this board has some young folks on it. i hope some of this registers.

what is the learning? that we're all fallible and have been duped time and again by those who deliver destruction in our names. we do get it after a while. unfortunately most of us can never be as shrill about the reasons to shun war as those who need a reason to fight - but we know at the gut level what's rotten and stinks to high heavens - we just need to stick to our guns to affect change.

second learning? that numbers lie. one measures what one wants to see. science is the greatest tool for propaganda ever and those who seek refuge in numbers are either hopelessly naive or dangerously corrupt.

Boo Hoo! Those poor Kashmiri's....their silence during the height of the insurgency was deafening. This sucks ar$e...but its an isolated incident in land where murders and attacks on India's sovereignty is routine.

This is terrible!

hairy_d,

"second learning? that numbers lie. one measures what one wants to see. science is the greatest tool for propaganda ever and those who seek refuge in numbers are either hopelessly naive or dangerously corrupt."

What prompted this comment? I am a bit confused about the context.

Regards,
Anindo

This is eerily reminiscent of how southern law enforcement acted during the Civil Rights era in the U.S.

What prompted this comment? I am a bit confused about the context.

societies function by doling out effort towards the realization of desired objectives. science and engineering facilitate these objectives by establishing and implementing the cause-effect linkage between measured input and targeted results. unfortunately, in the hands of a demagogue, the linkage is at best a single facet of a complex multifaceted living, breathing society - in essence the diabolical mind selects what needs to be demonstrated and establishes measurements and simpleminded linkages to craft the message. essentially, it isnt science but the scientist who is at fault - but the point remains that science is a tool - and a dangerous tool at that.

i hope the above makes sense. language is inadequate to expression of faith - contrary to what the 'god books' have to say.

The coverage at The Hindu Online is a better link. No need for an aussie newspaper that quotes The Hindu.

Sequence of events

1. Partition of India and Pakistan
2. Kashmir remains a separate kingdom
3. Pakistan attacks Kashmir
4. Kashmir King approaches India for assistance
5. War between India and Pakistan
6. Nehru approaches UN
7. UN says, Pakistan to move out of occupied Kashmir, new residents move back to Pakistan and then have a plebiscite in Kashmir
8. Pakistan fails to follow any UN resolution, only wants Indian part of resolution implemented
9. Questionable elections in late 80s in Kashmir
10. Pakistan ISI senses opportunity and encourages terrorism continues till today
11. 50 to 60 thousand Indian Kashmiris dead due to terrorism
12. I wish Nehru had taken care of Pakistan in 1948

Jain Man - you forgot to add:

13. Everything is hunky dory on Pakistan's side of Kashmir :)

Don't know if Pakistan will implode or explode, either way, will be an event to enjoy.

comments#7 and #9 are the reasons why I detest nationalism from the bottom of my heart. Seems to rob people of the capacity to acknowledge the humanity of others. IMHO nationalism is a far greater threat to our survival as a species than religious fundamentalism could ever be.

Don't know if Pakistan will implode or explode, either way, will be an event to enjoy.

Not exactly karuna or ahimsa, eh Jain Man?

If a man does not protect himeself then ahimsa is useless.

Somehow, it is ok for Americans to be nationalistic however desis having it is so barbaric.

If a man does not protect himeself then ahimsa is useless. Somehow, it is ok for Americans to be nationalistic however desis having it is so barbaric.

Pakistan exploding/imploding (assuming it happens) might serve you with some personal schadenfreude, but its not going to protect/help India in any way. In fact it'll make things worse and aggravate the problems of cross-border infiltration and terrorism. Besides that it'd create a major humanitarian crisis India'd certainly have to be involved in. Add to that the refugees a la 1971, and you know that is something you don't want. India's best hope is a stable, democratic, secular Pakistan. How far that is possible is another matter, but hoping for something in the other direction in this case is certainly not patriotism, it is simply jingoism and shallow hatred.

likewise, a stable prosperous india is in the best interest of pakistan, or else all those hindus will flood lahore. lol....

a stable america is in the best interests of iraq. hahahha

Don't know if Pakistan will implode or explode, either way, will be an event to enjoy.

