Ahh where do I start...

For people who buy into this BS, it provides peace of mind. Otherwise your life is in your hands, you can make ir or break it.

Besides, if marrying a tree (or an urn) and then 'killing' it, gets rid of the problem, I am sure there are other guidelines about getting married to a 'widow'.

Selective acceptance seems to work for these people.

Brown dudes all over the world are jealous of a Peepal and Banana tree.

Mangal Shumpgal. My pandit told me that I have something in my 'kundli' that nullifies and negates a mangal dosh. Fortuntely, those super powers were not necessary since my wife doesn't have a mangal.

And apparently people of both sexes can be mangliks. See here and feel free to delete this comment.

Punjabis usually don't believe in jyotish astrology. BUT, it is strange how a manglik friend was told her case was so bad that she, too, had to do a similar ritual. Sadly strange, her husband of 1.5 years did die in India. My stars say I'd be a bad driver throughout my life, and proudly attest to giving "women drivers" a bad name. Perhaps I should carry my kundli in my car, to prove I am simply fulfilling my destiny by running red lights, speeding, and tailgating.

that I have something in my 'kundli'

A little something in your wallet also helps.

My main experience with this is with the writer R.K. Narayan, who married for love -- in a match that was condemned by the Jyotish. But then his wife died quite young, and Narayan was crushed (he never really recovered). Some recent critics have suggested that it might have actually made him become rather superstitious, and you can kind of see why.

If I were in Aish's situation, I might agree to it just so no older person would later blame me in case the marriage to Bachchan Incorporated turns out to be a flop.

I must admit I don’t know very much about Hindu astrology

I doubt if this has anything to do with the Hindu religion. Stuff like manglik, karwa-chauth and other practices aren't prevalant in South India. They seem to be regional rituals based on superstition than on any religious text.

Has everyone missed the irony of this?

In Lage raho Munnabhai, ABeta has a special role as the groom of the sardar's daughter and the bride has some dosh (maybe manglik) that meant a short life for the groom if marrried. ABeta makes a little speech in the end, after sanju baba and gandhi intervene and he ocmes off all prgressive that if he is meant to die, he would rather die for marrying the love of his life or some such tripe.

Yet, in real life....

Am I mixing up movies here or did this not happen?

A little something in your wallet also helps.

Yup. Being a resource Guju, my dad eventually got a computer program and he found a computer game he actually liked. Seriously, the old man was having a blast matching people up for the fun of it.

In terms of a lawsuit? I think it's invasion on someone's privacy. I wouldn't like the precedent set.

Quizman: But aren't the famed nadi readings from South India? Nadi Astrology is an ancient Indian method of Astrology to learn about one's past, present and future. My friends recently trekked from Mumbai to a famous temple to find their destinies, which were written by Vedic "rishis" or seers. My understanding was these nadis were also based in Hinduism.

Here's the story behind why astrolgers are never 100% correct:

"An astrologer once he went to Kailash and met Lord Shiva. He told he would like to have Darsahn of Both Shiva and Parvati. Shiva said Parvati is taking her bath. Then Brihaspati predited that there is mole on her thigh. Shiva surprised and told the Parvati that how true is Jyotish. But this made Parvati angry. She cursed that astrology is always half truth and half lie."

Quizman: The south Indian version of Manglik is called 'sevai dosham'.

Dabba, good point.

Dabba, thanx for the LRM bit, I'd completely forgotten that section of the movie!

manglik, karwa-chauth and other practices aren't prevalant in South India

I second Tara, we just have different names down south.

People with manglik dosh are prone to multiple marriages

All hope is not lost.

What do readers think? Is this “backward” practice part of a slippery slope (only one step away from things that are much more problematic), or something basically harmless?

I support the practice. I'd even like to donate some wood.

I would like to donate some *wood* too.

Sorry manju, that was left wide open. someone had to take the shot.

This gets pretty weird

... To fend off the controversy around Aishwarya's marriages [to the Peepal and the banana tree] Pandit Harkishen Joshi said that Aishwarya's planetary alignment boded ill for both Abhishek and his father. In order to reduce the risk to both the Bachchans Aishwarya needed to be re-born with a new father, and to consummate a marriage with another husband. Pandit Joshi chose the Peepal tree because of the large cavity in its trunk from which Aishwarya emerged as she did when she first came to this world. He chose the banana tree because it was a South Indian species of banana which is no longer than four inches, so as to cause the minimum discomfort to its bride at the time of consummation. These acts completed, the Pandit feels the risk to the Bachchans well-being is now minimal.

Not minimal enough. Apparently the old guy got kicked in the head by a camel recently.

Bollywood's iconic actor Amitabh Bachchan is thanking an elaborate Indian headgear for saving his life after he was kicked on the head by a camel while shooting for a film, a newspaper reported on Thursday.

I must admit I don’t know very much about Hindu astrology, and so can’t say what role caste plays in these practices in general.

I don't think it plays a role here. The groom - half Bong and half UP bhaiya - is prima facie "mixed" caste. The bride is Bunt. It just goes to show that orthodoxy can survive caste.

I believe the manglick has ruined many a good person; forcing parents to "settle." When some scheming aunts asked me to prepare horoscopes when my wife and I decided to marry (we met on our own) I told em to shove it up their kundis.

The groom - half Bong and half UP bhaiya - is prima facie "mixed" caste.

