I got a few emails on this case. I think initially it was on the sepiamutiny.com's news section that I'd heard about it. Very unfortuante. I hope someone who was there would step up so more facts show up before Feb 20th.

So how's his health, Cicatrix? Seems like it's going to be a quick recovery?

Of the roughly 10-12 people involved, 5 were arrested and released the next day due to no prior convictions, being upstanding members of society

translation: they're rich and white.

Of the roughly 10-12 people involved, 5 were arrested and released the next day due to no prior convictions, being upstanding members of society

Why does this remind me of the Amerigo Bonasera courtroom scene from the Godfather.

Ugh...what does "upstanding members of society" mean, anyway?

Alcohol.... tsk tsk tsk.

When all else fails, hurl racial/ethnic slurs. That always works.

I have a lot of faith in Morgenthau's office and believe that justice will be served. There are several South Asian ADAs under him as well who very strongly vouch for him and his team. I will be there Feb 20th. In the meantime I do hope more witnesses' come forward from that night and more information becomes available. But I have to say the desi party scene has gone down the drain over the past few years and violent drunken fights have unfortunately become all too common. Unfortunately I've witnessed some of these horrible incidents and was dragged into one of them once as well. Hoards of drunken young men are no different irrespective of race. I've seen desis hurl classist and regional shit at eachother in the middle of a fight. Stupidity!

Not that anyone deserved to get beat up. This is a horrible incident. I'm always fearful of the importance and stress on calling race because at the end of the day being assualted anywhere by anyone is horrible period. I'd be interested in hearing from someone in the legal know if a racial attack carries more weight than just a hate filled attack.

how unfortunate. i hope the curry leaf panna cotta chef was left unscathed. it's delicious.

I would be least surprised if it deemed a hate crime. Unfortunately, the world is still full of racist and anti semitic douchebags and it is not out of the realm of possiblity that this incident/attack was really a racial attack.

"Ugh...what does 'upstanding members of society' mean anyway?" --Vi

To borrow HMF's quote, it means that they're wayyyyy too rich, too connected and too white to be given jail sentences.

I know I should be outraged but this one line killed me - "they threw his body over the bar."

I'm sorry the visual was too funny. "Can't we discuss this in a civil manner......aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh."

It reminds me of a scene from an old cowboy movie. At least they didn't slide him down the bar and knock over everyone's drinks until the last guy at the bar picks up his as he falls off the end.

suffer this sort of violent crime by patrons at their own establishment.

In their own "homes" as it were. Disgusting!

[Cica - you back? :)]

hopefully folks will show up tonight.

one of the more interesting aspects of this story is, to me, in how many of us received the emails about the incident from friends. it's somewhat comforting to know just how closely connected we are.

translation: they're rich and white.

I may stop by to show my support, and hopefully get more info about the case, and also see who else shows up and what the mood of the community seems to be. I've read some disturbing things regarding the race/racial motivations of the attackers. I dread racial tensions heating up in NYC over the actions of some alcohol- and testosterone-crazed a**holes.

just my two cents: i was present at the lounge at the time of the incident, simply to support the friend that threw the party. . as a result, i was much older than the crowd there and was not drinking that night. . . while the incident is a sad one and obviously unnecessary, the fight initially erupted due to the profanities ashwani was yelling at the "rich white kids" who were there because their friend was also a co-host of the party. . . i only know this as i was standing right next to them when the fight broke out. . he (very rudely) screamed at them to leave and the drunk reaction to such statement was not good either. ashwani was pushed and then PUSHED BACK at which point he was picked up and thrown onto the floor. at no time was "he thrown onto a stone bar" either. hopefully the 3 men who repeatedly hit and kicked ashwani will be dealt with appropriately while the 2 innocent boys arrested will remain untainted.

Shlok Ashwani is recovering. I believe he is waiting for the results of an MRI. He is up and about, but clearly not at 100%. I didn't get a chance to talk to his injured friend, but I think his nose is still taped up.

A detail I forgot to add to the post - the attackers were released without bail. Also, Siddhartha and Amardeep were very involved with this post. Thanks guys!

badmash I'm back. I can never stay away ;)

Nina P I know your presence there would be greatly appreciated. Ashwani and his friends are would like to rally other organizations/communities in additions to those with South Asian affiliations.

desildki You're bringing an invaluable perspective to this case. If you are concerned about two innocent boys being tainted, then please come forward as a witness:

Please contact: 212-335-9000. Let them know you are calling about People of the State of New York v. Anthony Diblasio et al. Docket #2006NY087241-244, Docket #2006NY087219

Yes she should come forward as a witness. However, could you please explain why is her perspective invaluable?