You are one fake "jain". I am guessing you are a BJP hindu fundoo.

metric becomes the goal rather than simply the metric

I expect Pakistan to implode/explode because of her own doing. I don't see anything wrong in enjoying the demise of your enemy.
Jains who don't support self-preservation are 'fake' Jains. Self-destruction so as to not harm your enemy is not a jain belief.

Many of you will support America going to most wars in the past 50 years, however, Indians having any backbone is incomprehensible and unacceptable.

But new security measures on the border (Israeli night vision equipment, new sensors, UAVs) have made it much more difficult for the Islamic terrorists to get from their training camps in Pakistan, into Kashmir. The shortage of terrorists ...

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IMHO nationalism is a far greater threat to our survival as a species than religious fundamentalism could ever be.

I don't see anything wrong in enjoying the demise of your enemy.

Jain Man: If you are talking about a sports team, I would agree with you, but not when you are talking about lives. Think about the kids, think about the women, would you have the same opinion if one of them were related to you?

The action that has to be taken is pretty clear from a political and moral point of view. If the policemen are found guilty, they should be executed.

Setting aside the ammoral reasons for the murders, these men have threatened years of effort by the Indian Government to reach out to the Kashmiri people and atleast some progress was made following the Ikhwani fiasco. The Kashmiris know that things on the Pakistani side of the border aren't as utopian as PTV would have you believe. Thats the only reason India doesn't have a full fledged insurgency akin to Iraq in its hands, also that there is a close ethnic connection with the people.

It was through the efforts of a Kashmiri shepherd that India first was alerted to the Kargil intrusion. Pakistani operations such as Operation Gibraltar failed only due to the Kashmiri's resilience. India must bring them closer to her fold, Kashmiris that are involved in insurgenies should be treated as terrorists but those that are innocent are India's citizens. If the Kashmiris don't see justice meted out, India has lost probably years of hard work.

Some of the idiotic comments on this thread remind me why I wrote this post.

Desi nole:

First I am not anti-muslim, but anti-Pakistani. When the common pakistani folks in Pakistan and England continually fund anti-India operations they are aware that innocent Indian women and children will die. I don't get it, how can you be 'understanding' with an enemy that is largely responsible for the death of 40 to 50 thousand Indian Kashmiris. You can't fight a decent war with people who don't play by the same rules.

Abhi, dude, I do think you sorta asked for it by posting a Kashmir thing, esp one critical of India.

I suggest closing the comments section when you have a Kashmir post in future, that topic just seems to elicit the most disgusting emotions from all sides!

Jain Man, on our boards "inolerant" comments get you banned. Using a broad brush to say you are "anti-Pakistani" is not only intolerant but moronic as it sets off a flame war on our boards (we have Pakistani readers). Either leave productive comments or better yet go read a blog that caters to your sentiments. Thanks.

Abhi, fine you have to appease your pakistani audience. Go ahead and do what is necessary. It still does not change the facts, hope you kids grow out of academics someday.

Abhi, dude, I do think you sorta asked for it by posting a Kashmir thing, esp one critical of India.

I didn't post this but I fully support it. Arguing your point is fine and welcome. Being an intolerant jingo gets you banned here. Those have always been the rules.

Abhi, fine you have to appease your pakistani audience.

No but i will appease myself by ridding us of your comments. Goodbye now.

First I am not anti-muslim, but anti-Pakistani.

this is the critical distinction, not unlike the one between being anti-Semitic and anti-israel. a few commenters on this site have denied the legitimacy of the state of Israel, given her religious discrimination, and i don't think they were threatened with a ban.

Political legitimacy is a...well...legitimate issue, especially when you have a non-democratic state that sponsors terror. in our quest to smoke out jingoism, we could ironically end up enabling it, in its most violent form.

Manju, you can be anti-Israel without being anti-Israeli. Where have you seen a comment where people are anti-Israeli? But why feel the need to announce yourself as either one on the comment thread of this blog which will inevitably lead to myself and the other moderators having to clean up blog vomit? Is it somehow liberating? In the absence of making a valid argument it seems like a waste of everyone's time to see such empty declarations. In the spirit of not wasting my time further I think that is the last I'll say about this. Thanks.

Manju, you can be anti-Israel without being anti-Israeli.

right.. extrapolating you can be anti-India without being anti-Indian, anti-Pakistan without being anti-Pakistani, anti-Hinduism without being anti-Hindu and anti-Islam without being anti-Muslim etc..anti-XXX is good where XXX is an ideology without being anti-YYYY where YYYY are followers of ideology XXXX.

