Amitabh, clearer now. I see i misunderstood what you were actually trying to say.

Another update on the Shilpa incident:

UK Perfumery chain The Perfume Shop have dropped the Shh... by Jade Goody perfume from its stores after accusations of racism by Goody in the Channel Four television programme, Celebrity Big Brother.

Here's another:

Danielle Lloyd has been dumped from a lucrative modelling contract as a result of the CBB row. The former Miss England signed a 12-month deal at the end of last year to be the face of motorcycle insurance firm Bennetts.

I do this all the time when I go to India. If I'm the one initiating a conversation, then I use Hindi (when talking to someone in North India). I do make it a point to ask "kya aapko hindi nahin aati ?" ..if the other person replies in English.

Totally, totally, totally hate it when people do this to me. Although obviously doing it in India would make more sense...

It's the lead story on yahoo....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070118/wl_afp/afpentertainmentbritain_07011810415

I do this all the time when I go to India. If I'm the one initiating a conversation, then I use Hindi (when talking to someone in North India). I do make it a point to ask "kya aapko hindi nahin aati ?" ..if the other person replies in English.

#175 The Turnip,
Standard anti-Hindi tangential post. Nowhere ever anyone said that use Hindi in Tamilnadu in this thread. brown_fob talked about talking in Hindi in North India. But it never fails ... whenever someone makes a comment about local language, there is someone without fail, who would take ridiculous extreme position.

Danielle Lloyd has been dumped from a lucrative modelling contract as a result of the CBB row. The former Miss England signed a 12-month deal at the end of last year to be the face of motorcycle insurance firm Bennetts.

UK Perfumery chain The Perfume Shop have dropped the Shh... by Jade Goody perfume from its stores after accusations of racism by Goody in the Channel Four television programme, Celebrity Big Brother.

Shilpa is really irritating, laughing hysterically for no reasons and talking about chicken...chicken...chicken all the time. Pathetic.

RC@176:
oh no! not anti-hindi. anti "my way or the highway" certainly. but you point is taken, everyone has their personal likes and dislikes that may not stand upto rationale.

Totally, totally, totally hate it when people do this to me. Although obviously doing it in India would make more sense...

Just to make things clear, I do it in India (and not here in the US), more specifically in North India (where Hindi is the predominant language). I don't do this with people whose mother-tounge in not Hindi...that'd be just plain rude on my part.

Turnip:

The question, posed the way you have implies, "what, you are in my territory and you don't speak Hindi?".

Turnip:

anti "my way or the highway" certainly.

If this weren't the case, then the highways would have been awfully crowded in North India.

Maybe this will make the Bollywood types realise that no matter how westernised they get and no matter how expert at English they become, they're still Indian. Although Shilpa is better than most in terms of maintaining some Indian culture and representing. My comments are aimed more at the likes of Abhishek, Preiti Zinta, Saif Ali Khan, etc.

I'm actually responding to my own quote above. After seeing some Big Brother clips, I think maybe I was being a bit too harsh. The clips are painful to watch. The way those people treated Shilpa is very poor. Well, they made themselves look like idiots in international tv. I just hope Germaine Greer is right and Shilpa is actually controlling and manipulating the situation to some extent. She's certainly handled herself with dignity, confidence, and pride.

The one chick, (Danielle?) is good-looking, but sounds like a complete moron everytime she opens her mouth. The other one (Jade?) is just a very mean, low-class specimen who should be humbled that Shilpa even deigns to talk to her.

The Greer article was nonsensical and scattered. Even as she got her subject's sub-ethinicity wrong (non-trivial as she uses it to buttress her larger point) I'm dying to know how the famed shock jockette is so sure of harassment against the Tamil community in suburban Bombay. She also needs to understand that "Paki" isn't merely a benign abbreviation of a nationality.

The article grows even more curious as I pick up this tidbit about Greer from Wikipedia:

She was one of eight contestants in
the 2005 UK series of Celebrity Big Brother. She had previously said that the show was "as civilized as looking through the keyhole in your teenager's bedroom door". She walked out of the show after five days inside the "Big Brother house", citing the psychological cruelty and bullying of the show's producers, the dirt of the house, and the publicity-seeking behavior of her fellow contestants.

The Greer article was nonsensical and scattered.

Greer's always like that. What the hells a female eunuch anyway? Her salty brand of feminism is an acquired taste. Her nuanced approach to racism, where one takes the time out to blame the victim, may be wrong on the details but is right on target...especially when Shilpa parades around with skin whitener on.

Yeah, she missed the "Paki" thing but that's because she doesn't like to take the easy shot. She even flips the skin whitener incident around. To her it shows how ignorant the housemates are, how they lack consciousness of their own white privilege; like they haven't taken enough white studies classes or something. Not an easy shot, but she made it. Gotta admire that.

Re: language discussion

I'll just state that while on holiday in India, as a European-bred Desi I feel completely Lost In Translation. Reason? Well, exactly because of those aspects that folks like Amitabh seem so keen to preserve. Namely it is simply impossible to get involved in daily life in India without knowing some sort of Indian language. As someone who over the years has almost completely lost her command of her mother tongue(Tamil) and never learned Hindi, it's just impossible to fit in in India. I was travelling alone in India this past year and even at a helpdesk at Delhi airport it is simply impossible to procure an answer in English. Forget about even watching the telly, every single show or advertisement on the mainstream channels is in Hindi. While, in my opinion, English is as much of an Indian language as Tamil or Marathi. It just makes sense to have English as a unifying factor in a country where there are hundreds of languages and dialects present. I realise these may just be the gripes of an ignorant foreign desi but oh well. Languages evolve and some die as well, that's just a fact which has been proven through time...there is nothing anyone can do about it.

especially when Shilpa parades around with skin whitener on.

manju dude,

it was primarily a hair remover. a lot of things shilpa is doing that might be OK or not a big deal or is the way in India. walking yourself around in a state of make-up/ shave, etc. is not uncommon in India at all. Sure, there is a cultural clash, and plainly being from different parts of the world. No doubt, Shilpa being an actress knows to manipulate the system and has survived Bollywood......all this said, those women ganged up on her pretty fast, and are showing very little decency.

In past (or when she was somewhat iconic), i have have read Greer off and on. However, now she has completely lost it. Her days are long over. On the article we are discussing, she missing the main point.....low level racism creeping pretty quick.

it was primarily a hair remover

O crap! I haven't watched the show and assumed Greer's facts were accurate, which is never a good idea with her kind. I blame Kobayashi.

Just a word on language:

In the IB program in my city, my 10th graders must complete a personal project that's a year long endeavor into a subject of their choice. I think many folks here will be heartened to know what two desi 3rd gen. kids picked as their personal projects. Jeff chose learning classical Indian dance and did a performance for the school. Sita learned Kannada in under a year from her grandparents.