Also, add Abhishek's grandmother Teiji Bachchan is a Sikh.

Also, add Abhishek's grandmother Teiji Bachchan is a Sikh.

Well Sikh and Hindu Punjabis very commonly intermarry. It happened right through the Khalistani agitations and continues today, even among some ABDs I know. I believe that Vikram Singh - the New York playboy - married a Hindu.

Well Sikh and Hindu Punjabis very commonly intermarry.

This "mangalik" bullsh$t is huge back home (may not be everywhere in India. Just like preety much anything related to India) Dont underestimate the power of the "mangal" :-)

The south Indian version of Manglik is called 'sevai dosham'

only for tamilians - i dont think its as prevalent in any of the other southern states

manglik, karwa-chauth and other practices aren't prevalant in South India

yup - i hadt even heard of manglik before and karwa chauth is not practiced anywhere in south (not in karnataka at least)

Shruti Singh’s claim that this practice promotes untouchability?

she's looking for 15 minutes of fame

all this manglik does seem pretty farfetched considering that these are educated individuals who are doing this... however i dont see no connection whatsoever as to how this promotes untouchability

and if it means that the married trees wont be cut down, let whoever wants to marry all the trees they want...it will help bangalore's pollution problem a little

This is one stupid lawsuit where I hope the rich and powerful use their influence and come out victorious. I never heard of such stupidity. Just because the Bachchans are high profile folks, they should face a lawsuit? While millions of relatively obscure people follow these idiotic superstitions and rituals too? Why doesn't she sue EVERYONE in India who does this? I agree she's just seeking her 15 minutes of fame. And I don't see any caste connection here at all. On that topic, Abhishek is 25% Sikh (not sure which caste), 25% U.P. Kayastha, and 50% Bengali (not sure which caste). Aish is 100% Bunt. This is the future of urban India...mixed marriages will be the rule.

He chose the banana tree because it was a South Indian species of banana which is no longer than four inches, so as to cause the minimum discomfort to its bride at the time of consummation

Good golly, I thought this was all symbolic. Can't believe I'm even asking this - the banana actually, er, made the trip up the canal?

I dont really care if the average person follows this tradition. But if you are one of the biggest celebrities in India, you carry a certain responsibility to choose a progressive path, because millions look up to you. If Aishwarya truly believes in this "manglik" tradition, then its ok. But if she is doing it just to be on the safe side, then its wrong because not only is she being hypocritical (that goes for AB too, especially after his Munnabhai cameo), but she is, in a way, encouraging others to keep following tradition without questioning it.

Good golly, I thought this was all symbolic. Can't believe I'm even asking this - the banana actually, er, made the trip up the canal?

Now THAT would be horrible and humiliating for her (if true). It's funny how orthodox some of these Bollywood families can be when most other aspects of their lives are so thoroughly westernised.

But if you are one of the biggest celebrities in India, you carry a certain responsibility to choose a progressive path, because millions look up to you.

That can be argued. But I definitely don't think they are LEGALLY more responsible than anyone else. As for the whole concept of celebrities being role models, I think Ice Cube summed it up best:

"Do I look like a motherf**king role model? To a young kid looking up to me - life ain't nothing but bitches and money".

I don't agree with Ice Cube's premise about the meaning of life, but I agree with the implied ridiculousness of holding famous people up as exemplars.

I wouldn't make a sweeping statement like that. Chatwal is not a good example.

It is very common in Punjab, and around area.

PPPS: Since this thread is not about that, let focus on manglik issue.

Heck, if a woman can marry a tree, urn or a snake (another story), then people should stfu when 2 women decide to marry each other or two men do so.

Its not just double standards, but kinda mocking the life of a gay couple when you tell them that they're below the level of urns,trees and snakes.

ashte!

BTW, Sepia Mutiny is referenced here.

the thought of the broken urn-husband is very sad, indeed.

and the concept of dosham exists, to my knowledge, in andhra as well. though i do think, in general, us south indians, particularly tamils, are more tied to the astrology bit than in other places - my aunt in madras times her entire days by rahu kalam. coming from a ridiculously superstitious family, i sort of run away at the mention of any of this stuff. but if it's your thing, so be it.

and in my brief googling on doshams, i found that the manglik dosh might really mean sexual incompatibility.

It is very common in Punjab, and around area.

Sikh-Hindu marriages tend to be among people within the same caste...as are most Sikh-Sikh marriages. Marriages ACROSS caste lines are less common, regardless of religion.

This lawsuit is what really bothers me. You know, I doubt whatever the Bachchans did was ILLEGAL...unless those particular rituals (marrying trees, etc) ARE against the law, I don't know.

Back to the subject at hand...it is possible for males to marry a tree as well for manglik dosh protection. I cite my great grandfather and am proud to announce there is banyan in my family tree./bad pun. In that way, I don't see this being anti-feminist and misogynistic because it is one of those equal opportunity marriages and one of the few in India that doesn't take the caste of the bride/groom-to-be into consideration. Only its genus and species, really, and even then the marriage isn't consummated...it's more of a case of spiritual domestic tree violence where the curse of the marriage is transmitted onto an object that doesn't have a high profile celebrity status. This can't possibly be the only action that promotes untouchability and even then, I fail to see a very strong correlation. She's marrying Abhishek even though he's "mixed caste" as everyone has proven repeatedly in the posts above and marrying the tree isn't to protect her from the fact that they're different castes--it's a superstition regarding the sanctity of marriage as a whole. The feminists have real issues to tackle and this is not one of them.