Actually I'd encourage Desildki to tell us more about this incident right on this post. Please don't intimidate her.

jilted_manhood, here you go - invaluable

I am not sure if you got my point. I'll have a long comment on this incident soon.

cicatrix - thank you for your opinion and 1) i have already been contacted to testify as a witness and 2) my comment is not invaluable for the following reason. . i have received the same press release on at least five different listservs over the last week. . . and each has catalyzed an intense discussion about hate crimes against south asians. . . this incident was a result of intoxicated college kids reacting inappropriately. . the fact obviously remains that the attackers were caucasian while the victims were of south asian descent. this does not constitute a hate crime. the "rich white" kids did not begin the brawl because ashwani was indian but rather because they didnt agree with the way they were being spoken to. im not, in any way, defending their response to ashwani however, by labelling every incident between two different races a "hate crime" does not help any situation.

this incident was a result of intoxicated college kids reacting inappropriately. . the fact obviously remains that the attackers were caucasian while the victims were of south asian descent. this does not constitute a hate crime. the "rich white" kids did not begin the brawl because ashwani was indian but rather because they didnt agree with the way they were being spoken to.

if racial slurs were being thrown around in the course of the attack, as it seems may have been the case, then how is that not a hate crime? just because they started the brawl in part for other reasons doesn't mean that a race-based motive isn't present as well. lots of things in life happen on account of situations involving mixed motives -- in employment discrimination it happens all the time, and it also happens all the time in situations involving race-based violence.

hate crime:

Crime of aggravated assault, arson, burglary, criminal homicide, motor vehicle theft, robbery, sex offenses, and/or crime involving bodily injury in which the victim was intentionally selected because of the victims' actual or perceived race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or disability.

and/or

An offense committed against another person, with the specific intent to cause harm to that person due to their race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, or culture, etc.

if racial slurs were being thrown around in the course of the attack, as it seems may have been the case, then how is that not a hate crime? just because they started the brawl in part for other reasons doesn't mean that a race-based motive isn't present as well.

True: there can always be the factor of "how dare HE (dark guy) speak to US (white privilege) like that?" which could have made them more outraged than they would have been had the owner yelling at them been white.

crime involving bodily injury in which the victim was intentionally selected because of the victims' actual or perceived race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or disability.

Again, it's possible that the action taken against the owner was selected because he was a nonwhite yelling at them. The question of their drunkenness can affect the "intentionally selected" bit but I don't know that it should be considered to do so, otherwise everyone drunk could get a free pass anytime they do something violent or otherwise criminal.

desildki20, even accepting your definitions (from where they come is not clear), you still are not accounting for the possibility of mixed motives, multiple intentions. most human behavior involves multiple motives, and this is no less true with hate crimes or other forms of discrimination. if multiple motivations are present, the definitions you present can still be satisfied. in addition to deepa's point, the social meaning of the attack for the rest of us is different if there is evidence or a hate-based motivation (such as racial slurs etc), even if some other motivation is also present.

[Courtesy note: Keep it on topic please. Comments that use this as a flimsy springboard for inflammatory ranting are not helpful. This refers to a comment that was recently deleted. Thanks.]

I did go to Leela Lounge last night. I arrived at about 9:40, asked where the benefit was, and got "huh?" Finally someone behind the bar informed me it started at 10. There was a nice friendly party of theater people in front who invited me to join them, but I started sneezing so I went home (I'm not much of a partier). So, I didn't learn much. Did anyone else go?

I was there that night and already posted on BrooklynMasala page.

The email from one Ms Goel ( some legal ace? ) is what set off the frenzied coverage of this violent incident in the blogosphere. I am excerpting the email and highlighting supposed facts that have since been refuted by witnesses:

" This past Christmas Eve, a very good friend and an upstanding individual, Ashwani Nagpal, was ruthlessly beaten by 10 to 11 rich, connection happy, Caucasian kids (all between 23-24) to the point of near death at his restaurant (Leela Lounge)."

" Ashwani asked one of the kids, who damaged and vandalized the restaurant, to please take care and to act respectfully while he remained there. This set the kid off and he, along with this friends, went into a flying (racially charged) rage. They punched and kicked him repeatedly, all the while yelling racial epithets. "

" Once Ashwani became unconscious, they picked up his body and slammed
him against the stone bar. "

" should not be able to get away with this grave of a hate crime."