On the article we are discussing, she missing the main point.....low level racism creeping pretty quick

God Bless the Capitalists!...speaking Truth to Power!

I blame Kobayashi.

I would too. Kobayashi likes to wave arms, and be on the right (or left as the wind blows) side.

If you walked @ 6:00 AM in a crowded locality in India, you would see women in their haldi face or some face freshner, and a long nightie getting dodh (milk) from dodhwallah (milk man), chatting with other women. It is a cultural thing. You would not see it in US.

Men in India take 1/2 hour to shave, they read newspaper and drink chai while they have shaving cream on their face.

especially when Shilpa parades around with skin whitener on

it was primarily a hair remover.

OK boys you are both wrong.

It is facial hair bleach not just common in India but quite common in the western world and one of Sally Hansen's top seller. Nothing wrong with bleaching facial hair you don't want to be visible so they blend with your skin. And the parading around...come on it's all women. That is what women do with each other. There is nothing cultural about it. It's just how women behave when they live with other women.

And the parading around...come on it's all women. That is what women do with each other. There is nothing cultural about it. It's just how women behave when they live with other women.

It is facial hair bleach not just common in India but quite common in the western world and one of Sally Hansen's top seller.

You might be right. Here is the bleaching incident.

It starts with "are you hairy", and then moves to "she wants to be white". Can't anyone smell the rat?

The whole thing is Ms. Greer wanted to grandstand, and some of us wanted to "hooray her"

I saw the whole episode. Personally I think those women were being total bitches because one of them has dark hair and one of them was a former beauty queen, they knew what bleach was! If a woman in the west who has to worry about what she looks like and puts makeup on doesn't know what facial bleach is she's lying especially after Shilpa explained what it was. A moron would know what facial hair bleach is so when they said 'you want to be white' it was quite obvious it was a racist approach to trying to rile her up. To me as a woman it's quite clear.

Men in India take 1/2 hour to shave, they read newspaper and drink chai while they have shaving cream on their face.

In my brahmanic household, my mom would throw me out of the house if I did anything else, or even moved to any other part of the home, while shaving. :-)

That is what women do with each other. There is nothing cultural about it. It's just how women behave when they live with other women.

That begs the question: how are the guys behaving with Shilpa? Any perceived racism from their side? (sorry if I am the only one with this question: i haven't had a chance to watch the clips yet).

I saw the show, and its awful. The house members Danielle,Jo,Jade and her disgusting boyfriend are being very racist toward her. The mother got kicked off, but she showed absolutely no remorse for how she treated Shilpa...but instead made excuses about how she had trouble pronouncing her name. It had nothing to do with her pronouncing her name...Her and the others are jealous because Shilpa is Indian, she has money and servants and they feel no Indian people deserve any of it. Its disgusting.
Did anyone see when some housemates asked Shilpa how many servants she had? They had smug looks on their faces when she told them how many.

And then all the remarks about her...like when the woman's boyfriend called her a "cunt"...

Its disgusting how people can be.

Its a sad fact that racism is everywhere

I saw a clip of the show. How is it possible to volunteerily watch that show?? I think it should be used as a method of torture at Gitmo :-) It sounds so fake and wierd. Is it just me who cant imagine watching a show like Big Brother??

That begs the question: how are the guys behaving with Shilpa? Any perceived racism from their side? (sorry if I am the only one with this question: i haven't had a chance to watch the clips yet).

None of the men, except for one's dimwitted teenage boyfriend, had any problems with Shilpa. The house is down to three men (and the teenager) now. And none of them really want to get in the middle of it--though it's quite clear that they are on Shilpa's side and console her after each incident.

Re Hindi. It's funny despite the widespread use of what I call "Aaj Tak" hindi, very few people read Hindi literature. If you compare publishing in Hindi to publishing in Bengali, Malyalam or Tamil, the numbers are hugely disproportionate. I understand this is a generalization (caveat caveat), but I find that urban English speaking Malyalis, Kannadiga, Marathis or Bengalis, generally read more literature than Hindi speaking members of the same social class.

In Bengal, Puja times sees the publication of a huge range of books and magazines covering all genres from detective stories, science fiction to nonsense verse U.R. Ananthamurthy is political and cultural force to reckon with in Karnataka. Malyali authors are household names, but writers in Hindi are rarely seen or heard outside Sahitya Kala Akademi conferences.

I am willing to be corrected, but from what I have seen the Hindi belt lacks a reading culture.

but from what I have seen the Hindi belt lacks a reading culture.

I agree with some of your points. However,

Some of the greatest Indian (prose) writers have been from Hindi belt writing in Hindi-Urdu (in addition to other parts of India, obviously from Bengal). To name a few of them:

1) Munshi Premchand (the Shakespeare of India)
2) Guleri
3) Bhisham Sahani (one of the most powerful modern writer)

Munshi Perchand is the household name in India.

Now to poems, Mirza Galib. No even comes close.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3932975a12.html

"Indian papers say racism thrives in India"

"While condemning "racist jibes" thrown at a Bollywood star on Celebrity Big Brother, several major Indian newspapers said the country should examine its own prejudices before expressing national outrage."

""Discrimination on the basis of colour is ingrained in the psyche of most Indians," the newspaper said. "What else explains the quest for the holy grail of fair brides across the country?"

"Many of India's one billion people still live within a hierarchy imposed by the Hindu caste system that, for example, stops low castes entering some important temples decades after such discrimination was outlawed."

""Indian responses should also factor in our own record of prejudice . . . If racism is a fact in many interactions in British society, prejudice is a quotidian reality of Indian social life," the Indian Express said in its editorial. While in Britian there were institutions in place to deal with discrimination and Western nations were alert to racist attitudes, the Express concluded, in India the victims of such abuse often have nowhere to turn."

Re Hindi. It's funny despite the widespread use of what I call "Aaj Tak" hindi, very few people read Hindi literature. If you compare publishing in Hindi to publishing in Bengali, Malyalam or Tamil, the numbers are hugely disproportionate. I understand this is a generalization (caveat caveat), but I find that urban English speaking Malyalis, Kannadiga, Marathis or Bengalis, generally read more literature than Hindi speaking members of the same social class.

As a hindi speaker, I am sorry to say I'll mostly have to agree with you. There was a strong reading culture around Lucknow and Allahabad even till the mid 1970s, with a sizable readership for both hindi and urdu(There were excellent literary magazines such as Sarika, Dharmayug, etc). However, it declined, partly because the elite anglicized (perhaps due to proximity to Delhi). Also writing in hindi became strongly politicized with a communist ideology(nothing hurts literature more than subservience to an ideology).

My parents mostly encouraged me to read tranlations from bengali and tamil instead of hindi, because they felt contemporary hindi literature's lack of quality.

None of the men, except for one's dimwitted teenage boyfriend, had any problems with Shilpa. The house is down to three men (and the teenager) now. And none of them really want to get in the middle of it--though it's quite clear that they are on Shilpa's side and console her after each incident.