Dabba,
AB 2.0 hasnt ran away from marrying Ash even after knowing about Mangal in Ash's Kundali. His family was quite against the whole thing because of this reason. If He or Ash are trying to keep the family happy i see not much harm in it.

How come no one mentioned another movie of AB2.0 Sarkar where he mention he is an Athiest. Lets hold the actors responsible for whatever they do on screen. :)

what do i think? at least hindus don't blow themselves up for their idiotic superstitions. nevertheless, it makes me to whince when i agree with my fundamentalist relatives who ramble on about how primitive and unfounded astrology is. then i whince against when they recommend drinking holy water that's been prayed on for good health. who said there's intelligent life on earth?

this is a ridiculous lawsuit, no matter what you think of the practice. how does it promote caste and untouchability any more than people advertising for spouses from a certain background, or caste-based reservations or other such practices? i also think calling practices like this backward etc. is problematic. if this is backward superstition, they why aren't other religious beliefs and practices backward and superstitious? such as saying a mantra for some purpose or walking around a fire during a marriage or making the sign of the cross or saying you won't be saved unless you believe in this or that or praying five times a day or visiting some saint's/guru's tomb? believing in a God in the first place is a superstition. why is one better than another? it's all superstition. practices such as marrying trees are just not mainstream enough (anymore). but they are common in tribal communities and other communities. this sort of disdain for some of these practices reflect the tyranny of "higher" religions or the allegedly "higher" strata of religions. all religions - "high" or "low" have harmful and less harmful practices. the reasons for her doing it are debatable depending on one's belief, but again that comes down to individual belief and that is her choice.

"and if it means that the married trees wont be cut down, let whoever wants to marry all the trees they want...it will help bangalore's pollution problem a little"

actually practices such as belief in sacred trees and animals, symbolically marrying them etc. have played an important role in preserving biodiversity around the world, and especially in India. In India, some of the rarest and sometimes only living remnant of a certain species are often found in sacred forests - protected by a belief in their sacredness and various taboos against destroying/killing them. sacred forests are also an important source of rare medicinal plants. in indian states where there has been large-scale conversion to another religion that bans tree/animal worship or where Hinduism have become more Sanskritized etc., the percentage of sacred forests has declined, in addition to other causes such as development. sacred forests are important refuges and are a vital tool in conservation of species and in planning and designating conservation areas and corridors etc.

breaking news.

Reuters (Mumbai) - Bollywood star Abhishek Bachchan was rushed to Breach Candy hospital last night at ten minutes to midnight because he was complaining of severe stomach pains. Upon diagnosis, the doctors determined that the pain was caused due to extreme spreadage of his pelvic girdle which led to severe stomach distention and trauma to the duodenum. The resident surgeon, Dr. Sheila Duggal commented that this situation is known in non-medical terms as granny ass and it plagues roughly 32% of south asian males. There is no known remedy. Upon being informed of the diagnosis, Abhishek's fiancee Aishwarya Rai, who is herself a Bollywood superstar, commented that she liked men with a little yardage. She was however relieved that Abhishek's pain was caused due to natural causes and not due to her being a manglik.

"Brown dudes all over the world are jealous of a Peepal and Banana tree"

LMAO! I'm not sure this should be the subject of a lawsuit, but several social commentators have written about the probability that the Bachchans have insisted on tree-weddings, given the unusual number of temple visits in the past year, despite AB's airy talk about the engagement being "sudden" and the tree-marriage talk "media hype." It might not be worth a lawsuit, but it lowers the Bachchans tremendously in my eyes. And Aishwarya, who could have any bloody man, tree or inanimate object she wanted, should have put her foot down.

In Hindu tradition, in order to offset the evil influence of manglik dosh, a woman should marry a peepal or banana tree before she ties the knot with her fiancé. Or she could even marry a clay urn, which should be broken soon after the nuptial ceremonies, signifying that the bride has become a widow, and the manglik dosh problem has been solved.

I wonder if Manju thinks whether this is a noble lie as well.

what do i think? at least hindus don't blow themselves up for their idiotic superstitions.

Not even out of embarrassment?

I've watched the Hindi telecast of this "promotes untouchability" lawsuit, and I think the words used were misleading. Shruti Singh did not say this practice promotes caste untouchability. She said it promotes "chua-chhoot" (which can mean discrimination in this context) against manglik women. She also said that if high-profile people like the Bachchans indulged in such practices, common people would copy them and parents of manglik girls would have to arrange these bizarre rituals in addition to everything else. So manglik girls will face even more discrimination than they do now.
Btw, I agree with those who think this lawsuit was filed for publicity. But she definitely didn't mean 'untouchability' in the caste context.

us south indians, particularly tamils, are more tied to the astrology bit than in other places

I agree but from my experience it seems to be decreasing with each generation. My grandmothers do all sorts of things that, to me, are rather nonsensical. My parents aren't nearly as superstitious, but they do silly things like move the car from the garage and park it on the street before a long trip because it's drishti to leave after a certain time. In India, I've got cousins who've had arranged marriages but the parents haven't exchanged jaadhaham (astrological biodata is the best translation I can think of) in order to avoid the very issues that are the subject of the post.