In that sense, "Jain man" missed that test by a single 'i'..

Sequence of events

1. Partition of India and Pakistan
2. Kashmir remains a separate kingdom
.
.
.
12. I wish Nehru had taken care of Pakistan in 1948

13. I wish Indian politicians did not wish to be remembered by posterity for their 'humanism'.

If you want to be remembered as a free spirit - go write poems, craft dense prose, sing a song, blabber about self-determination. But if you have taken up politics, you are operating within the agreed upon 'nation-states' way of looking at the world. You have your swearing-in-ceremony, oath of office etc. You cannot come in and then plan for secession.

What happened in Kashmir is deplorable. These policemen should be punished. Period.

comments#7 and #9 are the reasons why I detest nationalism from the bottom of my heart. Seems to rob people of the capacity to acknowledge the humanity of others.

But that doesn't mean that people who free-ride on institutions created by the most blatant marriage of the state and the 'free market' - usurping and planting regimes at their splendid wintry Wednesday whims - can suddenly start sermonizing. I have been to many countries, but nowhere have I seen as much public display of national flags as in this country. Self-interest works most of the time. And self-interest seeking with guile works even better.

Let all Indians and Pakistanis migrate to the US. Then we can all compare notes on Allende, Pinochet, Victor o Jara, the Indian Removal Act, and the Sioux wars over coffee, with Ward Churchill as a discussant.

I do not think nationalism is bad. If a person is confined within a geographic boundary (to go outside he/she has to get a visa), that person interacts/ has to interact with similar others on a daily basis. It is only natural that communities will develop, they will feel for each other. Or is it against 'choice'? Love for one's nation need not translate into hatred for others. That's crucial. And that's where the Hindutva brigade often falter.

India's best hope is a stable, democratic, secular Pakistan.

Well said. And stop paying for tanks, fighter jets, and other useless stuff that only fill the coffers of shareholders and employees of these publicly-traded companies. Everything is on the supply side. We should push for a moratorium on defense spending.

Jingoism or no jingoism, the fact remains Pakistani state along with large sections of the society (in PAK and UK) continue to support (financially and otherwise) the terrorists in Kashmir and elsewhere. Anyone who proclaims that Pakistan is not in a state of proxy-war with India is utterly delusioned in this matter.
Calling these terrorists as terrorist is not jingoism or senseless patriotism. One can understand that SM has Pakistani readers but that should not imply that someone should be banned just for calling them so.

As far as implosion or explosion of the Pakistani state is concerned, it is a possibility ( and a rather ghastly one at that) which cannot be denied. If some Indian thinks that it is in the India's interest, then so be it. Why so much of noise? Division of Pakistan has occurred before in 1971. By the current rationale brandied here in SM, even that would be some heinous right wing act.

Jain man,

We musn't let our frustrations push us to condoning evil. I know that "S. Asian progressives" are hypocrites when it comes to defending the rights of Hindus/Jains etc. Giving a damn implies that we are powerless outside of where it matters (i.e. outside of the blogosphere & graduate seminar series for people we can buy/sell a thousand times over). We have legitimate grievances but I hope you can step away from this flame war, collect yourself and agree that taking it out on innocent folk is EVIL full stop. You are right, India has a right to protect itself using force. But that force has to be applied correctly. Think about the kind of India you want.

Another point I would like to make is that vilifying the vile is altogether unecessary

Abhi, fine you have to appease your pakistani audience. Go ahead and do what is necessary. It still does not change the facts, hope you kids grow out of academics someday.

Comments like this will only stop the moderators from publishing such topics. I know how you feel, i've read about the financing also. But there are hundreds of other sites out there for anti-pakistan venting. This one lets us discuss these issues in a dignified manner, many of us being representative of South Asian backgrounds. And there are people out there just looking for a chance to jump at a flame war and race-bashing which destroys the very purpose of this blog. These are relevant topics and can be hotly debated without any name calling. The moderator knows that it has potential of turning into one and frankly there are readers like me and hopefully you who can debate this in an intelligent manner and looking forward to the chance of doing so. Don't make the moderators stop posting about such flame inducing topics that have the potential for interesting debate.