In my experience men usually target men for racism and it is not always verbal... like the last time two white dudes threatened to cut my balls with their halloween sword as I walked to my apartment.

@Doordarshan,

Those are some pretty good points to reflect on. At the beginning of this whole thing I found myself thinking, how the housemates have been completely obnoxious towards an Indian, didn't think much about the fact that she was a Bollywood star (honestly, I find Shilpa's Bollywood record rather unimpressive, however kudos to her to pursue this opportunity). After reading the opinion posted by you (@Doordarshan), I am reminded of the caste and color divide that is embedded in the Indian culture itself. What if this Big Brother was featured within a household full of Indian aunties (I think auntie, because I remember growing up, it was mainly the aunties who would compare my skin color with my siblings. I remember looking at them and sensing the hidden "oh.. it will be hard to look for a husband for you when you grow up" while we went shopping for clothes and finding colors that contrasted greatly with my skin color ) looking to marry off their sons and are being wooed by Indian girls who were fair, dark and came from many different castes and with different levels of educational and professional skills? I wonder who the typical auntie will pick for her son. I know that there are a lot of indians who do not care so much for color but for the education and behavior but typically what is the general outlook.

I'm not sure what others feel but in my mind calling shilpa shetty ' shilpa poppadum' as seen in todays CBB episode by Jade was abhorrent. What she can think of poppadum but not the simple syllabuled name 'shetty'?
Despite her protests when BB called her up on it and then the fake apology to shilpa I hope most people can see this is one at worst nasty at best , super stupid person.

I'm not sure what others feel but in my mind calling shilpa shetty ' shilpa poppadum' as seen in todays CBB episode by Jade was abhorrent. What she can think of poppadum but not the simple syllabuled name 'shetty'?
Despite her protests when BB called her up on it and then the fake apology to shilpa I hope most people can see this is one at worst nasty rasicist and for the sympathisers, at best , super stupid person.
Just cos she's mixed race doesn't mean she is automatically exempt from having racist tendencies.

Sakshi, Red: i cannot agree more with you guys. Ah, Sarika and Dharmayug :). Add to that Chandamama and Nandan for kids :). Sarika and Dharmayug are not even published these days, am not sure if Chandamama and Nandan are also published anymore.

Its the same for Punjabi literature also. I don't even know the names of new writers if any. Its like literature ahs frozen in time.....What evem more painful is that even if you want to buy old literature books in regional languages, there are hardly any book shops selling them. Go to Strands, Teksons, Gangarams-is there any corner for Hindi/Regional literature?

and yes, i too remember having taken to translations of Bengali, Marathi, Tamil and Kannada literature.....

It's a matter of basic pride which comes naturally to most people, but seems to escape a lot of Indians. Since you grew up with everyone including your grandparents speaking English to you, you don't know what if feels like to see the degradation of your mothertongue within your own lifetime (and I'm only 35 so we're not talking eons here). The two languages I know (Hindi and Punjabi) have both seen significant degradations in quality and vocabulary over the past generation.

But you're able to assess this despite the fact that you admit that you can't speak Hindi without thinking and your grammar isn't good? How would you know if the quality is worse? Languages have historically evolved, so maybe Hindi is just changing, not getting worse. I don't have to think before I speak in Hindi, and I have never thought it was "inappropriate" to speak it in any situation in a Hindi speaking area. Then again, I don't often stay at 5 star hotels.

After watching the clips on youtube, I am more for Jade, than for Shilpa. I don't know why I feel like this, may be because I have spent more than 10 years in a hostel, and I have worked with people from various nationalities on hands-on maintenance jobs. I mean if someone calls me an Indian, how can I deny that? I am an Indian. Why should I feel bad about it? Correct me if I am wrong, but why should that behavior be labeled racist? I have a feeling that if Shilpa spent her childhood in a hostel, she wouldn't behave like this. Anyone feels the same way?

When I read this in the BBC report, I agree.

Goody told fellow contestants Lloyd and Jo O'Meara that "fake" Shetty needed "a day in the slums". She added: "Go in your community and go to all those people who look up to you and be real."

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I just watched this on BBC, where Shilpa stated that she has not been bullied or had any racial slurs thrown at her.

Chandamama was the best!

As someone who is a student of both the Media and British Politics, I have been following this closely since the beginning. And things escalated far beyond simply being called "the Indian." Google videos, since they are longer have sections of the live feeds which don't make into the highlights--as does YouTube but cut into 10 minute sections.

Shilpa never heard anyone calling her the "Indian." Most of the allegedly racist remarks were said behind her back. So she is not behaving in anyway to possible racism. What she did respond toward was the blatant ganging up and bullying the three women displayed. And yes, she did later wonder if it was racism. But later took it back when Big Brother asked her to clarify, because in her view she has seen no proof of it, nor has any other Housemate on her side implied of the racial elements to it. But the viewers have seen many of the remarks and behavior. If not on the Highlights, on the live feeds, which give a much cleared and larger picture.

But you're able to assess this despite the fact that you admit that you can't speak Hindi without thinking and your grammar isn't good? How would you know if the quality is worse?

My comprehension is 100%, I can easily tell well-spoken Hindi from Hinglish, thank you very much. I speak fairly well too (especially considering I grew up in NJ), just get rusty living here...in India, I become pretty fluent after a few weeks. I KNOW the grammar (I've studied it) but yes in rapid speech I do make some mistakes. My accent always gets compliments. I think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing now, your points are making less and less sense.

Languages have historically evolved, so maybe Hindi is just changing, not getting worse.

Languages do evolve. However I think the current rate of extremely rapid "evolution" is indicative of other forces beyond just the natural course of linguistic change. It speaks of marginalisation, diglossia, snobbery, and lack of any of the usual safeguards that help to preserve a language. The early stages of language death. The status of Punjabi in Pakistan is an even better example...the language is sorely neglected, not taught in schools, not spoken by parents to children in educated families, and generally losing ground in urban areas. A recent survey done in Lahore showed that many words which were common just 20 years ago, are now known by only a small percentage of youth. That's not simply evolution, it speaks to systematic harm.

I don't have to think before I speak in Hindi, and I have never thought it was "inappropriate" to speak it in any situation in a Hindi speaking area.

Excellent. I wish more were like you. Good luck.

Anyway, I'm done with this language issue (for now), unless there's something I really feel I should respond to. I'll let you have the last word on this if you'd like.

When I mean google videos, I especially mean http://video.google.co.uk

If Punjabi language withers, and our folk songs are not understood, our community is pretty much lost of some of its vital well-spring. The ability to comprehend Punjabi is still one of the best ways to read our religious texts. Amitabh's comments become much less about "authenticity policing" from that point of view. People think Punjabis are all about puffing out their chest, but, um, we're a pretty small community who has faced some long odds. And we keep coming out fighting.