Lunatic, thanks for the clarification.

"People with manglik dosh are prone to multiple marriages,"

Was Ms. Manglik the JLo of 5000 years ago?

Abhishek is 25% Sikh (not sure which caste)

You mean 25% Punjabi? And has a grandparent who was Sikh?

Leaving aside the notion of whether marrying a tree to overcome manglik dosh is regressive or not, how do you file a PIL on this sort of thing?

My understanding of this sort of litigation is that it gives citizens an opportunity to petition the government for some sort of directive to change government conduct. But this suit is being filed in response to private conduct.

It seems completely wrong to me that state governments can be "badgered" into regulating private, and in the larger scheme of things, fairly harmless conduct. I mean, I can see the point of the government banning dowry as a regressive custom that is dangerous to women. But this seems to be taking it too far.

The government should not discriminate on the basis of caste, language, religion, gender, etc. But human beings will always discriminate, in their social and personal lives, and there is a limit to what the government should reasonably do in such cases, IMO.

Regarding comment #47,

I blogged about this whole Manglik business earlier.
Being a Manglik apparently has nothing to do with caste. If you're someone with a severe "dosha"(fault) in your horoscope, you're screwed in the arranged marriage market. Untouchable may not be the right word. Ostracized or discriminated against are more like it.
When celebrities like Abhishekwarya participate in these blind superstitious rituals, they're doing a disservice to society and directly or indirectly, promoting these discriminatory practices. Since a PIL is filed by a member of the public directly in the court, the government has nothing to do with. This is a judiciary matter not legislative. I don't consider it government interference in our lifestyle.

Since a PIL is filed by a member of the public directly in the court, the government has nothing to do with. This is a judiciary matter not legislative

Well, first of all, the judiciary is part of the system of government, even though it makes independent decisions, and has the right to review legislative action, so I disagree with the distinction you are making. If the courts in India were to begin sorting cases according to caste, that would be actionable as violating the constitution.

Second of all, the result of a PIL is the court directing either the state government or the central government to take action. In that sense, it absolutely invokes legislative conduct.

Should the government really regulate the extent to which individuals choose to believe in astrology, superstition, etc? At what point does the regulation become severe enough to be considered a violation of freedom of religion?

I'm not religious in fact I try to stay away from anything religious and have forced my parents to accept that and respect it. However my mother does follow some silly handpicked superstitions and out of respect I will follow them to make her happy. Things like buy a house facing east west, yes it does make practical sense that a north/south house won't get direct sunlight.

Anyway it's a tough call. I usually pick and choose battles with my parents now that they are much older. Some battles aren't worth fighting. If my parents asked me to marry a tree I'd do it to make THEM happy. If my inlaws asked me to marry a tree and my husband to be didn't have an objective opinion I might have a massive problem with it.

It's hard to judge someone on something ridiculous like this. On one hand I'd say "WTF stand up for yourself and make your man stand upto his parents" but if you love someone you learn to bend a little and make parents happy too. I'd suggest the suecrazy person however to employ his/her energies in fighting bigger battles.

You mean 25% Punjabi? And has a grandparent who was Sikh?

Yeah.

There are various acts of Parliament that allow someone to be sued for demanding dowry, including caste in matrimonial ads etc (though this last one seems to have been relaxed a little, earlier all ads had to say "caste no bar" and now "communities" are openly listed) - so there may be some legal basis for the PIL. Still, the mangal-dosh nonsense in this particular case would seem to be a "victimless crime" and it's hard to argue that someone was discriminated against on this basis. If you were to file PILs against everyone who was, as the quaint expression goes, "caste-ridden" in their thinking or superstitious, or sexist, you'd have to sue half the country. Best focus on actual cases of harm, like caste discrimination in employment and so on.

If my parents asked me to marry a tree I'd do it to make THEM happy. If my inlaws asked me to marry a tree and my husband to be didn't have an objective opinion I might have a massive problem with it.

Why would you do it for your parents but not your in-laws? This right here is the root cause for so many marital problems among our current generation of desis.

There are various acts of Parliament that allow someone to be sued for demanding dowry, including caste in matrimonial ads etc (though this last one seems to have been relaxed a little, earlier all ads had to say "caste no bar" and now "communities" are openly listed) - so there may be some legal basis for the PIL.

Yeah. I'm just curious what that legal basis is. As I understand it, there is an actual statute criminalizing the practice of demanding dowry, so I can see what the basis of a PIL would be in that case, and caste discrimination in private sector employment, education, etc. would be a homerun PIL. But the manglik issue doesn't necessarily invoke caste. For example, in the Tamil community, belief in "sevvai dosham" allegedly transcends most caste lines.

Still, the mangal-dosh nonsense in this particular case would seem to be a "victimless crime" and it's hard to argue that someone was discriminated against on this basis.

Exactly. In the grand scheme of things, this strikes me as a relatively harmless ritual. At any rate, a PIL should have to balance societal harms of private conduct against the cost of enforcing (in theory) any directive that is the result of the PIL. In this case, the cost outweighs the harm significantly.

i fail to see how marrying a tree is setting feminism back. maybe a particular brand of feminism, like...umm...oh i dunno...the vhite/vestern kind.

so three points: 1)i guess one could look at it in many ways. 2) this is mine. and 3) i think that marrying a tree is not necessarily to be interpreted as literal as "breaking a curse." it really should be philosophized as a way of renouncing a notion of the self/transcending the body/creating good karma. that seems feminist to me, particularly the transcending the body.

anyway...i'm off to my meditation in indian culture class :D tootles!