Ms Goel was not present at the scene of assault. Two credible witnesses however have come forward to relate what happened ( or what did not happen ) that night. Credible, because one ( Jeet ) is a regular commenter here and the other ( Desildki, who has commented above ) has signed up as a witness with the DA. Excerpts from Jeet's comments at Brooklyn Masala's blog:

Jeet

" It was not a racial attack. I was there and desi kids were involved too!!!!!! The owner (I've met him before this night, he is cousin-of-a-friend) is a really nice guy and so is his partner, really well accomodating. I think the problem started cuz they didnt have enough bartenders that night and bar area is really small. The party was going fine and like every other desi party finale, there has to be a fight. If not how would you get desis to go home?? "

" There was no security, no bouncers, no 'real' bartenders. Underage drinking was everywhere as sixteen-year-olds were passed out and puking. It was not well organized at all. Do you want me to keep going? "

" But this was not a racial attack, it was more of a fight-ending-the-party kind of a thing."

Desildki

" while the incident is a sad one and obviously unnecessary, the fight initially erupted due to the profanities ashwani was yelling at the "rich white kids" who were there because their friend was also a co-host of the party. . . i only know this as i was standing right next to them when the fight broke out. . he (very rudely) screamed at them to leave "

" at no time was "he thrown onto a stone bar" either. hopefully the 3 men who repeatedly hit and kicked ashwani "

" i have received the same press release on at least five different listservs over the last week. . . and each has catalyzed an intense discussion about hate crimes against south asians. . . this incident was a result of intoxicated college kids reacting inappropriately. . the fact obviously remains that the attackers were caucasian while the victims were of south asian descent. this does not constitute a hate crime. the "rich white" kids did not begin the brawl because ashwani was indian but rather because they didnt agree with the way they were being spoken to "

Ms Goel painted this incident as a hate crime from the get go without bothering to wait for witnesses/facts. When other minorities commit hate crimes upon South Asians and one asks for the race of the attacker(s), the rhetorical answer belittling the questioner usually is - " How does that matter ?". Not in cases of a 'White vs minority' nature! Now look at what Brooklynbrown posted on the news tab-

" BrooklynBrown posted on January 18, 2007, 12:52 am EDT
I've received emails about the attack on Ashwani Nagpal by 10-11 white kids but have so far found nothing in the papers. There's a fundraiser for the owner on Saturday. Details and story at the link."

So he admits he hasn't confirmed this but he didn't choose to leave out the incendiary detail about the number and race of the attackers!

Now look at the comments left above on this post. Even after a witness to this incident has related the details of what clearly looks was not a hate crime, HMF, Deepa and Pied Piper are desperately looking for the hate angle. You guys sure got beef with the White Man? What is it really? I'd like to know because in all my years in America I haven't experienced any White racism neither have several other minorities that I know. On the contrary we have been victims of both racial abuse and violent assault from other minorities or from our own. That doesn't mean your reality should be the same as mine. But seriously I'd like to know what specific racial abuse/discrimination have you guys suffered from White people? Or is it because you have been reading too many books or watching documentaries that catalogue the atrocities committed in the past by White people on indigenous people? It's good to know what happened in the past to make sure it doesn't get repeated but I really believe some of you unwittingly refuse to live in the present. I am not denying there isn't any White racism. I am just saying it's blown way out of proportion. And if I say I am thankful to Americans ( mostly Whites - reflecting the demographics ) for making an immigrant like me feel at home by being sensitive and helpful, then I must be acting like a " suservient, model minority! "

In this case the damage has been done. "Yet another case of White racism", many will go around saying. By the time it's found out this was no hate crime everybody will have moved on. You won't receive any emails from Ms Goel screaming " Sorry, it wasn't a hate crime ". Just like you won't hear much about the self inflicted hair removal of the three Sikh youths. But you sure as hell did assume racism ( of course the White kind ) when you first heard about it.

The very same people who hold aloft aberrations ( politically incorrect jokes, racist comments on websites ) as some kind of a trophy-proof of the pervasive racism ( read White racism ) in the West, somehow don't shy away from laying the blame on South Asian victims for the hatred/pogroms they suffer in Africa or the Middle East.

Why is it that the only kind of hate I see that goes around both undetected and uncensored, is the one for White people?

jilted.....thank you

Oh and you won't read any retractions in the Gothamist and the Indian media either. Congratulations Ms Goel, Brooklynbrown, Pied Piper, Deepa and others for disguising yet another regular crime as a ' White on minority ' hate crime and inserting in into the collective human psyche thus perpetuating the victim mentality of many as evidenced by the hateful comments left on both Brooklynbrown's and SAJA's blogs.