Keep blazing Amitabh

i just think it is awesome that folks in india are burning crap and tons of people have written into complain and now a corporation has pulled funding from the show.

let the mutiny begin!

(and by the way, i think abhi is sick of the shilpa shetty stuff, check out the SM news page)

david cameron says that if you are bothered by the alleged racism, you should turn off your television. because we all know that will solve the problem.

now THIS is interesting:
http://www.suryasays.com/2007/01/18/my-take-on-the-shilpa-shettybig-brother-controversy/

keshif, the link you posted is really interesting. surya is right -- any exposure of indecency always attracts negative attention. maybe shilpa should have prepared herself for something like this, but then again, the real question is what can we do in society to prevent this from happening again? create a more litigious society in britain? fight against alcoholism? make people who make public statements of a racial or sexual nature apologize publicly? launch a civil rights movement in britain?

abhi was sick of the story 3 days ago...and i'm totally on abhi's side..evertime i see her name i think of hell.

she was paid 1/2 a million to be on the show in a house with b/c list stars (and sorry to break it to some folks but she isn't an A list celebrity, no A list bollywood star would be caught dead in this thing)..i think she now even refutes racism charges here... and hell it's all for ratings anyways..

anti-reality tv movement.

(did anyone see 'my name is earl' with the online indian friend ;))?

anti-reality tv movement.

anti-reality tv movement.

anti-reality tv fillumi movement.

Gush Gush.. OMG! He was looking so HAWWTT!!.. OMG OMG.

... that tractor thread looks real neat though.

I am surprised how much importance desis give to bollywood and its stars. Well, Americans fawn over the ciphers that populate Hollywood too, but at least they occasionally make a good film.

Seriously uncreative derivative cinema, and an industry largely funded by Mohammedan blood money. And yet the woes of one of its b-listers becomes an international incident.

namitabh, yeah-- i thought it was really interesting. especially since the dude who wrote it surya is on reality tv. the apprentice. he lives in cincinnati where i'm from. given his connection to reality tv, i'm guessing his take will blow up.

i didn't know he was on the apprentice!

i don't know why south asian/asian activist groups in the US haven't issued any statements on this case, though. wasn't big brother originally based in the US? or the caucus for indian-americans or the washington political center.

i suppose i can understand inasmuch as an "american" has not been targeted, but given the growing influence of bollywood in north america, it is a big deal (to me, anyway).

GOD when will this story stop...its been running day and night here in india and im getting sick of it...somehow i think its all one big publicity stunt...as noticed by the steady increase in the ratings. Yeah she isnt a A list celebrity either...ive only seen one of her movies (Dus) lol.

To all who are sick of Shilpa Shetty story:

There is a "Chav" culture in Britain that is lets say a mix of trailer trash and hip-hop. They admire worthless celebrity females who care nothing about bullying, boozing, appearing naked, swearing and making fools of themselves in public. The are hated by many middle class people of all races. They have been articles about the decline of British society because of this chav culture. But anyone criticizing them are accused of looking down on the lower class. Now someone is taking them on.

This big brother has turned into a dirty slagging match between the Beautiful but classy Indian underdog and three vile Chavs. And "the Indian" is winning. She is winning by refusing to fall into their ways and maintaining her dignity in the face of horrible bullying. And her cheering section includes two Americans. Watch unedited shows to get the whole story.

I'm loving this. This is a win for conservatism and it doesn't matter that the one fighting on our side is an "actress".

What does 'chav' stand for, come from, abbreviate etc.?

The other one (Jade?) is just a very mean, low-class specimen who should be humbled that Shilpa even deigns to talk to her.

Although I'm quoting Amitabh here, I don't mean to target him specifically. The comment above is just one of many on the internet which refer to Jade's socioeconomic class.

Here's the thing - even with the greater role of desis in British society, there are still going to be certain classes who have no personal exposure to British people of different ethnicity or socioeconomic class, let alone to people of other countries (like Shilpa). So, one can expect Jade and her mother to assume that:

1. The behavior which they think is normal, is normal and basic for everyone. So if someone has a mannerism, or a facial expression, or a reaction, or an approach, which is unlike those of their subcommunity, they will attribute it to some sort of willful dishonesty - as Jade said to Shilpa, "You're hard to read." This is only going to be exacerbated by the artificial, competitive context of Big Brother.

So I think it all starts there. Now, if at that point a counselor could come in and speak to them about the hidden expectations they hold about how it is "normal" for people to behave, perhaps that would have helped. Of course the show is not structured that way, so the situation festers.

Add to it the other strong motives of wanting to win the competition and of jealousy of her higher socioeconomic background and its products (success, beauty, well-spokenness), and of certain ideas they may have about what their own behavior means and how it identifies them with the class they identify as being from (e.g., rudeness: "I'm straightforward [NOT LIKE THOSE SNOBBY RICH PEOPLE]"). You're going to get everything from miscommunication to bullying. (I saw a clip where Jade flew off the handle when she thought one of the other contestants had behaved in a way which eliminated a food shopping opportunity for the designated "servants." It was pretty clear she was identifying herself, psychologically, with the "downtrodden," against the "privileged.")

And of course, in the mix, is latent racism: expectation of entitlement to higher status than a darker person. Latent racism of some sort or other is within everybody, and it will find expression in situations of subjective or objective stress or threat or competition.

So, because Shilpa is of a different race and the latent racism is there, it emerges as the situation escalates - but the situation is initiated by inexperience, misunderstanding, and jealousy.

Shilpa, on the other hand, has the education to be able to detach herself from her emotional reactions and rationalize that she is not used to living with people from different ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds.

We (meaning the majority of people commenting over the Internet) rightly identify the resulting behavior and comments as racist, but then turn around and condemn the people from lower, insular socioeconomic classes for not having experience they cannot be expected to have. And there are many comments (not from SM'ers of course) which turn on the bullyers for being "fat and ugly and trashy."

So it's PC to be anti-racist but OK to be classist? Does this really serve the cause of fighting racism?

Note, I would not use this analysis if Jade (can't speak for Danielle and others) were from a solidly bourgeois family. There you would expect that there would be more experience in interacting with others of different ethnicities and classes, which are abundantly present in British society.

So it's PC to be anti-racist but OK to be classist? Does this really serve the cause of fighting racism?

That pretty much becomes the case in these sorts of arguments. The whole "Southern people are racist hicks" angle, the term "white trash" itself--maybe it's because it's easier to think that people hate you because they are ignorant and low class and don't know any better. But the reality is racism transcends class; it's just more subtle, and therefore sometimes more dangerous when it comes from the upper echelons of society.