Sikh-Hindu marriages tend to be among people within the same caste...as are most Sikh-Sikh marriages. Marriages ACROSS caste lines are less common, regardless of religion.

Yes, like Khatris and Mair Rajputs. I would venture that there are very few urban Hindu Punjabi families without at least a couple of Sikh intermarriages - and vice versa. That being said, I think urban Punjabis have generally done a good job of putting caste behind them, at least compared to some other groups.

This is the future of urban India...mixed marriages will be the rule.

Yes, this appears likely, though most of India is still rural. Even communities traditionally finicky about exogamy like Tamil Brahmin Iyers and Sindhis are experiencing this. Interestingly, women with the manglick dosham are marketed beyond caste lines more widely because of the "defect." So a Tamil Brahmin family may be amenable to "any South Indian Brahmana" as a result of the bad alignment.

Vikram Chatwal married his wife with the consent of his parents, there was no religious controversy whatever, and they had Hindu and Sikh ceremonies.

BTW this astology stuff, its not just superstitious provincials who believe this. I know a Professor who holds chairs in both physics and mathematics who puts out an astrology journal in Upstate New York - he told me unabashedly that he thinks there's "something to it."

Why would you do it for your parents but not your in-laws? This right here is the root cause for so many marital problems among our current generation of desis.

Such a gray area Amitabh. My parents have earned my compromise while my in-laws haven't yet. And yes they are the husband's parents but just as I take responsiblity for my parents actions I'd expect him to take responsiblity for his parents actions.

Again this is such a nebulous topic that to make any rigid statements about it would be out of line. Every single situation is subjective. I wouldn't be so quick to blame a whole generation of desis.

I'd say the root cause of so many problems today is the fact that the current generation doesn't blindly follow cultural rules and rites and prefers to question them as well as authority. Not a bad thing IMO. The implied and demanded respect irrespective of how poorly behaved the demanding party is is now questioned by the current generation. Again in my opinion that's a good thing.

Hema - not sure what the exact statute is here, there may well be one about "promoting obscurantism and quackery," but the general point I was trying to get at was that there is a basis for the Indian state to intervene in what it considers "backward" or harmful social practices. It would be interesting if someone argued that women were more likely to be discriminated against as mangliks or something, but I doubt it, because people are usually OK with a manglik-manglik match, and if all else fails, there are always silly tree-rituals and other forms of bribing the priests gods. This PIL strikes me as similar to a hisbah suit in old-fashioned Islamic law, when you can basically intervene in people's private lives to say they did something un-Islamic and should be punished.

BTW this astology stuff, its not just superstitious provincials who believe this. I know a Professor who holds chairs in both physics and mathematics who puts out an astrology journal in Upstate New York - he told me unabashedly that he thinks there's "something to it."

As much as I love logic I absolutely love Astrolgy...perhaps western astrology more than eastern astrology :-)

Astrology is nothing but the emotional side of astronomy.

I don't put alot of faith in it, but I do think there is some science behind. Water levels change according to the waxing and waning of the moon. Humans on Earth are composed mostly of water, hence I do think there is something to be said for changes within us also, according to the waxing and waning of the moon as well as the positions of other planets.

Astrology seeks to explain our emotional states from a planetary perspective. I am willing to concede that the moon and other planets might have some effect on our bodies and minds, just as they do the Earth planet.

Marrying a tree or whatever might be a superstition, but what if it actually works?

oh and one more thing! this comment seems pretty accurate :P

Such a gray area Amitabh. My parents have earned my compromise while my in-laws haven't yet. And yes they are the husband's parents but just as I take responsiblity for my parents actions I'd expect him to take responsiblity for his parents actions.

Yeah, but maybe just like you would be willing to do something small (like tree marrying) you don't believe in, just to please your parents, make them happy and silence them, maybe he would feel the same way towards his.

Just because he's a man - why would he have to "stand up" with an "objective opinion"?

karwa chauth

Different name in Tamilnadu man, I wish I could wake my mom up, she does this every year, slightly different procedure, but the goal is the same.

JOAT, I think that as Indian women we are also more sensitive to in-law demands precisely because the norm of the previous generation and even now is for the woman and her family to treat the in-laws' wishes as their command - and the classic husband's-parents would require things of their DIL that they never would of their daughter. So even if it's relatively harmless to humour someone on these grounds, I too would be more hesitant to humour in-laws than parents because it opens a whole different can of worms. Similarly, I'd be quicker to humour a parent who is more generally respectful than one who demands something unreasonable on sexist grounds.

Well, first of all, the judiciary is part of the system of government, even though it makes independent decisions, and has the right to review legislative action, so I disagree with the distinction you are making.

Should the government really regulate the extent to which individuals choose to believe in astrology, superstition, etc?

Is there any equivalent of Karva Chauth that husbands perform for the benefit of wives?

I asked my neighbor this once when his wife was fasting on that day and he said, "the husband gives his whole life to the wife, no need for one day fasting".

So even if it's relatively harmless to humour someone on these grounds, I too would be more hesitant to humour in-laws than parents because it opens a whole different can of worms.