Please read the damn post before you stand on a soapbox and preach with a bullhorn:

As for the racially charged nature of this case and the ethnic slurs…This has not been fully ascertained, so again, if you were there and heard something, please step up. Mr. Nagpal is very reluctant to focus on this aspect since he would hate to think that this incident taints Leela Lounge in anyway.

Cicatrix,

Practice what you preach, will ya? Please read my damn comment. I am not disputing your post or responding to what you may or may not have suggested. I am commenting on the general direction this incident has taken in the blogosphere. If the racial nature of this incident hasn't been ascertained yet then how come Ms Goel declared it so and broadcast it all over the place?

Jilted -

Deepa and Pied Piper are desperately looking for the hate angle. You guys sure got beef with the White Man? What is it really? I'd like to know because in all my years in America I haven't experienced any White racism neither have several other minorities that I know. On the contrary we have been victims of both racial abuse and violent assault from other minorities or from our own.

Jilted, I don't know first hand what happened at Leela Lounge because I wasn't there, and at no point have I claimed otherwise. But I will again state, in more general terms, that most human behavior involves mixed motivations. Just because other motivations are at work doesn't mean that hate isn't also a motivation. Obviously, that's just as true if the perpetrators are non-white as it is if they are white, and I have never suggested otherwise. Of coure there are examples of hate crimes involving non-white perpetrators involving mixed motives. And for that reason -- even if everything they say is 100 percent true, and there were no other witnesses -- nothing that Jeet or Desildki has said is inconsistent with the notion that hate may also have been a motivation here, as other witnesses seem to have concluded.

And of course, there are lots of other witnesses to this one. Exactly how do you know that Ms. Goel hasn't spoken to them? Just because two witnesses to an incident in an online forum have one interpretation of what happened doesn't make their interpretation is somehow the gospel -- even if they are completely credible. Credibility is not the issue here. I have not and am not questioning anyone's credibility -- but there are lots of other witnesses to this incident, including the victim, and obviously others may have a different perceptions and interpretations. Including witnesses upon whom the DA's office will probably rely. That's just the nature of reality. Why do you think prosecutors bother to call multiple witnesses to the same event at all? Obviously, because human perception is never perfect, and the real truth will come from putting together many different perspectives.

The email from one Ms Goel ( some legal ace? )...

* * *

You won't receive any emails from Ms Goel screaming " Sorry, it wasn't a hate crime "....

Jilted -- I say this advisedly, and it's sad that I end up thinking this almost every time you write a comment -- you really should go take a Valium. The only one "screaming" around here and calling people names is is you.

p.s. -- You and your friends haven't experienced racism? That's great, I'm glad you haven't -- honestly and sincerely. I hope that you never do. But exactly how does that make you entitled to dismiss other people's experiences with such contempt, and in general to just rant and rave as if everyone is stupid but people who agree with you?

Pied Piper,

You may accuse me of reaching a conclusion on this incident without waiting for the DA's report e.t.c. However my inclination to believe that this was not a racist attack is based on the accounts proffered by two very credible witnesses who have come forward. Jeet even knows the owner. The problem I have is how come people who were not there have rushed to stray from " innocent until proven guilty '. From Ms Goel's email it's quite clear that until that point the only person she seemed to have spoken with was the victim himself. I'd lay more credibility at the testimony of neutral witnesses than either party direclty involved in the confontation.

Now you haven't answered any of my questions. Of course! One glance at your comments on this blog and what I takeaway is you have a problem with White people. I seriously am curious - have you personally or probably someone you know has, ever suffered any White racism? Please give me an example. I'll believe you. I am not being sarcastic here.

What is valium and where can I get it? I assume it's some sort of drug. Why do you advise it to me? Again I am not being frivolous. I'll seriously consider it if you show me that it'll help me fight some flaw that I might have.

Jilted_manhood you are way out of line in attacking people that chose to lend credibility to the victim. What you have is perception just as anyone else speculating here based on what has been recanted so far by different parties. No one party is exactly accurate till the actual details come out from the investigation that is hopefully ensuing from this incident. Were you there? No? Well then you are being utterly ridiculous.

What is more ridiculous is for you to imply that people have not experienced racism. Where do you get off telling someone what their experiences have been? And what is this bullshit about hating white people? Is that really your line of argument? How about you and all parties involved who weren't physically there actually shut up with the accusations and let the truth reveal itself over time from parties that were there.