Interestingly, the predominant discourse on SM has a distinct majoritarian aspect as well, and people who chafe at that become quite disenchanted. Step out of the bounds and you'll know it quite soon

The behavior which they think is normal, is normal and basic for everyone. So if someone has a mannerism, or a facial expression, or a reaction, or an approach, which is unlike those of their subcommunity, they will attribute it to some sort of willful dishonesty - as Jade said to Shilpa, "You're hard to read." This is only going to be exacerbated by the artificial, competitive context of Big Brother.

This is in itself, is problematic. One does not neccesarily need a familiarity with international travel to be able to understand that different people carry different mannerisms. I think the discussion on why those girls are saying what they are saying is being shunted into a classist discussion not by internet commentators, but by the originally classist discourse that exists in the UK

There was a lot going on than just calling her 'an Indian'. One girl calls her a dog (00:35). My comments here didn't portray the full story. I am sorry for the hasty judgment.

Addendum to my earlier post:

But does that comment reflect only the 'chav' culture? Here's (scroll down little) what Nobel Laureate Winston Churchill said in his elegant prose to the Palestine Royal Commission in 1937:

I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.

This is in itself, is problematic. One does not neccesarily need a familiarity with international travel to be able to understand that different people carry different mannerisms.

No, but one needs to have had actual experience mixing with people from different economic classes and ethnicities, or at least to have had someone introduce you to the concept that someone from a different place may have different behavioral expressions than you would assume given a situation. I live in a very small place where many people have not mixed with people other than from the small society here and the tendency is to be thrown off very easily by any small differences. They are not racist, but they feel uncomfortable/confused/disoriented.

I think the discussion on why those girls are saying what they are saying is being shunted into a classist discussion not by internet commentators, but by the originally classist discourse that exists in the UK

I don't think the above addresses anything I was saying, but anyhow it need not be "shunted" into a classist discourse or repackaged as one - the classist issues are as integral to what is happening as any racist issues.

There was a lot going on than just calling her 'an Indian'.

Doesn't really matter what the actual words are; the context and intent determine whether the utterance is racist.

Naiverealist, nice. :) As desishiksa said, racism by the powerful (the power structure) is the real issue.

As peculiar as the dynamic on the show is, the analyses of that dynamic are just as weird. Jade is going to be crucified as a racist for a long time to come, yet she's made the least amount of racist comment, if any. Danielle and Jo have been quietly sneering, poking fun at Shilpa's accent, her 'fingering the food', her cooking, calling her a dog etc., but no one is calling for their heads. Why not? Because they're not quite as 'low' as Jade? Because they don't shout and scream the way a 'chav' is supposed to, and Jade does? I find D and J to be far more sinister, the sort of sneering bystanders who do nothing to help a victim, and who egg on perpetrators.

No, but one needs to have had actual experience mixing with people from different economic classes and ethnicities, or at least to have had someone introduce you to the concept that someone from a different place may have different behavioral expressions than you would assume given a situation. I live in a very small place where many people have not mixed with people other than from the small society here and the tendency is to be thrown off very easily by any small differences. They are not racist, but they feel uncomfortable/confused/disoriented.

I disagree with you, I think they are not confused or disoriented, but are insecure and are being competitive, and willfully mean. That they have not been around other communities I think is less important. I don't think one needs to have mixed specifically with people of different communities neccesarily to have an appreciation for other ways of thinking.

I don't think the above addresses anything I was saying, but anyhow it need not be "shunted" into a classist discourse or repackaged as one - the classist issues are as integral to what is happening as any racist issues.

The driving factor that has set the parameters of the discussion; are these women mean because they are low-class, is not being set by individual commentators acting a priori, but by the already-set parameters of class discussion in the UK. They have been neatly plugged into the "common chavs acting like they commonly do" not by individual commentators, but by the nature of society in the UK

Jade is going to be crucified as a racist for a long time to come, yet she's made the least amount of racist comment, if any. Danielle and Jo have been quietly sneering, poking fun at Shilpa's accent, her 'fingering the food', her cooking, calling her a dog etc., but no one is calling for their heads. Why not? Because they're not quite as 'low' as Jade? Because they don't shout and scream the way a 'chav' is supposed to, and Jade does? I find D and J to be far more sinister, the sort of sneering bystanders who do nothing to help a victim, and who egg on perpetrators.

I totally agree.

I disagree with you, I think they are not confused or disoriented, but are insecure and are being competitive, and willfully mean.

Um, I'm talking about the people where I live, not Jade and co. You missed some context there.

That they have not been around other communities I think is less important. I don't think one needs to have mixed specifically with people of different communities neccesarily to have an appreciation for other ways of thinking.

You'd be surprised. Even educated people, who intellectually grasp that others have other ways of behaving even basically (e.g. the correct frequency for "thank you"), can have gut reactions of confusion when one of these basic differences occurs - especially if they come from and live in a small, insular society.

They have been neatly plugged into the "common chavs acting like they commonly do" not by individual commentators, but by the nature of society in the UK

But people from societies all over the world are using "low-class" markers as pejoratives against the bullies. Not just UK commenters. US for example is just as dismissive of certain lower socioeconomic classes.

Um, I'm talking about the people where I live, not Jade and co. You missed some context there.

Earlier you said that the bullies on the show were disoriented as well.

You'd be surprised. Even educated people, who intellectually grasp that others have other ways of behaving even basically (e.g. the correct frequency for "thank you"), can have gut reactions of confusion when one of these basic differences occurs - especially if they come from and live in a small, insular society.

An insular society meaning one in which diversity of thought is not valued? My contention is just that being able to appreciate different ways of thinking is not mediated by class-conditions. People who are working class and with little literacy or exposure to travel can be quite open-minded through other means

But people from societies all over the world are using "low-class" markers as pejoratives against the bullies. Not just UK commenters. US for example is just as dismissive of certain lower socioeconomic classes.

My take is that the form the discussion has taken, once it was noted that the behavior was wrong, was that Jo and others were doing these things because they were low class. And this answer to the problem is an answer being driven not by individual commentators, but by the already well-entrenched discourse in the UK. The same point "Disgusted" made

Earlier you said that the bullies on the show were disoriented as well.

True! And I believe that is the original root. But I have not discounted the role, as the situation develops, of competitiveness and insecurity, as I said in my original comment.

An insular society meaning one in which diversity of thought is not valued?

An insular society meaning one which is not often joined by outsiders (due to location, as in my case, or to class stigma, as could be in some other cases like Jade's)

My contention is just that being able to appreciate different ways of thinking is not mediated by class-conditions. People who are working class and with little literacy or exposure to travel can be quite open-minded through other means

What means?

And this answer to the problem is an answer being driven not by individual commentators, but by the already well-entrenched discourse in the UK. The same point "Disgusted" made

Yeah, and I said in response that people all over the world, who have never been to the UK, are responding in exactly the same way without being shaped by the well-entrenched discourse in the UK.

What means?

Meaning that, cultures which are not able to appreciate diversity of thought are not those cultures that are poor. Cultures that are poor can be cultures that appreciate diversity of thought independantly of level of literacy or levels of poverty.