True enough. But it's a fine line to walk. Although I'm hesitant to humor my in-laws, I find myself doing it anyway. My parents asking me to do something unreasonable would make me rant at them for hours, for being backward, superstitious, lord-knows-what-else. When my in-laws ask, my response is more "ok, I'll think about it."

I'm not entirely sure this is just norming of behavior to an accepted cultural model. Maybe. I also think the fact that you rarely know your in-laws as well as you know your own parents has something to do with it.

For all we know, Aishwarya is doing this for the sake of her own parents rather than at the request of her future in-laws.

Just because he's a man - why would he have to "stand up" with an "objective opinion"?

You are implying that as a woman I am not required to stand up to my parents. Are you? Because I'd expect both man and woman to raise objections to either set of parents based on the validity of the request and it's effect on the relationship. I just believe that my objection to my parents carries more weight just as his objection to his parents for obvious reasons.

So even if it's relatively harmless to humour someone on these grounds, I too would be more hesitant to humour in-laws than parents because it opens a whole different can of worms. Similarly, I'd be quicker to humour a parent who is more generally respectful than one who demands something unreasonable on sexist grounds.

You said it more succinctly. Exactly my line of thought. Unfortunately like most desi women I've seen the 'harmless' demands from in-laws ruin marriages and wreck havoc in lives of women over time in my family and circle of friends. I'm simply speaking from that POV and knowing myself.

Carib Queen,

What about the African practice of having sex with virgins to cure AIDS, what if it actually *works*?

These superstitions need to rooted out of human society as they are the cause of untold misery and suffering. Astrology is merely the less poisonous part of this giant cloud of ignorance that mankind has been working to climb above. It's merely used to rip off ignorant people.

Gazsi

My parents asking me to do something unreasonable would make me rant at them for hours, for being backward, superstitious, lord-knows-what-else. When my in-laws ask, my response is more "ok, I'll think about it."

Yeah, I can see that. Though funnily enough, many of my aunts now joke that they are much more sensitive about their DIL's feelings and walk on eggshells because they don't want to be the stereotypical saas, while the DIL's own mother is more likely to yell at her daughter ;)

Is there any equivalent of Karva Chauth that husbands perform for the benefit of wives?

I asked my neighbor this once when his wife was fasting on that day and he said, "the husband gives his whole life to the wife, no need for one day fasting".

Grooooan...that is such a desi uncle thing to say. Ugh.

PPPS: Since this thread is not about that, let focus on manglik issue.

Yes let's. Years ago, when I was stuck on how to settle a conjecture that would amount to one half of my dissertation, I found myself with too much time on my hands and posted the following passage on a matrimonial website:

High-status family, with extensive interests in the banana trade, seeks match for their son: 26, 5'8", and very well-educated. Son already highly placed, with prospects to reach the very top. Seeking a comely, well-educated girl, 21-25 yrs, with an interest in both the home and the outdoors. C/D no bar; all we seek is a good family tree. Monkliks preferred. Apply with... etc., etc.

It was utterly astonishing to me that so many "uncles" and "aunties" just failed to spot the problem with this ad. I was surprised to learn how much in-demand one could become just for declaring a preference for mangliks. After a year of good fun, I was informed by the e-matrimonial site that that I was "corrupting their database", and that they would have to remove my advert :(

Seeking a comely, well-educated girl,

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but the "comely" thing in the ad bothers me more than the manglik preference thing.

I'm going to have to figure out how to file a PIL remotely. That's discrimination against the non-comely. ;)

"Comely" looks like a typo, bet it should have been "homely" - the all-purpose matrimonial shortcut to say "home-loving" with no idea of the real meaning of the word.

I'm sorry but what is comely? Is that like comatose? Or is it in the context of 'sober' that my father liberally uses. 'You should be friends with that girls, she's so sober.' As if at this age I need my parents to dictate my friends and didn't I see this same girl drunk at a club last weekend? :-)

Comely

1. pleasing in appearance; attractive; fair: a comely face. 2. proper; seemly; becoming: comely behavior.

I've been in relationships so bad marrying a tree would have been more exciting. Cherry Blossoms are quite sexy.

I've been in relationships so bad marrying a tree would have been more exciting. Cherry Blossoms are quite sexy

Ouch. Hahahahhahahah

C/D no bar

For the matrimony column uneducated, what is C/D? Cross dresser?

LMAO! No, "caste/dowry" not "cross dresser"!! Vesternized baccha.

"Comely" looks like a typo, bet it should have been "homely" - the all-purpose matrimonial shortcut to say "home-loving" with no idea of the real meaning of the word.

LMAO! Right. The one that always gets me is "wheatish complexion." I've seen plenty of wheat fields, and if anyone I knew was actually the color of wheat shock, I'd be worried.

No, SP @ #73, it's not a typo. I placed that ad, so I should know! Dudes... are the inneuendos in that ad (crucually, the one deliberate typo in there) too subtle!?! Maybe thay are; it took the matrimonial dot-com a full year to rumble me.

Vesternized baccha.

Actually, I prefer "matrimonial columns un-savvy".

You see Janeofalltrades, this thread just shows to me how narrow minded most people are, unlike people like you and I. Have you seen naked apple and orange and silver birches in bloom? Ohmygod.

Don't knock it until you've tried it, know what I mean?