JoAT,

That comment of yours is very unintelligent. Though I assume it was written in haste to ingratiate yourself with many here ( including myself ) who have been put off by your earlier comments about lascivious Blacks and Hispanics. I am not sure how you gleaned all that from my comments.

" Where do you get off telling someone what their experiences have been? "

This is what I said;

" That doesn't mean your reality should be the same as mine."

However my inclination to believe that this was not a racist attack is based on the accounts proffered by two very credible witnesses who have come forward. Jeet even knows the owner. The problem I have is how come people who were not there have rushed to stray from " innocent until proven guilty '. From Ms Goel's email it's quite clear that until that point the only person she seemed to have spoken with was the victim himself.

Um, the victim and the owner are the same person. It says so in the second sentence of the post. Now, jilted, how about not insulting people here gratuitously when you yourself have no leg to stand on. [And don't interpret this as me taking any position on what may or may not have happened at Leela Lounge, let alone how whatever may or may not have happened should be classified in legal or casual terms. I have no view on any of that. Thank you.]

That comment of yours is very unintelligent.

Well my friend then that makes two of us. Last time I checked...

I'd like to know because in all my years in America I haven't experienced any White racism neither have several other minorities that I know…. Or is it because you have been reading too many books or watching documentaries that catalogue the atrocities committed in the past by White people on indigenous people?... I am just saying it's blown way out of proportion.

Is dismissing people and their experiences!

And I promise you in case you are under some dillusion...I am in no way shape or form trying to make good with you mostly because I don't really think much of you. Attacking Pied Piper who not only wasn't emotional but rather logical was utterly pathetic IMO. Will you promise to shut the hell up now if you've sufficiently put everyone down or are you still not done crapping?

Of course they are the same person! I know it. No confusion about it. What makes Jeet's account more credible is the fact that he is known to the victim/owner. After all his account is quite contrary to the one being put forward by those who supposedly have spoken with the victim/owner. It's a brave act given the closed knit desi community one moves about in.

Siddhartha, could you please ask others to not insult me as well?

Thank You

It was a fight and thats IT! I hope the wrongdoers, desi and white, both get their punishments. LL should be better prepared next time for an event like this with proper bartenders and bouncers in tow.

jilted, you're totally overreacting. compare this post to the shipla post, which was a credible account of racist behavior. there are many people weighing in on that one, whereas this one, just going by the number of comments--it's apparent that most people who frequent this site are waiting for more information before giving their opinion. i don't think anybody is "desperately looking for the hate angle".

and there is a difference between white racism and the others. from the article cicatrix blogged about in her shilpa post:

We are not alone in our racism, of course. Every race exhibits racism towards those whom they believe to be inferior: India is no exception, nor is China, nor is Africa. What makes Britain - and whites - special in this regard is that we have been top of the global pile for so long, inflicted our brand of racism on so many, and have no idea what it is like to be discriminated against for our colour.

What makes Jeet's account more credible is the fact that he is known to the victim/owner. After all his account is quite contrary to the one being put forward by those who supposedly have spoken with the victim/owner.

Let me get this straight. The account of a person who knows the victim is more credible than the account of another person who knows the victim, because the first person knows the victim? You are making zero sense.

i don't think anybody is "desperately looking for the hate angle".

Anybody but jilted, that is.

jilted,

The problem here is of perception.

You perceive some sort of "beef with the white man" in just about everything - the writer of the original email (Ms. Goel), the posts on Gothamist/SAJA, comments on the desi blogosphere, etc. - when the truth is that (with the exception of commenters no one can control) desi organizations, the owner/victim, blog posts (including this one) have been exceedingly careful about how they characterized this crime.

Ms. Goel's original email was an emotional one distributed to friends. It was not meant to be an official statement, and as I wrote in the post, I thought it was a hoax.

You even perceive other commenters here as being insulting to you, when in fact your comments are the more inflammatory, baseless and pointlessly argumentative.

If you don't know what a valium is, look it up. If you haven't experienced racism, go read up at least 300 years worth of other peoples' experiences at your nearest library. What you don't know isn't our problem.

y

ou still are not accounting for the possibility of mixed motives, multiple intentions. most human behavior involves multiple motives, and this is no less true with hate crimes or other forms of discrimination. if multiple motivations are present, the definitions you present can still be satisfied

def not looking for a hate angle...def

also, some advice for those in the least bit tempted by jilted_manhood's desire to know your story of interactions with whites:

I seriously am curious - have you personally or probably someone you know has, ever suffered any White racism? Please give me an example. I'll believe you. I am not being sarcastic here.

should you be naive enough to share your story (as i was), you should also be prepared for jilted_manhood to claim that you're lying, which he may later change to saying that your claim of racism is being too sensitive.

i wouldn't recommend it, but if you do share your story with him, just remember that he is, as i said then, only a bunch of pixels on your screen.