That would be my basic contention, and would be curious as to whether you agree or disagree. I was assuming that your point was, that because Jo comes from a poor community, she may not be able to be pen-minded to other ways of thinking. And I disagree with that.

Yeah, and I said in response that people all over the world, who have never been to the UK, are responding in exactly the same way without being shaped by the well-entrenched discourse in the UK.

Two things, one that classism is entrenched a lot of places, and two, the reason I tried making that point was just that I think its an important distinction to make that the tone is probably set by a sector of society that is not low class, but is probably equally prejudiced as the "chav" class

We may not be disagreeing on too much

Deepa, you make valid points...but on a much more basic level, Jade and co. are just not nice people, simple. A lot of their behaviour could be cultural, and due to their socioeconomic class, their socialisation process as kids (anyone with Jackie as a mother is going to end up very messed up, Jade actually turned out better than one might expect) BUT I'm sure there are individual differences too in terms of how much basic human decency a person has. Doubtless there are people from Jade's background who would not be quite so abrasive and insulting in this situation. Anyway, it's apparent that Jade and her mom have lived a hardscrabble life, and they are certainly not equipped to deal with someone like Shilpa Shetty. It would be kind of comical if it didn't feel so bad to see Shilpa treated like that. By the way, when I called Jade low-class, I was referring more to her behaviour than her socioeconomic class per se, although I agree with you there is an overlap.

The desi immigrants who migrated to the UK in the 50s/60s/70s had to deal with people like Jackie and her ilk on a daily basis. In fact the racism (from what I'm told) was far more upfront and unhidden (and violent). Fortunately many of the desis themselves were hardscrabble people from rural backgrounds (although with a much more intact culture and stronger sense of identity, as well as much stronger family ties), and their UK-born kids managed to learn how to fight fire with fire and deal with these people head on.

by, in part reviving their folk traditions and adapting them to new uses

From today's Wall Street Journal -

Telefónica Urged to Sell Stake

January 19, 2007; Page C3

LONDON -- As many as a dozen private-equity firms and broadcasters are urging Telefónica SA to sell its controlling stake in Endemol NV, the creator of the "Big Brother" television programs, people close to the situation said.

The Spanish telecommunications group has said Endemol, based in the Netherlands, isn't a core business and will be sold. But so far it has balked at selling the 75% it still owns.

It sold a 25% stake through a stock-market listing in November 2005. The company is valued at about €2.4 billion ($3.1 billion), based on its stock price.

Endemol and Telefónica declined to comment.

Can someone post a link to a racist clip?

All I've seen so far on youtube was clips from news programs stating that there is protest via thousands of emails over "alleged" racism.

I've also seen a few clips from the show, but no racism.

As regards the Mom who called Shilpa "the Indian", isn't that was Shilpa is? An Indian? It would be like me getting upset over the same Mom calling me "the American" if I were on the show. Would I have something to be upset about or grateful for?

As far as the "bleach" clip - totally staged! Believe you me, no woman is going to parade around with bleach on her face asking cheerfully, "anyone for bleach?" in front of a group of people. When we do these types of things - we do it in private. We seek to cover our blemishes and imperfections and the fact that we have to do something about them, rather than celebrate it openly.

And she does not bleach her facial hair, if she did, it would be noticeable, even on TV. She might as well just have admitted that she bleaches her skin tone, rather than say she has "baby hairs". Besides, "baby hairs don't need to be bleached. If anything they will be even more noticeable after a bleach job.

Reality TV is totally fake.

hairy_d,

the difference between my absorption of the three languages i've been exposed to english, hindi, and swahili was the quality of reading i got. like heck i'm interested in harivanshrai bachan or maithilisharan gupt. i wanted boy's adventures - and my parents had the foresight to get me loads of classics - kidnapped, swiss family robinson, talisman, white fang, call of the wild, treasure island, robinson crusoe, ... - abridged and translated in hindi - and i read all this before the age of ten

What means?

Sorry, misunderstood the question. The means could be several. Even if they are in isolated areas, most people do have visitors from other regions from time to time. If you live in a region in which these interactions are valued, then you'd probably be more likely to value difference as a valuable and interesting thing even if such interactions don't happen often

As peculiar as the dynamic on the show is, the analyses of that dynamic are just as weird. Jade is going to be crucified as a racist for a long time to come, yet she's made the least amount of racist comment, if any. Danielle and Jo have been quietly sneering, poking fun at Shilpa's accent, her 'fingering the food', her cooking, calling her a dog etc., but no one is calling for their heads. Why not? Because they're not quite as 'low' as Jade? Because they don't shout and scream the way a 'chav' is supposed to, and Jade does? I find D and J to be far more sinister, the sort of sneering bystanders who do nothing to help a victim, and who egg on perpetrators.

I completely agree that the others need to be called out on their racism as well. It seems that everyone has forgotten that and started to focusing especially on Jade. But let's not forget Jade's great names for Shilpa.

Shilpa Poppodum and Shilpa Fuckawallah. And then her mind boggling insistance that there is nothing racial behind it.

Correction. started to *focus* not focusing.

Believe you me, no woman is going to parade around with bleach on her face asking cheerfully, "anyone for bleach?" in front of a group of people. When we do these types of things - we do it in private. We seek to cover our blemishes and imperfections and the fact that we have to do something about them, rather than celebrate it openly.

And she does not bleach her facial hair, if she did, it would be noticeable, even on TV. She might as well just have admitted that she bleaches her skin tone, rather than say she has "baby hairs". Besides, "baby hairs don't need to be bleached. If anything they will be even more noticeable after a bleach job.

Bleaching doesn't change your skin tone, as far as I know. I've never done it but many of my friends, both white and brown, have and it only bleaches your hair. It may make your skin lighter since the previously dark hairs are now light. And the reason it's not noticeable on TV is that she has makeup on to match her skin tone, and that makeup is on her now bleached hairs as well. Baby hairs do need to be bleached, or waxed, if you are trying to go for a hairless look and you happen to be dark haired. I don't have a single hair on my body that is not dark brown or black. That part of the show actually seemed quite real to me. My friends walked around the womens bathroom and our dorm room in college with bleach on their face, and Shilpa similarly did it only in front of the girls. The reason I've never bleached is that the thought of putting a corrosive chemical on my face freaks me out.

Jade just got voted off.

So someone called this poor little rich girl a brown and indian and asked her to go home.

Oh! the horror Oh! the horror... the sky must surely be falling on our heads. The world is coming to an end.

No amount of lobbying will fix the "go home paki" attitude. We need to fix our country, the poverty and it's dis respectable treatment of people of our lower castes and of course fix education.

Putting breaks on religion should also help. Enough building temples, build some damn schools and colleges.

When we've advanced to the fore front of development, we'll have respect.