Although I do have some standards. Personally, I wouldnt marry an older tree; I mean older than 300 years. So most English Oaks are out of the question for me. And Weeping Willows, forgetaboutit, too neurotic.

Oho, naughty bway! Like that, is it?

Khatri Hindu Punjabi male, 27, Professional (MBBS, LLb, PhD,) from good family, Green Card in application stage, skin colour not too bad, westernised but has respect for backward traditions, seeks deciduous Tree, classification no barrier, must be wheatish complexion with smooth bark that doesnt bleed sap too much, with strong roots, many branches, certified without woodworm for mutual conjugal relationship and propagation of orchards. Dowry expected, Redwoods and Spruces need not apply.

all we seek is a good family tree.

I totally missed this part, but how funny is that, in view of the current discussion? Heh. You really can't make this stuff up, but if you're going to...

We marry trees.
No wonder we are referred to as macacas.

Personally, I wouldnt marry an older tree; I mean older than 300 years. So most English Oaks are out of the question for me. And Weeping Willows, forgetaboutit, too neurotic.

My personal preference would be the North American Beech. Big I mean HUGE...can be over 20 feet wide and 100 feet tall and is the toughest and strongest of the species and lives thru storms and has a long life. Flowers of both sex, nuts grow in pairs and it feeds 100s of other living things. What more can one ask from a partner?

From #87,

nuts grow in pairs...

!!?!!

Yeah dude the nuts of the NA Beech tree grow in pairs! I didn't make that up come on :-)

I guess superstition is the price you pay for not having organized religion. It's a shame she's caught up in all of this, but the fear factor can be quite strong so in a way I do understand. As for the concept of marrying trees and pots, that's cool. Nothing wrong with ritual. It's meant to be meaningless. It's those who try and read too much meaning in the symbolism who are misguided, imo.

Here's the one place where I sincerely admire the so-called great religions. On a foundation of smoke and mirrors they have managed to build a superstructure and to extract some meaning. As for Hindus, they stand on a rock solid foundation but the edifice is as rotten as rotten can be, and then some.

LMAO! No, "caste/dowry" not "cross dresser"!! Vesternized baccha.

"C/D" means caste/DENOMINATION - nobody mentions the other D word (dowry) in an ad explicity since its illegal.

I've never heard "denomination" used in Indian matrimonials - kyon, GB, what was your matlab?

http://www.mysticfamiliar.com/library/astrology/tree_astrology.htm

I am ASH tree.

Um, to the best of my knowledge the "caste/dowry no bar" thing is mentioned in ads precisely because it's illegal to require a particular caste/amount of money.

"We marry trees.
No wonder we are referred to as macacas."

no, we are too conditioned to see ourselves through the eyes of others, so we are well-trained macacas:) better to be a wild macaca wedded to a tree than a tamed, chained one doing party tricks for others.

no, we are too conditioned to see ourselves through the eyes of others, so we are well-trained macacas:) better to be a wild macaca wedded to a tree than a tamed, chained one doing party tricks for others.

Hear hear!
Embrace your exoticism.

Um, to the best of my knowledge the "caste/dowry no bar" thing is mentioned in ads precisely because it's illegal to require a particular caste

Who you kidding? I've seen a million ads requiring a khatri, brahmin or some other xyz girl.

I guess superstition is the price you pay for not having organized religion

Arguably this particular superstition is based on the organised part of Hinduism, since it's pandits who are supposed to do your horoscope and then do your de-manglikification....I'd laugh off the ritual myself, if I had to do it - but clearly someone in that bunch(Bachchans, Ash or her clan) takes it seriously, which is why they are doing it, no?

Sakshi - yeah, things have eased up now and you see all the various castes/communities listed, but back in the day, you couldn't mention caste and everyone wrote the obligatory "caste no bar" even while giving lots of "community" clues. Haven't looked at the ads in a while so I don't know what the norm is now.

I find this whole thing funny and very strange. When I got married, we did none of that horoscope checking. Me or my husband could be manglik for all we know.

Also, why doesn't this stuff concern non indians?

Is it really 2007?

Is it really 2007?

Let him who's never checked his weekly astrological forecast cast the fist stone.

Um, to the best of my knowledge the "caste/dowry no bar" thing is mentioned in ads precisely because it's illegal to require a particular caste/amount of money.

Um, no. it is only illegal to extract dowry. You can require whatever you want from prospective partners including particular castes, just cant force them to pay dowry (legally); though we all know dowry happens in practice.

also, denomination = sub-caste.

Also, why doesn't this stuff concern non indians?

Perhaps it does, and that's why there are so many divorces in some countries. Who knows?

"He chose the banana tree because it was a South Indian species of banana which is no longer than four inches, so as to cause the minimum discomfort to its bride at the time of consummation. "

Errr...is this symbolic or...

Arguably this particular superstition is based on the organised part of Hinduism, since it's pandits who are supposed to do your horoscope and then do your de-manglikification....I'd laugh off the ritual myself, if I had to do it - but clearly someone in that bunch(Bachchans, Ash or her clan) takes it seriously, which is why they are doing it, no?

No part of hinduism is organized. There is no Indian Association of Pandits nor is there a regulatory body of any sort. At the most you have really large temples but even those are miniscule by international standards in terms of money and clout.