I am quite sure I have made sense to many, particularly with my comment # 29. But if that's the way you wish to respond to my request for censuring others on insulting me ( please read JoAT's latest comment ), that's fine. It's your blog my friend and I still believe you are not biased!

If you don't know what a valium is, look it up. If you haven't experienced racism, go read up at least 300 years worth of other peoples' experiences at your nearest library. What you don't know isn't our problem.

well said.
note to self: never get on cicatrix's bad side ;)

Ms. Goel's email was not distributed to "friends." As a member of SAJA, we are journalists (who pay for a membership), and receive news tips and story ideas from Sree for our own journalistic reporting to our respective publications. While it was written with overtly emotional tones, she also needed to be aware by contacting the media as it was perceived as factual info. Therein lines the problem of Jeet's accounts vs. additional party-goers accounts as the email was read as a press release.

Cicatrix.

" If you haven't experienced racism, go read up at least 300 years worth of other peoples' experiences at your nearest library "

In case you missed it I said in my first comment on this post;

" Or is it because you have been reading too many books or watching documentaries that catalogue the atrocities committed in the past by White people on indigenous people? It's good to know what happened in the past to make sure it doesn't get repeated but I really believe some of you unwittingly refuse to live in the present. I am not denying there isn't any White racism. I am just saying it's blown way out of proportion."

Did you not figure where I was going with this? I won't dare to rebut what else you say because it might get me banned here and that sure will disappoint the legions of my fans who hang on to my contrarian words for enlightenment. Contrarian because the course, that the posts and subsequent friendly comments take, are usually very predictable. It might surprise you that I also believe for example that Dinesh D Souza, Hannity, O'Reilly and other conservative talk show hosts have the combined intellect of a dead bird. But you won't find that out because there's rarely an argument about that here. I have been pointing to the general direction this incident has taken and I have also rightly pointed out how some here are desperately looking for the hate crime angle. If all else being equal suppose the only two witnesses who have come forward had instead said that this attack was indeed racist - will all of you still have waited for the results of the investigation? Please answer me honestly.

Brooklynbrown -

I think I made a mistake by not proving your lack of credibility by bringing up two instances. Trust me I decided against it at the last minute.

[REMAINDER DELETED BY ADMIN. ENOUGH, YOU GUYS. STAY ON TOPIC AND TAKE YOUR INDIVIDUAL VENDETTAS OFF-BOARD.]

"well said.
note to self: never get on cicatrix's bad side ;)"

Look up to Jilted_Manhood. He'll always be around ( if not in name, certainly in spirit )!

i was there on saturday, had a few drinks, and mingled with the two people i know in nyc. i walked out of the bar/restaurant with mixed feelings. on the one hand, i wanted more. i wanted there to be dialogue, fliers (on information from emails circulating on this issue), and a pot of money to go to mr. nagpal. to my knowledge, there was none of the above. on the other hand, i went out of my way to find out how the victim was doing and ended up speaking with the co-owner of the restaurant and then mr. nagpal's friend, ashish. they, in the best words possible, were so thrilled and humbled by the number of people who came to leela that night. they said words can't describe how it feels to know that young, south asians are supporting them and their friend. maybe it was because i had a drink in me, but the way they said those words made me almost cry. it *does* feel good when our community rallies against violence, when we do take a stand together. and more often than not, we don't do enough of that. we find regional/religious/ethnic differences within us to never stand up for each other. so, it was an honor to be there with those who came to help support this man, his friends, and his business. and of course, i told them to pass on my wishes to mr. nagpal for quick and healthy recovery.

what I takeaway is you have a problem with White people

he reads hearts and minds by reading a handful of blog comments. sepia mutiny, where do you find such geniuses....

Thanks Jeet ( a witness ) for seconding me in exposing Pied Piper in comment # 46. PP, you would gain some credibility if you answered a few of my questions rather than awkwardly trying your pen at humor.

Thanks also to Saira ( a SAJA member ) for echoing the main point I have made.

Btw, why does Brooklynbrown's half of the ' vendetta ' that we share lingers? Why was my rebuttal taken off?