Shouting ourselves horse over how our bimbos get hosed on TV will not solve racism for us.

Let the money grabbin w*h*o*r*e take it like one of us and quit complaining.

Don't jump into the shark pool if you can't swim.. frankly she's an embarrassment.

Yes, those names Jade called Shilpa are clearly racist. I missed those.

I find it frightening that nearly one in five people who called in did not vote to boot her off, rather than Shilpa.

Shouting ourselves horse over how our bimbos get hosed on TV will not solve racism for us.

After watching just 2 few minute clips from that show I couldn't bear more. Can't believe there are people who actually sit down for an hour and take an active interest in the nothingness these people are portraying on so-called "reality" TV.

So a bunch of has-been wannabes get together and talk, talk, talk about nothing. What's the point? Where's the educational or even entertainment value?

Let the money grabbin w*h*o*r*e take it like one of us and quit complaining.

Good point.

I'd be willing to be called names on TV too, for the amount she's getting paid!

Really, I don't think she's all that upset, with what she's taking away from the deal. Who would be?

Picking up where Deepa and desishiksa left off...
I hadn't seen the clips earlier and was clearly all for Shilpa Shetty and held the white women entirely responsible. But after watching the clips, I feel that there are genuine reasons behind their annoyance and that their racism lies solely in how they chose to attack her and any racism in that society lies solely in that they somehow feel that it's alright to act like that.

I see the 'lack of genuineness' that Jane Goody is complaining about. I sympathise at different points with both Jane and Shilpa (having looked at the clip- otherwise I could't give a shit about a show like this). I can see that Shilpa handles the conflict in a more adult-like manner than others, but her usual behavior before the conflict is less adult most ordinary women. It is not her fault. It just seems to be the kind of thing that's natural in her Indian setting.

This seems something that is common in the uppermost parts of Indian society, usually in the cities (rapidly changing now). The ideal for the Indian upper class woman is to be "innocent" and "good" - a sort of child-woman. This is not the case with the lower classes. In fact, it seems that the lowest classes have the most empowered women (relative to the men in the same family). Domestic abuse and beating, notwithstanding, these women are important members of the family and community because they work outside the home and help support the family. Note that LC women do almost all the jobs that men do (construction work), selling vegetables, whereas the distinction between male jobs and female jobs is stronger in UC families. In comparison, working outside the home is very new to the higher classes.

Anyways, it is natural for the working lower class women to find the decorative, non-working upper class women irritating and their goodness fake (will they really get their hands dirty to help the lower class women with anything? No. All they can do is offer to share bleach etc). But they cannot express their irritation because the UC men have such power over the LC men and women. So they shut up and tolerate it.

But when the "innocent" desi woman is out irritating the whites in a British show with her overly helpful ways (she was probably expecting to be Miss Congeniality).
1) they are not inhibited by anything in criticizing her and
2) Within their little cultural context they feel that *they* are more powerful (because they are white). So they feel entitled to bully her.

Out of laziness, they pick the easiest way- imitating her accent, making racist remarks about cleanliness, calling her Poppadum etc., to get to her.

Anyway, a lot is changing. Upper class women too (at least in the cities) are going out and working, and the tendency for weird ladylike manners is going down. The vulnerable, innocent girl, whom a guy can/must "protect" is on her way out as the object of desire and being replaced by the strong, independent woman. Good, good.

Gosh! I wish everyone (especially my Indian brethren >. The same goes for the comments about 'God knows where those hands have been', that's just Danielle voicing her dislike of someone meddling with her food! I know I hate for someone I'm barely acquainted with meddling with my food too, does that make me racsist if I comment on it? How in Gods name has this whole episode spiralled up to burning effigys of show directors and Members of Parliament having to intervene is beyond me. That more than anything speaks volumes of the insanity and comical stupidity of both the Indian media for painting these issues to the general public and also to the ignorant masses agreeing with them.
Rascism is a serious issue and this whole episode is making a mockery of people who are making an effort to do something about it as well as efforts that have been made in the past. Any good that has been achieved in the past towards changing people's attitudes to rascism is going to be undone by this sillyness, I don't really know how else to describe it other than then senseless sillyness! And this in a country where endless jokes and what could be construed as rascist remarks are made about Sikhs, Marwadis, South Indians, Chinese people, Black people and the list goes on and on... to the point where teenagers in urban Indian schools use the word 'Nigga' prolifically without knowing the meaning of the word or the hurt and pain that has been caused to a race of people in anotehr country by the use of that word.
How proud it would make me to feel Indian if the reaction to these going ons would have been 'You (the media) are not going to make me as an Indian, be concerned about race or rascism over the adventures of a silly Bollywood actress on the Tele where all that's really going on is that an Airhead is getting a dose of reality'.

Gosh! I wish everyone especially my Indian brethren, commenting on the alleged racsist behaviour or bullying that is going on in the Big Brother household would wake up and realise that this is just a case of SHILPA SHETTY being an EXTREMELY DIFFICULT and ANNOYING PERSON TO LIVE WITH! She's bossy, antsy, meddling, and obviously extremely pampered both at home and by people outside her home who she interacts with and cannot handle being treated as a normal person... or won't let people treat her as normal... all I can say is that apart from the herds of sex craved fans in India that she has, I cannot imagine wanting to live with a person like that. I do agree that Jade and her Mum are very crass and Jade can be appalling at times but that is who they are and they have a right to be who they are... don't they? Wouldn't it be justice enough to just let them show the world how ignorant and crass they are instead of raising a racsist issue here where none exists.
The same goes for the comments about 'God knows where those hands have been', that's just Danielle voicing her dislike of someone meddling with her food! I know I hate for someone I'm barely acquainted with meddling with my food too, does that make me racsist if I comment on it? How in Gods name has this whole episode spiralled up to burning effigys of show directors and Members of Parliament having to intervene is beyond me. That more than anything speaks volumes of the insanity and comical stupidity of both the Indian media for painting these issues to the general public and also to the ignorant masses agreeing with them.
Rascism is a serious issue and this whole episode is making a mockery of people who are making an effort to do something about it as well as efforts that have been made in the past. Any good that has been achieved in the past towards changing people's attitudes to rascism is going to be undone by this sillyness, I don't really know how else to describe it other than then senseless sillyness! And this in a country where endless jokes and what could be construed as rascist remarks are made about Sikhs, Marwadis, South Indians, Chinese people, Black people and the list goes on and on... to the point where teenagers in urban Indian schools use the word 'Nigga' prolifically without knowing the meaning of the word or the hurt and pain that has been caused to a race of people in anotehr country by the use of that word.
How proud it would make me to feel Indian if the reaction to these going ons would have been 'You (the media) are not going to make me as an Indian, be concerned about race or rascism over the adventures of a silly Bollywood actress on the Tele where all that's really going on is that an Airhead is getting a dose of reality'.