The vedas have something called jyotish which is astronomy and not astrology and deals solely with the calculation of planetary movements. This knowledge was used to determine the best time to do rituals and how to position their temples etc. It *never* had any predictive application. Current "vedic" astrology is based on something called the Surya Siddhanta which is a hindu version of Greek astrology and dates back to BC and because of its antiquity seems a part of the original package. If you notice the zodiac signs have the same names in both eastern/western traditions. But the names of the planets, the galaxy etc. which came from the original vedic texts are named entirely differently. Of course the hindus took to the predictive mumbo jumbo with the utmost zest and have only themselves to blame. But since we do not call predictive astrology a part of Christianity even though it is widely used by xtians, we must apply the same standard and not regard it as hinduism.

Back in the days, girl applicants had to pay more for match-makers' services. That shit still goes on? I am referring to the "personal touch" school of pro match-makers.

Let him who's never checked his weekly astrological forecast cast the fist stone.

Since we're discussing marrying trees, let him who never married a tree cast the first stone.

This isn't a setback for Feminism, it's a setback for Arborism. How many remember Arbor's day? Exactly. So they replenish C02 with O2 all day long, keep us alive, and now these trees are responsible for fending off bad marriages (celebrity ones at that) too?

Seriously though, to me it shows the ingrained status the marriage-astrology complex has in Indian society, that even people with so much power and a combined income of a bajillion gazillion dollars must succumb to it. In India, the fundamental unit of society isn't the individual (no matter how many multinational IT companies set up shop in Bangalore) it's the couple.

Thanks for the insight Divya.

Also, which branch of "hinduism" requires a "belief in predictive astrology" as a foundational tenent of conversion into the faith (diksha - initiation)? None.

Let him who's never checked his weekly astrological forecast cast the fist stone. Since we're discussing marrying trees, let him who never married a tree cast the first stone.

Oh its all connected my friend. Astrology is the reason behind the tree ceremony.

Arguably this particular superstition is based on the organised part of Hinduism, since it's pandits who are supposed to do your horoscope

Not all astrology is done by brahmins, in Tamil Nadu there is a community of Nadi astrologers known as Valluvars who do both jyotish and siddha medicine - they are scheduled castes, and are fierce-proud of their traditions.

Stand in line...I am ready to throw the stone! I don't check my horoscope (western or otherwise) and sure as hell didn't marry a tree. The splinters...ouch!

Does anyone know anyone who did these things and still had bad luck?

Hinduism is interesting. On one hand you have astrology and tree marrying and on the other, you have karma. My maternal uncle was considered manglik and yet, he passed away during a car crash while his wife survived. My mom's side is SUPER superstitious so I am sure that all necessary precautions were taken.

suede:

Heck, if a woman can marry a tree, urn or a snake (another story), then people should stfu when 2 women decide to marry each other or two men do so.
Its not just double standards, but kinda mocking the life of a gay couple when you tell them that they're below the level of urns,trees and snakes.

A excellent point that has been ignored in the discussion...

Heck, if a woman can marry a tree, urn or a snake (another story), then people should stfu when 2 women decide to marry each other or two men do so. Its not just double standards, but kinda mocking the life of a gay couple when you tell them that they're below the level of urns,trees and snakes.

A excellent point that has been ignored in the discussion...

This is the thing though, for arguments sake...if homosexual life isn't even recognized in a traditional Indian setting should a gay couple show more concern at the fact that they are below the level of urns/trees/snakes? I see the validity of your argument but not sure if in the context it works.

Hinduism is interesting. On one hand you have astrology and tree marrying and on the other, you have karma.

Well its a religion, what do you expect. Though I personally can't see the problem with a ritual marrying a tree. I mean, there are much worse things done in the name of religion: I just can't get worked up over this one. Maybe its cos my parents are not into astrology and stuff, I don't know about the problems it creates.

I'm actually kind of confused by this. So Manglik means that the bride is likely to get married again, i.e. that she'll either get divorced or widowed, right?

Why is that so surprising or bad? I think every female in my parents generation or my grandparents generation outlived their mate. Women tend to live longer than men do, and men tend to marry younger women, so if you combine those two factors, you would expect most women to get widowed, right?

I guess I'm selfish. I'd rather outlast my wife than the other way around. And if she wants to get married after I'm gone, then more power to her. At that point, I'm gone, so I could hardly be offended.

I really don't see what the problem is, but then the first I ever heard of this whole thing was w.r.t Aish. I've never encountered it IRL before ...

Divya - fair enough. Since Hinduism doesn't have foundational tenets per se, predictive astrology can't really be tied to it; but as a lived, practised religion today (and we're big on orthopraxy) it's the jyotishes and pandits who tell you what day to get married on, and that sort of thing, so I think for a lot of Hindus predictive astrology is effectively tied to the religious hierarchy. I'd be surprised, for example, if Aishwarya figured out the tree thing herself and knew what mantras to say. At the end of the day, though, it is sad when this is what passes for religion.

As for the clout of religious establishments, they ain't centralised, but the Tirupati temple and some of the bigger maths are huuuuuge and Tirupati is really wealthy. But that's a side point.

Ennis - manglik brides are usually associated with "bad luck" for a non-Manglik husband, i.e. he'll die first. Two mangliks marrying each other - no problem.

Ennis Manglik in a gist actually means that if the girl were Manglik she would be the CAUSE of her husbands UNTIMELY death and not the natural course of life you mentioned.