Thank You

I'm late to this discussion but....I bet this is what happened....

1) party is progressing normally. lots of grinding. underage kids puking

2) white boys get very drunk and belligerent because the indian girls arent paying any attention to them. plus the bar is understaffed. they knock over statue accidentally

3) owner of bar is incensed and yells racial epithets at white boys and orders them to eff off. of course its his bar so he can say whatever he wants to. plus its an indian party so he thinks he has numbers in case shit hits the fan

4) white boys are drunk and in no mood to comply. they probably yell back some racial slurs and kick the crap out of bar owner.

Of course this is just a theory but from what i've heard I dont think they showed up with the sole intention to make trouble. of course I'm not taking sides but...it all depends on the legal definition of "hate crime".

This is why every bar needs a big black guy working the door. See how white boys act up then. I feel horrible for this owner, but it seems like he missed bar owner 101.

Jilted, exactly what do you and Jeet think you have exposed? Saying something over and over again doesn't make it true -- and certainly saying nothing (as Jeet has in #46) establishes even less.

Let's see if you're willing to try and learn something beyond your own anecdotal experiences. Here's an article about a 2003 Supreme Court opinion on mixed motive discrimination. The author of the article frames the issues as follows:

The federal courts of appeal have long disagreed about what to do in "mixed motive" discrimination cases - that is, cases in which an adverse employment action (such as a firing, demotion, or failure to hire) occurs for both legitimate and illegitimate reasons. Last week, in its decision in Desert Palace, Inc. v. Costa, the Supreme Court provided some much needed clarity on this issue.

The bottom line of the Court's decision is this: Plaintiffs do not need a "smoking gun" to bring a mixed-motive discrimination case. Instead, less obvious evidence of discrimination can also suffice.

That's welcome news for discrimination victims. Employment decisions are rarely made for a single reason. If discrimination enters into the mix, plaintiffs should have the opportunity to sue - without facing any special, higher standards for the proof they must use. [link]

Before you start with ad hominem attacks on supposedly liberal judges and people "desparately looking for discrimination," the author of the Supreme Court opinion was Justice Thomas.

Next, an excerpt from a guide on hate crimes by the American Proscutors Research Institute discussing mixed motives in the context of hate crimes:

It is important to understand that many hate crimes have dual motives, such as economic/hate and road rage/hate. Often, defense counsel will attempt to use the hate allegation against the prosecutor. Clever defense attorneys attempt to portray the defendant as the hapless soul of an overzealous prosecutor, who is turning a simple misunderstanding into a hate crime. Prosecutors should be prepared to explain the dual motivation and why it is not a legitimate defense.

Illinois and other state and federal courts interpreting general hate crime statues have held that bias must be a motivating factor for a hate crime, but it need not be the sole factor. Although some defendants have argued that a “but for” relationship between the motive and the act is necessary to establish guilt, Illinois courts have consistently rejected such an argument. Thus, a hate crime can be charged even if the underlying offense resulted from a mixture of discriminatory and non-discriminatory motives. [link]

This report comes from a prosecutors' organization, not a community group.

So what was your point again? Oh right, you didn't have one -- rather than responding to any of this on the merits in the first place, you instead resorted to name-calling, finger-pointing, and stupid comments purporting to read people's minds. Oh, and how could I forget -- casual dismissals of people's "credibility" based on absolutely nothing.

So, are you going to remain true to form, responding this time by attacking Justice Thomas and the prosecutors organization because they are supposedly just "looking for a discrimination/hate angle"? This should be good.

PP,

Let's not obfuscate the simple issue at hand by bringing up reports/studies that might or might not far fetchedly burnish our respective positions laid out on this post. I don't deny racism my friend. I refuse to believe it is pervasive in the America of today. That's what my difference is with you. Mine is not a casual dismissal of people's credibility. I have been around this blog long enough to justify my opinion of certain commenters.

You said

" Before you start with ad hominem attacks on supposedly liberal judges and people "desparately looking for discrimination," "

You lose credibility again because you assumed I'd do the above. In one of my comments on this very page I had actually this to say about people who do indulge in such attacks on supposedly liberal judges ;

" I also believe for example that Dinesh D Souza, Hannity, O'Reilly and other conservative talk show hosts have the combined intellect of a dead bird."

I think we both have said enough. Let the readers decide.

I'm not "obfuscating" anything -- I'm simply reiterating the only point I think I've been trying to make in this thread at all: that discrimination and hate crimes often take place in situations involving mixed motives, and therefore the fact that Jeet or anyone else says that the attack in Leela Lounge was provoked by a fight says nothing about whether bias might have been a motive as well.