Meaning that, cultures which are not able to appreciate diversity of thought are not those cultures that are poor. Cultures that are poor can be cultures that appreciate diversity of thought independantly of level of literacy or levels of poverty.

That would be my basic contention, and would be curious as to whether you agree or disagree. I was assuming that your point was, that because Jo comes from a poor community, she may not be able to be pen-minded to other ways of thinking. And I disagree with that.

Hi Sahej, sorry, I meant, by what means other than direct experience with people from other economic and/or ethnic backgrounds, or than education (though here I think education without direct experience can have limited impact) can people come to understand that even their most taken-for-granted behaviors can be sincerely different in people from other backgrounds?

This direct experience need not involve travel - one could have experience with people from other backgrounds within one's own neighborhood, or school, or work.

I don't think that just because Jade comes from a poor community she does not have this experience Specifically, it's because she comes from a community (of people, not location necessarily) which does not mix with other communities. (Which can happen if a community has an undesirable socioeconomic status, because others don't want to move in)

I do agree with your statement above, in general, but don't see how it precludes the statement I just made.

I do agree that we may not be disagreeing on much here. :) We both agree that:
1. racist behavior has become involved
2. Jade comes from, as you put it, a culture which is not able to appreciate diversity of thought (although I would say that any homogenous culture which has no direct experience mixing with people from other cultures - which need not involve travel somewhere else - will produce a lot of people who are not able to appreciate diversity of thought. As you say, this phenomenon is irrespective of levels of literacy or poverty).

Even if they are in isolated areas, most people do have visitors from other regions from time to time. If you live in a region in which these interactions are valued, then you'd probably be more likely to value difference as a valuable and interesting thing even if such interactions don't happen often

Yeah, Sahej, I was postulating the existence of communities which do not really have any significant visitors - they need not even be geographically isolated. It's possible that the factor of a culture which "values" interactions with outsiders, although unused to outsiders, could exist, I suppose. I'm not sure - now comes into play the issue of how many outsiders at once, and their perceived impact on economic well-being, "our way of life," etc. One outsider might be charming, a few and then you're threatened, worrying about your job security, your gene pool, etc....

Anyway, a lot is changing. Upper class women too (at least in the cities) are going out and working, and the tendency for weird ladylike manners is going down.

That was funny.

Even though I totally hate most all Bollywood movies and music , Shilpa Shetty deserves better. Shilpa is the epitomy of grace under pressure. Jermaine Jackson is just a beautiful man (as are Dirk and Ian). Shetty has taken the high road in response to the catty behavior of the 3 douchebags that torment her. Jade, Jo O'Meara, and the other whatever that other skanky ho is are 3 first class dumba$$es. Glad to see that biggest a$$wipe of all Jade Goody got kicked out. I think the Nine Inch Nails song "Star&*ckers" was written for idiots like the 3 white witches who are has beens.
Jo has zero talent, looks ancient since she is a chain smoker and must be a transvestite. There is no denying that fact. Her old group "S Club" (or SH!t Club) blatantly ripped off tunes from the Spice Girls (who really weren't artistically inclined to begin with).

Shilpa's tolerance and grace is way bigger than Jo O'Meara's dick, too.

Raoul >>

That more than anything speaks volumes of the insanity and comical stupidity of both the Indian media for painting these issues to the general public and also to the ignorant masses agreeing with them.

Those 3 women insulting Shilpa are lucky they didn't have Li'l Kim as a roommate. Kim would've snatched them bald-headed. As soon as Kim would've heard the c-word, Jade would've been Sinead [O'Connor] in 10 minutes.

Come off it Kurma and Raoul. Those three brainless twits hated Shilpa because she's gorgeous, rich, cosmopolitan, successful AND popular with the men in the house. Classic female envy at work.

OK, they hate her because she's gorgeous, rich, cosmopolitan, successful AND popular with the men in the house. I never thought of that!

teenagers in urban Indian schools use the word 'Nigga' prolifically without knowing the meaning of the word or the hurt and pain that has been caused to a race of people in anotehr country by the use of that word.

Including their own race by the way. Indians too are regularly subjected to the N racial insult in white countries. Either in its pure form or hyphenated as in "sand-nigger" or "dot-nigger".

Some positive results of this brouhaha could be that:

Indians may become less servile towards westerners and less prone to treating white visitors in India as superior beings just because of their skin color.

More indians may seriously examine their own asinine colorism and casteism and realise how cruel and self-defeating it is.

More desis abroad may overcome the shame and be encouraged to testify to the racial prejudices and insults they are subjected to, now that even a bollywood star has openly been subjected to the same.

More brits recognize the sheer ugliness of their ingrained contempt for foreigners.

Indians may become less servile towards westerners and less prone to treating white visitors in India as superior beings just because of their skin color.

Indians in India are generally hospitable towards any guest of any color. I've not seen whites getting any more of special treatment then any other guest.

Some positive results of this brouhaha could be that:

Indians may become less servile towards westerners and less prone to treating white visitors in India as superior beings just because of their skin color.

More indians may seriously examine their own asinine colorism and casteism and realise how cruel and self-defeating it is.

It is so sad - in a poor imitation of Big Brother called Big Boss, actor Dipak Tijori made certain comments against Ravi Kissen. This happened on December 11 at the 11:00 pm show on sony TV. He said "Aise Bombil faced Bihariyon ko modelling line mein kaun khada karega?" If I am not mistaken, bombil is the name given to the kolis (fisherfolk) of Mumbai. As is obvious, he was denigrating Biharis. Quite apart from the inaccuracy of the statement that Ravi Kissen is a Bihari - his connection with Bihar is that he is a bhojpuri actor - the comment was racist.

No middle class or any class Indian thought of protesting. No government action, unlike the Big Brother episode where senior GOI functionaries thought it fit to comment on and engage the British Government. Till date, there has been no apology, either from Dipak Tijori or from the TV channel.

Are we Indians inherently racists? Do we have the moral authority to criticise the British?

I am rather surprised at the amount of attention this issue has been given. One would almost think that there was nothing more important to discuss than the goings-on in a sleazy television show which itself was losing viewers. That the issue was blown-up by the British media is not surprising: their bankruptcy is known. Furthermore, wikipedia has got it wrong in my opinion. They have been known for their errors in the past: 350 million is absurd. Unless one counts even one or two words as being capable of speaking English well, not more than 80-100 million in our country can speak English with any degree of fluency. When was the last time you had a conversation with your maid or rickshaw driver in English? In Chennai, the only language the rickshaw drivers understand is Tamil. In any case, our insistence on English has harmed us immensely. We are the only country in the world which teaches its own languages as a second language. First most of the poor go to regional language schools (if they go to school) and graduate to find that not speaking English well disqualfies them for so many things. India's future lies in a combination of both English and regional languages. Lastly, as Indian industry goes into small towns and villages, we shall we have to further the use of local languages.