That's the only point I have been making in this discussion at all, and it's a rather elementary, banal point well-grounded in basic understandings of discrimination, human psychology, and the law. Your principal response -- dare I say your only response, at least to me -- has been to say that I have a problem with white people and am "desperately looking for the hate angle." Which is all just so much nonsense.

You want to talk about losing credibility? You lose credibility when you fail to directly and respectfully engage substantives perspectives with which you might disagree in even a remotely intelligent fashion. And you continue not to do so now.

PP,

" Let's see if you're willing to try and learn something beyond your own anecdotal experience "

I'd advise you to not make light of anecdotal experience. When the cumulative anecdotal experience of a vast representative sample doesn't quite square with the results of certain reports/studies it leads to frustration. IMO, it is this frustration that metamorphoses into part of the bread and butter of right wingnuts. Don't have the time to elaborate on this but I hope you get my point. Besides almost every study/report has as its nemesis yet another study/report.

Jeet and Desildki came up with unvarnished, honest accounts of the incident. To me they were saying " I don't think it was racist. " and you and others interefered by asking " Are you sure? Think again."

People, please don't feed trolls or flame wars.

Chai, thanks so much for this:

it *does* feel good when our community rallies against violence, when we do take a stand together. and more often than not, we don't do enough of that. we find regional/religious/ethnic differences within us to never stand up for each other. so, it was an honor to be there with those who came to help support this man, his friends, and his business

I think you've expressed a sentiment that most of us feel, and did so beautifully.

Here is a post by Ms. Goel posted on the SAJA Blog cite almost a week ago ...

My initial email was intended to reach only my close friends to inform them of the incident after first learning about it. It was circulated beyond my intended scope and because there was nothing in the media, it became the unintended and unqualified "news source" of the story.

Although I am an attorney, I do not practice civil rights law nor work for the government and any reference in my initial email to "hate crime" was more descriptive of my personal opinion and own thoughts on the matter than any type of legal conclusion.

The information we have learned since, through talks with the D.A., is that the D.A.'s office has not decided whether to prosecute this as a "hate crime" under the statute. They are continuing to investigate the matter, build evidence, and seek eyewitnesses that can shed light as to what occurred that evening and what was said. Accordingly, those of us who have volunteered our time to help Ashwani and Asheesh have the understanding, from what we know so far, that although racial animous was a factor that played out at some point in the attack, at least towards Asheesh, we do not yet have the information (nor does the D.A.) to label this as a "hate crime" under the statute. Ultimately, we seek to encourage eyewitnesses to come forward, to educate the community on what occurred so that people can be conscious of what can happen, and to inform those who are in a similar situation as to who to call and which organizations to reach out to. Whether a "hate crime" or not, any violent attack in my opinion is fueled by some type of hate. The fact of the matter is that two members of not only the South Asian community, but the community at large were attacked and one of them happens to be someone I consider a friend. If this crime is ultimately labeled under the law as not a "hate crime", I find it no less appalling. I am inspired and truly amazed at the way the community has mobilized and given their consideration and time to this. I am truly sorry that Ashwani and Asheesh had to pay the price -- but to see such strength and concern in our community -- South Asians and beyond -- is uplifting.

I emailed NY1 asking them to cover this. Maybe if a lot of us do, they will, and in time for the protest February 20th.

My son was falsely accused of assaulting Mister Nagpal and Mr. Mathur. My son is not a "rich white" kid. I am an immigrant, who adopted my son, from a foreign country. We are NOT rich, we are NOT well connected, "whatever that means." I am a nurse who works full time, plus overtime, to maintain a fairly decent lifestyle. I work with many people from India and I have always had the utmost respect for these people, whom I found to be honest and upstanding and hardworking people. I am horrified to read postings on this website that describe any white kid as always being "rich". Is it not a crime for a bar owner to serve minors? Why has this been ignored by the DA? This accusation against my son has caused terrible trauma in my family. My husband who has been fighting cancer for four years is extremely stressed from this dillema. He believes that the law will see the truth. Unfortunately, I believe that an extremely ambitious DA can and will ruin anybodys life in order to get to the top. Five people were identified as assaulting these people. Two have already been cleared of this crime. Seven people are willing to testify that David Falkenstern, my son, did not assault these people. David should not be forced to accept a plea, when he did not committ said crime. I thank desildki for his/her testimony. If this person could contact me I would be forever grateful. Thank you.

Pat Falkenstern